Why are there so many Modloaders? || (Forge, Fabric, Quilt, Neoforge)

[@Cygnus_MC]

Whatever Modloader you use, i still love you ❤ Shout at me in discord: discord.gg/cygnusmc CORRECTIONS BELOW: Apearently, Quilt has been allowing farbic from the start, however i personally have had fabric mods crash on me on Quilt. But fabric should WORK on Quilt! Ive also recieved a few comments saying i should have covered why quilt split off, however as someone who has 0 experience to do with anything that caused quilt to split off i dont feel like i could do it justice. TLDR there are alligations of the (Lead?) dev of fabric beeing transphobic and generally unpleasant, this caused quilt to split off. That beeing said, Trans rights!

[@jonahplayscello]

Awe 🥰

[@lemmonaade]

i dont love forge users /j

[@TheSanAnt0ni0]

Question : "Why are there so many Modloaders ? (Forge, Fabric, Quilt, Neoforge)" Answer : Because MOJANG is too busy working on adding sniffers, breezes and armadillos, instead of focusing on creating an official modding API (an API that is backward compatible to make life easier for modders), and a minecraft built-in Modloader that could replace every other Modloaders...

[@seeincn4044]

neoforge has up to 1.20.2 in stable and 1.20.4 in unstable

[@diamond2k997]

Cygnus I agree with what you said because I believe that no one should uh bully or shit on others who use preferred mod loader(it seriously annoys me lol)

[@Matt-j2y]

The NeoForge devs are very much working closely with the fabric folks, they are not ignoring the other modloaders. NeoForge is a great step in the right direction, fabric will improve as a result as well.

[@Cygnus_MC]

The ignoring part was more in the way of not allowing eachother to run on eachother

[@kiweezi]

⁠I think it sounds reasonable to not have that kind of compatibility, sometimes supporting features like this can be a larger task than the original codebase. That being said, there’s a couple of projects out there which produce mods that do this to an extent, which I think is the correct approach to the issue. I’m happy the modloader teams are communicating, as that seems like a really positive thing that should benefit everyone.

[@Cygnus_MC]

@@kiweezi so am i! But from what i can see, its only Quilt and Neoforged who are talking

[@walksanator]

Sinatrya Connector is funny since it allows fabric mods on forge

[@FirstMegaGame4]

@@walksanator it causes issues within the forge env and the fabric env while loading fabric mods on forge, is a downgrade of performances and features

[@koocherry793]

For me personally it just boils down to which version my favourite mods are. I cannot say the difference in optimisation between loaders is significant enough for me to not want to play without particular mods

[@darkromano_]

same, Fabric runs well, but not well enough for me to abandon my favorite mods!

[@TheAntagon]

i notice no difference on forge vs fabric without any optimisation mods

[@ziggybadans]

Yeah totally agree, it used to be pretty drastic how slow Forge was especially in the 1.12-1.16 days with the startup time, but I think in 1.19 and 1.20 it's improved to the point where it doesn't matter

[@YourFriendRyan.]

I use them all. It really just depends if there's a cool mod(s)that I want to use for a server with my friends

[@radactivi]

@@ziggybadans there are now mods that decrease the start time from versions 1.12.2 to 1.16 in forge significantly

[@ichimiustin8390]

As someone who makes personal modpacks with over 200 mods, and sometimes over 250, all of which I download and test manually, I do understand your struggle.

[@radiostoneworks9290]

Same. Tho worst part is putting them on aternos. I don't have money to run good server so yeah aternos it is.

[@radiostoneworks9290]

For me what might work in single player might crash aternos and there's also limit to how many mods like memory usage can be in server. And you gotta check them one by one check their version import version if it happens to not work you need to change version both on your modpack and aternos mod list.

[@ocks_dev_vlogs]

⁠@@radiostoneworks9290 idk, for me personally I never had any real trouble with adding the mods to a server since I self hosted one with a server.jar file, but I can’t imagine why adding mods to a world would break when switching from single to multiplayer since Minecraft’s change in 1.3.1 to have the code for both become merged.

[@radiostoneworks9290]

@@ocks_dev_vlogs problem is that in aternos you have to add mods one by one. So you have to check 100-200 mods all over again. Check if they are client only server only or both. Check if aternos even have them or not. Some mods are unable to be used in aternos tha happens to so sometimes I have to rework part of my modpack again.

[@radiostoneworks9290]

@@ocks_dev_vlogs and breaking of stuff happened when I tried to figure out one vampirism addon.

[@Plasmawario]

Small correction - Forge is not the oldest modloader. There was, infact, a 4th modloader that predated forge by a good while. It didn't have any official name, iirc, it was simply just called "modloader". It has since been completely abandoned, with forge coming in after to replace it, and so forge has been the standard for years after. Fascinating video, otherwise!

[@thewhitefalcon8539]

ModLoader is its official name

[@CaptainBeebi]

Risugami's modloader. I used to use it waaaaaay back in the day. As I recall, the API was abandoned due to CPW building his own version of the modloader functions on request of Slowpoke101 of Feed The Beast. Prior to this point, Forge actually relied on Risugami's modloader for basic functionality, however since Risugami had revoked permission for Slowpoke to redistribute his modloader as Slowpoke violated the API's license. As a result, Risugami sort of gave up with his API, since Slowpoke was now actively pulling modders away from Modloader by telling them "Your mod won't gain any popularity unless it's in my modpacks. And you won't get into my modpacks unless you use Forge instead of Modloader"

[@DartMonkey2]

Risugami's ModLoader :)

[@lovelydumpling]

The last time I modded minecraft and had any idea what I was doing, it was during the time of ModLoader. By the time Forge came out I was like "what is this this is complicated I don't get it" and now look where we are

[@thewhitefalcon8539]

@@lovelydumpling when forge came out it was just another mod you had to install after modloader

[@pencilvoid]

The existence of 4 different modloaders provides multiple benefits for developers and zero for users. Since there are multiple implementations with different design philosophies, developers can just pick whichever suits their workflow best. This is something that very much helps to expedite mod development. However, mod users don't see this benefit. All they see is an arbitrary choice they have to make. There are attempts at improving cross-loader compatibility but they're generally pretty hard for developers to work with. Overall, I don't think it's a straightforward problem with a straightforward solution.

[@Cygnus_MC]

Even for developers with a small team or solodevs are not too fond of the split. Yung has made his own compiler that compiles for both fabric and forge, but smaller teams dont have the time or resources to do that

[@AltPlus30]

The actual solution is quite simple, really: Native modding API directly from Mojang, allowing for all sorts of stuff and probably combining all the benefits of both Fabric and Forge However, it's probably not gonna happen anytime soon if at all considering how long it's been since its announcement and how it was eventually postponed forever

[@pencilvoid]

@@AltPlus30 The general sentiment I see among modders is that community-made modloaders are universally better than whatever Mojang would have given us. Mojang's loader probably would only allow for mods that add new blocks, entities, and items, similar to datapacks

[@the_mastermage]

@@pencilvoid yeah considering Mojangs history. Its sad that too this day basically the only games that have actual first party modding support are Bethesda Games. To be fair they sacrifice quite alot for it in flexibility of their engine but its modding capabilities are peerless.

[@NYKevin100]

@@Cygnus_MC It depends on the developer. Developers are entirely within their rights to ignore users asking for ports. If a developer chooses to care about users asking for ports, well, that's their decision I guess.

[@Captain.Mystic]

2:44 I think one thing thats missing from that choice is that mod developers, especially developers who were established in forge for a while, were already used to porting MASSIVE parts of their code because forge kept changing up its API every goddamn minecraft version, the result of which caused many mods to die or straight up be completely different experiences because porting the old code to a new version was basically a herculean task, so the people who have survived through that had the choice to risk forge doing it again and forgetting to write proper documentation for potential years or go to fabric where one of their main goals was wanting newer mods to work on older minecraft versions, so its not so much "port the code over" but "port the code over one last time". And seeing as mods like botania took only a month or two to port to fabric while waiting for a new forge version and create seems capable of keeping parity pretty easily, i doubt mod developer size matters all that much when forge docs are just that awful at keeping up with their own features.

[@Cygnus_MC]

Fair point! However as speiger and other developers have mentioned to me, fabric doesnt have all the tools forge has, or atleast not to a standard they would be happy with. There are however, most definitely people who did port over to fabric to be done with forge's api updates!

[@thewhitefalcon8539]

Fabric mods don't work on older Minecraft. You might be thinking of Sponge or Bukkit.

[@sub0rLai]

​@@thewhitefalcon8539Sponge and Bukkit run plugins, not mods. Fabric is a mod loader but it also can be ran as a server, but it primarily to the average user a mod loader and this person is talking about mod loaders and not server variations.

[@sorenskousen7468]

@@thewhitefalcon8539 Their actually is a version of fabric for older versions, it's called legacy fabric.

[@snowwsquire]

@@thewhitefalcon8539You can run 1.20 fabric mods on 1.16, at least the simple ones, if something depends on a feature in 1.20 it wont work tho

[@samuelhulme8347]

Developers can now use the Architectury API to write one “piece” of code that can run on all loaders which Architectury supports. This reduces the time needed to port mods to other loaders because the developer only needs to write once and the code will work everywhere magically.

[@Cygnus_MC]

Yes, i think Yung uses this. However some things are just very different in between the modloaders, so not all devs can use that

[@samuelhulme8347]

@@Cygnus_MC actually I’ve developed mods using Architectury and it’s more simple than you think to solve differences in the mod loader because the Architectury API is common between all loaders, internally the API is implemented differently for each loader. In addition the API allows you write code for certain loaders if you need to, for example integration with Forge Energy could be done only on Forge. This is because projects are still separated between loaders. For example the Minecraft Transit Railway’s source code has a “common” folder, a “fabric” folder, and a “forge” folder. The common folder contains most of the mod (like blocks) and the “fabric” / “forge folders contains initialisation and some mixins.

[@widmo206]

@@samuelhulme8347 Wait, if FE can't be used on fabric, then what do they use instead?

[@lewiszhou4056]

@@widmo206 FE of course, it stands for Fabric Energy (This is a Joke) In all seriousness most mods have different energy systems and some mods are made to be compatible, some aren't

[@ultrio325]

I can't believe we got to the point where we're basically writing C again for MINECRAFT MODDING of all things

[@kiweezi]

For anyone struggling with keeping up (like me!), I suggest using a custom minecraft launcher like prism, where you simply select the mod / mod pack you want, and it handles the rest. Fabric has been a massive game changer, dramatically reduces server costs for me and mods like sodium are genuine magic that make optifine seem like a sick joke. Additionally, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that modrinth was released around the same time. I agree that it’s annoying having to deal with more modloaders, but I believe that so far it has been a net positive.

[@Cygnus_MC]

By all means, this is a great solution!! I should've mentioned it in my video itself. However it still leaves some player out of the boat. Not to mention developers themselves, Yung mention in my interview with him that he has a specially made compiler that can turn his code to work on both. While Speiger and smaller teams either dont develop on fabric due to it not having the same methods or at the time even missing methods they need to make their code run

[@walksanator]

​@@Cygnus_MC i as a dev. If i am willing setup architectury which is a multiplatform library. I just write some code that needs to be usable everywhere. And if i need platform specific things, then i can just @ExpectPlatform and it just works

[@kiweezi]

@@Cygnus_MC Thanks! Totally agree it's not a comprehensive solution and as with most things in this area, it's not very accessible to the average user.

[@snark567]

People who just want to install premade mod packs or random mods to mess around with and don't care too much won 't be affected. The people who are affected are people who have a very specific vision for what they want to turn the game into, however half of the mods they need are not compatible with the other half.

[@walksanator]

@@snark567 mixin conflicts 😔

[@scotthayes5386]

While I greatly appreciate all the work the devs of these loaders put in, from a user standpoint it gets very frustrating and confusing when I just want to play with the mods I want. I cant rlly complain much tho because they’re doing a service creating all these mods and loaders.

[@nicocraft31]

Im a user and a modder, and very much understand your point, as I create my own modpacks. But, you should understand (im not saying you dont), that the majority of modders dont get money of their work, and do this for fun. I try to appreciate that modders even do modding on the first place, becuase it's very time consuming and doesn't usually pay off financially.

[@darkromano_]

@@nicocraft31 That is the sad part of it, maybe if we could make another way to monetize and help devs would be good!

[@darkromano_]

I agree

[@sparkthedragon]

its possible quilt didnt allow fabric mods at the time because the slight changes they made to their mod loader could have a chance to possibly cause issues with fabric mods, so would probably want only mods made for quilt to work before trying to add support for another mod launcher (even if they are very similar)

[@wiss_yt]

im almost sure its that

[@GarethC]

Quilt has always supported Fabric mods, not sure where that idea comes from

[@ssdrbx6180]

@@GarethC Quilt said that it may not work with fabric mods in the future on the website (around aug 2022 I guess since I commented on that in AOF discord back then) but didn't actually follow though, which caused that misconception

[@GarethC]

@@ssdrbx6180 Yeah I know, I was a community manager at the time - the point was that someday it might not be something Quilt devs may be able to reasonably do on their own anymore, but there was never a set date or anything

[@gammaboy4568]

@@ssdrbx6180 yeah, I was quite confused. I remember when Quilt started to show up, it seemed more to me like a variant of fabric and it seemed to work fine with other fabric mods.

[@FirstMegaGame4]

4:35 it's not only "now", Quilt Toolchain always provided Quilted Fabric API, which always allowed to load Fabric Mods

[@Cygnus_MC]

Pretty sure at one point they didn't, atleast i personally, and others have not had succes running fabric on quilt. Some report fabric mods working but beeing broken, but now it seems stable

[@bonkerbonk343]

@@Cygnus_MC quilt was always intended to run fabric mods, earlier builds struggled with compatibility but basically everything has been able to run for over a year now

[@minecraftprovie5076]

@@bonkerbonk343 is quilt dead? i mean they didn't update the quilted fabric api in ages

[@geolykt]

@@Cygnus_MC That could be caused by the fact that some fabric mods deliberately included code so they didn't work on quilt. I was at least never aware of any problems originating from the quilt loader. However, I might not be a fully reliable source given that I was on Quilt's decompiler team and wasn't really involved with it's other aspects - I eventually left in protest over some insignificant issue, so I cannot be a reliable source for anything modern-ish (i.e. the last 10 months or so).

[@Cygnus_MC]

@@geolykt ive recently had the privilege to talk to the original developer and they did admit that there was a point early on fabric mods didnt work

[@StellaEFZ]

I still remember when Risugami's modloader (Which I only knew as modloader for a huge amount of time) was the only one available, and Forge was the new thing, truly a magical time, nowadays it's weird

[@thewhitefalcon8539]

Forge was an addon to modloader. Modloader had the basic mod loading while forge had all the invasive hooks.

[@haiperbus]

and Eloraam was basicly hording forge to turn it into a coremod for her own pet project, spooking off Flowerchild and kickstarting the Better Than Wolves drama

[@Foxx33]

As a 1.7.10/1.12.2 mc enjoyer I'm so glad I don't ever need to deal with this drama

[@thewhitefalcon8539]

Fabric on this version would still enable a lot more mods. Trust me I used to mod it.

[@Foxx33]

@@thewhitefalcon8539 Yet there's few of the mods updated from 1.7.10 to the newer versions so no thanks.

[@thewhitefalcon8539]

@@Foxx33 I mean fabric on 1.7.10

[@tr7zw]

@@thewhitefalcon8539 There is Fabric legacy. You can mod Minecraft 1.3 with it if you really want.

[@radactivi]

@@thewhitefalcon8539 there is no fabric 1.12.2 or 1.7.10, i cant find it

[@Nord_Act]

Well, gotta add my bit here with source being "Trust me bro". To my knowledge, Fabric was never intended being a competitor/rival to Forge, but rather an alternative. Main idea of Fabric is being lightweight and encourage modders to make their own tools if API is unable to provide them (i.e. Fabric API does not have any API for configs and there are no plans to add one, reasoning this that there's no good variant that could satisfy everyone), while Forge was aiming to be one giant toolbox of everything you would ever need, but very much trying to restrict devs manually to its API and libraries. And speaking of modloader that actually supposed to be straightforward competitor to Forge and promoted itself as replacement for it, Rift is the one. That weird thing that popped up during 1.14 and instantly died. And ironically, it died due copyright claim from Forge team due dev(s?) behind Rift using some other project that belonged to Forge team or some of its members and wasn't free to use for everyone. But again, that's what I heard somewhere across different sources, so don't quote me on this. I'm just also the person who had banged their head on the wall enough trying to find the answer on the amount of modloaders for this game P.S.Adding on Quilt... All drama aside, it manually attracted people who weren't able to find place for themselves in neither Forge or Fabric communities. And I prefer to vision it as some sort of an experimental playground, since as I've seen it was the least restrictive in terms of which ideas can be added to the project in compare to Forge and Fabric

[@Speiger]

> while Forge was aiming to be one giant toolbox of everything you would ever need, but very much trying to restrict devs manually to its API and libraries. While that is somewhat accurate. Bypassing forge and directly interacting with minecraft is easily possible with forge. It is just that forges toolset and features are just that convenient that devs choose to stay within forges guidelines. Just to give a bit of examples: IC2Classic, a huge mod bypasses a TON of forge systems and works with vanilla directly because it is for us a lot easier to do so, mainly due to scale, and me only wanting to deal with some of forges BS. But we still use a ton of forges systems out of convenience, because they make a ton of things accessible that you manually have to implement into fabric. Just wanted to append this because it is not quite as simple as "forge locks things down and fabric gives devs 100% control", because it isn't as black and white.

[@Nord_Act]

@@Speigeras of current situation, that's true. But to my knowledge Lex was very much against such stuff as mixins before Fabric shown how beneficial it can be. That's why I used "was" here

[@Speiger]

@@Nord_Act Oh yeah i am fully aware. I know cases where lex has banned people for mentioning asm. xD But for 95% of the cases mixins were not required for what we did. It was simply avoiding forge systems directly and used vanilla systems instead or wrote our own. Its not like forge prevents you from using vanilla systems or writing your own.

[@jlewwis1995]

​@@Speigerwait people are using asm in Minecraft mods now? :O can you use c/c++ instead of java?

[@thewhitefalcon8539]

Alternative and competitor are the same word

[@sonicjhiq]

As a consumer of mods, the fact it isn't just 1 modloader, really irritates me, I want to mix and match mods and it's harder since fabric and the others came

[@sonicjhiq]

I don't care what modloader it is but I just want there to be 1

[@mythbunkers4716]

I use forge for older versions and fabric for newer

[@sonicjhiq]

@@mythbunkers4716 I just prefer to be able to play the latest version modded

[@EngiGODS358]

​@@mythbunkers4716This strategy makes the most sense to me

[@GamerBoy-cr6vu]

@@mythbunkers4716 Yep same.

[@ThewoodForge]

i remember back in the days before forge. when you had to install 7 different modloaders manually to your bin folder and PRAY it didn't explode and you'd pretty much have to start from scratch. 12 year old me was elated when forge finally released and conglomerated all the mods into one loader. Now we're back to several different mod loaders again...

[@michaelisnotandeerson]

ah yes copypaste METAINF into this folder i was there too haha

[@elecman748]

The Forge vs Fabric discussion is similar to the "Windows vs Linux" fight, where one is called old and clunky (forge) but with an established portfolio of software (Big mods only available on forge) vs Fabric/Quilk/NeoForge, that is called as a better version for being more stable, and having cleaner code, but being problematic by the mob/collective mentality that they share, often crippling themselves while trying to cripple others

[@1d10tcannotmakeusername]

It's more like X11 vs Wayland

[@peksn]

To me it's some key mods that make me choose fabric (sodium indium and distant horizons)

[@elecman748]

@@peksn literally the only mods that I use on fabric

[@peksn]

Even though they are the most vanilla things, they are in my opinion the ones that make me look forward to minecraft the most, it's just so pretty, if mojang wanted they could do a Minecraft 2 just by putting shaders and LOD of a few kilometers and that would already be a huge foundation @@elecman748

[@MrAbgeBrandt]

@@peksnDH runs on forge too fyi :)

[@mifiwi3438]

At the moment for me it's always a question of "do I want to make my next modpack performance-oriented or content-oriented and which mods do I need to sacrifice for each?"

[@radactivi]

it really depends on which version, if you are trying to make a vanilla plus pack then go with 1.16+ packs, im not sure on which modloader though never used anything other than forge, but in 1.12.2 forge you can add good content and have it optimised well

[@mifiwi3438]

​@@radactivi Thing is, 1.19 Fabric is much more optimized than even Vanilla 1.8, which in my opinion is the most optimized Vanilla version of the whole game. Even if you have a 100+ Mods 1.19 Fabric Modpack, it's still probably more optimized than pure Vanilla 1.19 (with 1.12 being about the same level of optimization I think). The problem here is that _Forge 1.19_ has way more mods that I like, but many Fabric mods are exclusive to Fabric so I end up having to choose between Fabric or Forge on even terms.

[@radactivi]

@@mifiwi3438 Oh i see, well its probaby annoying now that the modloaders have been split, but it was bound to happen

[@SleepTime-Dark]

​​@@mifiwi3438There is a lot of ports of optimization mods for forge, like pluto, radium, embeddium, reforgium, enhanced block models, entity culling, etc.

[@BigFry9591]

For anyone wondering about the Quilt situation, and why it split off: the creators had political and social clashes with the Fabric creators. Accusations were made from Quilt devs to Fabric devs. I looked at the evidence they provided, and I didn't find the evidence sufficient in the claims. But, to sum it up, they split because the devs didn't like each other.

[@20tigerpaw20]

sounds like poly mc and prism. except the prism devs attempted a hostile takeover before getting kicked off and then slandered the lead dev afterwards.

[@BlueTree242]

The reason plugins are more compatible with all forks of the software it was designed for is basically a design thing, it's the same reason why a plugin that was made 10 years ago may still work even right now on any software, in fact that's the reason plugins were even invented, Also developing mod loaders and mods in general is more complex and requires a lot more effort than plugins and their softwares

[@Cygnus_MC]

Ofc! But i was more refering to the server software themselves. For example Gale has some serious rewrites in it but plugins still function.

[@samuelhulme8347]

And, Spigot is a fork of Bukkit, which Bukkit was made by Dinnerbone, who now works for Mojang. If Mojang allows it, then Bukkit (or parts of it) could be merged in Minecraft.

[@Cygnus_MC]

@@samuelhulme8347 im sure some of the protocol and handshaking has made its way into modern Minecraft, but i doubt it

@@Cygnus_MC People complained that Forge is bloated and hurts performance so devs started to make their own mod loaders. I heard no one complaining about how Bukkit or Spigot is bloated because they work well. So devs like them and don't want to use something else, just something better for their needs. This is why the server devs forked each other and mod loader devs made new projects. As a dev I'm honestly surprised how plugins work with this many servers. Because when it comes to software development it's rare to see single standard. There are many Minecraft launchers, there are many social media platforms, there are many apps which do the same thing... I 100% agree that this can be frustrating for the users, but this is how the world works. And it's the same with the Minecraft servers once we look beyond Spigot forks. For example I don't like how I can't join from Java edition to a Microsoft hosted Bedrock world (not realm, just a world a friend is currently playing on). But that's a different topic.

[@zslayerlpsfmandminecraftan367]

Dude have you seen the Linux world... Forks here, distros there

[@snowed08]

>want to play modded minecraft >make modpack >spend 16 hours debugging to make it barely functional >no longer want to play modded minecraft >repeat

[@masonstewart6232]

I would like to name drop two mods I've been using that alleviate a little bit of this messy issue. Forgified Fabric and Sinytra Connector. Forgified Fabric is basically a Forge port of the FabricAPI which almost every Fabric mod uses, and Sinytra Connector is a compatibility mod that works alongside Forgified Fabric to port the usage of third party API's over from Fabric to Forge. Using them both together, they allow many Fabric mods to work perfectly on Forge with little to no issues. Currently, the mods only work on 1.20.1 and not every Fabric mod can work on Forge through the connector. Some mods Do work, but still have conflict with the internal code for other installed mods, like Soulslike Weaponry and L_Ender's Cataclysm. I also do generally prefer Fabric over Forge not just for its improved performance, but also its more simplified crash screens that ACTUALLY tell me what crashed, but unfortunately, there is no Fabricated Forge to port Forge mods over to Fabric. Yet. But these mods have been incredibly useful in making modpacks as they create a small bridge for Forge and Fabric to cross that we have been searching for so long. Here are the mods: legacy.curseforge.com/minecraft/mc-mods/forgified-fabric-api www.curseforge.com/minecraft/mc-mods/sinytra-connector

[@psychticambitin7987]

Sinytra has decided to move to neoforge for 1.21 so once again nobody can play forge and fabric mods together LMFAOOOOOO

[@Vampiric_Kai]

I typically use Forge because it's what I am familiar with and has all the same mods my friends and I enjoy. But I won't lie.. It's slightly frustrating seeing some cool mods on the other modloaders that I want play with but can't. I wish that I could.

[@wygha885]

I understand you well my friend, i have your same frustration. Me and my friends started on forge but recently changed to fabric cause one friend could not play without BSL shaders (iris and sodium dependent now...). I on the other end really miss some forge mods, like iron's spellbook and gravestone mod. All this mess with mod loaders, compatibility and shit is really frustrating for people that simply want to have some fun 1-2 hours a week

[@buguiui7514]

BSL shaders do run on Iris+Oculus on Forge, we use them in our heavily modded server along with Rubidium, Canary and a shitton of other performance mods. Hope this helps!

[@wygha885]

@@buguiui7514 Really? I didn't know about oculus. Thanks a lot for the suggestions. What other performance mods you use?

[@rizaltizal1462]

BSL still works on optifine, I’m using the latest version on a forge 1.12.2 server that I play with a few friends Some functionally isn’t there with certain mods but BSL is “supports” all versions to 1.7.10

[@Kalphalus]

I personally prefer Fabric, but I use Forge, Fabric, and Quilt based on the mods I want. I have never heard of other loaders, I started modding on 1.16.5, and I know about Quilt because I saw it on KZbin, and its on the PrisimLauncher modloader(list of available loaders for mods) list.

[@walksanator]

Modloader is old. Rift died instantly. Neoforge is forge but without lex (so better uograde) neoforge is also planning on working off some of that technical debt

[@joejoetv1337]

Another point to think of when comparing the plugin ecosystem and the more general modding system is, that plugins are only written for the server side of the game, which doesn't have to deal with anything graphical and direct user interaction. Since general modloaders have to deal with both sides (client and/or server), the complexity is way higher and more breakage between updates happens.

[@Cygnus_MC]

Yes that is understandable, but there are server sides mods that still have to content with no compat between loaders

[@ShadboY44444]

The Quilt mod loader initially supported mods from the Fabric mod loader. The Quilt mod loader, unlike Fabric, allows you to run both your own Quilt mods and Fabric mods. P.S. But I love Fabric.

[@nologin5375]

I hope neofroged's efforts to rewrite a major portion of the loader in modern versions go well, and it becomes a competitor both to forge with capabilities for large mods and to fabric in terms of performance. Although I do think the competing standards xkcd does apply, there's a side problem where each loader has a different focus, so one loader (neofroged) that is able to finally satisy multiple goals would finally provide a more objectively good platform moving forward and hopefully become the default rather than having to seemingly decide between performance and capability (or whatever it is that draws large mods to forge) as it is now.

[@sinnombre__]

Man life would be simpler if minecraft made their own official optimized mod loader.

[@izeexes]

There are so many more mod loaders, but almost all of them are dead or for legacy versions. Someone even tried to create universal api on top of all of them, but seems to have abandoned this idea (loader complex)

[@thewhitefalcon8539]

A universal loader just ends up being another loader. See XKCD 927.

[@superangrybrit]

Fabric became mainstream at around 1.17. Forge was nowhere to be found and everybody was waiting and waiting for them to update their loader. Right then and there, Fabric took over. 😊

[@AlexiosTheSixth]

Yeah, I switched to fabric for a similar reason: I was amazed at how quickly all the mods updated Waiting for all the mods I use to update for a new major version went from taking a month to taking a week

[@strgnv]

I doubt 1.17 microupdate had any serious impact on loaders when 1.18 was released shortly after. It was the issue of 1.12 days when Forge took time to "fix" and "rewrite" issues bts that were causing losses in performance in stability. It took so long, that 1.13 didnt have modded support for long enough for Fabric to be made and grow steadily from there on due to all other factors alr mentioned on the vid

[@bread6538]

Glad we in Better than Adventure community have only one mod loader, no such problems as you have. Also it called Babric so extra points for funny name :D

[@Cygnus_MC]

I need to check that out

[@midori_the_eldritch]

​@@Cygnus_MCwhere do I go to learn about that, and how noob friendly is the design? I'm not ashamed to admit I'm dependent on in-game wikies and jei to the point I just can't use complex mods that lack them.

[@Castawayleaf]

I didn’t want to spoil it yet, but I’ve been working on a modloader that would be compatible with any mods! But right now sodium crashes the game, custom entity’s from different loaders don’t interact with each other, and there are random bursts of lag from time to time… so it’s not looking to good right now, but optifine is somehow working! But shaders just glitch in and out where some pixels are default Minecraft lighting while the rest of the pixels are the chosen shader, and it runs at like 1 to 15 fps, but if anyone wants to join the team we’re hiring! Also if you used to work for a different modloader team and you do wanna join our team it would be great if you could give suggestions for compatibility!

[@Xaguest20234]

Holy

[@UsernameDoesntCare]

"There is no reason to complain!" Be me, enjoyer of mods, find a mod that I like, realize its for another modloader, which is incompatible with all my other mods. Stubborn mod creators don't want to make mods for different modloaders or older versions of the game. Stubborn community outright causing mutinies left and right and involving petty things like politics into the mix. no reason to complain, no reason to be mad at all, nuh uh, not a single reason. the minecraft community is very mature

[@hatmanbuilder]

This

[@xffeeo]

Last point is straight addressed to quilt i suppose

[@EngiGODS358]

TSMT

[@angilexx]

It would be nice if Mojang developed their own modloader with a complete API and tools to give a standardized modloading platform. Alas, Mojang can't even be bothered to optimize the java experience.

[@Cygnus_MC]

Do datapacks ring a bell?

[@angilexx]

@@Cygnus_MC No not really. Datapacks do some things but they aren't comprehensive enough for developers working on bigger projects. Datapacks were intended for the creation of minigames.

[@darth3911]

@@Cygnus_MCDatapacks are more meant for altering existing code IDs, not adding new ones much less adding completely new functions like the weather and physics mods.

[@HappyGick]

​​@@Cygnus_MC Datapacks lack too many things - there was a person that has done many impressive things with datapacks, but for their most recent project they said that couldn't... *Checks notes* Add new inoffensive decorative blocks... So they had to do their newest project in a modloader. Datapacks also have the limitation of being only able to code in minecraft commands, which aren't exactly intuitive. SethBling managed to make a realistic rigidbody physics engine using a datapack, but he had to do it using a programming language, that he himself created, that simply translates itself to a datapack. How he managed to create an _efficient_ code-to-minecraft-commands transpiler is beyond me honestly. Even then you can see that most of the inner workings of his physics engine is based on scoreboards... Which are... For the lack of a better word... Disgusting to use. Absolutely NOTHING can replace creating a modding API. Nothing. Nada. When you try you end up essentially creating a separate programming language just for your game. At that point just implement a goddamn API.

[@chavezvr3776]

​@HappyGick Sometimes human beings can do incredible things.

[@KorytheMaril]

It's a messy topic for me, as someone who makes modpacks for his friends. I personally prefer Fabric, it just seems cleaner and easier, but for my big modpack, I'm forced to use Forge because of mods like Alex's Mobs, Aether and the Twilight Forest (TF no longer is doing Fabric updates and Aether Fabric is still a WIP), amongst others. The big issue is, there are many Fabric only mods I really want to install, which leads me to the only solution - Sinytra Connector and Connector Extras, both of which just barely work. It really makes me wish there was one universal modloader, but alas, there's not.

[@henrygigabit7510]

I'll never forget when you were able to just make a mod folder in your .minecraft folder and drag drop your mods you will be remembered too many items mod

[@Negative_Light]

So I use a tool called Multiloader. Neofprge has actually been working with the devs to make a "unified project" that included forge Arabic and neoforge. I think long term there is a move to make all code work on each loader with highly technical mods having loadper specific projects.

[@frixnipe]

We need an update: there's Forgified Fabric API and Sinytra Connector, which are Forge mods with the goal of making Fabric mods playable on Forge, which somewhat breaks that border of parity. It'd be great to see this be for other loaders like Quilt.

[@Cygnus_MC]

Hmm I'll likely cover it however my main point is that it modloaders themselves are incompatible. While its awesome talented modmakers are fixing this issue. Its an issue modloaderdevs should keep in mind

[@Drew19822002]

I can relate so much to these videos. Example. I play with the Minecolonies mod, and I use the Resource Pack Conquest. Minecolonies has made it clear they will only use forge, but they will not update/support older versions. Conquest Reforged has made it clear they are only working with Fabric, but they do have a forge version, but they will never update there forge version. The main issues that upset me so much is finding something I enjoy, half only works for Forge, and the other Half only works for Fabric. I am called Entitled all the time, even though I am very new to Minecraft, and only recently have I found out some mods conflict with other mods, and its not a simple click download, and play. I use Curse Forge, when I first started playing Minecraft I made my own mod pack, and could not get it to run for weeks because I didn't know about mods conflicting with others. I just thought it was click download and play. This is what new players run into the first time they play after watching a Minecraft video they enjoyed watching, and I HATE when people reply back Don't use Optfine, Use Sodium when they know dam well Sodium is mainly used on Fabric, even though there are fork versions for Forge. Its just a very BIG MESS, and the Authors know this they just don't want to take on the headache some of them created for them selfs, and put the blame on players.

[@yodxxx1]

I consider the mod loader "the best" which runs more of the mods i like

[@hydroxa4330]

It's a lot more complicated than you're making it out to be, and some choices were political instead of functional. Forge originally started to fill requirements that ML originally couldn't without a pretty big overhaul of the internals. That means the original basis of Forge is so far back that the code base is suffering tech debt. The maintenance of Forge today is likely just so that forge mods have some time to transition to a modern loader before Forge is discontinued, though that is a complete guess by me. Fabric originally started to address the tech debt in Forge, developing under a different design philosophy to fill the problems that Forge had, as well as partially to give a platform away from Lex who, as you mentioned in your video, was a difficult person to work with. It makes sense that Fabric isn't compatible with Forge, because they simply aren't working under the same principles Quilt was in part due to a problem with Fabric's management. They felt that Fabric could go south by having a core team, and disagreed with some of the design decisions behind Fabric that they couldn't revert, and so they built their entire fork around the idea of being community driven and working off a "patchwork" modding system, where mods connected with "yes, and" rather than "no, but". I also vaguely recall DoctorR4t talking about transphobia in the fabric community, but I don't really remember nor do I know enough about it so I'm just leaving it as a note. With that in mind, it makes sense that Quilt doesn't really want to support Fabric mods (though they do) as they're going down a different path, and the changes are gonna get further and further apart from Fabric, which will make maintaining compatibility harder and harder. NeoForge was, as you said, due to a change in Forge management and a requirement of breaking changes that were so destructive that they simply could not retain parity. It was necessary, not from the player's perspective, but from the developers' perspective. At the end of the day, while modding is about the experience players get, it is almost entirely voluntary and entirely founded by the community's desire to create mods. If the tools you're using to create are bad, you won't want to create with them, and so the community doesn't get mods. This explosion of new mod loaders is necessary at this point in time. As modding becomes more advanced, almost its own game, and as vanilla code gets more and more complicated and spaghetti and low performance, it is essential that we find a long term way to mod the game that lets modders do anything without being over complicated, and the only way to do that is through trial and error.

[@Sedna1694]

Quilt is a completely unnecessary modloader. Its existence serves no purpose other than dividing the community.

[@ashermccready]

@@Sedna1694 quilt exists partially because a member of fabric's dev team let his personal political beliefs get in the way of improving the mod loader. Don't like quilt? blame fabric.

[@Sedna1694]

@@ashermccready No. They didn't need to make a new api. There is no end to this. Making a new api is stupid

[@TurtyWurty]

​@@Sedna1694 Neoforged is much the same as quilt in this situation imo. From my understanding, Lex already had intentions of passing over forge to a different ownership once his house was paid off, and the split was not discussed even remotely when it happened, leaving a lot of information left in the dark. While Neoforge are making lots of changes, so is forge. Lex is rewriting the majority of the internal loader code atm, and afaik he has plans to clean-up the tech-debt on the API too. So its very much become another useless split like Quilt. Really, I think its silly to be using anything other than Forge or Fabric. But we will have to see what happens as of 1.21. With Mojang starting to make stuff like blocks data-driven, I think we might slowly start to see mod loaders become more useless regardless.

[@Sedna1694]

​@@TurtyWurty same bro 👍

[@B-zk9bt]

As someone who’s been playing console Minecraft since the year 2011, learning about the wide world of mod drama, mod loader drama is like stepping into a whole new world.

[@thesneakysnek4024]

Videos like these make me glad I never play modded Minecraft past 1.12.2

[@EngineeringVash]

At the moment I'm using forge 1.20.1 with connector to play an all bunch of fabric mods. Having both of them is really cool, it just need a bit of management because Modrinth doesn't download automatically the dependancies mod if you are using the wrong loader. Btw awesome video, I'm looking forward for Neo Forge evolution

[@darkromano_]

Hey! connector effects a lot in the performance? if not, do you think it is already stable enough to use it?

[@EngineeringVash]

@@darkromano_ I play minevcraft on my laptop without a GPU but with my settings I haven't seen a big difference in performance, I stay at 60-70 fps with embendium (sodium doesn't work with connector, you have to use forge ports)

[@jimster1111]

man i just want all the mods i want to download to work on my minecraft. having to jump through compatibility hoops and choose one modloader over others at the cost of choosing between sets of mods is absolute crap.

[@GlitchClipsTheDegenerate]

mod dev here, over 4mil downloads. really hope that all this modloader stuff ceases; really hope i don't have to port everything not only to the correct version on one modloader, but to several. would just be a bigger pain in the ass

[@snackoman1577]

time to move on to fabric boy

[@Schampu4000]

​@@snackoman1577Do you hate modding or something?

[@antoniogaravo9289]

that moment when i see a bunch of mods that perfectly complement each other to make the perfect modpack only to look at the loader section and have my hope crushed . . .

[@EgoRenovarem]

this I don't understand. If you find a cohesive modpack, what is stopping you from playing it? The only issue I personally have with the differing modloaders is that half the mods I want to add to the modpack are forge and half are fabric. But if you already *have the modpack*m then what is stopping you? In my personal experience, the issues only exist when creating a modpack.

[@mikethespike056]

"when i see a bunch of mods"

[@TheFlutterQueen]

just wondering, what website do you use to find mods?

[@Snitram19]

Me and my friends wanted to install some small visual mods to improve our vanilla experience, once we found out that there were a bunch of different mod loaders and that some mods were made for some of them and not for others, after watching a bunch of tutorials we just gave up and played good old vanilla minecraft. Honestly, I don't have the patience to figure out this mess that is minecraft modding just to have some visual improvements. Installing optifine and some resource packs is the most that I will do now.

[@halflight8811]

I dont remember when but wasnt quilt supposed to be the holy grail for modders where it would run both forge and fabric?

[@izeexes]

I don't know exactly how it is now, but before Quilt was even created, some of his developers were trying to create the mod that allowed loading of Forge mods on Fabric. Then the developers of this mod created Quilt and moved the mod to it, kind of, because at this time this mod seems to have been archived or severely slowed down in development. Oh and I remember that the developers somewhere said that work on the mod will continue after they released quilt api or quilt itself

[@halflight8811]

@@izeexes oooh I see

[@Trickster1995]

If forge devs just abandoned forge seeing there was A BETTER MOD LOADER in the horizon or did something simillar everything would be so great... but instead they kept on pushing it until neoforge became a thing, just out of pettiness i think. it is like if you were selling old ass software, but instead of cathing up to the new ones, you just keep seeling old crap with little effort to improve it. as a modpack creator, the nightmare of having "fabric only" "forge only" "quilt only" mods is unfathomable.

[@JFirecracker]

...So I'm either about to lose Create and Thermal, or about to not be able to update my installation for another few versions until the ripples from the NEW salvos in the Modloader War™ subside, is what I'm hearing from this.

[@Cwumb]

neoforge and quilt are go-to for me. I can't pick one, because on each side there are a lot of mods that are too good

[@sehnsehnsehn]

the modding user experience is atrociously painful because of all this stupid infighting between modloader developers. I await the day for when we finally get ONE modloader for ALL mods, its not impossible, its done in literally every other moddable game, Minecraft is the only outlier here and its ridiculous. i could care less if one has 5% better performance than the other or whatever, im so sick and tired of having to pick and choose the mods i want depending on the loader they were made for.

[@TheElevatedOne]

Yes, this is something that also bugged me when I was creating a modpack for my friends a month ago. Forge is a modloader that runs poorly, mainly when you have many mods. We are having like 250 mods and I also want to play the game, but with a pc that has like 7yo components, it doesn't run good at all. Fabric is my preferred choice of a modloader, It is fast, responsive and everything works quite nicely even with many mods. It also has quite a lot of mods already so you can build modpacks with it. Quilt is quite a weird thing. As it is a fork of fabric, I expected to be able to run fabric mods on it and quilt mods on fabric. But it only works in one way, not the other, which makes me kinda sad. Neoforged is.. dunno. haven't tried it cause there are no mods for it really in comparison to the big ones.

[@palxz2446]

personally i liked fabric a lot so when i tried Quilt it felt just like home and atm i am fully onto it .

[@MrFunny01]

As a developer i must say: as client side we just need a standard interfaces which will not change or change really rarely at all. Which will have unified events and unified type. Then it's up to loader on how to load things.

[@thewhitefalcon8539]

But Minecraft changes internally in every version

[@BloodwyrmWildheart]

@@thewhitefalcon8539 That's Mojang's fault for not releasing Diff Against documentation for the code changes.

[@Stiderspace]

multiple mod loaders just makes it harder for the players, you can't mix and match mods because you can only use mods for that specific loader unless the developers makes a version for the other versions. it sucks because there are so many awsome mods but you cant use them because one is for fabric and the other is for forge and the other is for quilt. we either need a compatibility mod that allows the other loaders mods to work on one loader or we need to nuke the other loaders and go back to a single modloader

[@edy_uwu8874]

Minecraft -50 different mod loaders , Terraria-1 mod loader 👍

[@seannewell397]

Modrinth makes testing packs/loaders/mods/mc vers pretty easy; way easier than 12 yr ago when I was first modding mc.

[@GabrielM01]

No one can argue fabric isnt the best one, and its open source, forge is a thing from the past

[@Cygnus_MC]

Forge is also open source and its not

[@awwastor]

Patchwork is a project which tries to create a way to run Forge (and prolly NeoForge) mods on Quilt

[@Nord_Act]

Patchwork is dead for long enough time as far as I'm aware (and got its repo on github archived)

[@hrino94]

Sounds less like golden age of mods and more like balkanization of modding community.

[@Cygnus_MC]

LMAOOO

[@Kthnx2]

4:31 I think this small correction should have been a bit more than a small correction imo quilt has supported fabric mods for a very long time now, and that kind of invalidates a lot of points in this video i see quilt as how Prismlauncher was to PolyMC, same with neoforged. i don't see how quilt's situation is any different from neoforged lol

[@Cygnus_MC]

I personally think the fact they started out as not allowing them still kinda bolsters my point. Like i said reading into the code, quilt is most certainly doing stuff, but the stuff isnt worth the extra confusion for end users

[@Kthnx2]

@@Cygnus_MC yea i suppose thats fair 👍

[@darkromano_]

Love your content was always something that I wanted to do myseld but never actually did because of not knowing as much as I should to make content of it. Great Video!

[@Cygnus_MC]

Thanks for the support!

[@--Paws--]

Though some modders tout inclusivity as a motive to create their mods for a specific loader, but they have also excluded their players. Sure, the modder doesn't have to care and can do whatever but they have abandoned the players they were catering to.

[@ralkey]

I use both forge and fabric. Forge for when I play actual fun modpacks. Fabric for when I play vanilla.

[@LackHapeLuis]

Vintage story is a great game like mc but alot more work to get where you want to be in game.. its more for adults and modding is built straight into the game

[@Cygnus_MC]

Oh boy you're gonna love the video i did on vintage story:)

[@yurinamaekawa7250]

This is the chaos we feared, no one wanted a Risugami ModLoader vs Forge again, and now it has only gotten worse. I just stick to Forge because it's what I'm used to, but seeing now that some mods might not work together is a disgrace. Has the birth of any of these modloaders done more good than the compatibility issue they created?

[@Schampu4000]

This is exactly the point most people are missing here. I still remember the ModLoader vs. Forge times, and I was so happy that it was over. Now, seemingly, every other Schmuck wants to create forks of ModLoaders for no reason. This really will be the death of modding. And if not that, a second dark age.

[@DFX2KX]

fortunately as a user (though I do know a little Java and tried my hand at the modding thing off and on), modern multi-instance launchers make this much less aggravating. I can have both a fabric and forge mod install going on at any given time depending on what mood I'm in. or I can fiddle with a load oarder and then never actually play it, like I do Skyrim heh.

[@sharmakefarah2064]

Yep, the real play is to get a good mod launcher like Modrinth or Prism, and it will do all the hard work for you in downloading mods.

[@SkyFallenNerolin]

we hade the same problem 13 years ago with Forge and Modloader. and this was a war until ModLoader Died and Forge was the main modloader for all mods. so, Forge lived 13 years and this is enough.

[@szyl]

8:20 forge is used for older versions [like 1.12 prior generally] (since it's more compatible/optimized with older mods) fabric is used for newer versions. that's at least how I view/use it alongside the people around me.

[@nocturne6320]

We're really going down the Linux distro path with modloaders, huh... The good old "My fork will do it better", where everyone just makes their own fork without contributing to the original instead. It was already bad with Forge vs Fabric, selecting a modloader limited what modpack you could make, luckily most people still use either Fabric or Forge, but ffs just make a single API

[@mineland8220]

Theres a big amount of politics and drama that doesnt have to be in modloaders for a block game or lots of things in general...

[@spookwave4966]

Forge: the OG Fabric: I’m stronger, I’m smarter, I’m better. I AM BETTER! Quilt: blue haired species NeoForge: who?

[@gasrim]

i just stick to 1.12.2 due to this confusion.

[@keagonlua1090]

When I do mods, I always require AE2, Thermal Expansion, and Tinker's Construct. Unfortunately, not all of them are on Fabric or other mod loaders as far as I'm aware, so I'm stuck with old Forge for now. Plus, they have better extensions there.

[@yarden-zamir]

Now that kubejs is becoming better and better, it's time to recreate all mods in a (mostly) modloader independent way! Jokes aside, as a modpack dev, we actually find ourselves writing our own implementations of mods because of this mess, it's anoying, it's a pain, and it's the nature of things. If you are reading this and want to write a new modloader, please consider writing an overlay to an existing one instead. For example many people talk about the reason to use forge for them which is much more utility and tools, that's a good argument, why not take all of those and port them to one of the other loaders?

[@TheHerald615]

Thank god there are Mods for making other loaders mods compatible. (There is a Fabric in Forge one and a Spigot to Fabric one, idk if there are more) Or at least tries

[@mystic-malevolence]

I switched to Quilt fairly recently (around 1.19-1.20) because a mod that only adds classic roses to the game, and does nothing else, was quilt only, and looking into it I learned that it is backwards compatible with Fabric, so there seemed to be no drawback to switching. None of my mods had a problem with the change at the time. Unfortunately, the Quilted Fabric API isn't updated past 1.20.1 yet and I already loaded my world in 1.20.2+; but from what I understand I should be able to load the original Fabric API with Quilt for the Fabric mods that require it. But I haven't tried that yet because I am lazy. Laziness is also why it took me a while to switch away from Forge. But I definitely feel better having moved away from Forge. Because it loads so slow.

[@pencilvoid]

To my knowledge loading the Fabric API on Quilt doesn't actually work, unless you load it alongside QSL standalone (QSL is essentially Quilt's version of the Fabric API). And QSL for 1.20.2+ hasn't been released yet.

[@mystic-malevolence]

@@pencilvoid Damn, maybe I'll just back up my world and downgrade it, then

[@antares3171]

I still remember the days when it was all either Forge or ModLoader and while most good mods ran off of Forge, a select few really cool ones were ModLoader only. Good times.

[@DoctorFlux]

so many mod loaders legit slipt the modding scene too much there is often where there is a forge only mod i want in my fabric modpack or visa versa its already bad enough with the minecraft versions some mods just stop at 1 version of Minecraft but now even more slippting please no more mod loaders at this point we need a form of API where mods can just work between the loaders it is really annoying for users now since all modders didnt move to just 1 loader and this slipt exist i dont care about what loader is better i am complaining about the slipt itself that slipt is honestly 1 of the worst thing to happen for mod users and properly also mod dev. i remember in 1.7.10 mods was insane compatible with each other to the point pipe/cables covers used forge micro blocks so you didnt need covers for each pipe mod but now there is non covers for those mods or covers of each texture in the game for each mods that add cable/pipe covers and that cant be good for lag and other small QoL stuff between mods just complety lost like this

[@DsiPro1000]

Felt it when you said manually doing your own mod packs, I felt that

[@Rob_Katt]

As you did mention quilt does actually support fabric mods now and has for quite some time. But i feel that it would have been important to note that the "allegations" (which is bigotry) are quite important as alot of mod devs are trans or just supportive.

[@Cygnus_MC]

While i support trans, nonbinary, and anyone who wants to express who they are in their own way. I don't want to bring this into my video's. I myself, beeing a straight white male have no real idea or experience in adressing these things nor do i want to be roped into matters i don't understand.

[@gazerew]

​@@Cygnus_MCso you're admitting to being ignorant, cool. Let's ignore murders, genocides because you have no idea how it is being murdered

[@Cygnus_MC]

@@gazerew im not ignorant? Im admitting that i dont know enough to include anything in the video that would add to it. I have not seen evidence of the fabric devs beeing begotted, tho i dont doubt the claim that they where. And i have heared some not favourable things about quilt aswell. If i dont know enough to form an opinion why would i voice it? I could cause even more harm saying things i don't understand.

[@littlealtro]

@@gazerew I don’t understand why he’s suddenly ignorant for not bringing up a topic he’s not well educated at? These topics are too sensitive and plenty of creators who know better are already addressing this. Ur just being annoying u fr need to shut up bc u make us supporters look bad

[@daarianx7]

honestly u just being annoying

[@RandomGgames]

Imagine if Mojang released an open source modding API that anyone could contribute to and help improve... nahh couldn't be them.

[@Cygnus_MC]

I actually have a video about that! If ur interested in my take

[@thewhitefalcon8539]

They did. It's called data packs and it really made the core game code a thousand times more complex. Pray they don't try it again.

[@RandomGgames]

​@@thewhitefalcon8539 data packs are way too limited.​

[@russianyoutube]

​@@thewhitefalcon8539yet thousand times easier to mod!

[@enderger5308]

IIRC, fabric also came into existence because it took forever to port Forge past what is commonly referred to as The Flattening (part of 1.13), with there being an age where 1.12 and 1.7 reigned supreme.

[@escapee1376]

You're very much missing a good few details about why these modloaders came into existance - the reasons you mention definitely did exist, but are not the actual reasons why they came into existance. Fabric: This didn't come around because of complaints about Forge being laggy, but rather because of Minecraft's 1.13 update. Not only did Forge take forever to update to that new version due to a desire to revamp its internals, when it finally did release it had changed so much and gotten so strict about how things were done that a lot of devs wanted to go back to the older ways of writing mods. That's where the Fabric team came in, writing up a modloader that was small enough to update within hours of any minecraft update, loose enough for devs to write code how they liked, and even had support for mixins, a useful (and largely safe) way for mods to modify functionality in bits of code they didn't own, which Forge had tried to dissuade for ages and practically banned in that transition to 1.13. Quilt: This didn't come about for no reason - it was actually quite similar to the situation with NeoForged. There was a dev in the Fabric team that did some things that the majority of the team didn't like, but that person happened to be the one in control of a lot of the repos and servers the team used, so removing them from the team wasn't really an option. Instead, most of the team took their stuff and moved somewhere else, renaming themselves to Quilt, but keeping all of the work that they had already done. Because of this, or a good few months Quilt was actually the exact same as Fabric, and mods made in one could perfectly be used in the other, but after a few more Minecraft updates they of course have diverged just a bit.

[@Cygnus_MC]

I didnt think i could fit the origins of modloaders in the video quite as well, but im glad you did! I should've gone in more depth that much it true. However while its true that fabric uses mixins, its not vanilla mixins as far as i know. And forge also uses mixins to my knowledge. As for quilt, i didnt want to spend too much time as they have a fairly sensitive reason for splitting off and i dont think i could do it justice

[@escapee1376]

Fair enough, yeah, the info is years old at this point and not many people from that time remain (I certainly don't) - Forge does still use mixins, they're just something that LexManos was trying to quash at every opportunity due to the basic implementation being crash-prone, and Fabric's are definitely not quite vanilla - that's the support I mentioned for them, for allowing them to be used more safely. As for the Fabric/Quilt split, yeah, I watched it via secondhand info (I had done work with one of the Fabric moderators or devs - not sure which they were, it's been years - before Fabric had become a thing), and it was definitely both sensitive and confusing. I definitely couldn't do it justice, but I think it's valuable to state that there was a conflict in the team, rather than them just wanting to make a new standard.

[@Cygnus_MC]

@@escapee1376 very true! When i talked to one of the creators of Sponge they mentioned how difficult it was to get forge to adapt mixins. But as for quilt/fabric, you might be right i might have put them in a bad light while i totally didn't meant to do that

[@josiah42]

As a Bukkit developer, I approve this message. You could choose to look at it the other way from the perspective this video presents. Minecraft is the biggest modding success in human history. I remember modding Minecraft in 2009. I'd never have imagined 10,000+ people would volunteer their time, with no pay to write software for someone else's game. All software is incompatible by default and requires an API to work at all. Mojang never provided an API, despite promises and attempts to do so. Instead, Bukkit and Forge developed an infosec reverse engineering system on the _byte code_ to make an API based on what the perceived the code to be doing. With no support from Mojang, every update breaks all modloaders. And yet! Here we are nearly 15 years later with teenage hackers now middle aged, doing work for free because they love the game! 😅 If you'd predicted that in 2009 people would say you were nuts. So is this sustainable? Probably. It's not like developers have received support or thanks at any other point in time. They're true passion projects. The only way i see this ending is when Hytale comes out, you're going to have a game by modders, for modders. It's a newer game engine with none of the baggage. I expect Hytale to leave Minecraft in the dust. Because it's all about love and excitement, the only thing that can kill Minecraft modding is something even more exciting, made with love.

[@PhilippsHardware]

nice video! I personally think that 4 Modloaders are a bit too much, it was very hard to find the right modversion with just 2 Modloaders, but 4 is way to confusing for me.

[@darkestaxe3415]

I don't choose fabric vs quilt vs neoforge, rather I choose Sodium + Lithium + FerriteCore over Optifine.

[@virtualsaturn89]

The only thing that bugs me about Quilt is that a handful of the devs that make mods for it refuse to allow their stuff to be ported back to Fabric while repeating Fabric mods run on Quilt. In my experience a pretty sizable number of Fabric mods do not in fact run on Quilt.

[@TheJaguarthChannel]

It got all political activist like, which i do not seek for a stable product. Especially when they seem willing to discriminate mods based on if they like the politics of the modders.

[@Kraus-]

It was inevitable. Transphobes are incapable of keeping their political opinions to their selves.

[@sir_slimestone3797]

@@TheJaguarthChannel Reading Quilt's website, it's very political and blasphemous. They can fuck right off

[@LauranceWake]

​@@TheJaguarthChannel It's not discrimination for someone to choose not to support a mod or mod loader

[@TheJaguarthChannel]

But... that's literally what discrimination means. @@LauranceWake

[@BrickmotionYT]

Does anybody here remember the good old times when there was just one modloader? Back when we still had to drop the mods in the minecraft JAR-file and delete META-INF... And of course, we couldn't simply get those mods from CurseForge or anything like that but from the Minecraft Forum (does that even exist anymore?)... 👴

[@stoopidapples1596]

I love to think of this as a great Khan (forge) dying and now all his heirs are scrambling for power!

[@Cygnus_MC]

Is this a CK3 refference?

[@stoopidapples1596]

@@Cygnus_MC kinda, I did just finish a grand Persia run which ended with me becoming the saoshyant and conquering all of the Mediterranean and half of India so it's a bit on the brain!

[@DuneEryksson]

from my point of view purely as an end user, I find very little reason to use Quilt. the mods that are written specifically for it (Effective by doctor4t, and Ok Zoomer by EnnuiL) either don't have the same pull they did when they were originally on fabric (Effective) or have readily available alternatives (there are a thousand different OF-zoom-adjacent mods, one of which is a part of Essential, which I use). the only reasons remaining would be regarding the allegations surrounding Fabric's leadership (Fabric is still a popular choice among users and devs alike, problematic behavior or not) and decisions on what features to add to the modloader being left up to a board of people that had been elected (the actual benefits of which I haven't heard much about, NeoForge's future will likely show if this is a good idea or not but I still expect an awful lot of infighting). an aside; Rift being the only real option for 1.13.2 seemed so funny to me at the time and I feel like it is a topic worth discussing.

[@m64diamondstar2]

pebble

[@Protongenerator]

As someone who uses curseforge to install mods (yes I know it's called curseFORGE but it still supports all of the main mod loaders) It is quite simple to install mods but sometimes when I use forge they just... Crash. Sometimes I could be spending upwards to 3 to 4 hours just figuring out what mod out of like 70 is causing the issue, then find out its one I REALLY want and then spending another 2 hours trying to make it work somehow, JUST TO PLAY FOR LIKE 1 HOUR. Most of the time it's really annoying trying to work with regular forge, as it spews out errors every 3 mods I download or so. I am very glad that there is a new fork of forge without snarky developers and I hope it will grow to outlive the nightmare of forge. Great video by the way, and reading the comments correcting small things makes sure I know what's going on

[@Cygnus_MC]

Neoforge also has issues my friend. If you dont mind me saying this sounds more like an issue with curseforge allowing incompatible mods to be downloaded together, not with forge. What you just described is still an issue with all modlaoders

[@gayasslily]

Quilt wasnt made for performance but because of the massive transphobia of the main maintainer of the fabric project. lots of fabric devs actually moved to work on quilt because of this… And to the point of “i guess quilt supports fabric mods now”: quilt has been able to support fabric mods for a long while now, the qfapi goes back to minecraft version 1.18.2 uploaded in april of 2022

[@Cygnus_MC]

Thats what i meant with "other alligations", as for the fabric mods working on quilt while yes most work! I remember a time where they didnt, and seen a lot of reports of fabric mods breaking on quilt. Quilt nevertheless is an amazing project with a great cause

[@Techsupport243]

Can't be fearful of something that doesn't exist. Now not wanting to deal with someone else's mental illness/dilutions that is a completely justified reason to ignore someone, and if they don't leave then you can get rude until they do. Never put up with nonsense. If you want to believe bs fine, but you can't force other people to accept you, and you must be ready for the mockery and ridicule that comes with doing/saying something stupid.

[@gregtechnewhorizons]

Cope@@Techsupport243

[@guitaristkuro8898]

Fabric literally runs laps around forge in terms of performance, and since I always to try to max my MC having all the perf mods is a world of difference. Let’s not forget the load times of large mod packs not even being comparable between the two.

[@lemmonaade]

i'll gladly shout from the rooftop that quilt is better

[@gonzalitorg5124]

The existence of quilt its some of the funniest things on the modding comunity