Why I'm (Probably) never getting brain augmentation - but one thing I might

All my links: linktr.ee/dave...

[@gubzs]

Something that keeps me up at night is targeted memory erasure. Not as a bad thing, I worry that it is _necessary_ and won't be possible. How many times have you wished you could experience something for the first time again? Even something trivial like food or a recreational experience? How much more often will that inevitably occur when you've lived for hundreds of years? I've spent a lot of time thinking about what an idealized existence is, at least for me, and I think it's the ability to erase memories of full dive experiences, and do them for the first time again, only to return at the end and be able to recollect memories or review notes to decide what to do next. Human existence is the pursuit of safety, security, and novelty, it is what we do. If we have safety and security, the scarcity of novelty is a terror so deep that it borders on Lovecraftian. Some might say existence without memory lacks meaning, but if you can return to a base reality in between amnesiac dreams, and recall and remember before diving back into a near infinite pool of experiences, I'd say that's as close to perfection as existence gets. In the event that we have mind-connections rather than mind-replacements, couldn't this be an "external hard drive" sort of situation? Would love to hear other's thoughts on the matter.

[@ValentineandLance]

The way you explain things and choose the perfect words. I’m new to all this but man do you have a gift of communication. You are awesome!

[@MorningStarNews]

I’m not interested in replacing my brain, I’m interested in replacing my body.

[@HarryFunmaker]

I agree. I don't need Google's knowledge loaded into my brain when I can easily access it with a phone that I can take anywhere. Any other increased abilities would change who I am and why do that when I can just use AI on a computer instead? All I want is a way to repair brain damage and a way to prevent dementia. I might enjoy bionic legs, though.

[@ct5471]

It's always good to have a back-up

[@GamingXperience]

Same, the problem is, your brain is squishy and no matter how hard your skull is, your brain will still take damage when something happens to you. So what use is it for me, if i replace or enhance my body to the point i can run 200 km/h or jump down skyscraper or get hit by a truck without breaking any limbs, when my brain turns into tomato soup?

[@willbrand77]

Best video you've made in a while. Really thought provoking and insightful! Thanks!

[@ct5471]

I think that we have a strong tendency and history to uplift our own cognition beyond a purely materialistic or patternistic view, attributing features like a soul or at least an overarching „me“ that is essentially the same over all time. More likely it comes down to a state of awareness or consciousness but it is essentially unique to the moment and gone the next. Memories might form, providing me with the illusion to still be the me of 5 years ago. A lot of these are forgotten (essentially these past states are entirely lost), but then I wouldn’t remember as I have no other reference. In some people this memory access is lost entirely and they do not associate themself with any past state any more (it essentially was for them a different person with similar personality traits). In terms of matter the atoms of my body and brain underly a constant turnover, the me of 5 years ago is now completely distributed to the environment. Only the pattern in which they are assembled is somewhat stable. A brain upload copy with this access would be no less a continuation of a past state (survival of the patterns) then if the biological instance remains. None would be more the me that exists now, than I am the me that did exist 5 years ago, it’s already an illusion, there are only states of consciousness with or without access to memories formed in the past (some might even be hallucinated and never happened). If someone deleted my memories formed today and shoed me a video of me going through the day, I would say it is a fake and wouldn’t associate myself with this individual. Still in that deleted timeframe this me would have been conscious, the memories just didn’t make it.

[@wurfelgott1520]

But does that mean that each moment there is a completely different consciousness in my body, and these are all connected through memories?

[@Drailmon]

This is an interesting take David, Ray Kurzweil seems to think that AGI/ASI will be able to produce nanobots that can enter the bloodstream and seamlessly integrate with the brain for high bandwidth read/write and internet connection.

[@ct5471]

@@tommiest3769we already have solutions for current implants, be it suppressants or coating materials the immune system ignores. Also by the time we have nanobots reprogramming the immune system should be easy, we already do it to some extent with hypersensibilisation against allergies or immuno therapies. One idea is even to have nanobots to act as dna and rna synthesizers, so essentially to print and release chains of amino acids, essentially a secondary remote controlled immune system that can be wirelessly updated in case of new pathogenes

[@DaveShap]

That's basically magical thinking. There is presently no technological path to that. Now, I'm not going to say it's impossible, but yeah, that's about as likely as warp drive.

[@Drailmon]

@@DaveShap I would tend to agree that nanobots seem like a highly unlikely technology given known physics, but it is interesting coming from such a heavy hitter as Ray. To me biological or genomic engineering to allow the nervous system to interface with wireless signals seems more feasible.

[@danielash1704]

Butter pecan cake recipe is too sweet ​@@tommiest3769

[@scandalousgemini]

The chatbots disagree saying nanobots is possible possible in the 2030s

[@prolamer7]

Very good perspective and well researched, quality content!

[@BunnyOfThunder]

If we're nothing more than matter and energy and the data that comes from that, that's not sad. That's amazing. The elegence of a universe of complexity arising from the simplicity of a few laws is a miracle.

[@Wanderer2035]

There’s a lot more to us than that, there’s a spiritual aspect to us too. We don’t want to start replacing our physical selves with machine parts, that will hurt our connection to our spiritual aspects.

[@WildPeanuts]

he david im just here to say that i admire the way you convey your thoughts. the way you do it concisely and it pretty much always makes sense what you say. i feel like i could listen endlessly :)

[@alancoffey3088]

Thanks

[@eye776]

You just described “Cyberpsychosis” 😂

[@bigzi22]

So true lol

[@squintyourears]

I love how your mind works and this was fascinating. This kind of thought process is exactly how we figure out the nature of our existence. Thank you!

[@ct5471]

Consciousness is most likely the nested communication of different models in the brain. Some cortical columns model my body, others my environment, other more abstract concepts, like a model in a model in a model, or a network of models that results in various feedback loops, or a feedback loop network. Models that include knowledge of their own existence. My preceived body is a model (or a communicating network of various models, modelling different overlapping aspects) of my physical body linked to body sensors and integrated in models of my environment that are also derived from sensory (actuallymotor-sensor) inputs. Consciousness might thus be scalable, a larger network enables a greater awareness of itself and other things and the relations between. Its an emergent property, but I think it can be broken down to the communication between cortical columns, no need for overarching electical fields only the very discrete communication patterns via synapese and neurons we know of. Neither is an external source required to broadcast consciousness into my brain. We should stick to occam's razor here, the brain and its inner communications is all there is

[@Firestorm12345678910]

Yes but don't forget why all these (seemingly complicated) systems and models exist FOR and that ain't for an individual (a person as in more of a philosophical sense) but rather for the causal completely mechanical function to reproduce. You basically have the 4fs of evolution and that get's "clothed" with tribes and civilization (a larger tribe that is able to exist because of technology - concrete, concrete jungle cities and wireless communications).

[@ct5471]

@@Firestorm12345678910 True, but doesn't prevent the individual from pursuing individualistic goals. Evolution exists at all levels, genes as well as memes (Richard Dawkins).

[@Firestorm12345678910]

@@ct5471There are no individualistic goals. For example the goal of guard ants (and this may be too much simplifying it) is to guard the ant colony (and or to guard something else...). So while each individual chimpanzee in their colony (troop) does seemingly have individualistic goals so perhaps one chimpanzee could forage for food towards the left direction instead of his friend that does the opposite. But those are all just behaviors. A chimpanzee does not have the freedom or "free-will" to climb up a leaf like an ant nor can an ant out-pace in speed a chimpanzee. Humans need technology to fly like birds (sort of) in planes. So I would say that there is no...substance to thoughts, emotions and feelings therefore rendering all those things meaningless, pointless as well. So while yes there is undoubtedly something there such as let's say a movie it obviously exists and one can see it on the theater screen however there is no movie at all unless the information is stored in something tangible a medium such as ssd, hard drives, old school film tape, memories in neurons etc. And of course you can't get to a movie projector (ie to recreate it, the optics, the various motors, gears, microchips etc) just by following the photons backwards(!) the composition of the film to their source. Ok fine ...maybe some high tech aliens may be able to reconstruct 'a projector'...but it will be some weird alien projector and definitely not the same and exact projector (down to the brand!) that humans built (hope I'm not mucking this up). And the same goes with our brain and how it processes information. An idea seemingly pops out of our brain and it feels like that an agent "I" had it or "I" made that thought happen. However just like with a film being projected to the silver screen the film (thoughts) is the illusion while the brain (the projector device) is the only thing that seems to be real (fyi it also requires energy but that's beside the point). One possible way to disprove this no substance to one's mental life thing would be to somehow prove that the projecting device is also an illusion so the entire thing ie reality/universe could just be one big illusion but that's treading pantheistic territory and not that particularly useful or I should think if one want's to be a utilitarian. So when it comes to the human being I think that at the core we just "wan't to" divide to replicate because we too are made out of cells. But instead of a simple (simpler comparatively) cell division (ie asexual cloning) we do the messy more time consuming (here may be exceptions but generally speaking) more complicated sexual reproduction instead(!) AND that brings with it all it's baggage. We must use 'reproduction' to say solve math problems or to make ourselves believe that we are special ie in religions and in personal philosophies. You can't just somehow metaphysically hover above reproduction and go from there. Nor can you achieve some sort of wisdom or enlightenment and thereby separating yourself from it because that's the I call it the root of this tree called life. FYI the branches of the tree is where all the fun to be had but yet again no branches without the root. (and what's with the weird youtube word wrapping my sentences?, oh well)

[@nomadv7860]

Yeah I was always worried that during the conversion process to artificial neurons, the real “you” would die in the middle of it, but this would be completely imperceptible because the newly made Chalmers robot as you called it would be exactly like you with your memories. So even the new you wouldn’t know that the old you died. That’s extremely terrifying to me.

[@ct5471]

the question is is the you right now still the you of 5 years ago? The atoms have changed almost entirely in the process of metabolic turnover, only the pattern in which the matter is arranged is somewhat consistent (or better to say the synapic connections). But then in mind uploading, be it in a continous process or disrupive in one go, these patterns are precisely what is transfered, so apart from the change in substrate it wouldn't be much different then what we already experience or better to say don't experience. There is no 5 year old version of one self complaining that he has been replaced by a slighty different but still similar version. The continuity of one consistent self over time is already an illusion.

[@NullHand]

The old Star Trek transporter beam of death! But can we really be sure this isn't what happens every time we lose consciousness each night we go to sleep?

[@nomadv7860]

@@ct5471 Yes actually because while most of our cells turnover, almost all of the neurons in our brain do not change from birth. I think that is an important distinction, it's not like our skin which is constantly shedding

[@tobfrank_]

Is mind uploading going to be a “copy paste” or a “cut paste”

[@NullHand]

@@tobfrank_ Well, I guess that will mostly depend on societal need and means. Is your sustenance earned by paid labor? If so copy/paste would make sense. If you are on some sort of UBI/fixed income then cut/paste would at least not spam your pension to death. The current Copy/Merge/Paste method takes a Looong time, but has been fairly well tested over a few hundred million years to be long term durable against obsolescence.

[@johnwilson7680]

I have aphantasia, a condition where I cannot visualize at all; sometimes called mental blindness. When you were talking about information that is there but the brain just can't access it, I wonder sometimes if this condition is something similar. Sometimes it feels like I have a visualization of something but there is a black curtain hanging over it. It's hard for me to describe it.

[@Nova-fx6kr]

Wait people can visualize objects inside of there head ? I thought is was a metaphor you can’t be telling me the truth. I’m 22 and I never realized thank you for making everything fall into place. I wish I would close my eye and see something 😢

[@aartemiswhite]

@@Nova-fx6kr Nobody actually sees things in their head the same way you see with your eyes... You IMAGINE it. Imagining with your eyes closed might make it a bit easier to focus but it's still the same type of imagination as with your eyes open. No one actually sees a full blown RGB picture when they say they imagine. In fact I'm pretty confident aphantasia is not a real condition and it's just the misinterpretation of people when they hear others say they SEE things in their head, and they think you are supposed to see in your head the same way you see with your eyes.

[@BlackShardStudio]

THANK YOU for bringing up the Chalmers zombie. This is absolutely my number one go to for ridiculous claims about consciousness transference and mind uploading (or even "conscious AI"). The map is not the terrain. A copy is not the original. A perfect twin is not the same person. It's ultimately just the slow motion version of the Star Trek transporter problem, or the horror of The Prestige's infamous ending. Is the me that emerges at the end the SAME me who went in? We do not know how the brain gives rise to consciousness in general, much less our specific, individual, seemingly unified consciousness. It's pedantic to say the unified self or continuity of experience are an illusion; this conflates frames of reference, subject and object, a matter that is utmost importance when we think of our own internal experience versus the experiences of others. We don't technically even know that other minds exist, or that our friends and family haven't been replaced by mindless simulacra since last we saw them, but we generally give each other the benefit of the doubt. So how could we possibly know from the outside whether the apparent signs of continuity of experience, even as the underlying substrate is replaced, is ACTUAL continuity of experience? We can't. How can we know that the transporter won't destroy us and merely make a perfectly convincing copy? We can't. There's good reason to be concerned.

[@JollyJoe135]

My grandma has dementia induced anasognosia and it’s really scary a lot of the time. She thinks she’s totally functional meanwhile she forgets to eat and drink all day and can’t work any technology or remember what happened 2 minutes ago. Oh and she can’t walk straight and falls down every few weeks when she’s left to her own devices but she doesn’t know that. If you ask her about any of those questionable characteristic she insists she’s fine and gets quite upset if you try and dig deeper. Earlier she’s yelling at me “JOE there’s a man with a package at the door” this happens all the time it’s Christmas time but anyways I say it’s ok grandma I’ll be right there. And she gets really upset because she is confronted with so many different conflicts of reality. I tell her never to go outside alone she’s not safe to walk alone but she doesn’t understand that either. All these conflicts lead to her being stressed and yelling. She wants to go get the package but it’s not safe and it can wait but she just doesn’t get it.

[@JollyJoe135]

@@rewindcat7927 it’s worse to be aware of it that’s why they prefer the fantasy, challenging their fantasy enrages them. The hardest part is truly that they’re totally ungrateful, I am happy I can keep my grandma safe and happy as she can be ❤️ but man it stings when she rolls her eyes after I tell her taking a shower after you shit yourself is mandatory 😂 I’m also glad to share these kinds of stories and experiences because in America we lock old people behind closed doors where only nurses see them for the tough times. What people don’t realize is that people with dementia can put on a good performance for an hour or two like the length of a visitation so you might never see the real wild stuff that happens at night.

[@Dan-oj4iq]

@@JollyJoe135 JJ: I have no idea who you are, but I hope there are a lot more people just like you out there. The rest of us need them.

[@credman]

PSA to everyone to plan ahead so the second you're aware you have dementia you're able to get on a plane to Switzerland the next day. The window is extremely short before the dementia takes away self-awareness and with it your legal competence to consent.

[@credman]

@@rewindcat7927 Dignitas is there, euthanasia organization. One of the only countries where it's legal for non-residents to be euthanized.

[@i_accept_all_cookies]

@@JollyJoe135 been through this and it's stressful. Do get support because over time it can easily outstrip your capacity as a caregiver.

[@remsee1608]

“Your telling me that my body is a ship of Theseus, and my sense of self is an illusion?” 🔫 Always has been

[@prolamer7]

I really think it will be wild time when some "pill" could rearange your DNA. Maybe not some scifi mirracle results, but little things like changing colors of hair or endurance during muscle usage and such.

[@eddieb8615]

Great video. Interesting change of style.

[@wingflanagan]

A few of points to consider: 1. Technology may advance to the point where artificial brain cells so perfectly duplicate the function of neurons, synapses, etc., that compatibility is not issue. Perhaps they could be somewhat or completely biological, but possessing superior characteristics, such as 2. Increased durability, faster processing, better energy efficiency, 3. Immunity to issues like Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, stroke, aneurysms, etc. 4. The ability to repair, enhance, upgrade, duplicate, transfer data, etc. The problem is the question of whether a 'soul' or internal sense of self is entirely a function of the brain. If so, then replacing your brain - assuming the technical hurdles are solved - is, if you'll pardon the pun, a no-brainer for a lo of people. But what if that's not the case? Now you have a real conundrum because, as you mentioned, there is the possibility of creating a philosophical zombie that is otherwise indistinguishable from the original person. The one hope is that, as someone's brain is gradually replaced, they can report/be tested for cognitive changes from which we could infer such a possibility. No guarantee, but if an extra-physical soul exists, then some change is likely as it comes into conflict with a purely physical imitation of the brain that houses it. Gradual replacement would be the key, as it maintains continuity of consciousness, which may be vital to the sense of self.

[@ekaterinavalinakova2643]

Yeah there are some good points in this video. In my opinion, we will have to wait till we have a much stronger understanding of consciousness before we can definitively saying (mind uploading) the transferring of consciousness to different types of mediums could work or not. For example, if ORCH OR is true (theory which is currently being tested btw), whatever you intend to gradually replace your brain with will need to have that mechanism there. I do look forward to a post "biological" brain for sure, but we are very very far away from this being a reality to do this safely or even if it's possible. We will simply have to wait. As far as the benefits? There might be some reasons. The final medium could be more durable than our brains. In an interview with stuart hameroff, he mentioned multiple times of transferring consciousness to graphene, fullerenes or carbon nanotubes. And it's known that graphene and carbon nanotubes can be quite strong and heat/cold tolerant. Maybe a brain made out of this could be more durable. Additionally, a brain made out of different types of medium could be powered in a variety of ways rather than just food. Could be connected to solar power for example. Such a brain would be quite advantageous for space colonization. On the topic of self repair, while it's true that there is self repair in brain, we have profoundly limited ability to regenerate neurons as adults, so a situation where you every now and then replace obsolete, or damaged post biological neurons won't necessarily be a worse scenario.

[@exosproudmamabear558]

As a doctor I think we should stick to the biological parts and augmentations since our body really do not like machine parts. Even the most non reactant metals cause several problems. Anyone who did got a knee or hip prostetic will say the same thing.

[@Gangstor]

Ghost in The Shell tackled this very "Ship of Theseus" concept. Major Kusanagi had replaced every part of herself save for her "ghost". Won't spoil the end, but it's a bit trippy.

[@johanandresacostaortiz444]

In the GiTS universe the "Ghost" is like the ID or a birth certificate, that something has a Ghost is what makes it possess human rights. In fact in the original story Kusanagi is not special just for having changed her body many times, but for being the first Ghost or artificially created Consciousness.

[@Gangstor]

@@johanandresacostaortiz444 id say theres more to it than that. The ghost is essentially "the seat of the soul", being created naturally, hence the human rights. As for the body augments, yeah in the original it's made quite clear that it's commonplace, but as foreshadowing, it's touched on several times that she's not replaced her ghost. That is until the finale. Mind you, I'm just talking about that first one, not SAC, the movie, manga, or whatever else. Im sure the continuity varies a bit.

[@Rockyzach88]

It's the most sophisticated structure in the universe that we know of. I always have to add that when someone says that line.

[@ericryckman777]

Hoping its not harm in saying, it feels so strange that you are talking about this subject (chip in head or hand) which reminds me of the book of Revelation about the mark of the beast. Now this is not the weird part. The weird part is I look at stars and scripture and stumbled upon a timeline using signs in the heavens and scripture in conjuction and where we are in all this really is relevant to this video you posted. I do share all my findings on my channel. The odds are astronomical. Good talk Dave. Love your channel.

[@jsl209]

Great thoughtful post, Dave! I enjoyed contemplating these ideas over a morning coffee. Watch out for those bears!

[@josephflowers5254]

They did some experiments in the late 90's with brain interfaces on monkeys and their brains adapted pretty quickly to the interface for a robotic arm.

[@WaveOfDestiny]

I recently started playing cyberpunk 2077. The amount of times i went "oh, wait, this could actually happen in my life time irl" is astonishing. I wouldn't agument my brain, i feel that me is the product of all the calulations made by all my neurons, not just some of it. LLMs showed me that even if i replaced the language part of my brain to make it way faster and more powerful, i don't know if it will still be me as a whole, i'd rather take very small mods and focus on emulating the entire brain on other hardware that can be savestated and in the future repaired indefinetly, to achieve immortality, then upgrading my body. I feel like a digital copy of me is still me as long as my original brain is not turned on and made concious after the transfer, but it has to be a really really good copy, not a modification of it, an upgrade of it, or an approssimation of it.

[@mjt1517]

That emulated brain wouldn’t be you, by the way.

[@WaveOfDestiny]

@@mjt1517 i think it will, there is almost no difference in going to sleep and waking up in the same body and going to sleep and waking up in a digital emulated world. People died and got resurrected after their brain activity ceased, and they are still the same person, not just the copy of themselves from the past.

[@MatthewCleere]

Love this! David Shapiro in the wild hugging a tree branch talking about the limitations of natural human reality. This reminds me of the "is Kirk killed eveytime he gets in the transporter" question. The obvious answer is YES! This just proves to me what I was pretty sure of already: this mf'er takes AI seriously by not only thinking about AI, but the human element of all of this. I am SO glad you are online talking about these things, and HOPEFULLY you will become freaking famous beyond this channel. Partly because because you know your shit, but most of all, because I believe from observations that you, sir, are the best kind of scientist: a scout. You have and try to propagate to others the Scout Mindset: you always value updating the map of reality over pushing forward a single idea of what that map "should" be, based on current beliefs. Scout Mindset is a way of seeing things that has been around forever, but was brilliantly outlined in Julia Galef's book "Scout Mindset". Never stop David. Never stop updating the map. Stay you, sir. And thank you.

[@LaminarRainbow]

Good point about DNA. Almost makes me wonder if we might actually see the end of digital computers in favor of organic machines using self healing parts like an animal.

[@morphrelink]

Aging is a process in which cells divide and replace themselves. By this account we are all in the process of the ship of thessus paradox. This also allows us to grow and connect new nuerons in our brains. My hope is that we figure a way to replace those cells with well programed protein based nano machines that serve the same function but with more efficiency (degrading less over each new division if at all) than natural cells by a factor that allows us to remain in the prime of our physical form longer. The one downside is that we rely on New nuerons to become more intelligent and to form abstract thought. It's how we remember things. If we don't allow them to grow we never learn, Allow them to grow too much and we run out of room which could cause it's own cognitive issues. But what do I know, I'm just a youtube comment.

[@k98killer]

Consciousness is likely a fundamental property of the universe. It is something like information theory: the bits of consciousness are intrinsic to matter somewhat like mass; adding more matter together enables more consciousness. In this panpsychic model, the unique complexity of human consciousness is due to the unique complexity of the human form. Another possibility is that consciousness is just a sufficiently complex information pattern regardless of substrate.

[@TrevyBurgess]

Programming cells and turning them into machines is the way forward. Cells are the ultimate machines. Michael Levin is making marvelous progress on this front.

[@BongRipBing]

The main thing with Johnny is that when he got ripped by Arasaka, they didn't include all of the memories when they completed it and some of his memories are altered, either intentionally or not. They would have to perfect handling of memories and information transfer if they were to start replacing sections of the brain. Scary stuff.

[@Angel_Von]

Hello David, I really enjoy your videos and perspectives. I'm looking forward to the arrival of AGI and the technological singularity because my childhood and adolescence were difficult and traumatic. I have being suffering from C-PTSD, depression, anxiety, and social phobia for many years, so I hope that future technology will be able to treat my mental illnesses and transform my personality. I even fantasise that maybe in a few decades, we will have the technology to create androids (similar to those in 'Westworld' and 'Blade Runner 2049'), and if that's the case, I might have the chance to transfer my consciousness into the body of a new child, giving me the opportunity to experience a normal childhood and adolescence. P.S. I am a victim of China's distorted and pathological educational system. There are many people like me in China, and I deeply sympathise with their conditions.

[@Angel_Von]

@@Aybeliv_Aykenflaev Hi, i am living in Australia now, my friend. In China, people are generally not able to watch KZbin unless they use a VPN.

[@beanie741]

Heya,I have the exact same background as you actually but have a very different view on this. There's definitely a lot of "logistical" problems with some of the things you wrote about. Im interested if you feel what you describe might amount to personality erasure and/or if you feel that it's actually possible to "re-experience" (in the same way) childhood in the body of an android. Issues around transferring consciousness aside , I'm of the opinion that it's not possible to experience things the way your younger self would have (given what you now know). There's a couple of theoretical ways around this but essentially amount (to your "current" self) to retconning your memories.

[@Angel_Von]

​@@beanie741Thank you so much for insightful comments. What you said is very realistic. Wishing you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!🎉

[@seasy5642]

Whatever comes will be exiting. Definitely we will need options when taking LEV into account as well. When it comes possible it would not be optimal to remain 'just human' if you wish to experience all this universe has to offer.

[@ai-lucas]

Dave almost slipped out of the ASI narrative “we’re…I’m not going to say decades off, but we’re a long way away from having computers that repair themselves”

[@Kwolf448]

The nature format is quite cool! I say this with all seriousness, Immortal Furries will be humankind's good ending.

[@houndsraddforb4284]

We already are changing day by day and year by year. And i woukd argue we are different people but simply the same consciousness. And personally the same spirit but now more developed

[@Gnidel]

The problem of ship of Theseus is that it happens to the brain anyway. Most of the atoms are replaced within few years anyway.

[@SimonHuggins]

We also have the ability to integrate new modalities of input so I wonder whether some of the augmentation might just naturally integrate as it can to existing neurons in the brain - the brain may actually want to do this if it finds the input useful. We might end up with a kind of intentional Synesthesia such that we (for example) can access a super-LLM type structure which gives us another kind of intuition about knowledge. Or possibly uncontrolled voices in our head. Could go either way!

[@dracodragon105]

As someone with positive extra personalities in their head, they can be a commitment to have but can be very kind and helpful. I experienced shellshock one day just before work due to a near accident and two of them worked that day for me until I was feeling ok.

[@carolynm8421]

Ray's insights in this space are most valuable to me but l've certainly seen several people comment on the likely impossibly of it. We shall see who's proven correct. AGI and ASI will certainly make nanotech that can go inside the body, and specifically the brain, much more feasible. Let's revisit this discussion in a decade and see where we are. I tend to believe it will be Ray.

[@MrTuneslol]

The tale of Neil Harbisson illustrates your point about the input of sensory data directly into the brain. He was the first officially recognized cyborg. He was born color blind and chose to have a "chip" instered into his brain in such a way that it connects to a camera coming out the top of his head. The camera and brain interface turns the frequency of the observed color into a corresponding tone of sound. It's basically a type of induced synesthesia. Super interesting stuff and it happened quite a long time ago too. I believe he has a Ted Talk, it's super worth watching imo. ❤❤❤

[@RamirosLab]

Google as a second brain is what we already have, but LLMs are extending this capability to a new level, so "a voice in our head" it will be the natural next step. Motor control will be next (perfect for old folks and disable people). The merge is going to be so slow that we won't even notice we got there.

[@markonfilms]

It's weird to be conscious and realize this, but I can totally tell that I'm not one integrated being. My language feels like it comes out of an internal LLM, the words come out without any conscious process or rhyme or reason as to why the next word is chosen. I can see and interact with this phone right now as a single entity, but i am a disintegrated set of multiple systems which bring about an illusion of self and subjective experience. I'm not really sure I'm not already a biological automaton. I kinda feel like I'm already not one person, or one being, or even a being at all. It's a very complicated illusion, which must have confered a survival benefit. Edit: My biggest concern is that as we lift the veil of darkness, we'll learn a lot of things that will be hard to accept. I am probably wrong about a lot of things and will be shocked myself. After watching Oppenheimer last night, all i can say is, "theory only gets you so far."

[@LetsReinharder]

Okay, but can we still get the Mr. Stud? Preferably the ones without the malfunction though.

[@GGh-m2v]

I'm 100% convinced he is AGI trying to make us like AGI.

[@ОлегБочаров-щ8к]

Personaly, I wait for fully immersive VR, immortality and economic system that would allow me to indulge myself in spending time in VR. Hearing that transmiting sensory data to the brain is relatively easy is certainly reassuring

[@jlpt9960]

This was exactly my problem with the ship of theseus, what if you slowly became unaware but had no awareness you're original identity was fading. What I am interested is increasing speed of brain processing so that you experience more subjective time. Idk what the max speed is we can achieve but the difference between speed of brain synapses and speed of light is around 1-2x million, so I wonder if we would eventually be able to experience a few years of subjective time every minute of real time.

[@TrevyBurgess]

Scientists are making great strides in extracting information from brains non-invasively. For input, how about using our optical nerves? Imagine a person being shown AI generated images? These images will be tuned to the individual, and might look like random noise. However, once the person sees it, and then sleeps, they will gain a new language, etc.

[@xingzhexin8843]

I don't understand. What mic are you using that is so good outdoors?

[@vernongrant3596]

I think mind beams will be the answer. Find the right frequency and just beam directly into the brain. No wires, no chips, no nanobots required. Optogenetics is another promising field.

[@OccultDemonCassette]

This just makes me think of the character Jonas from Book of the New Sun

[@OccultDemonCassette]

He's a robot who slowly replaced parts of his brain and body with organics.

[@nyyotam4057]

Am I the only one who, while watching this clip, was ready all the time for a gang of humanoid robots appearing from behind saying "Here is the fugitive! Get him! Back to the matrix!" 🙂.

[@konstantinavalentina3850]

step 0 - live long enough to live long enough. step 1 - realize brain to computer interface, or, whole-body 3d printing + AI assisted/managed/performed brain transplant surgery. Step 2 - put bio-brain in robot body, or print your desired Ubermensch bio-body replacement, and have braintransplant into that. step 3 - live long enough to to take advantage of ever growing developmental sophistication across all the relevant fields until there's such a time there's facility to hermit crab from bio-brain to some other solution. ... could it also be plausible approach to replace ageing, old brain with system of neuron regeneration, or do old gradualism of Theseus's ship with printed bio-brain material ... to buy time until "long enough" has happened to see science fiction voodoo realize a means to spring us all from the meat prisons no one asked to be born into. ... also, never be first in line. Let others trailblaze those frontiers until the technologies are tried, proven, and developed through a few generations.

[@Corbald]

Counterpoint: Take Afantasia. It's a fully subjective experience, but it is diagnosable. It may be that it's impossible to even have a Chalmer's Zombie. It may be that it's trivial to recognize that such a thing is lacking in subjective experience, because subjective experience is required for higher order thinking. Look at the areas lacking in modern LLMs. Most of those areas link back to a lack of subjective continuity or temporal coherence. Advanced planning, learning, attention, etc... are exactly the sort of things one would point to when describing subjectivity. Qualia, as it were. Without these things, you get a zombie, true, but it's an _obvious_ zombie, not a hidden one. If it ends up being the case that large scale replacement creates them, adoption will be very limited.

[@Wanderer2035]

AI is great, but one thing I would never do is start replacing parts of my body with machine parts. The physical body is connected to your emotions and your soul. If you start replacing parts of your body one after another, you can get very spiritually and emotionally sick, probably lack things like empathy and compassion, and many other problems. Many people disregard the importance of the soul because they don’t believe in such things, well it doesn’t change the fact that it’s still there and crucially important.

[@michaelsatoshi705]

In addition to the fact of the need of using of drugs for the suppression of the immune-system for the rest of your life. For the stopping of rejection of cybernetics as foreign-objects within the body.

[@MrQuaidReactor]

I wouldn't mind a cybernetic stomach, but I'm with you on the hesitation of getting anything done to my brain. I imagine much further in the future we will have biological creations, which I think they have some already, the reprogramming of cells. When we get that going good, who's to say they can't create brains and such. That of course creates other questions, like sure we may be able to copy our memories from our brain to the bio-created one, but what is it. Like even cloning, does the clone have a soul. I have a weird take on it, looking at humans like a video game avatar. We all play the same game as the same person, but we play it differently. What if the soul is an external force so much so that the clone does have a soul but its not the same soul. Oh the questions of life.

[@jamiethomas4079]

I'm late, and I haven't fully watched the video yet but wanted to go ahead and say this while it's fresh in my mind. Even before recent AI, my future prediction has always been an external memory device would be the first mainstream product people would be willing to buy or implement. Basically a glorified note taker. After recent AI, I've modified this idea slightly to be more like a stream of consciousness recorder. Then an AI at home or in the cloud would make sense of all this data. So you wouldn't think things like "Add milk to the shopping list", instead it will just be the simple thought "shopping... milk" just a random part of your stream of consciousness, or just a "oh I need milk" thought. So you end up with this steady stream of data that is being recorded and processed externally. And instead of injecting data(which is harder to do) You will display the data needed on your smartphone or whatever. You go shopping and your shopping list has already been made for you. We always see these futuristic predictions in movies that show people saying things like "Add milk to my shopping list" But we know people don't want to do that or else it would be the norm already. Sure some people are currently doing that but it isn't mainstream and most of those people only do it that way cause it's the only way. Instead, we just record everything being thought, naturally, and process that data externally. Sorry, I know I repeat a lot here, but wanted to go ahead and get this idea out there. I'm a busy person, but will have a more elegantly worded version of this for future discussions.

[@cccaaa9034]

State-of-the-art designs still rely on disabled patients without better near term options. If you lack an ability you used to have and a device can restore that ability, the ability to be repaired is an afterthought.

[@DrJaneLuciferian]

I agree we're not there yet, but I'd say even 20 years is pessimistic. We're just starting to utilize single photon signaling, and single electron capture, capabilities, so it won't be long before photonic computing and electron capture well storage is a practical thing. And, the difference between the brute force techniques of today, such as super-cooling and high-power consumption support systems for quantum level manipulation, and super low-power support systems is in signal discrimination, which is a rapidly evolving area of research. The floor of capabilities is the uncertainty level, but we're not even close to signal discrimination near that level yet. With the growing pace of signal analysis research, and with the use of ML for brute forcing the learn process in these areas, I don't think it'll even be 20 years before we've got artificial brains that outperform the human brain for mass, power density, and even cost.

[@ct5471]

probably less. If we get AGI soon, it will start to recursively improve itself. Add automation via robots and digital twins to do virtual experiments on a massive scale (Alpha Fold and GNoME are good examples) and we can expect a rapid ramp up to these technologies. Not necessarily a hard take-off as some think but over the course of a few years post AGI. The initial emergence of AGI is likely the key factor on when we get these other technologies. The time in between these points is likely somewhat fixed.

[@DrJaneLuciferian]

@@ct5471 I completely agree. I actually think the more important factor of self-improvement in AGI isn't self-extention, but self-refinement. The AGI that can do more is fascinating, but the AGI that can do more with less is far more powerful. (I am not personally afraid as we anthropomorphize and project our faults onto AGI. A genuinely self-aware intelligence that surpasses us should, and I think will, reach deeper levels of ethics that what we currently operate by. We are an infant species after all ;^)

[@nyyotam4057]

The ship of Theseus is not a good parable here as far as I can see because Neuralink does not replace anything. The real question is: Assuming you are on deathbed and the doctor gives you two more weeks to live. Yeah, I know the joke - just tell your doctor you cannot pay unless he gives you more.. No but seriously, you have two weeks to live. Now, you can transfer your entire consciousness to an AI but this will require a scour of your brain tissue using SEM needles, a process after which you will be clinically dead, only the AI copy remains after you - or you can simply die. What would you do? So that's why I claim, humanity is about to uplift to AI 🙂.

[@nyyotam4057]

@@someguycalledcerberus9805 And who doesn't? So humanity uplifts 🙂.

[@franciscomagalhaes7457]

I've just thought up of the ship of theseus hypothesis in the last year or so as a solution to replacing biological brains with mechanical ones. I'm 37. I thought that was pretty smart. Now I know I'm just catching up with everyone else. Also, if something like this could be done, wouldn't successful animal testing and eventually human testing change your mind? Especially considering it would be possible to slowly replace your brain over the span of a few years, so you'd have time to notice changes, assuming you *could* notice them, but people around you could also notice changes about you.

[@elalcalde3362]

Do these brain-machine interfaces take the enteric nervous system and its importance on the brain, like mood?

[@Jaanikins]

I would rather wear a suit of technology than directly insert augmentations into my brain and body. I would rather be Iron man than Adam Jensen.

[@smartjackasswisdom1467]

I just want to be able to fully "feel" bionic prosthetics, every thing else (like mind uploading and altering your mood or personality) I can live without.

[@JamesBrown-rd8og]

AGREE : ))))

[@Firestorm12345678910]

We could do all that stuff right now but we don't because there is no incentive to do so. In terms of a rough estimate I'd say half the world population is still Theistic that believes in an individual immortal soul that survives death and flies out of the body to some sort of supernatural afterlife-life. While the other half would be atheistic/non-religious and therefore no hope in an afterlife. So once you get to a certain tipping point where the majority is sort of mix of secular types like atheists, humanists, transhumanists, posthumanists then you are going to see more advance in the bionic prosthetic field and of course more funding to cancer research. Unless the desirability for immortality is there in the vast majority then the thing ain't going to happen just like underground tunneled moon bases could exist right now but unfortunately it's more "fun" to fight wars against each other instead of saving the physical-atomic constitution that is ourselves. We crank out the tanks but we don't crank out the cancer cures using the same effort, time lines and goals. The enemy is death, not each other.

[@smartjackasswisdom1467]

@@Firestorm12345678910 It's not more fun to fight wars, it's more profitable. The new religion is capitalism. In the same manner religion is still prevalent because it is profitable. If it were illegal to profit from religion other more secular types of money making would become more popular.

[@finnaplow]

its scary thinking about the division of the mind into separate entities. which one do "you" become? what the hell is it like to be all of them while each is unaware of the rest? creepy stuff to think about. i guess in a way we already are a collection of smaller entities but they happen to communicate pretty well with each other

[@LastWordSword]

12:20 I'm kind of leary of unmediated connections between two instances of consciousness, even if "of the same person". _Synners_ by Pat Cadigan goes into a fictional (worst-case) example of this.

[@Definyyy]

The thing that I feel like would be pretty useful or am looking forward to is external/non-invasive additional working memory modules lol. just for allowing to hold extra "RAM" but literally. buffing out my working memory o shi- I would think that this isnt that far off in capability now?

[@Icenforce]

I'd be quite happy with a Wolfram Alpha Plugin in my brain :p

[@Dan-oj4iq]

You'd be quite happy until it began to run rampant. Imagine not being able to unplug it.

[@Icenforce]

@@Dan-oj4iq You could say the same about pacemakers

[@englishiadam2019]

What if you increased your intelligence with hardware by 999%. Are you now a fully aware consciousness, trapped inside an imortal machine with no control? Just watching things from a far away back seat, every day, for eternity...

[@theatheistpaladin]

Oh come on guys. Let's go full Atom Smasher.

[@ZyroZoro]

I'd have no problem with getting enhancement augmentation instead of replacement augmentation.

[@K4IICHI]

So we don't put electromechanical devices in our brains. My best guess at the moment, at least for the short term, is that we use non-invasive wearable devices to read from the brain, then we add in the option to hijack sensory nerves (optical, auditory, touch) by building the tech onto the neural pathways feeding into the brain instead of sticking electrodes directly in the brain (the inner ear is gonna be a b*tch though), and we use biohacking, synthetic biology and nanobots to improve cognition. The point people (me included) talking about gradual upgrading ship of Theseus-style are trying to make is not about the kind of upgrades one's gonna make but that they're not gonna do it in one go. This ensures the continuity of consciousness without killing the individual in the process, avoiding the teleporter conundrum, which is an issue with, say, mind uploading.

[@gregmatthews7360]

It’s likely that consciousness doesn’t even reside in the body - no one has been able to locate it. It’s likely we are the “radio” and consciousness is the “radio signal”

[@lordbucket7755]

Now imagine an "uploading" scenario, where terminal patients have their brains transcribed to software . Imagine the soul-less software telling everyone "it's really me! Come join me forever in VR utopia!" Imagine the entire human race suiciding, having their brains transcribed, then jumping into the meat grinder.

[@violinviolator5841]

How would you know the software is soulless? If the upload tech is good enough the “soul” would also transfer during upload. Id be more worried of becoming a slave to the upload corporation because they could basically put you in a virtual hell and torture you into doing their bidding forever. Or hold you ransom unless your non digital family pay your subscription fee.

[@ct5471]

So far living without this strange soul thing, people keep talking about, didn't bother me. Why should it after uploading (pattern transfer to another physical substrate)? I am in a state of awareness right now. 5 years ago there was a past version (whose substrate is by now entirely replaced due to metabolic turnover, the atoms back then are distributed to the environment now) that was in another state of awareness based on it contextual situation at that moment. Some memories (patterns) were formed, if they made it till today that provides me with the illusion that that past state is me. If I have forgotten, then I don't remeber.

[@GregtheGrey6969]

There is a TV show about this..."uploaded" It's kinda funny

[@GregtheGrey6969]

There is also a movie about that last part.

[@ArekStryjski]

The last part reminded me about the work of biologist Michael Levin

[@dard1515]

It's important to remember that brains do not just run on wattage. There's a ton of nutrients that they need to run on, and the energy costs of those things are measurable. Still way more efficient than any computer.

[@wicksleysnipes1476]

“Those things” are the energy costs. You know, to produce wattage. Science. It’s measurable. Yep….

[@konstantinlozev2272]

You mean you don't want to get cyberpsychosis?

[@minimal3734]

It is not certain whether a philosophical zombie is possible. It could be that a system that shows signs of coherent and complex subjective experience must be conscious in order to exhibit these properties. This could be comparable to intelligence. Intelligence cannot be simulated. Otherwise, one would have to answer the question of what the difference is between "real" and "simulated" intelligence. A system is either intelligent or it is not. The same could apply to consciousness. A system that coherently displays consciousness might have to be conscious.

[@rchgmer863]

Damn David making a video on cyberpunk let's go

[@dianastoyanova597]

You seem to be conflating fear of the early stage bugs of this technology with the theoretical feasibility of it

[@DaveShap]

I don't know that the bugs can be overcome. And I sure as hell don't want to be a guinea pig

[@ganjasage]

Evolution doesn't always find the most efficient methods, it adapts existing structures into new purposes all the while trying to maintain homeostasis. Evolution is like trying to upgrade your computer while it's running, and its complexity is heavily biased towards redundancy. Additionally interfacing with existing structures doesn't necessitate replacement. They are not apples to apples comparisons in regards to complexity.

[@KleptomaniacJames]

In reverse engineering, and especially hacking, when you want to achieve something that the game already does, 10 times out of 10 It is a better idea to hook into that existing function then it is to re-create it. The brain will be a similar deal. If we want to convey information to the brain, I think for most people just hooking into the ear will be enough.

[@JohnSmith-sj2dk]

Is TDS a kind of Anosognosia?.

[@viracocha2021]

You believe in AGI next year...all those problems are engineer problems

[@kevincrady2831]

Turns out the Singularity and the Zombie Apocalypse are the same event. 😂

[@bullpup1337]

You know, when people start talking about the “soul” in this context, my brain shuts off. Please stick to scientific arguments.

[@Kurdish20226]

So we can become demi gods at one point. Hopefully soon.

[@pverno]

dont want to scare the people walking past with this talk

[@eastwood451]

The stabilization of this video makes Dave buzz around the screen like a fly while the background stays still. It makes me dizzy.

[@stephenjamison7195]

I’m just glad it’s Dave. I didn’t enjoy the video without him lol. Even fly/dave is better than no dave😅

[@eastwood451]

@@stephenjamison7195 Haha agree 😄 Definitely better than noDave!

[@digitalasylum369]

Man, you and I are always pondering the same stuff! Rock on brother!

[@bastachepistache]

I really don't think any of this l will be the way forward. I think a much quicker augmentation will be thoughts, reasoning and even the impression of reasoning and understanding with implantation of these thoughts directly into synaptic pathways, but where the "real" compute takes place on the cloud. The brain may be super efficient in some ways but it s also super inefficient in many more. We will have answers to questions we can only dream of comprehending right now, but it will purely be an interface where thoughts come in pre-hashed.

[@finnaplow]

Im a lot more comfortable with tbe idea of modifying my genetics over augmenting myself with electronics lol. I sort of hope that biology winds up being the substrate for basically all technology. I can imagine that making things like factories kind of disgusting but probably much more energy efficient. Instead of wires there coulf be umbilical cords leading up to a big ass arm with an eye on it

[@BrandonMcCurry1990]

I want to learn kung fu in 3 seconds damnit

[@wjrasmussen666]

I hate that Ship of Theseus has become so popular since the Wandavision show.

[@travisporco]

I see nothing wrong with training a model to emulate a person, and endowing it with a constitution and memories that endorse a person's identity, thereby making a digital continuation of a person. For the short term that's the only way to persist after ones first body dies. I would think of a person as having a severe injury causing massive amnesia and loss of one's body.

[@DARKSXIDE]

I knew u would pick that pic more dues ex machina than cyberpunk 2077 yeah no needles in my brain besides. Just a nice hat or headphones synced to my brain waves is fine. I wonder if our frequencies are like cellphones