Who is Worse? Griffith vs Zeon - feat

[@LazyBazooka]

Griffith sold his ass for $20

[@DillHouston-w4s]

$20 is $20 bro 😂

[@jaffarebellion292]

He would've sold that shit for a Klondike bar.

[@salamiskeleton8704]

It was a very crisp 20

[@JaMeshuggah]

You are just jealous nobody will pay for yours

[@antthefool7637]

Them dollas made him holla alright

[@blueorchid1313]

Zeon might have a big kill count, but Griffith fucked up reality itself

[@RogueFox2185]

Zeon did war crimes for the grind, while Griffith clapped Casca to establish dominance over Guts. They both like to do some tomfoolery.

[@cronagorgon6435]

Zeon did war crimes for the grind. Griffith did the grind (on Casca) for war crimes.

[@Wheebzee]

I feel like Griffith was definitely imagining Guts in the place of Casca

[@TheDeagster877]

Griffith had it all and risked it for some mid princess action

[@LevantineR1]

It ain't called Tenland, that's for damn sure.

[@gathenhielm9977]

@@LevantineR1 Fucking hell, that actually made me laugh.

[@theravenousrabbit3671]

I'm not sure if I would boil it down to that. Griffith was a person of sacrifice. He gave everything up for his dream, to the point where his dream was in control of him. He sacrificed his friendships, his humanity, his body and eventually, all of the people who had come to view him as a Hero. He gave up everything for absolutely nothing, or, in hindsight, Godhood. Femto is an empty, soulless character, just like Griffith.

[@LunarLocust]

Not only was she mid, she was daddies sloppy seconds

[@brainiac.computer]

@@theravenousrabbit3671 this is an interesting perspective on the character. That explains his sporadic appearances post Eclipse. He’s achieved Godhood at the expense of those who’d followed him to the ends of the Earth (the Hawks), even has a kingdom of his own, and yet he’s not satisfied with it. He wants absolute power, to the degree that nobody could stand to oppose him. This point stands given that he now wants a war with the Kushans Empire.

[@howdoilogin]

I'm gonna say Griffith is worse, and here's my justification: Zeon and Griffith both permanently alter the world(s). We can talk about capacity for evil and comparisons to historical figures and innocent people and all that, but here's the kicker: when Zeon kills someone, they're dead. Even when they're pulling a Dynamo from Mega Man X5 and destroying the majority of the habital life on Earth, they're just killing people. Griffith? He went from dooming everyone he ever cared about to suffering in Hell forever (regardless of their actions in life) to outright being a False Messiah leading hundreds, possibly thousands of innocent people to not only dying at the hands of the hydras and dragons he dragged into reality but also having their eternal souls damned to Hell to suffer until their sense of self is entirely replaced with nothing but a constant state of pain. At least if Zeon nukes me I'm dead and done, with Griffith I go to the Eternal Pain Dimension to suffer pain for eternity.

[@loneronin6813]

I agree completely! Also, Zeon's actions while brutal aren't as personal and vindictive as what Griffith did in his treatment of Guts, Casca, and his followers during his transformation into Femto alone. To Zeon, they are killing faceless individuals who are just seen as bodies and numbers. To Griffith, he is killing off and irreparably damaging those he knows personally, not just faceless numbers or racking up a body count. I realize this was covered but I only just heard that as I was finishing typing this, and I feel it bears repeating.

[@collette3428]

The Holy Trinity of Berserk Shitposting Griffith did nothing wrong Casca enjoyed it Guts deserved it

[@nont18411]

Three of the shitpostings of all time

[@seg162]

There are more than two people in this world who are genuinely convinced of all three of these things

[@hiruyabebaw807]

I ain't even heard that last one

[@theholygamer969]

​@@seg162 I bet In Praise of Shadows is one of 'em.

[@mateusfelipecardoso40kview3]

This is cursed!

[@95keat]

Im not too familiar with Gundam but Griffith is a literal demon who murdered reality itself to make life his fanfiction at the expense of literally every other living thing.

[@CosmicG777]

These guys blamed almost ALL the deaths in Gundam at the hands of Zeon. But the Federation probably had just as much blood on their hands. It's a war drama, their really isn't any GOOD sides.

[@loserinasuit7880]

​@@CosmicG777 WW2 media and its consequences have been a disaster for war storiesm

[@daniel8181]

Gundam is top-tier seinen. Zeon is kneejerk called evil by people who barely paid attention to the original series and watched nothing else, because they look kinda like nazi's and ww2 is a religion to westerners. In actuality, Zeon is the name of a "philosopher king" who is killed and usurped by a family with two particularly bad eggs in it (girhen and kycilla) that end up tricking their soldiers into doing some fucked up shit (gassing an unallied colony) in order to create a bomb big enough to take out the feddie's massive base deep underground on earth. The colony is knocked off course and accidentally destroys australia...somehow this is intentional, according to the fed lovers. They also conveniently forget that gundams are not like mobile suits, Char makes it look like mobile suits are comparable to the gundam project, but its only because he's literally a fucking space wizard. Gundams are basically nuclear weapons and regularly are used to devastate civilians. The second accusation is that the mentally deranged woman who tricks the princess into letting her make choices for her is somehow representative of the zeon philosophy when she blew up dublin. Finally, there is the time char forces amuro to fight him to the death by sending an old military base into earth orbit, which amuro stops only because zeon soldiers help him and the feddie soldiers, and the result is the "axis shock". People who hate zeon and blow the federation are at best anime-only, since book readers couldnt possibly be so wrong about the story, and they also seem incapable of paying attention when they do watch. They area likely also the same people who think the best outcome of AoT is all the eldians dying so the people in marley can feel comfortable.

[@mustardbiscuits9750]

And he once sold his butthole to accomplish it too

[@TheMatthardyv1]

@@CosmicG777 Ye. It's a lot more nuances than the video talks about. Soldiers or even just followers of zeon wanted independence while zabi's wanted power. Most evil of then was Gihren. EF sadly is complacent & too far detached from the common folk which leqds to cival unrest & leads to groups like zeon.

[@randomcenturion7264]

It's gotta be Griffith. This guy is pure evil.

[@ZeroDarkOmega]

Id sooner say Sieg Zeon and take up the cause of Space Noid independence via questionable methods than forgive Griffiths betrayal of his homies for a title.

[@daniel8181]

>not already saying sieg Zeon

[@theskreb6649]

I can't believe Loli was secretly Quinton Reviews this whole time

[@libertyprimus756]

Loli has stated in one of his live streams that he looks like Quinton Reviews and he hates it

[@junebug4004]

Shota is too strong, he breaks walls like it on sales.

[@Laughing_Shadow-w3e]

Counter point: Shota fumbles.

[@ttterg6152]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/hZjEaHZqntN8mqssi=iQ58PnlzWFa16XKB

[@Megatron_95]

Griffith is worse

[@krism.6598]

Zeon has more supporters because their crimes are more impersonal (bar stuff like Stardust Memories or 8th MS Team where they are made personal for some characters. But also because they have some characters that are likable or have some cool moments. Ramba Ral being a competent commander and pilot, but also having genuine redeeming qualities that get explored through future material. And that’s only one, same with Dozle and his last stand in the Big Zam to buy time for his troops and family to escape. Granted Tomino wanted to portray it as him becoming some demon of war, but there is still something heroic about it. Granted, this could be explained as offering parallels to the “Gallant foes” narrative surrounding generals like Rommel and Guderian, but the problem is that Tomino and others just kept making too many good characters for Zeon’s side. Also, the real villain of UC Gundam is Anaheim Electronics, imagine in our world if NATO had found out Northrop Grumman had been building jets not just for the US, but for the Soviets too and some random Nazi remnant groups in Bolivia. All for profit. That’s Anaheim.

[@pabloteixido2155]

Yep

[@MaverickhunterXZero]

War in the pocket shows the side of people who support Zeon.

[@networknomad5600]

Also not to forget, it was literal WAR. And no, Tomino didn't keep making too many good characters on Zeon's side, that's just how war is. You will absolutely have characters trying to do the right thing on all sides of a conflict.

[@networknomad5600]

@@MaverickhunterXZero I'd say most of the works made in the past 15 years show the good side of Zeon.

[@dpm365]

A big point a lot of people trip up on with Gundam is that later works make it explicitly clear the Earth Federation is pretty corrupt, with there being a theme that there are legitimate grievances to be had. The problem is that from the start the anti federation movement was exploited by bad people, and by ZZ gundam it became clear that all the good members of Zeon either died or joined the AEUG. Hell, Bright Noa joined the AEUG in Zeta to stop the atrocities of the Titans, basically a mix of feddie spec ops and glowies, but by the time Neo Zeon returned to the scene he joined back up with the federation because for all it's problems Zeon was worse. This isn't even getting into the nightmare of what happens later on in the UC setting, such as the literal feminist death cult of Victory gundam that was so on the nose they named one of their ships "Auschwitz". I think it boils down to a mix of people can't handle nuance and Zeon, despite being blatantly imperialistic, does brand itself as anti imperialistic. The low hanging fruit would be to just say people sympathize with Zeon because "muh space nazis", but I really think it does boil down to most fiction doesn't handle nuance well so they aren't used to fiction that does it decently. Basically, people see one side has blood on their hands and assume the person opposite them must be good, even as they sit atop a mountain of bodies.

[@MaverickhunterXZero]

You have to remember that the Colonies were held as lower-class to the EF. Which is why they formed the republic in the first place. The Zabi family used his death to take power and that's when Zeon started causing problem. even in 0079, many soldiers were not keen on what Zeon and the Zabi family was doing. Also, it is pretty hilarious with that Victory Gundam bit. Seeing as someone rewrote Mienkomf as a feminist piece and it was praised for it. It's like they predicted the future.

[@PonderingSai]

Couldn't have said it better myself. Besides, later UC Gundam stuff (followed by G Reco and/or Turn A) make it clear it probably didn't matter anyway because thousands of years later things still suck. Zeon quickly becomes a drop in the bucket by comparison, though I suppose they do still get special mention for being first to really kick things off.

[@networknomad5600]

@@MaverickhunterXZero This. The colonies were oppressed and had minimal representation if any in the EF. They were basically vassal states with very little autonomy. Also, the EF invented colony cleansing in response to Spacenoid peaceful protest. When you know how the EF operated and their crimes, you start to understand how Zeon could come to such an extreme act like dropping colonies and meteors on Earth.

[@MaverickhunterXZero]

@networknomad5600 Yeah, but some don't want to get to that conclusion because of what the Zakus and Zeon troopd look like, and Federation sounds more good guy-like.

[@daniel8181]

If gundam is being nuanced: "Wow, Zeon are literally monsters, they deserve genocide" If gundam is not being nuanced: "Wow, Zeon are literally monsters, they deserve genocide for forcing cripples to kill children piloting mobile suits to form a living shield wall." It is amazing to me how dull people can be. I read people online actually mad at Hathaway and wanting to see him killed in the movies because he dared to create mafty, even funnier is that they want to point to the taxi scene as hathaway getting "owned" but seemingly forgetting that right before that feddies showed up to do nothing but fire live ammunition into housing complexes and arrest children for not having their papers.

[@blackosprey2219]

The only reason Griffith doesn't have a 5 billion kill count is because he doesn't live in a futuristic scifi setting with a massive human population, and he's probably still in the setup stage of a mega-atrocity. Whatever he's trying to do with Falconia will probably have a death/population ratio proportional to the Gundam genocides.

[@silentecho92able]

That is true if Griffith lives in a far off future Sci-fi world, full of robots and planet destroying weapons. I would go far and say he would fit quite well in 40k universe as a member of Chaos. An considering Berserk has just entered the end stages of its story, im sure what Griffith is going to pull will be far worse then what is Zeon capable off.

[@SIGNOR-G]

​@@silentecho92able He is berserk Fulgrim. Now that i thonk about i wonder who came first... i think someone inspired the other.

[@beebus4020]

@SIGNOR-Ghonestly both have massive similarities with each other, tbh it could go both ways but I wouldn’t be surprised if 40k was first considering how similar Griffith and fulgrim are.

[@SIGNOR-G]

@@beebus4020 i like to think that its Miura that took inspiration. After all a lot of things in Berserk are west-inspired

[@puxtbuck6731]

@SIGNOR-G Fulgrim’s first appearance in 40K was in 2nd edition of the chaos codex in ‘96

[@skeltaldelegate5408]

In the debate of who was "worse", Griffith seems an obvious pick because while his crimes are at a smaller scale in quantity, he would kill just as many if not more than Zeon if he had the means, while I doubt Zeon would go as much out of their way to create as much suffering, despite their genocidal nature. Griffith sends his victims to Hell for eternity.

[@theodoreganymede2095]

Griffith doesn't care who he uses or hurts to reach his goals, he knew that before he got his hands on the egg. Point is there was never doubt in his heart with the shit he was willing to do, which explains why he was so distraught when he didn't get his way after Guts defeated and left him. Not that there's any backstory to him either, otherwise that would've been brought to attention. Which I suppose is different from Zeon because War is Hell, I don't know anything about Gundam beyond the one-eyed robots but war is hell no matter where you are. What price are you willing to pay to ensure the continuation of you and yours taken to the extreme.

[@theholygamer969]

Griffith didn't view the Hawks as friends, but it's not because of what he claimed to Charlotte, where he said a true friend would have to be an "equal" in his eyes. It's because he viewed his men as possessions. Toys for his war game. A means to an end, and nothing more. But then Guts came along, and while Griffith tried his damnedest to make sure Guts knew he BELONGED to him, dehumanizing him right out the gate... ...Guts not only didn't catch onto that red flag, but in the following years, Guts' sincere nature and longing for companionship rubbed off on Griffith. But Griffith didn't view this as a positive. That part of his humanity DISTRACTED him. It was an obstacle that got in the way of the kingdom he wanted. Griffith didn't want to think about the guilt he felt from all the people who died for his cause. He wanted to PURGE it. To cut out that chunk of his humanity. Griffith sacrificed the Hawks, particularly sticking it to Guts and Casca, because 1) he wanted to punish them for DARING to defy his control, since to him, they were his property, and 2) he couldn't afford to keep them around anymore, because he had grown too attached to them, and he didn't want anymore distractions between him and his kingdom. But it didn't go through the way he planned. The Skull Knight intervened and SAVED them. They're still alive. So now Griffith has a dilemma. He has to deal with keeping the empire he stole (it once belonged to King Gaiseric), but also his grudge/longing for the two people who wanted to be a genuine friend to him. He already slighted Guts and Casca on a nightmarish level, so there's no making peace with them. He can only try to ignore them. But if the recent chapters are any indication, he failed miserably at that. Since they're still alive, he wants to try and put them back under his control, but with so many factors working against this, he's doomed to topple his own house of cards. But we've yet to see how that happens...

[@cabnbeeschurgr]

Excellent comment, Griffith has gotta be one of the best written villains ever

[@georgelincolnrockwell6248]

>Who is Best? Fixed it for you, champ.

[@TheSutanian]

>Who’s the better genocider?

[@georgelincolnrockwell6248]

@TheSutanian Well that one would be Zionism, but between the two options; definitely Griffith.

[@TheSutanian]

@@georgelincolnrockwell6248 I agree with the double meaning of this post

[@MrHitmancheg]

Gihren didn't unravel the fabric of reality. Say what you will about Gihren and his family, but at least Zabis kept things physical, not metaphysical (for the most part).

[@crazymcgee3604]

To play Devil's Advocate, Griffith needed magic to kill, maim and torture as many people as he did. Zeon did it with technology that we have access to now and managed to kill, IIRC, half of the human race (~6 billion people in early UC 79) using nerve gas, nukes and virus bombs. That says nothing of Sydney, Australia. Even at our worst our leaders would never deploy that kind of destruction without considering the MAD doctrine; the Zabis did it as little more than a simple battle strategy.

[@ximthedespot4673]

Zeon's kill count: 5,000,000,000 The Yuuzhan Vong: Those are rookie numbers. Gotta bump them up.

[@viren-ab1063]

Imperium of Man: Amateurs!

[@edwardcollier7218]

ICOG: Lol, lmao

[@lelagrangeeffectphysics4120]

@@edwardcollier7218 ICOG just feels like absurd grimdarkness that exists solely as some redditors ultimate trump card of grimmy darkiness for karma points, its utterly pointless

[@ashockmizer914]

50.000.000 in space and 100.000.000 on Earth a massacre war crime record

[@ximthedespot4673]

@ashockmizer914 The death count for the Vong War was 365 trillion people and countless worlds terraformed to unrecognizable.

[@eclipseslayer98]

I'd say that Griffith is probably worse. At least in context. Griffith basically subjugated all of mankind, and there's effectively no good way to fight against him. it might very well end up in humanity being eternally enslaved. Especially if *SPOILERS* IoE has anything to say about it. Meanwhile at least in Gundam, if humanity REALLY wants, they can spread out among the stars, and Zeon wouldn't be able to catch EVERY human fleeing. Plus there's people actually fighting them decently, so it's not a pure stomp like Griffith is doing.

[@callsigncoyote7931]

Zeon might have the higher body count but Griffith was more personal

[@omegadreemurr6271]

Sieg Zeon!

[@networknomad5600]

Indeed Sieg Zeon!

[@megajeremy90001]

Sieg Zeon!

[@joesmutz9287]

While Zeon did a lot of destruction in the short term, Griffith created a problem that will almost undoubtedly outlast him I'm not as familiar with the lore of Bezerk as I would like, but unless I am misunderstanding something, the demons he summoned will continue to be a threat to mankind after he is eventually gone Cities can be rebuilt, environmental changes adapted to. But a malevolent force being active in the world? That's not something that will ever truly go away

[@THERI0NdotAI]

I really enjoyed the opener collaboration skit, felt like a tgwtg throwback, but moderately self-aware

[@dpolaristar4634]

I think Griffith is worse because while Zenon might have caused greater casualties in different instances, Griffith fundamentally altered reality and the natural order of things well beyond anything he can personally do. He basically caused an event comparable to Original sin. Zenon did not alter the cosmology or metaphysics of his own setting. He basically just did the equivalent of punch a guy times a Billion. Griffith brought hell on earth.

[@ShouVertica]

Zeon has higher casualties but Griffith has a lot worse morality

[@whiteeye3453]

Imperium of man would beg differ

[@gilles4prezudent650]

You can make a case for Char having a point. But, to say he did nothing wrong is flat out incorrect. Forget about the entire principality.

[@tannerbarnes7392]

In the context of CCA, Char's point was a pretext to bring about another silly chapter in an ongoing dick measuring contest with Amuro, who has shown that he'd be happy to never see the bastard again. Char's point was as hollow, pathetic and fake as he was.

[@cabnbeeschurgr]

I can say I think what char did up to cca was justified, but that does not make it good. I feel like he was right but not morally good if that makes sense

[@lionheart1013]

Heres my slight counter arugment to Zeon: When people say "Zeon did nothing wrong" They're more specifically talking about almost all the soldiers of Zeon and not the Zabi Family, Haman Karen, or Char. Zeon's War was a War of Indipendence because the Federation was basically Strangleholding them like the British did to the American Colonies and Zeon wanted out they wanted to be indipendent from the Federation and not have to pay taxes and stuff. However the Wrong people got put in charge of Zeon time after time and turned basically revolutionist soldiers into warcriminals Thats the thing about Gundam it shows the Good the Bad and the Ugly OF BOTH SIDES the Federation were not Good guys they treated EVERYONE in space as second class citizens. Heck they did WORSE war crimes to people AFTER the one year war what ya think Zeta Gundam was about?

[@TheMatthardyv1]

Correct me if I'm wrong. But AUEG had funding from some people in the federation, former federation & other groups correct? After the dakar speech it somewhat became a "cival war" with AUEG with federation vs Titans & what ever groups in the federation sided with them? Neo zeon was the wild card in that war if I recalled. Gonna need to rewatch Z

[@lionheart1013]

​@@TheMatthardyv1 No your partly right The AEUG is the Anti Earth Uninion Group and are a Anti-Federation group formed to remove the Corruption within the Federation mainly the Titans but were primaily made up of Ex-Zeon Soldiers who stayed behind after Operation Stardust or didnt join Axis. They did accept any and all peeps regaurdless of background both feddie and civilians. And eventually they would form Londo Bell

[@networknomad5600]

THIS. The EF is the king of war crimes. People forget there's a 100 years of EF oppression before the OYW even starts. The colonies were oppressed and had minimal representation if any in the EF. They were basically vassal states with very little autonomy. Also, the EF invented colony cleansing in response to Spacenoid peaceful protest. When you know how the EF operated and their crimes, you start to understand how Zeon could come to such an extreme act like dropping colonies and meteors on Earth.

[@grayman4951]

@@networknomad5600 It's inaccurate to say that the Earth Federation was strictly oppressive towards the space colonies prior to the One Year War. A better way of putting it is that; due to how much of a bloated bureaucracy the Federation became, whenever anything bad happened to the space colonies, like a colony's space port getting damaged and becoming unusable due to incompetent Federation ship pilots (thus making it more difficult for that colony to receive supplies), the Federation was usually extremely slow to fix the issue, to such a degree that it bordered on being criminal negligence. This coupled with the aforementioned lack of representation made the space colonies feel as though they had no say and were largely at the mercy of the Federation's policies. Furthermore, the Earth Federation didn't invent colony cleansing. They certainly violently stopped protests during the leadup to the One Year War, especially after Zeon (the man) was assassinated, but they never "cleansed colonies" or whatever. You're confusing the actions of the pre-OYW Federation with the actions of the Titans, who literally did cleanse colonies using the same gassing tactic that was invented by Zeon.

[@abrahemsamander3967]

I think Griffith is evil in a more personal way. With Zeon it’s a war, it’s easy to call for bombings and drone strikes when you don’t see the people being killed. Griffith sacrificed his own friends, and did the worst things one can morally do, even if it didn’t benefit him in any way more then spite. But numbers wise Zeon technically killed more people.

[@Dunge0n]

The Austrian Painter didn't off himself, he lived out the rest of his days in Brazil.

[@raz2493]

didnt he go through the Agartha portal?

[@Qus-pi8kb]

The FBI was still looking for him after the war

[@brunooliveira-jx5uc]

I throught he was revived was a zombie wizard?

[@kyon813]

Bueno Dias, Mein Fürher!

[@thelordofcringe]

​@Qus-pi8kb the FBI was helping other ones hide so that's some pretty obvious distraction ops on their part.

[@LethargicGM]

Getting channel awsome vides from this crossover. Tis a nostalgic feeling.

[@AlvaTheWayfaringKnight]

Good to see another Micah. Praise the Sun! May your struggles be fruitful!

[@xiriusthesoulwatcher3955]

On the one hand, Griffith saved Guts and Casca from racemixing. On the other hand, Zeon personally delivered the colonies back to earth, all at their own personal expense. With how much Lawful Good is going on here, itd be really tough to say who is worse. Griffith ever get a speeding ticket?

[@Senator-Wary]

Loli is admittedly cooler because he has a fedora so he wins this

[@Snakedude4life]

Well, one committed war crimes, and the other one did a little bit of trolling. I’ll let the audience decide which is which. 🎩 🐍 no step on snek!🇺🇸🇭🇰

[@callsigncoyote7931]

“Guts, you’ve been punked. There’s cameras hidden everywhere”

[@brunooliveira-jx5uc]

​@@callsigncoyote7931"the arm is real tho"

[@georgelincolnrockwell6248]

Your war crime is my war good time! 😎

[@thealphaincel1619]

It's good that this was also uploaded on here, Micah would ban you for disagreeing with him and then he will go cry in his hug box on X.

[@klobb8557]

I love watching loli (the media reveiw youtuber and comic writer based in america)

[@georgelincolnrockwell6248]

FBI checking in, thanks for clarifying. Computer is still bugged, however.

[@ScottE-2]

TAL's section on Griffith was excellent. Not much context on Zeon but I think Micah's done a pretty good job painting a picture of what kind of bastard Zeon is.

[@TheGreatBig]

Both of them are evil, but it's better we ask ourselves why some people think these things unironically. Zeon was made as a clear example of fascism, and yet people seem to argue for it. In my experience, it tends to be because our immediate world is neoliberal, and so many young men feel abandoned by the neoliberal system that they want to cheer on anything that would logically oppose it. Acceptance has turned into bigotry and favoritism, and human decency into the enforcement of pronouns. In this world, is there really any question why we support the bad guy?

[@networknomad5600]

Well, let's also not forget that Zeon represents spacenoid independence... which is SUPER based. It's easy to see why people support Zeon, even with the war crimes.

[@nathanperquin9910]

@@networknomad5600 indeed the war crimes are not the goal simply the means that get us to the goal of complete spacenoid independance from the tyranical clutches of the corrupt federation

[@junebug4004]

If you think about it the real question is. Can Conan beat both of them?

[@wangusbeef86]

Conan > Guts

[@jo_smough]

Yes

[@EpicMinecraftFail]

yeah

[@giantmonsterman]

The Barbarian? Yes. The Detective? Also yes.

[@georgelincolnrockwell6248]

In raw combat? Zeon, yeah, at least if its one-by-one in melee combat and mobile suits aren't involved at all. Griffith? Well, I see Conan as a smaller, 'mortal' version of Zodd; and Griffith could allegedly floor Zodd yet I see Conan as being a warrior about on par with Guts in terms of skill, and Guts is about on par with Griffith (though I suppose that remains to be seen, Griffith ran like a bitch last time they came into contact in the manga, if I reckon). So, its probably more 50/50 there.

[@Henkact-]

26:16 if i remember correctly in the first Macross series, wasn't earths surface bombarded by millions of zentradi ships that essentially killed off nearly all of humanity?. or do remember it wrong?.

[@topcat59]

I very much believe that deep down Griffith is just a selfish child that has never grown up and has been living in a personal fantasy story were everything always goes his way and if it doesn’t he’ll make it so.🐱

[@bentwineham1986]

Did not expect TAL to talk on Gundam. Do more! I do think the question of who's worse is kind of meaningless, honestly. It's like asking if hitler or stalin were worse.

[@Kepora1]

Very nice video, and good breakdowns. I hate to be the "ACKSHUALLY" guy, but when it's brought up I gotta point it out because it's a MASSIVE misconception in the modern day: the Nazis weren't Fascists, they were National Socialists. Italy was the Fascists. The whole conflation of the two came from socialists trying to run cover for socialism, lmao.

[@galmekarch-fister1240]

I do love how many socialist conveniently misses that Germany and the USSR were allies once lol.

[@kindlingking]

​@@galmekarch-fister1240they were not. Otherwise Britain and Japan were allied as well.

[@zenormcclure9071]

@ kindlingking Look up the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

[@networknomad5600]

@@kindlingking That's cute. Sit down, kid, and listen to those who actually know a little bit of history.

[@kindlingking]

@@zenormcclure9071 look up Arita-Craigie Formula then.

[@BlitzedNostradamus]

Didn't know Micah was still around. Good to hear from him.

[@Rupture_EX]

I would say the comparison is kinda loaded since Zeon is a collective with multiple nuances and not everyone just agreing in lockstep which swings both ways and as loli said, there are some offshoots where zeon is humanized. Now if we are talking Zeon High Command vs Griffith is more where I think the discussion seems to be about, I do think Griffith individually outranks Gihren because there is an argument of "following the ideal" vs the active malice of Griffith and how dirty he gets his hands on, but then again the other Zeon leaders (Kycillia) DO have said malice and ulteriour motives. So probably Zeon just by numbers of villanous leaders, but its close, mostly because some things being just driven by stupidity, (Hi McQuve) or misplaced righteousness like with Dozle or Garma rather than pure evil.

[@Cogito-r6n]

Already know this is going to be peak

[@easonyeung2779]

Something to note is that on the part of Yoshiyuki Tomino being Japanese, Zeon was also partially based on Imperial Japan. This is obvious with their ostensible justification for the One Year War in that they claim they were fighting for Spacenoid independence from the colonial oppression of the Earth Federation. This is similar to how the Japanese justified their war in Asia as being an anti-colonialist action to free Asians from European colonialism. Much like Zeon, Japan wound up being much worse than the problem they claimed they were solving through the sheer intensity and quantity of atrocities they both commit. Additionally, their respective geopolitical (or astropolitical in the case of Zeon) positions are a mirror to each other as Japan is a series of islands poor in natural resources (which was one of the justifications for them invading other countries) that is very far away from their greatest wartime opponent with the Pacific Ocean separating them from the US. Zeon, conversely, is a series of space colonies-analogous to artificial islands in space-located on the far side of the moon-the farthest of any of the Sides located at the Earth-Moon Lagrange Points-that was lower in population and resources than the Earth Federation. Then we have Gundam Unicorn where it’s revealed that Full Frontal is planning on cutting of the Earth from its colonies and forming the “Side Co-Prosperity Sphere” which is a direct analogue to Japan’s planned “Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere” intended to form their own economic and political bloc in Asia to cut off outside Euro-American powers and to seat Japan as the definitive head of their own sphere of influence.

[@invaderzak11]

Sieg Zeon! Also Char did nothing wrong.

[@mysticdoctor251]

Dude 2 of my favorite KZbinrs in one video. Definitely going to be a top tier vid!

[@Senator-Wary]

Next lets compare who's more evil Tod from breaking bad or Lalo from better call saul

[@boskoboskovic1306]

While i agree that Griffith didn't kill as many people. After he became demon, those he did kill would suffer in hell forever.

[@bc9402]

As someone who loves both settings, it comes down to one simple question. Which is worse in your eyes? Evil born out of selfishness or evil born out of Benevolence? Both, at the end of the day, do the same thing, and bring about the destruction of entire people for their own ambitions. But differences are their justification and how they go about them. Evil for selfish reasons, is easier to dismiss and hate. It’s doesn’t hide what it is. Evil for the sake of benevolence (as Zeon tries to paint itself as) Is also just as insidious, because someone who believes they are doing the right thing, can justify any atrocity and see nothing wrong as long as it benefits the greater good in their eyes.

[@abrahemsamander3967]

Wow. You guys are doing a comic? Looks badass!

[@Rubedo2k10]

Griffith makes Gihren look like Ruben Studdard. Also have to count Zoltan’s actions on the list of Zeon’s crimes.

[@179107199999]

just tuned in I'm saying Griffith until the end and I'm a Gundam fan I Knew Zeon was bad and in fact I forgot how many colonies they dropped on Earth but Griffith by himself his personal actions are "worse" than Ghiren. I was an edgy guy back then and Loved Anavel Gato and Admiral Delaz even if their misguided actions created the Titans and doomed Marida Cruz in the future and caused the Federation to experiment on Children to develop cyber newtypes.... maybe I'm a rebel at heart? SEIG ZEON!!!

[@sinister6971]

Griffith merged the worlds bringing fantasy monsters like dragons and Giants to the rest of the world that wasn't prepared to fight that kind of a threat. Not to mention the implication that Griffith might sacrifice everybody in the New Kingdom Christmas is not only directly and indirectly responsible for a lot of deaths but a lot of those souls in the afterlife. Are likely going into hell sure the warlord killed billions but at least he's only wrecking them in life Griffith is screwing everybody he kills and likely throwing their souls into hell I honestly believe getting instantly killed by a meteor is much better to get ripped apart by a dragon or a another messed up fantasy monster just for my soul to go to hell because Griffith sacrificed his friends to be a Cthulhu 😂😂😂

[@YurinanAcquiline]

Agreed. Griffith merged the worlds. The whole earth is affected. Hundeds of thousands if not millions of people died to the new monsters introduced. And they are all doomed to eternal suffering. Zeon killed more but when you die, you die.

[@Lo-tf6qt]

With Zeon, you can *try* to justify some of their actions and *try* make decent arguments for them. With Griffith, you just can't justify betraying your men and friends who you've fought and bled with for years, just for a shitty knock off batman costume

[@shenotski]

Btw Space Runsway Ideon. Both races are killed off at the end. Also by Tomino

[@zudahkai94]

Thank you for using the gihrens greed strategy phase

[@SkylerMillerTheBronxProject]

Quinton being into Berserk would be the only good thing about him.

[@TheButterlord]

I learned recently that I'm like 3 degrees of separation from knowing quinton personally and that scares me. (Friend of one of my best friends sibling)

[@SkylerMillerTheBronxProject]

@ 💀 just imagine the war stories.

[@MaverickhunterXZero]

Didn't the Zabi family usurp power of Zeon by assassinating Zeon Zum Deikun since only Deqwin says he was the successor? This sends his surviving family into hiding, one becoming apart of the White Base crew and the other vow revenge. Considering it is a war and both Zeon and the federation committed serval war crimes, It's just one side prevailed and were allowed to sweep theirs under the rug - and you really cannot judge an entirety of a faction on the actions of the leaders, especially with how the Zabi family took to power. Many Zeon troops defected over the Zabi family leadership. The result of them losing the one year war, causes factions like the Titan becoming very much jackboot thugs, leading to AUEG no doubt mentioned in already. And, as Yoshiyuki Tomino himself said; _ZIEG ZEON!_ Griffith on the other hand you can judge a man based on what he does a lot of evil, is evil because evil.

[@TheMatthardyv1]

Yeah I remember tomino doing that at a panel. He was shouting sieg zeon with the crowd. Zeon can be pretty cool & interesting. I do agree it's too much of a broad stroke to say all of zeon is bad. If I recall Garma & Dozle & Ramba Ral are seen in a better light by most fans & in universe because they genuinely cared about spacenoids & their own men. Like overall Zeon was bad. But Federation is the better of the two & is heavily flawed & needs some form of reform.

[@networknomad5600]

@@TheMatthardyv1 Eh, naw Federation is garbage. The colonies were oppressed and had minimal representation if any in the EF. They were basically vassal states with very little autonomy. Also, the EF invented colony cleansing in response to Spacenoid peaceful protest. When you know how the EF operated and their crimes pre-OYW, you start to understand how Zeon could come to such an extreme act like dropping colonies and meteors on Earth.

[@MaverickhunterXZero]

@networknomad5600 My guess is Gundam Origins does that a bit.

[@TheMetalwolf77777]

I saw this earlier and it's just as good the 2nd time

[@Dunge0n]

"There's a deeply Semitic influence in the press. It is Semitic and I am sure of it. " -Patton, post-WWII

[@birdmann9529]

Oy vey

[@thelordofcringe]

Patton also executed Germans at every opportunity. Not so le heckin based ethnat, huh?

[@frankfrankerson782]

Patton tried to warn us and was murdered for it.

[@Murdo_ka_raja_4754]

Impressive. Very nice Let's see Griffith vs Johan in the did nothing wrong competition

[@isaackane4931]

The thing with Griffith is that I think a lot of people separate him from Golden Age to Post-Eclipse. Golden Age, he's extremely manipulative sure, but most of what he does mainly harms bad people who ultimately have it coming. From Julius to the Queen, excluding Adonis' death. Beyond that, it's just that he does put his men at risk in order for his plans to go through, such as the attack on the fortress. Not much of it is that heinous compared to what anyone else is capable of, he just has the ambition to see it through. People can more or less just see him as a good twist on the generic Fantasy-Hero concept, where that's how he presents himself, but we see deep down he's capable of underhanded things.

[@TheWolfgangGrimmer]

I mean, as unrelatable as Julius or the Queen might be from our perspective, their mindset is hardly controversial in a medieval setting. If anything, it's Griffith who is the outlier. Also, Golden Age Griffith is the reason post-eclipse Griffith exists to begin with, and they are the same person. He went through a long and excruciating character arc that made him lose what little humanity he might have had, it's not like he's Kyo or Bakuya with their magical DID syndrome.

[@abrahemsamander3967]

Cool. Didn’t know you and Micah were friends. Been a while since I saw his stuff.

[@venomouslizards]

I’d love to see a video on which is more evil, Zeon or the Titans?

[@mm-tb4sj]

I would say that imperium from Warhammer 40k is more genocidal

[@georgelincolnrockwell6248]

But compared to Chaos, Tyranids, and the Eldar? Wew.

[@cabnbeeschurgr]

Eh, everyone is comically evil in that universe so it balances out.

[@damien9683]

Griffith grapeing Guts girl while maintaining EYE CONTACT is devious work. Wait, he plowed a princess with Guts in his mind the WHOLE TIME....

[@tictacterminator]

How is Zeon evil? Is it because their name is 4 letters and they dress nice? I really don't see it.

[@TheMatthardyv1]

Zeon has good & bad people with bad & good leaders. EF well second verse same as the first. But EF is the lesser evil of the two but zeon has said some good points. A lot of gundam fans seem to forget this.

[@themumbler8389]

What I've learned from this is that Magnus did indeed do plenty of things wrong.

[@artdragon9466]

Griffith is a good guy in a world like beserk. He is a Shakespearean character. One of the greatest written, most complex characters of all time

[@InternetHydra]

I wish I could psychically examine the brains of the "Griffith did nothing wrong" people. I'm not angry, just utterly baffled.

[@RedHornSSS]

LMFAO THATS THE LAST COMPARISON I'D EXPECT

[@joaogabrielsilvadarosa9734]

0:28 -that is, of course, if you only assume they're only doing this just to be edgy or to troll on social media. In my recent experiences, there are a lot of people who genuinely believe a villain's actions were justifiable by shear virtue of having a "relatable backstory". I mean, just look at how people reacted to B-16/Megatron's actions in Transformers One. People actually believed he was right all along just because Sentinel Prime was the de facto villain of the movie. To the point that these same people were trying to do Optimus Prime dirty by calling him condescending and a hypocrite for daring to try to solve things peacefully (i.e. make Sentinel Prime face justice for his actions, instead of brutally killing him). People these days are more and more identifying themselves with evil characters because they can't (or don't want to) separate fiction from reality. They want their hate and paranoia in regards to real world people to be justified. So when the villain's arc is built on that foundation, they end up projecting themselves on them and, by identifying themselves with the villain, they try to justify it. In summary, it's the whole "this character is literally me" meme, but for the radical left people.

[@OD91MJ]

Aligning yourself with evil the way Griffith did is beyond being the worst. He also ruined Guts once chance and happiness. Which is just awful in my view. Guts deserved a lot.

[@wilsonriley1856]

If we’re bringing up body counts, LOGH belongs up there. The series is set at the end of a 150 year long war, with deaths in each engagement entering several million. The only difference between it and the two series covered is that humanity is much larger, and thus can actually sustain the casualties, and the fact that in most cases (with a major event during the Imperial Civil War being a notable exception) the dead are limited to serving military personnel, rather than civilians.

[@titusjames4912]

Zeon is no match for Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz. That guy demolished the earth. First try. Reduced the human population to two. Went into every possible timeline and demolished the earth. Then, he demolished the backup earth. Then, he created a Roko's Basilisk with infinite perception omniscience and omnipotence, so that it could destroy the earth for him in every possible time line. And he only did it to clear the solar system to build a hyperspace bypass (that may or may not have been built depending on the timeline) That's just to say, Zeon doesn't have the greatest kill count in all of science fiction.

[@whiteeye3453]

That kill count would be imperium of man

[@titusjames4912]

@whiteeye3453 The Vogons are just beurocrats tho. You hate them for their beurocracy. But they aren't evil like Griffith. (Well, there is a case to be made that the idea of evil and the idea of beurocracy are just as bad now that I think about it.)

[@whiteeye3453]

@@titusjames4912 what are you talking about?

[@titusjames4912]

@whiteeye3453 the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy.

[@spnked9516]

In terms of sheer number of deaths, Legend of the Galactic Heroes is probably up there. Ship losses for fleets are regularly in the tens of thousands, and even the smaller fleet ships boast crews numbers in the thousands. And those are just for space battles - battles on planets or breaks in logistical lines causing mass starvation or rebellion ratchet those numbers up a fair bit. Reinhard did nothing wrong.

[@whiteeye3453]

Imperium of man : amatures

[@TheWolfgangGrimmer]

I mean, Reinhard end Wen-Li were both agents _against_ the ongoing violence, although both faithful to the ideals of their respective factions. Their methods in both cases weren't without adverse consequences, but they both knew that.

[@leibnuuy]

The thing about Zeon is that whilst yes, Ghiren was exceptionally evil - Both the pirate fleets and Axis Zeon were made up of fanatical Ghiren loyalists who refused to accept the war was over. And then the sequel shows bend over backwards to show us that the Earth Federation sucks ass, totally monstrous cockwads in the top positions, complete ignorance of the people's needs, easy lines to atrocities of their own. At that point, you start to realise maybe Zeon Zum Deikun had a point before the Zabis co-opted it, and can sympathise with the common Zeon citizen/soldier's demands or independence.

[@Mr_1Ballwhale]

Donovan definitely did something wrong. I asked my friend who knows both shows and he said Griffith and I quote "Zeon killed billions dispassionately and from a distance. Griffith killed his comrades and people who considered him a friend, also he raped his most loyal follower".

[@adrian_veidt]

Gihren's greed showed what could've happened had Zeon won the one year war. But since Zeon lost, the world got worse and worse. Until the Earth Federation used an alien tech on a gundam and wipe out the planet.

[@SlaserX]

Char did nothing wrong. The Federation turned him into a villain.

[@justsomegrunt]

Well this was a nice surprise

[@abrahemsamander3967]

Griffith didn’t have a point, at all. I partially side with Zeon. Just partially. Aside from the Zabis. But then again, they’re still an unrealistic utopian ideology. Arguably, the Zabis were better than Char in this regard(aside from Giren, he was about as delusional.) they seemed to be more realistic in their idealism.

[@abrahemsamander3967]

And watching the video. Loli mentions this.

[@eddsrt4604]

I mean like any other war, if zeon had won they would be the good guys, But the idea of zeon isn't bad the problem was their leaders

[@CatsOverdrive]

The way I see this; it says alot about Griffith, that his scale of evil, that of a lifespan of an individual, could be compared to the evolution of a whole nation.

[@Eddieo9999]

Didnt the orignal meme not come from the 40k community with reference to Magnus did nothing wrong. As it can arguably be said he made some mistakes but didnt deserve the punishment he got.

[@shinryujin120]

I think the main take away from this is not every villain has a point nor do they need one to be compelling. I think back to Batman TAS and why characters like Mr. Freeze stood out because the vast majority of villains were just evil and psychotic. He wouldn't be as memorable as he was if Joker, penguin,Bane, had some point or noble goal themselves.

[@Lampoluke]

Zeon didn't mean to kill 5 billions, Grifis doesn't have the means to kill 5 billions but would in a heartbeat

[@speedkingoz5879]

Loli and shota face reveal? I don’t know if that’s his real face or not but let’s go

[@ScaryOGGG]

Griffith split about the God of Destruction in half and created an entirely new reality………

[@cannabyssbois2305]

what a crossover

[@stevenoconnor3256]

Legend of the galactic heros has a high body count. War is done on such a mass scale that large numbers of people die in each battle.

[@connoisseurofcookies2047]

The thing with fiction is that you have to judge the story that's being told. Any mook can write out "and Evan the Evil went out and killed a hundred trillion people, end of story". In this sense, Griffith IS more evil, because the author's intent was to demonstrate that he was evil and Miura did it better. It's not about the abstract of his action, i.e. Griffith did so-and-so from a third-person perspective, but HOW he did it and the judgement that you pass onto HIM.

[@ramaluminus]

objectively speaking, Zeon did the worst, dropping a space colony and dooming million even billion of people from current UC era to future era of UC. but IMO Griffith did the worst thing imaginable, he's betraying his homies.

[@jaffarebellion292]

For fans of The Expanse, we have Marco Inaros, the worst of both worlds. It's pretty great.