Who Is REALLY Topping DPS In Ulduar? | Wrath Classic

[@WillEmmo]

Thanks to HelloFresh for sponsoring today's video. Go to strms.net/WilleHelloFreshMarchYT and use code POGWILLEMAR60 for 60% off plus free shipping!

[@roujin518]

I think cat is a little low on your list. They are looking low as they are one of those classes that is HIGHLY dependent on gear, especially needing a good weapon. But they do have crippling issues like always needing to stay on the boss, terrible AoE/Cleave, and poor scaling with haste. So the top end of feral is way higher than the bottom. Fury seems kinda high, Its really bad. It doesn't provide any buffs really and outside of cleave fights its just not there. Its basically a worse version of cat as cat only suffers when it has to deal with multiple targets and Fury ONLY gets to be good when dealing with multiple targets.

[@kimizor8193]

that's a shit sponsorship, damn, unsub and cancel you now !

[@seppwurzel8212]

giggled when mage became a tier instead of s because of hodir, while hodir wasn't relevant for any other caster. owl down because of starfall was also a good one. you could make such strawman arguments for locks as well because mechanics favor them and life tap is obvioulsy an OP ability, but you don't.

[@bartekw2344]

I like how you not even mentioned BM hunter spec and then all of the sudden while talking about druid specs, there it is at the bottom tier :D

[@xcloud14]

Part of the reason we're not seeing any MM hunters over survival, is that on pservers, which we based most of the class data from had much lower lock n' load procs and no 434 explosive shot. Makes such a big difference in damage.

[@StillGamingMaybeLatr]

I think right now we're at the point where you can find a tossup on who's doing top 5 dps in your average pug, which is great. A good feral will outdps a bad affli, in most encounters. Obviously in situations where all player skill/gear is equal, you'll see a wave of purple, red, and yellow flooding the top of the meters, but I think the gap between specs is no longer insurmountable for players playing the "bad" specs.

[@Than211]

For the most part, the balance of each class/spec is pretty good this phase, save for DK's and affliction warlocks who tend to be outliers. The rest of the tier list is really just splitting hairs with warriors and ret pallies being on the lower end; anyone else in the middle can be a coin flip on who is better after accounting for gear (because most people don't have their BIS) and skill.

[@pullt]

Go Go 'Locks!!!

[@Psilocybin77]

Stopped playing a while ago myself, but will watch every one of your videos.

[@heroofhyrule9778]

thank you for sharing

[@Psilocybin77]

@@heroofhyrule9778 wasn't talking to you Linkweeb. It's low IQ trash like you, why I quit WoW. You are an exemplary of the community.

[@DarthStuticus]

I've seen Elemental do crazy damage in 10 man with minimal raid support. When all buffs are available it doesn't cap as high, but its great for small groups of buddies that aren't forcing a specific raid comp to Minmax

[@karanojin]

agree, i dont feel like i scale in 25 at all on elemental but i have had some really good performances in 10s. considering how easy the spec is to play i get really consistently good performance and great utility, i actually like it a lot

[@BestBoricua]

Yea mostly every Raid I'm on that has an ele they are always top 5

[@paulullmann6359]

Agreed! Just did many 95+ parses on 10m hm and even topped a demo and affli in overall damage. But in 25’s I’m mostly in spot 4-7overall dps.

[@roujin518]

This probably because 10s have shorter fights making fire ele have a bigger net gain. Also on 10s everyone is less likely to get 100% raid buffs, but ele provides most buffs they already need. Add an unholy or boomy to a 10 with elem sham and they have all the buffs.

[@cruros9084]

We have an ele shaman in our raid that consistently does massive dps, far above what I'd expect from the average elemental shaman. So with the right player, it is extremely good.

[@rzslo9084]

Completely agree that classes are well balanced at the moment, pure dps classes are supposed to be at the top of dmg meters not providing a lot of utility in return. While utility classes are not that far behind they still bring a lot to the raid where you cant really drop them no matter what.

[@nisx2012]

wish that applied to retail too...

[@lief3414]

Ulduar is also a lot more about utility than Naxx so if you aren't pumping super hard you can still be crucial in other ways. Paladin utility is too much tho, does the best+easiest tank and heal really need to be the best util class by miles too?

[@osirasjp]

Playing warrior and this is not true :) they just fucked up the class. If you try to find decent raid, then good luck since you will hear only "Tank Pally or DK pref", "Rogue or DK as melee" with ret having guaranteed spot. And the itemization is just a joke for 3/4 phases ... and the only reason why blizz just don't care is "oh but wait in ICC.." just pure stupidity

[@icebox1954]

​@@lief3414 Yes, yes they do. Pala Holy is also the one getting the legenday and is also the best healer in PvP along with PvE. You know, multi-track flexing is a must.

[@F14thunderhawk]

@@nisx2012 new classes are always completely busted with the exception of Monk

[@SlurpyBoi.0529]

I started off this xpac as a Feral, really enjoying the rotation as it was complex and to play it well was kind of rewarding. But as the xpac went on in P1, meters not showing me for how well I was playing started to take it's toll. I swapped to Balance because of just being able to contribute more on Trash and Boss Fights with much less effort and even less gear competition for leather caster pieces. I am scared Feral will not scale at all as expected going into ICC. Omen of Clarity just feels too RnG to have meaningful impact on the spec and bleeds already ignore armor so ArP scaling isn't as heavy as other melee. Not to mention having to always be behind your target for your best DPS doesn't translate into a good playstyle for some fights. I have a small bit of hope that Blizz does something for them like they did for Ret's, but I am definitely not holding my breath. Feral forever being a C tier DPS just feels kind of bad.

[@ryannags5989]

I am starting to feel that way as someone who takes feral very serious. It has me thinking of switching to my Enhance or Survival Hunt or Hpriest. We can see from top ferals with gear that the ARP is not going to scale like we thought. I cant see how it changes in ICC at all.

[@Hrtyv]

feral is performing disapointingly horrible - the amount of effort input and watching the shit output is taking its toll for me also

[@Kirisage]

balance > cat the entire expansion except early early wotlk....

[@Milk-rn5uq]

great ferals will still top meters. See Rugsxd for example. I’m back on feral from fdk for comp reasons and it’s definitely not as strong, but still good - one of the best openers easily.

[@Hrtyv]

@@Milk-rn5uq youre kidding right ? Just because he is top dmg on a fight dosent mean feral does good overall. In fact the classes he beat are just underperforming players and it makes him look better than it is. Ferals are close to get outperformed by BM hunters and Frost mages soon

[@vikter3077]

Watching WillE is the closest I can get to playing WoW. In between work and going to the gym I simply can't find the time to play anymore. Especially because I used to be addicted and used WoW as an escape from reality. Anyways thanks for your high quality content Will, hope you keep on crushing it whatever the future holds.

[@mcfarvo]

Same! I don't play vidja games anymore, but gym is a better hobby for sure. A new PR on a big lift like deads or bench or weighted pull-ups or whatever feels better than new purple pixels.

[@heroofhyrule9778]

i dont know what compelled you to share your life story about how superiors you are to us lowly wow degens, but it brought a tear to my eye, thank you for this

[@1984Variant]

@@heroofhyrule9778 life story? Dude was born playing wow I guess haha

[@vikter3077]

​@@heroofhyrule9778man I wrote my thesis about this game and was the biggest degen all around, all Classes maxed to 80 and running a casual raiding guild. I didn't mean to write anyone still playing WoW off as degenerate, I'm just slightly sad that I can't play anymore

[@WillyDee123]

@Vikter it's all good brother, you hit something deep within him that he knows is true, if every person playing wow was really honest, we are all addicted to it and are wasting our adulthood playing it because we are too scared to face reality

[@michaelac7320]

Haven’t played since P1 but hearing the Storm Peaks music at the end and watching willE.. i feel the pull

[@BomboclatReze]

I’m so frustrated that blizzard buffed rets for some reason and completely ignored feral. I struggle to get in ulduar 10 pugs, although I have 5k gs, people would rather want any other class with naxx gear than me. And like to make it to top 5 of the meters I must do some crazy shit like bearweave and not letting my lacerate stacks drop/idolweave/flowershift. Like feral right now has the most stupid design with shit like 5 combo point not crit ferocious bite do around 6-8k dmg and pulling aggro because of bearform. Hope that feral will receive some changes too, cuz I’m just tired feeling like a piano player while asa rogue with rotation like 1-1-2-1-1-2 do much better than me.

[@herbythechef7624]

Our feral fits really nicely into our 10 man. But we run frost dk, unholy dk, and enhance sham. So i appreciate the crit buff big time and he just goes bear for some fights and for some trash. Makes for a strong melee heavy group in 10 man

[@zdubzz1280]

Shout out to all my trap weaving hunter brethren. We are doing better than expected and I’m happy with it.

[@crawling991]

hunters kekw

[@Prediculous]

Buddy. You're a 60 parse at besy

[@ashtray510]

Huntards

[@andromidius]

Yeah we're pretty stronk on a lot of fights. Less so on others. But that's fine - we completely crush most cleave fights, and its not even close.

[@MambaaWoW]

I love being at the top when we aren’t supposed to be

[@tkzsfen]

I have never ever been in a raid in my entire life, yet I love these videos! I wish I was better to participate in them at one point.

[@SweetColouring]

just go for it man, naxx is really easy now and easy to get in as well! Good luck :) Won't ever learn how to raid if you don't dip your toes in.

[@herbythechef7624]

What do you do if you dont raid? Genuinely asking. I only play to raid anymore. No point in me logging on if im not

[@deefour28]

Honestly man, raiding is a lot easier than people make it out to be. If you’re able to do heroics relatively well you’d be fine in a raid, naxx is such a joke especially now with everyone’s better gear you’d really do fine if you have a basic understanding of your class and half of your brain

[@Kirisage]

@@herbythechef7624 probably pvping... i was a wow pvp player since 2005 up to like 5-6 years ago(ive took multiple long breaks) and now all i do is only log for raids xd

[@liam3104]

​@@Kirisage fair enough I'm the same but for the first commenter specifically if he is scared of raiding due to it being hard I doubt he's a pvper which is 10x harder than raiding especially in wrath.

[@Ballacha]

now 2 and half months later so much as changed. in my guild (25m average 5,000gs) we have 2 ferals topping dps meter in almost all the fights in uld (excluding the bosses with mechanics that benefits casters of course). then 2 frost dks (me included), a fury war, an assas rogue and fire mage contesting the remaining top dps spots. the blood dk offtank has decent (5045gs) unholy gear but usually he's nowhere to be found on dps meter when he's dpsing. and the same 7 people has been showing up on page 1 of the dps meter since we downed alg at week 8 and yogg 0 light at week 10. then starting from last week, i switched to blood dps (5081gs) for shits and giggles. i show up on dps meter as one of the top 7 for 3 or 4 boss fight still. moral of the story: play whatever you think is fun.

[@Croshiuz]

If ret gets a buff then feral and arms deserve one too, they are also the only 2 specs that bring the 30% bleed dmg debuff

[@lief3414]

Ret got the buff because it's the only dps spec for paladins.

[@Croshiuz]

@@lief3414 I mean same for the other two classes at this point

[@Croshiuz]

@@lief3414 with the latest info from WCL for all percentiles, rets are doing better than both the warrior specs. Also almost beating balance meaning they are almost beating both druid specs also. Don't forget ranged are also kinda inflated in Ulduar because of the mechanics

[@captenclown]

how to maek arms bit more gucci: get rid of the sword spec internal 6sec cd and - make it so that slam talent not only reduce slam cast time, but reoves the melee swign delay. they got rid of the melee swign reset yet made it, that if u cast slam, ur melee swingtimer pauses the 0,5 sec

[@omarlozano9374]

@@Croshiuz all percentiles defeats the purpose of this video. In the most recent logs, Fury Warriors are beating Rets in the 95th percentile for overall damage. This is relevant for this video, b/c the whole entire point of creating tier lists for different phases is to analyze how the gear in that phase will affect specs. It’s very simple to assume that the higher percentile parses are filled with players wearing higher ilv gear.

[@Killerwins88]

I stuck with my Warrior and having a blast!

[@martinjohansson7873]

It's gonna be exciting to see how the buff to the rets are gonna be later on in the expansion. I remember that in ICC rets did very good and with the latest buff they might actually be top A tier at least.

[@Snxgur]

ret still simming low high C low B tier in icc

[@Dudebro665]

>join new guild >play demonology >get gear given to you >switch to different guild >play affliction >repeat

[@hiadne8219]

As a Ret Paladin, I am pleased.

[@okamiseven]

playing Frost DPS/Frost OT DK and Assa/Combat Rogue and having a great time. both classes have good toolkits to deal with the varied mechanics, as well as solid dmg throughput. I'm becoming convinced that Feint is the sleeper OP ability in Ulduar- being able to halve all aoe damage is enormous for XT tantrums and tons of other mechanics

[@Greynth]

It’s not even a “sleeper” anymore. Running Feint glyph over tricks is the play for Ulduar.

[@TheOnlyGBeast]

I've been a big critic of the unholy DK morb spec for a while now, and I think it's hilarious that there are more logs for frost DK than unholy despite the latter being the higher DPS spec on average

[@trendkillcfh]

Unholy is a pain in the ass spec to manage with gargoyle and presence swapping. Frost is much easier rotation and similar dps- Unholy has a higher ceiling, but frost has a lower floor. So if i mess up Unholy and mismanage the gargoyle, my DPS suffers. You mismanage frost and DPS loss isn't nearly as bad. Frost is just much more forgiving overall.

[@TheOnlyGBeast]

@@trendkillcfh i just play scourge strike tbh, it's actually fun

[@travisolexa3074]

Feral really REALLY requires that armor pen soft cap (like marks hunter) to actually do DPS, which pretty much means full BiS. If you run sims for BiS compared to other classes in BiS, feral falls in the middle with most classes within 5% of 9500 DPS. Outliers being DKs, Assassin Rogues, and Warlocks blowing well past 10k. I still have hopes for Feral come ICC when 2pc increases laceration damage by 20% and 4pc allows rake to crit + armor pen cap will lead to a lot of damage with bearweaving.

[@panther6330]

Bro 20% increase on lacerate means we can not play without 1000 salvs. Its already horrible. My raid gives me a salv rotation from 3 paladins so that I do not pull threat.

[@just1randomdude]

ah yes I see that you're using the same amount of cope as myself

[@kkjjqrysdgadff7782]

Feral is dead.

[@TrafficLi9HT]

​@@panther6330 if you need 3 salvs then your tank is shit

[@bratwurst7308]

Softcap requiring almost full BiS? I have it with 4.6k and missing like 10+ items for BiS. In most raids i am pumping top 5 dps. Ferals problem in general is the skillcap, not the potential. Obviously and equally skilled s-tier class will always outdps feral, but else... We are in good shape.

[@GigachadVTuberEnjoyer]

J-j-just wait till icc, us furychads will show you DK bullies!

[@TastyScotch]

The HoR glyph was exactly what ret needed. And a pretty elegant solution tbh. Gain just enough dps to keep up in raid but not effect pvp at all.

[@stavey1123]

Destro never gets love man. Damage is great. There's no ramp up for low health stuff. It also gives replenishment. It's better than warrior and gives stam. It rounds out a 10man comp so well if you have a Demo. If you really really need to you take molten skin or nether for surviving mechanics.

[@barnachek]

Only thing it does better than war is aoe. Commanding gives more hp Cleave is better Duralibity is better Has interrupt Freya, Hodir and Vezzax is your instance. Everywhere else destro falls behind if you match two same skill/gear players.

[@minipaintingforyou]

I‘m always amazed how little these lists match with my own experience. I must assume that these rankings are only true for the top 1%. We have a ret in the raid, who constantly shows up on the top positions of the meter. We have mages topping the meter regularly and others unable to ever break out of the bottom 5. Player skill is far more important than any of these tools make it out to be, especially considering that so many things get filtered out - probably because they were abused by certain classes. I like very much, that you keep discussing the rankings rather then slapping down a list and be done with it. Thank you!

[@tamer666]

same, almost none of the dps tier lists ive seen since wotlk have started have matched my own experiences. I play demo lock and I top meters on most fights even though i have by far the lowest Ilvl and GS (my rolls suck and our guild don't funnel me gear as prio), our affli and frost dk are right on my heels and our ele shaman is up with them too, this is both on meters and logs. Just shows that with different people gearing at different levels and some classes having more basic rotations which help when some HM RNG shows up and throws a spanner in to your raid that almost all dps classes are viable and can fight for higher spots on the meters with a few exceptions ofc

[@barnachek]

If Ret is jumping over your casters on Hodir or Vezzax, there must be a huge skill gap between the players in your guild..

[@tuubi2783]

Tier lists usually assume optimal or close to optimal play

[@smooth_one]

WillE explains this a bit at 2:50 in the video. Let's say your Ret is parsing mostly 98s, which would put them at around 73 "points" on this graph's X axis. So if you follow that upwards, there are a LOT of specs with a LOT of percentiles that are getting less than 73 points. That's about equal to a 75th percentile Enhance, or a ~66th percentile Affliction Warlock, for example. So if the rest of your raid is all 50th percentile people or whatever, then yeah the Ret will top the meters. Tier lists need to compare classes "all else being equal," including player skill to minimize variables. Because you're right, player skill is more important than spec most of the time.

[@dudlecore7358]

12:27 im a feral now cause i wanted to relive my glory days .. guess ima have to wait for icc & 100% arp to change that to #1 again - not in UD already

[@CapnKrunk123]

WillE is high on crack rating fury so high. We're not judging on phase 4.. we're judging now.

[@danlorett2184]

But sCaLiNg lmao. We're the worst dps spec other than a) our OTHER dps spec and b) offmeta pure dps class specs (frost, BM, etc). And as for scaling... you're basically looking at it. The only slight advantage warriors had in scaling before ICC was hitting the soft arp cap and we're there. Our dps gains are pretty much the same or worse as other classes past this point. On top of that, not only is ret currently slightly better dps, but they bring sac, immunities, lay on hands, cleanse, freedom, judging light/wisdom, bringing replenishment, and they're one of your 3 pally buffs. Fury brings COMMANDING SHOUT and is worse dps and WillE thinks Fury is in the same tier as ret. Just laughable honestly.

[@CapnKrunk123]

@@danlorett2184 If he tried playing a Fury warrior for a week he would understand.

[@Scarletpimpanel73]

@@danlorett2184 They're all basing it off the top 99 percentile parses. They are seeing this as a one to one proxy measure for player skill. Except it isn't. RNG, and fight length play into this a lot - and they're not constants. Some classes benefit more from good rng than others. Fury is one of those that has high peak rng damage.

[@BolterBeast]

Blood with enough arp is actually quite viable! Not as good as the others, but definitely not frost mage bad either

[@MrIFucksWitIt]

😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@herbythechef7624]

One of these guys again lol

[@Middlerer]

Jfc lol

[@k9tirion927]

Can't wait to duel it out with our fury warrior as a fire mage in icc.

[@gmoddude12]

wait someone explain the macroing hand of reckoning into the rotation for me please cause as far as i remember the glyph reads that untauntable targets take damage....but the majority of targets in raids are well..tauntable so tanks can do their job and only a few mobs may not be for mechanics sake so why are ret macroing the skill into a rotation instead of just having it on hand when an untauntable target shows up

[@TheeFreakiishlyz]

Unholy gargoyle change is the best thing to ever happen. Ulduar with Phase 1 snapshotting would've just been the most toxic playstyle ever in ulduar for bosses that matter... Great change.

[@FisherGaming]

Toxic? Or do you mean you just don't like it?

[@alexhill9423]

Because affliction Snapshotting isn’t toxic?

[@hunter35193]

@@FisherGaming By "toxic" he means skill diff. All change really did was bring that skill gap closer by nerfing the top 20% who were snapshotting properly.

[@iriseteru]

@@alexhill9423 No, not at all. Affliction snapshotting is simple and straightforward. It is absolutely nothing like what Unholy snapshotting used to be, or still is. It takes far more effort than reapplying Corruption periodically.

[@flexprog3374]

I was not expecting for the scaling of feral cat and arms to be so bad at the start but I'm pretty sure they will both catch up at some point. Maybe what is missing is crit, just like fury warrior ?

[@F14thunderhawk]

Fury, Combat, and cat all scale off Arpen and Crit, and arpen only hits its breakpoint for fury during Argent Tournament, where as Cat and Combat cannot hit 0Armor even with BIS ICC/RS gear.

[@flexprog3374]

@@F14thunderhawk Unless stats have changed, arpen cap is definitely obtainable for cat in bis, and just exactly reachable for combat with like arpen personal consumable.

[@someweirdo9129]

I don't buy the fury hype nearly as hard as people are trying to sell it, theyre probably going to end up top middle of the pack at like 6-8th in dps overall. And that is being very optimistic.

[@danlorett2184]

I still don't understand how people think Fury is fine or that "it scales". Fury is STILL the lowest "common" dps spec, even WITH fantastic gear. As for cleave fights, you have... Kologarn (a HUGE bitch to cleave on), XT Hardmode, and yogg hardmode? The "cleave" fights he's thinking of are fights where cleave dmg literally doesn't matter. On top of this, we're still playing with 2 nerfs we didn't have in OG wrath: ArP nerf and the TG dmg penalty. They could literally remove the TG dmg penalty (which wasn't added til sometime in TOGC IIRC) and we'd be... middle of the pack. Even once we're in ICC with shadowmourne sims are showing we're gonna be basically A tier dps. So currently... we're on pace to play 3 FULL PHASES where our BEST raid spec is the worst normal dps spec. And our reward is that IF you get a shadowmourne... well you still can't compete with DKs and locks and sometimes rogues, but you'll be a bit above average! At least ret paladins had two other fantastic specs to play. Warriors have 3 bad specs, and eventually... in ICC... if you get shadowmourne... one of our specs will be A tier dps... for all of one phase.

[@Scarletpimpanel73]

"for all of one phase" - not really. More for "some of one phase" if you get Shadowmourne instead of your ret.

[@DataCollaborate]

Is there any Possible Update on the Best and also Valid Meme Specs? i emphatize them a lot, and also any News of a new Vanilla Game (like classic+) ?

[@TheMichaellathrop]

So I remember Arms/Fury hybrid warriors were really good right at the end of original Burning Crusade, not sure how they fared in BC classic.

[@Ghost-fe1vp]

13:40. nice willie

[@chandlerstlouis8110]

well currently im not playing warrior, which has been my main in wow since i started playing the game. im tired of the way blizzard has been treating warriors in classic, with the constant nerfs the second they find something that makes them a little better, meanwhile snapshotting is allowed to be a thing still. warriors are super fun to play, but its so discouraging seeing them be as bad as they are right now while receiving nerfs. ive moved to playing either a dk or fire mage right now as i do find both of them fun as well, but my overall enjoyment has been diminished because of how theyve treated warriors. there was a blue post a while back that talked about warriors and what they were nerfing about them, and in the same paragraph they seemed to be laughing about it and almost making fun of the class, and ever since i saw that i stopped playing the class. i know it may seem like a bit of an overreaction on my part, but its incredibly annoying to see this as someone who has almost only played warrior at this point. i had also read that warriors are now projected to not be near the top once icc rolls around and they are in full bis! how in the fuck is that ok when shadowmourne is included in the bis im talking about? i feel like a legendary should propel any class that uses it to somewhere near the top, but from what im seeing, its not even gonna get close to that. thankfully i do enjoy fire mage like i said, which is what i currently play the most, but i would be really happy if they eventually decided to buff warriors so they could actually feel useful. why play a class that doesnt bring anything unique if they are at the bottom of the meter? thats really what bugs me most. if a class is there almost entirely for the sake of dpsing and not to bring certain buffs, they should rightfully be like a top 4-5 dps, not bottom 4-5.

[@thiskneegrow]

classic isn't original. You are crying over a bastardized version of classic. Don't play the game. speak with your wallet.

[@chandlerstlouis8110]

@@thiskneegrow well considering i was too young to play the game when retail was vanilla, tbc, and wotlk, this stuff feels new to me, and im not gonna treat it like ive already played it before. classic for me feels like a new game with each expansion, and its mostly enjoyable. i just dont like what theyve been doing in wotlk with class balance so far. dont start saying speak with your wallet, shit is kinda weird to hear from everyone like they think they know what theyre talking about

[@thiskneegrow]

@@chandlerstlouis8110 Ok then have fun with the game then. It doesn't make sense to me to see people whine over something and continue to support what they are crying about. Just shut up and give blizzard your money.

[@bonechip01]

@@thiskneegrow so you should just quit every game you get invested in when balance changes annoy you? Yeah that's a great idea...

[@thiskneegrow]

@@bonechip01 Lets pretend this hasn't been an issue for years...If you've invested in this game, you are fully aware of the outcome and deserve everything. So stop complaining and deal.

[@Destory1993]

The problem i have with the ret pally buffs: "the paladin only got 2 S-Tier raiding specs, what we gonna do? Ohhh i know buff the ret to make warriors even more obsolete... and better fix the polearm for furys or that firery weapon crits effects the deepwounds debuff that made dps warriors somewhat competitive in the dmg meters."... The answer from the common andy: "you cant complain about warriors being bad now, you scale to S-Tier in icc!" .... yeah to bad that ret pallys do the same, maybe even better now thanks to buffing the ret... in icc paladins are the only class which every specc they specc into is in the top of the S-Tier... well holy and protection are the top of the top specs, theres literally no better tankspecc than protpally and no better healer than holypally

[@Orgathor]

Actually seen some Blood DKs pumping hard

[@arthas1774]

"Ur a idiot my precious nostalgia F-tier is awesome I'm number 1 in all my raids"- every other comment on this

[@mourdinmourdin]

Played for phase 1 ... got tired of the general peoples mindset being obsessed with parces and speed running...guess thats their way of having fun which im unable to relate to........quit the game since I wasn't able to find a guild / static who would play the game in a much casual manner like back in the day....but oh well seems like the ones who are still playing are having a blast :]

[@Jenartik]

it must've killed you to not release the 80th "feral druids doing some stupid bs in vanilla" video

[@Broomtwo]

I am playing survival hunter, but I really want to play marksman. It turns out (both in sims, the actual parse data, and in the experience everyone is having) that survival is just still straight up better, no matter how good your gear is, in this tier. I played hunter all through classic and TBC, and its still relatively fun, I just really don't enjoy the trap weaving. While the trap weaving does give an interesting skip cap to the class, it really gets old having to risk my life on half these bosses every 25 seconds or so just to get my damage out. Kinda wish sometimes I could play like I did in TBC and turn my brain off.

[@skurtskidibibbbab453]

U have to trapweave even as MM if u wanna do good dps

[@Broomtwo]

@@skurtskidibibbbab453 I know, my issue with that is more with the class in general than either spec. At least with mm you don't need to worry about re-applying serpent sting

[@dabiggreasy]

Not me ever since my loot council guild screwed me on gear since phase 1 causing me to dip out and join a more casual guild.

[@liamwilson7549]

It’s a battle between Ret Pally, Afflic Warlock, and Arcane/fire Mage

[@kookospuuro7445]

Feels awful to enjoy playing feral. Double dps speccing as feral/balance for different needs for comps usually end up just playing balance. Casters being more useful and over-represented want the caster buffs from balance while feral gives a bleed buff for that one fury warrior or bleed for rogues for Hunger for Blood. Can't justify playing feral over balance, but that's just in my head.

[@roniroukoz6040]

I think putting shadow priest in b tier is a bit low, since i got my 4 piece set on my sp i got a flat 15% dmg increase and im now always in top 3 dps overall in 25 and mostly top 2 in 10s, thats in pugs or guild runs. Vessax, hodir, and yogg u do amazing. Algalon ur a must have, and u give hit to the whole raid, improved vt can heal a lot overall specially on vessax if ur in tank group. On mimiron ur dispersion is amazing for fire kiting. And u can divine hymm to save the raid on call. So putting all of those in a b tier is a bit low for me.

[@laurelmalinowski1676]

They always shit on us SP

[@jgm877]

Fire mage peaks here with set bonus but may fall back down a bit in toc when arcane gets ilvl and T9

[@blay5427]

Lol what? Fire mages peak? In p2? Lmao. If anything, the more higher the ilvl, the wider the gap between fire and arcane will be. Arcane will only be good if ur guild is killing bosses in under 2 mins

[@s.t.5993]

I main an unholy dk from the very start . What bothered me, were the continuous changes with my meta. Either the gear to dw from 2H, changes in my rotation and abilities, changes with the gargoyle etc. I am not arguing if they were good or bad changes , just I would prefer more stability in the beginning instead trying to figure out what is happening with this class

[@KarlMerkli]

2h to DW was a thing already in original wotlk, private servers and beta. Nothing has changed about that. Gargoyle change also barely changed anything for you.

[@alexhill9423]

@@KarlMerklidefinitely was not a thing in original wrath

[@KarlMerkli]

@@alexhill9423 It absolutely was. It was so strong it was nerfed and Gargoyle was moved to last tier. It used to be way up earlier. Imagine being so confidentally incorrect. DW UH was by far the best dps in original wotlk.

[@alexhill9423]

@@KarlMerkli got any reference to dw uh ever being used in original wrath?

[@KarlMerkli]

@@alexhill9423 Just search for 0/32/39 and you'll find plenty.

[@outlaw0ftorn]

Been doing pretty well as Ret paladin before the "Reckoning" patch. Been killing meters since though I think I could be doing more, just not sure how.

[@R3ar3ntry]

As a ret main, I'm happy

[@Kuidoful]

Oh my god imagine all the melee parries at 3:48

[@businesscatlimbo]

FYI shamans can snapshot their fire elemental

[@Bombdotca]

Went from Enhance to Lock, man what an easy rotation in comparison

[@JP-bs8gl]

i play Both . They Both challenging in their own ways. Enhance is More Micro und affli is More Macro and Ofc does More dmg Overall . But as enhance you don’t have to think After you got your ele snapshottet you just do your Rotation and press it on cool down . As affli you have to calculate usage of cds. 2 Snapshot to think about . Multi dot Tracking . Decision making is harder but the rotation in its self is smaller than enhance . Both are Hard but Atleast they satisfiying cause the dmg is there . Unlike feral

[@martinc9510]

@@JP-bs8gl Or you can play demo lock and turn off your brain. I too have an Enhance main with a warlock on the side, it's day and night.

[@xXNIDSXx]

I just got GSD and Caress so i'm gonna try phys enhance out for a bit, see if its what i want to pursue and if not jump back to spellhance, seems like spellhance is performing consistantly better anyhow.

[@seanj5249]

This tier list is out to lunch

[@BigHeadClan]

Hmmmm I'd shuffle this list around a fair bit although admittedly the dps differences between top of A Tier and bottom B tier is really dang small, all of the classes in those two ranks could be shuffled around if they are played in the higher percentiles. S tier still has a notable gap in terms of dps compared to other classes and C tier is a decent chunk behind those found in A/B Tiers. S Tier - Affliction, Fire , Unholy, Demo A Tier - Boomkin, Frost DK, Assassin, Spriest, Destro, Survival, Arcane B Tier - Elemental, Combat, Enhance, Marksman C Tier - Ret, Fury, Feral, D - Arms, BM, Frost Mage, Sub F - Blood

[@Brumfield85]

I’m loving frost dk

[@jgalla5549]

ele can be in the top 5 consistently in ulduar, they're slept on imo. fury shouldnt be past C imo.

[@andrewmiller200]

Uhh you vastly underestimate the utility of boomies. Starfall is insane for the burst when needed on multiple fights in ulduar, typhoon has found multiple uses on freya, mim HM, algalon, XT adds. Not to mention rebirth and innervate

[@JetBen555]

Warlock are supposed to be Giga Chad pumper dps but all the warlock I have played with so far in Wotlk suck, especially in dungeon.

[@martinc9510]

Affliction has to set up to deal damage. In dungeons the fights are just too short. Demonology should be okay though.

[@danlorett2184]

aff sucks in dungeons

[@JetBen555]

@@danlorett2184 warlock suck in general regardless of spec, I rarely encounter a good one, in raids or dungeons.

[@dieterbohlen2456]

@@JetBen555 thats why top guilds take multiple locks for theyr raids. Cause the class sucks so hard 🤡

[@JetBen555]

@@dieterbohlen2456 but how many players are actually good at the class, not a whole lot from what I've seen (btw im 9/9hms in 10man and 7/9hms in 25man). Like I said in my first post, the vast majority of warlock I encounter suck. I should add that it's not just warlock but caster in general.

[@Nathan08292]

At the start of the expansion I was torn between mage or death knight. Decided mage and I am not disappointed. Ulduar is the best mage has felt in as long as I can remember. 3 viable specs and arcane will improve as fight times and mechanics improve

[@icebox1954]

Anything is viable if your standards are low enough.

[@rengarisameme1190]

How exactly is Frost viable?

[@wurstwasser6567]

Affliction Warlocks are only at 1 if : The fight is long enough, you can stand still, the last 25% you can both of it. If this is not the case affliction is only Top 5.

[@TrapDorSpida]

I think the dps are pretty even for the most part. At least there's enough variety when you play with real/normal people. We have a feral druid as one of the top pumpers in my guild at least. Healers, not so much. At least that's the way it feels. At the time I'm writing this 491 of the top 500 healers in Ulduar are Discipline Priests. I play disc and it feels like I would have to try to not top the healing meters.

[@lief3414]

That's just from hps perspective tho. As long as the raid isn't taking too much dmg disc steals hps from others, ofc there's a gap. Furthermore I'm not sure how are parses calculated for healers but it seems rigged. I agree disc is too strong but hpala might be even stronger and neither require too much skill. Not very healthy situation. Also disc hpala being clear go-to for 10man is so stale and lame.

[@ThePlatinumx]

destruction warlock is doing more dmg than enhancer, shadow, all hunter speccs, arc mage, ele shaman, balance druid, ret and fury and you put it in C Tier? for real? thats just wrong in every aspect. "cause there are 2 other speccs" is the reason? why is combat in a tier then when there is assa? why is arcane in a tier when there is fire? why is ele in b tier when there are enhance shamans? they have some utility and pull good numbers so putting them into c is nothing but wrong.

[@mishabaker3829]

fire mage not being s tier is insane

[@CaptainSweatpants90]

I mean, have you watched his justification for it? I believe it's very well placed in high A tier because of the high variance it has.

[@icebox1954]

Arcane is still better in most fights now. It might stay that way until ICC or even then.

[@lawfrey3859]

"Caster loot is really contested." Camera pans to the casual guilds my characters are part of currently, where we're consistently raiding with 3 DKs, 3 ret paladins, 2 fury warriors, 4 rogues and 1-2 mage/warlocks each max. I think casual guilds very much turn the loot expectancy on its head, by struggling to find the good classes better guilds recruit en masse, and banking big on the less optimal stuff a more results-oriented guild wouldn't let you play. I'm not trying to make a point here, so much as I just think the contrast is really funny. I play disc priest in one and unholy DK in the other, with both guilds sharing the same theme, haha.

[@graceybfrg]

Please do you research.. enhance is now switching to WF for single target with their new bis mainhand not being a SP weapon anymore…

[@aaronneal7099]

true but thats ONLY if you manage to get caress of insanity to go along with either mast/GSD for the 2.7 sync and youll still use the sp mh for cleave heavy fights, snapshot, trash

[@graceybfrg]

@@aaronneal7099 there are still other 2.6 weps and u can get iron council 2.7 MH as well. Also caress drops all the time still so no biggie, u can get two of those as well.

[@hcs626]

I love the basically double standard of the(not as a whole but it seems geared towards it) community that Ret needed a buff and unholy didnt need a nerf for the health of raids tbh. Still boggles my mind that people are more hardcore now about raid comp and classes and specs in WoTLKC then back in WoTLK. But I guess I shouldn't be considering how classic was done and tackled by the community.

[@Aesir47]

When I did uld back the day I was blood dps for 25s and our mt for for 10s... also playing blood. Going with the final patch changed a lot. Frost was useless other than a broken hybrid in early wrath.

[@joshw3719]

Great video, but what about the BM Hunter! 😭

[@MrsSummerrachel]

RiP to my over all fav dps spec BM ;_;

[@gabrielcesar2388]

Once enhance gets the more powerful weapons they use windfury with spell weps on aoe fights. Normal fight they snapshot fire ele with spell weps and switch to physical weps

[@camster1007]

as an ele main throughout the expansion i tend to out dps almost every class except for assassination

[@Supersquare247]

buff feral

[@0Ropy0]

Unfortunately that won't happen. Blizzard is too incompetent to do something. And unlike other DPS specs, feral DPS doesn't need major changes, just some tweaking to their tier set bonus, especially the T9 and T10, those tier bonus are bad compared with the ones from T8. Only 4set bonus from T10 is barely decent.

[@lupafemina4157]

God, as a feral I just can't get the hang of bearweaving. Wish omen of clarity procced more. Still a fun spec, but certainly unforgiving and challenging.

[@Suinchistreams]

You should make a Botting video about Era servers. On Mankrik we have hunter bots in Dire Maul now.

[@TheSmexyteddy]

Imp blood pack shouldnt stack with commanding anymore :( they changed it sometime early ulduar

[@cat4luny4]

I think the reason boomkins scaled worse is because of the tier set

[@Jaigarful]

Yeah T7 is just really good, and jumping into full T8 Conq is a pretty minor DPS increase. Its nice for the extra survivability, but its felt awful damage wise.

[@andromidius]

@@Jaigarful Its a bit wonky. Adds some nice random instant casts for movement, but for raw DPS its inferior to T7.

[@cat4luny4]

@xshipwrec best looking druid set for sure 🤣

[@boblatte123]

It'd very rare at any point of the game that affliction isn't the best. Aff had been the best for years now in retail and it's similar for classic

[@liam3104]

That's not true at all. It was average AF in vanilla and arcane and BM hunter were better in tbc. Affliction was very bad at times in Shadowlands too.

[@Kakaucko]

Swap fire and frost DK and feral and fury and would agree, but no way with how much more dmg mages can dish out than frost and the fact they are not melee and ulduar has a lot of bosses with limited melee spots. And Feral is doing same dps as fury on logs but bring infinitely more utility, don't think there is a single argument for fury to be that high/feral that low, if we talking current phase

[@lief3414]

He goes mainly by logs and focuses on raw dps, not the full contribution of the spec. From my experience this is actually preferable since the dude is kinda biased and not too keen on questioning his knowledge/view.

[@Frank_UK_was_taken]

3:29 i want 100% reduced cast speed!!

[@Peleski]

Warcraft logs are almost useless. They way they rank and devalue fight contributions (ie AOE on boss fights) is often detrimental to raids where people are chasing big numbers at the expense of good mechanics.

[@trl2151]

Blood dps with equivalent gear to any other melee dps does just as much as ret or warrior as ArP goes up if not more sometimes, which being self sufficient to the degree that rogues are as far as survivability. It's not really fair to give it a default F rating if no one gives it an actual fair chance because their goal is to just do what everyone is already doing and trying to eek more out of DK and Warlock where as the other classes are literally only represented to provide the buffs for those favorites to get the most out of their already high end dps.

[@Greynth]

Willie just shitting out videos for clicks without doing much research as usual

[@GorfTheG]

He is SO WRONG about blood. People just want to hate the idea of it and not even bother giving it a chance, but it can easily out dps the B tier on single targets if you play it well. AOE is its weakness, but I would still call it satisfactory. The two-target cleave is also pretty nuts.

[@jivkojheliaskov9021]

In my guild am usually in top 3 of dmg meter any encounter as a boomy doing good dmg have 97-99's on average 8k dps lets say Yet whenever I try raid with pug sr or gdkp whicher I get invited to after checking logs for the alt they see 0-80 parse and straight kick?

[@ZZTroll1]

why cant they just do #somechanges to arms as well, just have improved slam make it instant and not a .5 second cast. that way we can actually benefit from haste a lot more.

[@davidt5194]

Totally disagree on the point about trap weaving being more difficult in Ulduar. You can easily trap both of the "hard" ones in the video - Kologarn you just jump into his model, trap and disengage back, Mimiron just take care for mines or deterrence if you have to go through them. Pretty much every boss aside from Vezax is trap friendly.

[@Middlerer]

So on Kologarn, you like, literally jump off the edge, trap, then disengage back? Asking for my surv alt

[@MaidensRag]

frost dk usually #! dps on overall boss and trash damage in my raid heheh

[@demetris92]

kinda harsh puting sub rrogue in F, its kinda like destro lock.. i dont think any c or b here can beat sub single tar anw

[@Plaguesworth370]

your reasoning for fire being the largest variant makes sense. but also, there are SO many mages out there and 80% are just dogwater. so that bottom 25% is alot of bots

[@D2ezbmu]

80% dogwater arcane mage here. You right you right…

[@nickloos3202]

Could you please make a similar video for healers and tanks?

[@lief3414]

Wouldn't be as good. He bases this one on dps logs, tanks and healers don't have such a metric to use. To be honest I feel like willie is fairly biased so I'd rather not see video about his subjective views on objective (yet too complex to unravel) topic.

[@sparcnyan]

Cat DPS needs a buff. You're putting in about 50-70% more effort with rotations, weaving, etc to barely put out more DPS than someone on a three button rotation.

[@kutsoul99]

It really bugs me when people ask for buffs on a clasic server, if this is how the class was why would you change It? Its not retail where balance is done each month. Imo play what you have fun with. Top performing is only needed on top guilds which most people are not in, including me . I say this a a feral player too.

[@sparcnyan]

@@kutsoul99 I want the class I enjoy playing most to be viable, and not limit my ability to enjoy higher end play. I disagree with keeping things 100% the way they were back then. Game balancing has come a LONG way since the late 2000s for blizzard. It’s the least amount of fun to only have a tiny handful of races, classes and specializations to pick from if you’re more into the hardcore play styles.

[@kutsoul99]

@@sparcnyan but you knew this was going yo happen, data was there. Feral its not unplayable its unrewarding, if you decided to pick It Up and take on the chalenge well thats on feral players.

[@kutsoul99]

​​@@sparcnyan kzbin.info/www/bejne/jIC8oKGqjp6jppY check this out, feral player doing 100% Cat play, no bearweaving no flowershifting. Just a good retation and managing energy eficiently

[@desertranger82]

​@@sparcnyan it's like asking to buff retribution paladin in vanilla, people that choose bad classes knows they are roleplaying only and trying the best to maximize the class

[@cosmifall]

Its okay, i dont mind sitting off the list, i have a spirit kitty who loves mee 😮‍💨

[@tyrnip7868]

Blood dps is way better than you are saying even though it is a meme spec.

[@Infections95]

Playing firemage and honestly the 4piece is just so shockingly bad for consistent parsing. Sometime you'll proc constantly and hit an easy 99 and other fights you wont get a single proc where 2 2piece would be better if not for the stats.

[@Alias248]

Nice Video 😀

[@Unparadoxability]

If everything is in S-tier there is no S-tier