Why Did Paul Marry Princess Irulan? | Dune Lore

[@NerdCookies]

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[@Cauin450]

Paul married Irulan because he was an idiot. Everyone in his court knew Chani was the Empress and Irulan was the trophy wife.

[@tahnadana5435]

the movie makes no sense..paul dont respect the freman's religious tradition, yet when theres a white ass on the line, he respect the imperial tradition, even after the emperor says, he was the one who order paul's family's distruction, he ask the princess hands on marriage even knowing that the other house dont acknowledge him as the emperor, and also after he kills all the sardukar..

[@Jessie_James850]

I feel Paul had a little bit sinister reason for marring Irulan. Keeping her childless,he basicly ended Emperors blood line in a peacefull way.

[@darkangel-p1s]

@@Cauin450 nobody in the court thought of chani as empress. irulan was still the empress & was treated as such by everyone she even came to be known as saint irulan later & even fremen liked her later. people in the court knew chani as the girl who pual actually loves & his like his real wife but still shes a concubine only

[@drewforsyth1993]

"Why would Paul marry someone he didn't love for political reason?" *checks all of history for the answer*

[@alexbarron3831]

Because he's not thinking about himself he's thinking about the people. Also usually people who don't love each other at first end up falling in love as they spend more time together. So I can definitely see Paul breaking his promise and actually falling in love with princess Irulan as their marriage progresses.

[@travispluma7433]

Well persons during history had married for so many different reasons married for love is not always the main reason…even in todays world some person are forced to married someone who they don’t even know…

[@rickdeckard1075]

no one is asking that question though. the question is why would paul marry into and prop up a power structure whose destruction he has already knowingly initiated. did you even watch the video you are commenting upon?

[@shelleydaly1726]

All you gotta go back to is Henry and Elizabeth of York

[@TheSighphiguy]

@@rickdeckard1075 because its ALWAYS easier to "reshape" what already exists rather than raze it to the ground and start fresh. especially since the "latter" involves the wholesale deaths of a few BILLION people,...at the very least. he KNOWS all about Irulan. and I mean the stuff ONLY rulers would know. he knows she is intelligent and reasonable and would make an excellent ally for the change. Richard the 1st, in Braveheart said, "If we cant force them out,...we'll BREED them out". he is is going to "breed out" the evil practices within the Bene Geserit and the empire with the help of Irulan who is WELL instructed on the current political climate. MUCH more so than Paul. Paul is a controlled hammer that BREAKS the grasp that the current dynasty holds on the other houses. Irulan is a KNOWN, comforting voice that will help ease things into a new direction.

[@Torlik11]

Irulan remind me a lot of Anna Komnene, the byzantine princess. Both firstborn daughter of the powerfull ruler of a great empire in decline, both brilliant and well educated women, both historian. The historical parallel is interesting.

[@NarasimhaDiyasena]

The occult reference in Dune is the origins of Islam. Fremen = Adnanite, Stilgar = Muhammad, Paul = Salman, Atredies = Karen, Harkonnen = Sassanid, Padashah = Ardashir, Arrakis = Arabia, Green Paradise = Anatolia/Perisa/India

[@soorej91]

@@NarasimhaDiyasena paul is muhammad

[@priscillaparks9324]

Anna killed herself! This other chic killed Chani! Took revenge! I don't see her as a victim. She made her choice! She used her power as much as she could. But no Paul ever!!

[@williamjpellas0314]

@@soorej91 No. Paul is the Mahdi. Mahdi = "Muad dib".

[@Tate525]

​@@NarasimhaDiyasenaStilgar = Salman and Paul = Muhammad

[@Emanon...]

He still needs a legitimate claim to the throne. He can only get that through Irulan, even in Villeneuve's version.

[@NovusIgnis]

Except there's literally no reason, in Villeneuve's version, for him to marry her because the great houses still rejected his claim to the Throne. That's why he sicced the Fremen on them. There's no reason for him to marry her if marrying her doesn't appease the great houses and avoids war. If they're going to reject him anyway, then why doesn't he just marry the woman he "loves" and go on a campaign of conquest across the Imperium? That's what would make sense, from the narrative that Villeneuve sets up. Turns out, changing things when you aren't as accomplished as the original writer is like taking apart a watch without any knowledge of how to put it back together. Villeneuve broke the watch in the pursuit of his woke ideology, and now he has no clue how to put it together again.

[@danielelder6361]

@@NovusIgnis a bit to early to say, from what we have seen in Villeneuve's version he claimed to take her hand before receiving word of the great houses refusal of his ascendency so we still don't know the outcome in that regard.

[@h870]

​@@NovusIgnis Your assumptions are all predicated on solely on how Villeneuve's vision is completed in Messiah. None of this can make sense until Villeneuve fails (if he even does)

[@NovusIgnis]

@@h870 See, that's the problem: you would *wait* for them to fail. Instead of making a judgement call by recognizing the tell-tale patterns, you would simply remain passive and weak and just let bad things happen all because *maaaayybe* this time it'll be different. You're like an abused spouse that just keeps making excuses. Lemme guess, you also think we should give politicians a chance to fuck up instead of calling for their heads for their past mistakes, huh?

[@KMantle]

@@NovusIgnis Facts.

[@BCKammen]

I always thought the marriage was so he could solidify his place on the throne more than anything else.

[@kineticstar]

It was, and Chani was onboard with it before it was even suggested by Jessica. She knew Paul's station was larger than herself and stated she would be fine with the role of the mistress. It was Paul that couldn't let go.

[@janette2422]

same. What a thing to do to her, too.

[@RodneyGraves]

@@kineticstar Indeed. The "marriage" was also a sop to the House Corrino and the Landsraad. Jessica's commentary was quite apt.

[@CoinSlotKitty]

This is why I dont l dont like Movie Chani. Book Chani was Paul's rock, the only person he could trust completely. Not Jessica, Stilgar, Gurney or Alia. Movie Chani seems more likely to assassinate him than anything.

[@RodneyGraves]

@@CoinSlotKitty Villeneuve's adaptation was unkind (to say the very least) to Chani, Jessica, and Hara to name but three...

[@danallen266]

Recall that, by the end of Dune, Paul had seen countless possible futures, and one can reasonably surmise that the futures with the least destruction probably involved him “marrying” Irulan, in part to quell at least some of the objections to his assuming the Lion throne by obeying the “forms”. Also, Irulan plays a key role in “Messiah” and especially in “Children of Dune”, a good deal of both Paul has probably seen, or at least the broad outlines.

[@googhan]

bro spoilers

[@sanityclaus8433]

@@googhan There is no such thing as spoilers any more since Hollywood cannot make anything but reboots and remakes. 😜

[@dimtec]

I just reread the book and you are right. When he gains the other memories, Paul said that he was beyond vengeance or wish of power. He just choose the path of less damage.

[@jasonkiefer1894]

@@googhan Book 1965 and has been a classic, claimed Star Wars and others ripped it off. David Lynch movie 1984. Sci Fi miniseries 2000. And sanityclaus8433 is right, Hollywood only does remakes now. This 'spoiler' is older than Vader as Luke's father....

[@Shan_Dalamani]

@@googhan LOL. Frank Herbert wrote parts of Dune, Dune Messiah, and Children of Dune concurrently, which would put them in-progress in at least 1964, and Dune itself was published in 1965. Even the last book FH wrote was published in the mid-'80s. If you don't want spoilers here, go read the books. Nobody is going to tippy-toe around books that have been in print for nearly 60 years.

[@ELIZABETHhunter-v3w]

In other words, he still had to marry royalty to make his position valid. Like Henry the 7th, marrying his opponents daughter, to bring both houses together. You can really feel the 'War of the Roses', in Frank Herbert's books.

[@christianealshut1123]

I think you're meaning Henry V marrying Princess Katherine de Valois after having defeated France...

[@mellllle93]

@@christianealshut1123 I do think the original comment refers to Henry VII Tudor marrying Elizabeth of York

[@christianealshut1123]

@@mellllle93 Yes, I am aware of that but this is another possibility of interpretation; I know the Shakespeare play in question and the respective scene is also at the end of the text, as here. It's bv the way striking how much the Shakespeare version plays this conquest out as a comedy; you should see the other version, The King, where the character of Katherine de Valois has some very sharp words to say about this. That version also has got Timothee Chalamet in it, BTW.

[@mellllle93]

@@christianealshut1123 It has been a while, but I watched that version with TM in it - also I need to reread the play, thanks for mentioning that :)

[@MackeyDeez]

If I remember reading is that Paul not only married Irulan just to position himself for the thrown but, through his prescient abilities see conspiracies and plots against him through her.

[@sarveshwellness]

Sp that Benne G's couldn't conspire against him as they against his father.

[@AnthonyPinkerton-d7p]

The main reason that Paul marries Princess Irulan, that people may not have seen coming. In the Book, the Bene Gesserit were never secret about wanting a sample of Paul's genetic material in order to perfect their Kwisatz Haderach for future generations. Paul specifically stated to the Fremen that the Bene Gesserit wanted some part of himas a way of controlling the outcome for the future of humanity. However, Paul firmly stated that he would refuse to grant any genetic material or to serve the Bene Gesserit's future plans. In later books, we see that what the Bene Gesserit was afraid of was the Honored Matres gaining control of the Spice; believing that the Spice would give the Honored Matres supreme power of the Imperium. But, what ends up transpiring? The Kwisatz Haderach became something that not even the Honored Matres could have expected. If fact, the Kwisatz Haderach of Duncan Idaho; the loyal Stuart of the Atreides, learned to use the Honored Matres' own powers against them. The reason behind the marriage of Princess Irulan and Paul was that the Bene Gesserit was desperate for any advantage in keeping control of the Kwisatz Haderach, but even Paul stated near the end of the book that he would refuse to serve the Bene Gesserit for future generations. It was because of what the Bene Gesserit had allowed to happen to Lady Jessica; a woman of careful breeding, became something that couldn't be controlled in their genetic manipulation of countless generations. Lady Jessica and by extension Paul, became variables that resisted any attempt at being manipulated in the future of humanity.

[@priscillaparks9324]

Oh yes!!

[@WickedPrince3D]

Interesting info, thanks. Never read the series, was never inclined to, but still I'm curious because of the various movies.

[@tsunami770]

Frank Herbert really knew how to sell the concept of the side chick back then

[@priscillaparks9324]

Haha ! Maybe he understood the world of the rich and nobility. He was trying to show us just how human nature protects and rules. How far it really goes, revenge, jealousy, power struggles, murder, and how the masses seem to be willing to follow along!!

[@jacquecaeser9078]

👍

[@WickedPrince3D]

I don't think it was that uncommon historically. Nobles married other nobles for political reasons, then they had somebody else on the sly, often it was a maid, but I wonder how often a noble picked a girl he was already doing the deed with to serve as a maid? And it wasn't always just the guys. Guinevere sleeping with Lancelot from Arthurian legend wasn't all that rare.

[@ciaranbrk]

My view of Paul’s marriage to Irulan was to inherit shadams Choom shares. With no other legal heir upon his death they would likely go Irulan and Paul

[@javiervasquez625]

In the first book Irulan states (in one of her biographical books) she and her _sisters_ used to eavesdrop on their father's secret talks with his close friend Count Fenring. In another part of the book (can't remember where) it is stated she's the eldest of her sisters which is why she was always at Padishah's side in case he needed her to marry someone to maitain House Corrino's dominance within the Landsraad. Paul married Irulan precisely because of Padishah's intention to have her marry a noble from another house.

[@sanityclaus8433]

Close, he took them as a dowery not an inheritance upon death.

[@codename495]

He claimed their entire share in CHOAM as dowry.

[@dorbie]

He married Irulan to legitimize his claim on the imperial throne. The great houses didn't all immediately reject his claim in the book. As the new emperor he also took command of the Imperial Sardaukar and with the Fremen and the Sardaukar combined he extinguished any resistance to his rule. Paul's main goal in the first book and to an extent in subsequent books was to minimize the destruction of the Jihad his existence has set in motion and he could not stop. In later books that changed into finding a path for the survival of humanity. Remember too that the reason Jessica was a concubine and not Leto's wife was to leave open the prospect for a political marriage for Leto. Paul fulfilled that ambition, but his real motive was to make the transition of power as legitimate and easy as possible.

[@nurlindafsihotang49]

But stupidly he does not account, to REALLY solidified it, his heir must be of Corrino-Atreides bloodline.

[@dorbie]

​@@nurlindafsihotang49 "stupidly?". Get real, the guy can see the future. He knows Irulan is feeding Chani birth control drugs but allows it because he knows Chani will die in childbirth. He knows if he gets Irulan pregnant, that because she is a Bene Gesserit it would be handing his bloodline and power to the Sisterhood. He offers artificial insemination which is rejected. Although whether any KH could be controlled by the BG is questionable, he knows the outcome would be bad. Ultimately Leto II's twin sister Ghanima takes the Corrino heir as her concubinus but it is Leto II and Ghanima who wed.

[@nickmccabe4769]

Such a good video. Have just recently finished God Emperor of Dune and it's interesting to see where it all ends up, especially things that were set up early on. Ultimately, I feel very sorry for the Atreides as a whole and the choices nor just Paul had to male but also Leto, who was such a tragic character all things taken into account.

[@moonborn-musti6051]

Omission of the spacing guild was a letdown.

[@tgiacin435]

I can see them bringing in the spacing guild in messiah

[@kineticstar]

​​@@tgiacin435not really. Messiah is not that big a book and is focused on Paul and other subplots. I feel like they missed their chance to introduce the Guild at this point.

[@1984-i1w]

and no guild highliners. both of which were introduced and part 1

[@tgiacin435]

@@kineticstar the guild doesn’t play a bigger role until messiah. The most we see in the book are representatives that say Paul is emperor so he doesn’t destroy the spice cycle. They could have the narration be a report of the spacing guild leading up to the meeting. I mean this was the book that introduced the tleilaxu. They can do messiah easily in 2:45 time frame plus I’m hoping they do children of dune

[@tgiacin435]

@olipeters5802 well we don’t have a confirmation that he won’t do children, just basically gotta see how he feels after messiah. Personally I’m hoping we get to god emperor and maybe make heretics, chapterhouse, and maybe the other 2 books as a tv series, there’s a lot of potential for this franchise

[@londomolari5715]

We will not get a satisfactory resolution to Channi & Paul until the third movie. I just wonder how Villeneuve will bring Channi to the Ah Ha moment she needs to have in order to bring about Paul's twin children. Dune Messiah will be (I expect, his sister is portrayed as a young grown woman) some years in the future. This could be done via flashbacks, but I don't see Villeneuve using that construct. This must be handled well.

[@gbro18]

It’ll be easy for him. Chani is likely already pregnant and does not know it while Paul of course does. Easy makings for a reunion. There’s no guarantee that Villeneuve would stick to the book timeline of years of Chani and Paul attempting to conceive. He’s already sped up the timeline quite a bit by not having Alia born prior to Paul taking the throne.

[@fauxpukka]

@@gbro18 damn. That would work. Channi can go off have the twins and die, conveniently removing herself from the story

[@anarwally]

This is one of the things that upset me most about the Villeneuve movie. Chani understood the need for Paul to marry Irulan. Irulan in an interesting and rather tragic character.

[@ByrRaven]

I agree. Chani was always in Paul's corner, she was his partner, from what I remember. I haven't seen the PT 2 movie yet, but I found that a little upsetting.

[@di3486]

@olipeters5802I think people miss the point anyways.

[@DiegoB0525]

I think Chani getting upset at the end is more believable and hopefully on the next she explains that she understands Paul's reasoning.

[@javiervasquez625]

​@olipeters5802 Didn't Herbert always intend to write Messiah and the latter sequels? I'm pretty sure he always envisioned an extended series of books to fully unravel the tragic story of Paul Atreides and the lasting legacy his actions on Arrakis unleashed.

[@di3486]

@@DiegoB0525 Believable to western normies. I prefer the original story it gives us the perspective of a culture completely different than ours.

[@KaironQD]

Great exploration of the full dimensions of his choice to marry Irulan! It's easy to miss that it's more than just a shrewed political move to consolidate power, like you say it's in line with his Atreides heritage and his future actions becausse his compassion is part of the reason he's trying to de-escalate, even a little bit, the coming violence and save millions if not billions of lives. Prescience is a cruel trap after all, and the Golden Path a frightful solution.

[@javiervasquez625]

It's rather tragic to even imagine what would happen had Paul _not_ been blessed with the power of prescience considering how utterly chaotic the Human race had become by that point thanks to the overaddiction to spice and all the corruption plaguing Humanity. You would call prescience a "cruel trap" but i would argue the lack of said prescience an even more cruel one given what little alternatives he had available.

[@vaultboy4710]

Princess Irulan always gets the most attractive actresses.

[@Grapist1]

Bruh, she's not in the latest rendition. She's mid at best

[@vaultboy4710]

@@Grapist1 Princess Irulan is in part 2 brother. To each their own, but I find both the 1984 and current actresses absolutely scrumptious.

[@SamBrickell]

Except for now. Pugh has a face like weathered granite and a voice as deep as a river.

[@jrob4795]

@@SamBrickell *damn*

[@teddybetts3254]

Julie Cox was my fav. 😊

[@NguyenQuangLuan802]

Paul marry Princess Irulan to let the Atreides take the throne but all love still belong for Chani

[@ZingaroXIV]

If I recall correctly from the first book. Duke Leto deliberately decided not to marry Jessica to leave open the appearance of possibility that he could marry into either the imperial household or another of the great houses to form a political alliance. He had no intention of going through with this, but wanted the other houses to think the possibility existed. Before his death, he regretted the decision. Paul leveraged this alliance-by-marriage tradition to legitimize his rule as emperor. Whatever other character traits drove Paul, it was that political consideration that most influenced his choice to marry Irulan.

[@paulh2468]

Cheers, Elaine. Very good analysis. You covered ideas I had not considered. I find it kinda sad that most SF is dystopic, particularly the death or absence of democracy. I think Roddenberry was smart to make Star Trek a utopia, that actually mostly works. Compared to 100 years ago, most people are living much better lives now. I'd prefer to think that in the year 21,000, humans will be living far better lives than we can imagine. Holodeck cat videos, for example. I don't want to live like our ancestors did 21 centuries ago.

[@javiervasquez625]

The reason why most works of sci-fi are so "depressing" as you describe is because most sci-fi writers create their worlds on the basis of telling _cautionary tales_ to impart lessons into readers who'll understanding of a book's core message will enlighten them into wanting to _prevent_ said future from happening. As to Star Trek been "utopic" i wouldn't completley agree considering all the ironic violence, political instability and corruption which still plagues the Galactic Federation across the entire franchise's history all the way into the Picard series. While the Federation does stand for the values of Reason and Enlightenment that alone cannot prevent conflict from still happen.

[@mathieuleroux9912]

I feel kind bad for all three of them. Paul and Chani were never able to formalize their love for one and other. Plus I have never see anything in the futur of the dune univers than Chani was ever seen has Paul true wife (despite what Jessica had said), on the contrary she is seen in a bad light like some sort of lustful bitch who make Paul cheating openly on his legitimate wife, Irulan, without any shame what so ever. (If anybody found a source who said the opposite, I would interest to know it) For Irulan, I found her faith very sad, because she had a great admiration about love and devotion, but she never received any of it from her husband, while she seemed far from being a bad person. Plus she doesn't seem to hate Paul despite the fact that she would have every reason in the world to hate him. If it was mention somewhere that her writting and her raising of Paul children, give her the happiness she never have during her marriage, that would have relieve me, but I have never see anything like that being mentioned.

[@Shan_Dalamani]

Check out the miniseries. At the end of Children of Dune, Irulan says she will be content to help raise Ghanima's children (Ghanima marries Farad'n Corrino, Irulan's nephew, in order to continue the Atreides bloodline).

[@mathieuleroux9912]

@@Shan_Dalamani Thank you for making me know about it. It's really appreciate.

[@christianealshut1123]

@@Shan_Dalamani Excuse me, but Ghanima doesn't "marry" Farad'n Corrino; as it's made clear in the book, she is joined to her own brother, Leto, in a purely ceremonial marriage, designed to prevent anyone of the Great Houses from deriving power from a marriage to her. Farad'n, instead, is given to her as a male concubine, and in a reversal of what happened to Irulan, he is also assigned the role of court historian and scribe.

[@Shan_Dalamani]

@@christianealshut1123 You're excused. I was talking about the miniseries, not the book. It's clear that the original intention (a plan devised by Alia) was for Ghanima and Farad'n to marry. Of course Leto and Ghanima had their own plans, so yes, they solved it like the Egyptians did, with a 'marriage' that would have been incestuous if Leto hadn't already been in the process of becoming a sandworm.

[@nurlindafsihotang49]

Oooh Irulan HATED Paul. It is clear in Dune Messiah. How cant she be? But despite all the insult she taken, it is testament that basically, she is a good person raised in pit of snakes since birth. She rejected BG order to kill Ghanima and Leto II because she see that children dont have any fault in this. She is the one protected Ghanima and Leto II after Chani died, Paul became dead beat dad and choose to die, and Alia become mad empress regnant.

[@jasmeenmalhotra2225]

Love this nuanced view. If there's anything that Herbert believed and Dune represents, it's the idea that rarely is anything or anyone completely good or bad. The binary doesn't exist in reality, it's always somewhere in between.

[@anthonyshaddox7594]

Wonderful Job, Nerd Cookies. I've read the Dune books through Chapterhouse. Watching the reviews of others it appears they haven't read the books which is fine, but they all asked the same question that you've answered. Welcome to the fellowship :)

[@padawanmage71]

For whatever reason, it's hard not thinking that Irulan is just used as a pawn, a piece on some chessboard to hold off the rest of the pieces. What did she think of the marriage? In the 'Children of Dune' miniseries, it's shown that she at least has some ambition to sire a child of her own, but only with Paul's willingness. I got the impression that she did feel something for Paul, even if that feeling was never returned.

[@Shan_Dalamani]

Miniseries Irulan had some maternal feelings, as shown by how devoted she was to the Atreides twins (who never gave her the respect she deserved), and she stated, "It's my right to bear the royal heir" - that's what she was trained for, her entire life, both by Shaddam and her Bene Gesserit teachers. Paul didn't see it that way, so Irulan never had any children of her own.

[@priscillaparks9324]

SHE POISONED CHANI!

[@nurlindafsihotang49]

​@@Shan_Dalamaninot by CHOICE. Paul strictly said she could take lover but never have children of her own. That was Paul cruelty! He can have one but not irulan. Bastard.

[@nurlindafsihotang49]

​​@@priscillaparks9324CAN YOU BLAME HER!? IRULAN DOES NOT KNOW THAT SHE WOULD NEVER COULD HAVE CHILDREN OF HER OWN, NEVERMIND PAUL'S WHEN SHE TAKEN AS WAR-PRIZE BY PAUL!!! Had she know, she could fled or killed herself!

[@Shan_Dalamani]

@@nurlindafsihotang49 There's nowhere Irulan could have gone that Paul wouldn't have been able to find her, and killing herself wouldn't solve anything.

[@beauhancock4922]

It's important to know the rules of the great convention to understand why the movie rendition has such heavier stakes than the books or the sci fi adaptation because the great houses didn't recognize his ascension, it means that instead of the extreme political strife that cost billions of lives over 12 years, they'll lose many more during a holy crusade across the imperium and the galaxy. But it leaves so many great possibilities and a great number of terrible ones too... Consider kralizec happening earlier because Paul decided it's better for humanity to rid itself of the comforts of convenience

[@landokennji3796]

I thought the answer was… Because she’s hot!

[@whisthpo]

Do not Ever rely on 'Off World Resources'...

[@shanenolan5625]

As far as I can tell at least 120 world's fought with the covert support of 500 more and 10 thousands supported Paul..

[@carolynallisee2463]

Throughout history, there has been a tradition of cementing alliances between noble and royal houses with arranged marriages. It was a way of preventing war when a king or noble had no heir, to marry a favoured daughter to a suitable strong man, who would inherit his father-in-law's titles and/or crown. If we take a step back from the active intrigue in the book 'Dune', we get a good look at the long term schemes of the Bene Gesserit. Yes, they wanted to place one of their own sisters on the throne: That is why Irulan's mother was ordered to produce only daughters for Shaddam. However, they must have known that the Landsraad wouldn't accept a woman on the imperial throne. You have to wonder what their next steps would have been. Did they think to have Leto Atreides marry Irulan? Jessica was, after all, only concubine. If Shaddam IV hadn't been so concerned about being usurped, he could have offered Irulan's hand to him, rather than have the Harkonnens murder the Atreides. Which brings up another intriguing thought. The Fenrings' visit to Giedi Prime was to examine Feyd- Rautha for suitability as the Baron's heir. Lady Margot had two clear objectives in her part of the mission: conceive a child with him should things go south and Feyd end up being killed, and to implant a certain word that would ensure he could be controlled. But perhaps there was a third, unspoken objective: test his suitability as consort to Irulan, and as de facto emperor, under Bene Gesserit control? In the book, the Harkonnens' imperial ambitions are made quite clear for all to see. Finally, the more I see and hear, the more I feel DV has made a serious mistake with how he ended Dune Part Two. Quite apart from the fact his version of Paul has basically ordered Jihad and genocide, when in the book, Paul was doing everything he could to avoid it, DV seems to have either forgotten or rejected some of the more internicine political manoeuvrings in favour of a 'modern portrayal' for certain female characters. Regardless of her station, Chani in the books was totally loyal to Paul: and it was this fact that made her a target for conspiracies and plots in Dune Messiah. Even if DV decides to ignore his Chani's temper tantrum and follow the story of Dune Messiah, the fact his version of her had the hissy fit will detract from what follows

[@kineticstar]

If you think about it, the whole story could have been resolved by having Paul and Irulan wedded to secure both factions' place. It would have also given Bene Gesserit control over Paul pre change to the Kwisatz Haderach and secured the bloodline going forward. Truly, there is a lack of foresight on all the parties involved.

[@brotherjohnnyxXxX]

Paul was reluctant to take on the mantle of the Mahdi up until the destruction of Sietch Tabr. His inability to predict it, along with the visions of Chani and Jamis is what lead him to take the water of life, which allowed him to see the narrow way through. Muad'Did's jihad was an inevitable side effect of him embracing the prophesy of the Lisan al Gaib. Chani is heartbroken not just by Paul’s decision to marry Irulan, but also because he ended up taking advantage of the Fremen beliefs in order to gain power and vengeance. She felt betrayed because he told her multiple times throughout the film that he's no messiah. Paul left Chani in the dark when it comes to the decisions he ended up making, so her reactions are entirely justified. After taking the water of life Paul says, when referring to Chani "she'll come to understand, I've seen it". Before the duel she says to Paul "this isn't over yet". They'll get back together, possibly during the holy war. Hence it'll probably not distract from what follows.

[@nurlindafsihotang49]

​@@brotherjohnnyxXxXChani :" He is not a messiah, he is just a naughty boy! Go away now!"

[@reginaldshort8486]

In ASOIAF Ned Stark would be the antithesis of Paul. Paul would’ve made a deal with Tywin through Pycelle breaking Sansa engagement instead marrying Arya to Tommen and Robb to Mycella. Casterly Rock would’ve passed through Tommen and Arya and Robb would’ve gotten the ruins of Castemere as a wedding gift

[@juliancain3872]

I would add by marrying Margaery Tyrell (assuming Renly doesn't go rogue) to Joffrey and Sansa to Willas Tyrell. A personal connection to the Tyrells and a sure Queenship to them would entice an alliance from them.

[@jacquecaeser9078]

I am new to Dune. You all are so knowledgeable and have helped me to better understand it. I saw the 1984 version but was lost. Thanks again.

[@85ddrummer]

I thought this was quite glossed over in Dune 2 and needed to be fleshed out more.

[@shanenolan5625]

The marriage made perfect sense snd ge gained the corrio choam stake as dowry. Worth the wedding alone, Many will have expected irulan to succeed and have a husband, why nit Paul, ? Snd he was the son of leto the just , and he had just defeated the sardukar and found a way to control the guild , I'd imagine msny were celebrating across the imperium. Those were not popular groups

[@javiervasquez625]

Many probably but the majority? They might have been scared after realizing the risk Paul's religious fanatics posed to the entire universe.

[@neondemon5137]

For legitimacy and unlimited power.

[@javiervasquez625]

And probably to anger Padishah even more after betraying and killing his father.

[@sgt.grinch3299]

Chani & Paul showed almost zero emotion, attraction, and love in DUNE2 2. Chani spent more time doubting Paul than loving him.

[@jamesst.patrick6029]

Facts

[@williamjpellas0314]

Yes, because....Girl Boss, down with the patriarchy, blahditty blahditty blahblahblah.

[@brianlove5782]

​@@williamjpellas0314 we got it. You still mad a girl say no in highschool 😂

[@1stMolten_Alchemist]

well said I felt absolutely no connection between them only a fleeting admiration bc he was important rather than an actual connection because of who he is, while Paul was constantly bombarded with the effect of his decisions and potential weight of all human existence. I was more than a little curious about the ending

[@cargopilotguy305]

@@brianlove5782modern social trends are a reasonable explanation for changing Chani so fundamentally from the book.

[@pac1fic055]

Irulan is a very interesting character, and I look forward to see her evolution in Dune Messiah.

[@TillionTirrion]

Thanks Elaine! Always a treat.

[@NerdCookies]

Thanks for the support!!!!

[@peterclarke9859]

Dune messiah if it gets made is to be Chani takes Paul down movie and nothing like messiah.

[@chickenmonger123]

I didn’t really like that they had to give the Movie Chani a huffy Moral Stand. She was not ignorant of the Quandary within Paul regarding it in the Books. But it didn’t need to be a strong independent woman who don’t need no man thing. She was Strong. But she wasn’t Strong alone. And neither was Paul, though the World thought he was. The lesson wasn’t think for yourself. It was, beware those who wish you to think as they wish. I didn’t relate to the Movie Characters. Unfortunately.

[@peterclarke9859]

@@chickenmonger123 and they cut out Thufir like he never existed and no Count Fenring.

[@kineticstar]

From the looks of it, she's probably going to lead a plot to overthrow Paul in the next movie. I didn't like how they changed her character. I don't mind giving her more of a presence and motivation, but to be the counter foil to the love of your life; it seems a complicated real-life matter snuck into the final draft.

[@michaelwellen2866]

Dream sequence: Paul, Paul! You can avoid the great Jihad if you don't marry Florence Pugh. Paul: Hmmm...no deal.

[@tedmcgee7363]

Thanks for the coverage!

[@wiilov]

...So, am I the only one that found Irulan more charming and likeable than Chani in the film??

[@Jetstoanywhere]

No , you arent . A lot of people dont like Zendaya as an actress shes just not very good.

[@Stitchman3875]

Irulan was only in a few minutes of the character, but she had a certain gravitas.

[@di3486]

No, I think the same!

[@dariovirga7711]

No worry, I found movie!Chani as an insufferable, disrespectful, stubborn brat who, despite speaking against religious fundamentalism, is completely unwilling to compromise with circumstances or understand others. Sorry if I sound harsh. It's grotesque that I ended up liking the Harkonnen more (despite the book differencies)

[@joaov.candido8399]

No, I think that Irulan was better than Chani too. But, it's unknow if the relationship between Paul & Irulan is gonna be change in the movie.

[@mrgear100]

Well, Princess Irulan is portrayed by Florence Pugh. That would be enough of a reason, for me.

[@kineticstar]

I'll be honest. I enjoyed the new movies because I wanted to see what would come of them, but I do not think they are really any better than the 1984 version. Both are flawed masterpieces that left out too much of the story's intrigue and character growth on the cutting room's floor. Some of the changes make sense while others go off the rails and take you out of the story we know from the books. I may be in the minority here, but I wanted to see the storyline from the book. I wanted to see Paul pull the strings of manipulation with the Fremen. To see the Baron chew the scenery with murderous diabolical plots and schemes. I wanted to watch the Emperor remember his youth and the treachery he used to userp the thrown. The first book should have been made like LotR. A three part series each a three hour movie. I guess I will just have to be stratified with what we got and clutch my books closer.

[@jasper4251]

Fully agree! Liked the new movies, very artistic, mood-wise okay, story wise the old movie was better.

[@javiervasquez625]

What about the Sci-fi channel miniseries? I'm sure there's a lot of enjoy and like when it comes to how it tried to accurately adapt many key aspects from the book.

[@priscillaparks9324]

I really enjoyed the Dune movies. In many ways I sppreciate the mini series better. Great novels and movie. 😆

[@kineticstar]

@priscillaparks9324 if you get a chance and have the time. There's a recut 1984 version of the original movie that is by far a more adept retelling on KZbin for free. It is still a few steps short of the book, but it won't leave you as hungry as the rest of the offers do.

[@khankrum1]

If Paul had consummated his marriage to Irulan then the Benne Gesserit would have got their hands on his DNA, and Paul knew that!

[@thesurvivalist6313]

because he was stupid, and didnt realize the ramifications for what the words "having won the war" truly meant. So instead he went along with the smallness of the show, having beaten it, never knowing that he alone could have molded the empire into anything he had wanted. For hollow words like politics, having beaten the politicians. Like peace, having already the means to shut down the entire world. Like if oil was the spice, the very means of travel, and having the only world that produced that oil, and thus the entire infrastructure of the empire. He had complete control of the holdings of humanity. He ironically had the the gun pointed to the world, via the greenification program, the water that would make arrakis green, but kill the worms, and deprive the navigators of their spice, their entire space transportation network. He had everything that he needed to end the insanity of the empire, and still chose to continue the show, and he paid for it, dearly in the long run by losing complete control of it. For a "god" with temporal powers, he had extremely narrow vision.

[@georgeprchal3924]

To become Emperor, seems pretty self explanatory.

[@xavariusquest4603]

Lets see. Shes brilliant, clear headed, adaptable, logical, and exquisite. Shes the perfect woman to support the restoration of order.

[@beardfmly]

Haven’t read the books, but saw the miniseries long ago, so I know how it plays out. I think it’s cruel of Paul to marry Irulan knowing he was never going to get her pregnant and give Irulan her own babies. Paul just had to have his cake and eat it too. And it’s not like he thought she was a bad person, he went off and left her to raise his kids.

[@jeremyevans8374]

You absolutely nailed it. My compliments. People want to mistakenly call Paul the villain and that misses Herbert's point entirely. Power itself is the villain or, as you put it, expansive governments. Paul was faced with only terrible choices and chose what he believed to be the least destructive.

[@Onishiro]

Why would Paul choose a beautiful, powerful woman over Zendaya?

[@jimholmes5395]

Frank Herbert knew his human history. What I see and have read is a sci-fi adaption of the novel Shogun based on the Tokagawa Shogunate. Marriages were made to prevent wars and unrest besides expand power and land holdings in both Samauri Japan and in Medieval Europe and Russia.

[@phillipbates9587]

Nice explanation

[@NerdCookies]

Thanks!

[@agesflow6815]

Thank you, Nerd Cookies.

[@VespoLiveGaming]

It was, IMHO a move meant to convince the rest of the Landsraad to accept his rule by tying him to the Corrinos. I think there's also more subtext- it also effectively made Irulan a hostage to ensure Shaddam IV would not dare plot against him (openly at least) and as a power move against thd Bene Gesserit putting Paul formly in control of the Corrino genetic legacy- taking her off the board for their breeding program.

[@bowserbrowser6559]

Makes way more sense in the books than the movie sadly...loved the movie but there were some corners cut in the final act..why would threatening the spice fields with nukes work? Every house had nukes..why didn't the harkonnens do that?

[@javiervasquez625]

The Harkonnens were the most addicted to spice among the Landsraad which is why there was no way they would have ever even concieved of destroying anything related to spice as it was their literal lifesource from which the Baron indulged himself in his hedonistic lifeystyle. Paul was the one guy who could see the utter decadence which spice caused on Humanity hence his willingness to shut down any more consumption of spice across the Imperium to stop said decadence indefinetly.

[@haroldbrown893]

He not tapping that is true science fiction

[@Gazooka]

I mean who wouldn’t want to marry Florence Pugh

[@plato363]

Asking having not seen the dune 2…. It’s feels like making chani somewhat an antagonist to Paul’s rise to empower while reducing the roles of the sisterhood and the guild limits the story. Anyone have an opinion who has seen dune part 2

[@AdeptCharon]

Great video! I've seen enough people have some kind of frustrating take that there's no reason for Paul to marry Irulan, that this might help with some of that lol

[@yarsivad000.5]

Dune Part 3 Denis abandons Dune Messiah almost completely. Chani and her allies Irulan (takes the throne) and surprise Alia(who takes over Denis evil version Sisterhood and straightens it out) {why didn't Reverend Mother kill Paul with the Gom Gahbar pass or fail. Jessica would have thought Paul failed and let her leave before destroying the Duke and herself with how Paul died. Why voice the Emperor into a convoluted plan to do it. In Frank's book the Emperor's paranoia is enough for him to do it.} Chani and her allies take Paul down(Chani takes over the Freemen, changes name to Freepersons) Paul has lost his eyes and in Freemen tradition goes to the desert to die but first kills Jessica (if Denis can resist having Chani do it). There will be no Mentants, no face dancers, no Duncan Idaho, no Spacing Guild and no Alia being affected thru past lives by the Baron, no Twins to set up Children of Dune for another Director. And no Frank Herbert.Denis trilogy will leave no doubt it is not a White Savior tale. Chani will help Stilgar transition to a free thinking woman who is accepted and celebrated by even the superstitious, religious, dangerous southern "bible belt" fundamentalists. The Sleeper has Awakened and Denis Dune is WOKE. Hollywood will give him trophies for his virtue signaling. Denis feels most people haven't read Dune Messiah and expect the girl boss white man bad-ending to movies. I hope I'm wrong but I'm not. It will look great! 😊

[@1984-i1w]

bro, are you copy/pasting this everywhere?

[@yarsivad000.5]

@@1984-i1w No typing. If people know what is coming it might be prevented.

[@yarsivad000.5]

@@1984-i1w Pal, I have a question for you. And I answered yours. I’ve noticed you leave snarky responses/critiques to other people’s comments. The question is-do you ever leave a comment on the topic in the video or just responses to comments. Once again I typed out each comment. Dune getting the Kathleen Kennedy treatment bothers me and typing my frustration out, I find is cathartic. And I want others to see where Denis is taking the franchise. It is going to an abrupt end. Will it change things? I doubt it, but the typing helps drain my frustration. You can recognize a comment from me now so if you find them ridiculous just by pass them. If snarky responses are your thing, I just realized I’m curious how dismissive you can get?

[@nurlindafsihotang49]

.....why do i feel you are doing serious oracle presience here???? Are you a spice addict? Bene teliaxu!?😂

[@mikelara8343]

...Keep your enemies closer, even if you have to marry them...

[@theAverageJoe25]

This does beg a question: with the ending of Dune Part 2 being that all or at least most of the great houses refusing to acknowledge his ascension how much will his marriage to the princess matter

[@shanenolan5625]

Thanks Elaine

[@mercianthane2503]

Alternate ending: Lady Jessica: You're marrying Irulan for diplomacy, prestige and legitimization, right? Paul: :3 Lady Jessica: Right?... Paul: 7u7

[@Connor.SG-1Ring]

She was simply a means to legitimize Paul's claim to the throne.

[@jerrysstories711]

This was one of the many dumb changes Denis made in this Dune movies. In the books, Paul married Shaddam's daughter to legitimize his taking the throne and make the arrangement acceptable to the Great Houses. In the movie, the Great Houses refused to accept his ascension to the throne, sparking the holy war, but also leaving no reason for him to marry Irulan!

[@1984-i1w]

exactly

[@ciaranbrk]

In Denis Version one reason could be for the marriage so he has a legal claim on Shazam’s chome shares.

[@jrob4795]

Imagine reading all those comics and having to watch the source material be destroyed on the big screen over and over and over and over again for decades…

[@Dularr]

It's a cinematic shortcut. It would take days, weeks or years for the great houses to resist his rule.

[@Dularr]

Denis left out the word RELIGION. The great houses would resist the imposition of the Fremen religion on the great houses.

[@JohnSmith-ps7yq]

If people are confused by this, maybe they should read Dune? Or rewatch Dune Part 2?

[@SOAP1000]

Because that dress was so 🔥 he had to secure the bag

[@kenaustinardenol1338]

Not Zendaya OR Florence, but Zendaya AND Florence. Lucky bastard! 🙂

[@leszekwolkowski9856]

Chani was just practice material and for the confidence boost. Let's face it, she was grubby and too needy -- Irulan however is FINE!

[@joaov.candido8399]

Finally someone get it!

[@thedoughnutking9514]

alway the best content....

[@chuongdo8257]

What happened on Caladan after the attack on arakeen?

[@hammer1134]

Did you see what she was wearing though…? I would have walked in to that room and thought the same thing, I gotta marry her. Lol

[@javiervasquez625]

Personally she looked like a shiny statue during the climax to be honest lol.

[@jaythekid4728]

In the film was it just me or did Florence’s Pugh’s line delivery sound like it was recorded in Post with a slight autotune adjustment? She’s the only voice throughout the whole movie that felt awkward when hearing it.

[@jw-hy5nq]

Everyone misses the fact that Irulan was also a Bene Geserit and was also one of their prime bloodlines. Marrying her was a way of keeping the Bene Geserit docile in the hopes that he would continue their bloodline work. They would do nothing to harm the efforts of securing the Atredes bloodline again.

[@iceguy9723]

It was political to consolidate power and to prevent someone else from doing so. By not giving her children, he also halts a royal line.

[@aclock2]

Irulan's children would have much stronger claim to the throne than Chani's children so

[@sethterwilliger9434]

them changing channi and paul releationship really wrecked this dune movie

[@renuvatio9986]

I can see the marriage as a way to sow legitimacy among the great houses but the holy war the fremen don't really care about anything outside of Arrakis I believe Paul could have ruled without so much bloodshed but he had the vision of it so he made it happen a self fulfilling prophecy. I haven't watched part 2 yet but the other films tackled the same topic no one controls your fate but you he let the visions of the future governs his actions which to me is the reason knowing the future is so dangerous

[@javiervasquez625]

Pretty sure it's made clear through Paul's prescience that "freewill" is only an illusion as every possible outcome he tried to predict through said prescience only lead to similar consequences involving massive genocides which could not be avoided no matter what "decisions" he made.

[@priscillaparks9324]

It was his mother first. Trained and controllef him in the bene gesserit way! He loved his father! If the father had lived things would have been different? Remember his visions before voing to Dune! He is also a teenager being raised as killer fighter, witchcraft, pageantry, power, nobility, where is he going to go or be, lol, what a story!! He was sent their to gsin DESERT POWER! AND THE NATIVES WANTED THAT RATHER THAN COLONIZATION! 😊

[@tkendirli]

Herbert really understand the realities of power.

[@Rasidawg77]

Dude why didn't he say that in the movie cause when Channie Hurd that I could literally feel her pain of betrayal

[@Adrian-cl2tw]

He didn’t say that in the movie, so we had the scene of Chani getting upset.

[@priscillaparks9324]

I must read it again but I think she knew ahead in the book. This movie version changed some things.

[@ericvernon1182]

Just watch the David Lynch movie...yes its the Cliff Notes version but it hit all the major story points and does it in one (long) movie...

[@Shan_Dalamani]

Except for the banquet scene and the fight with Jamis. Filming in Mexico and some portion of the cast and crew down with food poisoning at any given time would have made doing the banquet scene problematic. They actually did film the fight with Jamis and the ceremony after, but I assume it was cut for time. That's why it's so frustrating to see Harah and her boys among the Fedaykin. People who didn't read the book always ask wtf those two children are doing there, and who's the woman? Book-Harah was never one of the fighters. She basically took over raising Alia when Jessica became too involved in Reverend Mother stuff and advising Paul to bother with her own daughter.

[@dilsherali3594]

No. Its a mess. Cutting and pasting scenes from the book is not hitting story points. Getting pretty much every story point wrong and not even alluding to the central conceit of Paul as a tragic hero whose actions have devastating consequences for the galaxy is not accurate. 1984 is your archetypal white saviour hero's journey, except this hero is also a genuine physical god who can make it rain (killing all the worms and hence no more spice, in the process), break concrete, with his voice, and bring peace n love. 😮 Thematically its totally empty with none of the themes and messages in the book. Visually it is arresting. Thats bout it sadly. Not Lynch's fault tho..the studio killed it dead.

[@alebe7224]

Thanks for the spoiler

[@jonathanmthomas2728]

Because after one look of her in that chain mail he couldnt resist

[@johnbts9216]

The Dune part 2 movie strayed so far from the book. Paul married Irulan in name only. He would never visit except for imperial events and had children with Chani who is a descendent of the Liet-Kynes line.

[@CantankerousDave]

Duh, it's a political marriage. Americans will be shocked to learn that romance wasn't the primary motivator behind marriages until quite recently, ESPECIALLY when nobility is involved. Look up Maria Theresa. I'm surprised that they left out the exchange between Jessica and Chani at the end that lays it out.

[@WickedPrince3D]

The answer would seem very simple, it was done several times in history. Paul's only legitimate claim to the throne is through marriage to the princess. Otherwise he'd face constant revolt if not outright civil war from the other noble houses.

[@brianwillerton8659]

I think Paul married her to get her away from her dreaded hair stylist...Ark-Ark-Ark!

[@yankeepapa304]

So in the film, Paul is shown dumping Chani for his "princess bride"...Chani leaves broken hearted. Maybe in three years there will be a sequel where Paul will convince Chani that he was just "funnin her... Or maybe she'll wake up, find Paul taking a shower and realize that it was all a dream. . Meanwhile, the book's brilliant move to gain the throne and at least delay the civil war is immediately thrown into the dust as the entire Landsraad is shown "dissing" Paul and rejecting his legitimacy... *instantly* causing him to order the Fremen to murder the entire Landsraad... Drifting a bit from Herbert's masterpiece... . But then, in the latest film, Chani was separated from the Fremen by her belonging to a clique of young people who lacked respect for the Fremen vision of the future and their religious heritage. Additionally, an attitude problem that seems to ignore the reality that women were respected in the Fremen culture...and unmarried adult-high women were permitted to be part of combat raiding parties. As art, the film was stunning... As representing Herbert's vision... not so much... YP

[@jeromerizzo423]

So he could have the Emperor's throne as revenge for killing Leto and to hold her captive if Shadam tries to harm him, or his friends and family. It would guarantee the safety if himself and his loved ones if he controlled Dune and the universe. While Shadam remains in exile.

[@Davepool-hs7vr]

Can you do a video on Duke Leto’s Trial by Forfeiture?

[@NerdCookies]

Explain?

[@Davepool-hs7vr]

@@NerdCookies when Beast Rabban uses a ship with the no-shield, he frames Leto Atriedes by attacking the Theilex ship. Leto does the trial by forfeiture to avoid a war.

[@Sigma1976-SS]

Great video ❤

[@NerdCookies]

Thanks!

[@keithwalker5078]

Paul having a child with the brillian Irulan would have been the correct move as she knows politics and is very smart and attractive.

[@keithwalker5078]

Once again the earlier Dune movies and series were much better written and followed the brilliant source material much better. Making chani a petty and bitter beatch was truly stupid and not thought thru. Irulan is a much better character in second movie and more attractive mate for Paul

[@Jiji_here_431]

Tell me you haven't read the books/ Understand them without telling me so

[@Igoy76]

The young wouldn't understand how this sort of thing works works. The poor Google generation didn't learn much in school

[@JaguarCats]

Kids, don't ever use religious extremists to achieve your goals in life, some one always gets hurt!

[@mlwmemphis]

Maybe the opening scene will be this

[@maineoutdoorsman677]

He could have took her asap captive and still ruled ,with chainie at his side ,.sould killed the empra an all the benageerst witches ,sould killed every world ,he is the. Ultimate Horconin

[@mitochondria6254]

your voice is great

[@michaelmartin8337]

To become Emperor - DUH 🙄

[@short72hp1]

Villeneuve movie. Chani from what I heard rejected Paul for doing this

[@CaptainAhorn]

Because she’s better-looking than Chani.