Why it didn't work for me: Natlan archon quest review & analysis

[@klioseth4336]

The amount of time spent onscreen dealing with giving the traveler an ancient name that ultimately does barely nothing in the story is such a weird thing.

[@daizenmarcurio]

all that yapping led to nothing, my other gripe with genshin as a whole is the long and boring dialogue.

[@deckyfx2188]

And gathering 6 heroes also contribute nothing to the final showdown

[@wibu_berkata]

It more like "better do than sorry" thing

[@lelouchvibritannia1662]

​@@deckyfx2188The 6 heroes already did their part... I'm assuming they were supposed to attack the abyss in the night kingdom and overwhelm the abyss with numbers due to ode of resurrection and then Mavuika will venture alone in the deepest part of the night kingdom to deal the final blow but the abyss bring the fight to them in natlan before they could awakened the last hero and the Traveler also become a part of the plan due to his immunity to the abyss so they kinda waited for his ancient name Cuz Mavuika's original plan was that, the 6 heroes should've already been awakened by the time she resurrected 500 years later

[@dualwieldroxas358]

I love how they just brushed off the cost by saying "Oh, the Nightqueen helped, so Xilonen is fine" After spending A LITERAL ACT on how much forging Traveler's Ancient Name would cost, and how the cost of death was inescapable

[@wiktoriakos2597]

My main frustration was that Capitano was built up to be a great character and his "last scene" could've been great amazing and even more emotional than Fontaine...if they didn't cram everything about him in the last 20 minutes and randomly drop his real name in a random dialogue.

[@saurusness]

Truly, there were many opportunities to show his side of the narrative instead of endless scenes of character slow walking or signing autographs.. Just mentioning (or ideally showing) his torment earlier on would have been a big improvement and would have helped make the ending feel a little more organic for me

[@wiktoriakos2597]

@saurusness yeah we're just told and not shown. And this simple rule brought down this entire AQ that truly could've been the greatest in my humble opinion. (I still enjoyed it)

[@glory_m99]

@@saurusness but signing autographs and hero party what make it feel like Traveler is important and made the experience more fun in my opinion capitano's story doesn't have that big of content it is straight forward story that short and sweet one I will take Traveler appreciation over another character anytime of the day Traveler is the most important character to developed especially that we are near the end they need us to care about traveler and I think they made the right call by doing it in this way

[@Axel-er1hx]

​@@glory_m99I am wondering if traveller was even required for natlan, I feel like mavuika would have still won

[@wiktoriakos2597]

@@glory_m99 If they really wanted to present Capitano`s story in a simple way they shouldn`t have A) drop so much marketing on this man (he appeared in 3 official artworks being a focal point in one way or another) B) not make him the NO.1 Harbinger, like seriously a top harbinger shouldn`t be rid off the story so easily C) Capitan`s story is a MASSIVE concept, an immortal man carrying souls for centuries is a plot point that feels so fresh and intriguing, and leaves so much room for character exploration, they shouldn`t have bothered with the plot point of him carrying those souls if they were just going to give him one cutscene.

[@raptori]

100% felt the same. It feels weird to say "I wanted more" considering just how far they leaned into making the story "epic" etc, but I really did ...it was just more _depth_ that I wanted rather than more hype.

[@saurusness]

YEah I think I would've felt less disappointed if potential depth hadn't been replaced with ltieral hours of (imo) fluff 💀 I don't necessarily expect Arcane level story telling, but as long as I'm not frustrated out of my mind by slow walks and characters using maximum number of words to convey as little as possible, then I can enjoy a story even if it's a little simpler that what I'm used to!

[@idkatthispoint-s9s]

@@saurusness I think they would have been way better off if the celebration parade was held AFTER everything with Capitano. I really did not enjoy celebrating while such huge threads like Mavuika's death and Capitano's goal were left hanging. I was constantly thinking 'this can't be it right?' with a frown on my face. If only they focused on the individual arcs of Capitano and Mavuika after defeating the abyss as opposed to the parade... I wouldnt mind the quest being a couple of hours longer if it meant fully fledged arcs for two important characters.

[@GustavoJua15]

​@idkatthispoint-s9s But it made sense. No one but Citlali and those she told knew about what Mavuika had done. Every other Natlanese had no reason to not party. They thought it was all over.

[@kingdoom5022]

​@@saurusness I was agreeing with you until you mentioned arcane , that show was trash especially S2

[@isaw9969]

@@kingdoom5022 season 1 was not trash at all, lol. despite some rushed council decisions and the tendency to make the evil guys ugly (which is more a design than a story flaw), season 1 was very tightly written and had a good emotional and political core. season 2 was trash tho, thats 100% true. it just dropped all politcal intrigue in order to make a big End Of The World drama (where they made the disabled character the eugenics god, lmfao wtf was that, and the 3 characters that died were characters that have been actively suicidal, which is both uhm bad and cheapens their sacrifice) (and dont even get me started on how they ruined characters like vi, jinx, jayce, sevika, mel...)

[@raquelqw]

I felt so disappointed when they just defeated the abyss, with no twists whatsoever, it looked like it was a walk in the park for them… I was so invested in story before the finale, but ending was really weak

[@ngm6541]

i agree I love genshin because the archon quests always have the twist at the end that makes you drop your jaw and cry but this time they made the capitano scene the twist that was actually very obvious. I didnt like that Deus Ex Machina. Mavuika shouldve died and Capitano shouldve made the deal to switch places with her

[@gamerbeast3616]

ending was good keep haiting

[@Stanzbey69]

Considering skirk is playable in version 5, i doubt the abyss has been dealt with

[@Quon]

@@Stanzbey69 i dont think the abyss in natlan is the whole abyss of teyvat

[@zelktheinvader7874]

The Abyss isn't gone. It's still there. Just expelled from the Night Kingdom

[@Girlwholovesherelves]

I just remember Focalor's execution. How everything lead up to that moment of the grand reveal and her last dance. I wish they did something like that with Capitano. Like I would have loved to have seen him make his way to that throne, take his mask off revealing his face as if he's getting ready to fully let go and relax after so long, and drop it at his side as he smiled up to Celestia and the heavens as he peacefully went away. That would have been much more stronger than what we got.

[@grimoireweiss3099]

This might sound awful, but I sort of hoped that they would've let us hear how the screams in Capitano's mind sounded. And once he was able to rest, the screen blacked out with the screams fading as well.

[@connorradcliffe1769]

Cap face reveal might have scared some players because he's supposed to be a walking rotting corpse kept alive through his immortality

[@summerrain2990]

​@@connorradcliffe1769 it could've been a nice intro to a tonal shift for Genshin's story telling We are having snezhnaya this year, and possibly confronting whatever the deal is with heavenly principles. The story is gonna have much higher stake so a tonal shift imo is needed sooner or later

[@akarifuyuki9763]

​@@connorradcliffe1769His black face is his actual face. The scene where he removed his mask, you can see the mask is hollow

[@seid_1068]

"supposed to be" but we all know he's just gonna be white tall guy number 54. a scar at most, maybe​@@connorradcliffe1769

[@cqwiii]

Exactly how I feel with an added dose of irritation that Mavuika stated early on that she objected to using the gnosis to lord of the night l as Capitano wanted.. not only because it would sacrifice the souls in the night kingdom and the memories and traditions of Natlan.. but also because it was a temporary solution, and she was going to solve the problem once and for all ... but then in the end we discover that her solution was also temporary for 3 minutes until Capitano actually makes it permanent

[@silverhawkscape2677]

To be fair. Capitano original Solution would have costed Natlan everything about them.

[@Vintagestep]

Idk, I feel it was foreshadowed enough, when Mavuika and Capitano talked about their plans, he also revealed being basically a walking corpse, and when Ororon was possessed it was clear that the soul leaked from him (if not where? that dude is not from Natlan), and then he stayed for a private conversation with the Lord of the Night after learning that Mavuika had to die to pay the price, it was all too perfect for him. I do agree with what was said in the video, the way he was brought to the conversation leading to his sacrifice seemed like a Deus Ex, but besides that I think it was clear enough. Still, I do agree we could've got more screen time with him and have more tension between him and the Natlans to have a better build up.

[@nagyzsuzsi97]

​@@Vintagestep lack of foreshadowing isn't problem, that was done well. It's the way Mavuika portraid her plan. She made it sound like it was going to be a permanent solution, when in fact her life force would only sustain the Lord of the Night for a few hundred years. So it was just as temporary as the Captain's plan and future archons would have to solve the resurfacing problem again and again.

[@Vintagestep]

@@nagyzsuzsi97 I wouldn't say it was the same, Capitano's plan would win at the cost of all the knowledge and memories of the entire nation, and the threat of the abyss is still there even if they fixed the night kingdom, while Mavuika just was going to sacrifice herself, however it's true that she was putting too much faith on her successors. Everything could've been written a bit better.

[@starpeep5769]

Exactly and Mavuika doesn't want to give up the Pyro Gnosis... hunn

[@mimiza05]

“Natlan rewritten” theory makes so much sense. Dainsleif Travail Trailer, the slime theory, Genshin’s official comics about Murata and people of Natlan… They don’t add up to the story at all? It’s as if they rewrote the entire plot for cash grab, this was definitely not how the story was supposed to be like. Felt like so much was promised yet so little was delivered. It was all about ‘power of friendship’ and it frustrated me so much. Natlan was the most mysterious nation and had the potential to be something outstanding.

[@aikivya]

@@mimiza05 I don't think it's just a theory, makes sense a lot of what they said abt this nation in the past was never shown in the actual nation, the manga showing Vanessa being a slave from Natlan, but all this time in Natlan no one even mentioned Vanessa or the slavery, like that part of the manga is completely gone from the game, but we got collei, cyno and elezar, no mention of Murata either, the children of Murata, gone. The characters sure feel like a cash grab, the story has a lot of missing points and just got dragged out

[@goddamnarshia]

Not the "gotcha" you think it is, because fontaine was IRREFUTABLEY rewritten and the same people who hate natlan ate that one up no problem. Stories get rewritten throughout development.

[@aikivya]

@goddamnarshia true, the bad thing abt playing a game that's being actively developed it's that is bound to be rewritten, but still, it had much more potential, the world quests in this nation are carrying it

[@Hesgot_apoint]

​@@goddamnarshiaThis isn't the "Gotcha" you think it is. This doesn't excuse the many writing mistakes and choices made these few patches. Not trying to start something, but the "this isn't the 'Gotcha'" comment of yours was unnecessary.

[@Svenir]

@@goddamnarshia Nothing wrong with something being rewritten as long as it's good, but that's not the case with Natlan

[@Leon_the_Amateur]

For me, act V felt like it was rewritten at the halfway point. Mavuika's apparent death being not in battle but as sacrifice, Capitano's notable absence in the earlier sections, The timing of the traveler's resonance, the traveler's ancient name having little relevance, even the resolution for Kachina's little saurian which came twice in a single quest chain. I wanted to love it, man. I tried to love it but it just fell flat.

[@tochichukwuocha1607]

Wait question. Was the ancient name needed for the traveler to resonate with pyro? If not then why couldn’t they have just done it earlier. I’m so confused cuz I have no idea the point of the ancient name.

[@Leon_the_Amateur]

@ I don’t think so, the pyro resonance moment and ancient name mantra moment came separately, right? And I don’t think there was no indication that the ancient name could give him pyro abilities.

[@tochichukwuocha1607]

@@Leon_the_Amateur that’s so weird. Like it was specifically shown that traveler couldn’t use pyro and I thought there was a clear reason behind it. Unless I’m missing something the ancient name is the only thing I can think of that would be the reason they couldn’t just use pyro the second they touched the statue.

[@Leon_the_Amateur]

@ No explanation was given for not getting pyro. Later, Lord of the night granted both the mantra and the resonance. It would’ve made sense if the ancient name’s awakening was the reason for unlocking pyro. Like, why did these two events have to be separate, right?

[@vangoghsseveredear]

​@@tochichukwuocha1607the point of the ancient name was so that if she died in the night kingdom, she could be brought back with the ritual. The ritual doesn't work unless they have an ancient name

[@rawberry9781]

it annoyed me how little iansan did, in the main trailer from years ago they teased all of these cool characters that are going to do a lot in the quest, Lyney, Ayaka, Diluc, Ninnguang and Cyno, but then when we get to natlan, iansan is just like... there

[@flyingcow5235]

true

[@Kokichus]

> that are going to do a lot in the quest and ayaka did...what?

[@pr0ntab]

This is just what happens when you design characters really early on and then have to write a story around them and realize oh wait, this isn't going to work, especially if the mechanics of the region hadn't been conceptualized fully yet. I think if movements mechanics weren't so central to Natlan then Iansan could be given way more to do.

[@summerrain2990]

​@@Kokichus wet her socks. But even metawise she was THE top char, her hype was also bc she's the long awaited char from cbt. Iansan rly got nothing so far

[@Elyssa_00]

I think between the characters that appeared in that video, Ayaka and Iansan are the ones who don't do much in the Archon quests and have little to no important to the story.

[@padgepadge]

Mavuika being flawless and perfect is the most frustrating thing to me as up to this point all of the archons have had their flaws or challenges that made them compelling. Inazuma’s story is messy overall but I love Ei because she’s hugely flawed and has to grow from her past mistakes. Zhongli is my second-favorite character in the game, and while he’s wise and generally kind he is haunted by all of the bloodshed and war in his past. Mavuika deciding to basically go into stasis and come back to beat the abyss is a cool hook but it just ends like…oh I guess she’s fine with everyone she loved being dead.

[@tala_monga]

literally?? i always think about how she fits into every category of a mary sue

[@padgepadge]

@ It’s also a bummer because she’s the only archon who’s canonically just a human but she’s just…immediately correct in the story and her plan was totally flawless. I haven’t done her story quest, admittedly, so maybe that helps make up for how uninteresting I find her in the AQ. But the set up of an archon with real humanity has so much promise that it feels like a real missed opportunity.

[@idkonaname1511]

she's not entirely flawless, like she's self- sacrificing to point it's kinda annoying when she doesn't care about herself and the sacrifices she makes if it's for Natlan, even if it kills her. Like kinda good trait for a leader but it's also kinda frustrating

[@pokespecialfan1]

correct, she is not flawless however I understand the criticism she is receiving. As a Mavuika lover since day 1 and as much as I admire her determination and will, I think they failed a bit in showing us those flaws she has. Spoiler territory ofc . . . Capitano (and Ronova) proved in the end that Mavuika's plan was indeed flawed and depended on repeating a cicle with other future pyro archons suffering from the same fate, safety for a couple of hundred years, yet they would have to find a way to keep the fire burning forever. Capitano had another idea and even Mavuika ended up agreeing that in a way, he won their duel with his ultimate plan. Her convo with citlali when she ask "but what do you want? Aren't you important?" (And Mavuika says that she isn't) is just another proof that her sacrificial nature and hot headed mindset is a flaw and Traveler implies that she even prepared this speech so we would have a difficult (and not enough) time refuting it considering Ronova wanted to finish the whole ordeal as quickly as possible. This argument about her not considering other alternatives is also shown in act 3 if I remember correctly, when she discusses Capitano's plan B, but here she is painted as the correct one, as the alternative was a huge price for Natlan to pay. I think the could have shows us more of her flaws and issues, especially inside the own game. (Haven't played her mission yet so I can be wrong about this) The animated short in my opinion was great to show how her determination could fail at times and that she wasn't so sure of herself and that she almost lost the way during those 500 years, I just wish we could have seen more of that ingame, I think both she and the traveler were too chill and sure of themselves before going to the abyss and in my eyes, a bit of angst and doubts about the possibility of failing everyone and not returning would have been amazing. Show us that being heroes can be a motivation, but also a burden. This battle, as she said, was the cultination of her life purpose and her final goal, being a little afraid of messing up would be on point idk.

[@idkatthispoint-s9s]

I think Mavuika is insanely well written. She is shown to be a perfectionist, which means everything she does has to be to its highest level. And she is portrayed to put in that level of work towards it too. She's not perfect and she is overtly shown to be way over her head and impulsive with many things. As for the complexity in her character, I think she is super complex. She just does not have the privilege as the god of war to slip up, or show importance to her emotions and wants. In the face of war, people look towards a strong, perfect and stoic leader, not a person who lets herself be emotionally vulnerable. Which kinda leads to people seeing her as being very flat and generic. Similar to how Furina too was required to be theatrical and whimsical because that's what her subjects wanted. And it is shown how that has seeped into her normal personality too, now that she isn't the archon anymore. Mavuika's vulnerability was shown in the past through her teasers and animations. She has lost that ability in her present. I strongly stand by her being one of the better written characters. Certainly up there with Nahida and Furina. While Natlans story has a lot of flaws, they certainly delivered with Mavuika as a character. Good character writing is not limited to tragedy and emotional trauma. She is stoic and perfect because that's what her role has required her to be.

[@2D_Emerald]

natlan was so well set up, fontaine was incredible and neuvillette made it out to be an intimidating region, and then it just.. wasn't? the first four acts were alright, but the fifth has pacing that just failed to keep me engaged, and the traveler glazing at the end felt so unnecessary. one of the NPCs literally said "I think I'm falling in love" in regards to the traveler. it just strikes me as really weird and doesn't align with the rest of natlan at all. in natlan, "no one fights alone" and yet they make the traveler out to be the sole savior of the nation. they really wanted to make the traveler the protagonist in natlan, whereas in other regions they were a sort of observer of teyvat. it's a weird tonal shift that was super off-putting for me.

[@DT-yw4ob]

"No one fights alone" The same people, a couple of weeks earlier. "Lol, wouldn't it be effed up if we sent 2 people against the final boss of Natlan's Abyss?"

[@mumi1865]

Took the word right out of my mouth. I'm wondering whether I skipped any traveler lore because why do the traveler now deliberately, no force, 100% want and is willing to try to save the whole nation? 😭 I remember in dain 2nd quest, they literally see their sibling and say "Let's just dip" What happen to that narrative???

[@starpeep5769]

Exactly natlan fell flat, columbina save natlan (ans fontaine and inazuma also from the retconning) pls believe in the snezhnaya

[@ziephel-6780]

Didn't Zhongli once said that the Traveler was supposed to be a witness? Not the center of the story?

[@summerrain2990]

​@@ziephel-6780 yep, and sumeru up to fontaine actually made Trav to be witness only. Sumeru was saved by joined force of the cast, and for Fontaine trav rly only witnessed how it all went down.

[@nickb2478]

I hated the capitano sacrifice thing because we had no actual time to learn about his suffering beyond him mentioning his body is decaying. It felt like they just had him die because they didn't want to kill the archon/playable character. If they built up capitanos character more it would have been so much better but since he isn't a banner 5 star he doesn't get a bunch of screentime to sell him. He was genuinely the most interesting character in the whole natlan quest and they just never built on it. Also citlali could have been so much better but they just made her haha she's actually old haha she's a tsundere haha. Also I get they're waiting to do drip marketing but could they not have had ifa show up to the final natlan fight like was he just chilling in his vet office the whole time??????

[@Elyssa_00]

@@nickb2478 That's what I don't like about Genshin. In some cases, the game keep mentioning several names through dialogues, item descriptions, other characters, but for some reason, said characters never appear until much later even though it's only natural to some of them to appear early (like Ayato and IFA for example). While in another cases, new characters barely or never mentioned in the game at all, and suddenly poof! New characters appear out of nowhere.

[@uuuuulan]

Natlan felt like a bunch of good quality ingredients prepared and just tossed into the pan haphazardly and without care. So much potential but instead of making us care more about Capitano's goals and identity and developing the relationships between the main characters, they spent so much time glazing the Traveler and Mavuika and throwing parties.

[@zhongliswallet6241]

I was wondering why there was absolutely no mention of Vanessa or Murata in natlan and. And turns out there's a reason why: In China the prologue about Vanessa and murata has been entirely DELETED it seems Hoyoverse has completly retconned (or is trying to) that part of the story and it's frustrating to say the least because now there are inconsistencies in the story between mondstadt and natlan and it's just a shame as a whole this interesting piece of lore has been deleted for the lackluster lore we got in Natlan, it makes sense that Natlan is possiblity rewritten.

[@starpeep5769]

Oh my god, what are they gonna do with bennett and mare jivari now

[@koopatroopa305]

Ur so right, before Natlan I thought we would go into this war torn land with fire and fighting everywhere and that we would learn the past of Natlan including Vanessa and Murata. But it was sooooo lame :( I loved the fourth act tho, it was fire.

[@ziephel-6780]

That is so disappointing. So, wait, Natlan has little to no connection to Mondstadt now? Is Natlan just an entirely isolated region that it might as well be it's own world?

[@Raismawn]

Venti actually mentions Venessa in his voicelines about Mavuika. Mare jivari isn’t even released yet, it’s still a mystery why mondstadters are so obsessed with a place on the opposite side of the continent

[@zhongliswallet6241]

@@ziephel-6780 honestly I don't know but if Hoyoverse is really Reconning Vanessa and her tribe than a huge part of Mondstadt, nights of vavonius ,Venti and a few other lore will either be removed or reconned, I don't understand and I can hardly believe Hoyoverse would take such risk for new Natlan lore

[@rileeeyi]

honestly i feel like mavuika fell flat because they didn’t understand what a leader in this kind of environment would look like

[@watcherwhowatches6725]

REAL

[@UltraCookie3000]

From the start, Natlan's aesthetic and theming and vibes immediately screamed "run of the mill shonen". I think because I adjusted my expectations from the get go, I wasn't that disappointed. Deux ex machina is par for the course in mainstream shonen. I expected nothing less. Instead I enjoyed the deep lore bits we got and some questions being answered about the angels, Seelies, etc. I hope they don't screw up Columbina when she shows up. The avengers moment I didn't feel much cuz the characters always felt like "power stones" or "exodia pieces" rather than people I connected with personally. Idk for example, Chasca can go mad cuz of the abysal corruption, woulda loved to see a vulnerable story beat where she loses her mind and causes some damage and then has to redeem her reputation/image somehow. Show me that Chuychu loses some trust and gets scared of her in that moment and Chasca has to work her butt of to earn it back. I dunno man, SHOW me her struggle rather than shoving it down my throat with text boxes. Don't even get me started on the aesthetic/design choices. But that's up to personal taste so I'll leave that on the side and not let it affect my digestion of the story. I want them to be good at storytelling, and man it pains me that the lore allows them to have a good skeleton, they just yeah... rush things, or dumb it down too much. Wasn't it so weird that there's like NO explanation during the fight as to WHO this dragon is?? Why was it holding swords looking like Capitano's and Mavuika's? What was the significance there? Was there any? I agree that there wasn't a single moment of doubt that we were gonna lose. Felt like typical shonen plot armour. I wanted us to actually lose or maybe win but at a great cost and then Capitano sacrificing himself to solve the loss would've felt more impactful. Like: "No I won't let you guys take this L, Natlan deserves a future." I thought (in vacuum) it was so cool that Capitano basically put Renova in a checkmate. Yet after seeing his body sitting on the throne I didn't know what to feel... I was happy he got the release from his body torture, but I couldn't help but feel like it was all too convenient. But going back to my shonen expectations, shonen is often convenient in the same way. I'm hoping the interlude quests explore more about the deeper lore. For a Nation of war, things felt too goofy (the bike scene had me bursting into laughter), colourful and happy when it came to the end. I know that the feast was put there to build contrast for the event to come, but it was way too long winded. It felt like I was watching One Piece, and no matter how serious that show can get I just CANNOT ever take it seriously... This is all just my opinion, so OP fans pls don't come after me lol

[@raptori]

Thanks for sharing! I've never really watched/read any shonen stories, so it's really interesting to hear how the expectations there would be shifted and how that makes the story come across a lot better.

[@saurusness]

A good read, thanks for sharing! 💜 I think the fact that I'm so unfamiliar with anime tropes is defnitely part of why so many things going on in Natlan didn't quite land the same for me - perhaps like you said; I didn't know to adjust my expectations fromt he get go! Natlan has actually as a whole had me thinking maybe I should try watching more anime/reading some manga :D Absolutely agree though, I think Genshin has all the pieces for a great story - the lore is deep and interesting - but they simply don't consistently do a good job of translating that into an actual story, with a good narrative gameplay experience, and it's frustrating!

[@ManiacalBlueberry]

Because it was so shounen like, I loved it. It reminded me of my childhood with cool lore drops lol

[@Slow1337ex]

you've just said about everything I have issues with about Natlan, thank you I would also like to add how it feels disconnected from the rest of the game. We are nearing the end of the story and we somehow got less bigger picture lore crumbs and nudges towards the climax than Fontaine. The false sky and Ronova reveals were great but just not enough, specially since we actually haven't really learned much. This also touches your point about the dragon. Gosoythoth was seemingly a very important being of the Abyss which could have held some important information about them or the Abyss itself. Instead, we got nothing. It was just an evil thing and that's it. It seriously grating at this point. It feels like they just have no idea of how to write the bigger story and are delaying writing it until the very end. Not to mention how the last line about the Pyro Gemstone is still a mystery, and the line about the secret the Pyro Archon tells us in the Travail trailer also doesn't make sense so far. The nation's story ended up not involving anything about what we already knew about it, namely the Mare Jivari and Vennessa, which could have been cool.

[@Elyssa_00]

As someone who watches a lot of shounen animes, I hate the fact that Natlan Archon quest feels like the type of shounen animes that I hate. The Gary Stu as the protagonist, the "power of friendship" bullshits that I've seen too many times, the straightforward and superficial story, the lack of twist, depth, and nuance, the other characters act as the protagonist's cheerleaders instead of being actual characters, the plot armor, the Deus ex machina, etc. Those are the things that I've seen in a lot of shounen animes that I despise. Which is why I become more and more disinterested with Natlan Archon quest with each update.

[@aikivya]

It needed more build up and less dragged out sequences that didn't need to be there in the first place, like instead of making us slowly walk to the stadium show us what Capitano was doing the whole quest. Instead of having a party in the middle of the quest for no reason show us why the previous archons failed, build up tension. Instead of awkwardly dancing, again, for no reason, show us if Capitano succeeded, the final fight was so frustrating, lacking emotion and short, like everthing we did with Mavuika fells like it should've been possible doing with anyone else, cuz there were no consequences we didn't get slammed into a wall to feel like we might lose, victory was assured from the very beggining. Like why did we even need an ancient name if there weren't any consequences? Where we were hit and allegedly died the screen just faded to black mid fight. I had to rewatch the quest again to understand that we "died", that's why the flame go out bc we blacked out mid fight? The whole climax didn't feel like the climax at all, and Capitano just popping out after being gone the whole quest???

[@raptori]

Oh wow yeah if that was supposed to be Traveller dying, then that was incredibly badly shown... 😱

[@aikivya]

@raptori that's the only way to justify the flame going out and all the people singing the ode of resurrection

[@saurusness]

Omg that was meant to be the traveller dying?? I utterly missed that 😅

[@aikivya]

@@saurusness It's what I think at least, cuz otherwise it doesn't make any sense. Mavuika going in the sun domain giving her monologue to Xbalanque, we were in the middle of the battle then being in front of the flame, the flame going out and ppl singing the ode of resurrection. How else would u explain that portion of the quest?

[@raptori]

@@aikivya Yeah I just thought it all made zero sense LOL

[@needabettername4357]

I'm just going to copy my own words from a community post about Natlan: I just felt slightly disappointed that there was no friction between the tribes themselves in the quest. Rather than being contained to just Mavuika and Capitano coming up with plans to get rid of the Abyss/fix the ley lines, It'd be interesting if each tribe had completely different ideas of how to vanquish the Abyss from Natlan and started fighting over it, since the Abyss apparently adapted to each tribe's lifestyle to deal the most damage. Would definitely make the theme of unity hit harder, especially during the big war and final battle in the ending, like the tribes finally settle their differences when they're united in a single goal. And I'd say having characters like Kinich and Mualani still being friends despite this would fit the theme of unity, with them being chosen as part of the 6 heroes of Natlan in Mavuika's plan. Imagine if the characters involved had to do trials, resolve conflicts, and other stuff to unite them or gain the trust of tribes who have shunned each other over rumors, or even flat out lies spread by the Abyss, using Corrosion-Syndrome afflicted people as a mouthpiece? Then, the tribes would stop fighting or holding prejudice towards other tribes, like how some people say "The People of the Springs should get the Ancient Name for laziness" because of rumors. That would make for an amazing storyline and Tribal Chronicle. That's what the "power of friendship" thing should've been. On the topic of the war, about that dang balloon... I wasn't thinking about it until a lot of people started bringing it up, but now that I think about it, it definitely seemed out of place. It could have been cooler if it started out safe floating around, offering aid to people who are in trouble, then the balloon gets struck and the Traveler falls, forced to sprint around and fight through areas to get to the next place in need. It'd definitely make certain parts of the war feel more desperate/perilous before the Ode of Resurrection took place. Making the friendly NPCs invincible when you were on the field with them was also kinda disappointing. It'd be even more grim if they started actually collapsing or even dying onscreen.

[@idkatthispoint-s9s]

Tbh I was always expecting the war in Natlan to be inter-tribal conflict as opposed to a united war with against the abyss lol. It would lend the war in Natlan a more intimidating presence. Though I also understand how that would be extremely bad for character likeability, since the NPC's hating each other and only the PC's wanting harmony and unity would be kinda bad.

[@ronscomic]

I would admit that my tribe and the other tribe in the country never have conflict. Never even once, maybe happen somewhere but too rare to notice. feels more like nation rather than tribes to be honest

[@vr4893]

​@@ronscomicsame, and frankly, that's perfectly normal IRL. People unite against a common enemy in every part of the world, all the time throughout human history. OP's suggestions are more dramatic rather than realistic, which admittedly, sounds very fun... ...but at the same time, it can also be quite problematic. Some people would prob go: "Oh so hoyo think we tribesmen don't have a sense of unity? Racism" "How could a nation fight a common enemy for 500 years and still have time to fight against each other?" Etc etc

[@ziephel-6780]

Exactly, the themes of unity and teamwork feel unearned when it's offered on a silver platter through tournaments and trials, when war is about the struggle and the sacrifice to achieve peace and freedom. And some people want to involve Natlan in the next Lantern Rite when the Natlanese don't even know how to honor their dead properly? How absurd.

[@wibu_berkata]

I mean they have 500 years to settle down per tribe, so why there's a friction between tribes when the abyss at their worst? 🤔

[@amirul3233]

What bothers me so much is that it felt like the MC is not needed in the final fight at all. It felt so easy, with no sense of fear whatsoever. They always chant "In Natlan no one fights alone", but what did they plan to do if the MC hadn't come to Natlan? Would Mavuika fight alone then? What's the purpose of the 6 heroes being the 6 heroes if they're not going to join the final battle at all? They tried so hard to make the MC the Hero of Natlan it just felt like Natlan has forgotten that their own Archon was also in the battle. Luckily Capitano's sacrifice saved the story for me, otherwise it would've been horrible.

[@Elyssa_00]

That's what I think one of the problems with Genshin in general. They forcefully insert the Traveler into every conflict and put them in the most important place in each region, when there's little to no reason for the Traveler to even get involved.

[@amirul3233]

@@Elyssa_00 yeah it has always been like that. Genshin has great lore but their story execution often suck. The only reason people still tolerate them is because Hyv often end their lengthy quests with great cutscene animations. They did so well with the Sumeru and Fontaine's AQ, I wonder why they went downhill.

[@lytathewolf885]

@@amirul3233same here, I’m starting to think that the writer team for this region are entirely and completely different people imo, there’s no other explanation as to why they went downhill like this, it almost felt more like just a legendary quest to me, with how much they screened the whole “show don’t tell” technique that’s pretty much the pillar for any good storytelling, there’s just no other explanation

[@ostodvandlll]

I'm an Inazuma glazer (i enjoyed it in a guilty pleasure way) and actually didn't mind the Meropide section in Fontaine... And still Natlan felt just "ok" for me. The part with Capitano merging with the Lord of the Night (???) was cool, the peak of this update imo, but everything else was... Ok at best. I remember getting to the boss and seeing Traveler and telling my partner "oh this is gonna take forever isn't it". Natlan falls so flat on the characters!!! It's so disappointing, because I remember wanting half or more of the cast in previous regions. I think the only Fontaine character i didn't pull for in Fontaine was Clorinde because every single one of them was so peak. Meanwhile in Natlan I've only pulled for Kinich (who I like a lot but whose lack of presence in the AQ I'm very disappointed by) and Citlali (mostly because she helps Arlecchino+pretty pastel girl+more exploration). I *like* other characters like Mualani or Kachina, but there never feels like they have deep bonds between them that could be developed. There are hints but nothing that's really... There. Not to even mention their designs being so mid compared to what came before. If their intentions were to lower our expectations for Snezhnaya, they managed. And I sure hope Snezhnaya's characters aren't like... Tied to their region like Natlanese are. Because it's annoying as hell and it feels exploitative even for a gacha game. Also can we talk about how CRINGE that walk of blessings or whatever at the end was? Like I've been mildly miffed by the Traveler glazing for a while, but the photos and autographs felt like a bit too much... At some point I was just skipping through dialogue to see Capitano already and I almost never skip any dialogue in any quest.💀

[@ErewShraw-g6b]

i see alot of hate for inazuma but im with you on it. while fontaine is very good and has great emotional tension and good closure, it does not best inazuma in worldbuilding or environmental storytelling. inazuma had something special that no other region had, the only flaw was how poorly the archon quest was written in the final act. there was barely any closure or continuity with how events played out, and raiden ended up being super shallow in her SQ. but we still got yae, kazuha, itto, etc. i think every region (except natlan) has overall good writing but inazuma is a flawed masterpiece. it couldve been a game on its own, it captures an atmosphere not found anywhere else in the game. the writing is character-driven, it used every element of the game to its fullest potential. the world was harsh, puzzles and challenges hard, quests had perfect tension and pacing, incredible environmental storytelling, somber music, lore and history, everything.

[@AshAshashhhh]

Just a correction, capitano isnt dead, his body is still breathing and his soul is currently merged with the night kingdom.

[@saurusness]

Fair enough yeah :D

[@renegarcia2857]

Yeah, I really liked how he “cheated death” using the god of death’s curse against her

[@DexPyles]

I’m pretty sure he’s actually the master of the entire ley lines. Since by merging his soul with the master of the night kingdom they healed her and restored the leg lines in Natlan. That’s why natlanese people can now leave Natlan now.

[@b-trixangel198]

Tecnically, the lord of the night is using his body as a battery for life source, since capitanos life is infinite it was prefereable instead of mavuika who would someday die out, the "deatth" it was more of a soul death, as he isnt in his body anymore, just as he last said "we go together" his sould is in the night kingdom with his comrades

[@VANXEUS]

Not to mention that Hoyo intentionally gave his body the breathing animation when they could've made him static at the very least. Hoyo also intentionally introduced us to 2 different variants of Guthred -- the real one dwelling inside Capitano's heart who is pragmatic and cruel while the Guthred that helped us in the Night Kingdom - a noble and heroic guy was a creation from the stories of the Natlan folk. There was no need to introduce this story Guthred in act 5 unless this could serve as an important plot device in the future. Perhaps the real Capitano will stay merged with Yohualtecuhtin to continue granting her immortality and fix Natlan's ley lines whilst the story Capitano's soul could come to life, maybe becoming even more powerful depending on the stories the Natlanese people made about him, inhabit Capitano's body. The children listening to the storyteller in the stadium supports this theory. When our glorious king stands up from his throne, it's going to be the most epic cutscene ever lol also where is Capitano's second form lol

[@justinbailey1669]

I agree with a lot of what you said. I simply don't like how the characters were handled in this region so far. I think of the cast of Sumeru and how they all formulated a plan and took risks together to save Nahida. Or in Fontaine, how the characters all had their own version of justice and took actions upon themselves to prepare for the prophecy or hold Furina accountable for her lack of action. In each nation thus far, the main cast of characters all played significant, active roles in the overall plot and made tangible contributions aligned with their personal strengths. I feel like the cast of Natlan wasn't pivotal to the story. Sure, Xilonen and Citlali made the Ancient Name for the Traveler which was pivotal, but that's about it. Mavuika formulated this team of warriors from each tribe but, at the end of the day, they really only gave the Traveler inspiration to fight alongside her and weren't even physically present at the final battle. Kachina and Mualani have a sweet relationship which helped give us context to the inner workings of the Pilgrimage once we arrived in Natlan, but that didn't exactly do much during the final battle. It was just a little disappointing, especially compared to Fontaine and Sumeru.

[@tranquillite1351]

You are right about how a lot of us felt about the cast of Natlan. They weren’t pivotal to the story. I tried doing some of the tribal quests, and only Kinich’s and Mualani’s were okay by me, I am doing the Xilonen one currently and my god it’s boring …. idk how I’ll do Chasca’s and Citlali’s next. The tribal chronicles should have been more on how the playable characters help fix the effects of war and a bit of their backstory, but so far Xilonen’d has been very boring and unrelated to what Natlan constitutes as nation of war…. Sumeru, they formed alliance between desert dwellers and the scholars to help Nahida,l (except for Layla and Sethos) Fontaine casts were all worried about the sinking of Fontaine and everyone did their part in story (except Emilie and Chevy ofcourse)

[@GentleIceZ]

I'll be honest I really liked "Time to Party" bit, but I think that should have been the epilogue. I really liked how everyone talked about the people they lost and the dreams they had with them, and I think that would have been a more fitting end to the story then everyone taking a picture with the Traveler like he's in a mickey mouse costume at Disneyland

[@raptori]

Great point - I found it incredibly grating when playing it through even though I usually love those interactions, think you're 100% right that if it had been shifted to the end in place of the Traveler parade it'd have been great.

[@Axel-er1hx]

Mickey Mouse costume in Disney Land 😂, couldn't have said it better

[@zelktheinvader7874]

I don't think it would have been nice after Ronova showed up.

[@Moiyima]

Natlan was supposed to be a nation of war - and one that was ongoing for hundreds of years. It was supposed to be an incredibly dire situation, yet when we arrive at Natlan it's this super brightly colored, happy looking region, and everything seems to fall into place once the traveler arrives. It didn't feel like a war we resolved, it never really felt like one to me; in comparison I remember Inazuma being so dark and grim - just a hostile, hard to survive place, and in Natlan we have enemies flopping onto their bellies & falling over because their sword is too heavy, and the moment the traveler arrives this hundred year long war is suddenly resolved by their arrival in a matter of maybe a few weeks. At least that's what it felt to me, maybe someone else also felt similarly

[@ziephel-6780]

The fact that the Lantern Rite is going to be juxtaposed after Natlan's story makes it feel cheap to me. Natlan condemns failure and preaches victory, while Liyue honors sacrifice that the Adepti have given to achieve peace, even if it means never experiencing it themselves.

[@Slow1337ex]

it was extremely disappointing knowing we could have gotten a more serious, war torn region with badass characters and enemies and instead we got the goofiest, most childish region so far.

[@hakuboii3996]

@@ziephel-6780 I feel like the AQ had to compete with Latern Rite during this patch, or maybe Latern Rite just had a higher priority to Hoyo. The patch trailer also didn't give any excitement to this AQ.

[@hakuboii3996]

I also hate how the people of Natlan celebrated the Traveler first. Like, ok he's a hero but there was no scene showing Natlanese crying or acknowledging that after more than a hundred years, war has finally stopped.

[@ziephel-6780]

@@hakuboii3996 It's this, and also the knowledge of Lantern Rite coming up after Natlan is what's going to taint my personal experience in Natlan tbh. The main characters are side characters, and the sacrifices of minor characters are brushed off in the next acts. Do they mourn their dead? If not, then the idea of some Natlan lovers even suggesting to include Natlan in the next Lantern Rite is just laughable to me.

[@wooshiey]

i couldn’t agree more, honestly. i felt extremely dissatisfied and everything that was important felt rushed, but then things that didn’t matter at all felt really long. Capitano not being involved in the quest whatsoever other than at the very beginning for a minute and then at the end of course just felt like such a waste to me - i’m not even mad about him ending up in the state he’s in now - i’m just sad that he wasn’t there to help at the end (compared to his involvement in act 4) with the preparations at least… another thing that really bothered me was that Xilonen literally said she had to sacrifice her life to give the traveller an ancient name - right? or am i misremembering? this was left completely unaddressed! i was really weirded out by it to be honest. the party at the beginning and the parade bothered me the most. i was so fed up 😭 i share the same opinion with you in that acts 1,2, and 4 were actually quite good. not flawless of course but i just felt like things were well executed and i had little to no issues with any of the pacing. in comparison, this finale felt so lackluster. i’ve been rooting for genshin with all my heart but i feel that even my patience is starting to completely run dry. i’m sure it’ll be fine, but my confidence in the snezhnaya arch has dwindled. not to mention, the cast was really quite boring. unlike sumeru and fontaine, their interpersonal relationships were so underdeveloped, and overall as characters most of them just felt extremely bland. Capitano was the best thing about it all. i really wanted to like Natlan, and for the most part i do - but it’s hard to ignore the issues. anyway rant over. i’m glad to see other people feeling pretty much the same about it. just not sure if i can stay invested in this game for much longer 😭

[@raptori]

Omg I completely forgot about the sacrificing her life thing! Yeah that was just completely dropped... and then the ancient name was completely unused after it was forged as well which was so odd.

[@NeneND]

I completely agree especially the situation regarding the ancient name

[@DT-yw4ob]

Mavuika is such a Mary Sue it's honestly aggravating. Everything she does is perfect. Her "character flaws" are caring too much and being reckless, none of which ever give her ANY hardship as a result of her actions. All of Natlan loves her. Her trailer litterally turns into a music video with her as the protagonist and the Tribes' Heroes as her band members!

[@attilaedem101]

and the scary thing is, her Mary Sue charm spell literally works on TONS of real ppl.... which is both baffleing and sad at the same time...

[@DT-yw4ob]

@@attilaedem101 Hoyoverse has them trained to accept a boob window+1 Million damage showcases as the substitute for a personality.

[@asadelh.28]

I've genuinely never despised a character more

[@Axel-er1hx]

Even though I have different levels of love for all the previous archons, the fact is all of interested me in some way. Mavuika is the first archon that I have little to no interest in her character

[@skysunder9781]

Mavuika and Raiden Shogun are my two hatable Archons

[@KarpoCottage]

I feel like all the quests with Dain made it clear how Capitano was feeling, so his "death" made sense to me. What I didn't like is how he was introduced. Signora was introduced a year before she died and was regularly returning to cause havoc. Even if the interactions were small, I felt I understood her better by the end. I don't know anything about Capitano other then he's, "Righteous and Noble". His only flaw being a Harbinger. Wanderer mentioned Capitano's nobility was a latent danger, but from my perspective, he's quick to give in if you talk to him. I wish there was a little more complexity to his personality.

[@no-do4pv]

@@KarpoCottage I wish he had more screentime, it feels like the only reason he even exists is so Mavuika didn't have to die

[@kylemarlonlikesavocaship1810]

That IS the only reason ​@@no-do4pv

[@AceSilver78]

i am so legitimately frustrated that the traveler didnt die. Like literally WHAT was the point of going through aaall that trouble to make the ancient name to get resurrected if we werent even ganna die sdgbdsgbhsdbg like aaaaaaaaaaa. i was expecting it, so maybe they were trying to subvert our expectations. but maann, it leaves me feeling like the ancient name was just a big nothing task we did for no reason at all. x.x

[@GoobertheGooba]

apparently the traveler did die, but it was poorly conveyed visually

[@AceSilver78]

@@GoobertheGooba FR!? wow yea.. if so that was not at all clear cuse they seemed real alive the whole time to me hahah

[@thanhnlp2903]

I think Mavuika and the traveler were supposed to die before Kachina started her moving speech and everyone sang the Ode of Resurrection, but since this game can't directly show any character's death so all we had was the fire 😅

[@pannajohns5255]

@@thanhnlp2903 That doesn’t sound right though because just before that we saw souls agonisingly die out right before our eyes. The souls that were not accepted by the Night Kingdom and lingered too long would inevitably disappear, never to be remembered and perish forever, dying with nothing but regret and pain. The Ultimate Death. Also not to mention the amount of casualties we saw during the war, dead bodies of Natlanese, Saurians and Fatui agents. Don’t forget Chuychu died right before our eyes too.

[@AceSilver78]

@@thanhnlp2903 maann, youre probably right x.x but i wish they did something to make it a lil more clear. like the traveler like getting knocked out by the boss or them collapsing or something yanno :' ) cuse i was just like, whyd the fire go out? nothing even happened

[@MJDanvers]

I think my biggest issue with the Natlan AQ was what many others have said before me, and what this video sums up in the end. The characters. Specifically Mavuika. Compared with Fontaine, where even if you disliked Furina you couldn't help but be drawn in by the mystery surrounding her, we seemed to discover everything there was to know about Mavuika in the first few minutes of the AQ and the learning and mystery stops there. For the majority of the quest her motivations are 100% clear and she always acts completely the same. Capable, strong, wise. Flawless. With her being a prominent character in the AQ it impacted my experience/intrigue with the whole story. I could mention other things like the lack of connection between character's traits and even kits and their presence in the story/the plot, or the gender ratio which felt strange compared to previous nations and impacted by immersion, but in the end I think the lack of connection to characters probably sealed the deal for this quest for me. Also completely agree with the analysis of act V btw. The long party sequence, slow parade, the urgency that's told to us and not felt, and also Mavuika's utterly flat interaction with her sister. So many misses in this last leg of the journey, it's not surprising it wasn't impacting me like I hoped it would. I also felt the goofiness of the last fight and it reminded me of the "power of friendship" theme I felt was so cliche and un-genshin-like in the beginning of Natlan's story arc as well. I won't even start on Capitano's part in all this. There was no part of it that didn't disappoint me. And the most disturbing part is that it didn't feel like what was marketed beforehand, at all. I thank you for summing it up so eloquently, saurusness. Another great analysis video 👏

[@mk_gamíng0609]

Disagree on the Mauvika part. I feel like she is what she was meant to be , She was seeing out a plan 500 years in the making , by the time we meet her she has no time for doubt , she knows what she must do. If the game showed her to be incapable then we would question why the people trust her so much I feel like that would do more damage than anything. Also for me Furina was terrible until the end , where I liked Mauvika since the start. Also not every story needs intrigue , Fontaine was all about deception while Natlan is not , nothing in Natlan requires deception unlike on Fontaine where the entire plot relies on it.

[@SandersCat_yo]

i think mavuika is okay, but i completely agree that there's not enough intrigue in the story overall. the only remotely mysterious thing was the captain and his deal. other than that it was just "we must fight together to win this war" and they win in the end ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

[@liammiller299]

Personally, I think a story less heavy on mystery and deception is... well, perfectly fine. I think a lot of people played through Sumeru and Fontaine, got hooked on the mystery novel aspect of it and want more, but it's important to understand that not every story has to be like that. I will say, a large problem with Mavuika's characterization is that... well, we are literally entering into her story at the very end. It's like walking into the last 45 minutes of Return of the King without watching either of the other two Lord of the Rings movies. She's already done her lap around the hero's journey, we're not here to see that part. Instead, what Natlan divests from the Archon, it instead uses to characterize the land and people. Natlan is a story about family and civilization, it's about passing the torch from one generation to the next and embracing tradition and heritage. Look at Sumeru and tell me that the Akademiya Darshans got a fraction of the characterization that any of Natlan's tribes did. I'm not saying every part was good, Tlazolli and Allpa's voice acting fell really flat, but the stories themselves did so much to actually make the world feel alive. Natlan is the first nation since Liyue where I walk into it and I feel like I'm actually exploring a culture and getting immersed in their traditions. You are right on one point, I don't feel very attached to many of the playable characters. Mualani and Kinich are the only ones I felt really invested in after doing the Tribal Chronicles and main story, but by the end I felt immensely attached to the land of Natlan as a whole. It wasn't about caring about any one character in particular, it made me care about the culture and the people in a more general sense. It's honestly really disappointing to me that it's getting such a bad rapport. I don't want every archon quest and interlude to be a mystery thriller, give me other writing styles. I don't want nations to have no depth or story outside of that which is given to characters designed to be sold for money. When I walk into Schneznaya, I want stories with generic NPC children struggling to keep themselves warm in the bitter cold because their house got repossessed by Pulcinella and their parents got sent to Gulag by Pierro for smack talking the Tsaritsa. I want to see how normal people fare in the conditions of their environment, and I want to see more character quests like the Tribal Chronicles, where playable characters tag along to facilitate a story that doesn't revolve around them.

[@mumi1865]

Mavuika can be all perfect and "flawless" but what could've saved her from this is Hoyo giving her the challenge of so-called "flawless/perfect plan" which I think one reason why Capitano is a fresh addition because his presence in the story was supposed to challenge Mavuika's "flawless thing" to question her logic and way of thinking. But as the video says, Capitano initial reason of presence is just thrown out of the window so Hoyo can proceed to make Mavuika truly flawless with almost to no consequences of her decisions/actions

[@bookswithike3256]

@@mk_gamíng0609 You're _supposed_ to dislike Furina at the start. She's deliberately written that way.

[@nemesis9479]

while Natlan as a region (gameplay wise) is alright, the characters are just.. nothing. They are nothing more than simple set pieces and decorations.

[@attilaedem101]

THIS. Honestly, Mavuika is unironically the most glaring example, in a way a textbook Mary Sue... Reckless, overconfident, beloved by literally everyone, anyone who dont like her instantly start to like her after a few words of talking, ALWAYS right, always everything happening just the moment it need to happen for her, and the literal story from start to finish is her resolving everything... I dont mind if once in a while we, the players are only the side characters, but at least make the main character of the LITERAL STORY an actual interesting character... Because im not considering a generic fan-fic protagonist done a million time by even amatour writers "interesting", whether she has a motorbike or not.

[@Hitikuro]

​@attilaedem101 I remember there is a theory that they completely changed how she's written because she is a himeko aka dawei favorite

[@potatoAlive_207]

If i can be honest it is so weird, i want an explanations that every players seems to not look, Nation of Wars and Tribe yet these characters have technology the power is weird and out of place unlike the previous nations whom technology is explain and delved in. Natlan characters is the typical shonen out of place, i mean i get its dragon but how come they just show this now rather than the previous characters and many accept it or kind of glaze it, it miffed some partial expectations. We expect Murata like Himeko but we got the Try hard himeko cosplayer that is a mary sue hopefully get sued. Ngl they were trying hard to put these ZZZ or like HSR to Natlan characters it just fell off

[@summerrain2990]

@@attilaedem101 her character is like someone wrote a picture perfect waifu. U summarized her perfectly

[@Elyssa_00]

@@attilaedem101 This also apply to the Traveler, the actual PROTAGONIST of the story who is definitely a Gary Stu/Mary Sue.

[@hakuboii3996]

Probably a very generic shonen thing, but I rather would've Mavuika and Traveler get defeated in the final battle, overwhelmed that the abyss still has monsters, and then through teleportation shenanigans have everyone in Natlan fight alongside them like the portals scene in Endgame, with Mavuika and Traveler giving the final blow. Have Capitano also be there for the coolness factor. It would've fitted the Nation of War more better.

[@grant6864]

kinda off-topic but for me the worst part about Natlan is how terribly spaced out it is... 5.0, everyone's excited, we get a new region and the ability to travel with saurians, new characters and archon quest 5.1... no new region? i get it that Xilonen is from the Children of Echos, but they could've released Chaska's tribe to hype her up or something.. 5.2...... there's a short and mediocre interlude, there are new tribes, but at this point, many have stopped playing regularly 5.3.......... end of the archon quest, long awaited characters and the Lantern Rite, but still, no new region 5.4............. a character from Inazuma was marketed, so it means that the Colective of Plenty STILL won't be realased? come on! Iansan was the poster girl of Natlan, yet she's nowhere to be seen even halfway through the region! now yes, Skirk's release, Nod-Krai, these mysterious "new mechanics" they've talked about in the livestream, that's all exciting... but such a dry start leaves an awful first impression! they've killed the hype so quickly and I feel like there wouldn't be so much hate for Natlan if the players weren't bored to death...

[@KitaniRairakku]

Adding to your point, it feels like they've taken a huge step back in exploration in Natlan in general, undercutting the staying power of Natlan as a region. So many areas in Natlan are just empty. You'll see groups of enemies or saurians, and they won't even have a chest. And don't even get me started in that fog island, where it takes you past every single chest as part of the quest, so there is zero reason to ever return after completing it. So a huge chunk of the map becomes useless with like 20 minutes of play. Compared to Fontaine, which offered a completely new type of exploration (underwater) on top of what we were already used to, and it's just kinda sad to see Genshin going in this direction. At least when the story lacked, the exploration was usually still good, and plentiful enough to occupy your time. Meanwhile I 100% each region in Natlan the patch it was released without even trying.

[@bubblesparks]

​@@KitaniRairakku i thought I was the only one who felt this way abt the map!! I was first put off by the lack of iconic landmarks, as I have a very strong memory when it comes to iconic places. Natlan's map reminds me of Sumeru's desert. Too much empty space for no reason, but comes in a different skin. Fontaine has both good landmarks on the land and underwater. We have floating cubic water, a whole remnants of blown up research institute, the harbors, etc. Sea of Bygone eras especially exceeded my expectation, yet its only a small area.

[@teetc331_abhisheklonkar8]

There also isn't any new region in 5.4 and apparently we ain't going to sneznaya in 6.0

[@pannajohns5255]

@@KitaniRairakku I was so mad about the fog island. I was getting ready for a Tsurumi island experience. It was difficult and long but I liked it a lot; the story was emotional and depressing, and the mysteriousness of the island was well done. This island though? I genuinely cannot remember the ‘lore’ of that island anymore, something to do with two Wayobs I think? It was boring and a complete let-down. Reminds me of the Petricor and Bayda Harbour update. Petricor? Amazing. Bayda Harbour? My disappointment was indescribable.

[@gamerbeast3616]

i like natlan the pepole not liking it are haters in my eyes

[@davianwht5203]

I agree with you 100%. Also, at the end of the quest, what secret was Mav supposed to "share with the traveler"?

[@cankurt1696]

The secret was: Thanks for wasting your money on Pyro Archron and Granny and making the most successful banner of all time you whales. (Lol) PS: Da(rth) Wei(der) was here.

[@justinbailey1669]

"Winners burn bright while the losers must turn to ash"... isn't that basically just the laws of the Ode of Resurrection? Which literally everyone in Natlan knows about?? AKA not a secret??? "When the God of war shares this secret with the Traveler"... Kachina is the one who tells us about it before we even get to the Stadium for the first time, not Mavuika. "It is because she has her reasons" ... NGL I'm starting to think they kept this vague on purpose cuz they had no idea where they were gonna go with the story lolol.

[@ancalyme]

@@cankurt1696 "Most succesful banner of all time" Nah, it had similar ranking to Arlecchino's and only slightly edged out Lyney's. It's the best they've had since Arle for sure, but it's nowhere close to Furina, Neuv, Wanderer, Alhaitham, Nahida etc

[@Radiant450]

@@cankurt1696 you could say Mavuika finally has a flaw... being the worst performing archon patch ever and by a landslide too. Her and Citlali beat previous Natlan characters at least (and obviously, they all did quite bad), anyways here are some archon rankings and some others. Nahida and Raiden launch = 105 hours over tiktok Furina = 81 hours over tiktok Neuvi = 63 hours over tiktok Alhaitham= 69 hours over tiktok Xianyun =42 hours over tiktok mind you all these were solo NEW banners, as in accompanied by reruns on their half, and didn't have a paid skin for a super popular character (Hu Tao) either. Mavuika and Citlali = 33 hours above tiktok. brother this ain't good for an ARCHON patch. Also before any cope starts, Citlali and Mavuika are both to thank for this, it's not Mav on her own, the ratio according to paimon.moe is like 1:2 citlali to mav, while Furina baizhu was like 15:1.

[@cankurt1696]

@ancalyme Was actually meant sarcastically, I actually expected that Banner was because of all the dirty tricks that MHY practiced. But if that's really the case then I'm quite positively surprised.

[@thingnumbertwo2]

I finished Act 5 yesterday evening, and I could not have been more disappointed and frustrated with it. The "party" scene in particular is where I lost it, and I literally almost turned the game off during the fight. What a letdown. It certainly doesn't make me happy that I'm not the only one who felt this way, but it's nice to have my feelings regarding Act 5 validated. Definitely not Hoyo's finest hour.

[@gamerbeast3616]

act 5 was good keep haiting

[@whim5446]

turned the game off during the fight? so what was different from all the other fights in act 5 ?

[@kwuek]

fully agreed. what's INSANE to me is that if you express the opinion of "there were serious issues in natlan's writing and act V fell flat" anywhere that isn't reddit, you'd get absolutely trashed on and people would say "genshin fans try not to complain about everything challenge" and stuff like that. which is utter idiocy, because obviously i'm gonna complain about issues in things i care about??? what??? are people supposed to be fine with EVERYTHING hoyo hands out and take it with zero criticism??? it is alarming how prevalent this approach is to people giving any ounce of criticism towards genshin.

[@raptori]

Yeah - either that, or "well if you hate it so much then quit!!!" because I guess to them it's completely impossible to enjoy something while seeing its flaws. Utterly bizarre how incapable some people are of having a discussion about the strengths and weaknesses of games and other media!

[@kwuek]

@raptori it's so bizarre, because i don't see this level of glazing and bootlicking in any other fandom on the internet??? maybe i'm not engaged in other fandoms enough, but i like bungou stray dogs, jojo's bizarre adventure, and hollow knight among others. i don't see anyone getting hate for criticizing any of these things on the internet. i seriously have no idea what it is with the genshin fandom that's working like pheromones and keeps them glazing hoyoverse lmfao

[@raptori]

@@kwuek Yeah definitely - not to this level at least! I've seen some people get angry at people for critiquing films or whatever, but never seen it be so over the top or widespread. Super weird! Have to wonder if some part of it is Hoyo doing astroturfing at this point... obviously there'll be some who do love every part of it and struggle to deal with any criticism, but the volume feels off somehow!

[@summerrain2990]

​@@kwuek i think its also bc gi has like a hugeee ass fandom since its like the world's no.1 famous gacha games. So all the bad voices seemed like too much

[@Elyssa_00]

I don't understand Genshin fans who criticizing another fans who point out the flaws of this game and bring constructive criticisms to the table. Are they just too blinded by their love and obsession for Genshin that they refuse to see and acknowledge all the flaws that the game have (which there are tons of them)? Or is it because they have bystander syndrome?

[@elemo9117]

I am kinda dissapointed by lack of new maps during early versions of 5.X . Exploration is my fav thing to do and if i cant do that, I don't really see reason to play the game for now

[@bibliophelia83]

Welcome to the “you can’t make an anti war film” paradox. I saw that natlan was gonna fumble a mile away because they are sooooo intent on keeping the lighthearted tone. The people who died given names as if they actually mattered when they did not, the weird obsession with glory and sacrifice, the lack of teeth and not willing to kill off actual important characters unless your capitano. It was so embarrassing to watch natlan fumble its themes so hard and watch it be praised as anti war media. Macho first person shooters do a better job then whatever this archon quest was.

[@jennycatmystique7139]

Hsr penacony spoilers to follow: I really expected some messed up penscony like twist during the really awkward fan meet and greet after the final battle. Like "yipee, and through the power of friendship we win and everyone is in love with the traveler because they are so cool and the best hero ever... Why does it feel off..." I guess we dont technically know that the abyss would have that power, but after the interlude where we help people that are trapped in nightmares from abyss poisoning (or whatever they had called it) it seemed really plausible, and would have been SOOOOOO good!! The chills when i realized what was going on in the penacony plot, how discomforting the hollow victory felt, only to learn that it was because we had LOST... That was peak! I was almost giddy as i played the archon quest, just waiting....... But then... Nope. No the traveler really was apparently just dancing like a baffoon. That was all just so goddamn weird. . I couldnt put my finger on it. But my friend and i have been trying to figure out for weeks why we just dont care about the natlan plot. Mavuika being bland, and not really ever getting to know the characters well in the main plot really are some of my biggest gripes. At least in fontaine and sumeru i felt like the long standing and talking sections were letting me be immersed in the world and learn about the characters.

[@bobjohn4919]

Probably the most missed potential was Chasca and Mav. Considering if they went with the captain’s plan, Chasca sister would have lived. do you not think Chasca would have been pissed if she lreaned that. this could cause Mavs plan to fail with out one of the six and make Mavs choice have consequences instead of everything working out perfectly for her.

[@avej99]

I don’t get how the stakes felt so high in 5.1 but I never once felt any sort of threat to the traveler and mavuika in the final battle.

[@oanayu]

It's like Act IV and Act V had completely different writers, the difference is huge. I agree with everything you said. Even the lore drops fell flat for me after sitting through bad writing that reminded me so much of Inazuma. I also agree with the final boss fight, they really fumbled it with introducing a new element for the traveler, a character trial, a whole new boss AND dialogue. This quest had so much potential, the first 2 acts were done really well with the focus on Kachina and the urgency in saving her, and then while Act III wasn't my favorite simply because it felt a little slow, at that point we weren't feeling that urgency from Act IV. But Act V flopped for me, it felt very rushed and at the same time not long enough, if that makes sense? When I finished it, my first thought was "I feel like so much happened and at the same time nothing at all" and I think that sums it up well enough.

[@starpeep5769]

Ikrrr

[@TheJasperMage]

My theory is Natlan is the one region they didn't have an actual plan for when they started scoping out the chapters. Which is why there is so little information about Natlan before we got there. for suemru we had the academics who we met on dailies, or events, or world quests, who painted problems with the academia, and gave hint that the sumeru quest would centered around the academia. for Fontaine we had the inventors desperately trying to fix Fontaines energy supply to stop the flooding. And information that fontaines archone was quirky. thus the story would resolve around a theater kid archon to do with the waters of fontaine. I don't mention inazuma because I didn't play at the time, but I believe that the vision decree was well known before it launched. Sheznaya has probably the most pre information out of all of them, just because of the amount of fatui we interact with, their main involvement with the plot, and all the notes. like we don't know a lot, but we get the vibes, and we known genshin's conflict there will central around the gnosis. but natlan.... there was hot springs and... what? The Manga? you can't even find it on their website anymore. I think they probably didn't know what story they wanted to tell until they started developing it. Because there was no pre-world building, no laid down expectations, it was a blank canvas. and I think that has made it feel more out of place, like it didn't fit in with the rest of the world.

[@LogicalBomb]

Fully agreed with all of your thoughts in this video. I'm very much looking forward to your future video about the character designs and the shift in player audience, I've felt the exact same way for a while now and would love someone else's thoughts on it.

[@its.hcm.]

Isn't... Mavuika supposed to tell us something by the end? ( considering Dainsleif's trailer ) Did i miss something? She never told us anything or something flew over my mind...

[@orangenade3707]

There is a lot of proof that the quest was rewritten so it was probably left out

[@userAsiral]

Dain mentions the "secret" just a line before.

[@westriverside5243]

I'm willing to bet they're gonna make us wait for months until the next interlude archon quest or something in 5.6 or so

[@yabazyabacoffee]

as we continue i think the travail trailer will continue to age worse and worse

[@mijmijrm]

i liked the region itself. The main characters, though, weren't characters to identify with. They were abstractions. They didn't feel real, so there was no empathy. However. It could be a good break from the emotional roller coasters of the prev two regions .. perhaps a deliberate calm interlude before the immense emotional drama of the Cryo Archon Quest.

[@silverhawkscape2677]

We are getting Sneznaya in Patch 7 from Rumors. Patch 6 is actually a Break from the Archon Quest format.

[@tiekogalaxylatte8839]

@@silverhawkscape2677 Nod-Krai I'm assuming.

[@nathanielmorey2800]

The break is the entire year between! We have tons of fluff events, including the next half of this patch. These quests should not be unserious.

[@Axel-er1hx]

Honestly, I can't wait to get out of natlan, hoping the next harbinger wipes the floor with mavuika and takes the gnosis😂

[@starpeep5769]

​@@Axel-er1hxqueen columbina

[@kurodragon]

Yeah, idk, the start of Natlan gave me high hopes but after the first act it started spiraling downward at an insane pace. By the final act I felt like the characters were just... accessories for the power of friendship rather than characters we had a strong connection to. Kachina felt like the only character with any growth... I do feel like Ororon had some development too going from self-sacrificing to realizing his worth outside his death. I was hoping that was going to act as an opportunity to explore the idea that self-sacrificing even for the good of all is not necessary but then they literally backpedaled on it immediately for Capitano to die who was one of the closest characters to him. Most of the characters did not have any true goals outside of a tiny handful. You would think that there would have been higher personal stakes taken into consideration with them all being at war but like you said everything would just go back to normal immediately and it would be sunshine and rainbows, people dancing and having fun. It just really didn't keep the tension high like they were too afraid of actually showing the effects of war. IDK it felt cheap. It felt shallow. The final battle was... extremely underwhelming. We spent more time on the rainbow path dodging stuff than actually fighting and the intense plot armor removed all sense of fear of dying. I agree that the repeated animations for holding the sword was goofy. It was just... bad. The parade was super cringey. Maybe if they had us all dance together it would have been better but it felt so bad...

[@ziephel-6780]

Natlan reminds me of Viva La Dirt League's "Disappointing Endgame Battle." The similarities are too transparent for me. To think that Lantern Rite is going to come out in the next patch after this hollow story feels so cheap to me. Liyue's Lantern Rite is everything Natlan isn't. Togekon's 'Mavuika attends Lantern Rite' feels insulting for this reason.

[@MiyuKawasaki]

​@@ziephel-6780 lantern rite is completely unvoiced this time tho

[@ziephel-6780]

@@MiyuKawasaki That makes it worse

[@ziephel-6780]

@@MiyuKawasaki That makes it worse.

[@imperialsarcasm]

The story genuinely disappointed me; most of the characters I should care about (the heroes of Natlan, etc.) felt more on the one-dimensional side. The only one I truly got attached to was Kachina (Ororon, and Chasca to some degree; notice how they are the ones who awoke as heroes with significant story focus) because we actively saw her character development, as you said. But characters like Iansan, Mualani, Xilonen, Kinich, who got their character development before the main story even happened didn't really have much onscreen reason to be attached to them. I did like Act 4's execution of the war it felt like there were some consequences. Also a major gripe I had with Natlan was how often they constantly interrupted the main story to have a meal with [insert character treating us here], to the point where it became an expected trope (it also happened twice in mavuika's quest). In Act 5, the main antagonist of the abyss was also a one dimensional big bad evil, but I liked to some degree that Traveller was actually seeming somewhat relevant to the story. Initially I was glad that it seemed that traveller had died as it would have made the preparation of getting their ancient name have some weight, just for mavuika to tell us after that we never died but the power of friendship sang our victory into existence out of nothing. We have a party (again) to celebrate Traveller and Mavuika but Mavuika bows out of the celebration, however, I let this slide as I could see that it was a clear distraction while Mavuika heads off to potentially die offscreen as the consequence of using Ronova's power. The most interested I was in Act 5 was in fact the negotiation between Mavuika, the Lord of the Night and Ronova. It was genuinely interesting and I could see hints that Mavuika had a path of development that was available to her. She does not think about her own wellbeing (as recognized by Citlali) above the wellbeing of the people of Natlan and sees herself as an instrument to securing Natlan's future. However, this interesting discussion was interrupted by Capitano (who hadn't done anything relevant all quest, mind you) entering the scene, revealing his own interesting motivations to seek revenge against Ronova (which should have been better foreshadowed as we only find out more about him through a question and answer section with the Lord of the Night after he is already gone) and his reasons for sacrificing himself instead. I liked Capitano's backstory, it was good in my opinion, but he was still heavily underutilized as a character. HOWEVER, it completely overshadowed what could have been Mavuika's character development as after that she lost all sense of agency and just watched as Capitano conveniently appeared (essentially becoming her plot armor) to allow her to live on. Mavuika didn't actively choose not to sacrifice herself, she just passively did nothing and learned nothing. If another situation comes up where she must choose herself or Natlan she's still going to sacrifice herself because she learned nothing in the end. She doesn't give any thought to the future just has faith that it will work out somehow.

[@michielbrand4127]

SO HAPPY TO SEE I'M NOT ALONE! I also felt disappointed/frustrated by this quest. You summed it up perfectly!

[@VANXEUS]

I agree with most of your points. The Natlan Archon quest story so far felt underwhelming and left the players questioning if this was it and wanting more. All the marketing and potential and this was what they gave us? However, I'm feeling hopeful that all this is just a calm before the storm for a secret part 2 of Natlan's story because of the hints and nudges from the Ignition Teaser and Travail trailer. If we look back at past teasers for Sumeru and Fontaine, we're able to piece the puzzle together and connect the pieces from their respective Archon quests, but so far we're barely able to piece anything together to correlate with the Ignition Teaser. I'd like to believe that the photos of our main Natlan cast burning in the teaser will come into play in the future because of what Dainsleif said in the Travail trailer -- Victors will shine bright, while losers must turn to ash. If we analyze the teaser further, we could also infer that the tournament is taking place after the main story due to the unserious and cheerful tone in the first half, showcasing Kachina and Mualani promoting a new competition, Chasca looking sentimental and wondering "if she's watching". We also see a Qucusaurus emitting flames and flying towards Capitano after the photo burning sequence only for Mavuika to appear to the side of Capitano. We could interpret the qucusaurus as a phoenix, which symbolizes rebirth, reincarnation, immortality etc. Haha maybe this is far-fetched but it's fun to speculate. Mavuika seemed to be on friendly terms with Capitano when she asked him if he's brave enough to participate. It would not make sense for this tournament to occur in between their first meeting and the current conclusion of the story because of the dire need to quell the Abyss and save Natlan as Mavuika stated that "Natlan had a year maximum before it falls to the Abyss". Mavuika also said that this tournament is for winners only, and the winner shall take all -- what could this possibly mean? Her gnosis? I hope Hoyo are able to address all these "plot holes" in the future and not retcon the foundation that they have created thus far.. also where tf is Capitano's second form? All the Harbingers we've seen so far starting from the 11th had a second form but the 1st Harbinger doesn't??? Edit: I forgot to mention that we have not seen how the main ability we could utilize -- the time reversal ability from the Simulanka main story come into play in Natlan yet (correct me if I'm wrong). Perhaps we can connect this to the photo burning in the Ignition Teaser which could suggest we're going back in time to revert and achieve the best possible outcome for Natlan? Remember how some of us have randomized civilian deaths from the Abyss invasion? Haha maybe I'm stretching a bit too far here, but still it's a fun theory.

[@fr0ck360]

Iansan got benched the most in terms of screentime and relevance. We all thought she’d have more presence like other Travail teaser characters (Lyney and Cyno)

[@hayden8571]

What felt like a huge middle finger to me was all the build up for the *“Pyro Traveler”* they gatekeep him for 3-4 patches only to give mediocre skills. While locking the good constellations for boss fight only. What the hell is this ?

[@bubblesparks]

A strat to make ppl pull for the cool biker lol

[@hayden8571]

​@@bubblesparks people are going to pull for the archon no matter what... It's just pathetic to get a shit MC every nation.

[@hayden8571]

​@@bubblesparkspeople will pull for the Archons no matter what. But we're getting a terrible MC patch after patch. I think cryo traveler will shoot ice popsicles with his skill.

[@bubblesparks]

@@hayden8571 lmao, it'd be funny if cryo trav also sucks My only reasoning for that is bc 1) devs are too lazy to make a decent trav kit, 2) they want to make mc so bad ppl just opt to pull for characters instead hence more income

[@keiths2902]

I feel like the dragon was not introduced or built up. It’s just…. There.

[@spieds9994]

3:42 Personal opinion, obviously, but I wouldn't call it side-quest. It IS related to the main Natlan problem - aka fixing the abyss invasion issue, and characters surrounding them, especially I think it gave much needed time for Capitano (even if not that much) Also, no matter how anyone felt about Natlan AQ story, I hope it's not a hot take to say that Natlan had the best Presentation in terms of Archon Quests. The quests actually felt like quests, instead of just dialogue and story. There were multiple different gameplays scattered around, the shift between PoV happened for more than just dialogue, the cutscenes were probably the best genshin had and even in-game cutscenes (as in not cinematics) also seemed to have been stepped up a notch, with the good showcase being that tiny run between traveler finding Gosoythoth and starting the saurian switch gameplay. It's nothing major, but framing and animations actually made be believe for a sec that it was the start of a cinematic, which never really happened before in genshin. And that's not mentioning the NPC design variety (especially with the end of Ochkanatlan quest), the model movements (they were already starting to move more during Bedtime story, with fingers and wrists, but Natlan really leaned into it) and cinematography

[@raptori]

Yeah I had basically the same feelings as Saurus did, and 100% agree with you about the presentation. That might have actually contributed to my disappointment - the presentation felt like it was a step up, while the story didn't match it for me!

[@timothycontoveros4699]

I have a nagging feeling that straightforwardness of the story and Mavuika's minimal flaws are going to be subverted soon. Keep in mind that Mavuika still has the Pyro Gnosis! Whatever the Fatui do next in Natlan will likely test Mavuika much more and I think it will bring real tension to see a nation we fought so hard to save be in danger again. As for the Captian, while I did enjoy his story I think it's pretty clear that they could have spent more time on him. This may have just been because the writers felt that Capitano wasn't the kind or character who would monologue about himself (Ororon says he never talks about himself). But I also think (and hope) this might be because he will be coming back later and have a story quest to explore this in more depth, etc. He's still alive at the end of the quest technically so I feel like he'll come back somehow. The pacing issues you mentioned are interesting to me because I personally didn't mind it at all. It was a good reminder to me of what we were fighting for and how important it was to succeed. However in hindsight they probably did go overboard on that side of things with an hour at the start of the quest and then all of the stuff in the stadium and the night kingdom. Genshin does have a pacing issue, although I secretly kinda like it because it means more Genshin! But I can understand the frustration. My overall feeling about Act 5 is that I enjoyed it when I played it and want to like it. Although I acknowledge it could have been better I don't enjoy picking it apart really

[@82ilerya]

I shouldn't have had to push through that much bloated dialogue to learn the things they were trying to get across and also... they STILL haven't bothered to acknowledge WHY the Natlan people are very, VERY different and more modern looking and no one questions it. Yeah, I get that they hint at connections with outside forces but the people of Natlan LOOK like outside forces. They don't fit with the world we've seen so far and they have never acknowledged it and the people just accept it. And please nay sayers don't argue with me that Nahida's idle is her bounding on keyboard keys or the Akasha is like a bluetooth earpiece - these things still feel like they belong because Sumeru is told and acknowledged to be very very advanced based on their knowledge and the academia being there to learn from. It is acknowledged, even the idea that the thing inside the Narwhal in Fontaine looks like a Void Ranger from HSR is acknowledged by it being an outerworldly thing. I want to know why some of these things look like they could walk right out of our modern society in this very magical fantasy world. I still want to know why Ajaw (though annoying and screeching and I hate that thing more than anyone ever hates Paimon) is an 8 bit flat floating thing. They never touch on any of this in anything I've seen so far and I HATE IT. I could accept it being so different if they acknowledged why things are how they are - I have theories but theories don't explain it canonically in the world. I like their storytelling methods in other games - this one fell very flat for me. They have writers on staff that work on other titles that know how to write amazing arcs, some true cinema. Yes, they do have some overly flowery parts but they actually tell a good story so I don't mind it as much. But this act was a mash of words that makes absolutely no difference to what was going to happen with the plot. That party did NOTHING to build tension, it made me yawn. It didn't deepen my connection with the characters which they might have been hoping to do. That party should have been a respectful party AT THE END not before it even happened. This really felt like a let down. It didn't WOW me, it didn't do anything other than make me hope Snezhnaya isn't a total flop. I expect better from them because I've seen them do better than this in other games. I have very little faith in the team responsible for Genshin now - they've missed a lot of opportunities in the story, they don't listen to player feedback nor do they give us things we request because they still have the majority of the market. The number of long term players they lose out of frustration isn't even half the amount of new players they gain all the time. They'll bleed the players who want to spend dry as a cash cow for their other games until the end of time. Thank you for fostering a diverse conversation about this! It helps to see all sides and how everyone feels about the story.

[@saurusness]

Thank you for watchign and participating in a good convo 🤗💜I think the most frustrating part about this community is how difficult it is to have proper conversations where people disagree without it turning into a spitting contenst, because often people can't be critical of someting they enjoy as they think criticism = hate 😩

[@mk_gamíng0609]

​@@saurusnessopposite is true too you cant enjoying anything wihrout some stating that your tastes suck

[@John_II]

I think there's a shift in tone in Genshin for design. I can take Fontaine as a technological outlier in what is basically otherwise a renaissance-type world (basically pre-gun powder Europe/Asia) because it's explained in game why they have what is basically "electricity" and electric power, while no one else does. The Akasha is just magic really and it's basically explained well-enough (also it goes away after the version 3 archon quest). But Natlan with the guns, turn tables, motorcycle, and other modern day BS feels like Genshin's design team just isn't committed to the original design of Teyvat and while some may like the change, I do not. I don't know how Snezhnaya (year 6) isn't going to flop story-wise unless all the loose ends are tied up. That's supposed to be the end of the journey (unless we get Khaenriah as another year / region). Frankly, it might just be that there are too many loose ends to tie up and Hoyo won't be able to (or won't bother). Similar to George RR Martin's ASOIAF, I think Hoyo has painted themselves into a corner with a world that is paradoxically so complex with dragons, archons, the usurper, outside forces, the Night Kingdom, Ley Lines, the fake sky, the Heavenly principles, the Abyss Order, etc. and yet so simple - we're trapped in trying to find our sibling and when we catch up with them they've joined the forces of evil. It's time like this when I really wish Hoyo had tried to streamline the story a little more... each nation brings us closer to our sibling, but also farther away from them as our journey appears to be the opposite of their own. We have no reason to join the Abyss Order and yet our sibling is so sure it's the only conclusion we can come to. That's the plot point I think Hoyo needs to lean into.

[@malevolentmoose]

I'd be quite curious as to whether by "Natlan people" you're referring to playable characters or people of Natlan as a whole. I've found that many people's dissatisfaction (including my own) is caused not even by the differences between Natlan and other Nations but by Natlan's internal contrast between regular people and playable characters. It would be much more acceptable if we could see similar or somewhat toned down tech anywhere in the world used by NPCs - instead for the commonfolk the term "tribal" sometimes actually seems very fitting. Also, yeah, the excessive similarity to our real-world things. I don't think either of those can even be justified with lore and worldbuilding in a satisfactory manner.

[@yianantonio3980]

@@John_II i think they wouldn't end things yet in snezhnaya or year 6 tbh, genshin is too profitable for them to even think of ending the story there. they'll probably do smth like HI3 and do a part 2 after everything in teyvat is over

[@silverhawkscape2677]

Fun Fact: HSR Amphorous will be getting a year long story saga aka from 3.0 to 3.7 which makes sense because they'll be introducing the largest cast of Characters in HSR so far. The Flamechasers.

[@vangoghsseveredear]

However, HSR is coming off of the worst couple of patches in it's history and Penacony is widely divisive. Imo, if they don't nail the 3.0 story they're in big trouble

[@silverhawkscape2677]

@vangoghsseveredear I'm confident they'll name it. If the HI3rd Writer is at least the Director and one whole year to tell the story. The Writers have no reason to Rush Anything.

[@furuderika8093]

That doesnt sound good. Penacony suffered from bloated writing. They arent rushing, but rather crawling pacing.

[@summerrain2990]

​​@@furuderika8093 give them benefit of the doubt. Penacony story writing, despite its flaws, still improved from the first few Xianzhou arc. Hopefully they will keep improving in 3.0 Also, Amphoreus map is insanely huge. Like, 2x bigger than Penacony. It makes sense that the story would take that long. Hi3 used to doubt the 13 flamechasers story as well, yet they turned to be so good it gets ppl talking abt it for quite a while

[@evillness2360]

Feels like a romance patches get introduced in HSR

[@Guiltyyzzzz]

Usually at least some parts of an archon quest will make me not just zone out and do something else during a cutscene, but barely any of Natlan drew me to do that. Fontaine was the best at making me pay attention, apart from Metropide (only the times when Lyney wasn't on screen, because I'm a Lyney main).

[@lytathewolf885]

I’m honestly just done trying to defend Natlan’s weird development and creative choices, I’ve been doing it since 5.0 trying to understand the deal with the skin tones, reasoning the bubbly upbeat ambient as a reference to how Mexican culture sees death in a more positive light, cherishing their loved ones instead of mourning then, trying tirelessly to just immerse myself in the experience, but this? This weird ass end with no real stake, absurdly rushed moments, a freaking photo shoot/autograph session and wait until the god darn last second to suddenly say “ups I almost forgor Capitano has been in excruciating pain for the last 500 btw, hasn’t slept since forever because of actual SOULS screaming in agony inside his brain soooo there you go now he sacrificed himself, fixed every single problem in Natlan and now they’re a normal version, gg buh-bye have fun with his lifeless, soulless corpse that we’re gonna leave juuust right here!! That’s all folks!!”??? … I’m kinda pissed to be honest, I didn’t tried as hard as possible to root for a progressively bad nation just for it to be shoved and rubbed into my face as the worst archon quest since forever I- the so called abyss dragon Gosoythot was just a bigger shapeshifter enemy that he just easily defeated, there were no impactful moments through the battle, we didn’t interacted with the so called greatest avatar of the abyss and-… oh my god i just realized HE DIDNT EVEN HAD A SECOND FACE, the overall battle was just THAT easy and, dull, just a way to showcase the power of friendship and that was about it, it was cute and all though, not for a literal FINALE, but cute nevertheless, the whole thing felt more like a legendary quest to me And guess what? just to put the CHERRY on top they put the new domain right in front of the memorial with CAPITANO CARVED IN STONE IN IT, so you’ll be FORCED to see it every single time you need weekly mats and remember this Poor excuse and DISASTER OF A QUEST. GODS …. Alright I vented enough, but my point is, I’m really disappointed in all that Genshin has done, it felt like a waste of time and effort more than ever before now, and at this point I’ve just decided I’ll rush any content, ho back to just doing dailies and maybe fight stuff for resin or whatever, I don’t care anymore, for all I know and care about, Genshin’s best moment started and ended with Fontaine, and once we get to Snezhnaya, I’ll just pretend that Natlan never even existed, seriously, it really is that bad, this is gotta be the greatest L Genshin ever had so far and honestly? I’m partially okay with that, it was about time I realized this game wasn’t even that worthy See you around once Wriothesley rerun finally drops again I guess, that’s the only good thing worth the wait we’ve got left it seems.

[@Elyssa_00]

Here's the thing. While some of the things in Natlan are inspired by real world countries, cultures, etc., they're still their own thing. So maybe it's the best to see Natlan and real world countries that inspired it separately.

[@LunatheMoonDragon]

Thank god I’m not the only one who didn’t understand why the flame went out. Like, we were effortlessly winning the battle, then it cuts to the flame going out and everyone saying the Ode of Resurrection? Why? Not only were we winning but it wasn’t even made to look difficult. There was absolutely no tension

[@tea_5754]

one thing i always loved about genshin was how things that were foreshadowed in 1.0 versions and pre-release content (namely travail trailer) ALWAYS lined up with whatever new content was being released. before natlan you could go back to any old content and it would make perfect sense with the more recent content. harbinger's identities, khaenriahan history, etc... it was all so well planned! but natlan just feels out of place, rushed and rewritten, and doesnt feel fully like its part of teyvat because of that. when we arrive in natlan we learn that this nation was hit harder by the abyss than any other nation, which is kind of a big deal but we had no idea about that at all until arriving there? like no one in fontaine or sumeru was like "oh yeah i heard the abyss war in natlan was really the worst." even if it was a singular line in a world quest lol. there wasn't much lore of capitanos real identity beforehand either, like thrain is supposedly a great hero of natlan but we didnt hear his name at ALL before mavuika just randomly drops it during a celebration? im not hating on the writers because who knows what happened behind the scenes but unfortunately natlan just feels out of place to me as it was clearly crammed in with huge changes, it definitely creates a disconnect

[@Hyperbloomberg]

I felt there was wayyyyy too much yapping that did not actually contribute to the story (the very last storytelling scene with kids). I also felt the Abyss part was also more yappy and less action. I felt it could have been structured better right in the writing stage.

[@Renteka-Bond]

The AQ peaked with Kachina's arc, as everything after her rescue was pretty predictable. Mavuika and, as a whole, the lack of tension surrounding her or the region as a result of this predictability are the biggest issue for me. Mavuika is always right in her choices and there's no tension between the tribes at any point to fuel intrigue in the plot. At no point should anyone have believed that Mavuika would die, so her entire plotline was a waste of time in that regard. That said, the pacing for Natlan, for me, was pretty great except for the 2 padding Citlali sections, which still weren't nearly as bad as previous padding. Genshin is just too predictable as a whole since it seems to always go for the safest options in order to keep gacha players happy. ALSO, the way this arc completely dickrode the Traveler was lame as hell. Edit: Just finished the video and I do have to disagree a bit with the 'courage / death' analysis at the end. I think between Traveler's scene with Kachina where they lament that Kachina had to grow up so fast, combined with Mavuika's goal of ending the Abyss so that her people didn't have to live constantly fighting for survival, shows that, at least in lip service if nothing else, the goal was to stop them from seeing death in battle as a good thing as a coping mechanism and to allow the people of Natlan to have actual lives. Mavuika talks about how the Natlanese have basically accepted that their lives are based around this war and Mavuika wants to end that because it's a miserable existence.

[@no-do4pv]

The last act just felt so predicatable and clichéd..., Natlan AQ does have its moments and all but I think I'd still prefer Sumeru and Fontaine over it, also I swear most of the NPC's felt more likable than the playable cast

[@karyssapalmer3450]

Honestly, you perfectly put into words exactly how I feel about Natlan as a whole. I went into Natlan with decently low expectations. From the second I heard you would be able to skip from the Liyue archon quest almost directly to Natlan's, I expected a sharp drop in quality considering you completely miss the development and lore you see in Inazuma - Fontaine as well as the increase in writing quality. 5.0 was alright. I found the first part quite enjoyable if not just a bit underwhelming. As you said, it took quite a while for the main conflict to really kick in. The tournament arc was fun and I enjoyed watching traveler kick back with Mualani, but it felt very much like playing Mualani and Kachina's story quests instead of what I was expecting out of an archon quest, especially given the impression of Natlan we got before actually reaching here. I don't have much to say about act three besided I wasn't bored. I am quite fond of Ororun and I like Citlali but honestly that's about it. I felt similarly about act four. Many things happened, but none of it, including the invasion, really caught my eye or felt any more gripping / enjoyable than the other two acts had been. The invasion was interesting in concept of how we played through it and I definitely wish we experienced something a bit more like this during Inazuma's civil war, but I think at this point I was so underwhelmed by Natlan and barely invested in any character's that I really just felt like I was going through the motions. Playing it just for the sake of not falling behind in Archon quest patches. Act four did solidify for me through the issues I have with Natlan's inconsistent tone, which is something you mention later on. One reason I failed to become really invested in Natlan's conflict is because Natlan itself never felt that way. Like, yes, it's a big part of the story and the character's lives, but very rarely outside of serious moments like the Invasion did it really feel like Natlan is living through such a crisis for me. After the Invasion, everything goes back to normal which is an issue I've had for a while. Rather than giving off the vibe of a Nation staying positive and refusing to stop living and enjoying their lives while devastation is always right around the corner, it felt like there was no balance between happy Natlan and serious Natlan. It felt more like a happy Nation with an occasional serious moment. Natlan's interlude was also entirely disappointing. I wasn't looking forward to it at all by this point and I was bored up until they started talking about Ancient Names again to which the quest immediately ended. We've never had an interlude smack in the middle of an Archon Quest, so I was expecting a lot more from this out of character halt in the quest line; Especially given that the last Interlude, Inversion of Genesis, was one of my favorite quests to date and Perilous Trail was also amazing. It honestly just felt like another short side quest. At this point I was so thoroughly not enjoying the game that I was planning to pull for Citlali before she gets locked in the cryo dungeon and quit. Natlan's final act was the worst Archon Quest experience I've ever had, quite honestly. While the other acts ranged from enjoyable but underwhelming to at least i was captivated, I was bored and irritated the entire play through. The fact that a whole two hours of playtime is just us standing around and enjoying a party without any sense of urgency plays into my issue with Natlan's tone. I hoped for things to get interesting once we headed off with Mavuika but I was let down the second we got seperated because she went off ahead of us. Much of the act was boring and I actually found the part with the Saurian's very annoying. It might be my lack of enjoyment rather than the actual thing itself, but I died so many time's just flying across the area no matter what I did and the instruction's felt so unclear when we were supposed to use our special ability and I actually had to look up a guide. I've used Saurian's with no problem before this and at this point was entirely over this entire quest. The new boss fight was an awful experience for me. The combat itself was okay, but I was already annoyed so I struggled grasping new mechanics and it took so long for me to make meaningful progress. Not to mention the constant stopping for them to replay the same cutscene. It reminded me a bit of the unique mechanics Honkai: Star Rail weekly bosses tend to have, but just very poorly executed. After the fight, that section walking past npcs, etc was pure torture and I was relieved when I finally got to the end. Unfortunately, the quest Still didn't end there and I honestly barely payed attention to the end with Capitano. For the first time at all I was just skipping through the dialogue because I was just so over it and wanted to be put out of my misery. Natlan is the first time I actually disliked an entire act of an archon quest and was the worst quest line as a whole for me. I didn't even touch on loose ends and plot points that were hyped up just to barely make a difference, such as the Traveler's Ancient name. I'd even consider Mondstadt and Liyue better simply because I actually like the character and lovable characters can carry a boring, plain or underwhelming story a long way. To continue, outside of everything I listed, another reason I didn't enjoy Natlan is because I didn't care about any of the characters. I'm decently fond of Ororun and I like Citlali, but I don't care for the other's at all. None of them had even a fraction of the appeal character's from the other Nation's did for me. One character I want to elaborate on is Mavuika. As an archon, I find her supper disappointing for the simple reason that I hardly have an opinion on her. She is so boring and plain to me, and I can't even blame it on a dislike for her design. For example, I am not at all fond of Nahida's design and went into Sumeru expecting to dislike and not care about her, but came out super fond and I think she's incredibly well written. I still dislike her character design, but that doesn't at all prevent me from seeing she was clearly lovingly written. Mavuika doesn't have that benefit at all. Mavuika feels like Genshin wanted to write a strong, competent archon and forgot to do anything beyond that. It's so disappointing because she has so much potential. She went to the future and didn't get to see her sister grow up and never even found out what life she lived. She went through all of this intending to sacrifice herself in secret at the end of it all. She's a Human archon, which is such an interesting concept to work with considering Furina, yet they somehow made her one of the blandest character's I've seen in the game. She's 100% perfect. Things always work out and she shows no fear at all that things won't and it makes her so uninteresting. Nothing backfires on her, we never really see her become more than just Natlan's strong archon. It would even be more interesting if the intention was for her to be dehumanized like that in a way, but they really did nothing with it. Even her reuniting with her sister felt empty and bland as you said. She was so disappointing. I immediately go to comparing Mavuika to Ei, another physically strong female archon, and Ei is leagues more interesting than Mavuika. Ei unfortunately fell victim to Inazuma's pacing and is wildly misunderstood in my opinion, but there is so much interesting lore about her that they shove in your face, but Mavuika basically gave me nothing. I'm sure if I read voiceline's and play more I could change my mind, but the thing is, the archon quest made her so hard to care about that I'm not at all interested in learning more about her. It's such a downgrade considering Furina is one of Genshin's best written characters. Honestly the main "villian" of Natlan being the abyss was also an immediate miss for me. Every other nation had something entirely unique and although Natlan definitely put a unique spin on it, fighting the abyss as a main villian ( and it just being abyssal creatures, not even something like someone working for our sibling etc ) really wasn't it for me. All they had to do was use the fatui harbinger formula and they somehow failed at that too. Natlan completely missed the mark for me. I play Genshin for it's storytelling and lore and Natlan was so bad I haven't played a single world quest and I don't care to, which is wild considering Fontaine had me playing every world quest Immediately and theorizing for every new act and I love so many quests from past nations. Genuinely, I'm a bit worried for what is to come if Natlan is to be the marker of a shift in Genshin, especially since we seem to be straying away from the Travail Trailer, given that Iansan barely played a part in the Archon Quest unlike every other Travail character in past nations and we're making a stop i Nod-Krai before getting to Snezhnaya, which is the most anticipated Nation for me. I worry that the quality in writing will continue to drop and ruin it completely. And worst of all, we might be spending even More time in Natlan considering Mavuika still has the Pyro Gnosis. If they pull a Xianzho in Genshin by setting up a poorly written first arc to return for a second one I don't think I could bear it honestly. I keep quiet about my Natlan thoughts because for some reason any criticism towards it means people automatically assume you're a hater but this Nation was so awful I'm actually relieved to see someone feels similarly. I hope Natlan was just a one off thing. I love Teyvat. I love the lore and it's character so much. I want to see it through to the end. I'm one of like 5 people still waiting for a return to Mondstadt for Venti's Story Quest Act 2 and the Dandelion Sea etc. I don't want to drop this game but if future story acts are this unbearable I don't think I'll be sticking around.

[@raptori]

Great comment, really enjoyed reading - thanks for sharing! ❤ Let's just hope that Natlan is an anomaly and they're pouring more effort into Snezhnaya's story!

[@Elyssa_00]

Thank you for sharing your points and opinions! I agree with a lot of your points! I'm kind of looking forward to Snezhnaya, but after finishing Natlan Archon quest, I can't say that I'm not excited about Snezhnaya Archon quest. I also fear that it will become a failure like Inazuma and Natlan Archon quests. Seriously, Hoyoverse need to hire better writers for Genshin who actually know about how to do good writing and storytelling.

[@pwnz-l4c]

As an on and off player who only got back into the game in the 5.0 patch (I hibernated midway into Sumeru quests), I had the opportunity to play the Natlan Archon quests alongside with Sumeru's and Fontaine's. I don't hate Natlan's story but it feels like the only good thing I got out of Natlan were those 500 primos for finishing the quests and the overworld sanctifying elixirs. Fontaine's story was peak (there's no comparing). And while Sumeru had its share of yapping, I rank Sumeru's story higher than Natlan because the world building and the characters felt waaay more cohesive than Natlan's The Teyvat Chapter Storyline sets Natlan up as this war ridden place obsessed with victory and dueling above all else which sounded so cool. But what they gave us was this "power of friendship" ahh plot. Don't even get me started at the Archon, Mavuika's design just feels off. She looks like she belongs in Honkai more than Genshin especially because of her motor bike which completely shattered Natlan's world building. They can't just chalk all of Natlan's futuristic tech up to "Yeah Xilonen made it." They could have done so much more....

[@ToanKieu-bf8rv]

yeah, i barely remember what kinich does, the Natlan casts just... there, Citlali seem important, but in the end, the ancient name barely did a thing

[@BaselardFE]

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought the celebration part went on for far too long. I love Traveler, but my god was the autographs and photos so unneccessary, especially when there's clearly tension surrounding Mavuika.

[@gamerbeast3616]

was not unneccesarry hater

[@ancalyme]

THANK YOU I was feeling crazy how no CC was talking about this, and when they bring up Natlan being bad it's talking only about kits and nightsoul 😭 The Archon Quest is WAY too concerned about making Mavuika super flat and perfect. I disagree about the war quest having been good though. It didn't work for me at all, and the peak was Paimon pointing to a group of 5 monsters saying it was more than she had ever seen before. The whole thing felt performative and meaningless. Too much telling and no showing, moreso than ever before in Genshin.

[@tochichukwuocha1607]

Was I the only one that felt that this region had so many different types of beings and “god” and laws and rules that everything felt so overwhelming? Like we barely set foot in and all of a sudden I’m already learning about the night kingdom and a wyobe or whatever. Then we gotta talk to the lord of the night which is some kinda being different from the wyobe thing. Then the thing with souls, like I remember when they showed up after testing the ancient name and I completely was lost at the explanation as to why so many showed up. At one point I would just accept anything the character told me and not even think about if it makes sense or not. Like a “well I guess that’s just how it works here” Not sure if I’m just stupid or something 😅

[@raptori]

Nah I definitely felt the same! Still not quite clear on how they all work together...

[@bubblesparks]

The exposition dump on the first few act was definitely overwhelming..

[@Not_obligated2care]

I feel that way about exploration/puzzle gimmicks it annoys me so much…

[@akarifuyuki9763]

The Lord of the night is not Wayob? I forgot about this. What I remember is the Lord of night is a seelie which also called angel is Wayob....

[@victoriary4371]

I'm just upset about how they handled almost all the characters. What was the point of six heroes again? Kinich situation is especially bad. Remove him from AQ and nothing really changes. He doesn't do anything meaningful to the story. His only function is to deliver the information to us and Ajaw being a comedic relief, but half of the time it's not even that funny. It doesn't help that his tribe's quest is also among the weakest. Iansan is also done dirty. Like I really like her and I was really disappointed. They focused on Kachina so much only for her to be completely forgotten in the later parts of AQ. Natlan overall lacks meaningful connections and interesting dynamics between characters. Notice like there are almost no ships in Natlan. And most of them are such copium, because character writing wasn't great.

[@RoyalTfrii]

It felt so weird how they built up the abyss to be a looming threat throughout the story just to have it get 1 shot through the power of friendship and a big sword. If they really wanted to use "The power of friendship" as a plot device, then they should have gone full Gurren Lagann and made all the characters involved in the battle and put their lives on the line in a full on epic siege alongside the Traveler and Mavuika, that way it reassures that the abyss is still pretty much a threat even when everyone is powered up. They could even have a few sacrifice themselves to ensure their victory and have them resurrect later after the battle or have them almost fail but get a sudden boost in motivation to win.

[@augere5896]

The Traveller glazing was both unnecesary and annoying. Like yeah, the people are giving a standing ovation to someone who saved their nation, but they've only known for weeks at most. Meanwhile, their beloved Archon, who made far more sacrificies, acomplished the same thing, yet no one quenstions where she is. Worst still: she is actually heading towards her death. At the end, the storyteller mention the Traveller alongside Mavuika and Capitano, yet they haven't even gone through a fraction of the suffering or pain the latter too did. It's like, they keep on getting blessings just for being "them" without any actual struggle or effort.

[@AnneliesDeroy]

Mhhm, some things that bothered me during the last act: - During the indwelling of the saurians on the way to the final battle, there was basically no way to fail? I remember messing up and getting hit a few times but it still continued as if you didn't. Which feels weird...? Like why do I have to avoid getting hit then? - Yeah I agree with being annoyed at the slow running during what is supposed to be urgent! I remember something similar happened in Inazuma, but at least that felt like you couldn't continue going faster because of the glitchy/high electricity effects - And honestly, I wish the sacrifice part was before the parade. Like why are we celebrating when the biggest decision that was put off for 500 years hasn't been made yet? And, thinking about it, it was kind of obvious that Mavuika was going to survive, because why would they 'canonically kill off' a playable character? Still, it felt anticlimactic tbh - I figured we were going to unlock pyro powers after the final quest, but I kind of miss working towards fully ascending the traveler. Right now we basically got a free fully ascended pyro character, no idea how the powers work yet and bam, put into final boss fight...

[@raptori]

On that last point, oddly enough Pyro Traveler actually technically has 12 constellations. The six constellations we get in the quest are only active against Gosoythoth, but there are six others available too. The items you get from maxing out each tribe's reputation unlock the "real" constellations which actually work in the rest of the game!

[@AnneliesDeroy]

@@raptori Wow, that's definitely not confusing at all.. At least we still have to work towards unlocking it somewhat

[@pyronado4320]

I saw a streamer actively trying to fail the saurian sequence but the game just heals you back up if you're about to die

[@bubblesparks]

Mavuika's 'death' even though obvious could've been written to be very emotional tbh Like Caesar's sacrifice from ZZZ. Its so obvious but its payoff was so good bc we knew how much the decision impacts other characters.

[@Clem-s15042]

I was completely invested from Act 1 to 4, and I cried my heart out at Chasca's human sister's death (sorry, I can't remember how to spell her name), but I have to say I had mixed feelings about Act 5. It seemed oddly... simple? For a finale I mean... However, I was caught off guard by Citlali saying that Mavuika's fate hadn't changed and that she would die. Overall, I understand the criticism, but I have to say I still really enjoyed this archon quest because of the overall sense of solidarity and fellowship among the natlanese cast (but it's also because it connects with events in my life in 2024). Oh and I was also sceptical about giving the Draught of Lucidity to little saurian Ayo. 😅

[@haku1145]

I'm so glad to see someone else feels the same way I do about the Natlan archon quests. Overall, these quests felt to me like the Mondstadt story on steroids: more lore, more characters, bigger stakes, but essentially a "heroes must unite to defeat a force of evil" story that put too much on its plate to develop properly. Aside from the points you made in the video, the biggest issues I had with the story were the following: 1) Character development *outside* of the story's main plotline. Instead of learning about our main cast of characters through the vicissitudes of the war against the abyss, most of the time we spent with them was through mundane sidequests outside of this context (such as spending time with Mualani in the springs tribe, talking to drunk Citlali in a pub, helping NPCs with Iansan that we never saw again, the party at the start of act V, etc.). I wish we could've gotten more moments in the Night Kingdom, or like the war at the end of act IV, where we get to learn about the main characters through their actions against adversity. The only character arc I truly found great in these quests was Kachina's. I wish the 6 heroes would've gotten similar development, so that their hero titles would've actually felt deserved, and not like an abrupt "oh, congrats, you're one of the 6 heroes!". 2) Overuse of Deus Ex Machina It's not only Capitano, unfortunately. The Natlan archon quests are riddled with these: the heirlooms in Mavuika's room that got everyone out of the Night Kingdom, the unexplained device Citlali used in act III to look into Ororon's memory, the medicine Capitano gave the traumatized people in the act V interlude that's supposed to give painful headaches for life, but this side effect just... seems forgotten after the first case the medicine was used. There's a very cool lecture here on YT by Brandon Sanderson, where he talks about a key storybuilding framework he calls "promise - progress - payoff". The problem with these Deux Ex Machina-esque plot devices is that there is simply no progress. The story introduces a problem (and with it, and implicit promise to resolve it somehow), and then immediately introduces a tool to solve it (payoff) without doing the necessary development (progress) for the payoff to feel satisfactory. When there's no meaningful progress, it's easy for a plot thread to feel rushed or lazy. 3) Convoluted lore Ancient names, Wayobs, phlogiston, tribes, the Night Kingdom, the unique ley lines of Natlan... all these concepts are kind of just thrown at you in the first quest, and to me, it felt like convoluted jargon. Went in one ear and flew out the other. Now, I'm sure that after doing world quests and whatnot, you can get a much better understanding of Natlan's lore, but the way it was introduced through the archon quests felt like an info-dump. All that being said, I didn't hate these quests by any means. For the most part, I had a fun time; I simply expected more after how good they did with Sumeru and Fontaine. And one thing I will give Natlan credit for is that the gameplay was--by far--the best we've had from any series of Archon quests. The battles with Kachina in the first acts, the war segment, the final journey through the Night Kingdom and boss battle at the end were all amazing for me. Something something, thanks for listening to my TED Talk.

[@raptori]

Ayy Sanderson mentioned! We actually had a bit in the script about promise - progress - payoff but ended up cutting it since it didn't quite fit 😁

[@katierat]

"no, you can't! There must be another way!" I noticed that. 😂

[@princessochka3690]

Nathlan was garbo even by Genshin standarts (which are lowest of the low). Once again, world building without any structure where writers just put whatever "brilliant" ideas which came first in their mind, and stitched these planet-sized plotholes with "plot armor". Just like in every other region, story completely falls apart the very second you turn on a single braincell. Oh, and they already announced that Nod-Krai will have yet another "new" energy with unexplained gimmick abilities, straight out of writers 🍑. I'm seriously impressed - how (for their games) did Mihoyo manage to find the worst writers on the whole planet?

[@mumi1865]

I agree with so much points. While Kachina is not my most favorite, her character arc at first gave me some hope to Natlan Archon Quest, because it manages to showcase how warriors are not born powerful, skilled, and (shallowly) courageous. the fact that turns out xilonen is the one of the 6 heroes felt out of place for me because how lacking her arc is in the archon quest. we are forced to swallow over how "amazing" xilonen is without actually seeing it in the main archon quest. the 6 heroes are nothing in characterization and it's still a mystery why do they even chosen in the first place, it's like the wayob just do gacha and choose any random natlan people. some people would say that natlan aq makes them attached to the nation especially the npc but not the playable characters is imo admitting the amount of how badly written the quest is. these playable characters should be able to represent their tribe and history even outside their individual writing if hoyo has the courage for it. the 'N' in Natlan stands for the nation of NPCs

[@cankurt1696]

I'll be honest: After completing the 5.3 quest and getting Mavuika and playing a bit, I had never had the feeling that a region with so much potential could be ruined so much. I have rarely been so excited about an Archron quest before, only to find out that Capitano and Xbalanque are out, Mavuika feels like a Marry Sue, the stupid motorcycle can do everything which is so cringe, And that MHY is now so extremely exploitative that it's trying to take money out of our pockets with 2 new 5* units in one half of the patch (I have no idea how the banner works, but I assume it will be the most successful banner in history). I'm honestly considering quitting Genshin Impact because they've ruined everything legit and I honestly regret to pulling for Mavuivka. I've already finished with Star Rail because the power creep is just ridiculous and ZZZ was stupid to me from the start.

[@saurusness]

I decided not to pull for either Mavuika or Citlali for those exact reasons, and after my current welkin runs out.... I'm considering taking my first break in almost 5 years 👀 This game has been my passion for the past 4.5 years, and I don't want to see it fail, but right now I'm feeling unsure about whether I'm the target audience of Genshin anymore.. So I at least won't pay money for it.

[@threethymes]

@@saurusness I stopped buying anything at the start of Natlan. It meant I missed getting Chasca as I lost 50/50 and refused to spend! I just have not felt connected to the characters of Natlan. Fontaine and Sumeru had such strongly written characters and Natlan doesn't. Agree with most of your points (I don't like Kachina lol) and appreciate your thoughtful analysis.

[@stevem.9340]

@@threethymes Nah you'll wish for them back.

[@ricardocea4078]

​​@@saurusnessI'm curious, what makes you think you are not the target audience? Like yeah You didn't like Natlan story but it's not the end of the world, because the game hasn't changed at all, hopefully you like Nor Krai story in the future.

[@francescoettwedda-1875]

​​@@ricardocea4078She is right, genshin is mainly played for its story and exploration because combat and endgame are 0. If the story begin to suck... and the exploration being added less and less, what's the point of playing? The target now has clearly shifted to ultra casuals that want a walking simulator as a game and pull for cute characters, that's all

[@Somethingtheo]

I wish everyone was designed like iansan.. we can see iansan’s tribe leader and he already looks different from her so I feel like she just looks like she isn’t from natlan at all

[@Somethingtheo]

Also why did the boss only have one phase I didn’t like that. Also I thought the boss was supposed to be the pyro sovereign or at least the abyss mimicking the sovereign 😭😭

[@NatlanPosteo7]

It is expected that a long-term project would suffer changes, specially for the later regions... But I didn't thought such changes would be so obvious If you read the prologue of the official manga, see the travail trailer and the very little Natlan crumbs we had before the region's release, everything depicts a different Natlan. Natlan's aesthetic is very disruptive and is definitely something they created fairly recently; I'm sure if Natlan was released earlier, we would have gotten a map and characters with a very different look, prob. there would be actual pyramids (it's crazy how Natlan's logo, the one we see in loading scren, is a pyramid yet there's not a single one of these in the game), npcs actually wearing prehispanic warrior gear and similar clothing from prehispanic and african cultures... And idk about the plot itself, given that sometimes Genshin is too colorful and other times is dark, but perhaps show more of the war aspect and the pyro archon cheering for it (she's supposed to be the God of War after all, not the god of pacifism or god of preventing war). Also I find really odd the whole thing about there being multiple pyro archons, they've never stated or hinted something like this before and it feels against the lore established before, I get it that they wanted to do something different from the usual formula of "OG archon is unalive, so second generation archon is here to carry on the legacy", but I don't think adding a thousand Pyro archons was the best approach, like, whi was the archon before Mavuika, or even the ones after while she was on the sacred flame? So many archons,yet it feels like nothing changed and it would be no different than just saying that there's only 2, Ixbalanqué and Mavuika. They also barely mention Tenoch, the only Natlan big nme we knew from BP weapon and ofc there's only like 2 miniscule references to Vennessa and her tribe, like wtf.

[@KitaniRairakku]

You hit pretty much every issue I've had with this nation, but there's a few more points that are less major, but once you notice them, they really do add to why Natlan overall feels so strange. First off, the Saurians play no role at all in the Archon quest. We're introduced early on to the concept on saurian companions, and yet aside from Ajaw and brief encounters with Ayo, none of the playable characters seem to even have Saurian companions. The most interaction we get with a saurian in the quest itself is riding on Toto's head. And this is such a weird missed opportunity. Imagine if instead of just killing people outright, Abyssal corruption could literally corrupt and turn friend into foe. If they didn't want to mess with the established lore, this could even be something unique to Saurians, allowing for some tension during the War scene where the playable characters' saurian companions are rampaging, and the Traveler would be forced to choose which ones he has time to save by removing the Abyssal energy. Then, there's the tribes themselves. It almost doesn't make sense for the tribes to be the way they are. Why are there no fortifications, why are so many city entrances unguarded? And there are only a handful of watchtowers in scattered places to look out for Abyss attacks. Compare this to the environmental world building between Liyue and Mondstadt. The road between them is clearing traveled very often, with guards and watch towers protecting travelers from monster attacks, and yet this is just a feature of the land, not a temporary set up for a story beat. Even Sumeru had way more watchtowers to look out for The Withering, and they were placed in better strategic spots, whereas the ones in Natlan are often in the center of wide stretches of flat land instead of looking over a cliff or hill. And finally, the exploration. Natlan has bigger chests with better rewards, but it feels like a lot fewer overall, and much more emphasis is put on world quests. They're all shorter, and I really love the episodic nature of the Little One quests, but they auto trigger, and there's a lot of them in overworld. I couldn't explore for more than 15 minutes without triggering one, especially in the second area. I managed to avoid the main Ochkanatalan quest until I had already explored and unlocked everything, and it was honestly a much better experience for it. And then there's the fact that a lot of Natlan is just empty. Groups of saurians or humans with no chest, fewer puzzles, and much more reliance on players finding the saurian indwelling to be novel enough that they don't notice how little there is to do with that mechanic, especially once you start unlocking characters. It was just such a wild choice to me, to create a roster of characters so focused on exploring, for the one nation where exploring doesn't seem to have been a design priority. If Natlan was the biggest nation released so far, or if the Archon had provided a mechanic for using an extra phlogiston bar outside of Natlan, maybe this focus on exploration-based characters would make more sense. But it just feels like maybe there were too many people making too many things with no cohesion between them.

[@buthter]

i miss him,.,

[@tiekogalaxylatte8839]

my captain 😭

[@malvoleus]

Dead poets society moment? Oh captain, my captain

[@miyukihikawa18]

I miss my wife y'all, I miss him a lot.

[@albepaidman]

For who could be my top Physical DPS is now a long dream He and Eula was going to be my waltz dancers in combat. Capitano was sofisticate as shown by Mavuika's fight.

[@jujubees3360]

I feel your pain (Also now I wanna see someone draw Eula in Capitano’s outfit and Capitano in Eula’s outfit)

[@guystridsigne2691]

Okay - I have been nodding my head in agreement the entire time. Almost everything you said you felt was similar to how I felt. But then I got to The Final Battle with Goysothoth. Did I misinterpret what happened? I thought the reason that the Sacred Flame went out was because the Traveler died. Maybe it was just a coincidence, but there was an unavoidable attack before the transition to the cutscene with Mavuika. To me, I was under the impression that Mavuika resurrected the Traveler, and the Naltanese singing reignited the Sacred Flame to complete the Ode to Resurrection. This made the journey to obtain an Ancient Name more impactful. Now listening to your recap, I'm wondering if my interpretation of events was completely incorrect due to a fluke in my gameplay - which would just add to the disappointment in the chapter (it lacked clarity on top of being underwhelming). This was possibly my favorite part of the Archon Quest, and knowing that the Traveler DIDN'T die, takes away from my entire experience. Anyway, yeah. Natlan was a huge disappointment for me. Especially coming off Fontaine and Sumeru (Sumeru is still my favorite region, but Natlan is the best music).

[@y4nn1s14]

I think you're right, it's just that the way they show it is so quick and underwhelming honestly. Playing through this part I thought the mc just got caught in some illusion/prison since mavuika just let out a nonchalant "watch out traveler". Kinda crazy to think that the mc died and we got no cutscene for it

[@akarifuyuki9763]

I didn't even realize traveler died.....

[@raptori]

Honestly it was _really_ unclear, but in the conversation with Mavuika where you get to ask her questions, apparently she says: *Traveler:* About the Ode of Resurrection somehow taking effect before victory... *Mavuika:* Oh, isn't it obvious? *Mavuika:* The Ode of Resurrection didn't take effect at all. *Mavuika:* Your own strength is what allowed you to keep fighting, as well as the moral support from everyone in Natlan. ...like, _no_ Mavuika, it is _not_ obvious!!!!!

[@bighat8794]

Mavuika being a one dimentional flawless ruler and Capitano being absent and pretty much useless until the very end are the two key points that ruined the entire archon quests to me. Those issues plus a few minor ones make Natlan stands as a massive disappointment to me.

[@e_meyl97]

One thing I really loved about the Natlan AQ was the context about Natlan being built on memory. For a nation that references South American-African-Polynesian(?) countries, most of which are deeply changed because of colonization, there was something post-colonial in Mavuika and Capitano's debate in Act IV, the one where she says something along the lines of "Who are you trying to save, the land or its people?" That's why I also liked Citlali's story quest because it also talked about preserving memory through color. Ancient Names also reminded me of something in Yórùbá communities called oríkì poems, where new parts of the poem are added after each new family member's achievement kinda like how each Ancient Name bearer's achievements accumulate in the name as it's passed on. I wish they delve more on that in the future, or that they tried to incorporate memory loss in the AQ or something, I don't know 😭 they were really onto something and it just ended like that...

[@hannahtgp9421]

Another gripe I have with final act is that unless u watched livestream u wouldn’t even know who you are fighting. What I mean is that we only saw the boss as a ball in the sky then it just becomes this dragon with two swords??!! Like at least in Fontaine we saw the whale earlier to build up hype for the battle

[@jacoblol901]

i’m just confused honestly. it doesn’t feel like natlan’s over, i crave more. mavuika even mentioned a harbinger is going to come soon, but the devs said this is the conclusion of natlan in the 5.3 livestream so i’m just lost? will natlan be handled in an event or something?

[@GalarisTFM]

My biggest problem is the baiting of characters dying then the copouts they pull to resolve this. First was Xilonen confirming the forger needing to die to forge the ancient name, but wait not really because the Lord of the night is helping out makes it easier, but they just glance over the fact if this means this removes the life cost of the nameforging. Then they said specifically multiple time that it's Mavuika's death that is required in exchange for the power she used, and out of nowhere now someone else can step in and pay it instead. They didn't set up this as an option at all so feels cheap, if this was an option from the start a bunch of people should have been racing to pay it based on how belowed Mavuika has been showed. I have no problem with Captaino using the opportunity that Ronova is reachable right now to get a separate deal to save the night kingdom and get what he worked for, but that should have no effect on Mavuika's deal from what we knew before. It would have been much more satisfying story wise if Xbalanque uses his one day back to pay Mavuika's debt using a technicality of both being pyro archon then this non-set-up, out of nowhere copout. Or even tricking Ronova somehow by witnessing Mavuika's death 500 years ago would have been better then what we got.

[@Raspberryspy]

I can only get one conclusion from the Natlan main story: The Genshin doesn't really know what they're doing, story-wise.

[@Kyuubi13s]

It had such potential, I even got emotional few times with Ayo and later with all NPC from WQ in the Night Kingdom; but at that time I actually believed we are going towards the true climax of whole Natlan AQ (in the end, act 4 was the best one and better than actual ending). Instead, I never felt there was a time that Gosoytoth was threatening, or where characters were at the verge of losing or even struggling in this 'hard battle that needed 500 years to prepare'. Traveler literally got 'power of friendship' and if before the fight was easy, then it turned into a joke. Big bad was so easily clapped it's hard to believe Mavuika couldn't do it by herself all those years ago. We just win, go back and have yet another celebration.. Efortless and cheesy shonen storyline, but even those can be more complex than that. I'd cut or shorten the feast before the battle and instead give more time for Gosoytoth for more lore directly or smh getting to witness cataclysm as it was happening then. I kinda expected that we get to learn that it wasn't just imitation, but THE Pyro Sovereign, corrupted and out of his mind; and than since killing him would be what was causing the Sacred Flame to go out, Mavuika would have a dillema. Then traveller would try to absorb the corruption, which would cause return of 'some' sanity to return to PS but wouldn't heal him, yet to protect his old land and dragons of today (saurians) he'd chose to let go of grievances, give his remaining pyro power to us (unlocking pyro traveler) and ask us to get rid of him because without clearing corruption completely Natlan would never be safe. Alternatively Mavuika or traveler could have died mid-battle, they'd ask Ronova for help but she says she doesn't give a shit anymore, and smh they'd have to leverage power of gnosis and Xbalanque - he could've spent the rest of his lifeforce that he placed in Sacred flame to help us win by giving us power boost, bringing traveller or Mavuika brack from the dead, or appearing and helping us fight. I don't mind Capitano and Ronova part. I'm still hoping that Ronova 'gave up' so easily to Capitan because even tho she can't deliberately help (since she's already on HP shit list for helping Xbalanque), and so she's helping in this roundabout way. OH! And I hoped that '..when she shares this secret with the traveler, it's because she has her reasons' would be something that Mavuika tells us in NK where Paimon can't eavesdrop, that would affect the rest of our journey. Yes, I think Paimon is unaware, unwilling spy from Celestia.

[@kenobi_812]

Ever since the fatui trailer from back before Sumeru, i had absolutely loved Capitano, him being the only harbinger that really captured my attention unlike any other. I was so excited to finally see him in game, loving his theme of being a righteous and noble warrior with the same goals but differing views in methods. Then he was absent for most of everything, making me wonder where he was, and then we get his entire character story in the span of a few minutes with no build up, just introducing new things we had never heard of before. I had an uneasy feeling that his character would end up “dying” since before Natlan even released, but i thought it would be by being a main antagonist that ultimately dies in a duel of honor, perhaps for something like the gnosis, needing mavuika, the traveler and some potential great power we needed to heavily enhance our abilities to defeat him. I would’ve gladly broken my f2p status to get him as a character, i had gotten especially excited when we saw him with a sword and wielding cryo, thinking he was going to be playable. But now we’re here, him being basically dead, hoyo having dropped the ball on his backstory with a conclusion to the long story of one of the most powerful people still alive in teyvat being mildly satisfying at best. thats what has me frustrated.

[@xanaviii]

My main critique is the Traveler death was not conveyed clearly. It's clear from reading the text, but not visually. Mauvika says something like "watch out!" But it then messily cuts to the Mauvika walking scene. I disagree about the pacing though. You kept saying things were "urgent", but I didn't interpret it that way. They were kinda rushing, but unlike Fontaine, there was no hard deadline for them. There was no impending indication that the Abyss was going to strike again, they just didn't want to wait *too* long before their counterattack. Mauvika gave Xilonen+Citlali 3 days to make the name, and they did it in 1. So they did actually have time to spare, because even after it was made, you still had to wait 2 days for people to gather at the stadium. Overall, i thought Natlan was just solid. I don't think it was amazing, but also don't think there were any major disappointments, besides Captiano not having a bit more to do.

[@ArthurShotgun]

You're so right I didn't even notice the traveller died. Someone told me later like days after I played 5.3 that traveller died there 😂

[@JDavi-nl1rc]

I was pretty invested in it (i lowkey forgot that the interlude existed) because of act IV, and I quite enjoyed the time we spend in the night kingdom with all the NPCs because I recognized them from the tribe quests and it felt like a cool payoff for my dedication in filling up the magic night scroll thingie And then they made all the cool stuff happen SO FAST and made the thing with Ronova come out of nowhere and just killed off my favorite harbinger in a very unsatifying ending The old man telling the kids the plot of the last hour and the endless parade were the points where I felt like they were going to pull off a Sumeru act II or a Penacony from HSR and show that maybe we died in the final battle and it was all a dream about everything going as planned, maybe we could be revived by the ancient name, maybe we could have higher stakes about Mavuika actually dying in the end because Genshin does not kill playable characters and Mavuika's banner is right there staring at us I don't know, I don't really mind the power of friendship thing because of the ancestrality themes but it feels like they had an amazing cake recipe that just needed to be followed step by step and they messed up the amount of ingredients, and took it out of the oven way too soon. Mavuika's dialogue in the end and the stuff about the Mare Jivari from 5.2's event and the volcano for the world quest makes me feel like there's more stuff to come, even though Genshin is not doing the continuous narrative that HSR is doing, but like, how long is it going to take? 5.6, 5.7? We're certainly having some serious filler patches coming with the only new character releasing next being from Inazuma and all that's left in my mouth is a severe bitter taste of how amazing this could've been

[@chrysa_gnk]

I'm sorry when I saw that motorbike I burst out laughing like,,,, what is even going on

[@Alis-Lyris]

THANK YOU, i thought i was the only one being sceptical and thinking act 3 was actually the end of Natlan, and after that we'd have gotten an interlude with Capitano and Mavuika's death, but instead they completely focused on 2 celebration parties instead of making the boss harder or more impactful, i literally didnt feel shit when i was fighting it, i didnt feel scared i would lose or satisfied that i was finally facing the biggest threat of all, it literally just felt like a pyro regisvine typa boss........ EDIT: The ancient name thing, we spent like 3 ACTS TO WORK ON IT and we didnt even fucking use it, what was the point of it all?? and the 6 heroes?? why didnt they play a bigger part??? all this mess 500 years ago to get them reunited and then reuniting them in the present era just for them to turn on the Ode of Resurrection during the war once????????????????????? SO MUCH MISSED POTENTIAL. I rage at the thought that my most hyped region in the entirety of the Teyvat's prelude was reduced to this.

[@windeen]

I completely agree with everything. Long message below, you've been warned: I felt almost nothing about Ayo and his grandparents, or the other souls- they didn't do enough to make me feel something. I agree about the party at the start and even told a friend last night (after I was sure he completed act 5) that the "tell don't show" option, with a summery of events and still photos at the SECOND party was what would have worked. Also, agree that the story teller issue. It was also unneeded, at least, seeing it happening and then traveler walking off would have been FINE. I had expectations about this archon in particular. Mostly because of this line from Travail's trailer: "- When the God of War *shares this secret* with the traveler. It is because she has her reasons." I expected at least one mystery explained about SOMETHING after all these years. Anything Mavuika told us was something that either was common knowledge in the nation or something we learned from the non-god characters. I have been given no answers to any questions I had before Natlan. Aside from them telling us that the info on the dragon's in Before Sun & Moon was a complete lie, and confirming that seelies were angels, which most of us assumed if we pay attention to the lore. What do we get?: - One of the shortest AQ acts in a long while, they usually run 2-3 HOURS longer than 5.3's patch. - Party #1. - Walking a little girl (who is a skilled fighter, who likely knows the land better than her backyard) home for a short eternity to get an emotional sob story that wasn't doing anything because of the pacing before and after was cr@p. - Another 30 or so minutes with Vichama and other souls we don't know. Who we aren't connected to, to tell us something we knew if we played Venti's SQ: Non-Natlan souls (and even local souls- which was implied in eariler acts of Natlan- by stressing how bad off Lord of the night was) will disolve into nothingness without laylines. It's the whole reason Stanly's soul FOLLOWED "Stanly" back to Mondstadt, in Venti's SQ was because there was no where for his soul to go in Natlan. - Avengers assemble in the world of the dead to help us in place of Paimon (not needed, I actually like Paimon, but neither she nor the ghosts were needed to THAT extent. It actually made me wish I HADN'T done world & tribal quests before, to make it all shorter) - arrows are too much trouble to point us in the direction... No we need ghosts hand-holding us. - After that, defeat the evil dragon-wannabe: cool... but like you, no connection, forcing us to learn character combat mechanics when I'm trying to follow the story. Is too much. - Then another HOUR (give or take) of: Lumine's a hero! Time to party AGAIN! The photo shoot, the autographs, the dancing was a case of just show a still image of each, and tell us, then move on people. I would not be so annoyed if it had been an option given to me, to either party or skip to the parts after. If I chose to party, then it's my pain. I chose my punishment and would have no reason to complain. But NOOOOO. Gotta waste time with those very important usless aspects. - After that they RUSHED the ending with Ronova and everything else. I did not care in the least about Capitano because they didn't give us time to grow properly attached. Instead he tells us that it's HIS personal problem in the interlude and none of our business. That would have been the time and place to have us form an attachment to him. But it wasn't our business, so his sacrifice also isn't any of my business. I was more interested in Venti's aunt in the sky. Did she notice there was a descender under her 6 eyes? Maybe she needed a few more to see a golden haired problem in sparkling white clothes (I play Lumine, but Aether should have been just as noticeable) staring directly up at her. Up till now, it's been implied that Celestia (at least someone up there) would not be happy to have a descender strolling around. What was Ronova's reaction to what Capitano did? Other than saying he was using her rules against her. Again: No clue, she just vanished. I don't self insert into Lumine either. So it just felt like the pacing was cr@p and 2 parties in an already shorter than normal AQ finally.... that was also unneeded. If they actually left it at the usual 6-8 hours, I might not have been so annoyed. But we got a little over 4 hours with around 2.5 hours (or more) of useless content that meant little or nothing to me. Also, Dottore was AT THAT MEMORIAL- he was the NPC in green. If it was just his VA I would not be so sure of that. But WHAT he said along with that being his VA (and I don't even like Dottore) - that went right over the heads of most people that that was him. I'll bet most people don't even remember that he can change his appearance on the fly- we saw that in Wanderer's interlude in Sumeru. He killed Niwa and then you blink and he's shifted into his more well known appearance. So I am CERTAIN that NPC at the memorial was IL Dottore in disguise. Hoyo hasn't even done a good job of foreshadowing THAT. I was just so fed up by the time the photo-op and autograph cr@p rolled around. I had been REALLY excited. I stayed up all night to play through that story quest because Hoyo had caused me to expect a lot. A lot of what we got regarding the seelies & angels (as well as some of the stuff to do with the dragons) in this nation could have been drip fed before we got here, that took up a lot of time and was anticlimactic since we KNEW they were likely angels. Added to that that Before Sun and Moon is now almost completely useless. That implied there was a nothing in teyvat, that the dragon's were primitive and humans did not co exist with them. But Humans did. And humans were around when they were. The dragon's had technology. They had human forms, in all likelihood and could interact with the humans, if they chose. Before Sun & Moon was a complete waste of time. The only thing that can save Natlan for me, now, is Dottore getting involved (since he was at the memorial - and again: I hate his character. So I'm not a Dottore simp). Or possibly Enjou & the Marie Jivari might redeem it for me. I assume the tribal chronicle for the collective of plenty might include Enjou. I will say.... Mavuika's SQ was... ok. Nothing special. It also added to dampening the expectations I had for act 5, since her having a SQ act 1 after the AQ meant Mavuika would not die in the AQ. So that SQ being there at all was a spoiler for act 5. But I did ADORE Citlali's tribal quest. Mostly because I'm a fine artist under my real name, and it involved things an art lover would be SOOOOO into. Over all, I COMPLETELY agree with your points. It was such a MASSIVE disappointment after act 4 and considering that the Travail trailer lead me to expect something and I got a something else entirely.

[@theweirdestworldofoooooof2774]

Getting our ancient name felt so underwhelming 😭

[@judewatts6942]

I think my biggest issue is how perfect Mavuika is compared to other Archons. Every other Archon at this point has some flaw within their character that's supported by having their people compliment their Archon. -Venti is a bit too free and reckless that his people have at least the Knights and the Church of Favonius to instill some order to the nation. -Zhongli is too loyal to his contracts and is starting to corrode and realise his people depend on him too much so he gave them a chance to defend themselves by essentially "breaking a contract" of being their Archon. -Ei is too obsessed with finding the meaning of eternity that she realizes that her people have already found that meaning for themselves and is actually opposing her one dimensional view of eternity. -Nahida is very insecure and inexperienced being a leader due to her imprisonment but has had very loyal people around her to encourage her that she can learn more dispite already being the God of Wisdom. -Furina and Focalors probably have the most unjust job to do in the nation by constantly putting on an act to fool the heavenly principles but also lose the respect from their people who feel just as unjust. Meanwhile... Mavuika doesn't have any flaws. She's well respected by her people, had literally done nothing wrong, and is rewarded for her risky plan without any consequences. It would have honestly been GREAT to see Capitano and her butt heads and show how both their ideologies on screen more. The fact we got so much about how the 3 heroes equally saved Natlan together but their was barely any teamwork from the 3. It was just Mavuika's plan from the start and suddenly Capitano jumped in. Like what? I honestly would have loved if Mavuika was a bit hot headed and had a more of like an Itto personality. Hell they kept mentioning this personality in her Story Quest and it wasn't even that "terrible" as Xilonen claims it to be. Mavuika characterized as this honest, confident, but reckless Archon would have fit her nation so well due to how they have all this high tech stuff but they lose focus on using that high tech things for their actual communities and focus it on... making bikes and flying guns. Such a missed opportunity.

[@OmenLamb]

"and is rewarded for her risky plan without any consequences" The 500 Year plan that required her to sacrifice her Friends for the Sacred Flame. The 500 Year plan that required her to abandon her Family. The 500 Year plan that required her to sacarfice herself so she could resurrect in the future. Definitely a risky plan without any consequences, anybody in the world would have done it because there's no consequenses right. The hater boner for Natlan is crazy, I do love you mentioned Focalors of all archons🤣

[@raptori]

@@OmenLamb Those consequences could have landed and made it feel like a meaningful story ...but Mavuika genuinely doesn't seem to care. They had a perfect opportunity to show that she actually sacrificed something she cared about when she had that chat with her sister's ghost in the Night Kingdom, but they were just cheerful and didn't seem particularly emotionally effected. If they wanted to convey the idea that Mavuika sacrificed for this plan to happen, then that was the moment they could've done it for me. Show her feel the pain that she inflicted upon herself, show her sister comfort her, tell her she forgives her, and tell her it's all been worth it in the end, and then show her pulling herself together and taking that final step to completing her plan. Part of why Natlan Act V was so frustrating for me is that it'd only have taken some small tweaks for it to be fantastic from my perspective - and those changes would have likely made it even better for the people who did enjoy it as it is!

[@OmenLamb]

@@raptori Brother she was in a Time Loop for 500 Years, she already accepted her situation. Hine & her Family knew about her sacrifice and they supported her, no where was it ever mention they resented her for it so what would Hine forgive her for. They knew she was risking everything to save Natlan, Mavuika does not care about her fate, she said so herself. And you can't suddenly say "those consequences could have landed" when you said there were NONE at all, what is the point o tweaking something you said doesn't exist within the story. Read your original comment. You even said "Mavuika doesn't have any flaws." when the entire story revolved around her needing help, she even gave up on her Journey during the 500 year trip until Hine pulled her back, Tupac had to carry her to the Scared Flame before he died, remove any Past/Present Natlan character from the equation her plan is doomed, she is definitely not perfect.

[@raptori]

@@OmenLamb Was she though? They've never actually shown what happened when she skipped through time. If someone doesn't care about something that happens to them, then it's not a consequence.

[@zaboono]

⁠@@OmenLambyeah it is crazy lol, Focalors did exactly what Mavuika was going to do but went through with it. I feel like a lot of people just don’t understand Mavuika’s character

[@amouramarie]

*"Mavuika turned out to just have everything figured out, every action she takes has the best possible outcome, she makes no mistakes, and she just has no need for growth or change."* Oh damn, I can't believe as a writer myself I didn't even notice that. I guess I did _subconsciously?_ because while I never actively disliked her, there was always something about the character that made me think, "But... there is something wrong here." I had elaborate scenarios in my head that she was going to betray the Traveler at the end, not because she was a villain all along, but because Natlan's safety is her only goal, and she is(n't) a flawed character who will do morally questionable actions if she feels it's the only way. Damn, of course that's why I kept hoping she was going to betray the Traveler. -.- Absolutely had all the same thoughts as you in the end there. If this is the direction Genshin has shifted to in its storytelling, I'm afraid for the future depth of the narrative (and my continued enjoyment) in the game. This was some Beyblade level writing. The character designs are obvious cash grabs for "cool" with no consideration of the larger setting. And if the determination to bury the male characters out in the back garden IS a hint of a move to a more "waifu collector" focus for Genshin, I doubt I'm part of their desired audience.

[@raptori]

It's so easy to miss! And they had such easy opportunities to fix it - for example, when she encounters her sister's ghost, she's just chipper and happy and they have a nice little chat. After not seeing each other for 500 years... even though the sister is literally dead. Mavuika being completely emotionally unaffected by seeing her sister left me feeling utterly uninterested in her as a character. If, instead, she had broken down with emotion, and struggled to keep it together, before rediscovering her resolve and taking the next step, I'd have maybe cared a little more...

[@Dante45p]

her growth and flaw is being selfless and doing everything by herself since Natlan is a hyper collectivist sociality not wanting help is the flaw also they wanted to show off what an fully empowered archon in charge is like before fighting the cyro archon

[@raptori]

@@Dante45p That's not really a flaw, since it didn't cause any problems... it's like going to a job interview and saying "my biggest flaw is that I'm a workaholic!" It _could_ have been made into a flaw if her going off on her own had ended up causing problems - for example if she had been unable to beat the enemies while waiting for the Traveler, and had needed the six heroes to come to her aid at that crucial moment. Some small tweak like that would've made a huge difference!

[@amouramarie]

LOL Okay, apparently raptori and I wrote the _exact_ same thing. That's hilarious.

[@raptori]

@@amouramarie lmao same thought! 😅