Who is the Real Vision? | A Philosopher Reacts

[@nothefabio]

Vision "defeating" Vision with a paradox is the most Vision thing that could ever happened in the MCU.

[@kaemonbonet4931]

It's how superheroes should be fighting. I remember a bunch of times where I left the an mcu movie disappointed because the heroes didn't argue with the villains, opting instead to beat them up. It's the greatest strength of age of ultron, the scene in the forest is great.

[@ricardoparente5824]

And that's what makes it... Vision-ary.

[@poetrakarsa]

@@ricardoparente5824 get out

[@mAg1Cb0Xsabbat]

Personally, I like that Wanda's Vision starts the conflict saying "Do you think we could discuss this?" and then finishes the battle by doing exactly that.

[@kaemonbonet4931]

@JB idk man, maybe I just don't like their arguements. Either way it never feels like the villains are proven wrong. Only beaten. I think the is first iron man probably did a good job because they had the scene where Tony addresses the press after the fight, two I think really didn't. Probably because the conflict wasn't really idealogical.

[@Kazuma11290]

This was my favorite scene in the whole show. Wanda was great, but NEVER has the Marvel movies dove into blatant philosophical debate like this. And it's so poetic as well. Two ghosts of the Mind Stone locked in a battle of the mind.

[@veles1415]

If Zach Snyder was directing this they would have probably continued punching... in slow motion.

[@steverogers6572]

@@veles1415 lmaoo

[@thanos7459]

@@veles1415 bruh, they coming for you lol

[@jacoba6747]

@@veles1415 [ANCIENT LAMENTATIONS PLAY]

[@sleepdeprived7879]

@@jacoba6747 liked the movie but that theme.. It played way too much...

[@DanielRomero-qe5lk]

The real vision is the friends we made along the way

[@PureAbsurdist]

Cheers to the ones that we got.

[@StoriesWithPrentice]

[@PittsburghSonido]

The real Vision is the one who shot first, saying “MaClunkey!”

[@deldel5204]

Nicee

[@siegeofdarkness8212]

I hate myself for getting that reference

[@RansomeStoddard]

So Dr. Strange defeats Dormomu by trapping him in a time-loop. Good Vision defeats Evil Vision by discussing philosophy. And in End Game, Captain America gets the mind stone/scepter from Hydra by outsmarting them. I love how the heroes of Marvel find more ways to win beyond just punching the crap out of eachother.

[@zippomage]

i mean......it's still mostly punching, but you're right!

[@bennyton2560]

all of these yet Civil War didn't have the philosophical debate it deserves

[@zippomage]

@@bennyton2560 are you talking about legislating away the rights of individuals with powers? what's philosophical about tyrrany?

[@Kenrickwong]

And... Superman saved himself by saying Martha!

[@CoolAtlas]

@@zippomage Are you talking comics or movie? In the movie it wasn't about legislating the rights of individuals with powers. It was more oversight for when they go on missions. The Sokovia Accords have nothing to do with their personal lives and instead basically saying "Hey, if you are gonna be doing super hero things you gotta check with an agency, ect" It's like how the U.S military cannot just walk into France and do whatever . They dont have jurisidiction

[@paco8431]

"What is drip if not swag persevering"- Vishawn J'arvis

[@celestialbeing985]

Vishaw javaris

[@ot7biasedmashups]

Bruh plz that is hilarious 😂

[@Slipknot4769]

Goddamn amazing comment😂

[@3dberserk1]

Paul Bettany as vision is one of the best superhero castings that people don't talk about. And to think that it was almost an accident.

[@dm_dude]

Well, he was already Jarvis. So it was just the next logical thing to make him also Vision. But I agree, Paul Bettany is a great actor.

[@Kdot6_16]

He's really good at sounding like AI

[@LuigiGamesful]

@@Kdot6_16 Yeah his voice is calming in a strange but good way

[@MonkeBrain07]

Yeah, I can't imagine anyone playing Vision after seeing his performance in this series.

[@phantom_dagger4103]

"There are no accidents," Master Oogway.

[@xxxburke]

He has been a voice with no body, a body but not human, a memory made real and now... A being seeking a soul.

[@zanderhenriksen6776]

The way I see it, white vision could reunite with Scarlett and thereby gain his soul via her - some hex magic or just metaphorically. This would also be super romantic. It would make sense too, as she has "part of the mindstone" fused with her. So she would make him complete, and he would make her complete romantically and hopefully help keep her from unleashing chaos magic on the world.

[@Thed538dhsk]

@@zanderhenriksen6776 I'd like if he's suicidal since his programing is to destroy vision yet he is vision or maybe on the autistic spectrum since he's the emotionless vision in the comics so one that doesn't react as others do might be interesting

[@gp8189]

the point where you realize Vision is just tech Pinocchio

[@rhiannongreen2642]

@@zanderhenriksen6776 I'm not sure this works, since Vision alone is not what Wanda wants. She doesn't go after him at the end after all, she goes looking for her children. I suppose in the long term a restored Vision could try and talk her out of it.

[@joelmirreyes3092]

@@zanderhenriksen6776 y así, damas y caballeros se destruye el plot original e inicial del multiverse of madness.

[@vincentbatten4686]

I love how the two visions meet, fly into a building, then immediately philosophize. No foreplay necessary.

[@damionmurray8244]

Not just any building...but a library no less.

[@johncrafton8319]

They fought at first. I'd call that foreplay.

[@shadowling77777]

Phoreplay

[@criticalbil1]

I wish my relationships would start this way 😐

[@doomsdayng]

White Vision is not on a mission of self-annihilation - he is on a mission of "Being removed from the story but still available for future Directors to bring back Vision if they need to."

[@HaganeNoGijutsushi]

Found the pragmatist.

[@fluidxd5476]

I think Disney probably already have white visions future plot line planned out, they're planning years in advance for the entire MCU at this point

[@steviegreenthumb4720]

Yes cause it totally didnt happen in the comics first.

[@Spartan11117777]

Yes exactly!!! Just as how Marvel introduced Mantis specifically so she can meet Thanos and how the sole reason why AntMan and the Wasp movie exists is to introduce the Time Vortexes…I see the Vision made from Wanda’s Imagination convince White-Carbon-Fiber-Vision to bring him back for another sequel in the movies or the next WandaVision TV show.

[@flameconvoy7424]

Classic Vision, just like in the comics

[@captainobvious1415]

Dr. Brand from Interstellar: “We love people who have died, where’s the social utility in that?” Vision: “What is grief, but love persevering?”

[@rohanalias9053]

Damn that was awesome

[@evenaarek1042]

A fitting pair of quotes to show where reason's domain stops

[@JoshuaG]

Props to Paul Bettany and the Writers for creating that line....

[@compactreview]

Genius! :)

[@Spartan11117777]

Reminds me of the Fallout games where Ron Perlman says “War. War Never Changes.” While MGS4: Guns of the Patriots says “War Has Changed.”

[@tquinnhunsaker4344]

Of course the battle of two Visions end in a philosophy smackdown it's the only way that this could have ended

[@kaitlnwhite6809]

I watching the finale with a friend and I instantly remembered the end of Ultron and Vision’s tendencies for nonviolent solutions to problems and I instantly thought “Oh, this is going to end in a philosophical debate” and I was right. 😂😂😂

[@Deris87]

Vision's best moments in the movies have been when he's waxing poetic/philosophical, and Paul Bettany delivers those lines beautifully. It was definitely the best way to end that confrontation. Plus, when we inevitably get the "real" Vision back I think it'll feel well earned because of moments like this.

[@siegeofdarkness8212]

F##k me I think you broke my brain

[@israellai]

I knew it and I was surprised anyway Love this so much

[@JackFryeMedia]

I would have prefered if John Krasinski showed up with the X-Men and Jared Leto's Joker to take down White vision and Agatha. Really disappointed that the X-Men didn't show up to kill everyone including Wanda. Would have liked to see her die and the X-Men laugh at her.

[@thousandyeargems4360]

"The ship of Theseus" scene was the highlight of the series.

[@buhlawkaydaboy6129]

You’re obviously a man of impeccable taste judging by your photo

[@natimber3040]

@@buhlawkaydaboy6129 they overrated

[@denimdinofan9]

200th like congrats

[@brookeharris2043]

YUP bc not only was it pointing out how neither of them are Vision and both of them are, it also pointed out the main reason why what Wanda was doing was wrong

[@raphaelhemery152]

Such a good scene. Although my favorite was the "What is grief if not love persevering" scene.

[@Tamlinearthly]

I assume White Vision is off having a moment with himself because on one hand he was recently programmed to destroy Vision, which he now believes to be himself, but on the other hand he also now has had his previous identity restored, and self-destruction isn't something the real Vision would do, so very likely he's still at odds with himself.

[@hiccuphufflepuff176]

I think when he realised that Hayward and SWORD had suppressed his memories to make him "a weapon more easily controlled" he stopped caring about the mission they gave him, and now has the same motives he did as an Avenger.

[@unabruja624]

Honestly wanda creating a TV show to cope with her reality seems pretty relatable, if you ask me

[@emunebula2975]

Like watch the office after an eventful day

[@icedchqi]

Yeah I hate it when that happens

[@unabruja624]

@@icedchqi *maladaptive daydreaming entered the chat*

[@Max1990Power]

I listen to sabaton after doing guided tours about the Holocaust :P

[@drewar2648]

@Una Bruja - I Know, Right! ....is it not relatable to most other people?

[@szepi79]

I work in IT. for me, it was like: Wanda's Vision is the Software, White Vision is the Hardware. Neither is truly Vision without the other.

[@Shiirya]

I thought more something like that yeah, more like when we see how wanda create the new vision, its like she is glowing with some kinda of mind stone power which was oringinaly vision. She may have "capture" vision soul when she destroyed him and imprint it somehow even with the timeshift from thanos as her power are really unknown but seems to be able to get out of reality so maybe out of time. So the white vision is the body and memory of vision but somehow like an empty shell because it lacks of the heart or soul which was saved in wanda, so now they need to be reunited. And it still possible because vision dont realy die at the end, he just vanish but in this current state, he was simply a soul, a pure energy, so he could wander lost in the flow of space and at some point find his way back to his body and get whole again. Just a theory obviously

[@speedfreakfrank]

White Vision is the main user account while Hex Vision is the administrator account. Only Hex Vision can grant access to important data.

[@szepi79]

@@speedfreakfrank okay, that was fucking clever. it makes more sense than the HW/SW analogy

[@drewar2648]

@szepi79 - So Synergy then. True Vision is the unique Synergy created only when the right hardware and correct software come together?

[@ScathingMobile]

Technically Wanda's Vision isn't the "original software" in your analogy. Wanda's Vision is a re-creation of her memory of her interactions with the original Vision, implemented through magic rather than technology. Wanda's Vision is a closer to a reverse engineered and emulated Real Vision. SWORD Vision is the original Vision's entire technology stack that suffered catastrophic hardware failure, but during repair had access to it's execution state saved in non-volatile memory but inaccessible. As per the clip in this vid where Wanda's Vision says SWORD Vision's "memory storage is not easily wiped", Wanda's Vision merely restores access to the "state" data of original Vision in the internal storage of SWORD Vision (like doing an "Undelete" on a computer). As per the conclusion of the clip, SWORD Vision is the actual Vision. In human terms it's no different in principle to a person who suffers trauma, undergoes surgery, and has amnesia when they awaken until their memories return. Wanda's Vision would be like a CGI copy of that person created by someone who knew them really well.

[@danielruiz8259]

10:00 One important thing to add here: Vision, the vision that Wanda made, also doesn't have the memories before the show.

[@evansageser6943]

He does have some memories as shown, but it’s difficult to precisely determine whether they are the same memories. I think most of them would have been filtered specifically through Wanda’s perceptions

[@praazlwurm]

I think it might be implicit that wanda would give him as much memories as she had (their interactions, stories he's told her, other background knowledge, maybe even anything she's gleaned of jarvis over time) the problem that presents, however, is that red-vision is more Wanda's Vision than a 'true' vision, complicated by if the memories white accessed were his or transferred from red, in which case they'd be lensed twice over by wanda then red vision! anyway, I personally fall in a little with Chomsky in that our perception of reality doesn't match true reality, but diverge in that its so far the only reality that we have so we have to work within it to define and judge and make meaning as we see fit

[@luismedina709]

@@evansageser6943 I was under the impression that Wanda Vision did not give the memories to White Vision, but just broke down the barrier keeping the memories from white vision.

[@danielruiz8259]

@@luismedina709 that's exactly what i thought too. That the red vision only unlocked the memories of the white vision instead of transfer.

[@olsongc8422]

@@evansageser6943 but her clearly states to Wanda "I have no memory outside of this town. Who am I?"

[@KevinWidesouls]

“I’m about to spoil a pivotal moment in the series.” **titles video “Who is the Real Vision?”**

[@tellmesomething2412]

What the title should be: *"Wandavision: The Visionary Debate"*

[@professorx3060]

And a thumbnail with both Visions

[@eltacogordito6096]

I know joke when I see joke but probably the people who write the script, do the research, title the video, etc. are all different people, and almost certainly the filming happens before they decide on the title anyway who cares about spoilers in a cold and brutal universe

[@mithradates]

I don't know, that seems like a title that could just have easily have worked even back as far as the first previews before it started. Back then we had no idea how this dead character suddenly ended up in a black & white sitcom and "Who is the Real Vision?" could have easily fit a speculative video then too.

[@ScaryMason]

Clearly white version is the copy. They just forgot to put a fresh ink cartridge in the copier.

[@emirochoa6055]

"Both ships and neither ship is the true ship"... Me: I request elaboration

[@kieshaanwebb915]

The ship will never be the same again.

[@jacob_massengale]

if both ships are the "true ship", then there cannot be a "true ship". kind of like if everyone was special in the same way.

[@adriansmith3427]

One ship is a memory, the other a copy. Neither are the real ship, but both are proof that there once was a ship! Sort of like a grave stone!

[@ceciladams4882]

It's a paradox

[@JAGuy]

@@jacob_massengale if everyone is special then no one is special

[@grimmcrag8715]

The ship of Theseus was weirdly relevant in a drunken conversation I had with some friends the other day. In the UK there was a band called "sugababes". Long story short, one member left and was replaced, followed by another member being replaced and then another, until the original lineup was completely gone. The original line up decided at one point to reform but they weren't allowed to call themselves "sugababes" because the band, with a whole new lineup, were still going. The question was, who were the "real" sugababes?

[@criticalbil1]

The Ship of Sugababes 😞

[@devanshuanada5786]

Two of the most iconic moments of MCU not involving some kind of quirky hero entry, punch line or a fight but moments which leads us to think are from this show. 1." What is grief if not love persevering " - The conversation between wanda and vision on how to deal with loss of a closed one. 2. The witty and thought provoking conversation between the two synyhezoids on the thought experiment of the Ship of Theseus. Well done Marvel, this just goes on to show that MCU is not just a bunch of superheroes in fancy costumes fighting in huge CGI fight sequences. Genuinely excited for what is about to come!!

[@CircusOfFive]

If White Vision has regained all his experiences, then I don't see him about to self-annihilate. As he voiced in Age of Ultron. "i am not what you intended. I am".

[@MrBern-ex3wq]

@@shalkonon013 Agreed. I think that Vision would try to find a way to make SWORD's controls useless again, rather than destroy himself. Now that he knows beyond the shadow of a doubt that he is indeed Vision, he would think like Vision would, a sentient being. Destroying himself so that he can't be controlled by SWORD seems like the easiest and cold logical solution an AI would come up with. AIs are not sentient, they just find the most efficient way to accomplish their objective and apply it, so it would find this option and take it without a doubt, because as an AI, it literally cannot value its own existence unless programmed to do so. Meanwhile Vision is a sentient being, so rather than seeking the most effective way to keep himself away from SWORD's control, he would search for a solution that allowed him to both continue to live/exist AND stay clear of SWORD's control, because as a sentient being, he values his own existence.

[@ethanpillay9493]

@Justin Pal - Freeman @Mr. Bern I believe that White Vision will become the new Vision for the MCU. Either way Vision is worthy of Mjolnir, he knows the right thing to do.

[@MrBern-ex3wq]

@@ethanpillay9493 Oh yeah definitely. Wandavision was, among other things, just a means for Marvel to resurrect Vision.

[@ethanpillay9493]

@@MrBern-ex3wq I wonder if/when they'll do the same to Tony and Steve and how that will all go about

[@MrBern-ex3wq]

@@ethanpillay9493 Sadly, human deaths are harder to reverse than that of a carbon synthezoid. Pretty sure they're both going to stay dead.

[@bazzfromthebackground3696]

I have the opposite of "Truman Show" "Is everyone just being a dick to me on purpose? Did I miss a joke somewhere?"

[@ninjapino]

Shit, he's on to us, guys....

[@MrKahrum]

Nah buddy, you didnt miss it. You dismissed it.

[@WellBattle6]

So are you talking about high school or work?

[@CharlieQuartz]

Why do I have both at the same time?

[@RPGDesignatedPaladin]

@@ninjapino Who told him?

[@enrique.garcia]

I was kinda pissed the show was gonna end with a laser fight AND THEN...

[@tellmesomething2412]

Yes.

[@racool911]

I'm glad they balanced both. So we got flying laser battles and a philosophical debate

[@cryofpaine]

Same with Wanda. Both of them ended their fights by being clever, not raw power.

[@dionmcgee5610]

@@cryofpaine yes. The more I think about the WandaVision series the more I'm satisfied with how it ended. While there was no Mephisto or Grim Reaper to raise the stakes higher, the resolutions with both two characters were well done. Wanda and Vision were my two favorite Avengers when I was growing up in the 70s actually. Not sure how common or uncommon that was back then, especially when women were almost always regulated to a lesser status in damn near everything. I know I read the original comics when the two first met and then proceeded to fall in love over the course of the next few years .(real years. Comic book time takes eternities to pass- if it ever passes at all. Strangely, the world's leaders seem to be replaced on a monthly basis in comic book time. The definition of forever and a day.

[@bennyton2560]

@Kristopher Prime Vision‘: I would prefer not to

[@Aristas-zd5vd]

I love how this scene visually mirrors vision's debate with ultron when he shuts ultron out.

[@alexv1154]

The ship of Theseus is one of my favorite thought experiments and I am so happy that Marvel included it

[@servantofgod3546]

I'm batman 😅😅😅

[@diogoalmeidavisuals]

Am I still me if I wake up from an accident with amnesia and can't access my memories?

[@rhiannongreen2642]

@Atheos B. Sapien I wonder at what point that applies, say if I lost a day or a month or even a fear years, rather than everything. How much experience would I have to lose to no longer be me?

[@LincolnDWard]

alternatively, if I have a dream about being someone else and I remember it, is that now part of my identity?

[@simba993]

ones identity could represent a them but so would your instincts and personality if anything a part of you that was familiar to identify yourself would be missing, yet it wouldn't be any different as much as you not being you because you forgot where you car keys are. a episode of House approached this subject when it asked is some ones with amnesia is still someones wife even though they don't remember who they are.

[@mrjonsey]

You are and you aren’t, thus the paradox.

[@saucevc8353]

I suppose it depends, do you retain your personality or do you have a fresh personality due to your lack of memory?

[@damilarewilliams6425]

White Vision : "but I do not possess the mindstone" Wanda: "vision you are the piece of the mindstone that lives in me" Wanda: "vision we will meet again" That's a pretty clear set up

[@horseman2938]

Then how can he use the mindstone abilities if he doesn’t have mindstone

[@horseman2938]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/g2G3nKmeabN9p9U

[@heyitsmira17]

Still, the father of her children is now gone. Even if White Vision has his memories up to his IW death and recovers his soul, he will never be Billy and Tommy's father.

[@omarsantana3680]

I think you're right in that its a set up. to me its a set up for Hex-Vision to come back as Wonder Man.

[@jinjango8983]

@@omarsantana3680 wonder man?

[@JamoboBorg]

Futurama has their own take on this, when Hermes feels inadequate and begins to add robot parts to himself to "upgrade". After a while this gts out of hand and he even decides to trade in his brain for a robots processor. In the end this gets resolved when it turns out Zoidberg has been keeping the body parts that have been replaced, sewing them together and now with Hermes' brain can bring him back: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Six_Million_Dollar_Mon

[@propelledchuck6815]

Ship of Theseus Paradox = How many band members can be replaced in Lynyrd Skynyrd before it becomes just a tribute band.

[@JoeEnglandShow]

That scene made that easily one of my favorite superhero fights ever.

[@barbwyer83]

White vision made a choice to break that skylight. He learned to phase, he couldve gone right through. It was a choice.....man-thing confirmed

[@DLxxx]

Well he was perfectly fine with terring up the town when fighting Hex Vision, so it seems that without his emotions his morals are still fluid.

[@SpyderStrike]

Skylight, of all things to get me to comment... I don't think he thought about the skylight. I doubt he was aware it existed. Dude just had his reality fundamentally shifted in possibly the most profound way. He was on a murder mission as a tool for someone else, the thing he wanted the least. He said he would rather die than be that, and that's exactly what he became. So he's got that (self-)betrayal to deal with. Which is gonna be pretty heavy on its own. All that on top of the fact that the Vision that "wasn't real" was more of a "real Vision" than he was. Until resurrected from nothing (Wanda) Vision showed the rebuilt Vision, the memories of Vision that technically neither of them had access to, but seemingly both knew were there. Talk about a mind bend. I don't think white Vision was aware of much of his surroundings at that point, he just needed to go think and sort his thoughts and memories. Wanda's Vision kind of had time to deal with these concepts and ideas already, possibly made easier without having the knowledge and memories of the Vision who Wanda actually fell in love with. He knew he was an imposter. My 2 cents anyway.

[@humorcidaltendencies]

Brandon Sanderson’s Stormlight Saga has a magic system based on identity metaphysics and I didn’t realize until just now.

[@Werelight]

This is actually a large part of most of his magics. A lot of Spiritual Realm mechanics are mirrors of real-world physics, and both Spiritual and Cognitive mechanics often mirror metaphysics. The idea of the Shards and their names largely come from the union of ideas like entropy with humanistic understandings of those ideas, as though gods are forces personified, like in the real world. Good stuff.

[@CarlosRodriguez-dh7mm]

Happy to hear this. I'm waiting to start until the first 5 book arc is finished

[@Cernunnnos]

@@Werelight sounds similar to Neil Gaimans work on DC in the sandman or his own American gods. The warp from 40k does something similar with personifying abstracts like lust or wrath. Garon Whited does something similar in Night Lord too. Where gods are abstract objects that originated from sentient thought in our physical realm and coalesce in some sort of spiritual realm which is most likely a physical realm like ours, but with completely different rules. His magic system is pretty interesting, because its told from the perspective of someone from our world, with a background in science. He approaches magic in a logical way, of physical properties reacting. Whilst most people native to the magic rich worlds interact with it on an intuitive level. His grounding in formal logic and empiricism leads him to making a magical fission reactor from stone by causing inert matter to decay, for example. Quite a fun series, butbhe becomes a bit of a Mary sue. How does Sanderson's systems work from the perspective of the users?

[@Werelight]

@@Cernunnnos Sanderson’s systems are famously varied and complicated, and we still don’t fully understand any of them. The standard example of sandersonian magic comes from mistborn. Allomancy is a magic system which endows people with one supernatural power that they can trigger by “burning” a specific ingested metal. Each person who is gifted this way can burn only one metal, and gains a specific superpower from it, whether it’s superhuman physicality, supernatural senses, the ability to suppress the emotions of others, or the ability to pull metal to you, so long as they burn the metal, which is used up in the process. There is also a unique category of person called a Mistborn, who is so supernaturally different that they are as though born of the supernatural mists that blanket the night. They can burn all metals that are keyed to a superpower. Allomancy interfaces with other magic systems in unique ways, which I will not discuss here for the sake of spoilers. trying to discuss the primary magic system of his Stormlight Archive would be a foolish effort here, so I’ll simplify by saying that it allows its users to absorb stormlight, nature’s supernatural power, and use it to enhance themselves, use two specific superpowers, and generally embody an idea, with some asterisks. Unlike allomancy, which has more discrete outcomes, surgebinding is more fluid and complex, and the powers of a Knight radiant defy simple unity of powers. A full knight radiant is every bit the equal of a Mistborn, and they can be made, not born. The world, then, must cope with the reality of individuals of such power appearing at such numbers.

[@theeviloverlord7168]

Yay! Another Sanderson fan in the wild!

[@caffeinedelusions]

The true Vision does not form until Hex Vision unlocks White Vision's suppressed memory, and becomes able to synchronize with Hex Vision's local network, allowing the two of them to share experiences, and giving White Vision the smallest resonant trace of the Mindstone's imprint.

[@kristianhaverasmussen8558]

If the mindstones contains infinite energy and a fraction of that energy is transferred somewhere else. You have effectively created another well of infinite energy. Thereby, white Vision is the original Vision with a paint job

[@idleeidolon]

characters are memorable because when they're in a story you can't help but include themes attached to them: tony stark: powerless technological man vs harsh superior nature while simultaneously arrogant technological man creating his own problems/doom. steve rogeres: liberty vs service, sacrifice vs self-actualization, politics vs the individual, heroism vs just being good vision: philosophy, identity, metaphysics. wanda: EMOTIONAL TRAUMA.

[@Xplorefiles]

Same as Doctor Who in season 8 when the doctor questions a robot who replaces its parts over and over and over, but at the same time questions himself for a hanging his full body every time he dies. And now he doesn’t even remember why he chose the face he is wearing

[@captainhands3558]

If a perfect copy of of myself was born today, in 28 years I don't think I'd recognize it as myself (save physically) because our memories would be different. So I'd say memories make the man.

[@kindbrute4640]

I don’t think that’s the question here. Think of it as “if a perfect clone was made of you today, complete with your memories, minus lets say the last 2 minutes or so, but did not go through inception in your mom’s womb, is that clone a real version of you?” Just to add a twist to bring it closer to this story, “say the current version of you, the one that went through OG sperm/egg inception was in a car accident and got amnesia. Would the clone version, which kept the memories, then become the real you?” Edit: If I could also ask a side question, which of the 2 do you think your friends and family would prefer and more importantly, which one would you want them to?

[@BertoxolusThePuzzled]

@@kindbrute4640 Both would be "me". The only logical solution I can suss out would be the two of us living together to share and/or split up aspects of my life as necessary, at least until we could figure out where to go from here. Eventually we would diverge enough NOT to both be "me" but until that point we would be essentially equivalent, as such it makes the most sense to work together more as one mind in two bodies rather than to compete or oppose one another. Weird thought but also a fun one.

[@kindbrute4640]

@@BertoxolusThePuzzled there’s a really good series called Counterpart that explores this question, if you’re ever bored

[@simba993]

so every morning that you are sleep deprived and don't drink coffee forget where you put your car keys you are not you but an imposter of you?

[@AustynSN]

Given that my favorite Marvel character is Ben Reiley, questions of this nature have plagued me for years.

[@KrisMadas]

You should have never mentioned White Vision's nasal problems because now I only can only hear your inhale every 4 seconds

[@jimstoesz3878]

The best part of it is how it incorporates a VERY strong research bias (Wanda's Vision not wanting to die at the hands of White Vision) into a thought experiment that's still internally consistent and scientific.

[@amf0078]

He should do a reaction to most philosophical lines from Vision in the MCU like for example his strength invites challenge, challenge incites conflict speech in civil war and his grief is love preserving line as well. To break them down would be a pretty good video. 👍🏼

[@TheRockinDonkey]

I think White Vision is on a voyage of self-discovery at this point.

[@TheUnluckyEverydude]

I feel like if the Visions came to the Chomskian understanding of one is a robot made of Vision's corpse and the other is Wanda's Imaginary friend, everything would've worked out. "Oh so neither of us is Vision? Huh. Ight then peace."

[@TheCountOfMommysCrisco]

I think this was the answer White Vision touched on when he said 'Both of us are... Neither of us are'.

[@MrDragonorp]

@@TheCountOfMommysCrisco both are the vision, without the memories he wasn't a true vision, but with the memories, white vision was linked back to the string called the YOU/soul of the mindstone, a soul is separate, its an integral part of the universe outside of time and space, the soul stone showcases that. when white vision remembers he is linked back to the vision which is the string of YOU of his like the fake vision was when Wanda created him.

[@ianbarrow4087]

I think with what Noam is saying isn't that both are vision and both aren't but that the question itself is essentially nonsense. The question is asking something that only makes sense linguistically but in reality isn't possible. They are both clearly different from the actual vision who also its important to point died.

[@ActuatedGear]

@@ianbarrow4087 Chomsky is essentially nonsense.

[@gu4xinim]

​@@ActuatedGear Like the person Chomsky? The Idea of Chomsky? Why the generalization? The idea presented is pretty sound.

[@JenomKolemjdouci]

"I can't breathe right now because what if Chomsky's right" is my new favourite Wisecrack quote!

[@pumpkinspicetrashbag]

The real mephisto was the friends we made along the way

[@BarronVonSchnoot]

Man oh man, I just got off work from a really long day. The first two months of working from home was a breath of fresh air, now I just feel completely drained. Some mornings, like today, I wake up to a meeting notification and roll from bed to my desk.

[@jaytheaqua2795]

@@BarronVonSchnoot oh ....kay?

[@BarronVonSchnoot]

@@jaytheaqua2795 the work from home routine has become much easier to deal with. I have found that waking up earlier and adding a light work out helps to add a separation between my work and personal life. I traveled to Portland Oregon recently and saw 4 car crashes in 3 days. I think the roads are too narrow.

[@tara_hasnoclue]

I am a philosophy student and I swear seeing this in WandaVision made me so happy. I love how many different points of view and different works from philosophers you brought into this. I just found this channel but man I'm definitely subscribing now.

[@o0Avalon0o]

It's upsetting that i only just realized Wandavision wasn't just a pun with television, but Wanda & Vision's names combined.

[@gavinhumphries7020]

Michael, I think you've really grown into a great personality and it makes this content super enjoyable, I love seeing you host

[@hurley0013]

loved the hot sauce joke.

[@jhedjoardumago7691]

But is he still the same guy he once was 😱

[@jaytheaqua2795]

@@jhedjoardumago7691 neither of them is....they both are

[@ODISeth]

The real Vision was inside a boat all along

[@cybersquire]

This is the correct answer.

[@lemonyanva1976]

Nah...he was the boat

[@Shandrii]

Who's been messing up everything? It's been real Vision in a boat all along

[@FirebirdPrince]

Honestly this is why I love the Vision character in the MCU. He just get deep for epic moments like this.

[@xenoverse7492]

Me after watching the finale of Wanda Vision : "I request elaboration"

[@kylemccormack1785]

"I can't breath right now because what if Chomsky's right?" is a known feeling

[@o0Avalon0o]

This makes me want to binge some Chomsky.

[@FezzRosato]

Hot take: It stopped being the Ship of Theseus when Theseus died.

[@kdomkat3178]

My man speaking true facts

[@lordhades8025]

Funny thing: The story ends with Theseus growing old and alone with no friends and no family. So he sleeps on his ship but the rot is so severe that that mast falls over and crushes him. The ship killed Theseus.

[@Pichipichiprincess]

@@lordhades8025 pretty sure that was Jason, not Theseus

[@lordhades8025]

@@Pichipichiprincess That's right!

[@FezzRosato]

@@lordhades8025 I did not know that and find that hilarious lmfao xD

[@avi_rivera]

It just occurred to me this kinda touches on the idea that Balde Runner brought up, whether memories make us human because we’ve experienced them, regardless of how they’re made.

[@AshGCG]

Trigger brought this up in Only Fools And Horses decades ago. "This old broom has had seventeen new heads and fourteen new handles."

[@SurprisinglyDeep]

Are they solid replica or same brand heads and handles? Or different ones?

[@na5567]

@@SurprisinglyDeep Would it matter?

[@SurprisinglyDeep]

@@na5567 It's the difference between a being that despite minor biological changes over time has essentially remained the same versus a being that has radically mutated over time

[@RipFreddy]

My mans inhales through his nose whenever he's done talking and I cannot unnoticed it :(

[@yasmin9473]

Someone has to appreciate how perfect paul bettany's robot voice is ❤️💕

[@iamjoshuaiam]

not mee

[@Meme033094]

I love that when vision comes online he sees a reflection of himself

[@Camaxtli]

I love how many existential crises happened in this episode.

[@huntingclimbsamongotherthi5368]

"I think this is what it's like to take DMT" Joe rogan has entered the chat.

[@Soonerblake007]

"Jaime pull up the video"

[@PeterPorty]

I just want to mention that there's only superficial similarities between the montage and taking DMT.

[@yehat17]

Joe Rogan doesn't have to imagine what it's like. He's done it

[@vitreo1363]

Vision "Ship of Theseus" JARVIS

[@DynamicPhil84]

This is why I love the MCU. Over the past few years, the stories and characters have gotten much deeper and more philosophical and the action has started to become a compliment to these varying ideologies, instead of the sole reason for watching.

[@AlanGarciaC.1093]

This video was so good that it earned my subscription. Great analysis. Personally. I go with the Buddhist perspective that "Identity" is devoid from an , and it is rather a . Which ultimeately kinda ends in the Lockean way; if one's identity isn't in the everchanging body or in the everchanging mind, then it is in the act of remembering past experiences and being influenced by those experiences in the present.

[@RicardoPetinga]

I think White Vision's recovery of his memories must have overridden his recent programming to destroy "the real vision", and to kill Wanda as well, because that's who he went for first, and he certainly didn't go back to try to finish that mission. His memories allowed him to become himself again, to recover his identity (that SWORD successfully suppressed), and with it the free will he seemed to have before (then again, that may have been an effect of the Mind Stone, which he no longer has, so now he may be more like a regular but extremely advanced AI, like when he was just Jarvis, or like Ultron, than a synthezoid with a soul). I don't think he's going to self-destroy, I think he's retreating to go assess the current situation, because there is a lapse of time between his death and his "rebirth" and reprogramming by SWORD and he doesn't really have a full grasp of what's going on. So he's probably going back to SWORD to learn what has happened inbetween and determine what's the best course of action. It would be foolish to go to Wanda immediatly after trying to kill her. I'm kinda worried I'm sounding like a robot, but I guess it's because I'm trying to put myself in his place. lol

[@battleandjams]

Saying "none of this matters" and "there's no point in creating this problem that doesn't need a solution" is the trump card in philosophy.

[@bensonprice4027]

You brought attention to your allergies early in the video and now I hear every sniffle like a gunshot going off at book club.

[@Slipknot4769]

This is my favorite scene in all of WandaVision. I just love logic and brain teasers, including paradoxes. Also, I personally think that once White Vision obtained his memories, he then possessed all the original materials + the memories, making him the new, and real, Vision. And I hope he makes a triumphant return in the future.

[@DanielAppleton-lr9eq]

The Ship of Theseus was used by Steve Shives in a discussion about whether the starship Enterprise in Star Trek : TMP was the same Enterprise from the original series.

[@mikeflannery7905]

It could be argued that red vision wasn't vision at any point, but an entirely new creation made by Wanda, a fun parental figure that fits in her new reality, not like the version we saw in Infinity War. He had neither the memories, the body Nor the personality of the original Vision.

[@MrMWalfa]

Maybe. Later Wanda tells him that hes a part of the mind stone that got attached to her somehow, so he has one aspect of the original vision. The personality was more emotional and funny but maybe thats because the mind stone (what gave emotions to the original vision) was over control. The original vision had the mind stone, a part of uploaded ultron, JARVIS, all of them fighting for control, so I would say the hex vision (only the mind stone) is only a strong emotional part of the original vision.

[@DrustZapat]

I couldn't stop hearing him sniff after he mentioned it. Would I have heard him sniff without him saying anything, or did he force me to focus on it intentionally?

[@DR3W_TH3_ARTIST]

*Me: Wisecrack is covering the Vision and Vision discussion!?!?! 👀👀👀 *Wisecrack: naturally

[@heathers.9740]

I also really enjoyed how they did this in WandaVision. I would hope White Vision is going after Hayward because hopefully he has realized how used "Vision" was to become a weapon.

[@kjj26k]

Hayward was arrested. I'm pretty sure wherever this new Vis is going, it's far away from violence.

[@Phantom9252]

"What is me? My memories, my body, or my mind?" Joke's on you, I don't even believe I exist. Get on my level.

[@IceMetalPunk]

I want to elaborate a bit on the memory concept, but from a neurological perspective. When we talk about memory, we often think of it as one thing, but in our brains, there are actually three major (and DISTINCT) ways of storing memories. There are episodic memories, which is what we usually think of when we talk about "memory": these are memories of experiences that we personally had. Things like your fifteenth birthday, or your first kiss, or you eating breakfast today. Then there are procedural memories, which we often call "muscle memory": these are memories of how to perform actions. So for instance, you could have amnesia and lose all episodic memory of who you are or what you've experienced, but still remember how to walk, how to speak, how to tie your shoes and ride a bike and drive. And the last type of memory is called semantic memory: memories of things you know but which didn't happen to you personally. So while you may have an episodic memory of sitting in math class, you have a separate semantic memory of the trigonometry you learned that day. Because these different types of memory are physically and functionally different within the brain, it supports your point here: knowing about things that happened to Vision isn't the same as retaining episodic memories of those experiences, and it's a pretty strong argument that the collective set of episodic memories, specifically, defines a person's identity. In that case, the Hex Vision doesn't have any of those episodic memories, so he's not really Vision. But at the same time, White Vision didn't have any of those memories, either, so he also was not really Vision... until those memories were unlocked, at which point he became Vision again. However.... as usual, it's not that simple. Because although White Vision now has all those episodic memories back, and all the original material of Vision's body, and all its wear and tear... there's a high chance he won't act the same due to missing the Mind Stone. And a total personality shift would seem to suggest he's someone different, because he thinks and behaves differently. BUT -- because it's still more complicated than that -- there are plenty of neurological and mental illnesses that can alter a person's personality entirely, without changing their body or their memories. We might say they're "someone else", but do we mean that literally? Are they literally a different person when their behavior changes? And does that mean a person's identity is really encoded in their behavior more than their memories or material? But if that's true, then as we get older and grow as people, if we have different ideas and behaviors than we used to, have we become someone new? Identity is hard.

[@CBSP_]

I was going to say that you can't code these differences, but you actually can... And realizing this made my brain explode. LMAO I need to sleep.

[@IceMetalPunk]

@@CBSP_ From a computing perspective, it's actually pretty simple to code the different types of memory 😃 "Is the data I'm storing a sequence of robotic control instructions? Save it to the Procedural folder. Was it obtained through language processing or some other AI system? Save it to the Semantic folder. Is it a mostly raw record, with maybe a bit of processing, of sensor data? Save it to the Episodic folder."

[@rgreen7313]

@@IceMetalPunk All of that was indeed mapped, encoded, coded and stored along with the physical connections and pathways allowing for recall by a little Princess in Wakanda. At the point of Corvus Glaive interrupting the process; the true emotional Vision has been duplicated minus the memories of Hex Vision and White Vision.

[@IceMetalPunk]

@@rgreen7313 I don't know if we have any confirmation that the emotional patterns have been copied? Memories, yes, but patterns?

[@zakcrooks6469]

It’s not a true vision fight without some sort of philosophical debate

[@TheCountOfMommysCrisco]

The fact that they spend the entire episode trying to super-laser one another, only to break into this debate and have it be the resolution to their conflict - It really says a lot about the writers for the show and how well they understood the characters they were working with. This scene was a highlight of the series for me because it was just so perfectly Vision.

[@dissonanceparadiddle]

Since wanda did what she did I see no reason safe couldn't merge the mind of the first vision with the one she made.

[@theswagman1263]

Almost guarantee something like that will happen

[@Fenrisboulder]

No now both are clones

[@dissonanceparadiddle]

@@Fenrisboulder it's the damned ship again Theseus again. Also I can't help but think about the oney plays/american dad joke that says clones have the same memories 😅

[@evansageser6943]

This presents a new ethical conundrum though. Regardless of who is the “true” vision, both are certainly sentient and have an independent mind. If we merge the two, doesn’t that mean that some part of both of their minds is being overridden by the inclusion of the new mind? Is there even continuity of consciousness? Or is she just killing two visions to make a new one?

[@dissonanceparadiddle]

@@evansageser6943 vision be like *windows system message* " override files? Rename and keep both?

[@tylermanley5601]

I think the question: “Are you your mind or your body?” Has a bit of an obvious answer to it. You are your mind. In the movie Freaky Friday their minds are put into each other’s bodies and then have to act like the other one would, because if they acted like themselves then people would think they aren’t acting like themselves. Another reason I believe is when someone passes away more often than not I hear the person’s body referred to as that person’s and not that person. And lastly. I’m Christian so it’s kind of a big reason I gotta go with it. Crazy turns out he brings up Freaky Friday

[@dannymartial7997]

The paradox isn't really a paradox. As soon as you replace the first plank of wood from the original ship, it's no longer the original ship; it's a modified version of the ship. If you replace 50% of all the wood, and then created 2 ships each with half of the wood, then you'd have 2 modified ships... If you replace EVERY plank of wood from the original ship with new wood, you'd have a completely different ship. And if you reconstructed a full ship out of the original pieces of wood, then you'd have the original ship again. It's only a paradox if you assume replacing the wood would keep it as the same ship... It's a problem with the language and how you call it, not with the physical property of the ship itself. Think of this: you rent a car, the rental company says you must return the car in the original condition, otherwise you'd be charged. If you replaced one of the side mirrors, in the scenario with the ship, philosophers would've considered that rental car to be the same car even though in reality, we know for a fact it ISN'T the same car; it's a modified version of the car, thus not created some stupid paradox that delusional philosophers dreamt up..

[@LowLevelWarrior]

This reminds a me of a scene of a movie with much simpler answer: "-You?" -"Yes me...me,me,me..." -"Me too." (-agent Smith)

[@marymimi11]

The moment I saw this scene I thought this is the most Vision final fight to ever happen 😆. I'm glad you made a video about it!

[@ianjohn2648]

Note to self: Self, don't do two dabs and then watch Wisecrack videos.

[@explorten]

You tripping?

[@drewwagner5227]

I think the fact that the truman show exists, is already proof we don't live in a giant dome being broadcasted to the rest on the world

[@dradel2050]

Now imagine the intern that got scold for making such a risky show inside the dome.

[@electriccruiser7796]

In conclusion I’m either my mind, my body, my memories, or absolutely nothing. 😂

[@animax2422]

I personally believe in the "nothing" one. Basically there is no "ship", a "ship" is a concept made by us to rationalize reality. And the paradoxes that come with it are just cues of how failed the idea really is.

[@xXxLegolas007xXx]

Arent we all a diffrent person now in contrast of when we were younger ? In so many aspects. Time gives us so much memories and things we learn that change seem almost inevitable.

[@BeeThief]

I heard that Coldstone assassins had to sing a song if you gave them a tip.

[@ryanh3635]

*Wisecrack contributer has video idea* Michael: I HAVE A PHILOSOPHY DEGREE!!!!

[@jamesrichie7844]

This moment in the show felt like a great aknowledgement of Vision 2015 (Tom King). In that series, Vision used the information stored within his data bases to scan frameworks of ethical philosophy and religious doctrines to decide how to handle a difficult moral dilemma.

[@jboyd85]

Mind, memories, body.... I know it isn't really topical, but is it time to cover Douglas Hofstadter? 'I am a strange loop', and 'Godel, Esher, Bach' before that. I've still never found a more compelling argument for how identity, suchness, and my place in the cosmos come together than his 'I am a strange loop' concept. I still assume that when I eventually die, my loop will spin out into culture, the largest tangled hierarchy - the place we all came from and return to. Big fan of the deeper philosophical content - keep it up! I want my edutainment to actually feed me. These rations are... adequate.

[@boanoah6362]

One thing to remember is that our brain really doesn't 'replace' itself, it's as old as you are even if some bits of it can regrow. Hence we really aren't comparable to the Ship of Theseus since our brain is arguably the same as our 'soul'.

[@Douglas_Props]

2:11 To skip the AD

[@crimsonraen]

Thanks for the video! My roommate is a philosophy grad student, so this scene was pretty fantastic, as it was basically how my daily conversations go. LOL

[@freddyjosereginomontalvo4667]

Wanda and Harkness: Give me your powers!!! No!!!! Vision and Vision I request elaboration The ship of thesseus

[@rociosilverroot2261]

I’m late to the discussion, but many who have lost loved ones express the feeling that the corpse of their loved ones is not really their loved one. Mentally, the mourners recognize the body is in the casket, but, in that memorial, emotional center of their minds, their loved one is ‘gone’. So I think Chomsky has a place at the table in this discussion because perception is an issue here.

[@ahlpym]

But if we are our memories, then a dead body is no longer that person. A dead brain can't recall a memory. If we are our minds, then the same idea applies. The mind is what the brain does, and a dead brain doesn't do anything. A dead brain isn't thinking.

[@jerrysmith6719]

I have always considered this thought process and applying it to music groups.

[@WisecrackEDU]

That's a very good idea/point. As a Deadhead, I think about this a lot.

[@moosehole646]

"Is that a student?" "Technically it's a ferret." "But what about metaphysically?"

[@lidular]

I was so happy about that way of solving the problem. I was so afraid they were going to just fight it out

[@exab1264]

Female: "Fighting!!!" Male: "Ship of Theseus"

[@dwei3045]

Subscribed because your sense of showmanship, humor, and eagerness actually feels genuinely fun. Hope you keep on this non-over-the-top or non-over-eager personality and i'll be a long term sub!

[@linuxrant]

The funniest thing is that they do have this conversation actually in a library :) I like the creators sense of humour :)

[@darkcat282]

Do "The Philosophy of Who Framed Roger Rabbit."

[@SplitSniper7]

"nothing is true everything is permitted."

[@talideon]

Wrong franchise, I'm afraid.

[@SHDUStudios]

This was the best scene in the entire damn show.

[@sporovid5856]

My take: drawing borders between objects originated as a survival mechanism, like most things in psychology. It’s useful to be able to tell a predator apart from the tree behind them. But reality does not function this way on longer timescales. If you could experience time more slowly, everything from your perspective would be zipping around in blurry lines, moving in and out of one-another. Your body dies and decays, and your atoms move inside of the scavengers who ate you. You are now them. Basically, humans arguing about the Ship of Theseus is like two hairs on your scalp arguing about who’s who. They appear separate to themselves, but are merely pieces of a greater whole. In the same way, we are all the universe.

[@wesleywalkerthewriter]

Chomsky needs to sit down and have talk with a person who has suffered a traumatic body injury, such as someone who has lost a limb or limbs in an accident... but then Chomsky has a bad habit of pretending to have authority about things that he isn't actually qualified to have. A person's identity is intrinsically linked to their mind. It is merely attached to their body. William Gibson's Neuromancer has a character whose "personality" is captured onto a specialized computer, and that person, with the help of the MC, regains some kind of self awareness and becomes cognizant of his condition (that he was just a copy of a dead man). Interesting thing to consider.