Which Projector Is "Better"? | Epson LS12000 vs. JVC NX7 | What I'm Keeping & Why

[@jvonengeln]

Modern Gaming is better on the Epson LS12000 than my JVC NZ7. I have both. The JVC must turn off laser dimming and dynamic tone mapping to enter low latency mode. The NP5 has the same problem. Your NX7 let’s you keep dynamic iris and dynamic tone mapping in low latency mode. For gamers that’s a BIG loss for JVC 2021 models. (Lasers and NP5). If you don’t use low latency mode on the new JVCs it’s like 150ms of lag which is unacceptable. If you use e-shift on the new JVC NZ7 there is horrible ghosting/multiple images on fast moving games. It’s bad. So for JVC gaming you gotta turn of everything that makes the image nice to enjoy gaming. The Epson LS12000 has low latency with no noticeable lag with everything on. AND the Epson has no bright corners, a picture that pops more. Now for movies I prefer the JVC NZ7, with all those image quality feature turned on that increase the display lag for many of the reasons you stated. However, you can find settings on the Epson that are more tinker free. I currently have the Epson LS12000 from MWAVE, and my NZ7 was the one used at MWAVE. They trade blows IMO. Epson is brighter, pops more, and JVC handles dark content better. I watched Luck on Apple TV Streaming two nights ago with my kids on the JVC. Last night we watched the first 10 minutes again on the JVC to refresh our memory. Then I took it down and hung the Epson LS12000 and we watched the first 30 minutes of Luck again and skipped around in the movie to watch some favorite scenes. I asked which projector my two oldest daughters liked better between the images. My 13 year old daughter said the Epson. I asked why. She said it was sharper and brighter and had better colors. I asked my 10 year old daughter which she liked better. She said they both were good and unless they are side by side she didn’t think she could tell the difference. For my part I enjoyed Luck more on the Epson. I plan to make a post on AVS with more details, and a KZbin video as well taking through our families thoughts.

[@Techthusiasm]

Great post! Thanks for sharing, especially on the gaming side. For a variety of a reasons, despite the bigger screen and surround sound, I find my gaming generally focused toward my living room on the LG G2 and my theater much more focused towards movies and certain TV shows, which certainly informs my opinions and selections. Was Luck a good movie? Apple seems to be trying to step up to Pixar level.

[@jvonengeln]

@@Techthusiasm Luck didn’t quite hit Disney Pixar level to me, but it was still enjoyable and my family liked it.

[@Techthusiasm]

Cool. I have kids similar ages as you so we will probably check it out.

[@georgepopescu1327]

you can't ask a 13 years old to appreciate the black levels in dark movies, at that age colrofull content is much more appealing

[@jvonengeln]

@@georgepopescu1327 it’s more appealing to me at 43 years old too. They both have notable strengths.

[@D1Calderon]

What type of screen do you have and do you recommend a specific type of screen type with the JVC? I’m planning on purchasing an NX9

[@Techthusiasm]

I have a Seymour AV 163" scope AT Center Stage XD. I really like this screen. I don't think choosing the screen matters as much with regards to the projector as much as it matters to the room itself. You just need to make sure the projector can fully light up the screen space, for which an NX9 is going to be very bright. If you want to help out the channel, please consider going through one of my affiliates for your projector (although for the NX9 you are probably buying used now) or reach out to me directly for any referrals. Thanks!

[@D1Calderon]

I appreciate your input and your videos. Thank you

[@rx7dude2006]

Trying to decide weather to go with the NX7 or the laser NZ7.I have the NX5 now and love it but wanted a little more brightness and contrast.

[@Techthusiasm]

I'd do NZ7, IMO, having an NX7. They are fairly equitable, but I think overall the NZ offers more features I would prefer to have. If you need help sourcing one, let me know.

[@hatoraidcowboy]

The new Epson Laser projectors can be color calibrated via Calman calibration software, and supports HDR 10+ so you should get pretty good tone mapping. Only downside to HDR 10+ is it doesn't support 12 bit color like Dolby Vision. Throw in a HD Fury product into the chain and you should have a pretty darn good HDR experience with the Epson. But there is also added costs so its a two edge sword.

[@Techthusiasm]

I kind of mix the concept of tone mapping (which really should imply static) and dynamic frame adaptive HDR in my talking. I'll make sure to fix that for next time. It's dynamic HDR that makes all the difference, which the Epson doesn't do.

[@percybedford6266]

@Hatoraid Cowboy Cinema how do you think the HD Fury will match with the new Sony 5000es?

[@hatoraidcowboy]

@@percybedford6266 Oh man with a 5000! Lumens output an HD Fury Diva should give you an OUTSTANDING Dolby Vision (LLDV) experience. I’d like to see someone pair them together. Might blind you LOL

[@percybedford6266]

@@hatoraidcowboy yeah I think so. I wouldn't be surprised if Sony comes up with a firmware update to help with dynamic tone mapping.

[@hatoraidcowboy]

@@percybedford6266 I’m going to CEDIA so hopefully I can check it out and ask some questions.

[@kingjj6000]

Quick question, how much is a replacement bulb for jvc and at what point would you start to see the bulb dimming hours wise?

[@Techthusiasm]

Hmm, I’m not sure. I got my extra bulb for free as a preorder bonus with the unit. I want to say they are a few hundred dollars. I’m at 1,000 hours and won’t be replacing any time soon. I’ve heard of folks still going fine at 2,000 or even 2,500 hours. I might replace somewhere in there if I get that far having this unit.

[@keepingupwiththejones2933]

JVC bulb sells for anywhere from $400 to $800. Good price is around $500. Lasts about 2000 hours for most users.

[@SealedOrPorted]

@@keepingupwiththejones2933 correct, and I would say longevity has variables like: projector model, use type as in long viewing times or intermittent (2-3 hours). I am on my 3rd bulb where the factory installed bulb lasted under 2,500 hours and the replacement provided 3,200* hours. It is noteworthy that usage near *3,000 hours provides terrible returns in color and contrast. I have owned and used this projector (JVC RS-55) for 10 years in a dedicated room. Bulb prices will most likely increase substantially as demand declines due to laser projectors IMO.

[@GunnyPhillips]

I'm a longtime Epson owner and, like you wanted to get into the native 4K and laser space. I saw a LS12000 on display a couple of days ago and really wanted to like it. The image is fine to me and I was willing to accept the continued use of pixel shifting. What I wasn't willing to accept is the lack of 3D and no DTM solution. If you're seriously ready to replace your NX7 I'd take a look at the new NZ7. I have one on order. I hear it improves the HDMI handshaking issues JVC is known for but you'd be sacrificing some contrast compared to the NX.

[@Techthusiasm]

Yes, the NZ will ultimately be the replacement for my NX or whatever next model comes after the NZ if I wait long enough. I agree 100%. I'm hoping to step up to the NZ9 level on my next projector too, but we will see. The NX7 is still so good.

[@anmolkapoor9595]

How much of upgrade would ls12000b would be against Epson hc3800/tw7100?

[@Techthusiasm]

Laser, HDMI 2.1, better specs, and more but 3x the price for MSRP. I'd consider it a pretty big upgrade if you have the cash, but I have not personally experienced the HC3800.

[@anmolkapoor9595]

@@Techthusiasm will ls12000b be better than imax movie theatres?

[@Techthusiasm]

Better than a theater experience depends on your room. I prefer mine to the theater. :)

[@anmolkapoor9595]

@@Techthusiasm audio is hep. Just asking about the video quailty of this epson vs imax laser theatre?

[@Techthusiasm]

Projector to projector those are in two completely different leagues used for very different environments and specific use cases.

[@DIGGERS881]

What difference did you see in the calibrated NX7? Thanks😀 Do you use high lamp? Thanks for another enjoyable video. 👍

[@DIGGERS881]

I agree with you on native 4K. I would always wonder what I’m missing with a faux 4K projector.

[@Techthusiasm]

I had been using high for HDR and low for SDR, but right now I'm just running everything on high as my bulb is crossing over 1,000 hours. In my opinion, the NX7 really surpasses the Epson in mostly everything, except its brighter. My JVC looks improved since having the auto cal run as well. Color is better and more accurate. Thanks!

[@Krbasshead]

I have an NX7 and I’m building my screen soon. My concern is the NX7 is not going to light up a 160” screen like the Epson will and have considered maybe making that switch. The NZ7 is too much currently. As a side note I do have a HTPC that I purchased a capture card for that will run madvr so I won’t be using JVCs tone mapping.

[@Techthusiasm]

I had multiple guys from AVS Forum over to see the Epson vs. the NX7 on my 163" scope screen. My NX bulb is at about half life. The Epson looked brighter in some scenes, but no one preferred it over the NX.

[@Krbasshead]

​@@Techthusiasm Interesting. I am looking at a Cinema white microperf by Severtson which tested on the forums is about a 1.12 gain. Maybe I will be ok. The one thing I am doing it using my gaming PC as a madvr with a capture card. So the NX7 tone mapping wont be used, this was where my dilema came from, I just felt like the epson would be the true winner with a madvr on a screen that large.

[@Techthusiasm]

Sounds like the Epson is a better contender for you. My main use case is movies.

[@John-ok8ts]

Did you consider running the Epson with a HDFury? For Dolby Vision content it seems like it would do the job you want for relatively little money. While this doesn't cover all HDR content it does cover what seems like the vast majority of use cases especially for new content on Apple TV plus it isn't an artificial algorithm i.e. It is what the creator intended.

[@Techthusiasm]

I haven't. The HD Fury for tone mapping is something I recently learned about and am curious to look into. I think I would still generally prefer to keep my JVC though vs. stepping down to the Epson in other areas, but I'm curious to see the Fury. I know some local AVS enthusiast friends have or use one.

[@John-ok8ts]

@@Techthusiasm Yea I haven't bought one yet as I have just got my Epson setup. I will let you know what I think but even with the JVC you may prefer it as it should be closer to the original creators intent.

[@John-ok8ts]

I bought the $30 splitter that does the same job. Works great. I would love to try a JVC because ultimately native contrast still matters but my blacks are now pretty much what my room's black floor is so I'm not sure how much better it could get but I would love to see a JVC.

[@jpeterstme]

Thank you for putting out this informative content as I too am looking to get my first projector and trying to find the sweet spot for performance vs cost. I’d be interested in your opinion of np5 vs ls12000. Would you say the np5 is a nx7 with hdmi 2.1 or something else is missing from its feature set.?

[@Techthusiasm]

My pleasure! Glad it was helpful. The NP5 and the NX7 are pretty similar, but the NX7 does have the color filter, is higher rated contrast, and such. They are rated same brightness. NP5 adds the HDMI 2.1 of course. If I were you and wasn't getting into the NZ series, I would happily buy an NP5 as my preferred choice.

[@jvonengeln]

NP5 has the same limitations for gaming as the NZ7, NZ8, NZ9, this confirmed by Chris Deutsch of JVC. That limitation is to enjoy low latency mode, you have to turn off dynamic tone mapping and laser dimming. That’s a deal breaker for my excitement about the HDMI 2.1 for me. Hopefully JVC fixes this in a future firmware. Right now the Epson LS12000 is a significantly better experience for gaming. I have both, see my other post.

[@percybedford6266]

Great video. I wonder if Epson will release some kind of firmware update to help with dynamic tone mapping? I know the HD Fury is out there, I haven't seen one in action though.

[@Techthusiasm]

I don’t expect the Epson to get true dynamic frame by frame HDR, but we will see!

[@percybedford6266]

@@Techthusiasm yeah probably not. It may take them out of the price point they want to stay in.

[@georgepopescu1327]

HD fury has nothing to do with dynamic tonemapping, the only thing it allows you to do is to use Dolby Vision content on your projector and DV is already pretonemapped so the display doesn't need to guess anymore but don't expect miracles as DV content is mapped for TV's which are way brighter than projectors so personally I would still try to deal with HDR which is more friendly with projector's light output

[@Techthusiasm]

Thanks for the clarification on the Fury. That's not of much use to me then as I use K generally which is HDR10. Better for folks streaming in DV though I guess.

[@georgepopescu1327]

@@Techthusiasm yes, HD fury is used for streaming and for older projectors that are not HDCP 2.2 ready

[@CatDieselPwr]

In Canada on the Eastporters website the NX7 is $3500.00 more than the LS12000. Not a totally fair comparison really. That is one whole Epson 5050ub more in price. But yeah I would lean more towards a Sony 325 or JVC native 4K probably but in reality the LS12000 is still a pretty kicka$$ device for the money.

[@brandonfoster5776]

Thought the same thing, not really a fair comparison. Of course Jvc would win this.

[@techcode_man]

nice comparison! I just bought a NX7 to replace my epson 5050.

[@Techthusiasm]

Enjoy!

[@billhayes5047]

Hd fury 2 is great to add and at reasonable prices. I keep being surprised what people are putting the 12000b up against. To me this is the replacement for the 9400, the jvc replacements and the new jvc laser ones ?

[@Techthusiasm]

I need to check in on HD Fury and see what tone mapping they have, thanks for the suggestion. I put the LS up against the NX7 because I have and own the NX7 so it's my direct comparison. I think it's still fair, given a used NX7 matches up with a new LS in price.

[@billhayes5047]

@@Techthusiasm love the channel, fair enough point about second hand v new epson.

[@Techthusiasm]

Thanks! Let me know what kind of topics and content you'd like to see on the channel.

[@Renrondog]

@@Techthusiasm Not sure I agree with the second hand price comparison point. In cars it would be like comparing a used Mercedes vs a new Kia. New the NX7 was $4000 more than the LS12000. It's NOT apples to apples.

[@MyFatherLoves]

What would be interesting to me would be the LS12000 paired with the new MadVR Core. That price point still beats the JVC but you get the frame-by-frame MadVR tone mapping. So, now you have the same tech in both setups but still come in way under the JVC. I get that the MadVR core wasn't available during this video but it's something interesting to consider. Game performance on the LS12000 with the option to use tone-mapping for movies and tv.

[@Bryan-rl2ik]

I was excited for the LS12000 as I have an Epson 5040 so it should be quite and upgrade. So far my biggest upgrades have been real blackout blinds and new gray screen. Once I have the means I think the next projector for me will be either JVC or the new Sony's

[@Techthusiasm]

Yeah, I think you'd find the LS12000 to be really nice from a 5040 being two generations of upgrade and a whole new technology with the laser and features. The room makes all the difference and can make a video system look better and an audio system sound better with sometimes more influence than the gear itself.

[@Bryan-rl2ik]

@@Techthusiasm if I was forced to upgrade I would certainly have the JVC and new Sony on my list over the Epson because the blacks look so much better

[@sdeb82]

I just got my LS12000 yesterday and I’m floored by it - though I’m upgrading from a Benq 2050a (possibly the best 1080p projector under $1K ) - The clarity, blacks, colors are unparalleled at this price point - the motorized lens shift, focus and zoom is a chef’s kiss That being said - I feel like when you review the Epson against a premium JVC projector like the NX7 - it’s like comparing an Audi to a Rolls Royce - I’m an Audi guy myself so the Epson is a perfect product for me 👍

[@Techthusiasm]

The Epson is great and a lot of projector for $5,000. I disagree a little on the comparison though. Comparing the Epson to a JVC NZ8 would be unfair. The NX7 though is last generation and available used for less than the price of an Epson, so it’s a viable match-up in terms of actual procurement cost right now. Plus, it’s what I have to compare. It’s my personal unit and I had the opportunity to get the Epson as a demo.

[@keifferbuggs6466]

Great summary. I've got an older JVC DLA-RS600 that does 4k e-shift. I've been considering upgrading but the image I have looks pretty good. It just doesn't do HDR very well and I think I'm missing out. I like the price of the Epson, it's general specs, and it's brightness but to your point, it's still an e-shift projector which I already have. Think my best option may be to wait for a price reduction next year on the JVC lasers or get a slightly used one. I can spend up to $7500 but I do want to get it all when I do (I'm retired but not dead). A laser projector, 2000+ lumens, HDR10, HDR10+, I don't need any gaming specs. I've got a McIntosh MX122 Processor with HDMI 2.0 / HDCP 2.2 and don't want to upgrade it. I mainly use the latest Apple TV 4K and an Opponent UDP 203 for 4k movies. Could get the HDFury Vertex but not sure it's worth it. Anyway, just a great review and thanks for allowing me to think out loud. OF course, comments and thoughts are welcome.

[@Techthusiasm]

Yeah, I think if I were you, I would hold on and try to get into a NZ7.

[@AaronHamm-co7fm]

So I am looking between the JVC NP5 and the Epson LS12000. In this video you said stay with JVC because of HDR Tone mapping. So my question is this. I run a MadVR Videoprocessor and with that said would the Epson be the pick? I really want Laser but even with MadVR if the NP5 with HDMI 2.1 is better than that's what I will get. My biggest hangout is the price of the bulbs for the JVC.

[@Techthusiasm]

Having the madVR changes the calculus a bit for sure. It makes the Epson more viable. JVC will still have better black levels over the Epson and it is native 4K. Epson gives you laser, brighter, and such. Most folks feel the Epson is a better buy for gaming, if that matters to you. Can you hold out for a JVC NZ7? Save up another couple of months or maybe wait until CEDIA happens in a few weeks and see what news comes there.

[@j.r.r.2185]

Hi Jaremy, I sent a msg on your website this past Monday about you consulting me with media ripping and NAS systems. Did you get it? Thanks in advance. 🙂

[@Techthusiasm]

Yes, I need to catch up on a few contacts that have come in. I will try to do very soon. It's been busy and now traveling for the Audio Advice show.

[@j.r.r.2185]

@@Techthusiasm Thanks and no worries, just checking that it went through 🙂

[@boomerps2]

The JVC is definitely not "Miles Ahead". Latency is horrible on the JVC. I feel colors pop more and is brighter on the Epson. After disabling everything on the JVC to get a decent latency count, the Epson definitely looks better with 4K @ 120hz for gaming.

[@Techthusiasm]

I'm seeing more folks applaud the Epson LS12000 for gaming performance. It's well deserved, I expect!

[@scotttild]

I am a 4k purest but the Epson looks better IMO. Colors sheen truer then the native JVC

[@billhennigan3773]

Cant wait for the ..Benq HT4550i a 4 LED with lens shift...65 ti 4k chip, 3200 stated lumens with wcg filter which lowers lumens, but in my mancave will look fantastic for $2700.00...

[@Techthusiasm]

New projectors are always fun to see! I wonder if we'll get new JVCs this year at CEDIA or maybe next year.

[@gjhunter9326]

Love your content and honesty brother, keep it up! Bottom line of what I took away from this video is that you prefer tone mapping and, I always have to laugh, native 4k over pixel shifting even though you admit is essentially in your head. The price difference is too real though for some of us, especially those who's neurotransmitters are stimulated by relative value, i.s. knowing that they bought something we feel is just as good for significantly less (vs paying more for something that is theoretically better). There's no right or wrong, just different means to satisfaction. I imagine some viewers watching are considering an initial purchase, so you might comment from that standpoint. You also mention at the end that native 4k projector prices should come down in the future. I hope you are right but I'm not holding my breath because they haven't budget a penny yet. It's frustrating that, for projector enthusiasts like us, 4k has been around for an eternity now, in industry terms, yet you still can't touch a native 4k for under 5g. Rather than give us a lower priced entry level model, they just keep upgrading and adding features like HDMI 2.1, tone mapping, laser light sources, etc. but at the same or higher price points. They won't give us a budget friendlier native 4k mode so I have to wonder if it is out fear of robbing sales of their higher priced offerings. You would think, with the newer models from JVC and Sony for example, they could easily sell the old models at 2-4g and probably crush the pixel shifters in the marketplace because people "think" they are better. But, as it stands, to me a bulb based 4k pixel shifter, with excellent contrast and black levels as well as arguably better zoom functionality like the Epsons, are still the sweet spot in projection right now. No need for the pixel shifters to make a native 4k because those manufacturers are content with keeping prices artificially high. Maybe, just maybe, when 8k is a viable thing, 4k projectors will come down.

[@Techthusiasm]

Thanks! "True" 4k and tone mapping, yes and yes! I get for sure that budgets matter and honestly no one should feel they settled for an LS12000. It's a really nice projector and huge value under $5,000 for what you get and the performance it delivers.

[@avtechman77]

You should put the NX7 up against either the Sony 715ES or the new 6000ES

[@Techthusiasm]

I'd love to try out a new Sony in my room too and shoot it off a bit with JVC. We'll see.

[@toddroy9558]

I hope it would be, the jvc is double the money!!

[@Techthusiasm]

Well, original MSRP was 2x, yes, but in current street price, these are equitable now.

[@toddroy9558]

The JVC nx7 on Amazon is $9500 And the Epson LS12000 is $5000 That is not equitable!!

[@Techthusiasm]

No one would pay old MSRP for an NX7. It’s an end of life unit. That’s just a gouge on Amazon and would be a terrible mistake to buy. Regular used market pricing puts these models on equitable footing now.

[@toddroy9558]

You can’t find the JVC for $5000

[@Techthusiasm]

Try the AVS Forum classifieds.

[@myhomeaudio8751]

Hello jaremy, When I listen to your opinions I literally get a thought to go with High-end, but my pockets don’t let me. 😂

[@Techthusiasm]

LOL, you’ll get there. This is a hobby to enjoy in stages over a period of time. Add to your system bit by bit here and there.

[@kman9387]

Why not consider the Sony VPL-XW5000ES? It's crazy good!

[@Techthusiasm]

Sony makes good projectors too. This video was based on a face-off of projectors that I actually had on hand to compare in my room.

[@kman9387]

@@Techthusiasm since this video has been a minute, have you changed your projector yet? I can say for sure that the new Sony is insane good. I got mine open box with original warranty because the seller is listed on Sony's site of approved sellers. I got it at almost half the price of the ls1200.

[@Techthusiasm]

I am still using my JVC, the NX7. I just recently changed my bulb and am still very much enjoying the projector. I'm not sure what will be next for me, but we'll see. I would, by default, likely stick with JVC coming up again. I'd love an NZ9 or whatever future model replaces it.

[@trenthegelheimer127]

Great video however the JVC is double the cost of the Epson.

[@Techthusiasm]

True, from an original MSRP perspective. You can buy a used NX7 now though in the ballpark of an LS12000.

[@trenthegelheimer127]

@@Techthusiasm the Epson LS11000 has provided nearly the same performance during testing as the LS12000 and is only $3,000. Of the three most people will probably find the LS11000 the best value.

[@Rob_James]

Agree with the fact that the nx7 takes forever to switch modes with the black screen It’s annoying lol

[@Techthusiasm]

I plan to ask the JVC folks about it here at Audio Advice Live.

[@Rob_James]

@@Techthusiasm a fix would be amazing. Totally not gonna hold my breath tho

[@JLRJ]

Can’t add to the Projector conversation but I can add to the viewer’s count!👴🏽

[@Techthusiasm]

Everyone need a Julius in their life. 👏😄

[@JLRJ]

@@Techthusiasm LOL! I try!!😁

[@mfkhometheater7742]

It's good to hear your thoughts on these projectors. Back when I was first looking at projectors I was looking an the NX7 but for a time considered the Epson 6050 to reduce cost. The NZ line came out before I made a decision and I ended up throwing budget to the wind and got the NZ8. Hearing that the NX7 beats even the new Epson laser tells me I should never need to regret stepping up to the JVC. Hopefully one of these days I'll actually have enough time at home to install it and get it set up... hopefully before it is obsolete. Actually, after this current trip to Germany, I'm going to push work to give me at least a week, maybe two at home so I can make some progress on the theater. It would be nice to finally get an image on the screen!

[@Techthusiasm]

I think you'll be extremely happy with the NZ8 purchase, congrats! And good luck getting time to get the project moving. Time is precious, for sure, and none of us have enough of it. :)

[@pedroluciano2643]

I admire a guy who sticks to his guns.

[@kjgraves22]

I had been waiting to see the LS12000 in person for months and was planning on replacing my 6050UB, but then watching the demo at Star-Power, I couldn't really tell that much difference between the two projectors. I ended up going with the JVC NP5...wow what a difference in the HDR black levels! This thing runs circles around the LS12000. Also, I've always been disappointed with 3D on my previous Epsons. I've had the 5030, 5040 and finally the 6050 and the cross-talk was terrible, I just figured it was a thing with 3D projectors. Boy was I wrong...I didn't know what I've been missing until I plopped in Avatar on the NP5. Holy cow, amazing! Best purchase I've made in a long time!

[@Techthusiasm]

Awesome! NP5 is a great option, IMO.

[@m3tro214]

Thanks for the info

[@Techthusiasm]

My pleasure! Thanks for watching!

[@hometheaterfever5]

Dudee!!! You’re just NAILED IT😂😅. Couldn’t agree more with everything you said.

[@Techthusiasm]

Glad you enjoyed!