Why did Saruman abandon his mission? - Philosophy of Saruman the White I Tolkien Reading Day 2021

[@LoreOfTheRingsYT]

This is a part of the collaboration of the Tolkien Reading Day. I highly suggest you to check out the other contributions: kzbin.info/aero/PLGjqQlInod2U18X5Wdyv_EzcP5dkSoioe Happy Tolkien Reading Day!

[@MenoftheWest]

Hey buddy, it was great to work alongside you for the collab today! Saruman, in truth, failed to maintain hope and courage, while Gandalf held fast. Great video, my friend and cheers to our next collab!

[@denniscleary7580]

It’s great to see you here too Mellon. 😁

[@LoreOfTheRingsYT]

Same goes for you Yoystan! Very excited to be so fortunate to be a part of this once again! What you say is exactly it; Saruman's hope failed, and he despaired, resolving to other darker matters. Thanks for checking by, will definitely check out your contributions tomorrow, but first some sleep (it's way past midnight :P)...

[@erikdayne5429]

Not just hope but I think the OP was correct to list courage as well. Gandalf didn’t always have complete hope in the situation, he knew what they were up against, and he said several times how difficult it would be for them to succeed. Gandalf tried his best to maintain hope, but when his hope failed, his courage carried him through. When faced with the possibility of defeat, Gandalf resolved to go out fighting, Saruman chose to abandon his values to survive, and that was the difference between them.

[@TolkienTube]

Happy Tolkien Reading Day! It's been a blast doing this collab with yall!

[@LoreOfTheRingsYT]

Happy TRD! Awesome to have you here this year, let it become the first of many :)

[@denniscleary7580]

You know what they say, that absolute power corrupts absolutely. It’s great to see you working with Men of the West 👍

[@LoreOfTheRingsYT]

You know it Dennis :) I am very excited to take part in such a great collaboration with channels like the Men of the West!

[@NOIDEAIWILLJUSTUSEHAILEYIGUESS]

This makes one wonder, what would’ve happened had Aule fallen like saruman and sauron?

[@dws0828]

Yavanna would’ve been mad that’s for sure

[@thrithgolden2748]

Aule was the lesser of Melkor, yet I do believe it would have been even worse... But if you mean in place of Sauron, oh gosh.. it would be tragic, Aules' giftings were so needed in the the making whole much of the depths of destruction that Melkor let loose..

[@LoreOfTheRingsYT]

Aulë and Melkor were very similar. Just that Aulë was ever loyal to the designs of Eru, whilst Melkor rebelled. I think it's not unlikely that he would have been quite similar to Melkor, Hailey :)

[@sakellarioudimitris7439]

Let's all give our honor to Christopher Lee then. For he was a great actor and knew more about acting than anyone else. Rest in peace Chris.

[@KTChamberlain]

I know this video is on Saruman the White, but in my head canon I like to think the Blue Wizards went on to appear in Disney films: Alatar as Yensid in Disney's Fantasia (1940) and Pallando in Sword in the Stone (1963). If Disney did own the film rights, I imagine the Kingdom Hearts games would have a blast making that connection. In Kingdom Hearts II they already had Christopher Lee voice Diz, they might as well have said, "Hey, Mr. Lee, while you're here, would you like to reprise Saruman?" to which he'd say sure why not, considering how many times he reprised Dracula.

[@LoreOfTheRingsYT]

Interesting connection there KT :D Alternate bridges between fantasy yes?

[@nigelomacnigilson3089]

I wonder is Saruman would have ever regained power and threatened the free peoples again had Tolkien written sequels. Seems like he fits in a natural progression of each Dark Lord being somewhat lesser than, and corrupted by, the previous one.

[@ciaranmulroy9325]

That's a great fit. It does seem a logical next step after Lotr, narrative wise. Would have loved to read it

[@krakentacos]

Excellent insight!! Thanks for explaining the process that changed Saruman "Help came from the hands of the weak"... I love that. As I see more & more of our forest and natural beauty being destroyed & burned to make way for impatient developers greedy for the hunt of money. I really think Tolkien saw these things as well with growing move to industrialiation and pollution, not to mention war!!

[@LoreOfTheRingsYT]

Indeed, his descriptions of nature are very vivid. We know for a fact that he hated the abuse of industry.

[@quaffdowngin]

Brilliant!

[@LoreOfTheRingsYT]

Thank you :)

[@ThePhilosophersGames]

Very cool video ^^ I like the point you make at the end about Aulë, who humbled himself and saw his mistake, while Saruman did not and that maybe the nature of Aulë and his Maiar was more prone to leave their path and potentially do terrible things. PS: Also nice collaborating with you and the others :)

[@LoreOfTheRingsYT]

Thanks Chris, awesome collaboration for sure :)

[@ThePhilosophersGames]

@@LoreOfTheRingsYT Yes was fun ^^

[@paradox7358]

Every villain is a hero of his own story.

[@LoreOfTheRingsYT]

Exactly :)

[@danielcorrales4359]

Idk man, I think melkor knew he was the bad guy and loved every single minute of it. That's what I gathered anyway.

[@morgant.dulaman8733]

I wonder if Saruman stayed on the side of Eru and the Free People's could he have used his voice, wisdom, and influence to try mending the rifts between Middle Earth's different peoples, or undoing the damage wrought by Morgoth and Sauron? Imagine the war of the ring if the Dunlandings had fought alongside Rohan, and both were more learned and advanced. Eriador could have been made more cohesive and the Dwarfs could have enjoyed greater aid in their wars with the goblins. On that note, could Saruman have used his talents to try and mend the goblins and orcs? I've always been fascinated by whether or not they were inherently evil, or if, for many, it was largely do to growing up in a civilization whose roots went back to Morgoth's empire, and the rest of the world thought them irredeemable and hateful anyway. If they'd had a chance to be something more, would they have taken it?

[@SolidSnnake]

thats what ya get for being a smarty pants

[@LoreOfTheRingsYT]

XD

[@ethansaucier2917]

So, in other words, when did Saruman The Wise abandon reason for madness?

[@LoreOfTheRingsYT]

I would say it was gradual, one doesnt simply become evil or night. It made its first presence at the second council meeting tho :)

[@blackmetalnazgul4519]

I know it's a video about Saruman, but I'm gonna start counting the many times you say "Sauron" in your videos. 😜 but I mean that in a good way, cuz I like hearing you say Saurons name. 👍😁

[@LoreOfTheRingsYT]

You are in for a treat then my friend!

[@BJETNT]

This is why gandalf is my favorite character in the whole legendarium. Saruman was the most powerful to begin with until gandalf the White came along. Absolute power corrupts absolutely apparently but it never did with Gandalf. And saruman could not touch gandalf the White. I've been in positions where I had power over a lot of people and I can honestly say I did the right thing. But I've never had powers like a wizard. I like to think I would have been like gandalf. I'm a bodybuilder and a professional bodyguard and I've never lost a fight in my life. And the thing in this world that I covet the most is nice people. I was one of the lucky ones to have the best mom on the planet though. Otherwise I probably would have been a serial killer. I honestly think saruman would have made a massive difference if he would have remained on the good guys side. There would have been no Battle of helms deep. All of them would still be alive including the elves and they could have fought in the battle of the pelinor fields in front of Minas Tirath. There's nothing I hate More than people abusing their power. I've enjoyed beating the hell out of many of them. Sorry Mom was the strongest and he should have been the best of them.

[@NarutoJK-jh7tr]

Aule must be depressed that 2 of his maiar became evil, rip Aule

[@ewanmenziesstevens5211]

good Tolkien Reading Day video. I will always like your vedos.

[@LoreOfTheRingsYT]

Glad you like them Ewan :)

[@dodgykingdom7502]

Saruman abandoned reason for madness!

[@LoreOfTheRingsYT]

Indeed Dodgy!

[@ryancardona1296]

Saruman is a very interesting character and his fall is very tragic. I always wonder what would happen if saruman was actually a triple agent. Despite his personality his deeds and his selfishness for the one ring his job was to defeat sauron and the only way he could do that was to be sauron’s temporary ally until he had enough resources and his army was strong enough; by the time sauron knew his betrayal saruman would’ve been ready and come back to free peoples side and really convince the free people that he planned this the entire time. Perhaps the free people union would have been a little strong enough with saruman’s army. Kinda feels like saruman was trying too hard to prove to others that he is a true hero but it led to his corruption

[@BJETNT]

I never did like saruman I thought he was a jerk. Gandalf to me was everything he was supposed to be and looked out for others more than he looked out for himself. He was a god among men. Sauramon was a man with God powers. Gandalf was so much more than him. The two of them together could have made Earth or middle earth a way better place if they would have been able to work together rather than the white just working for himself

[@BazzBrother]

um...he fell because grimma stabbed him in the back after the actor instructed Peter on the actual physical damages that result from such a stabbing OH, you mean fall psychologically. um Palpatine corrupted him?

[@aleksander8497]

Why is Eru depicted as female?

[@LoreOfTheRingsYT]

That all depends on the eyes who sees :) I perceive it as a male.

[@aleksander8497]

Yes that artist's interpretation does not coincide with the book.

[@LoreOfTheRingsYT]

Well, we don't really know what Eru looks like, do we? I love this interpretation

[@JesusFriedChrist]

I think Eru is beyond being strictly male or female. I think he would be both at once, because he encompasses everything all at once, because from him everything in the universe derives. According to the story.

[@grandadmiralzaarin4962]

My favorite character. His impatience with others, his envy of Gandalf and his pride in his own ability and wisdom led him to corruption. As Treebeard said, "He was always hasty, that was his ruin."

[@LoreOfTheRingsYT]

Well said. One of my favourites too!

[@grandadmiralzaarin4962]

@@LoreOfTheRingsYT I often find the parallels between Saruman and Dooku to be fascinating and I would not be surprised if the character of Saruman had partly inspired Dooku. Not least of which that the late great Sir Christopher Lee played both parts at the same time. Both were prideful to the point of arrogance, both were held in high esteem, both were regarded as wise and models to aspire to for the side of good and originally sought to destroy evil, but both grew impatient with the seemingly inadequate or incompetent allies and sought to use the ends to justify their means and in doing so were misled and used by Dark Lords that cast them aside and both rejected opportunities for redemption.

[@NerdoftheRings]

Greetings, mellon! So great to be in a collab with you once again! As always, great job on this vid. Saruman is definitely a fascinating character!

[@LoreOfTheRingsYT]

Thank you Matt! Very excited for this stuff, and it will only become greater for each year :) Thanks for stopping by, will watch all the contributions this evening :)

[@RobSojourn]

I have always been curious why the Maia of Aule never really associated with his Dwarf children. Particularly Saruman

[@LoreOfTheRingsYT]

Although they were of his kin, they were of course their own unique prominent figures that were not answerable to their vala once being out of their reach. I agree tho, it seems that the Dwarves never really met Aulë. But does one really meets ones creator in Tolkien's Works? Great discussion Rob!

[@jamesbradleysears7188]

Perhaps their is unkown lore of Saruman among dwarves in the east.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Great stuff. I love how Tolkien gives so many factors that might have led Saruman down the wrong path. It’s one of many examples of how nuanced and complex his world and characters are.

[@LoreOfTheRingsYT]

Thank you so much :) I agree, wholeheartedly: Saruman is not "just" evil, there's reasons to the existence of his evil. Thanks for stopping by :)

[@lfwinesroad3399]

Happy Tolkien Reading Day!

[@LoreOfTheRingsYT]

Happy TRD! Thanks for paying a visit, will take the time to watch your contribution in the evening :D

[@marckrieger3277]

Now i have the feeling i am one of this attentive readers. Good video as allways. Maybe the alliance of sauron and saruman is a topic for an other video. I get felt like both just used each other to reach their goals, ready to betray each other when given an oportunity. Did'nt gandalf said to pippin if mordor and isengart would be neighbors they would go to war and the winner would be even stronger? But i think your explination of sauron controlling saruman is valid as well. Sauron was a very powerfull maya and skilled in controlling other people.

[@LoreOfTheRingsYT]

You are certainly one that is attentive :) Great idea for a video actually, I will write that down! Might even do it soon!

[@LordWyatt]

“You have interfered with our affairs for the last time!” -Saruman, probably

[@bauglir2462]

Valar: "Hey Aüle, which of your maiar w ------" Aüle: "Ooohh NO!!🤦🏿‍♂️🤦🏿‍♂️🤦🏿‍♂️🤦🏿‍♂️🤦🏿‍♂️"

[@shanenolan8252]

Thanks my friend good subject , working my way through the play list , I had forgotten the date , quality video yet again sir

[@LoreOfTheRingsYT]

Glad you enjoy Shane :)

[@queirol2126]

He was encouraged by Manwes incompetence to deal with anything outside o Valinor.

[@LoreOfTheRingsYT]

His own perception of Manwë's lack of intervention yes :)

[@queirol2126]

@@LoreOfTheRingsYT I mean he wasn't wrong, Eru had to intervine. Again. Not capturing Sauron after the War of Wrath was a mistake to put it mildly.

[@mos4396]

👏

[@c.ladimore1237]

how much would a redeemed saruman have helped in the final battle? it might have hurt it actually.

[@FourthFloorParkour]

It seems really weird to me that he could resist Morgoth’s sway but not Sauron’s

[@leethompson-kolar6333]

SO HE COULD LEARN TO PICK HIMSELF UP.

[@tylerbarrett6652]

Saruman calls himself "ring maker".... what do you make of that? Did he have a ring that he made? to what end?

[@LoreOfTheRingsYT]

Check my other comment :) Thanks for the great questions!

[@Crafty_Spirit]

Hi :-) Do you have an idea why Saruman opposed the attack on Dol Guldur initially? Because if he already wanted the ring for himself back then, this should have aided his course by displacing Sauron. I wonder if he merely opposed it to belittle Gandalf who proposed this or was there a more intelligent reason?

[@LoreOfTheRingsYT]

The reason Sauron opposed it was because he hoped the Ring would come into light. The Ring were naturally drawn towards the power of Sauron when he turned his will towards it. This made Saruman believe that it could come to the surface, and he hoped to find it before Sauron. Great question Crafty!

[@Crafty_Spirit]

@@LoreOfTheRingsYT Thanks :-)

[@trigilaen]

Everyday is Tolkien Reading Day! ❤

[@LoreOfTheRingsYT]

Yes :D

[@cjheaford]

In Tolkien’s work, there are indeed beings that were inherently evil from the start. Ungoliant is an example.

[@LoreOfTheRingsYT]

Well even her must have been influenced by the music surely? For what reason, we know not!

[@cjheaford]

@@LoreOfTheRingsYT I don’t believe Ungoliant to be a product of the music. Of course we have no way of knowing, but I believe Ungoliant to be of the same order as Eru Illuvatar. Without the Flame Imperishable and much less powerful- but still of the void before the music. Love your channel!

[@karayama100]

He had no wings to fly, but still desired to fly somehow

[@LoreOfTheRingsYT]

Well said :)

[@karayama100]

@@LoreOfTheRingsYT Thank you he he)