Who Would Win? Lionel or Williams Trainmaster? A not so successful experiment in pulling power.

Who Would Win?
Lionel or Williams Trainmaster?
A simple question
An unexpected result
A not so successful experiment in pulling power
A good time was had
Hope you enjoy the video!
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Thanks for watching!
Instagram: / dagryffyn
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Dagryffyn Hobby
PO Box 113
Hillsdale, NJ 07642
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Original song “Open” composed by James Kinne
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www.jameskinnemusic.com
All music used with permission from the artist
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The legal stuffs:
I have no affiliation with Lionel, or anything else for that matter, and my repair methods are my own based on what has worked for me.
I am not a professional but a passionate hobbyist. Your results may vary. I am not responsible for any damage resulting from any repair method. I am here mostly to provide inspiration and insight.
You can do it, grab your tools and get to work!
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#dagryffyn #lioneltrains #ogauge

[@momatmach1]

Top quality train playing, mostly silly but great fun

[@dagryffynhobby]

I’m ok with silly! 🙃

[@JDWorkshop-wn9tt]

I just got to watching this now. Great episode! I enjoy these performance experiments. All I can say is, the growl of the Lionel postwar and, MPC motors with the “E” unit buzz just takes me back in time!

[@andrewaugustyniak2765]

All good locomotives Dave. The train god's was with you! Plus you take good care of your trains.

[@dagryffynhobby]

Thanks! Yes, they smiled upon me that day for sure.

[@ChristopherBrown-mq1lg]

Interesting video 👍 love the Army switcher and center cab getting the job done! Very cool !

[@dagryffynhobby]

Thanks! I was surprised they did as well as they did.

[@billharrold6038]

I think your layout is designed so well and with the addition of the new Menards track and evenly placed power, that a less powerful engine preforms great. Nice work.

[@dagryffynhobby]

Thanks Bill. One of my main concerns was good smooth operation. I really appreciate it.

[@stever.5092]

Cool video. Hard to believe how much pulling power they have. I do like Williams & MTH stuff. With the history, charm and nostalgia of Lionel Trains, they are my absolute favorite. That was a great video!

[@dagryffynhobby]

Thanks Steve. The postwar trains will always be my first love, but I am trying to be more open minded these days. Little experiments like this help validate the other eras.

[@stever.5092]

@@dagryffynhobby I agree with you. It’s really surprising to see just how well they preform. All toy trains that bring happiness is a toy train worth having. Regardless of brand or era.

[@dagryffynhobby]

@@stever.5092 you are correct! If it’s fun, it’s for me!

[@loubro2372]

Great fun!

[@dagryffynhobby]

Thanks!

[@ronalddevine9587]

One of your best videos. I would love to see a 671 vs a 681. I also love the growl of the diesels with the open frame motors. Keep em coming!

[@dagryffynhobby]

Thanks! I think I did a 671 vs 681 a while back when I had four of them. I had a 671 that had a weight in it, that engine pulled almost as well as the Magnetraction version. The 671 without the weight slipped a lot though, but that could have been due to wheel condition. Either way, a turbine is classic!

[@ronalddevine9587]

@@dagryffynhobby AGREED. I prefer the turbines to the Berkshires.

[@northpennvalleysteamrailroad]

Wonderful video buddy!!!

[@dagryffynhobby]

Thanks!

[@jimmelchin1531]

A good check on performance. You just never know until you experiment. Great video...thanks Dave.

[@dagryffynhobby]

Thanks Jim. And experimenting is half the fun!

[@azslotracer]

That was a fun informative video! I was especially surprised by the number 41 army switcher! The Williams traction tire twin motor anything are hard to beat for performance.

[@dagryffynhobby]

Thanks! I really couldn’t believe the 41 pulled the cars at all. That was a fun one. I guess dual motors with traction tires are better than I give them credit for. I’ll just have to start stocking tires so I have them when needed.

[@daveprasse6643]

Awesomeness !

[@dagryffynhobby]

Thanks!

[@scpvrr]

Great video Dave. I tested the pulling power of my Lionel 222 last night. It is a forward-only, no magnetraction, fixed coupler “el cheapo” from 1962. It is amazing what it can pull for what it is.

[@dagryffynhobby]

Thanks Bill. I think most engines I’ve tested, other than my starter set from the 70s, pull decently. The 8300 2-4-0 just slips with even a modest load. But hey, I loved that thing!

[@wayneantoniazzi2706]

Dave, if there's any conclusion to be drawn from your experiments it's "You never know until you try!" I'd say the only thing the Williams Train Master gives up to the Lionel version is the Williams may run smoother, but it doesn't have that authoritative Lionel "GROWL." Aside from that, it's hard to beat a Williams for value. Did you notice on your video you can see the motor turning inside the Pennsy EP-5? That's cool! In my experience if the engine can't do the job it'll let you know, usually by wheel slips. A fun video as always! 😃

[@dagryffynhobby]

I agree that the Williams just doesn’t have the same presence, the noise is part of the fun of the old stuff. I did notice the spinning motor inside the EP5, kinda neat.

[@georgewhitacre8276]

Great video Dave! I only have one thing to say...the 226e is a beast! The fact that your engines are all fine tuned and cleaned is why they pull so well. Got 'em running ship shape. Really enjoy your videos.

[@wayneantoniazzi2706]

The 226e, "The Beast Of The East!" Well, it WAS made in New Jersey after all!

[@dagryffynhobby]

Thanks George. I love the 226e, such a great engine. I really enjoy running it. I try to keep them running smooth, most could use a spring cleaning though.

[@MESA-East-Model-RR]

That might be a top 3 video Dave. I really enjoyed it, had a good laugh and now I want to go and try this experiment myself. “You gotta be kidding me!”, the best part!

[@dagryffynhobby]

@@MESA-East-Model-RR glad you enjoyed it!

[@d.cthehobbyist2252]

It's good to see them older engine's getting love. Great video

[@dagryffynhobby]

Thanks!

[@MygrandpasTrain]

I'd say your experiment was successful! I'm impressed all those engines had very little or no trouble. I did an experiment like that in HO scale, the results were far different. Only two engines could tow 32 HO cars, an E7 made by LifeLike and a vintage HO American Flyer 060 with traction tires!

[@dagryffynhobby]

Thanks. It was a fun one to do. I was always very happy with my Life Like N Scale engines. Never had a layout big enough or enough cars to rest them though.

[@stevesoscaletrainchannel.1901]

Very good video, Williams are smooth!

[@dagryffynhobby]

They really are! Maybe lack a little of the growling personality of the Lionel, but make up for it with almost perfect running

[@traindude57theb12]

12:40: Dang, little engines really can do big things!

[@dagryffynhobby]

You never know when the little guy is stronger than you think!

[@traindude57theb12]

@@dagryffynhobby Too true my guy. 😌

[@davidstevens9002]

Great video Dave. Loved the concept.

[@dagryffynhobby]

Thank you!

[@PedrotheOscalecollector]

Hello I just bought a william fm train master crown edition and I bought a williams diesel u30 off of ebay the other day and I love williams diesel locomotive because it's always run and never stop

[@dagryffynhobby]

They are great! Nice additions for sure.

[@PedrotheOscalecollector]

@@dagryffynhobby yes

[@keithrobbins6312]

Dave a true testimony of your clean track, well maintained cars, and a great layout. Did you mix and match post war or test which cars needed to be in the front? Super experiment.

[@dagryffynhobby]

Thank you! Cars got moved around based on weight and coupler strength. If a car derailed I’d move it further back and try again

[@htssoutboardsboatstrains9784]

Fun video. My Williams F7 is a nice all wheel drive model, but my hacked Post War Lionel Alco's with a magnatraction A and either a hacked b with magnatraction or magnatraction A pulls a lot more , especially up hill :) AND to my surprise the later Lionel Alco's FA's with the two can motors out pulled my post war single motor ones :( Of course my take away is this is your excellence in mechanics to get those cars to roll on display. And for me, adding a couple of cheesy analog Volt & Ammeters added a lot of fun and information about how stuff runs to my goofy layout.

[@dagryffynhobby]

Thanks! I really need meters so I know what’s going on. It would just be interesting to know how much each engine requires to pull a load. I’ve heard that Magnetraction can fade over the years, so a once great puller may slip more than expected. I may have to add an incline at some point just for testing purposes!

[@mrsam6751]

A Highly entertaining Tour de Force !!! Go Go Navy Switcher!!!!

[@dagryffynhobby]

Thanks!

[@geodot595]

every engine you used is pulling just fine because you cleaned and lubed correctly. the proof is each took the load at very low volts. great job! and its now WARMER in there.

[@dagryffynhobby]

Thanks! Maintenance and a warm room make a difference for sure. Clean track would probably help, but let’s not go crazy!

[@tomrogers5516]

Great experiment video, Dave! I was taken by the speed of the 226E once it got going after short rough start off. Really speedy run! Also impressed with the run of the LRR power unit. But the Williams Fairbanks diesel unit is the overall winner, I agree. Thanks a lot, Dave.

[@dagryffynhobby]

Thanks Tom. I have to say, not everything performed the way I thought it would. Always fun to experiment like this. The Williams certainly was impressive

[@wayneantoniazzi2706]

I've noticed with most of the older Lionels that the running seems to improve once they've been around the track a few times, they "warm up," for lack of a better term, then hit their stride and perform their best. Almost like an old tube radio or TV set that needs to warm up before it starts working. Interesting phenomenon.

[@dagryffynhobby]

@@wayneantoniazzi2706 they definitely need a few laps to warm up. They always seem to run better and smoother.

[@Nathan5Chime]

Just wondering if you did any maintenance on the freight cars. Are the wheels all clean and axles lubricated? Everything was running great. Interesting test.

[@dagryffynhobby]

No recent maintenance performed. I did realize that there really weren’t any postwar cars in there, so that could account for some of it.

[@leverettrailfan5414]

Very interesting test... I have my theories as to what may have contributed to the success of so many of those engines The Williams doesn't shock me, the lower starting voltage makes sense for a can motor loco. It's also using very high quality can motors, I believe with flywheels- it'll easily beat the 2321's pullmors in a contest of smooth, low speed operation. But they should be of similar physical construction and gearing, and the 2321's manual states it can pull 25 cars on straight, level track. That's 25 cars with metal trucks that don't have 'fast angle' wheels OR needle-point bearings. It figures that with mostly MPC onwards rolling stock, the trains it can pull increase. I think part of the reason those traction tire locomotives worked so well, is because, well... rubber is grippy! At least when it's fresh. That can help compensate for a less heavy loco, but moreso combined with a little weight it can give those wheels more 'bite' on the railhead than if they were smooth metal. When traction tires get old, they grip less well, so that's a factor to consider... I also get the feeling that the PRR EP-5 is heavier than that Long Island Geep. Broad curves and clean track & wheels make a big difference. The only thing that completely perplexed me, was how on earth that little 41 did as much as it did! I can only assume it hadn't endured much wheelslip in the past, so the wheels weren't completely polished smooth, and maybe that somehow helped it out. But still... it looked like it moved far enough to take the slack out of most if not all of the train, what a shocker. I wonder how many 41s it takes to pull that consist well.

[@williamkolina3988]

Dave Williams is a great no frills engine.I have one that I fear will fly off the layout.they are pulling beasts.by the way great boxcar fleet

[@rexxumus]

As for the #41... there's something to be said for the Pullmor motors!

[@paulmancinelli5911]

I thought you were going to lash the Trainmasters together and see which one ate the others lunch. I did enjoy the actual experiment though.

[@dagryffynhobby]

Ooooooo a tug o war! Probably pop the circuit breaker with all that draw.

[@ZillaJr2005]

I think another good engine to try with that load would be the post war era General.

[@dagryffynhobby]

If I had one I would be happy to give it a shot!

[@trainwreckslayout2597]

The sanders should be coming on once the wheel slip comes on. Unless the sanders are clogged. Lol

[@dagryffynhobby]

Sanders are totally clogged!

[@jkrzc]

To use the language of the young kids that to 260 pulls "like a boss"!

[@dagryffynhobby]

Yes it does! 😆

[@nachtjager77]

What have you done to those cars to make them roll with so little resistance? I don't have anything that could pull that many postwar freights!

[@dagryffynhobby]

Magic, black magic! No, just clean and lube. I use just a touch of Labelle 107 and it does wonders. Also they aren’t all postwar, some are newer

[@rennethjarrett4580]

Wow! The best deal here was the use of the more modern fast angle wheel on the rail cars. Those roll the best with little friction. I also assume your track is very level. You might get better traction by using a rail with a flat top, Gargraves, Ross, but in steal rail or your magnatraction will not be of much use.

[@dagryffynhobby]

Track is as level as possible with my skills. Someday it may be GarGraves instead of Menards, but budgetary constraints are a pain! I did realize I didn’t use my postwar cars, so I’m sure that made a difference.

[@rennethjarrett4580]

@@dagryffynhobby Dave your track is fine it was just a thought/idea about the track type and traction on the track. I still have my Gargrave track from my 1984-1987 set up but I don't have that set up anymore due to my landlord's decision to use my apartment and basement space for their purposes. About 12 years ago I finally bought my own house, small one, but I hope to soon have one back room set up with my train stuff. But I'll be locked into about 9 foot by 12 foot space. That early set up was I think 16 X 26. I've also recently invested in several verities of tubular track as well, including a old Lionel O-72 and a set of two O-72 remote switches that came in a unique deal.

[@OldFrailandDecrepit]

Marx Commodore Vanderbilt. Just too light!

[@dagryffynhobby]

I do need to get that one out of the ole mothballs!

[@trainman28882]

Now try the experiment with postwar Lionel cars. The postwar GG1 would pull them without breaking a sweat.

[@dagryffynhobby]

I wish I had enough postwar cars to really test it. Well I’ll just have to go buy some more i guess

[@williamkaczmarek3996]

Dave, Do you run separate loops each with individual power lines or is everything hot at the same time?

[@dagryffynhobby]

Everything shares a ground but the loops are controlled independently

[@williamkaczmarek3996]

@@dagryffynhobby That makes a whole lot of sense. Especially if you're running conventional equipment. I've got one Lionchief II engine with everything else being conventional.

[@chiconian49]

Great upload. What is the diameter of your tightest curve?

[@dagryffynhobby]

Thanks! Outer loop minimum is 54, inner and upper loops 42

[@gusshadleythelunaticfromar7125]

I had a Williams TM is OK but iam running a K line with TMCC its good.

[@gusshadleythelunaticfromar7125]

I could come up with 30 some cars but I don't have enough railroad. Lol

[@gusshadleythelunaticfromar7125]

Is that a MPC era EP 5?

[@dagryffynhobby]

Too bad I don’t have a k line version to compare. And the TMCC has to make a difference too. I’ve heard people pull 70 plus cars with a postwar Trainmaster but that’s not something I have the room for! The EP5 is the MPC version, I’m pretty happy with it so far.

[@CarmenFiala]

my 226e wheelslips like crazy sometimes. how do you get yours to pull so steadily?

[@dagryffynhobby]

Not sure I’ve done anything special. Clean wheels and track helps. Only thing I can really think of other than that is there should be a weight inside the engine secured to the underside of the boiler casting. It adds substantial weight to the engine and if yours is missing, that might be part to blame.

[@johnblair8146]

Williams engines are good performers. metal gears, strong DC motors and a repairable electronic E-unit. (I once lent a Williams SD45 to a local train club They ran it on a layout that was in an un air conditioned pole barn for an entire 90+ degree weekend It ran well until Sunday afternoon, Then the E-unit fried I retrieved my engine and told them not to worry about the blown board. Upon looking at it, the power transistors were blown. They had part numbers I was unfamiliar with so I borrowed a cross reference guide from an EE friend and was able to find an equivalent 2N series transistor. Less than $2 later she was back in business. Traction tires work well but have a finite life. Keep spares on hand. For the 224 and 226, Get some "Bullfrog Snot" . A glue like substance that you apply to locomotive wheel treads which forms a traction tire like surface. Hennings should have it. As for the MPC diesels, I will not comment.

[@dagryffynhobby]

I’m impressed with the Williams engines I’ve messed with. Knowing the board could be fixed so inexpensively is promising.

[@ken0272]

Have you been filling the boxcars with helium again?? Tch Tch

[@dagryffynhobby]

Maybe… teeheeeheee

[@daveprasse6643]

What curves are you running ? I personally would mot chose maintenance bugger rubber tires over solid wheels ...

[@dagryffynhobby]

Outer loop is 54 inner is 42. They run perfect on both. I will always prefer Magnetraction over rubber traction!

[@daveprasse6643]

...15" Aluminum passenger cars ...

[@johnlong5899]

I am not a big fan of traction tires because they eventually break. Williams and MPC are pretty good. They last a long time. MTH traction tires break just by blowing on them. They disintegrate after 10 years just sitting in a box. They are that bad. I notice a good majority of your rolling stock is modern era with needle point axles. That makes a world of difference compared to postwar when it comes to drag on the locomotive. Also note DC can motors in modern engines make better low end torque compared to field wound motors that require current to energize the field (thus the "growl"). The field magnets in DC can motors do not require current. Therefore they are smooth and powerful during startup as that is when you need gobs of torque.

[@dagryffynhobby]

Yeah traction tires are a pain, even if they don’t break, they dry out and cause uneven running. But I guess they are necessary

[@swayday-tb4zt]

Never understood 3 rail tracks in model railroads, where in this world can I go see 3 rail trains?

[@dagryffynhobby]

There are numerous places and instances of three rail track. I’m sure you could find some by googling.

[@swayday-tb4zt]

3 rail O scale model trains are further from the real deal than any other scale. The wheels and trucks are out of proportion, they're way to big, cars are oddly small to the size of the power units and they're noisy as hell. 3 rail is junk when compared to HO

[@dagryffynhobby]

Oh so I best give away all my trains and move over to HO! Thanks for saving me from the horrors of o gauge! Lol