Why Apollo Justice Deserved A Sequel

[@Froggycolouring]

The fact some people bought a game called “ace attorney: apollo justice” and then got angry it featured apollo justice 😭

[@Katana314]

Honestly, I bought Apollo Justice and got angry it featured, starred, and centered around Phoenix Wright.

[@IceBlueLugia]

Not really. And I say this as someone who really loves AJ and defends many aspects of it. People were upset a game starring a new protagonist relied so heavily on the old one. The best 2 cases of the game and the ones that are most plot relevant are more important for Phoenix than Apollo himself. It didn’t sell us on the merits of a new protagonist the way it should’ve. Nobody has a problem with a new protagonist and set of characters. GAA proved that

[@tarotsushima3332]

​@@IceBlueLugiaYeah what kneecapped it was how Capcom felt like they needed to stuff in Phoenix there to make his game sell and it ended up really limiting Apollo as just above an observer in his own game. A mistake they decided to correct by retconning a lot of what happened in the game after which is why so many people felt off about naming the last three games the AJ Trilogy bc the most they had in common narratively is that Apollo was a character there.

[@pamelavergara3771]

​@@IceBlueLugiadon't know if you were arround them but i remember even how when dual destinies was the newest game in the franchise people were giving AJ shit because they wanted phoenix back and they were glad the new game got phoenix as a lawyer again (or because they didn't like most cases in AJ wich is valid on my opinion, BUT they should've given the guy a chance)

[@IceBlueLugia]

@@pamelavergara3771 I wasn’t there in 2007 but I was there in that period between DD/SOJ. My impression is people were unhappy about Apollo because of how Phoenix was so different. Later on it became more that people felt Phoenix hogged the spotlight and didn’t allow Apollo to shine, while the 3DS games did. Which has led to the more modern interpretation that Phoenix not being playable wasn’t the issue, it’s basically the opposite

[@Coppo68]

I think the Magical Turnabout absolutely had the potential to be the final case in a more faithful Apollo Justice sequel. Firstly, because in AJAA, the Gramaryes were given so much presence and backstory that it could've become the equivalent of the first trilogy's Fey family plotline. And Trucy inheriting the rights and preparing for her first show could've been kind of a parallel to Maya training to inherit the role of Master. Secondly, since the case involved a TV station, you could more easily tie in a "Dark Age of the Law" subtheme by having it be perpetuated by media propaganda from that TV channel's news shows. DD touched on the corrupt court system being publicized and meme'd with the whole plushie merchandise thing in 5-1, but you could go so much deeper by tying a smear campaign into the theme of the entire game, and that anti-law campaign would be based off of all the corrupt things done by the big bads in law professions from the previous games. There's so much missed potential there!

[@PurpLen]

Apollo justice was the first ace attorney game I played. Apollo had everything and more for a new "first ace attorney" giving us more of the world of ace attorney. I haven't played dual destinies or spirit of justice (I'm currently in trials and tribulations lol) and it's just sad to know that the writers forgot these characters arcs. Apollo truly deserved more spotlight. Great video I really enjoyed you sense of humour and editing!!

[@fshstckz]

They also did Trucy so dirty in DD, barely got any screen time and it would’ve been kinda fun to see her interact with jinxie tenma (case 2) And also have her not relegated to side character so badly (like when she was put as a hostage ☹️

[@dylanzlol7293]

Apparently, there were beta screenshots of the game showing that trucy had a bigger role in that case, even having a different costume (implying there was the option to change trucy's costume)

[@cheziechezo5607]

it's like they completely forget she has the perceive ability too

[@namelessstranger]

This is too real we need a sequel to learn how they went on after the events after Kristoph… SPEAKING OF WHICH- WE NEED TO LEARN MORE ON THE BACKSTORY OF KRISTOPH AND KLAVIER!! WE WENT OVER SIMON, FRANZISKA, MILES AND EVEN NAHYUTABUT NOT THE GAVINS?? we (i) need to know Klavier reaction to someone he trusted doing this because no way bro went on with his life so casually after those events? AND KRIS PSYCHE LOCKS? (yes I understand that we had ‘apparently gone over them already BUT NO IN DUAL DESTINIES IT SAYS BLACK PSYCHE LOCKS ARE FOR THE PEOPLE NOT EVEN AWAARE BLAH BLAH) I NEED TO KNOW !,! anyways lobed the video new sub 🫶

[@stellarthefeller]

Dude left the entire AA trilogy SFX rip in at 7:05 I know this cause I've used this same rip for my videos XD

[@d4rk0p4l5]

It's unfair of them to have named the last 3 mainline games as the Apollo Justice Trilogy when Dual Destinies and Spirit of Justice are clearly not Apollo Justice games - but marketing I guess. I'd say you're right about DD being more of a sequel to Trials and Tribulations. It's a shame, really, AA4 had so much potential to grow, it's my favorite ace attorney game as well. I'd love to have seen more of Clay, particularly, instead of having him introduced already dead. Imagine if they had made an extra case with him as Apollo's assistant. Friends boosting each other's confidence with the "I'm fine" mantra. Thank you for addressing this, nice video!

[@24hr-Gaming]

Spirit of Justice is an Apollo game since it's basically wrapping up his story, but he deserved the game not being afraid to put him front and center. He beat Phoenix in a court case and was finally fully acknowledged. It's just too bad the pacing of the game is a bit of a mess.

[@theoriginalcatfish]

@@24hr-GamingI’m going to disagree with you in that it wrapped up his story. There are a few points that are just left open, leaving the “Apollo Justice Trilogy” not a complete story.

[@tomaszpawlik5091]

i would say that aa4 and aa6 are surely apollo games, dual destinies kinda... says nothing. Phantom is a cool one off i guess

[@deathzexion]

Spirit of Justice is more of an Apollo Justice game than Apollo Justice.

[@zaleww5824]

Same bro I never met anyone who loves aa4 like me. I really enjoyed playing that game fr

[@milliardlewmaun4034]

I quite heavily disgree with a lot of your assertions between AJ and DD and insinuating it was all DD's fault. Personally, i think it goes both ways. Apollo Justice, the game, compared to the first ace attorney, was clearly made with some marketing compromises in mind. You can say that Apollo is the new main character, but would you say he has the same amount of agency as Phoenix wright had in the first game, or even Phoenix in Apollo's own game? Would you say Apollo had a role befitting of a main character in Turnabout Succession? Aside from being the guy who presents and investigates in the present, every other facet of the final case's story is hijacked by Phoenix and how *he* fell off, and how *he* met Kristoph, and what *his* plan for exposing Kirstoph is, and what Kristoph thinks of Wright. The reason why i think Turnabout Succession is on the weaker side of final cases (though still a great case), is because Apollo is throughly sidelined in his own game. Turnabout Succession should've been the case that started to further address Apollo's beef with Phoenix, and acknowledged that he was used once again for Wright's selfish ends. It didn't though, and as a result, there is little information to be had about Apollo's state of mind in that case, not even just for Wright, but for seeing his former mentor Kristoph being exposed once again and breaking down on the witness stand. AJ did not give much information about Apollo's current state of mind, so Apollo kinda needed another facet to his backstory, because the one he had in the original game was barebones compared to what Wright already had by turnabout goodbyes. As much as i like Apollo, the game puts very little faith in making a story surrounding him and Trucy. furthermore, it doesn't make sense to have Turnabout Corner and Serenade be so fillerish in tone, when the game is supposed to be establishing fertile grounds for Apollo and Trucy's characters. the troupe family is a good start, sure, but that's only a secondary aspect of one case. If you forget that Dual Destinies had not been edited with referenced continuity in mind, i think Apollo's AWOL moment would've been justifiable from a writing perspective. Wright treated Apollo like shit up to that point, always being aloof, cryptic, cynical, using him without his knowledge, and doing illegal things for vigilantism's sake. Judging from that perspective, it's easy how Apollo might think that Wright would try to manipulate the case to his favor just to get Athena innocent. Essentially, Apollo is throwing back every cryptic act Wright was responsible for, to see if he responds correctly or not. furthermore, the game does acknowledge Wright's attitude shift, although it is admittedly too subtle. I disagree even more with your assertion about Spirit of Justice "focusing on Nahyuta" over Apollo. More than even his own game, i'd say Apollo is the central focus of the plot, especially in Turnabout revolution, where the entire first investigation is devoted to him bonding with his adopted father, establishing Apollo's ties to Khura'in and Nahyuta, as well as making him the one ultimately responsible for defeating Garan and liberating Khura'in. I disagree with the idea that AJ was a *great* launch-off point. It should be the launch-off point, but the main characters weren't given enough importance for a sufficient continuation to be easy and natural. DD on the other hand, had the elements buried in there to be a phenomenal continuation, but much of that was hampered by trying to make it another soft reboot.

[@ericgropuis]

Apollo Justice the game and the character were not really given the Justice they deserved. I think the game itself was very solid sure there are some negatives but that didn’t stop people in the past for looking over some things to just enjoy what was happening. I think the gameplay itself was very solid with giving the courtroom a new twist with the perceive mechanic and then using what was done in Rise from the Ashes with new ways to investigate with forensic science or other things like listening in on recordings. There’s a lot of grey in Apollo Justice and the series itself seemed to be building its way up to that. The improved spirtes which are so expressive and pretty to look at even on the DS. The music was great. I think the characters are probably the best they have been. I can remember everyone even minor characters or victims, cannot say the same for the original trilogy. They did so much to establish these new characters and it was clear they ready to build on top of what they 😅had established with the Gavins, the Grammyre, Apollo and Trucy are siblings and yet there was nothing built on top of that. They don’t even know they are siblings. I think I’m one of the few who liked what they did to Phoenix and I wanted to see more of that rather than just revert him back to how he was beforehand and making him solely rely on bluffing because that’s his thing. Instead they strayed too far from what was established even the jury system and just made Ace Attorney 4 in a way place because it doesn’t fit with what they followed it with at all. People really loved all of the characters and stuff in the first trilogy because they spent 3 games getting to know them but we only truly got 1 game with all of these guys and left them behind. I don’t feel like Apollo is very much the same Apollo in the next game plus adding Athena as much as I do enjoy her just naturally takes away from Apollo because they made Duel Destinies a Phoenix game which focuses on of its story on Athena’s backstory and then Spirit of Justice is another Phoenix game that now focuses on a country we can final visit in Kurain and then for some reason Apollo is involved just at the very end. We never got an Apollo Justice trilogy and that just fucking sucks

[@swagblu4727]

I'm not sure if anyone else has mentioned it, but the reason why DD and SoJ is so different in terms of writing is because those two games had no involvement from Shu Takumi the creator of AA all the AA games up to AJ were written by him. DD and SoJ were written and directed by the people who made the Edgeworth investigations games. During the time after AJ Shu Takumi ended up working on the Professor Layton x Phoenix Wright Crossover game (2012) and that game was taking a lot longer to finish than intended. Capcom didn't want to leave AA fans waiting any longer and decided to have the team from the investigations game handle the next main line. Which ended up becoming Dual Destinies (2013) Capcom even encouraged the team to not be afraid to change whatever they saw fit and or retcon the previous games which is why there is a the big change with PW and such. When PL x PW was finally finished and released, DD was already being made so Shu Takumi decided to make TGAA (the initial 3DS ver that released in 2015) and then that story ended up becoming larger than intended, spanning over two games. Even after DD was released TGAA had Shu Takumis full attention. Which led to the team who worked on DD to come back and make Spirit of Justice (2016). Basically there was a big internal debacle with AA and Capcom during that time. Even after SoJ came out and Shu Takumi was busy trying to get TGAA overseas which was met with a lot of difficulty (which probably stemmed from the Conan Doyle est. And all the stuff with Sherlock Holmes stuff) but it finally released in 2021. I'm a big AJ fan and I won't lie that even now it still doesn't have a super good reputation but I don't think the poor sales and backlash is what ultimately led to Apollo's story getting shafted. I think the internal struggles is what led to everything turning out the way it did. I think if bad reviews and sales were really a factor in AJ getting axed then TGAA (2021) shouldn't exist because both games the second one esp sold incredibly poorly. AJ was recieved well by critics and sold pretty well upon release as well. In the recent 2023 AA popularity poll there was a lot of AJ characters that were in the top 5 with #1 Edgeworth #2 hobo Phoenix #3 Apollo #4 Trucy #5 Klavier

[@cheziechezo5607]

playing Apollo Justice when I was 12 and instantly being obsessed with it naming it my favorite in the series. Being excited there was 2 more games and opening Dual Desties and instantly getting disappointed is a core memory of mine

[@mamastory3507]

Imagine if people just didn't go "uwaaaa" when games tried new things

[@stellarthefeller]

Actually I wasn't going to say Dual Destinies. I was going to say Spirit of "Justice"

[@mntp3185]

I feel like the self-imposed 'no spoilers for previous games' rule kind of destroyed the mainline. If you play the original trilogy, none of the games directly spoil any previous titles. But having played PW:AA and JFA adds to the experience of playing T&T, even if you would technically be capable of understanding the story of T&T just having played that game alone.

[@mntp3185]

I don't think the Yamazaki team are capable enough as writers to follow up on the master piece that was Turnabout Succession. So I guess it's better that they never even try. I think DD and SoJ should have been spin-offs, and the mainline should have been put on hold until Takumi was done with PW vs PL. There's really no saving the mainline with the mess that DD and SoJ created.

[@mntp3185]

Sorry, I'm just really way too passionate about Ace Attorney 💀💀💀

[@Exlayer-pk8hy]

​@@mntp3185 Its kinda interesting how the team that was formed to make spin offs was placed in charge of making main series games while the team that used to make the main series went on too make spin offs. As a result the Layton crossover and Great ace attorney feel like actual sequels to mainline while 5 and 6 feel like throwaway spinoffs

[@chordsofsteel-i4j]

@@mntp3185 lets just all pretend that was a nightmare and ignore those two games

[@gnomegguy69]

Trials and Tribulations has 3 different sequel series, all of which went in completely different directions

[@SoundGZ]

DD is so insanely baffiling that you could play the cases in any order and understand everything (i played the final case at the start and i was not confused aside from the few questions i had i understood everything SOJ has the problem with case 4 you could essentially skip it and nothing of relevence is lost ace attorney critisisms i havent heard is that when you play the 'finale' case they just have flashbacks to the case i JUST beat)

[@spouwnerring]

I'm surprised that you never discussed The Rivales Family (going to call them TRF from now on). I mean, in the game we got all they do is shoot Woki in the heart and that's where their involvement in the game ends. It would have been nice if in the sequel they were given a larger role, however that ship has long sailed. Well maybe that ship will return back to the pier if Shu Takumi get's back the rains. I mean, the reason why Shu got demoted to B Team is because he made Ghost Trick after Apollo Justice Ace Attorney and then was busy with the Proffesor Layton vs Phoenix Wright cross-over, which resulted in the execs getting impatient and promoted Takeshi Yamazaki -who was leader of the B Team and made the Investigations dualigy - to the A Team. However, ever since Yamazaki left the companey after Spirit of Justice came out, the throne is currently empty and I'm pretty sure that the next game will most likely be directed by Shu.

[@noriakiboi2452]

Apollo justice really needed its own rise from the ashes. So many things were just left unresolved. The AJ trilogy remaster was the perfect chance for them to do this but now I feel it's too late. Maybe if they make an Apollo Justice anime they could give him one. I do disagree with you about Apollo not being the main character of SOJ

[@KhalDrogo493]

Imho, they hinted at a sequel at the end of the Spirit of Justice. Lamiroir will confess about parentage during the next game and it will include both past and new cases to tie things up for both Lamiroir and Kristoph. We still don't know much about Phoenix/Apollo/Lamiroir/Kristoph did the time from the ending of T&T and the 7 year period, which might shed some light on Kristoph's reasons and set up the stage for a new Kristoph case.

[@NIX-SATION]

I feel like Apollo Justice is underrated - and the fact is, the game didn't actually just leave Apollo and Trucy behind - but *Klavier Gavin*. He just had to witness his own older brother, someone he trusted get arrested for murder. Tell me that wouldn't be an interesting take? Like... Perhaps we see Klavier coming to terms with it because he normally has a bright smile. It was a missed opportunity. (Sure, we got a bit in DD... but I mean... is one case enough?)

[@zaleww5824]

We seriously need an apollo justice game that is like 5 years time skip and without phoenix maybe as a side character

[@EmaSkyesWife]

HEAVY AGREE (as long as ema's the detective for the game)

[@undertraveler]

This makes me want to create a five case fan game, that changes the continuity after AJ and goes completely against Dual Destinies

[@pikachupower0025]

Well Athena should have her story go through in AA7. More cases should be given to her like 3, 2 Cases For Phoenix, and 1 for Apollo since the Khuri’an things is not going to be important as much

[@muhammedraashid3667]

What happened to the Jurist system in Ace Attorney 5?

[@justnoahherehello]

I completely agree with this, especially about how Phoenix gets completed wiped in DD. You should consider playing or watching an LP of Conflict Of Interest, an ace attorney fangame, which I believe is a far more worthy sequel to AJ than DD ever was. It's also better written and more nuanced imo.

[@dragonballlover2880]

I have to disagree about COI being a AA4 sequel. It’s more of an AA3 sequel than DD was, as proven by it mainly being about the feys again and Apollo barely featuring. People who don’t like DD because Apollo gets sidelined would hate COI even more

[@justnoahherehello]

@@dragonballlover2880 Yeah, you're right. I have heard that Beyond The Shadows is more of a sequel to AJ. I have yet to play it so I have no insight on that

[@reeseseater12]

I personally believe that Athena should've been introduced in AA6, not AA5 (at least as playable). Of course this would mean some cases would've had to have been changed, however if they did that, they could've given Apollo and her more focus; in games with only 5 cases (plus one DLC one) that's not a lot to focus on 3 different protagonists, while also giving the other side characters some development too. Now I don't think it's as simple as swapping the games, they would've had to have been different so it's too late. But I do think they maybe threw a bit too much at the wall at once when introducing a third protagonist just one game after they introduced the second (while the first had 3 games to flesh out).

[@Outshinedsg]

This might be a hot take, but I think Elements of Justice (Yes, the My Little Pony crossover) actually made me like the Apollo characters more than the official followups. Apollo and Athena get their own cases, they are pretty in depth and advance their characterization strongly, and we finally get the see Phoenix acting as the more experienced mentor figure for the younger attorneys that I felt he should have been after the establishment of the Wright Anything Agency.

[@DrawsAshleigh]

Im proud of u bro :)

[@proonv5513]

i havent even watched this yet but yes!!! god!!!! ive been rewatcjing it + taking notes lol and theres just. so much unexplored!! aaaaaa!!!! sorry ive been very passionate about this recently ehehe

[@mc-snack3316]

People hate change and Apollo Justice shows that

[@Outshinedsg]

When Apollo Justice originally came out, I was really disappointed by the new direction of the series. Phoenix's friends and allies, such as Maya, Edgeworth and even Gumshoe seemingly abandoned him and were nowhere to be found during the difficult time in Phoenix's life when he was disbarred. It felt like a major break in character that none of them would get involved and just leave Phoenix to his fate, especially when the entire first trilogy was spent establishing those relationships. The case where Phoenix is disbarred feels really forced and Phoenix acts really stupid and reckless, even for him. Iris is completely forgotten about. I didn't like a lot of the new characters. And Phoenix himself seems out of character, becoming a lot more... ethically flexible than his character was previously established to be. In short, it felt like a lot of the character development in the original trilogy was just thrown out unnecessarily. I know, in future entries of the franchise some of these things were eventually explained to some extent, but I still feel like the intended transition to a new generation of attorneys (which I feel was the ultimate *intention* of AJ) could have been handled a lot more gracefully. Now a number of years down the road, I don't hate it as much, largely because of fan content expanding on the AJ characters. If anything, I think it's a shame that the potential that was introduced in AJ was not properly developed, with Apollo, Athena, and Trucy receiving somewhat half-hearted character development, when in my opinion the following games should have been more about the Wright Anything Agency establishing it's presence as a legal agency, and Wright acting more as an older, more experienced mentor figure.

[@Mahdi12]

I’m playing it on my 2ds xl, still pretty good.

[@LordEgilYGO]

Don't you mean "why Dual Destinies isn't Winner"? Seriously why the hell did they give him the name Eustace Winner

[@davilboy5355]

Eustace Winner=Useless Winner

[@Rinde007]

I definitely agree, I dont "Love" DD, but i do find Athena interesting and think She deserved a game instead (DD and SoJ, not this sequel, I'd love this!)

[@brtruev1710]

Honestly I blame more the fans's attitude than anything else. AA fans (and Capcom fans, to a certain extent) really hate change. Ignoring the hiccups AJ:AA has (because EVERY game has flaws, yes, even T&T - which I consider the most flawed game from the original trilogy but that's a story for another time), Phoenix really developed as a character there. But people complained and they decided to regress all of his character development in DD just for the sake of overused gags that weren't that funny to begin with and really overstayed their welcome. It made no sense whatsoever to see PW acting like a novice all over again, even with so much experience in his belt, especially after his mastermind status in AJ. Also, to be completely honest, the structure is becoming a hindrance. 5 cases (with one DLC) aren't nearly enough with such a diverse cast. Someone always gets sidelined because of that. If AA7 gets developed, since it's a full-fledged console game, I sincerely hope they increase the amount of cases, otherwise the same problems will remain.

[@gud_loki5323]

When is the next video?

[@mysteriousone1206]

In my opinion, Dual Destinies and Spirit of Justice are a duology, not a trilogy with AJ. I see the true trilogy as being Apollo Justice and the Investigations duo, since they at least built off both each other and the original trilogy. Plus, all were for the DS, so they all had similar graphics.

[@mahmoudanas6220]

I respectfully disagree with you Spirit of justice is the sequel though it is not the end the backstory of apollo was shown his idol phoenix wright finally saw him as his equal the troupe gramarye got a bit of new lore and apollo finally did what he dreamed to do he changed the law It may have not given him closure but it definitely was the continuoation Apollo needed

[@dragonballlover2880]

In my opinion, SOJ is not an Apollo game. It is A Phoenix game that has setup for an Apollo game

[@mntp3185]

The people who made DD and SoJ were convinced that they were going to be the ones to make AA7. So they wrote SoJ in order to put ghost law into the games (kind of badly, in my opinion) and as an excuse to get Apollo out of the mainline. It was obvious that the Yamazaki team didn't know what to do with Apollo Justice, the game, or the character.

[@mahmoudanas6220]

​@@dragonballlover2880 maybe they took notes from apollo justice and said lets just put phoenix name on the game and return maya to avoid backlash

[@MEGaRandomMea]

SoJ felt more catering to Maya and Phoenix with the whole fantasy spirit medium country, Apollo felt like they invited his backstory and shove new characters to him in the last minute without letting him learn the Gramarye stuff. I just don't feel convinced with that in my opinion.

[@TheBarkShark]

Spirit of Justice is the sequel.

[@maiz_kolbe5030]

bro did not watch the video

[@TheBarkShark]

@@maiz_kolbe5030 bro did not because it got boring.

[@wraithxd2458]

@@TheBarkShark He addresses it less than 2 minutes into the video, the video didn't get boring, you got a short attention span.

[@Mcpollo_Justdonalds]

@@TheBarkSharkSHUT UP FURRY

[@xxProjectJxx]

​@wraithxd2458 or the video maker isn't interesting enough to hold someone's interest for even 2 minutes lol

[@Now_Roxas]

Persona 4 Golden is a good game. 3

[@xxProjectJxx]

Ace Attorney 7 should start off with a reveal that Dual Destinies and Spirit of Justice were just a dream and never actually happened lol. Honestly, only half kidding. Only way to undo the influence those tire fires have left on the series is to erase them from canon entirely.

[@theidit850]

As a Fulbright fan, I would be okay with this

[@EmaSkyesWife]

yeah let's just say they are side game what-if type things and make apollo justice 2