Why Dune is Star Wars for Adults

This video can get pretty crazy but so can science fiction, so bear with us.
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[@davidedod195]

I think the prequels were the closest to the how dark it was to Dune. Corruption, war, its basically a story of how liberation dies.

[@babalu7737]

also think about it the trade federation had a seat in the senat the senat who only have 10000 seats and ther are trilions of systems who have like alwayse 60 planets thats why the galactic empire had so much suport from the commen peopel

[@krinkrin5982]

With thunderous applause.

[@myself2noone]

The prequels where a half assed metaphor on the Iraq War. George Bush didn't establish a hereditary monarchy so implying they're in any sense "grown up." Is a little bit silly.

[@krinkrin5982]

@@myself2noone The prequels were definitely bad when they came out, but I also feel like a lot of people didn't understand what was going on, based on comments like 'why would he attack his own troops?' I am not versed in US politics, but I've heard that the system there is closer to an oligarchy, with the same few families predominantly running for seats.

[@21scavage]

@@krinkrin5982 lol wrong. The US government is not an oligarchy. We are a democratic constitutional republic. Power isn’t just handed down to politicians kids. People vote.

[@1lobster]

The lack of religion was definitely always the least believable thing about Star Trek.

[@TheBayzent]

I thought it wasmthe functional leftist society. *tips fedora*

[@brunoacostasilva]

@@TheBayzent Obviously it would only happen in fiction.

[@daweedpotrawa3042]

Star Trek DS9 wants to know your location

[@1lobster]

@@daweedpotrawa3042 definitely my favorite Star Trek series. For that exact reason. But I do have one critique of DS9. I don’t think black people will remember, much less care, about racism 400 years from now.

[@k--music]

@@1lobster Do you not remember, much less care, about history from the 1600s back?

[@adansilveira2031]

Nest video: "Why Warhammer 40k is Star Wars for Alpha Male Gigachads".

[@calluxdoaron1903]

Me explaining Horus heresy lore for 23 hours in a row: My wife:

[@thanghoangsong6138]

Nah 40k is not really that much better, but the Grimdark aspect of it is very appealing tho , atleast to me

[@calluxdoaron1903]

@@thanghoangsong6138 I know, slight WH40 adept myself. But yeah, WH got this sort of reputation of extreme geeks who can teach you all the lore in 100 hoursection about every Primarch, every known guardsman hero, etc. And also bug collection of figures costing 40000 bucks and kidney of a stolen kid.

[@indrickboreale7381]

Because 8 feet-tall men in ceramic power armours shoot with assault rifles with explosive rounds and slash with swords combined with chainsaws

[@Vapor.Steve77]

i've always thought of 40K as an expansion from Dune, at least the only worthy spiritual succesor

[@abuseinterrupted]

You don't touch on it in this (fantastic) video, but one idea that I think resonates specifically for adults in the Dune universe is the idea of ''humans' v. 'animals. Not in the sense of an 'ubermensch' or genetically engineered person, but the idea that what makes us human is that we can overcome or control our base instincts. What gaming culture/porn is doing in our society is providing a highly addictive hedonic treadmill for people to endlessly feed a pleasure directive that can never be satiated; it fosters extended adolescence. Whereas concepts of adulthood are rooted in duty and responsibility. In order to effectuate our duty, we have to control our instinct toward pleasure and away from pain, toward escapism and away from labor/contribution. In order to be adults we have to be responsible. Being responsible, in this sense, is what makes us 'human'.

[@janfungusamon4926]

I tried writing this comment and failed but I'm glad someone actually said what I was thinking lol. id like to add that this pattern in a person's psyche also continues in our larger institutions and social systems, making it so that we can totally escape this destructive cycle that dune portrays and have a future a lot more like star trek if we think long term and stop chasing pleasure and ease.

[@AliciatheCho]

This is thought-provoking. How did you arrive to this insight?

[@god-of-logic99]

Yeah but the downside of that is hyper masculine warlike people's like the sardaukar and fremen or Nazis and the Japs in real life. Hyper feminist societies end up breaking down and are unsustainable in their own right as the modern woke west is with its demographics so it invites hyper masculine conservative immigrants from a hyper masculine conservative religion (islam) which ends up making western people either tough again with the rise of right wing governments in the west like you see now. The right is crazy but the left wing is delusional about the world and unsustainable. However the left are the ones who will protest against war and the right will encourage and support your home country so it's your pick. Until I grew up I didn't understand that modernity is a myth we tell ourselves and human civilization is same as during the times of the bronze age with only societal trends varying.

[@darkroninmarvel]

Well to be fair Star Wars, at least before Disney ruined everything, was pretty much "eastern philosophy for dummies" when you take a closer look. But Dune goes straight hard philosophy

[@danielwilliamson6180]

Star Wars is one of my inspirations as a aspiring sci-fi fantasy artist.

[@ultron374]

That's why I love Dune and philosophy of it. It is complex there.

[@SoloRenegade]

Dune was Lawrence Arabia in space. The book was written years after the movie came out.

[@ultron374]

I like both but yes Dune is more for adults ( adult sci fi) and deals with more difficult topics ( e.g colonialism, authoritarian power, criticism on messianic figures in religions that might lead fanaticism) where Star Wars is more family entertainment movies, it's meant more suitable for kids ( good vs bad where the good wins), in Dune each personality is a grey area as in life

[@douglas_fir]

@@ultron374 Yeah I'd say the star wars sequels fit that little Disney kid frame perfectly... The original trilogy, plus the prequels together now that I think about it, seemed to be more of a heavy transformation and redemption story for Anakin.

[@AscendantStoic]

IMO Starwars has a lot more universal appeal with more focus on heroism, adventure and action and generally more universal themes, while Dune is more niche, bleak and mature, less interested in heroism and more interested in tragedy .. it deals with a very specific core message "Beware charismatic leaders" that might not interest all people considering how in-depth the story goes exploring this singular idea.

[@adamnesico]

That was the first planned book, the message ended in the book 2. And wich was the message of the books 3-6?

[@AscendantStoic]

@@adamnesico It's IMO a variation of the same theme just taken in a different direction or rather to an extreme, asking "But what if the charismatic leader had truly god-like powers" (in our case Leto II merging with the worms and becoming the all powerful God Emperor), I'm not very familiar with Frank's religious beliefs but this also feels IMO like a bit of a criticism or at the very least exploration of the idea of what if said charismatic leader was God himself, a somewhat all knowing all powerful being (hence the use of God in God Emperor).

[@adamnesico]

@@AscendantStoic Leto saves mankind. Where is The criticism? And you didn’t said about books 5-6. I see the later books more like the exploration of the evolution of hia fictional society.

[@AscendantStoic]

@@adamnesico I didn't say it's necessarily a criticism at this point, more of a exploration of the theme of the charismatic leader in a different way. Also I specifically pointed out that I didn't know Frank's religious beliefs, maybe he thinks that the only charismatic leader that has the right to be a tyrant is one that truly has god powers like Leto II (who could be considered a stand in for God), I don't know exactly why he went in that direction, just that he did.

[@natzbarney4504]

But there is universal appeal in great tragedy too! Since storytelling is a thing, humanity has always told itself deeply tragic stories. Most of greatest stories who have stood the test of time are pure tragedy. I in fact think that Dune may have more universal appeal than Star Wars but just did not receive a proper adaptation to reach vast audiences until recently.

[@bendu8282]

A few things I have to correct here about Star Wars. The Jedi were drafted into the clone wars and only fought the separatist under The Republic’s orders by Chancellor Palpatine. They had no intention of getting involved with the war, they just wanted to defeat The Sith that has been they’re reason for being apart of The Republic to start with. They were there to bring Order and Peace To The Galaxy, values The Republic preached. This was after The Sith ruled The Universe 1,000 years before Episode 1 and destroyed themselves because they couldn’t co exist with each other due to being to power hungry. According to George that was a time of turmoil and chaos, The Republic was formed to bring Justice, Equality, Peace and Freedom under a democracy but got corrupt as hell due to politicians and politics controlling the vast decisions that effect The Galaxy and Universe. “[The Jedi] are not like cops who catch murderers. They're warrior-monks who keep peace in the universe without resorting to violence. The Trade Federation is in dispute with Naboo, so the Jedi are ambassadors who talk to both sides and convince them to resolve their differences and not go to war. If they have to use violence, they will, but they are diplomats at the highest level. They've got the power to send the whole force of the Republic, which is 100000 systems, so if you don't behave they can bring you up in front of the Senate. They'll cut you off at the knees, politically. They're like peace officers. As the situation develops in the Clone Wars they are recruited into the army, and they become generals. They're not generals. They don't kill people. They don't fight. They're supposed to be ambassadors. There are a lot of Jedi that think that the Jedi sold out, that they should never have been in the army, but it's a though call. It's one of those conundrums, of which there's a bunch of in my movies. You have to think it through. Are they going to stick by their moral rules and all be killed, which makes it irrelevant, or do they help save the Republic? They have good intentions, but they have been manipulated, which was their downfall.” - George Lucas

[@AhidoMikaro]

If the Jadi use force to make people listen to them, they can't act surprised if one day someone says no to them and they actually have to use said force, otherwise they get revealed to be toothless and nobody will bother listening after that.

[@bendu8282]

@@AhidoMikaro I don’t see your point

[@nathansteinfromarkham7109]

Jedi sympathizer

[@The_preserver_x16]

@@bendu8282 I believe his point was that regardless of George’s initial statement it’s been elaborate upon the fact that the Jedi basically ruled the galaxy through the republic in one way or another. If you look into the lore you’ll found out how they began caring too much about politics as they did often kill people who disagree with them, even if the republic for which they ruled was the primary instigator of the injustices. They care… only to the extent of preserving the safe position in the galaxy. I even recall how one comic discussed how those who become Jedi often come from affluent backgrounds, while those who become sith come from poverty or exploitation at the hands of the galaxy itself. Helll the Jedi literally committed genocide to the original Sith species after they were already incompasitated. They Jedi have never been purely good or justified, they are just a lesser evil compared to everyone else as the advocate for peace and community, where the sith advocate for power at all cost, even if perverse or self destructive.

[@ShamanMcLamie]

I have one disagreement. I don't think the Jedi were drafted into the Grand Army of the Republic so much as they were tricked. Basically the Jedi became attached to their status in the Galaxy and the Galactic Republic they served and afforded them this status. This made them fearful of losing it all to the Sith, which made them lead the Clone Army(they never questioned the morality of using what was a slave army of mass produced life) and fight the most destructive conflict seen in a thousand years. That Army ended up being the instrument of their destruction. The Jedi were not thinking clearly, their actions were clouded by fear. I also want to clarify these attachments weren't completely selfish, although were some what greedy. They along with the Republic achieved enormous good and they couldn't quite grasp how rotten the Republic was and that it might not be good to continue serving it, especially when faced by the re-emergence of the Sith a force they saw as actively bringing about calamity and oppression. The Republic maybe corrupt, but atleast it isn't the Sith. If the Jedi had not had these attachments and especially fear of the Sith they probably wouldn't have fought in the Clone Wars and remained neutral and would have accepted losing their status within the Republic. Instead continuing to serve the Galaxy by trying to mediate peace between the two sides and bringing relief to war torn systems. A big reason why Yoda tells Luke not to run off and try and save his friends in Episode 5 is because Luke isn't driven by knowledge and reason, but by his fear driven by his attachment to his friends. Yoda and the Jedi's fear of the Sith is what drove them to war and their own demise and having learned his lesson from the Clone Wars didn't want Luke to repeat the same mistake. Attachment, particularly the fear of loss is what drives a lot of our self inflicted suffering. There is a saying, "You attract what you fear."

[@lucagerulat307]

Star wars is misunderstood by many especially the original trilogy. Its a mix of the classical hero story and partisan movies from the Eastern block. George himself admired soviet filmmaking and managed to adept the good aspect of soviet movies into wester cinema. Another example of this is rouge one which mixed the individual hero journey of jyn with a classic multi background partisan team on an important self-sacrificing mission. The fight between the empire and the rebels is not science fiction but historical reality like the fight between nazi Germany and partisans in Eastern Europe or the viet-Kong against the US.

[@RRTNZ]

Dune is great sci fi, but OG Star Wars is amazing escapism and definitely for adults - believe it or not, you can have both. Now the Star Wars sequel trilogy, that's for 8 year olds only.

[@natzbarney4504]

Well Dune is awesome escapism too, and the Villeneuve movie is also incredible in that aspect in my opinion. But it's also legit to say it goes a lot deeper than SW in reflection about religion, society, class structure, ecology and lots of other things.

[@RRTNZ]

@@natzbarney4504 here's the thing, I'm drawing a distinction between sci fi, which does all those things you say it does, and escapism. Both have themes but Star Wars isn't commentary, it's just good storytelling. In that sense, I don't think of Dune as escapist, because the points it makes about politics, religion, etc. Very much relate to the world that Star Wars is helping me escape from.

[@natzbarney4504]

@@RRTNZ Ok, I understand, fair point.

[@RRTNZ]

@@natzbarney4504 hey man, no sweat, we just see things differently.

[@jamespaguip5913]

Clone wars really good

[@Benjaminy2k]

Don't apologise for making the video essays! That's what I subscribed for!

[@nicokrasnow1851]

I always took the Republic and the Empire in SW as a half-alegory to Rome

[@justinamerican8200]

With the Jedi as the Praetorian Guard. Yes.

[@nicokrasnow1851]

@@justinamerican8200 never thought of that, but it's accurate

[@revolverswitch]

America is referred to as a second Rome by the -(redacted)-

[@motor4X4kombat]

what star wars fans expect when it for adults: gore, violence, sex, and any taboo thing from game of thrones. what they really should have expected: philosophical talk about politics and society, metaphors about existentialism and human nature, dominace, opresions, and any "boring" thing they dislike from the star wars prequels hell even for a pg-13 movie it feels more dark and mature than most pg-13 movies or shows now days. Hell its even more mature than the boys.

[@bjehulk]

So could you say Star Wars fans expect, violence in movies and sex on tv?

[@motor4X4kombat]

@@bjehulk yes

[@atomicspartan131]

@@bjehulk but where are those good old-fashioned values on which we used to rely?

[@mywigflewtoasia1300]

💀💀

[@damiantirado9616]

If you think the prequels where good simply cause they had “political talk” proves your lack of good taste in films

[@victorm152]

I love both Star Wars and Dune...I don't treat one as better than the other...I treat the stories I love as equally good in their own unique and different ways.

[@zerocool5395]

Totally agree, I also do the same with Xbox and Playstation, Chevy and Ford, etc.

[@jonconnington5784]

Now this is a great comment.

[@brunonogueira3424]

wtff?? this was the most intelligent video i've ever seen, i expected nothing and you had such STRONG arguments based on very strong sources. amazing.

[@deriznohappehquite]

Star Wars was compatible with the “every citizen a soldier” idea when Jedi were space wizards, before the comic book industry turned them into superheroes. an army of human clones took down the entire Jedi order.

[@crusader2112]

To be fair, the clone’s weren’t just average grunts, but clones of Jango Fett, a Mandalorian Bounty Hunter who along with his people have a history of fighting the Jedi.

[@crusader2112]

@@LeavingGoose046 He was a Mandalorian Bounty Hunter according to the Pre-Disney Expanded Universe and if we’re not using that we can still infer that he’s had some heavy training. More so than the average joe.

[@crusader2112]

@@LeavingGoose046 Okay and the clones were trained. I’m talking about average joes with no training probably couldn’t take down a Jedi.

[@HolyknightVader999]

The Jedi were the special forces, even in the comics, their superhero qualities can still be canceled out by clever mooks who use the right tech to take them down. Even the OP Sith use said OP powers as a last resort when every bridge has been burned and they couldn't do anything else.

[@smokedbeefandcheese4144]

@@crusader2112 Storm troopers helped hunt down a bunch of Jedi two so it can be done by them as well

[@jackreynolds1062]

I don’t typically comment on videos but I wanted to add a bit regarding the positive relationship between technological development and religious devotion. As mentioned, this has started to happen recently, however when looking historically this also pans out. The 19th century is a very good example of this; the same century that saw such advances as the Industrial Revolution, the steam engine, and marvels of modern architecture such as the Eiffel Tower also saw the Great Awakenings in the U.S., evangelical and Anglo-Catholic revivals in Britain, the construction of major churches such as the Sacre-Coeur in France and Sagrada Familia in Spain, and the development of doctrines within the Catholic Church such as Catholic social teaching and the Immaculate Conception. Even more recently, it’s interesting to note that the latest Great Awakening led by individuals like Billy Graham in the 1960s and 1970s also happened to occur during the height of the Space Race. I’m not as familiar with these cultures as I am with the West, but even looking at things such as the rise of Islamic fundamentalism in the Middle East and Hindu nationalism in India, it wouldn’t surprise me if these trends were more of a result of the recent technological developments we’ve seen rather than in spite of them based on historical trends, and I fully anticipate that the next few decades will see another Great Awakening in the West of some sort.

[@peachesandcream8753]

I think we are seeing a Great Awakening in the West but it's mostly hippies pretending they believe in Buddhism and other non-Abrahamic religions. "Spiritualism" has been gaining popularity as well. With the rise of Conservatism we are slowly seeing more and more people becoming interested in Christianity, mostly people who were brought up as atheists, and actually going to church.

[@runajain5773]

Hindu rather is cultural revival nationtionalism

[@HierophanticRose]

"Liking a fictional universe doesnt mean you have to live in it" Argument I have to make every time I say I like 40k(Now here is a universe that I think has more in common and in a more deeper way with Dune than Star Wars) And as someone who discovered Dune via 40k much later (Which blew my mind too when I did)- I agree with your analysis in that, knowing Star Wars and 40k makes me enjoy Dune more. And it gives deeper context to those works simultaneously. Also, nicely done on the social, societal and class analysis of Dune, now I am curious as to your opinions on human essentialism in Dune, and how the book explores it - where it succeeds, where it fails, what is says about our societal and civilizational anxieties. I think the book series most fascinating part is how human ability in extremes have replaced computing aid, but has also divided people and gave them all singular, incomplete outlooks - kind of like Gattaca in some ways. It would be interesting to hear your opinions on Heinlein as well, as most people write him off as a crypto-fascist (while also loving the Federation in Star Trek - I'm sorry but that Heinlein's Federation, if you know, you know) , not understanding where he is coming from. But really, the man was of a singularly unique worldview.

[@kasrkin100]

Funny enough Wh40K most Element come from Dune.

[@Yarblocosifilitico]

Dune is definitely darker and more profound with it's philosophizing, but people often forget how dark the SW lore is. At least the Prequels. The entire clone thing is a villian masterplan come to fruition. The clones themselves are basically child-soldiers that are not only indoctrinated, but genetically modified to be docile. And the good guys use them, only to be betrayed by them, which is the start of the evil empire. Anakin's story, which is at the core of SW, is very tragic, too. I'd say that, rather than more mature, Dune is atheist and SW is spiritual. That's the main difference for me. Dune makes you think more, for sure, but ultimately SW has a concrete, specific moral to the story which everyone gets, and Dune doesn't; Dune forces you to make up your mind about pretty much everything. Both are great, imo. But yeah, I agree Dune requires a certain maturity to be enjoyed, while SW can be enjoyed in a more 'casual' way. If I ever have kids I'll watch SW with them way sooner than Dune, that's for sure.

[@SoloRenegade]

Dune was Lawrence Arabia in space. The book was written years after the movie came out. Star Wars is Greek Mythology, WW2 (many planets and other elements in Star Wars are named for people and places in WW2), buddhism elements in the Jedi, Buck Rogers, etc.

[@rgama1173]

This also explains why tony stark didn't make his iron man armour public, it would have had the same effect you describe here

[@PilgrimsPass]

exactly, this was originally meant for an Iron man video. very astute.

[@rgama1173]

@@PilgrimsPass thanks man

[@gonkdroid8279]

@@PilgrimsPass Would love to see an Iron Man video in the future though!

[@justinamerican8200]

Robot armies are something to lose sleep over. Also, I feel that examinations of this kind are rather pointless with regards to Star Wars. The poor writing skills of Lucas mixed with the cornucopia of writers with a wide range of talent and personal philosophies from all the other assorted Star Wars media means that whatever thesis you're divining from the material is going to lead to a lot of logical cul-de-sacs and inconsistencies; you're going to give credit for Star Wars being complex just because there's a lot of it. At the same time, if you strip Star Wars down to its core as best you can, you could make an argument that Star Wars is more "Dune for optimists or red pills" and Dune is "Star Wars for pessimists, cynics, or black pills"; I'm not sure that makes one of them fundamentally more mature than the other. Then again, if you want "Dune for optimists", Lord of the Rings is a far better counterpoint. It's not difficult to see why Tolkien would loathe Dune considering that he wrote despair as one of the shittiest things of which people are capable. For myself, I'm 47 and have already gone through my trendy-condescending-nihilistic phase and have entered a more willfully-optimistic-even-if-I-have-to-kill-everyone-to-get-there phase. I still like Dune though. =)

[@PilgrimsPass]

good points. I agree with a lot, Star Wars is a group effort that went beyond George Lucas, and yes I have to pick and choose the good writers. You're right about that and I agree with what you said about Tolkien and the comparison between Star Wars and Dune. And robot Armies bother me too, here's hoping for a butlerian Jihad lol.

[@1000nod]

@@PilgrimsPass I got to ask is these were star trek went wrong.gene try purifying his vision(TNG) but damaged it, but lucas was wiling to share and it grew from there.

[@facilegoose9347]

Puts the Minute Man citizen-soldier concept of 2A into limbo when armored SkyNet dogs are swarming.

[@maxstirner6143]

if you want Dune for optimist there's a book and a series of films named "Starship troopers" (disclaimer: novels and films share only the name and a bit of the core philosophy) You will enjoy it.

[@justinamerican8200]

@@maxstirner6143 You just named my most read and favorite book from my most read and favorite author. I don't know that I've ever seen Starship Troopers as an 'optimistic' book, rather it's more of a book about personal responsibility within a society or unit, a community's responsibility within other communities, all from the perspective of the ultimate pragmatist. I'd say it's one of the books that defines my personal perspective.

[@edenmckinley3472]

A lot of people forget that Star Wars is supposed to take place a long time ago in a galaxy far far away. It's not a prediction of the future, like Dune, it's more like an alternate history of humanity. At it's core, it's meant to be more whimsical and full of possibility. This is important to remember when comparing the two. Also, I adore these videos, but they make me angry because I am a writer and they force me to take a closer look at my own worldbuilding. I have a race of warrior elves who are the only ones in their world, up until the time of my story, to have magic users. The magic users are extremely rare, and appear in this race because of unique DNA, which is enhanced with the practice of eugenics. I tried to do something different with my magic system and make the magic seen as a resource of war. This video and others like it have pushed me to think deep about the political and social implications of literally everything. I've come up with a philosophy that I feel fits well with the culture: the idea of a god-slave. Let me show you what I mean. This warrior society is pervaded with the ideals of noble sacrifice, and this shows in the way they treat their rulers. Kings are kept separate from their people to ensure impartiality, so the king can make tactical decisions from a bird's eye view (I understand this doesn't work perfectly in practice, but that's what they believe). Their aristocracy are warriors who have climbed to the top by their own merit, although it helps to be related to other aristocracy. A magic user, one who is the closest thing this society has to a pope or a deity, would not be viewed solely as a thing to worship. Their job demands that they give their mind, body, and soul to the king and to their job. This is because a side affect of using magic is the loss of one's sanity, which becomes so crippling that the magic user is at the mercy of others in everything but battle. So when the magic user gets to the point where they are a drooling idiot, they need someone to take care of them and their family. They cannot depend on themselves, because they are slowly going insane, so they depend on the government. In exchange for security, status, and godhood, the magic user has to sacrifice their own freedom and personhood. Society sees this as a noble and appropriate thing, to the point where magic users are pressured into it without giving their consent. Magic users are not feared, because the government owns them. The government is feared because they own the magic users. I hope this makes sense.

[@PilgrimsPass]

pretty interesting. Go for it!

[@zj871023]

This kind of reminds me of Brent Weeks Lightbringer Series.

[@smokedbeefandcheese4144]

That makes sense and sounds interesting I don’t even know if you have to rethink much

[@king_supreme1102]

It’s debatable that this was ever even the intent. That is the way audiences interpreted it, but in Universe “a long time ago in a galaxy far far away” is an account from the journal of the Whills.

[@ScotsThinker]

if I'm not mistaken, Dune significantly impacted almost all other sci-fi stories including Star Wars. Am I right in that statement?

[@HierophanticRose]

Yes, it is essentially because Dune and Foundation were the first "worldbuilt and immersive universes" written and imagined in Sci - fi

[@SoloRenegade]

Dune was Lawrence Arabia in space. The book was written years after the movie came out.

[@cy-one]

@@SoloRenegade Correlation is not causation.

[@SoloRenegade]

@@cy-one Starship Troopers, Star Wars, and numerous others were all inspired by real events, particularly WW2. Given the incredible similarities, it very likely served as part of the inspiration for Dune. Just as people accuse Avatar of being "Dances with Wolves" or "Pocahontas" in space, Dune is a near carbon copy of Lawrence of Arabia. And even if I'm right, there is nothing wrong with that.

[@cy-one]

@@SoloRenegade The IF does some heavy lifting there. There is _one_ story element (Paul adapting into the society of the Fremen and fighting against Emperor Corrino) that's similar to _the plot_ of Lawrence from Arabia. Considering _everything else_ (for example comparing why Lawrence is sent to Arabia (to fight the Ottomans) to why Paul is on Arrakis (his house, of which he isn't the leader at that part in time, is sent there to be annihilated, the Fremen and their conflict with the empire don't even play a role in why House Atreides is sent to Arrakis.)) does actually not line up with Lawrence from Arabia - or am I missing where Lawrence is the father of two children who can nearly mind-read each other?), calling it a "near carbon copy" is ... _wild._

[@africanzungu7350]

You make absolutely incredible content man. The amount of well conveyed difficult ideas and seamless exploration of conceptual realities is absolutely incredible. Keep up the great work

[@pseudonymousbeing987]

Quite a number of thought provoking points. Well done sir. This will definitely influence my conversations in the near future.

[@danielwilliamson6180]

George Lucas never acknowledged that Dune was one of his inspirations between Star Wars as Star Wars did bare a lot of similarities with Dune.

[@Yarblocosifilitico]

didn't he? Apart from naming that desert in Tatooine the 'Dune sea', you mean? I guess it could be due to coincidence, but seems to me like an obvious tribute, homage, or whatever you wanna call it.

[@SoloRenegade]

Dune was Lawrence Arabia in space. The book was written years after the movie came out. Star Wars was Greek Mythology, Classic Heroes story, Buck Rogers, WW2, Buddhism, and other things.

[@indrickboreale7381]

Star Wars is basically Dune with space samurai wielding laser swords

[@Yarblocosifilitico]

@@SoloRenegade I don't see the Greek mythology part in SW, but I'm curious, care to elaborate?

[@SoloRenegade]

@@Yarblocosifilitico It follows Homer's Iliad and the common tropes and themes. Star Wars has even been called "modern mythology" given how similar it is to Greek mythos and how impactful it has been on society much as the Greek myths were.

[@roko.vilibic]

The part of your analysis where you mentioned the tyrannies replacing tyrannies sounds to me like a frozen and deliberately isolated cycle inside human history that caught the eye of Herbert's pessimistic stance about the society/world and it additionally fueled writer's motivation. With that in mind, it produced very insightful story from which we can extract a lot of indirect clarifications of situations of our own times and also can use the story of Dune to paint our own human history, if we feed our own "Machiavelli's spirit" with the story's conclusions. The perspective of inevitability of that tyrannical cycle seems like a frozen hellish state, akin to description of Dante's Inferno where depiction of a worst - and deepest point of Hell - is frozen (if I'm correct). It strikes me that thât kind of spirit, and outlook on the world and it's potential regressive future is one of the things that bothered Tolkien, since it's locked and therefore in some way shapes your thinking by shifting your focus on the bad, and on - most importantly - material reality only (since it's the foundation of story). Because the substrate of hierarchies here is material in nature, for ex. Spice, gives you abilites that boost you inside the only hierarchy that matters and that hierarchy ends in the material world, with person, and that person has to be a tyrant. Benne Gesserit's doctrine depends on material nature of genetics that will convey their true messiah, which is also material in nature. Maybe I haven't dug up enough on the topic, but it seems that majority, if not all of the Dune's world is operating on a somewhat material level. If we imagine hierarchy as a triangle, Dune would somewhat represent the nature of hierarchies on a material level only, since god is on earth, has powers, sight and is genetically engineered. Contrast it with a story of Jesus who represents a King of the Heavens, born in a notorius city (in contrast to genetic perfection), non material reality that extends into mystical, the pinnacle of a story of a non-material reality that descended to earth to show us how to live. It's like that's the inverse triangle (in relation to previously mentioned one), because of the act of humbling and servitude, and if that reality, that kind of spirit wasn't present through history in some form, tyrannical cycle would eat itself out into chaos, and we would cease to exist. As a Christian, I would argue that with materialistic presumptions that Herbert had, he was actually very optimistic with 10,000 yrs into the future projection. I don't usually comment on anything (but watching this channel made me because there is so much food for thought in the comments, and it provoked some in myself) so take this with a grain of salt, please 😅

[@Nobody32990]

18:25 - I must disagree to some extent with "Plebs being a backbone of modern military". They are backbone of ANY military. What makes a difference is how well and extensively they are trained and how they are equipped. If you look at it modern military has more in common with Roman legions for example, then you think. This is why throughout history, regardless of society, one of the most assured path to noblehood for none noble was through army record. If we go with SW analogy in good (aka expanded) univeres killing a jedi could be downright banal simple if well prepared, HK 47 had full lecture in KOTOR2 on the matter. Mandalorians also were not cast based, they recruted anyone who had willingness to fight. It's not matter of plebs themselves but how well you can train them (or bread and brainwash them in Dune's case). The modern rule also relies to the extent on loyalty of professional military class, why do you think coups happen? As much things change they stay the same, the main change being ease of creating professional warrior.

[@gonkdroid8279]

Now you make me want a Pilgrim's Pass video on KOTOR2. Such a brilliant narrative

[@LahyriAurbach]

There are some points that I'd question about your analysis 1- From my perspective, it seems that military is going more on a robotic way than a metahuman(point in case the militarized version of that robot dog from Boston Dynamics and drone strikes being more frequent and relevant in warfare). Also, we are seeing economic warfare, information warfare (4th and 5th generation warfare, respectively) and (tinfoil hat?) biological warfare. So I don't know if those kind of technologies would lead to a semi-feudal system. 2- In the religious point of view, I honestly describe the progressive view of the world as a new non-theistic religion, which already has it's own dogmas and stuff. The point of all of this: I don't know. But honestly, I'd rather live in the laser sword world

[@Nobody32990]

Remember, Dune's world also went through robotic age until A.I. flipped out and Botelarian Jihad was necessity, not an option. We already saw cracks on "robo future" surface several decades in to the past form people like Ted Kaczinsky whos idea become more and more wide spread thanks to the internet. There is no guarantee robotic age will last forever (and given how advent of high robotic, V.A. and even advanced pseudo A.I. would disrupt human lives on every social class such age would be rather short lived).

[@LordBackuro]

Because those 4th and 5th generation wars are gonna push us to a point were it escaltes like in dune where information warfare essentially ended through the Butlerian Jihad were they get rid of self thinking computers that aren’t humans because they are a hazard for everyone So when they conclude A.I is a danger they conclude all of digital tech is hazard because through digital you get a A.I And because the extreme religious humanism pushes for more pushing humans to a point where computers are not needed

[@loganw1232]

I definitely agree with your second point, liberalism or progressivism is it’s own secular religion.

[@gokbay3057]

I can see how robots could lead to a feudalism-like system. If it were to come with AI it could lead to a Machine aristocracy warrior class ruling over humans. (Without AI people who create and/or program robots could perhaps lead to something like feudalism but that is much less likely)

[@muhammadedwards8425]

The non-theist secular religion is also a minor religion at best reaching second to Islam. Hopefully, Christianity can step up to knock it to third. Yes, it has rapidly grown but the backfire of which will be seen soon enough as traditional structures feel threatened and switch from dumb conservativism to a more publicly aggressive approach

[@martian_turtle4070]

I'm so glad I found your channel. I watched your Arcane vs Korra, Spiderman No Way Home, this video. I find your analysis gripping and rather enlightening. Im always happy to find something or someone who can expand the ways I see the world. How technology evolves society, how reform leads ro better futures than revolution. High concept ideas, and you present them in an engaging and exciting way. Definitely earned my subscription. I'm gonna reccomend your videos to all my friends who are interested in analyzing the world around us

[@TheRealAbraxas]

The way Star Wars’ ideas are arranged is something that has always done it for me. I can’t really say the same about Dune even though you could say its themes and ideas are more fleshed out. Star Wars blends mysticism and sci-fi-isms in a really satisfying way that I can’t really put my finger on why it is so satisfying.

[@ShamanMcLamie]

It amazes me how people think just because something is made for children, or is simpler it is somehow less valid and enjoyable. Many Star Wars fans get extremely offended when you remind them that Star Wars was made for children and the creator of Star Wars even said that himself. With that said there is a ridiculous amount of complexity beneath the surface of Star Wars. The more I learn about Star Wars the more astounding it seems. You could write libraries of books about the Star Wars movies. I've written countless essays worth of comments about Star Wars. Which is why I think it is a shame George Lucas never made the Sequel Trilogy. It is like an exceptionally well crafted Sword. The overall design and utility of this tool is quite simple, but a ton of thought, skill, and craft went into making it. I think it is no wonder Star Wars became the cultural behemoth that it was.

[@killroy3367]

Yes! Do starship troopers!

[@deussacracommunioest2108]

This one is gonna be the best, cause he kinda has a degree on it

[@MatsubaAgeha]

You should NOVELIZE your STAR WARS dream trilogy!

[@CynicalWarlock]

Yes, Lucas saw the Jedi as unambiguously good, but he also acknowledged that their rigid tenets blinded them to the Dark Side, for too long. That was what the Prequels were all about. A more obvious example would be Luke Skywalker himself, as the Jedi were celibate, out of tradition (possibly also as a way to keep particular Force-sensitive genes from developing, across multiple generations and becoming too powerful), yet, as Lucas stated, Star Wars is about family, and Luke perfectly symbolizes the triumph of familial love, over both the rigidity of the Jedi and the selfish hedonism of the Sith. P.S. I love your work. Shoulda probably lead with that.

[@celtofcanaanesurix2245]

Your point about the rifle being the bringer of republican democracy and the talk of history in cycles reminds me of the bronze age collapse. In the bronze age collapse, iron was just beginning to be used as weaponry, and this was essentially the ancient equivalent of the invention of the gun. This is because bronze was a complex thing to make. You needed copper which was common, but you also needed tin which was extremely rare, and usually needed to be traded for from Iran or Cornwall, and not many places in between, so Egypt, Babylon, and Hattusa basically had state controlled supply of tin and thus weapons and armor, based on a complex international set of trade networks. The invention of iron weapons destroyed this complex trade network monopoly, and created a new world were now lots of people (though still not everybody) could have a sword. The Assyrians took advantage of this and used it to concentrate their citizenry into a huge army always conquering outwards, while the Hittites who the Assyrians got it from simply shattered into little rival states and never reunified to the same extant.

[@Shaso-xv3tw]

The most realistic future Republic is absolutely the Terran Federation from Starship Troopers as a novel. In order to vote you must serve with several options. The most obvious is as a lifelong citizen soldier, trained to make use of advanced battle suits. Another is to join the space navy, a difference without a distinction. You also can get that vote by joining what is basically a peace corps, and also through other specialist services to the state. Basically a SciFi Roman republic, where citizens are made on the front lines and the best way to achieve political power is to lead men in battle successfully or to be a valued provider of rare and specialized talent to the republic. At least unless we continue to be able to have personal weapons that are easy to use and potent against the current form of protection.

[@S1leNtRIP]

Love the video! Excited for the Starship Troopers one!

[@Nutellafuerst]

Meanwhile 40k: "REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" And I love it

[@justawanderingranger2234]

You teach us history better than any history teacher, keep making awesome videos

[@SoloRenegade]

Dune was Lawrence Arabia in space. The book was written years after the movie came out.

[@alucard197]

Warhammer 40000 is star wars for adult. Dune is the end of the teenager years.

[@archmageofmetal8883]

"Desert planets with space cocaine" 😂😂😂. That's fantastic

[@baltulielkungsgunarsmiezis9714]

King of the gods being Sky Father and queen of the gods being Earth Mother, is very much in europian nature and that of many other peoples as well.

[@baltulielkungsgunarsmiezis9714]

Imperātor is not just a general its fieldmarshal, a brigadier general would be a legatus.

[@zakbrown9256]

This is amazing, I’m so glad I found your channel, I’ve binged your stuff!

[@czwartek565]

I see a one possibility of democracy. The economic fall. The technology is usually not cheap. The Bronz Age - the age of Charriots collapse because there are too expensive. Barbarians probably don't try to fight with army. They destory a villages, cities and go away. If you can't have your srong army everywhere in the same time, you loose. So in Warhammer, space Marrines are so important, but without Imperial Guard, they can't protect the Imperium

[@comentedonakeyboard]

Swiss comoners fought Knights quite successfully, before gunpowder.

[@sapereaudediogenes7282]

Dutch ones too, they were also Republics. I also think that Feudalism was cause do to defensiv taktiks like Castels and Forts. A king simply was not able to take certain Castels, defendet by Lords in his realm. No mater how many "Super Human"knights he had. Yeah i disagree with quit alot here , but no Time to answer.

[@mandalora5325]

I’ve gotta say, I love the positivity and kindness you bring all throughout your channel - both towards people in general, as well as the works you’re dissecting. Thank you for that, I think youtube these days is sorely lacking in that regard. And with the wealths of intellectual information you’re presenting, your positive outlook makes me interested in delving into all these subjects myself that much more. Cheers 😁

[@barelyprotestant5365]

Excellent analysis! I'm really loving your channel so far.

[@SageGunsmith]

I grew up being a fan of Star Wars (I'm 25, so before disney star wars 0/10). Ever snce my beloved Star Wars was bastardized, I have fallen inlove with Dune, probably even more than I ever loved Star Wars, but for sifferent reasons. I never thought of Star Wars being a deep story, but a good solid, albeit kind of shallow, but Dune isn't a lake, it's an ocean.

[@Harvest133]

Actually, in star wars, the most powerful military WAS a pleb army. Stormtroopers. And again, artillery still exists in star wars. tanks still exist. industrialization still exists. Jedi are not invulnerable. Concentrated blaster fire and mass artillery bombardment in a grid square will kill them just as a dead etc. etc. So in such a setting, it will not be warrior-elites that win. It will be factions that can mobilize the most material and men to the battlefield and effectively use them in combined arms tactics with overwhelming force. Hence the Empire. The Empire has legions uncountable of trained enough and disciplined enough Imperial army forces, and a core of not quite at numerous Stormtroopers to act as elite shock forces. Not to mention the innumerable ships of the imperial navy. Even the victory of the Rebel Alliance didn't destroy this force, it merely changed who commanded it it and in the end the Imperial model outlived the New Republic.

[@slyphwing]

I think one of the biggest (most simplistic) distinctions between the two is the medium in which the stories were originally created. Book vs. Film, each having their own pros and cons. SW is highly visual (making it more accessible to the masses) Dune, as a series of novels is naturally more heady and philosophical…

[@theodoremccarthy4438]

Star Wars is not an American Iliad. It’s a postmodern Anglo-Iliad. An authentic American Iliad would be something like Davy Crockett: King of the Wild Frontier or the story of the Lewis and Clark expedition. Also, intellectualism shouldn’t be confused with maturity. If anything Star Wars is Dune for adults because it’s willing to tackle spirituality without cynicism.

[@ophanimangel3143]

Lucas stated that Star Wars was made for kids, though.

[@theodoremccarthy4438]

@@ophanimangel3143 which is not to say it has nothing to offer adults. Especially since many adults are parents.

[@bermudez8789]

I absolutely love the in depth analysis. Really good video, thanks

[@nathanielmarquardt]

going off of the civilian army in medieval times, from what I've read, it was required that every able-bodied man learn the long bow. so even though they may not have been well trained in hand-to-hand combat, they were skilled in their equivalent of the gun. There were also pull-arm weapons that were the standard weapon for foot soldiers which required minimal training. at last from what I have been told. please correct me if I am wrong.

[@calebblack1420]

What I love about Dune is the sands of Arrakis literally start to call to you if you visualized what was happening in the novel deeply. And you start to literally long for that alien world. You want to be there. A lot like Pandora in Avatar.

[@narcispana9361]

Your ramblings are why we're here! Great and insightful content! Cheers!

[@Yarblocosifilitico]

26:31 read the bookS*. The first one works as a stand alone story, but to me the saga reaches its peak with God Emperor. It's all wheels within wheels, as Herbert puts it. The more you go around, the more you understand, and the more you feel you're missing (thus making you think about it).

[@Yarblocosifilitico]

11:33 WHAT?!?! Leto II is the hero. That's one thing I love about Dune: the hero is an dictator that ruled the galaxy with an iron grip. And yet, he's the hero of the story. Him and Idaho, I guess. But yeah, I totally get the 'there's no hero in Dune' idea, in the sense of no traditional hero.

[@cy-one]

Considering it is unclear as to which extend his plan succeeded, I wouldn't call Leto II a hero.

[@Yarblocosifilitico]

@@cy-one Well, fair enough, but still, intentions gotta count, right? We do know he succeeded in preserving humanity for a while, at least, and provoking the Scattering and other stuff, so I'd say he at least contributed quite a bit. That's taking into consideration that Dune is a pretty pesimistic take on humanity, overall.

[@freindlich8112]

I think you are wrong in your portrayal of individual skill as a soldier. In the past 4 man with big clubs had a pretty good chance of overpowering and killing a knigth. However if you take 4 civilians with guns and pin them vs a fighter jet....

[@Yarblocosifilitico]

"Frank Herbet is trying to be an impartial observer of reality, and explain how human society works... except the God Emperor is a giant worm." lmao. Sentences like that is why I'm subscribed haha, so true yet so funny when put like that.

[@SoloRenegade]

Dune was Lawrence Arabia in space. The book was written years after the movie came out.

[@Yarblocosifilitico]

@@SoloRenegade I fail to see what that has to do with my comment, but ok. It's also much more than that tho.

[@SoloRenegade]

@@Yarblocosifilitico I think I posted on the wrong comment. my mistake.

[@smallpiper2]

I hadn't noticed the connection between eliete soldiers creating the hierarchy in Star wars, Dune, and WH40k. I did read Starship Troopers and the MI are basically Iron Men so that does make sense there.

[@smokedbeefandcheese4144]

Yeah a lot of military sci-fi seems to have advanced soldiers and stuff I always thought that Warhammer got the idea from Harry Harrison‘s death world Harry Harrison always loved having rocket guns in his book too similar to the Bolter

[@MangakaDay]

is it just me or is comparing dune to star wars like comparing Game of Thrones to Lord of the Rings?

[@ultron374]

I agree, that's exacly the comparison. Dune is on the level with LOTR

[@djolds1]

Very insightful. Hunting up those additional Dune and Star Wars videos now.

[@Leitis_Fella]

He turned himself into a sandworm Funniest shit I've ever read

[@pavelslama5543]

22:40 That would be true, if that small warrior group could realistically defend the whole state, which it absolutely cannot. Those "warrior groups" are small because states are not fighting in all-out war anymore, unless you count Russia and Ukraine, which again, reintroduced conscription, because those "small warrior groups" are still insufficient when it comes to all out wars.

[@PilgrimsPass]

That's a good point, though conscription appears to be failing and Ukraine's volunteer forces seem to be the real star of the show. Some levy of conscripts will probably always be used but the professional warrior is usually how the state projects power more effectively.

[@pavelslama5543]

@@PilgrimsPass Professional armies may have the edge when it comes to some decisive battles, but those decisive battles are only possible because the rest of the frontline is defended by conscripts.

[@ahsdjasashdahs9940]

@@PilgrimsPass As long as you have enough people to teach how to shoot a rifle, use artillery and drones and drive tanks , and make enough techologically sophisticated equipment for these people to use , the difference of professional soldiers and conscripts or volunteers aren't a thing. Industrial capabilities are how nations project power like Germans in WW2 had better tactics and sometimes equipment than the Allies but once Americans joined the war they basically outproduced the Axis until the experience and professionalism did not constitute an advantage through attrition. The new warrior class are the scientists and engineers that make better and more tools for commoners to use.

[@1lobster]

Bro, don’t worry! I love these long videos!

[@hrafni]

UGHHHHHH I love your videos so much, makes my head spin with inspiration and hope lol Please keep it up, this is so needed 💙

[@levkol8004]

Great video and channel!

[@ashlyn37]

Huh, very interesting video! I have not read Dune, and prior to watching the movie just about all I knew about it was people thought Star Wars was semi-derived from the material of Dune. When I did watch the movie, I could see where people thought they were similar, but I thought the comparisons were rather superficial, as the meaning behind these similar aspects felt totally different in each work. Bear in mind that my opinion of Dune is based solely on my impression of the movie, but the religion and power of that world felt more an attribute of the societies and not necessarily pointing towards any deeper metaphysical truth of the world. Contrast that with Star Wars, in which the Force is very much a reality of that world and from which an ultimate meaning is implied (even if it's as simplistic as Evil is seductive and powerful, but ultimately Good triumphs over Evil). Personally, I think I will almost always find the latter more attractive and meaningful, and honestly, as a fellow Catholic, I would argue it's maybe even more truthfully reflective of the human condition, as well. However, I may be way off in my understanding of the world of Dune, so don't come at me too hard if you think I'm wrong. I also wanted to touch on your discussion of how equality is explored within the world of Dune. I definitely think that the idea that secular egalitarianism is a smokescreen and unsustainable is pretty accurate. Here in America, as our culture becomes more secularized, the idea of equality is being rejected in favor of equity, whose goal is sameness, which I think is maybe a more accurate word to describe what Frank Herbert is seeking to challenge. Our founding fathers' understanding of equality is more akin to how the Church understands it, which is that all human beings are equal in value and dignity, and by nature of being human we have inherent natural rights. They recognized that there will always be differences in our individual abilities, but sought to establish a form of government that existed to uphold the inherent rights and dignity of its citizens regardless of those differences, not to eliminate them. Equity, which is an idea that is becoming increasingly popular here, does seek to eliminate those differences, and its advocates don't believe we are truly equal until our achievements and abilities are the same... which of course they never will be. However, I also think that the fact that the Christian understanding of equality is being replaced by a newer, more alluring ideology (particularly when it was secularized) is a great example of the phenomenon Herbert was exploring.

[@KopperNeoman]

That, however, is not what they Declared. It is a habit of modern Americans to retroactively strip Founding Father status from those Fathers whose ideologies at best don't resonate with their mythologised status, and at worst were what the Loyalists revolted against, and I honestly believe it is to the American people's detriment.

[@janfungusamon4926]

One thing you're missing is that not all technologies are unequal. Technologies that help someone's emotional wellbeing, logical reasoning, and/or simply give them more knowledge will give them the opportunity to figure out how stupid our current (since the agricultural revolution) social systems are, as well as figure out how to make new and better ones. Since gaining knowledge gives someone power over others this is also an opportunity to fuel and reinforce a person's thirst for yet more power since if sheer ability is your primary goal you'll never actually reach a goal and it'll just continue until you consciously stop it. this pattern continues in every person until they die or decide to change and the same pattern is found in our social systems since we're basically it's cells, what we do/think is directly connected to what it does/thinks. I have some dwindling faith that the internet will do this but I feel we're at a tipping point one way or the other since we'll soon be interplanetary. if we go to mars as an ignorant and uncompassionate species we'll definitely continue the cycle for a very long time, until there's another opportunity in a couple thousand years. As far as I can tell memes are going to continue to rapidly develop faster than genes can, which means our suffering depends on whether we use technology for thought out, responsible, reasons to create stable growth with purpose and consequences in mind or for self focused short term reasons to gain more power as individuals.

[@janfungusamon4926]

im stoned so ignore this if it sounds like a schizopost

[@abadyr_]

I'd like to point out than books are quite affordable. And Dune has had a huge impact on many other stories. mostly books yes, especially since until the 80s movies and TV weren't that popular and accessible. But it influenced many stories in these medium as well, such as Star Wars.

[@vitioncristian8425]

If we could look at the nuclear scientists as warriors that weild the atomic weapon, could that mean the future is gonna be a scientific monarchy, for there will be no longer a big need for soldiers to inflict violence? Until something else takes their place too. I don't really read comics but aren't most villains in marvel or DC scientific madmen? Very interesting the tie between who can inflict violence and the political system.

[@seanohalloran384]

Star Wars movies might actually exist in the Dune universe. What happened to media such as film, music, etc. in Dune? Great video!

[@k3556io]

Good points in the video. But, the OG Star Wars trilogy is objectively one of the best trilogies of all time, Dune will have to do more if they want a chance at being the better franchise.

[@orionstark]

I am reminded of the bronze age collapse and how some historians speculate that it was the proliferation of iron technology which allowed for the mass arming of thousands of warriors with edged weapons and armor that brought an end to the power of the elite chariot armies of the bronze age civilizations. I can imagine a future where mecha pilots rule the battlefield as the new chivalric warrior elite.

[@alex434343]

Great Stuff. This made me think of one of the plot holes in 40k, of how the Astartes did not become the ruling class of the Imperium after the Horus Heresy. Yeah all the remaining loyalist Primarchs said "it was the will of the Emperor that we not rule humanity" but it still feels a bit of a stretch that these superhuman warrior elites didn't retain their political power after the Emperor got ganked, regardless of what the Emperor stated to have wanted. Makes me want someone to write an AU where the remaining loyalists Primarchs and their Space Marines took the reigns of the Imperium after the Heresy.

[@baltulielkungsgunarsmiezis9714]

One night could not kill scores of peasents by himself, a regiment of knight could decimate an entire peasent army. One versus many the night would just be held down his armor penetrated trough the weak points, its the charge of a regiment of mounted knights that a peasent army would have a very hard time stopping.

[@Nobody32990]

Considering how many peasant rebellions there were across Europe alone (some VERY effective I might add) you are overestimating ability to "riot control" of armoured cavalry. Heavy infantry on the other hand, this is where you might see results.

[@baltulielkungsgunarsmiezis9714]

@@Nobody32990 Knight are hevy footmen if you take away their horses.

[@cy-one]

@@baltulielkungsgunarsmiezis9714 If you take away a knight's horse, he will crash onto the ground, very likely buried or severely immobilized by half the horse laying ontop of him. Or severely injured by having been violently pulled off said horse, considering the average weight of armor he was wearing.

[@baltulielkungsgunarsmiezis9714]

@@cy-one Yes the horse dying is a danger thats why they too where armored. Knightly armor weighs as much as modern soldiers equipment but is evenly distributed.

[@cy-one]

@@baltulielkungsgunarsmiezis9714 The even distribution in this case is a disadvantage, not an advantage.

[@montenegroafro4454]

0:12 I never had the thought that the spice in Dune would be called space cocaine! 😂

[@josueamericanistarv]

I think Filoni and Favreau are expanding Star Wars story in a very interesting way. They know that at its core it is a mythological story that aims to instill hope, in that sense Lucas tried to follow what Tolkien did with The Lord of the Rings. The sequels totally destroyed that by turning the original archetypes into meaningless symbols of traditions that had to be killed in order to make room for the real symbols. Right now, Filoni and Favreau are challenging Lucas ideas and values through the deconstruction the sequels tried to make, and the result is being really interesting. It is a work in progress but I'm eager to see what the endgame is here. And I would love to hear your take on it.

[@jaybristowe2346]

Absolutely great video!

[@dmccaffreydm]

Fantastic video, very sharp analysis.

[@RiddlesOfSteel]

I like to imagine the vast outer rim acting more in line with Dune's feudalism with a more Imperial Star Wars-esque style the closer you get to the galactic core

[@Yarblocosifilitico]

"more technology, more religion" is not a contradiction because technology is always limited to practicality, while we always need some sense of an absolute truth working behind the scenes. Technology reveals what Socrates said long ago: "I only know that I know nothing". And that's pretty scary (at least at first).

[@cy-one]

Knowing nothing only becomes scary when one you thinks one has the answers despite that. Which most religions do in one way or another.

[@Yarblocosifilitico]

@@cy-one Nope, that's dogamtism, and it's a different problem, shared by religion and science. What I was saying is that science can't reveal the meaning of existence, because if there is one, it's not on the surface, material level that science studies (for the most part). But the need for existencial answers persists, so religion becomes needed again. Btw, there's a great recent video from 'Pilgrims Pass' about religion in sci-fi. Highly recommend it.

[@cy-one]

@@Yarblocosifilitico "The meaning of existence" is a philosophical question. Of _course_ it can't be answered scientifically. That would be like expecting my frying pan to be able to be formatted in FAT32 so I can save my ebooks on it. What I meant can be simply understood by this example (which, btw, is _not_ how science works): Why, mechanically speaking as opposed to philosophically speaking, is there something rather than nothing? Currently, the simplified scientific position is: No idea, we only have rough knowledge about what happened after the Planck time. The religious position on the other hand, without any factual basis, is usually some kind of creation myth. Science doesn't say "we can't explain how X happened, but here is how X happened." Religions do that all the time ("God's personality is incomprehensible to humans, but [this] is a list of character traits we know about God.")

[@Yarblocosifilitico]

@@cy-one I mean, the Big Bang and all the classic theories have had plenty of people who disagree, and they're usually mocked. The Ether, for example (despite most of its proponants being great scientist that accomplished a lot, particularly in the field of electricity and magnetism...). Or there's the cases of Nobel prizes being ridiculed instantly after something they publish (like it happended to Luc Montaigner), just because it doesn't fit the current paradigme. Yes, in theory Science is dogma-proof, but in praxis it very much isn't. Just think twice about how the peer review system works, and the amount of accumulated error it can generate. Anyway, you like science more than religion, that's perfectly fine, as long as you don't pretend science is intrinsically better than religion, because in theory it might be, but we're talking about the real world here. Btw, science often denies any sort of god or spirituality, but its absence is as unprovable as its existance. That's the most common scientific dogma, I'd say. Which relies in the false premise that science can explain everything, therefore whatever science can not find or prove, doesn't exist (of course they don't apply that to dark matter or the base particle, or about how photons can go from particle to wave as they please, etc.). Oh, also, most religious people have no interest in imposing it on you. They'd welcome you if you're interested, but won't push it. I'd say that happens way more often the other way around. For most, religion is an individual or family thing, not a crusade they need to convince everyone about. The fact that old books are dogmatic doesn't necessarily mean everyone that values said books is dogmatic too. I think people of different religion are more understanding of each other than atheist are of religious people (at least that's my experience).

[@cy-one]

@@Yarblocosifilitico The examples you brought up however only underline what I meant. Take the Big Bang theory as an example. The scientific position is _not_ that "this is how it has happened", but rather a "according to the evidence we have so far, this is currently our best take." Which is precisely the point I was trying to make.

[@lucastark1784]

Oh boy, I can't wait for the genetically enhanced cyborg warrior caste to take over. Surely this will be an improvement. Nothing bad will happen at all. Everything will be splendid.

[@mockcosine4479]

Underrated channel.

[@jimluebke3869]

"Of course the rich members of the society could always get out of the draft" You should look into how many senators of the Roman republic died on the battlefield, taking their chances with the common soldiers. The other Roman class distinction (between plebs and particians) was the class of non-patricians who could afford horses, and so were expected to serve as cavalry.

[@PilgrimsPass]

those were a better class of elite yes.

[@jakubrogacz6829]

Well I heard that star wars is in fact a Dune for wider audience. And in fact it is. After all the main idea of fear killing soul of a person is big in both.

[@barbarabaker1457]

4:12 Me, flashing back to the East Coast/West Coast gangster rap wars... At least none of the authors were shot. 17:28 my favorite part, I love the rifle stuff too. And it just kept getting more engaging. Also Bad KZbin, I got no notifications for your recent vids. All video ideas mentioned however yes please

[@reynoldsVincent]

Outstanding video. I did read Dune in the 80s but I needed this to buy into space feudalism. I would like to see more on current developments. I feel Asimov did address an awkward human space colonization period, in which techno-social conflict could only cease with his version of a slow death for Earth and AI, and some sort of secret archive against constant wars and dark ages. His robot Giskard observed that Earth could never catch up with the technological advances and social evolution of the colonies, because, I guess Asimov thought Earth was a stable global society that didn't change climate, for example. But what if our real Earth is about to become unstable and hard to live on? Would colonies be more socially stable in such a case? Are we even going to make any mark in space? More on the UN please, I feel you hit the nail on the head with rule by the nuclear powers, that it comes down to that and much of the idealism is yet superficial and unsupported. More Herbert, please. Herbert's early novels I think had more ecology and social content than now recognized, such as The Green Brain.

[@tristan_840]

I hope you get to make a video/videos about your dream version of Star Wars prequels though.

[@connorlake1439]

saying dune is like star wars for adults is like saying a song of ice and fire is lord of the rings for adults. Just because they are the same genre does not make them more or less mature than one another. if you actually read the dune books the differences become so dramatic its laughable. star wars and dune are completly different, awesome, and innovative pieces of sci fi.

[@jwbennett4009]

Great vid, keep it up brother.

[@cimerian85]

Meu camarada. Esse vídeo ajudou muito a descompactar as minhas ideias sobre o cenário de RPG que estou montando para a minha campanha. Muito obrigado!

[@jobsmine]

Couldn’t agree more. Even as I a kid I never was interested in star wars as i found it to be childish and cringeworthy. Dune however currently made me interested in the set up and story with the current film.

[@ultron374]

I agree, as a kid i liked Star Wars ( kind of cartoon for kids) because it was entertaining but i like more Dune universe as an adult

[@ophanimangel3143]

And you’re right since Lucas did say Star Wars was always made for children.

[@maggoli67]

Shai, Dorsai! Yup...best series arguing for professionalism in the military. Also Drake's Slammers.

[@bola5671]

I'm halfway through the review and I can't help nut notice the video is missing the Disney star wars thrill-orgy

[@leesnotbritish5386]

I’ve thought a lot about the theory that the nature of combat shapes the government, and I think it’s worth considering how it ous sometimes the opposite. Maybe knights weren’t necessarily better than legions, but just the most effective way of two ruling classes fighting each other without arming too many peasants for example

[@PilgrimsPass]

That's true too. Knights could have kept on existing in modern times and they kind of did as the Ace pilots in WWI. they were basically knights. But social forces took development to another direction. So i'd say its a a give and take. I'd say

[@leesnotbritish5386]

@@PilgrimsPass You make a good point perhaps, but both parties in a conflict dont have to adopt the same social values, If one party in a conflict adopts a more efficient fighting style (citizen army over warrior caste) the other side has to compete against that, like it or not. Either by adopting the same means of warfare or by being defeated by others who do the new meathod spreads along with the social notions that support it. For exz look at the samurai that maintained their combat style against the developing modern armies and were defeated as a result. Another note is that fighter pilots need a lot of training but not a lifetime of training, the limit on the amount of fighters you can fly is the availability of the aircraft themselves, when thats the case look at the social system that supports the production of fighters (do you need to appease many unskilled workers, a few specialist, or a single tech priest?) same applies to the MI suits in Starship troopers. (if you cant tell i've thought a lot about this, developing an amateur theory/model)

[@shiishani3302]

Just discovered ur channel. Very interesting video, I've sunscribed & will be watching more. Please do something about the mice quality. It was hard to understand, what u were saying at some momenents.

[@steveripethefustercluck.]

It may of been because I was in a outdoor cinema but I had a very hard time understanding what the hell was going on. With more and more videos explaining what happened to me I cant wait for the second one.

[@cantmossadtheassad9952]

The Galactic Republic(before Palpatine turned it into the Galactic Empire) appears to me as something resembling a combination of the early United States, early United Nations, and the Holy Roman Empire