Why isn't Christianity a Doomsday Cult?

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If Jesus was an apocalyptic prophet, then why isn't mainstream, modern Christianity an apocalyptic religion? Was the move away from apocalypticism deliberate, and are modern doomsday preachers actually closer to preaching Jesus' message than other churches?
Listen to hear Megan ask Bart:
-Jesus’ apocalypticism isn’t something that modern churches talk about an awful lot How soon after Jesus’ death do we start to see this movement away from his more overt apocalyptic teachings?
-Do we see a shift away in Paul’s own writings, and do we see the same changes in the canonical gospels?
-With the canonical gospels that are trying to preserve Jesus’ own words, do we see the author trying to shade or change the apocalyptic ideas?
-In the later, non-canonical gospels, do we see the same shift away from the apocalyptic message?
-Were they replaced with other themes or teachings, or were they simply phased out?
-Do we see any heretical groups that stick with apocalypticism after the proto-orthodox tradition moved away from it?
-One of our early podcast episodes was on modern end of the world prophecies; are these doomsday writers and preachers actually mimicking Jesus’ own ministry more closely than more mainstream churches that stick with emphasizing care for your fellow human?
-In some modern settings you see people trying to bring about the apocalypse through their own actions; is this a purely a modern reaction to Jesus’ teachings, or do you see similar behaviour in early Christianity too?
-You mentioned that deapoclayptisation was kind of a necessity to deal with the fact that the world didn’t end when it was supposed to. Why do you think this modern shift back towards apocalypticism happened?

[@McbrideStudios]

It isn't? I know a lot of Christians who didn't get the memo.

[@belialord]

Jehovah's witnesses for instance

[@jayasuryangoral-maanyan3901]

@@lionelradionoise english protestantism (And by extension american) has a lot of apocalyptic focus

[@tophers3756]

The video acknowledges almost at the very beginning that apocalypticism never fully vanished.

[@daodejing81]

I agree. Apparently, they didn't get many memos.

[@edwardtalbot5556]

Every Christian loony, self proclaimed profit, are all talking about Israel and jesus coming soon because of the attacks !! All hype no history

[@user-fq4yz5ek3r]

The worst, most dangerous element of apocalyptic thinking is that all plans and efforts for future generations are abandoned. Hoping for a 'new Earth' leads to a self-fulfilling prophecy state of mind which is utterly unhelpful if you're planning a future for Humanity.

[@MiguelCisnerosSaucedo]

Apocalyptic thinking can, in some cases, lead to proactive measures to prevent or mitigate catastrophic events. For example, concerns about climate change and its potential apocalyptic consequences have spurred global movements and policies aimed at reducing emissions and protecting the environment. So you are mistaken.

[@HkFinn83]

@@MiguelCisnerosSaucedolittle from column A, little from column B?

[@dukeon]

@@MiguelCisnerosSaucedo I think the question is specifically about Christian apocalypticism. Nice try though.

[@Kholdaimon]

@@MiguelCisnerosSaucedoNo, the Christians that actually believe in the Apocalypse and subsequent Rapture do not do anything to stop climate change or anything else affecting our world. The global movements and policies aren't coming from them or Apocalyptic thinking, they are coming from people that realize that there is going to be a lot of suffering if we do not change things around. Live will survive, humanity will survive, but there is going to be worldwide problems due to famines, wars caused by disputes over territory that is still arable, migration, etc, etc. Recognizing that has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with apocalyptic thinking...

[@MiguelCisnerosSaucedo]

@@dukeon "Apocalyptic thinking can sometimes lead to proactive measures to prevent or mitigate catastrophic events". This applies to that as well.

[@oliverbrownlow5615]

It never fails to astonish me that some religious people think they can crap up the earth as much as they like, expecting that when Jesus comes back he will clean up their mess like a divine janitor. Have they never read the parable of the talents?

[@Infrared1967]

Love this!

[@janicehussock7735]

Janitors. You frame it well ❤

[@Kenneth-ts7bp]

Why do atheists crap up the world?

[@markfaites]

i mean, christians are cultists and they are the reason of the world pollution and overall our planet falling apart.

[@rebeccaholcombe9043]

It's a problem with thinking or rather, not thinking, and not being broad enough in their reading and speaking. Not making conections between baisic tenants. If the earth is the Lord's, why are you trashing his stuff?

[@apostink]

I keep wondering how a group that actively attempted fulfillment of end of the world prophecies isn’t a cult, but in the end I figure the answer is "It's not a doomsday religion, it's a doomsday relationship"

[@KaiHenningsen]

I'm afraid it's simply "if enough people are doing it, it can't be a cult".

[@dukeon]

Anna, do you mean as in a relationship with Jesus? I’m just trying to understand your comment, not being confrontational or anything.

[@goldholder8131]

@@dukeon No, she just means that's Christianity is a self-fulfilling prophecy to pacify people until the bad guys have total control to start doomsday itself. Kind of like you're in a relationship with someone who shares a common goal and passion, but it also happens to be a religion based world government.

[@josephpostma1787]

​@@dukeon Yes, many Christians call their religion a relationship (with Jesus and his pseudo-identical friends (the trinity)).

[@timandmonica]

Wittiest comment I've seen in a long time, had me laughing out loud!

[@Lleanlleawrg]

I think it absolutely is a doomsday cult. It started out as one and I think for the most part it still is. It might not be the main focus anymore for every denomination, but it is there.

[@FarmingWithYahweh]

It definitely started out that way, but modern Christians by and large don't really believe he is coming soon. If they did they would do what they did in Acts 4, where they sold all their belongings because the end of all things was at hand.

[@beans3977]

​​@@FarmingWithYahweh Could have fooled me. If I had a dollar for every Christian that said "It's a sign of the end times" or "Repent soon. Time's is running out". I'd be pretty darn rich

[@Sxcheschka]

I knew a guy who said that he wants to start a farm behind his house, in an actual neighborhood in a city, but he's waiting for when the apocalypse begins, and he wants to get a cow, and I'm over here like, there is no fucking room, and you have never raised a cow. This is going to fail badly. His reasoning on why he is waiting, is because the government will be too occupied with WW3 or whatever to worry about him having a cow.

[@travestisocialista9005]

​@@beans3977 among pretty much all Christians that I knew since I was a child, that kind of saying was considered crazyness. However, I'm from Brazil and was raised as Catholic.

[@Lleanlleawrg]

@@FarmingWithYahweh There's lots of people that still think this way, particularly many protestant branches think so. Events like what you describe have happened in the not so remote past, and it will happen again. Last big craze about this stuff was Harold Camping I guess, but even his crowd are just a small sample. Still, it's a thing.

[@dancahill9585]

So, basically, if you are in a fundamentalist Christian Church, you might be in a doomsday cult, and you might be getting scammed by your pastor/cult leader. If he is getting tithes and donations to help in the end of days, run, don't walk, to the exits.

[@grumpy9478]

too late! they're already thoroughly bought-in, throwing naive faith after bad.

[@sanmcnellis94]

Not might. Scammed 100%.

[@Disappointed739]

No, not really. It is quite a bit more nuanced. Fundamentalism allows for but does not require a doomsday approach, but more carefully defined, it is really a group that adheres to basically three things: The inerrancy of the Scriptures, a 6 24 hour day creation, and the literal rising from the dead of Jesus. it is the inerrancy argument that leads to the doomsday approach, and yes, it often appears, but in the vast majority it is just another teaching and they move on to other things. But be careful? Oh yes, and it can easily lead to a cult-like situation.

[@janicehussock7735]

I was as a Jehovah Witness, forced by family. Always had doubts, but defaulted to fear, terror, trauma. After my escape and college NT, I get annoyed with Anglicans who only see The Good Shepherd. But cults overly focus on Revelation. We need the prudent balance.

[@dancahill9585]

@@janicehussock7735 I think some point, about 2000 years after "the time is near" was written in revelation, people would realize it isn't a prediction for thousands of years after The Revelation of John was written. Anyone who looks at revelation coming true in their lifetime is pretty much certifiable.

[@3up3rn0va]

I have been a Christian all my life and this is is super interesting! I know several people in the faith who still believe that “the end of the world” is coming and an afterlife and it kind of stresses me out. I realized that I have been faking my faith for a while now. I have been deconstructing my faith. The things that Christians say and keep saying just make me cringe especially about “the end” if Jesus really did come back. He’d probably look at modern day Christians and be like “Wtf no this is not what I had in mind” 😂 I have been looking at arguments from all sides now it has been quite the journey. I 100% believe Christianity is a doomsday cult. These guys are actually insane.. I am trying to get out of it.

[@ginafrancis4950]

Glad you were willing to question your Christian indoctrination and start thinking critically. I can only hope there are millions more like you doing the same. I was raised in Mormonism (been out a good while) and right now there is a huge doomsday prepper movement happening in the faith. Crazy stuff. Wishing you all the best moving on and away from all religious indoctrination.

[@trilithon108]

Jehovah Witnesses always promote 'end times,' but after naming exact dates 1800s, 1914, 1918, 1925, 1975 its all a little silly at this point, so now they've been talking up 'patience' and no dates. Good one JWs, not so specific and gets you off the hook 😮😢

[@Disappointed739]

If you haven't read Karen Armstrong's _Battle for God: The History of Fundmentalism in Chrisianity, Judeism, and the Muslim Faith_ or some such title, I recomment you do. It was a wild eye-opener for me. When it first came out I literally could not put it down, and read it streight through in three days. It lays out the history of 18th, 19th, and 20th century fundamentalism in all three faiths, and in particular the clash between conservative Christianity and modernity, scientific knowledge and mindset, and the shifting view of the individual as a free agent. Dr. Ehrman ran through an overview in this podcast, but the detailed explanation is found in Armstrong's masterful survey.

[@janicehussock7735]

Thank you for the recommendation

[@pinverarity]

There’s a book entitled The Creationists, by historian Ronald Numbers, that dives into the history of American creationist thinking. The counterintuitive conclusion he reaches is that the creationists have gotten steadily more extreme: as science advances further & further, they get more & more extreme. Great book.

[@AbdulKhader-786]

the book is flawed because she ignores “revivalist” or “fundamentalist” tendencies and movements that have risen in each of the 3 much before the modern age

[@zogwort1522]

"Are y'all with the cult?" "We're not a cult, we're an organization that promotes love an-" "Yeah this is it."

[@Acewarren]

Unfortunately it mostly is a cult striving for an apocalypse from my view. Jesus talks about it, Paul talks about it, and the entire New Testament is capped by the book of Revelation. Not to mention my parents, and most NC and southern Christians I live around, are obsessed with Revelation and the coming apocalypse. It’s almost every sermon in these churches are how modern events are signs of the end. It may have not been the objective of Jesus’ teaching, but from my observations it is unfortunately a major focus for this cult.

[@daodejing81]

You're absolutely correct. Christianity is a cult, pure theology, totally opposing Scripture. Christian theology depends on things outside of oneself, books, savior, preacher, pastor, priest, even heaven and hell are conceptualized as physical, even God is distant, out there. Moreover, Christianity asserts that we human beings are hopelessly sinful. Scripture points out that God saw His creation and said, it is good. Additionally, Ecclesiastes says that we are born upright. Christianity is diametrically opposed to Scripture in numerous ways. Moreover, Christianity supports slavery, bigotry, and they hide behind the skirt of religion. Christianity is pollution to the soul. Very obvious to me, who thoughtfully left religion in 1980, at 20. In a word, Christians, like most religious people, are misguided, ignorant of truth. Scripture points WITHIN. Meditation leads to awareness, and it is in awareness that we evolve spiritually. The Gnostics really understood, that the earnest seeker looks within, knows himself, and in knowing himself, all is known. This wisdom is ubiquitous in all Scripture, from Daoism to Buddhism to Hinduism to Scripture of the Abrahamic religions. Woefully, Christianity does not honor this wisdom. Christianity uses its theology to support a narrative, an agenda. Every religious member represents $$$$$$ and political power, votes. It is motivated by self-interest ----- not love, compassion and connectedness.

[@goldholder8131]

You sound like a smart guy. Ever heard of Know More News with Adam Green?

[@Acewarren]

@@goldholder8131 thanks! But I haven’t heard of that actually.

[@ericdiaz1719]

Im from South Carolina and there are ppl that literally go to downtown and preach this stuff and I always thought it felt super forced and cultish if that makes sense.

[@Acewarren]

@@ericdiaz1719 Yeah it is forced for sure! And honestly I sympathize a bit with them because there is a good chance that THEY were preached at or yelled at about the dangers and importance of the coming apocalypse. I’m just grateful that my wife and I got out when we did.

[@user-fr3hg3vx3t]

I think Churches today do talk about this. In the Church I grew up in, I remember them saying "If Jesus comes back tonight will you be ready?"

[@andrewsuryali8540]

All churches do that. However, Jesus coming back isn't necessarily intended to be apocalyptic the way actual apocalypticists think. For example, in the Catholic Church, the concept of Jesus coming back is more akin to Santa coming to town. It's basically asking whether you've been good Catholic boys and girls because if you haven't Jesus might drop you straight down to hell. Also, it's more tied to the resurrection of the dead than the end of the world. Yes, when you think about it, it still means the end of the world, but they make sure to keep that part of it quiet.

[@MissMentats]

I feel like the Bible is the least effective means of communicating a concise message to people that has ever existed… apart from maybe the voynitch manuscript

[@KaiHenningsen]

Worse. At least with Voynitch, we know we haven't a clue.

[@dukeon]

😂

[@HkFinn83]

Interpretive dance is difficult to find meaning in I find

[@MissMentats]

@@HkFinn83 well I’ve seen Sias chandelier video and can literally do a beat by beat breakdown of the story being told. And at least the voynitch manuscript has pictures

[@goldholder8131]

That's how it was designed to be.

[@jwood6902]

Very timely conversation as the Evangelicals get all giddy over this latest round of chaos in Gaza right now. They're all animals.

[@dukeon]

Agree!

[@russellmiles2861]

right, so Western Asia is more peaceful, safer and prosperous than any time in modern history. And that is a sign of a second coming?

[@jwood6902]

@@russellmiles2861 The Evangelicals don't give a fuck about Western Asia. Or any other place that isn't Israel for that matter. The state of Isreal is essential to their much anticipated doomsday prophecy bloodbath. #psychopaths

[@jamesschroder5944]

The book of Revelations should not have made the cut in the New Testament. The only reason the Bishops allowed it was that they wanted a hammer to hang over the parishioners heads. Many people believe that the apostle John and John of Patmos were the same person when, in fact, they lived hundreds apart. Personally, I view the writings of John of Patmos just the rantings of a old mentally ill man from along time ago. The apocalypse may in fact come, but it will be done by warring countries using weapons of mass destruction.

[@dukeon]

Agreed. It’s totally out of left field. Might as well tack on The Myth of Sisyphus or a Philip K Dick story.

[@Danstheman1357]

over the last year i wanted to take my faith i grew up in seriously. So I did alot of reading in the bible, took it very serious as i could. when i got around to reading revelation i thought “ what the fuck am i reading?” ive been deconstructing since. To be honest most of the more moderate christians I know havnt actually read the bible much. and the ones i do know are REALLY weird.

[@susiepittman601]

It is. Also, thank you.

[@eddy67]

IMO the thought that the "end is coming" is merely the feeling of the ticking clock. It is the sense of your own mortality. The world IS ending, but for you and you alone. In reality the earth keeps spinning with or without you.

[@laurencepeterson8466]

When modern Fundamentalists "pick a date" for the end of the world, I always think that it is never the same day across the entire globe...it is always tomorrow somewhere in the East compared to Western locations.

[@grumpy9478]

& what a Great Disappointment it always is.

[@russellmiles2861]

Oh, the 'pick a date' a date thing is just a fund-raising technique ... haven't you heard "sale must end soon' ... this is a very effective sale pitch.

[@rickn8or]

Because when all the apocalypse talk started, everything happened in/around Jerusalem or Rome, and travel was so slow as to render concepts of time zones ludicrous. "It's noon here, so it must be noon everywhere."

[@user-om2os5yr6i]

What nobody tells you is the rapture and eschaton happened millennia ago; the 144,000 righteous were lifted bodily to heaven, and our ancestors are who were left behind. They didn't notice because there was a plague on at the time.

[@ginafrancis4950]

@@AnthoniePerez-xe4ih😂

[@NimWithRandomNumbers]

“This group called the Plymouth Brethren…” every time a scholar mentions the group I came from I get downright giddy. Technically my church was “non denominational” but that was the outward facing description, under the veil it was Brethren. Because of this obfuscation I have developed a burning curiosity about the Brethren. Sadly, other than “Exporting the Rapture” by Donald H Akenson I haven’t been able to find any accessible books about them.

[@xwing2417]

Plymouth brethren is the tradition I was raised in, with some variations. There's this whole thing with disponsational charts.

[@NimWithRandomNumbers]

@@xwing2417 I remember those!

[@davegold]

My mother was evacuated as a child during the second world war to a family a Plymouth Brethren. They refused to work on the sabbath, to the point where my mother had to open up and light the candles in the chapel for the family to worship. They had no modern devices like a radio, which was very hard on my mother who had no news of war (her brother was serving in the air force).

[@jimwarrong]

One of my saddest memories. A friend who had long since left the Brethren was talking with me on a street corner in Ballarat. In the distance there was an older woman. He pointed to her and said ' that'd be my mother'. Because he'd left the religion she and the rest of the family had cut him off entirely.

[@BethDiane]

There's a Wikipedia article about them with a long list of sources at the bottom.

[@Arven8]

Thank you for continuing to talk about apocalypticism. I know you may be tired of the subject, but I find it fascinating, and I'm sure others do, too. It sheds an entirely different light on Jesus than what mainstream, popular Christianity teaches. It comes as a revelation, no pun intended. It makes a lot of what Jesus said and did more understandable. Thanks again for a great podcast.

[@pwgotravelpw2146]

“Thief in the Night” wow! That’s a blast from the past. I had to giggle when you mentioned that.

[@evelynmoyer9069]

Our small-town, fundamentalist, church still is a doomsday cult. 😔

[@dennishubbs1869]

It should be painfully obvious that this whole issue like everything in the Bible is a human construct.

[@ginafrancis4950]

A MAN made construct to be precise. All three Abrahamic religions patriarchal to the core. Mormonism as well.

[@misterprogressive8730]

Dear professor ehrman. I would like to thank you for your hard work, inspiring presentations as well as passionate debates. Today i saw one of your debate with kyle butt and what you said "suffering is a complex problem, which deserves a complex explaination". I have learned so much from your podcasts and books about civilization and the was society works. I pray that you will have much health and energy to continue your works and may you find happiness and fulfillment in everyrhing that you do, plan, and have acomplished. Best wishes from germany.

[@markadams7046]

Some apologist probably interpreted what Ehrman wrote as saying that the there were imposter Apostles, and the chatbot probably just took from the internet what that apologist commented.

[@ryangooseling]

After this week I'm opposed to religion

[@jdaze1]

So was Jesus. He never started a religion, Rome did.

[@edwardmiessner6502]

@@jdaze1 Jesus was opposed to religion? You forget he founded or was a leader of Nazorean Judaism.

[@mr.c2485]

Love it when she puts an “r” at the end of the word idea. I’ve started doing it….been called out for it.

[@jmatrixrenegade1971]

Jesus: vegetarian? Well, the gospels had him eating fish & his apostles had multiple fishermen among them. Doubt it.

[@jmatrixrenegade1971]

as to what he did before his ministry, one interesting bit there is if he ever got married. Not totally impossible.

[@dukeon]

Pescatarian 😄

[@RestoringReality]

News to me. I thought it was a doomsday cult of Paul followers who believe Jesus was either a liar or delusional when told the people he was speaking to in th flesh that he was returning for them, before some of them tasted death, for their generation, when those who pierced him would see him coming.

[@jdaze1]

It was referring to the return of the spirit of truth. The latter rain. It was personified in the gospels as a man. When truth returns then salvation comes. The NT was written as spiritual allegory that got literalized in the centuries after 70 ad.

[@andreagnauck4982]

This is one of my favorite channels. Thanks Mehan and Bart. Keep up the great content!

[@chipnewton9620]

If I was Jesus I'd set the record straight since I'd been misquoted so much.

[@mikebrown9850]

But your not Jesus thankfully. When He’s ready to get your attention, He will.

[@chipnewton9620]

@@mikebrown9850 I didn't realize there was a "my" Jesus or "your " Jesus. Ok I'll keep waiting on "your" Jesus to get my attention.

[@mikebrown9850]

@@chipnewton9620 your statement was “ If I was Jesus”. My comment was “your not Jesus…” I don’t get your misunderstanding of that comment.

[@chipnewton9620]

Oh I misunderstood your grammatical error. "Your" vs. "You're"

[@mikebrown9850]

@@chipnewton9620 well if you want to go grammatical to make yourself feel superior, the subjective connection to the noun I in you initial comment was in error and so should’ve read, “ If I (were) Jesus “, but thanks all the same for pointing out grammatical mistypes on a phone keypad.

[@Sammyandbobsdad]

There is, at least, one extremely famous apostolic imposter, Saul of Tarsus.

[@arthurzetes]

Why is he an imposter?

[@Sammyandbobsdad]

@@arthurzetes he was never an apostle of Jesus. They never met. He claimed the title, but hey, so could you or I.

[@arthurzetes]

@@Sammyandbobsdad if you’re a Christian or Peter you agree that Jesus revealed himself to Paul.

[@Sammyandbobsdad]

@@arthurzetes depends on the version of Christianity. Not believing in Saul as an apostle is no more heretical than the prosperity gospel or MAGA. I don’t say his writings weren’t divinely inspired, just he was never an apostle, he was a disillusioned closeted gay Pharisee who had a nervous breakdown when faced with persecuting people who truly believed and changed side. He got some things right and a lot wrong, but he never met Jesus. We only have the book attributed to Luke (his companion) to say Peter recognized him as an apostle. I’m probably wrong, my minister brother would insist I am, but I’m not the first or last who reject him as an apostle.

[@GabrielEddy]

@@Sammyandbobsdad None of his letters should be canonized, either.

[@eldarrissman4172]

Is CCR's song "Bad Moon a' Risen" considered apocalyptic literature?

[@jeffryphillipsburns]

Whatever you want, buddy.

[@dukeon]

He was batting 1.000 until the pitcher nailed him

[@willowwisp357]

We could use some of that de-apocalypsim in Protestant Christianity where they re-apocalypised in the nineteenth century. Hence the “Left behind” series. I am not a believer, but I was raised Christian. I didn’t see my churches pissed of Jesus, I saw the embodiment of humanism, like the unclean and ostracized Good Samaritan, who was almost certainly part of the kingdom of god. My church has been volunteering for public service and finding people in need to help. Many I have helped aren’t empathetic enough to be children of god, even though they were devout born again Christians. I believe in no afterlife nor divine intervention beyond healing unnecessary suffering. Isn’t that a world we would prefer? You can’t be a humanist if you aren’t a feminist as well.

[@DrustZapat]

Are you guys going to do an episode on fundamentalism?

[@Infrared1967]

A friend recently posted that the blood of Jesus was needed to help her. I replied that there's nothing better than Jesus's blood & guts to overcome adversity. I don't think she caught the dig. While I don't want to hurt her feelings during her time of need, these people don't ever consider how sick and offensive this blood & doomsday cult is.

[@russellmiles2861]

Well the trucking with a evil deity in exchange for immortality does sound a lot like vampirism: so the blood thing is part and parcel of this cult

[@goldie44451]

Well consider the contexts of Judaism and the teachings of Jesus. Judaism does have ancient origins and one of the practices of Judaism was sacrificing animals to God in exchange for forgiveness of sins. The Gospels of Matthew and Mark do conform to this custom of sacrifice, and that is by Jesus claim in the last supper of equating the cup of wine to his blood for the purpose of forgiveness of sins. So Jesus is claiming in those two gospels particularly that he is going to be a human sacrifice to forgive all sins of past and future ending the need of any other sacrifice. This is important in the contexts of Judaism and how one interprets the foundations of sin and death according to Genesis. Adam and Eve sins, and thus all their generations carry the knowledge of good and evil, and they must die for it. From a modern perspective Genesis may seem irrational and not very historical, but we must consider the ancient contexts and symbolic significance of the story. Genesis offers an explanation for why humankind is the way that it is; we are all mortal, conflicted, and yet under God. Jesus sacrifice is a resolution to the generational curse of death and sin where the sin is forgiven, and thus we may live again and not die.

[@jasonnelson316]

Absolutely great podcast. It brings to light how much the destruction of the 2nd Temple played into the actual writing of the Gospel literature. In Matthew, Jesus "prophesied the Temple's destruction. Matthew was written on scroll 15 years after the actual destruction. It's pretty easy to write a prophesy after an event happened.

[@ultravioletpisces3666]

It’s weird that they don’t see how common “modern churches” very much ARE doomsday cults and it’s not even sort of rare…

[@battlerushiromiya651]

Only among American Evangelicals and their offshoots.

[@ChristianMcAngus]

It might have started off as one, but after 2000 years and no doomsday, most believers have been forced to accept the end is probably not nigh.

[@ginafrancis4950]

Wish that were true. Lots of fundamentalist evangelicals are sure we are close especially with the recent Middle East eruption. Mormon fundamentalists are in high gear. They are moving to the wilderness to wait with all their guns food ammo etc. The belief is within the next few months. Jesus will appear. They are prepared to fight in gods army and we poor foolish souls are going to be taken out in a blaze of hell fire. This really is happening in Mormon world spurred on by a Mormon author who wrote Visions of Glory in 2013

[@ElkoJohn]

Excellent Q&A video, thank you Megan.

[@elzoog]

As far as "soon" or "a day is a thousand years" or whatever, try asking a Christian for money and tell him that you will pay him back "soon"

[@babyfishmoul]

This episode is so important and relevant to modern politics and also, sadly, current events! It explains an undercurrent that most non-evangelical people are completely unaware of! Thank you!

[@AnnoyingNewsletters]

Thanks Algorythmo. Greetings Megan, Bart. I was pleasantly surprised to hear the intro music. What a good way to first interact with chatgpt in your classroom. The bot said, that you said, there were apostle imposters. I said what ⁉️

[@Philusteen]

As far as "impostors" go, i always wondered why it would take a resurrected Jesus 40 days to convince his followers "yo, its totally me"....

[@KaiHenningsen]

Maybe that's how long it took to get back an answer from 23andMe.

[@Philusteen]

@@KaiHenningsen 😆

[@dukeon]

LOL

[@rickn8or]

And you'll notice the only disciple that got trash-talked was Thomas, the one that wanted proof.

[@Philusteen]

@@rickn8or a-HA, lol. 🤓

[@MTL_at_Islandgrove]

I studied, as an undergraduate, about earth science, etc. The discussion of geologic time is a part of scientific study. The passage in, I think, 2nd Isaiah, that states "Every valley shall be exalted, every mountain and hill made low, the crooked straight and the rough places plane." is worthy of note. This strange passage seems inserted relatedly into this section. In terms of scientific and geologic terminology it seems to describe geophysical processes and the now understood very long time scales. For example - how long does it take to erode a mountain, etc. Would you consider a future discussion on such topics. I hope so.

[@donny_doyle]

So happy I found you two- these videos/ conversations are theology gold! Lol...

[@bartdehrman]

Glad you're here! - Social Media Team

[@TerryJLaRue]

I think we all know folks who can't wait for Armageddon and the Apocalypse because they know THEY are going to Heaven and WE are not. I think they are most happy with the thought that WE are not.

[@janicehussock7735]

Witnesses!

[@Kenneth-ts7bp]

It would be nice if we could be there to say, "I told you so!", but, alas, we cannot cross over to that place from heaven.

[@ginafrancis4950]

Yup! Self righteous superiority wins the day for those waiting breathlessly for the end times.

[@johnthekeane]

Quite nice glassware coordination this time...

[@eddiemartin1671]

Great 👍

[@KarmasAB123]

Jeez, it's only been a year? Grats!

[@dugebuwembo]

Depends on the church, I have attended churches where Jesus imminent return is discussed often; the faithful (lamb of God) & the goats (unfaithful). End times ministry is common in some churches.

[@SylvesterReport]

Karen Armstrong's book The Battle for God dives into many of these points, such as the rebirth of apocalypticism among evangelicals during the Industrial Revolution. On the retaking of the Dome of the Rock to usher in the End of Days, there was actually a Jewish fundamentalist plot in the 70s to blow it up to trigger the messianic era, of which Armstrong writes: 'They were convinced that by instigating an apocalypse here on Earth, they would activate powers in the divine world and “oblige” God to intervene on their behalf and send the Messiah to save Israel. This was kabbalistic thinking gone mad. It is a terrifying example of the fundamentalist tendency to use mythology as a blueprint for action. . . . . . . The Dome of the Rock plot represented an abdication of reason, a reliance upon the miraculous, and a nihilism that could have entirely destroyed the Jewish state.'

[@ginafrancis4950]

Well said. Thank you. It all gets so dark and dangerous when religious zealots take scriptures literally. Maybe even when the mainstream religions start taking it all literally as well.

[@handofgrace5066]

Thank you. ♥

[@welcometonebalia]

Thank you.

[@comentedonakeyboard]

Believing that the End is near gets harder with every day.

[@tawan20082008]

thanks ! more pleas

[@toonmoene8757]

Thanks - Almost like you read my mind.

[@dennimer]

I only watch first couple of seconds just to check out what combination of glasses they got this time.. and then I continue listening

[@wpoe54]

The idea that God is in a battle with Satan for control of the world (universe?) in modern history has spawned endless "cults" or variations many call "New Religious Movements (NRMs). I became disillusioned with the racist forms of Christianity I experienced as a youth growing up in Arkansas. But somehow I didn't realize as a teenager that science offered a non-religious answer to many of my questions. So I became attracted to the many creative belief systems that proliferated in the late 1960s and early 1970s, finally committing to Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church. Why I am posting this here is that "apocalypticism", that it was already the "last days" was potent . . . lo, 2000 years after Jesus. Moon syncretized fundamentalist Christianity with creative and selective readings of the Hebrew and Christian Bibles that led to the conclusion that Jesus did not come to die but should have begun a family and "grafted" all who repented into the family of God, thus repopulating the world with God's "blessed" children. Since Jews did not believe, Jesus sacrificed his life and opened the way, spiritually, to Paradies -- but not "heaven." That must occur first on earth. Enter Rev. Moon. He believed he had received the mantle, the mission, of Jesus to finally get it done, to marry and spawn "blessed" children and then through mass weddings, populate the world with people forgiven, not just of daily sin, but "original sin," the sin of Adam and Eve. Those born of these "blessed couples" would be the first to be free from Satan's dominion. It is all nonsense. One only need look at the insanity of Moon's children as they include guns in their worship, battle in court over ownership of various elements of Moon's financial empire, and note the probably suicides as well as drug and spousal abuse (see: In the Shadow of the Moon: My Life in the Reverend Sun Myung Moon's Family by the ex-wife of Moon and his wife's eldest son). Nonetheless, the message accepted by followers that an ideal world of people free from sin who could become "true" brothers and sisters in love and peace attracted many, such as myself, who joined at age eighteen. The theology was possible because of the prophecies preserved in the Christian New Testament that continue to reverberate with potency.

[@dukeon]

Nice explanation of that cult. I don’t know much about it before, though I’d heard of it of course. Sorry you got wrapped up in that nonsense, and happy you seem to have come through it (and the churches in Arkansas) ok. Your message is potent: Ideas that remain in “scripture” to this day are fertile soil for cults to spring from.

[@wailinburnin]

I got a chance to go to the Moonie center in San Francisco in 1977 (I went like a tourist to see how kooky it was). There were 3 young guys back in the kitchen who were there just for the free food and a place to stay. It was a crack-up. Thanks for the explanation.

[@ginafrancis4950]

Wow! Thanks for sharing this. So interesting to compare notes on cults. The cult of Mormonism (how I was raised) is just as wild. In Joseph Smiths time he believed the apocalypse would come in his lifetime. There is a whole doomsday prepper movement happening now at the fringes of mainstream Mormonism. They have their hatred of government, their stockpiles of guns, tents food, water, ammunition. Jesus is coming, by one estimation in April of next year. They are ready to fight in gods army against satan and his minions, spurred on by a book written in 2013 titled Visions of Glory. (Mormon author of course). They not only take that book seriously but of course revelations in the NT and most importantly their book of Mormon also speaks of the apocalypse so they’re getting triple doses of whakadoodle. And the madness continues…

[@petrairene]

A friend of mine is an Ethiopian Christian and she believes in an actual apocalypse here on earth.

[@daodejing81]

She's woefully deceived, like religious people in general.

[@jdaze1]

Apocalypse in Greek simply means REVEALING. The end of the age is about the revealing of hidden truth. The uncovering of centuries old lies created by evil scribes who corrupted the scriptures.

[@user-og2wt3le4j]

Same with the JWs. They always are waiting for A-day.

[@sassylittleprophet]

Same with IFB (Independent Fundamental Baptists), exfundie here

[@ginafrancis4950]

Same with the Mormons- ex Mormon here.

[@gianmarionava]

Thanks god, Megan has new spectacles!

[@dukeon]

Those lenses must be made from the bottom of old Coke bottles 😳

[@MTL_at_Islandgrove]

The Balfour declaration is discussed, in brief, in Barbara Tuchman's wonderful book "The Proud Tower," lots of great historical things that we were n ever taught in our public school system here in the US.

[@norzilahaziz6695]

Dr Ehrman is a great scholar of our time..respect n salute both of you..haha

[@terbospeed]

At 19:25 this is interesting, I will need more information on the statements at 24:29 especially...

[@harrybarry9382]

What’s the releases podcast 2 days ago, 5 days before that and one today? What’s the schedule for these?

[@walterbushell7029]

When a John Frum leader was asked by a missionary said you've been waiting for John Frum for 70 years and he hasn't shown up. Then the John Frum, "You been waiting for your Jesus for over 1800 years". I give the advantage to the John Frumist. The people of Tanna got to maintain their culture from the colonial powers for decade. Biblical inerrancy is a crust defense, but the churches that support it are growing and those that don't are shrinking. in my life, John Frum and Jesus are equally relevant except Mr. Frum was a much better person.

[@martinpappaterra1738]

After listening to the complete vlog, I'm assuming it was taped prior to the war in Israel. Whew, I hope I'm right.

[@franklinrobinson]

I'm currently reading Armageddon and about half way through. So, far it's an interesting and eye-opening read.

[@wailinburnin]

At about minute 25 Bart gets into the real, physical danger of this insanity.

[@elainebraindrain3174]

The book of daniel 2 states that the kingdom would destroy all other rulerships. Taught as literal. I used to believe that😢

[@majafleur9646]

Having been born & raised a Jehovah's Witness, left, is shunned, and now a mainstream, questioning Christian seeker this one particularly appealed. I'm still recovering from the doomsday cult mentality, frankly.

[@toddzeigler9432]

I had never thought about the zealots and their active provocation of the issue in Jesus' era. Is it possible that the portrayal of zealots in the gospels, specifically Judas Iscariot, is a critique of their provocative approach based on the distance between Jesus ministry, the date of gospel composition, and the fact Jesus had not returned?

[@mikeharrison1868]

A couple of stories from infancy gospels made it into the Qur'an. Jesus, as an otherwise pre-verbal baby, defending Mary's honour, and making clay birds, then bringing them to life.

[@joeywilliams2675]

I have been searching and I can’t find a clean answer. I know because it’s widely avaible that mark 16:9 is added but is the great commission added to Mathew and acts as well?

[@ColinWrubleski-eq5sh]

I have read comments / claims elsewhere that Bart Ehrman is to be properly identified as a textual critic but NOT as a New Testament scholar. Would either Megan or Bart himself be able to comment upon that distinction, and is the implied criticism valid? as a New Testament scholar. Woukd

[@erink3289]

Is the live podcast at 8pm Eastern time?

[@d..c4808]

Love the idea of teen Jesus batting a thousand for Smallville High.

[@fattyfat-fat6639]

Constantine surely siezmically shifted christian outlook through his "marrying" of christian and pagan thought, and not for the better. And so did j.n.darby by his rhetorical shenanigans - mostly driving it even further from jesus' original conception. Would you care to do a podcast on what darby's chicanery did to modern christian thought?

[@MossyMozart]

@fattyfat-fat6639 - I read somewhere that since the supposed-Paul eschewed supposed-Jesus' teachings so much that supposed-James called him a heretic. I have been looking for a relievable source to discuss this, but have not yet found one.

[@jamesreagh6635]

It isn't?

[@oswaldmargoni]

If doomsday preachers/cults are closer to early Christianity than modern churches, does that mean that David Koresh was opinionally closer to Jesus than the pope?

[@dukeon]

Probably, but they are/were both nutters. Although the current Pope seems like a nicer guy.

[@ginafrancis4950]

Don’t forget the Mormon nutters. They believe they have Jesus’s own restored gospel. Right now on the fringes of mainstream Mormonism is the prepper movement. A doomsday movement prepared in the next few months to fight in gods army. Jesus is supposed to arrive in April of next year.

[@belialord]

I think this is the best hair color for Megan so far

[@jfd12gubs45x]

What a cheap comment! A serious discussion is in progress here. I wish you could take your hair colour obsession to your high school pals

[@Robert_L_Peters]

What bothers me is the obsession with Revelation and recognizing the signs of 'the end times.' While Judaism has their prophecies to recognize their messiah, the Christians reject these, maintain that the jews are confused, then claim that their new prophets (jesus and paul) say that no one will see the end coming, yet also clinging to all the bizarre prophecies of Revelation. Very confusing.

[@Smithy-nc1xw]

In the many podcasts I have watched I have not heard Prof Ehrman refer to the dynamic assembly of believers who we see being guided as to the truth that Jesus had instilled in his apostles, confirmed by the Spirit. The many NT references to the exercise of authority in that era and to the discipline demanded of those who would be believers tell us that there was a deposit of truth that had to be safeguarded even as it was being developed and expressed in innovative ways.

[@ged9925]

@bartehrman Can you provide some historical insight on ownership/cohabitation of the land of Israel?

[@GabrielEddy]

Land of Canaan, an Egyptian vassal state

[@desertboot9755]

I'm always curious as to why Bart rarely discusses Jehovah's Witnesses, given their apocalyptic underpinning.

[@janicehussock7735]

Curious I fled them.

[@janicehussock7735]

Oh, I saw a convention video with a ruler clearly dissing Bart. But not naming him or UNC. So funny contrasting the clowns and Bart.

[@mowthpeece1]

The kingdom of God is a choice. It's a way of living. It's all around us because this is where we live. We can choose to love our brothers as ourselves, etc., we just don't. But imagine if we did. Life would be heaven.

[@sharonhearne5014]

Isn’t this, in a bizarre sort of way, like secretly suspecting that you are going to “win the lottery” when you opt to believe that, in the end time you will definitely be one of the Chosen who will be with God and Jesus in Heaven? Of course the Bible roughly sketches out how one accepts Jesus and is therefore “saved” - not clearly sketched out, of course - whether or not if you can also be booted out the state of salvation if you reverse your religious stance. So which “doom” is it?

[@reverendatheist7026]

Literally the KZbin advertisement placed on this video: Dr David Jeremiah, on why the rapture is immanent.

[@harveyangel4534]

In 12 steps, there is a concept of becoming familiar with your own understanding of a power greater than yourself as a resource for help from addiction or other powerlessness. Through this process, people needing such a resource often work through beliefs or teachings ab🎉out God they had a problem with to find an understanding that is personal. You inform my understanding of what my Higher power is not, for which I am grateful, but do not seem to have any personal spiritual understanding of your own that is not tied to the book or doctrines I agree are unhelpful. Got any?

[@daryldixon5587]

3:34 POV: youre both imposters convincing the crew

[@DeconvertedMan]

it kinda is.

[@lennomenno]

Even Jesus got the End Times wrong. It’s amazing how Fundies spin that fact.

[@douglasodonnell6800]

If there’s going to be a war to last 40years and God will step in and bring the victory, what’s the point of having humankind involved?

[@ginafrancis4950]

Gods ways are mysterious. 🙄 That is literally what a Christian will say to unanswerable questions. Or they’ll make up something nonsensical. But it’s all nonsensical so what does it matter?

[@danielmelgar8918]

Course on the topic of changing the manuscripts and why they would change manuscripts. Corruptionn of scripture need to learn on that.

[@bobstine3785]

When Bart says "eschatological", I invariably hear "scatological" 😅

[@GWFHegel-ms7gz]

They're not too far off. They have bullish!t in common.

[@Jin420]

But it is... especially current Christianity.... More I hear you speak, the more I enjoy your work. So thank you for that. (I was introduced to your work by Paulogia 😊)

[@Jin420]

I don't get it... There are literally THOUSANDS of different religions throughout the world.. (approx 4,000-10,000) So what makes these Christians think that theirs is the "right" religion?? 🤔 If I'm not mistaken, Christianity isn't even the oldest religion. That's Hinduism, possibly Zoroastrianism. Roughly 83% of the religions in practice are Baha'i, Buddhism, Christianity, Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, Judaism, Shinto, Sikhism, Taoism, and Zoroastrianism. Granted it's currently the most popular religion.. but that doesn't mean their religion is better than others or better than no religion at all. 💯

[@jeffryphillipsburns]

A Christian is someone from a Christian culture. There is no other definition that can have any validity. Naturally someone from a Christian culture will have a deep connection to Christianity that he won’t have and couldn’t have to any other religion. That doesn’t mean of course that he must literally believe any of its tenets, but of course the simple-minded Christians and the professionally invested (cynically or otherwise) will profess to literal belief.

[@Jin420]

​​@@jeffryphillipsburns I get wanting to follow God or whatever.. having blind faith, etc, etc, etc.. It's just their "hubris" in thinking that Christianity is one & only true religion. And this taking things literally -- sheesh... I was always told Bible is to be "interpreted" type of way... not in a literal sense. (I'm a former Christian -- one of the colleges I wanted to attend back years ago was Moody) No matter my beliefs, I've always shown respect to others' beliefs. But I've noticed many Christians have much difficulties doing so... rather wanting to force their beliefs onto others.

[@arnulfo267]

People in every religion think their religion is the "right one". Muslims think Islam is the right one.

[@daodejing81]

Christianity is a cult.

[@user-og2wt3le4j]

There are 30,000 Christian denominations. Most of them them claim to have the "truth" of the gospels. Religions are another story. If you buy the story of Jesus then all other religions are false. The story is his divine birth, ministry, death, and resurrection. It is hard to combine that with other religions when Christianity claims to have the handbook for living.

[@anonymoususer6037]

ChatGPT hallucinates sometimes.

[@hm5142]

Religions don't allow the basic question you have to ask when you have any idea: "What if I am wrong?". I have been an experimental physicist for more than 50 years, and I know that almost all my ideas are wrong. The secret is that so are everyone else's! To think that you can have a single idea and be convinced it is right seems the height of arrogance, and to have an opinion on unverifiable topics seems totally nuts as well.