Why Forgiveness Doesn't Work

Have you ever forgiven someone and then later when someone brings up their name you get this awkward feeling that you haven't forgiven them? So you forgive them again, and again? It's because there are two types of forgiveness: The decision to not return hurt for hurt; and Reconciliation. Reconciliation requires two people participating in a process of honest expression of feelings, repentance and a mutual understanding of pain.

[@kathleenwharton2139]

You cannot reconcile to a narcissist..they refuse to see the truth. My forgiveness is the same as Jesus..”Father..Forgive them..For they know Not what they do.” 😊❤

[@secretagent4610]

No, they know what they do. It's exactly why they do it. They get a kick out of hurting others. The only way they'll change is to get a taste of their own medicine.

[@kathleenwharton2139]

@@secretagent4610 I will let God Do it! I know narcissists..you retaliate you are in for a battle! I prefer living in Peace.

[@kathleenwharton2139]

@@secretagent4610 I was married to a Narc. I didn’t murder him..that is forgiveness!

[@DrMarkBaker]

I like your take on forgiveness.

[@Rebander1549]

​@@secretagent4610even if they get a taste of their own medicine they don't change. Then you walk away, no reconciliation for this person and you accept their choice and move away from them.

[@guitarandotherthings6090]

Forgiveness doesnt mean being required to be “buddy buddy” again. If you forgive a snake for biting you it doesnt mean sticking out your hand again for a second bite. You can learn not to trust someone who isn’t trustworthy. You hold no ill will against them, but will no longer participate in their company to avoid further harm.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Absolutely correct. I’m glad you understand. Thanks for sharing.

[@guitarandotherthings6090]

@@DrMarkBaker thanks, i came to understand because i was part of a huge corrupt pentecostal church that said unless i become friends with my abusive father (who nearly stabbed me to death, i barely survived) that I would be in sin because i hadnt truly forgave him since were not friends. And i would go to hell if we dont reconcile. They thought if you are a victim of someone that afterwards youre required to be their friend if you truly forgive. I asked them “what about a rape victim?” And they even said she must now be friends with her attacker to truly forgive. Even if he were a stranger before they must now be friends. Such a gross misunderstanding of scripture. I bet they wouldnt let someone rob their building repeatedly and come back repeatedly lol. Glad to be out of Church Of God denomination, though not all of them are that crazy.

[@empress_enchantress]

​@@guitarandotherthings6090Thank you for protecting YOU. Best wishes and take care ❤

[@guitarandotherthings6090]

@@jeff_forsythe Thats good, but dont let them know wherever you move to or keep company with them. Be careful what you disclose on social media and set all your profiles to private and be weary of a common friend who could tell.

[@panzer00]

I think you make a poor analogy for the snake does not bite out of malice; the snake bites out of self-defense or survival. The snake bites me because I have broken its trust.

[@redwoods7370]

Victims require justice before they can forgive. This is very important. Being pressured to forgive by religion or therapists before they are ready, invalidates and revictimizes.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Being pressured to forgive is not forgiveness. It is excusing, bad behavior, and accommodating to people pressuring you. Forgiveness is something you do for yourself not for anyone else.

[@timyoung8935]

Forgiveness cannot be sanctioned- It is spiritual. Justice you imply seems official and public. It`s an action first between you and God- Secondary action depends on that first action or it is false

[@ebenoit72]

@@DrMarkBaker”forgiveness is something you do for yourself” is pop-psychology and is not biblical. People confuses letting go with forgiveness but they are not the same. Forgiveness requires repentance from the offender while letting does not. Forgiveness (assuming full repentance from the offender) gives way to reconciliation. Letting go of an offense as a result of an unrepentant offender frees you from creating bitter roots but there cannot be reconciliation. This is why Jesus said to treat the unrepentant as a non-Christian because that person is not obligated to live by God’s standards which then frees you from expecting Godly repentance.

[@13RafaEl777]

​@@ebenoit72I think Dr and you speak about different "repentance" and "forgiveness". When you look at words of Jesus when He said forgive so Father will forgive you, then Dr is right. You forgive for yourself, if you dont you are condemned forever so it is literally matter of you being alive or being in hell. It is fully for you and only for you. But as you say, there are people we should not be friends with, who genuinely soberly and freely choose to be evil. They are even in churches. So we need to listen to God and follow His wisdom. The separation you talk about is written in Numbers 15 (27-31) and Ezekiel 34. Now it is the season of Ez.34 - God separates sheep and goats and reveals preachers who are not His any more.

[@ebenoit72]

@@13RafaEl777 well, that was a lot of mental gymnastics. Let’s keep it simple shall we. If you sin against God and refuse to repent, will He forgive you? Absolutely not. In the same way, God requires the offender to repent before the victim can forgive. That’s why Jesus says “if they listen” or “if he repents”. That’s called a condition before forgiveness can be offered. It’s all there in Matthew 18:15-17. The last command in that passage is not to forgive but to let it go (without reconciliation) because this person is behaving like a non-believer. Another example is in Luke 16:3-4. If he sins against you seven times and seven times he repents, forgive him. Notice Jesus didn’t say forgive him automatically after the third time because that’s what you’re supposed to do anyway. No, He required repentance for each and every offense before the victim can forgive. There’s no way around it. No forgiveness, no repentance. And No, I won’t grow bitter roots nor will I go to hell if I don’t forgive. Where did you get such thinking? Please, post a scripture that confirms such mindset.

[@WardInstruments]

Excellent video. Thank you. I heard somebody say recently that "Getting toxic people out of your life is self-care." It struck me as profound.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Well said!

[@CHDean]

It is absolutely necessary.

[@masterculturedunkerque7918]

Toxic people what are they?

[@CHDean]

@@jeff_forsythe Li Hongzhi is NOT a god.

[@CHDean]

@@jeff_forsythe No sir. He has said EXACTLY that…many times. The literature is clear. “Me thinkest thou protesteth too much.”

[@michaelbodine9240]

Unfortunately there are some hurts that never go away!

[@randysummerhays4168]

That's true but just quit tearing the scab off the wound

[@favouritemusic8959]

Hi Michael Yes l agree. I am broken and heart broken that my only daughter will not ask her to her wedding in Canada. She has emigrated and put estrangement on us too. She fell out over wedding planning. I just survive from day to day. Mary

[@gossip_girl_xoxo2003]

Whew true! So true! 🙏🏽

[@charlysage8642]

Sometimes reconciling is not possible because the other doesn't have the capacity to listen and set aside their story, they listen to find cracks and assert being right. When this is the truth of what is then it is best to release the relationship. Forgiveness is giving up the need to get even. And for your benefit it is best to forgive them; not hold onto anger, resentment, and bitterness, it is what it is done mostly out of not knowing what they are doing. There will be your wounds and scars but healed.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Exactly right

[@10RexTheWolf01]

Doesn't society also play a factor into egging you on to be your worse self, peer pressure and all?

[@10RexTheWolf01]

Doesn't society also play a factor into egging you on to be your worse self, peer pressure and all?

[@MagusKali]

​@@10RexTheWolf01it can, mostly because the "eye for an eye" mentality is so strong. Plus, it is an "accepted" method for establishing boundaries, which isn't always the wisest way to do things.

[@poetsrear]

Buddhist doctrine would declare somehow like "there is no true Evil in this world, only Ignorance." Which makes evil not real=minimal in quality, but on the other hand ignorance becomes it's closest representative=maximal in quantity.

[@MeatSuit-1926]

Unlimited forgiveness is deemed as weakness in their eyes therefore unlimited forgiveness doesn't work you're absolutely right!

[@JeremyHelm]

Yeah, freedom and communication are no good

[@MeatSuit-1926]

@@JeremyHelm freedom from sin and slavery can be a greater good thing/experience if people were just willing to crucify their prides/egos instead of trying to be right everytime it's the same with communication to if those I'm communicating with are genuine and not of pride/ego I'd connect a whole lot more it's a given

[@sirwalksoftly]

The way to go about it is exactly as he said, don't even tell them about it. Practice forgiveness within yourself for yourself. You will show up differently and you need to state boundaries.

[@MeatSuit-1926]

@@sirwalksoftly it's a good method sure I'm always setting boundaries only to repeatedly have them transgressed upon by people I'm getting to old to be connecting with others every single day I'm actually beginning to enjoy my own company than being around most people these days because atleast I can understand everything and anything about myself great/good or bad you know something is terribly off when you're the only one more or less that is this way while the whole world live within their circus acts for a life where excessive happiness and joy are an everyday thing unlike them I don't have to repeatedly sin nor do dumbass childish things to get that excessive happiness/joy I can earn it naturally granted I have my battles/struggles like the vast majority of everybody else it's how I choose to use my battles/struggles that can either build me or destroy me.

[@sirwalksoftly]

@@MeatSuit-1926 Hey I can understand that regarding the alone time. However, we need to connect with others. If you need to repeatedly set boundaries for the same person or people then I would say at face value you're not setting them. If boundaries are crossed, then "I know where we stand". Find one hobby and see how you feel from doing it consistently.

[@tyracalloway8993]

😮...not retaliating is a form of forgiveness....

[@kathleenwharton2139]

I was married to one! Refraining from murder is Forgiveness!

[@Colt8722]

@@kathleenwharton2139that’s the truth!

[@Justagirlnamedshawn]

TRUTH!! that's me too!!!​@@kathleenwharton2139

[@MeatSuit-1926]

Losing the need for Anger yes GOD'S WRATH not so much it's good to lose the need for worldly anger due to the fact it can be murderous if not controlled GODS WRATH on the other hand was a controlled/disciplinary anger JESUS CHRIST was known to get WRATHFUL toward those that abused holy grounds by tax collecting the poor. John 2:15-17 KJV John 2:15 “And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;” This isn't the entire passage you're welcome to look into that and excuse the capitalising of important words it's my way in reaching people in general.

[@jamesroales2684]

I can forgive, but I don't want that person around me any more!

[@josephang9927]

It depend show you define forgiveness. I define it as lack of resentment, but you may still have negative feelings or distrust for the person and that is OK as long as it does not take over you.

[@josephang9927]

@@jeff_forsythe true

[@carolineramage7480]

​@@jeff_forsythewhat's wrong with "acting like a child" at a sports arena? Can't we have a couple of hours off from being an adult. What harm is it doing?

[@FriendofDorothy]

The only way I was able to forgive my verbally and emotionally abusive mother and non-present, non-affectionate father was to seriously acknowledge their own parental role models. In my father's case his father (whom I met once as a kid and had a very negative reaction to; he pretty much looked like a street bum) was an alcoholic and wife beater. In my mother's case her mother was a very neurotic, joyless woman who constantly badgered and verbally sparred with her second husband, always created drama, and frequently cried about it at family gatherings as if she was always a victim. Add to that both of my parents' direct involvement in WW2 (both vets) and the post-war trauma effects (my dad was a medic in the war but he hid his PTSD pretty well) and the incessant chain-smoking and I reached the conclusion "My parents were really damaged bunnies.... forgive them..." and I did, sincerely, in both meditation and prayer. The release from the resentment and anger was immediate. I also no longer bash myself for not confronting both of them when I was younger. I had one opportunity in my 30's to confront them both together but I did not for I remembered the Bible saying to "Honor your parents". I also felt it may have killed my dad who had been through an open heart surgery so I bit the bullet and held my tongue and am now glad I did. But I am free of the weight of regret and resentment and I don't dwell on it anymore. I just say, in prayer, "Hey, you two, I love you. I'm doing fine." LOOK AT THEIR ROLE MODELS and you too may be able to forgive your parents. I hope this helps someone.

[@thomcarr7021]

Confronting them would have only added more fuel to a dysfunctional family situation. It's unfortunate when people depend on alcohol to get through the day. It only makes life worse.

[@J-T46]

This certainly helped me. Thank you so much for sharing this heart-changing perspective. ❤️

[@ANSELMGELINGAR]

Thanks this has actually opened my perspective a great deal..... Blessings to you and your family

[@anitam7547]

I hated my father. Many years after he passed on, I pieced together what I knew of his childhood. I saw that he didn't really stand a chance of developing into a reasonable adult and pitied him as a boy. I began to recognise that he had the making of a very good man. I forgave him unconditionally. I also 'asked' his forgiveness for the part I played as a resentful offspring who had decided he was bad, and therefore would reject anything he said or did that was an expression of the reasonable man he wanted to be. I also let go of my resentment about how he treated my mother. That was not mine to solve or heal.

[@zamyrabyrd]

My abusive, foul-mouthed, swindling manipulative, sex and drama crazed narcissist mother had an angel for her mom whom she also abused. No, she doesn't get a free pass. Her own character disorder I believe grew out of poisonous sibling rivalry of which she was the youngest of three selfish brats. Her sisters hated her even more for her being spoiled by her father. She mainly caused destruction and hurt in her almost 90 years, a pathetic waste of a life.

[@lmusima3275]

I could forgive my ex boyfriend for ghosting me, disrespecting me and breaking up with me. But forgiveness doesn’t mean I’d take him back or continue communicating with him

[@DrMarkBaker]

Absolutely right. Forgiveness is for you to be released from resentment. It is not to excuse his bad behavior. Forgive and move on.

[@KtotheG]

I wish ghosting didn't exist, but it comes from the fact that many people don't handle rejection well. When you break up in person, you run the risk of possible violence or destruction to your property. So although I don't like it, I can see why it's a necessity in our culture as it presently exists.

[@Mr.Obongo]

Your ex bf sounds like my ex gf

[@Innuendos06]

No, because then you would be disrespecting yourself

[@DrmCom2003]

Ultimately you have to forgive yourself for allowing them to affect your life.

[@tissah4444]

Exactly

[@kathleenwharton2139]

So True! Forgive yourself! For not knowing what you were doing!

[@ReachingHigher001]

This... Right here.

[@Kay-uk9us]

That's exactly the hardest part. I hate myself more than I hate them.

[@kathleenwharton2139]

@@Kay-uk9us I am 80 and still recovering ❤️‍🩹 from narcs! They completely destroyed my feeling of having any value.

[@Kittyququmber]

Very clear. So easy to say “I’m sorry”. But what follows is what is of importance in true forgiveness.

[@chick3n71]

Sometimes even if you have forgiven someone, they might still come after you and seek to do you harm.

[@lucybecker8]

Yeah and that is called crazy. Crazy is crazy, and you can't fix crazy, so you're smart to protect yourself.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Right

[@politereminder6284]

Boundaries needed.

[@Chris-2-of-3]

That's called narcissism and they see you as their 'supply', like a vampire.

[@mauricioalcala4074]

yes they never stop

[@Xianne027]

I really appreciate this clarification instead of the usual blah, blah, blah that people give in order to score points on what good forgiving 'Christians' they are.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Thanks. Sadly, some people use the word forgiveness to excuse bad behavior in order to make themselves look "good". Forgiveness is not for them, it's for you. And there are some people you should not even try to reconcile with. There are some people who are just bad for you to be around.

[@Xianne027]

@@DrMarkBaker I agree with you 100%! You clarified it from a healthy psychological perspective which hopefully will help some folks to see a better perspective and get beyond their blind religion dogma.

[@Chris-2-of-3]

Forgiveness is really a misunderstood concept among many people, that includes those of religious faith because they ( we ) were not correctly taught what true, applicable forgiveness is. Forgiveness is for the benefit of the forgiver, not the forgiven. There are behaviors that must accompany that forgiveness in order for one to derive any benefit - like going no-contact, which is the best accompanying behavior to forgiveness if it's possible. Another thing that should be understood by all is that God is not keeping score - but that's another topic.

[@alariaesculenta8177]

You don't need to keep in contact with them if you don't feel like it, or just because you've forgiven them. They need to acknowledge the harm/hurt they've done to you. If they don't, just forgive and forget them. Anyways, if they don't acknowledge the pain they caused, your forgiveness will be like pearls thrown to swines. Move on to more edifying relationships. Lesson learned.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Exactly. There are some people you shouldn't even try to reconcile with, those are the ones you forgive and forget.

[@kathleensmith644]

Some people are below contempt and should never be forgiven.

[@thomcarr7021]

@@DrMarkBaker But in your video , in fact, what your video is all about is for forgiveness, you need the other persons acknowledgement of the situation. The whole thing is nonsense.

[@ronjones1414]

​@kathleensmith644 The issue with that approach is that healing is hindered. Coming to grips with all of the hormonal responses of the interaction is significantly assisted through the forgiveness process. Even if you never relay the forgiveness to the forgiven.

[@thomcarr7021]

@@ronjones1414 Somewhere I read that anger is the punishment we do to ourselves because of the actions of someone else. And the worst part is when that person is enjoying the situation.

[@piehound]

Probably the (1) most complete and (2) most concise and (3) the simplest exposition of this topic i've ever heard. Well done. Thanks.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Thank you.

[@jhmumma]

I agree. This is brilliant.

[@piehound]

@@jeff_forsythe yes it does sound very simple indeed. But . . . what about liking or disliking something or someone ??? The line between hatred and strong dislike is very thin. It would be nice if we could simply ignore what we dislike. But in my experience what i dislike often does not simply go away. Nor can i simply ignore or escape it. Hence misery is a constant companion. Words can indeed simplify concepts. But actually walking the walk is not so so simple after all. Thanks.

[@piehound]

@@jeff_forsythe you seem like a smart fellow. I too am a fart smellow. We have much in common.

[@piehound]

@@jeff_forsythe haha. That's a good one. They say great minds think alike. Forgive me. I must be having way too much fun.

[@diamondmidnightgardener]

Man, I don't know why you came up in my 'feed', but this is truly nourishing; thank you.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Welcome to the channel. Glad you are with us.

[@erniea4424]

Forgiveness is a process, not an event.

[@almiragulch9975]

Sometimes it takes years...

[@ruskinyruskiny1611]

@@almiragulch9975 To cultivate a good habit takes time.

[@victormalyar9200]

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice; shame on me.

[@woodtool2882]

I'm glad I discovered you. I needed to get a deeper understanding of the concepts surrounding forgiveness.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Welcome to the channel.

[@CHDean]

Read the Bible. His wisdom is sound with regards to forgiveness.

[@CHDean]

@@jeff_forsythe An organization that worships their human leader like he is a god, claiming he can levitate and walk through walls? None of that sounds reliable, except that they do oppose Communist Chinese political oppression.

[@thesoundpurist]

This man is good. So much bs on KZbin but this man has deep knowledge.

[@sloth6247]

I wish therapist would talk like this instead of just listening to gossip without judgment and being permissive about everything.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Sometimes we do give advice

[@sloth6247]

@@DrMarkBaker they never teach.

[@enough1494]

Generalizing is ……….not a correct statement.

[@sloth6247]

@@enough1494 Generally, therapist listen to what you say without judgement and are permissive about everything you say until you get a clue on your own, unless, it brakes certain laws. That’s how they are trained. Specifically, they’re not all like this.

[@Skoey1337]

forgiveness is letting go of all the hurt and accepting the flaws inherent in everyone there is no in between, forgiveness works but requires surrendering which is the highest for of control over your life.

[@crookedfingersgirl7356]

Thank You Doctor. I'm super grateful your video was placed in my suggestions.... .I actually held my breath waiting for your response to 'stay away even from those who reconcile' and was soooo relieved ny the answer! I subbed.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Most welcome!

[@scottgresham6759]

I'm thankful to see this video and its insights. A lot of people in this world struggle to forgive and release certain people, be set free and move on with their lives. We live in a world where the majority of people are interested in the pursuit of justice and ignore the critical need to forgive people where it is needed and due.

[@phyllisnorenberg7290]

Forgiveness is all you have left at the end of the day for others and yourself.

[@bettycurry6752]

I just do my best to avoid people who have let me down…..thank you for this wisdom….👍💝

[@DrMarkBaker]

Good strategy.

[@user-jn6jm4bb6f]

I would suggest taking his wonderful advice and applying it solely to myself. There is a current self and there is a self of then. All the problem lies in the attitude of my current self , to the self of that moment when the incident happened. Most problems have their deep roots in a lack of forgiveness for myself that was at the time of the incident. The present self judges him harshly, calls him weak, helpless and beats him constantly. We are bullies towards the old self, towards the child we were. Our mind is the problem. Since our brain is lazy and loves patterns, it hides this image from us and instead blames others for our problems so that it doesn't have to work to solve them. once you realize that the problem is only in the confrontation between you and yourselves, you will learn to forgive yourself, to absolve yourself, It is true that your mind will protest against this and will try in every way to dissuade you from it (because it will require it to work), but if you succeed, everything will work out by itself.

[@LearnCompositionOnline]

This might should be the top video on KZbin this week

[@DrMarkBaker]

Thanks.

[@TrevorWhite-ep6lg]

It's nice to find a video that explores forgiveness which is something we are told to do within the biblical scripture... My long inner search for answers and many hours myself on this subject to forgive close family members etc... it took a long time to determine that forgiveness is obviously measured by the level you have been affected by the actions... Children in younger stages can do some horrible things, but I as children we learn to forgive these actions, mainly these will come during teenage, after a childhood of good parenting they go off in a tangent... If this is a pattern that's running into the adult life and still bringing deep upset then it's time to analyse your feelings and be brutally honest with yourself. Me personally I found I have a threshold and beyond this point there is no true forgiving... The only one that benefits is the one that hurt your feelings too deeply, we can essentially try to rebuild our relationship lost but "once bitten" It's all too often 100 times bitten by the same one and then it's crossing lines as narcissistic behaviour... The truth is if someone hurts you to a point you can't forget the experience that relationship will move to a very STILTED place and you are always guarding yourself, doesn't mean the person won't continue to upset your equilibrium and the resentment grows deeper and the veil thins in your patience for the situation but reluctant to blow up.. . Self preservation is a lesson I wish I'd learnt long ago, sensitive, compassionate people are always on the receiving end of the TAKERS in life... I've become sadly incredibly untrusting as I've grown older,, I realised most of the upset I received was because I unwillingly allowed that situation in to my life. . Recognise quickly when others are preying on your kindness... I learnt once HURT too badly regardless of wether a child of mine or not some things are never forgotten and although I'm not one for holding a grudge I'm not now one to keep heart doors open and allow the cycle to continue... I can say I forgive you but I'll never really mean it and will always be wary of any kind gesture my way... Maybe these are the "sins" that we need forgiveness for the higher powers to feel in some way forgiven .. for me,, if you truly don't feel forgiveness, don't say it just to make another person happy... You are essentially being fake with yourself and lose your authentic self... 🍀🍀🍀🍀

[@DrMarkBaker]

Don't say you forgive to make others feel better. That's just excusing their bad behavior. And don't allow abusive people to hang around you. Keep good boundaries with hurtful people. Forgive them to release yourself from resentment, not to say what they did was OK. It wasn't.

[@johnprentice1527]

Brilliant summary of true forgiveness; so well explained. Thank you.

[@dmustakasjr]

You may forgive. But probably won’t forget.

[@DrMarkBaker]

I agree

[@maggieb369]

What if the person has been out of your life for many years and contact isn’t possible ?How does the process work then?

[@coltonwashburn6556]

Sometimes it is just acceptance…….. and move on.

[@KtotheG]

He's saying that if you wince or get negative feelings every time that person is mentioned, then you haven't forgiven or accepted it.

[@donaldmorckel1684]

YES ...... release the Resentment , that's the KEY moment !

[@CHDean]

Golly, that sounds a lot like forgiveness.

[@findtruth5329]

Wow. I don't even have the words. I've dealt with this so long.. and you try explaining to to someone or a group of people that have no real understanding of themselves or reality or anything much outside of materialism. And you can't remove yourself from the situation because you've married into it and something about their "tribe" is just ignorant to the subtleties of humanity. I mean, it's not so subtle but some people just cannot be reached through reasonable means. Even after you've explained this perfectly and beautifully, I know it cannot make a difference to a heart of stone. I will take comfort in the fact that YOU understand it and that not everybody is an animal. Yes, I know how bad that sounds but I have no other words for how some of these creatures conduct themselves and then judge you for you reciprocating the treatment they output. You cannot reason with them. They cannot empathize with you and when you treat them the way they've treated you, they call you names or are upset lol I mean reality can be baffling. Sometimes, you just need to know that 1 person understands and that is sufficient. Really, THANK YOU for not only taking the time to put this content out there but for explaining it so clearly and concisely; you've earned at least 1 new subscriber and I will definitely share this with as many people as I can.

[@DrMarkBaker]

You, and people like you, are why I do what I do. Thank you.

[@secretagent4610]

I said it before and I'll say it again. I can't forgive them if they don't repent or get punished. It's not a choice. If I tell myself I forgive someone when there's none of that, the forgiveness won't work. It'll just be me lying to myself. It's like trying to tell yourself you're wearing boots when you're walking on gravel barefoot. Lying to yourself about reality doesn't make it go away.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Lying to yourself is not forgiveness. It's just words that don't mean anything.

[@secretagent4610]

@@DrMarkBaker Exactly, but my greater point is that forgiveness and repentance are like a lock and key. You can't have one without the other, or at least that's been my personal experience.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Actually, reconciliation and repentance are like a lock and key. You can’t have one without the other, but you can forgive people and move on with your life without them even knowing it. Forgiveness is for you to be freed from resentment. It’s not to give the other person access back into your life.

[@secretagent4610]

@@DrMarkBaker But this goes full circle for me. Even if they're no longer in my life, my just saying I forgive them to myself doesn't actually make me forgive them. No matter how hard I try it, it never works. When I think about forgiving them, I then think about the smug look on their face that they got away with doing what they did which makes me even less forgiving and more angry. There can only be repentance or punishment. "If a man sins against you seven times and HE REPENTS seven times, you must forgive him seven times." That's from the Bible. This statement has two meanings. The first is that someone must repent in order to be forgiven. The second is that you must repent in order for god to forgive you. Without repentance, there can be no forgiveness, not genuine, honest, true actual forgiveness anyway.

[@secretagent4610]

@@jeff_forsythe You missed my point. I literally can't do it no matter how hard I try. When I tell visualize myself saying "I forgive this person" and I imagine their smug face and the fact that they wouldn't care, it just makes me even more angry and less forgiving. The act of trying to force myself to forgive someone who doesn't feel sorry at all just makes me worse. This concept of "you forgive them for yourself" is bs. Only reason why people talk about forgive this and that is because they don't have the guts or power to get justice, so they needed to make up some bs about "you forgive them for yourself". It's just cope in the guise of moral spiritual bs.

[@somersetcace1]

This was well explained and not inaccurate from what I can see, but not the way I've viewed it or came to terms with it. I had an event in my life at one point that required dealing with this issue head on. It was serious. It was the kind of anger and resentment that wouldn't subside. I thought forgiveness was the answer, but I didn't think the inability to reconcile, (and it was absolutely not possible,) was the issue. I came to the realization that the reason `forgiveness didn't work,` was because I was trying to use it as something that `would work.` A means to an end. What was it that I actually wanted? To get rid of those feelings. To stop having this person `living rent free in my head,` so to speak. Once I realized the selfish nature of it, I was able to come to terms with it.

[@DrMarkBaker]

I’m glad you found your way to peace. Abusive people do not have squatters rights in our heads.

[@FyreCat3454]

Thanks for the video! It helped me a lot. Without sharing unnecessary details, I ceased interacting with the source of my resentment (a person) long ago. However I felt guilty for years because I thought I needed to socialise with that person to prove that I'd forgiven them; yet I couldn't because I was afraid they'd hurt me again (I've known them long enough to know they'd never repent). The fact that I've not made any attempt to harm or slander them since is a good sign I'm on the right track. I also think it helps the healing process to occupy your mind and heart with new interests; like maybe a new hobby like art or cooking for example. This way, your focus would be fixated on your new hobby or interest, and less on the memories of the event or person who hurt you. This way, the person or event will become a smaller part of your life, and the space it use to occupy will be filled with other thoughts.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Very wise words. It sounds like you have forgiven this person and you are free from resentment. I strongly support you never seeing them again. Some people you should not even try to reconcile with. Those are the ones who will only hurt you again.

[@FyreCat3454]

@@DrMarkBaker Thanks again

[@theotormon]

There have been times I could not forgive the other person for their actions until I admitted that I also needed to be forgiven for mine.

[@sizzles48]

I experienced this and it’s true. It works, I held resentment in my heart for 30 years until I sat down with the person and expressed my feelings. It was very difficult but cathartic and I’m no longer crippled with this terrible pain.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Thank you for your honesty. I’m glad you were able to work it through and find freedom from resentment.

[@rsviews2167]

When someone hurts me, in ANY way, all my heart really wants is for that person to realize the wrong doing and just stop. To achieve this, any wrong doer simply has to put himself/herself/themselves in my place. That NEVER happens. So I move away, and most of the time, I'm the weird one. If I hurt someone, I usually sense it, and I then make sure to let them know I am truly sorry and that I will never do it again, even if they don't forgive me. That's my behaving code. Anger is baggage.

[@M_butterfly788.-tf8bd]

Not everyone is an empath. Unfortunately. 💔💕 I like the way you explained it because that’s exactly how I feel too about a lot of things.

[@nonyadamnbusiness9887]

Excellent. If Christianity was actually about following Jesus, this is all church would be 24/7. Jesus left us one commandment, to love one another but it's the hardest thing to do because people suck. It takes a lot of work and a lot of support to do it.

[@hedge931]

This is the explanation I have been wishing I had words for for years. THANK YOU! Thank you so much. Thank God. I'm so sick of people telling me to forgive them when they won't acknowledge my feelings or perspective. They treat me like I'm the monster, like I can't forgive them. I literally can't do anything more than what I've done. Ironically, all I've been trying to do the whole time is to get them to understand me. But far be it from them to see themselves as a roadblock to reconciliation. I can forgive people all day. But forgiveness is NOT a permission slip to be in my life. I almost didn't click on this video because the title seemed a bit misleading. I understand it helps with the youtube algorithm to make titles like that, but I still don't like it lol. Well, glad I clicked anyway.

[@DrMarkBaker]

I’m glad you clicked, too. You are forgiving, they block reconciliation. Set good boundaries and don’t cast pearls before swine.

[@carlharmeling512]

This was very illuminating and very profound. Seeing deep into the heart of darkness takes courage and determination. Thank you Dr. Baker. Unfortunately all such knowledge of pain and the acknowledgment of responsibility for the pain of others is simply an impossibility. No one can feel the pain of another except in fantasy. Repentance is for the sinner but also for those who are sinned against which is the sin of resentment and adoption of a victim and vengeful attitude. Thus resentment is harder to repent of than the original sin. Moral symmetry is a myth, there is no such thing as moral equivalency. An eye for an eye assumes that all eyes are equal which is obviously false. The only One who really knows doesn’t care.

[@mikehamilton7668]

This is a great teaching on forgiveness. One thing that has greatly helped me, because I could never be convinced that I have forgiven those who hurt me, was that forgiveness doesn't mean that you need "restoration". You may have found out that those who hurt you, really are not the type of people you need, want, or should have. Sometimes what the relationship had come from, is not what you want to get back to.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Absolutely. Do not let hurtful people back in your life. Thank you for your insights.

[@josephmassaro]

Forgiving someone for ourselves is a mind trick that we play on ourselves. It's a way we rationalize ourselves into a place we can accept. This is particularly true when it comes to people who do not seek our forgiveness or even acknowledge their wrong doing. Personally, I don't forgive people who do this. I don't wish them ill, but I don't wish them well. I simply move on from them. I learn what I can from the experience and try to avoid getting into a rinse and repeat with someone else.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Excusing, minimizing, rationalizing, tolerating, and denial are all mind tricks. Forgiveness is something else.

[@josephmassaro]

@@DrMarkBaker When it comes to forgiving those who don't ask for it or acknowledge what they did, it's a mind trick to help us deal with the person who wronged us. They are not going to apologize and most people need some kind of closure. Hence, it's a mind trick. When a person actually apologizes and seeks forgiveness, that's another matter. Although I will add, always pay attention to how an apology is given. If the apology is more about them and how they feel and how hard it's been for them with very little acknowledgment about the other person's feelings, then the apology is for them and not the person they wronged. They're seeking absolution. Probably because their guilty subconscious has finally caught up with them and they want to relieve themselves of that burden. They didn't apologize when the other person was burdened. Only when they were. In my opinion, not a genuine apology.

[@Limonaid]

This makes a lot of sense and helpful especially after your last video about forgiveness/resentment. Thank you 🙏

[@DrMarkBaker]

So glad!

[@brianmatthews4323]

Just because you have emotional pangs when you recall a past hurt doesn't mean you didn't truly forgive; it only means you're human. Just remind yourself of your DECISION to forgive and then just move on without beating yourself up over it. Rinse and repeat as often as necessary.

[@TOMG12XU]

Code. Boundaries. Armor. Shunning. Code. Boundaries, Amour. Forgiveness. Depends on the offender/offending.

[@kjbrocky]

Very good. One thing you didn't mention is that you can't make another person listen or communicate or reconcile with you even if you're willing and want to. They have to want to, too.

[@bitbit6820]

Let them be. Some of them don't deserve our lesson for them.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Correct. If the other person doesn't want to reconcile, or is unable, then don't put yourself in that situation. You can't reconcile with someone who can't take responsibility for their actions.

[@davidjorgensen877]

DAMN! You nailed it! You summarized in three and half minutes what took me decades to formulate based on personal experience.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Thanks for that. Glad it helped.

[@harvelle1]

Thank you Dr. Baker. Teach!

[@DrMarkBaker]

Thank you

[@johnnyofthesticks7260]

sometimes you need JUSTICE. To start to forgive. if you ve been abused you need justice as a first step.

[@DrMarkBaker]

You always need justice. Forgiveness is something different.

[@johnnyofthesticks7260]

​@@DrMarkBaker if you ve been abused you cant forgive with impunity

[@golightly5121]

TY, this was helpful.

[@aidankiely9672]

Excellent video. So often people don’t understand that forgiveness is a process, a commitment rather than a single event that happens when a single actor forgiveness is made. When understood this way, it works. If people who say that they can’t forgive come to understand that making the decision to try means they have already started, they see forgiveness in a way that they can cope with.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Well said.

[@Diogenes425]

Just because you forgive someone doesn’t mean you have to be chummy with them.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Very True.

[@blank557]

Forgiveness does not mean you have to trust or remain in the vicinity of those who hurt you. Never expect that others to appreciate or change just becasue you forgave them. Forgiveness provides them not just an open door for them to repent, but it also excises bitterness and revenge in you.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Correct. Don’t let hurtful people stay in your life.

[@carolovesteven]

Forgiveness is for you. If you do not forgive it will bring you bitterness and resentment. That can breed roots for hatred. Forgive and forget. That doesn’t mean you have to tolerate any abuse or the person you’ve forgiven. You’re doing it for your own peace of mind and keeping you heart postured in l♥️ve.

[@lewjames6688]

This describes exactly how we both as individuals and as a society should treat criminals. Thank you for clarifying my heretofore vague thoughts!

[@martinarosenberger2525]

Thank you for this cristal clear explanation and differentiation. Truth in a nutshell!

[@DrMarkBaker]

Glad it was helpful!

[@insomnolant6043]

I told them gently and honestly. They told me "get over it." I won't retaliate, but I don't think I can forgive them, because they aren't sorry and don't care how it affected me.

[@DrMarkBaker]

If they are not open and willing to be vulnerable, you cannot reconcile with them. I would set good boundaries between you and them and move on.

[@kayr4751]

I have a lot of experience with this so I will add that we are spirits in bodies, and we hear the spirit realm and the natural realm. The devil knows who to use to push your buttons and what to say to your mind to make it seem you have not forgiven when you have. Resist those lying thoughts when you know you have done your best to work it out and keep faith in the journey. Amen

[@CupcakeExplosion]

I agree with some points. I don't believe one 'has to forgive', like it's a requirement. No, it's a choice the offended party makes based on their experience(s). I think it's healthy to ultimately accept what took place, understand what is or isn't reconcilable, if possible to whatever point understand how things got to where they got, acknowledge one's own part if they do in fact have a part in the situation and when appropriate cut ties. I appreciate the spirit of this video but I respectfully don't agree with all factors. Each individual has the sovereign right to make such personal decisions on whether to forgive or not. There is no obligation to forgive. It is not immoral to not forgive or to even be apprehensive to do so. My views for a grown adult person are: First, Do No Harm. Second, Do Good (where/when it is safe to do so). Third, One May Stop Enduring Patterns of Abuses When/Where They're Able. Fourth, Keep Yourself Safe and Healthy to the Best of Your Ability. Fifth, When/Where Necessary, Self-Defense is Everyone's Divine Right to be Used Appropriately and Accordingly (especially when it comes to walking away, no-contact, starting over in whatever way and means possible). Just to add some reality, children often times do not have these capabilities within situations they are put in. There still does not exist any type of Children's Bill of Rights that is considered or enforced in the courts. The truth when it comes to the welfare of children in this regard is entirely repugnant. Not all persons have such authority or protections. In this day and age, children are still regarded as property, not people with any personal decision making abilities to affect their own situations. This is still an area few people want to address when discussing who we allow to be in our lives, how to deal with dysfunctional conditions and when/where to forgive. Some individuals have more effect in their circumstances than others, children just being one example.

[@DrMarkBaker]

No one has to forgive. Forgiveness is to release you from resentment, it is not for the other person. And there are some people you should not even try to reconcile with. There are people you just should not have in your life.

[@deanodog3667]

Indifference is better !!

[@MizrahiChick]

Best comment. The opposite of love is not hatred , it is indifference.

[@SzokkozS]

Dear Dr. Baker, Thank you for all your videos, they are all quite interesting, informative and thought provoking, and I really like your approach on how you're explaining within the 'small format' - true and deep thoughts don't really require a sea of words. Looking forward to your future posts! 👍 Bless, Oli

[@DrMarkBaker]

Thank you for your encouragement

[@rachelr8837]

I agree, especially with the last part. Never had that conversation with the person and it still bothers me...

[@DrMarkBaker]

I’m sorry, but there are some people who are just not open to reconciliation or are unable to do it. Do your best to forgive and move on.

[@ameroamigo1]

Excellent video. Thank you.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Glad it was helpful!

[@tissah4444]

This is so, so, so hard for me. I’ve known I have to talk to my parents for years…I’m still trying to find the courage. I feel like my legs will give out. I can’t even begin to describe the pain that’s been in me since I was a kid.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Don’t do this alone. Get help to free yourself from resentment.

[@theresaandrade5708]

I did experience forgiveness on a deeper level with a forgiveness and release of the person and they left my life. I did not need their participation. Without a forgiveness meditation however, it hasn't been effective and is only surface level like you described.

[@pieyedapple]

THANK YOU for this explanation. I feel I say I forgive someone, but I cannot forget what they did.. .and, then, I feel like I didn't even start the process. Esp., for those repeat offenders

[@kyliepine3713]

Thankyou for that explanation

[@DrMarkBaker]

Glad it was helpful!

[@sonicleaves]

I'll forgive my mother but I will never reconcile with her. I wish her the best with the rest of her life. We were never meant to in each other's life to start with. It was a cosmic mistake. But we can get on with our lives, some people are not meant to be family and that's ok. It's ok to move on a thrive as well.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Yes

[@moreplease998]

Forgiveness is not about placing any expectation on the other person. It's about you yourself letting go of feelings of resentment for them stemming from what they've done in the past. You don't have to become their friends again if you forgive them. If you know they still can't be trusted then that's just a lesson learned. With forgiveness you've just let go in a way that isn't about trying to be better than them or coming to see them as not worth caring about.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Sometimes you need to forgive and move on. With some people, don't' even try to reconcile.

[@Eyesayah]

If I'm not mistaken, some churches provide counseling for 'warring' parties to facilitate reconciliation.

[@qdllc]

Forgiveness is like love. It's not a feeling...it's a choice. A choice you have to make every day. Eventually, it gets easier to do and has more sincerity, but at first, it is largely an act of shear willpower.

[@solb101]

Forgiveness doesn’t require anything from the other person. If you forgive you let go of all feelings and expectations and don’t identify with them. Then you will truly be free.

[@beebee9803]

I would say forgive others (especially the Narcissists in your life). Then move forward, take them out of your thoughts, your personal space, and then go enjoy your new-found freedom from their destructive toxicity. Never expect them to understand, accept responsibility for their actions, or that they will ever apologize --- will never happen. But YOU can take control of this situation & gain healthy closure. Will it be easy to do? Probably not. Will it be worth doing? Absolutely !!! I know --- I did it & I am finally happy & at peace ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤

[@-441-]

This needs to be shown EVERYWHERE!!! 🔥🔥🔥🔥

[@DrMarkBaker]

Thank you.

[@daves2822]

If they strike you, turn the other cheek. The person who offends you tries to pull into the mire with them, forgiveness releases you from the toxic bondage they attempt to ensnare you with. It frees your heart and mind of the weight of that hurt. However it does not mean you need to engage with them. Forgive them and move on with your life with them, not a part of it. But alwaya pray to the Lord our God for them.

[@petera2133]

What a terrific explanation. Love it.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Thank you.

[@jerrycowley6784]

Forgiveness is for the forgiver, not the forgiven. It frees your soul.

[@cheyrncheyrn]

Forgiveness means not having resentment about the other person about something. It doesn't mean validating what they did, and it is unconditional, not dependent on the other person.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Yes.

[@cheyrncheyrn]

@@DrMarkBaker I repeated what you said, I guess.

[@EcomCarl]

Insightful distinction between forgiveness and reconciliation! Understanding that forgiveness can be a solo journey while reconciliation requires a mutual effort helps navigate complex personal and professional relationships more effectively. 🔑

[@DrMarkBaker]

Well said.

[@zubairpatel5451]

Fantastic stuff. For some reason your content showed up on my feed in a time that I really need it.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Awesome, thank you!

[@princexl33840]

Thanks for this informative but very sensitive video. Forgiveness is a "process" and contrary to it's lame interpretation by organized religion, there's a need to study and teach forgiveness deeply as a concept and a subject. Failure to do so is what has led humans into this miserable state we dwell within. Forgiveness involves sincere discussions, honest expressions, reconciliation, confessions and if possible, compensation. As long we continue to trivialize forgiveness, our interpersonal relations will continue to suffer and we will remain in this quagmire until the end of time.

[@DrMarkBaker]

You get it. The American psychological Association agrees with you and has several resources and research on forgiveness on their website.

[@matthewsteele8448]

Thank you

[@DrMarkBaker]

Welcome!

[@Pinpilinlique]

Absolutely yes. Thank you. Very valuable explanation.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Glad it was helpful!

[@Jaime-eg4eb]

Most stuff that happens around me is not for me to forgive. Who people chose to be is their business, not mine. If they are awful I just want to get away from them asap

[@mstanley97]

This is the best explanation I've heard. Thank you as I needed this. 🙏

[@DrMarkBaker]

Glad it was helpful!

[@klomax7089]

Amen

[@blakeharrison3972]

I love the bite size information , I learn a lot but it’s in short form

[@DrMarkBaker]

Thank you.

[@James-t9h4d]

Everything within reason, i mean if no forgiveness the world would be blind.

[@houndmother2398]

Thank you. I think what happens is that rarely do you get through all 3 levels.

[@DrMarkBaker]

I think you may be right

[@breynnbailey1287]

This is a great explanation of this. I often can do the first one but with people that I still have to be around all the time I feel the second but they aren't always available to do those steps with. But thank you for this video.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Sadly, you are right.

[@redactedandredactedaccesor7290]

This helped me figure some stuff out. Thanks.

[@DrMarkBaker]

Glad it helped!

[@misottovoce]

Very interesting video and parts of it resonate with me. However, dealing with narcissists is an entirely different 'book'. They will not listen to you (because you do not 'count'), they never take responsibility for their actions and consequences, they will ALWAYS turn it around to you and gaslight you. And, of course they are the purpetual victim...and THAT is all that counts for them. My covert negligent narcissist husband passed away last March for whom I was his sole caregiver for years. He has peace now (from himself) and so do I. Life is grand again. On his last days when he was in his morphine cloud, I whispered 'I forgive you'...knowing he could hear me and also knowing it would annoy him greatly...because since he was perfect there was nothing to forgive since HE was always the victim. No one else ever. I said it for me. Frankly, I did not really mean it but I could 'release him' since I took emotional distance from him years ago. Each day without him is a joy and peaceful and I have myself back again. I feel allive.

[@AutomationDnD]

Xcellent summation. We _NEVER_ talk about this stuff in modern society any more

[@DrMarkBaker]

I wish we did. Thanks.

[@lisarussell8874]

Practice forgiveness for yourself, in that you dont carry the person or their actions inside you anymore. The rest is on them.

[@M_butterfly788.-tf8bd]

How do you not carry the person anymore? How do you not carry their actions anymore?

[@jerrysears7607]

I agree on some parts. About half. True forgiveness is for the offended AND the offender. Bible: Jesus says to forgive everyone, so you can be forgiving. I never try to complicate this belief. It's straightforward and simple. Very difficult sometimes. 😊 Forgiveness has to work or I can't be forgiving.