How the genocide convention so often fails | It's complicated

South Africa's case against Israel over allegations of genocide before the international court of justice has raised a central question of international law: what is genocide and how do you prove it?
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It is one of three genocide cases being considered by the UN's world court, but since the genocide convention was approved in 1948, only three instances have been legally recognised as genocide. Josh Toussaint-Strauss looks back on these historical cases to find out why the crime is so much harder to prove than other atrocities, and what bearing this has on South Africa's case against Israel and future cases.
What is the genocide convention and how might it apply to the UK and Israel? ► www.theguardian.com/law/2024/...
‘Famine is setting in’: UN court orders Israel to unblock Gaza food aid ► www.theguardian.com/world/202...
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#Genocide #Israel #Rwanda #Palestine #ICC #UN

[@theGuardian]

Sources: 00:21 - 84 page document, submitted by South Africa to the UN’s International Court of Justice Source: ICJ www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf 01:31 - 1948 genocide convention Source: United Nations www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention%20on%20the%20Prevention%20and%20Punishment%20of%20the%20Crime%20of%20Genocide.pdf 02:18 - has only heard four cases involving the Genocide Convention in its history Source: ICJ www.icj-cij.org/list-of-all-cases 02:30 - Tried and legally recognised three instances of genocide: Rwanda in 1994, Bosnia (and the 1995 Srebrenica massacre), and Cambodia under the 1975-9 Pol Pot regime Source: The Guardian www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/feb/26/more-than-half-a-million-people-killed-in-100-days-how-the-1994-rwanda-genocide-unfolded-ntwnfb www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/05/srebrenica-25-years-on-how-the-world-lost-its-appetite-to-fight-war-crimes www.theguardian.com/news/blog/2009/feb/16/cambodia-khmer-rouge 03:17 - What sets genocide apart from other atrocity crimes Source: ICC www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/Publications/Rome-Statute.pdf 03:27 - ICC cases Source: ICC www.icc-cpi.int/cases 04:00 - The ICTR cases Source: IRMCT unictr.irmct.org/en/cases 04:48 - Two fugitives remain at large Source: IRMCT www.irmct.org/en/cases/searching-fugitives 05:04 - Trial followed years of obstruction by the then Prime Minister Hun Sen, a former Khmer Rouge commander Source: Human Rights Watch www.hrw.org/news/2014/08/08/cambodia-khmer-rouge-convictions-too-little-too-late 05:15 - ECCC trial length and costs Source: NY Times www.nytimes.com/2022/09/22/world/asia/cambodia-khmer-rouge-tribunal.html 05:18 - ECCC cases Source: ECCC www.eccc.gov.kh/en/all-cases 05:34 - ICTY Ratko Mladic case Source: ICTY www.icty.org/en/case/mladic 06:32 - South Africa vs Israel ICJ case summary Source: ICJ www.icj-cij.org/node/203454 07:10 - Provisional measure Source: ICJ www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240405-pre-01-00-en.pdf

[@diogenes.]

Mr. Borelli read all of this and came to the conclusion that nothing is happening, Mr. Whatever reads books waste of time

[@johankruger-gd7sd]

If you think this will deter anyone from taking israelis to the ICC - you are badly mistaken.

[@extremewrestlinganimation]

Well… this one is hard to prove because the USA supports it. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@TheRealBlueValhalla]

Support is draining Free Palestine Russia go home

[@TheZenGarden_]

SOP since 1492.

[@monishkanna1219]

yep, simple.

[@Rapport24]

Absolutely right my man

[@chickensalad3535]

Or because it doesn’t fit the criteria…

[@masteryas21]

Why is Israel so hard to criticise??? Why the international laws don't apply to Israel...

[@IamAnew]

Because they have a lot of damaging Intel on a lot of powerful people and they bought the U.S. government. Like...all of it.

[@MHMusic-Hub]

Exactly… why no sanctions on IDF?… they dont follow Geneva protocols for decades…

[@eyallevin6302]

Israel is not committing genocide

[@MHMusic-Hub]

It’s an obvious genocide

[@eyallevin6302]

@@MHMusic-Hub prove it

[@Ananasfruits]

It’s only complicated if the accusation of genocide is towards the West and its colonial ally - Israel

[@JCB576]

What a lot of people missunderstand is that the bar for genocide is deliberately set very high. It is not sth. that should be thrown around every time a war with a lot of victims occurs. People tend to missunderstand that what often applies in these cases are war crimes not genocide

[@180_S]

@@JCB576 But in the case of the Israelis, they have very clearly stated their intent and that intent is textbook genocidal.

[@wirelessbluestone5983]

I recall people were applying the same justification for China’s Uyghur genocide. Even Wikipedia removed the word from their article about the genocide of Uyghurs

[@laithmughrabi8990]

@@JCB576 killing people intentionally and declaring that through high gov. officials and soldiers? if this is a war, then germany won a war with 6000,000 casualities in 1943.

[@KarenSmith-zq4yi]

Funnily enough, Palestine is a colonial entity Even more interesting is the fact that the people claiming to be Palestinian speak a language which has no letter P and can't even say Palestine. But please, keep on ignoring facts.

[@salekhossain1582]

It is easy if the wrong person do it. But if it is done by friends then its not only difficult but impossible.

[@kristaporkhach]

It wasn’t simply the “ethnic cleansing of Armenians,” it was the Armenian Genocide - the first modern genocide.

[@geogeo2299]

It wasn't the first. It happened in Turkey concurrently with the Greek and the Assyrian genocides. Kurds had also been targeted occassionally by 1923.

[@mohammadsufiyaan5330]

Crime is easy to observe but hard to prove.

[@TheZenGarden_]

Its only hard to prove if the TRUTH is an obstacle.

[@mohammadsufiyaan5330]

@@TheZenGarden_ It's not the eyes but the heart that is blind

[@TheZenGarden_]

@@mohammadsufiyaan5330 Fyi; "Justice" is supposed to be blind, heart is emotion, which has no bearing on court proceedings.

[@leobvenzen8565]

Its only hard to prove because those who are presently in charge make it so!! The truth can never be hidden, and when hidden, its only temporary!!

[@PeidosFTW]

This is probably the most well documented genocide of all, from both the victims and the perpetrators too

[@ozlekosusturu]

Hard to prove or hard to accept?

[@PeidosFTW]

It is not even hard to accept, the US just doesn't want to, because they know it is a genocide

[@aliasmalias]

So saying genocide is hard to prove sounds like it's fair to critically question these things. Why do some countries make it illegal to question it then? What do they have to fear if it is the whole truth?

[@joyhappiness]

who is some countries?

[@aliasmalias]

@@joyhappiness Germany for example.

[@dr.victorvs]

They make it illegal because "just questioning" is not "just" questioning. It's an active tactic to shed doubt on facts that people won't make the effort to disprove. If you want to "just question" you can buy a history book, not spam the Internet and attack the victims.

[@dr.victorvs]

If you want to "just question" you can buy a history book or ask a history teacher. Shedding doubt instead is a PR tactic, not a learning tactic. Also the video is not about the material facts, which aren't hard to prove, it's about proving intent.

[@aliasmalias]

@@dr.victorvs What's the difference between some random person on the street telling me about some historic event as compared to a history teacher when I want to find out the real truth? Both people can tell me nonsense when I don't know the answer to the question I asked myself, so I should just believe a history teacher because of his title? Same issue with a book. It's just words someone wrote. I very much think shedding doubt is a learning tactic. If you just blindly believe everything you're being told, you do not ask any questions. If you don't ask questions, you will not learn anything.

[@agc5008]

Why then west condemns so easily when is any other country?

[@therocketboost]

This is genocide. Zero doubt.

[@simontemplar404]

Other than the lack of evidence for it of course.

[@tomservo5007]

and if h @mas surrenders, what you are calling 'genocide' stops.

[@englishbob9492]

And they try to avoid civilian deaths

[@therocketboost]

@@englishbob9492 Nope.

[@BabyGirlDontEvenPlay]

Not to mention the massive population growth of Gaza & West Bank since 1948

[@SquizzMe]

Because "justice" is an arbitrary human construct with no real authority.

[@mohamedali2858]

"The biggest insult to the memory of the Holocaust is not denying it, but using it to commit genocide against the Palestinian people." - Norman Finkelstein

[@jayavani7801]

Stop quoting him as if he is face of TRUTH 😅😅

[@mohamedali2858]

@@jayavani7801 Are there differences between the truth he presents and the truth you allude to and you are required to bring it⁉️

[@Dalladon]

@@mohamedali2858 I mean considering most middle easterners can't bear to bring truth of the Armenian Genocide, I can't for the life of me expect the Israelies to admit to their actions either. Guess that's just how the Middle East works, people die and nobody cares to take responsibility for it. Why should today's war crimes be any different than the ones 100 years ago? Oh wait right, the proportions are different, 10% of the total Armenian population in Anatolia, vs. 2% of the Palestinians in Gaza, ergo not total palestinians in Anatolia, making it a lesser percentage... yeah... well. Oh dear what truths we bring Inshallah.

[@passerby4507]

You only sound uneducated and dogmatic when you call whatever you like the truth.

[@mohamedali2858]

@@passerby4507 The uneducated is the one who is led by feelings of helplessness and pain due to his inability to respond objectively

[@diogenes.]

They should consult Mr. Borelli, he's the world leading authority on this particular matter and a lot of other things

[@emperornil1690]

He has 4 phd’s and 2 doctorates from what I understand.

[@diogenes.]

@@emperornil1690 all at 30 years old ? Guy must be a prodigy

[@xlifexwithxlithiumx]

DIvorcellyy is too busy reading a wikipedia page l

[@rikudotenin9773]

Israel has definitely shown genocidal intent since Oct 7th which is often the hardest part to prove as perpetrators don't usually speak so openly of their intentions. However, there are numerous statements of genocidal intent which should make it pretty easy to prove they are committing genocide in court.

[@chickensalad3535]

Except there isn’t. I’d love to hear your alleged examples.

[@rikudotenin9773]

@@chickensalad3535check south Africa's ICJ examples

[@wirelessbluestone5983]

@@rikudotenin9773 South Africa’s examples are misleading. I recall a quote by Gallant, the defence minister, about calling the enemy “animals” was clipped to omit that it referred to Hamas. There’s also the question of how those statements affected on ground operations. Also South Africa literally cited Quds News Network on Twitter

[@skyhunter996]

​@@wirelessbluestone5983there are numerous instances of using dehumanizing language which is one of the recurring components historically. Ministers calling for creating a parking lot ; 'leveling gaza', which they basically did (the north of Gaza is completely destroyed and Khan yunis doesn't have 10 percent of the buildings standing confirmed by satellite images), which shows not only intent, but actions following that intent. The amalek quote alone doesn't have to be explained.

[@PeidosFTW]

@@chickensalad3535 watch the video, it is in the first 10 seconds the explicit intent from a government oficial

[@ekramhussainmir3903]

US is relieved from this court of justice keeping in view of the mass killings in Iraq Syria Lybia, Ukraine

[@guillermotell2327]

Plus Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Indonesia, Panama, Serbia, Afghanistan, etc.

[@UserHandle454]

Hypocrisy at its finest

[@Budanevey]

_iT's CoMpLiCaTeD..._

[@wirelessbluestone5983]

Yeah cuz your “proof” are recycled narratives that are added onto Twitter videos and headlines

[@gil6875]

Laws must work upon everyone. If hamas doesn't follow the Geneva Convention then the proportional action from Israel should be not following the Geneva Convention.

"it's complicated" well well well...

[@MendeMaria-ej8bf]

Justice for genocide? I suggest punishment or even better: prevention.

[@zhirumi]

I thought it was obvious by the action itself, no?

[@wirelessbluestone5983]

War is horrific and also murky. There exists multiple explanations and accounts of possible war crimes. The issue is how much of the actions are from the top down, and how the statements of far right ministers are reflected by on ground operations.

[@zhirumi]

@@wirelessbluestone5983 so it all depends on intention?

[@ratpackenterprises1607]

@@zhirumi Literally yes.

[@dhrubaintisher8169]

This video was much needed.

[@gstrdms]

It was challenging in the 80s when nobody had smartphones with gps and livestreaming. Today, the evidence is overwhelming. You have examples of spoken and written proof of intent from citizens, politicians, military and even expatriates and international accomplices ON TOP of all the footage, images, documentation, whistleblowing of all the atrocities. This ain't back in the day.

[@Abdal252]

When it's about other's right, it's very complicated.

[@user-tm3ec8yu4j]

In this case, it is not complicated at all. See and listen to Knesset and other Israelis. And look at Gaza and the etnic cleansing.

[@simontemplar404]

Other than actual evidence of it happening of course.

[@passerby4507]

What's much less complicated is your brain structure and Dunning-Kruger effect in action 🎉

[@JCB576]

Are they beeing etnicaly cleansed? Why does Israel give warnings beforehand where any when they will attack? Why do they provide escape routes?

[@skyhunter996]

​@@simontemplar404they literally destroyed 3/4 of buildings. For all intents and purposes they completely destroyed Gaza.

[@laithmughrabi8990]

@@simontemplar404 the actual evidence, i see hospitals, refugee camps, "safe zones", bakeries, journalists and aid workers being killed everyday. and not forgetting the "innocent" israeli civilians blocking aid because the "peaceful" torah said so

[@beemarron3642]

But this video didn't delve into what intent really means...

[@shahinalam5686]

Yes! It is difficult when ruler committed it.😓

[@PurpleMonkeyDishwasher-69]

“You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.” - Inigo Montoya

[@laithmughrabi8990]

"anti semitic"

[@raquetdude]

Still unsure why it went to the civil court and not the other court.

[@jeffreygapol6263]

it's not complicated. you were just paid.

[@cleudesmonegatto1868]

The Guatdian abaixo a monarquia

[@takudzwachikowore6780]

Interesting

[@leobvenzen8565]

Was it complicated committing the genocide? How complicated was it when germany committed genocide in Afrika, or when europeans committed genocide in the americas? But to label genocide a crime and punish those who commit such heinous/barbaric deeds ,it's complicated!! Its not complicated, its only that europeans, the very same ones who have committed genocide severally, render punishment "complicated!!"

[@geogeo2299]

Israel is not "europeans". Also, I am a "european" Greek and I've commited no genocide. So be careful with your words next time you throw severe accusations around.

Well well well

[@Occ881]

Genocide,,,?

[@brianburgess3231]

Often the word itself is Redefined depending on whose applying it .. but it's not Israel in this case it's the Hamas

[@TheRealBlueValhalla]

Brian is wrong again

[@mymovies9172]

When your the first comment, to the comment section, this is the only comment you read...

[@TheRealBlueValhalla]

Madeupfacts

[@SorminaEriana]

It's not war, but terrorism

[@1100100il]

Stop trying to excuse SA failures at the ICJ. The only reason the ANC brought this case before the ICJ is to divert attention from their crumbling, failed state

[@radouanemegherbi3499]

They also use white phosphorus on densely populated areas

[@MHMusic-Hub]

They should be charged under ICC. Why are there sanctions on Russia but no sanctions on Isreal. Why are they allowed to break International laws & not follow Geneva protocols.

[@brianclarke2100]

Bullpuckie!!

[@englishbob9492]

Is it difficult to prove or is it just being misapplied? What happens when real genoc1de occurs?

[@thespoon1981]

Everyone is witnessing a colonization via stream.

[@thomasnorb4077]

No, the Israelis don't want a colony, they are stealing Palestinian land. Plain and simple. A "colony" would imply that the Palestinians get to stay under Israeli domination. They want to push everyone out of Gaza.

[@Iamusertoo]

It is also hard to go to the moon, implant a new heart, forget your ex. So? Hard means nothing for people, people can. There are people that does not know hard.

[@wirelessbluestone5983]

You can but where’s the top down intent and how is that reflected in the actions of the IDF

[@Iamusertoo]

@@wirelessbluestone5983 where?

[@briano6115]

Despite some comments here, this is not about Israel and Gaza, ITS ABOUT GLOBAL GENOCIDE. Get a grip

[@pallascat1743]

By the definition set out at the start of the video it certainly fits.

[@WaqarKhanHD]

i wonder why?

[@alivealive]

A lot of people die. If that not genocide then what?

[@pj-vu3cn]

You think lawyers can stop wars? Oh wait, this is _The Guardian._ 🤡🤡🤡

[@uudd369]

Why do they still wear those funny wigs in International Court ?

[@bearmarco1944]

Originally an English thing, nowadays an Anglophone thing that English-speaking countries across the world do. Since the ICJ and ICC are both primarily in English and the justices speak English and are from English-speaking countries, it makes a lot of sense. It's done in many countries, the UK, Canada, Australia, South Africa, Malawi, etc.

[@czarkusa2018]

It's not complicated.

[@Pou1gie1]

@4:20 When the history of the Rwandan Genocide is told, it is ALMOST ALWAYS told sans the explanation of WHY it occurred. It occurred as a result of of the NEO COLONIAL OCCUPATION. In a divide and concur strategy, the European group occupying the lands (I believe the Belgians) told the Tutsis that they had Yt European features and were lighter skinned so they would be given better jobs and more privileges than the Hutus. This, of course, led to animosity and hate which led to a war between the two groups. But this of course is ALWAYS left out of this history.

[@Marlin123]

Wait really?

[@ponzitizen]

Money and power talk... War crimes walk...

[@rananjaysingh959]

Guardian should find graduate to run their channel. If South Africa had asked in their petition for habeas corpus for production of hostages for examination and testimony along withvpetition to be heard against Israel, that would have reflected some sincerity in their endeavor. In any trial, victims of crime are themselves witnesses and material evidence too. Media outlets should seek advice before putting out things or it is.....

[@ben8557]

South Africa could not have done that. There is no provision in international law for "petition for habeas corpus." Kidnapping civilians is against international law but that doesn't mean its within the jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice. The genocide convention explicitly grants jurisdiction to the ICJ. The Geneva Conventions do not do this so the ICJ doesn't have jurisdiction. Also, Hamas is a non state actor and therefore not subject to the jurisdiction of the ICJ because the ICJ only covers states (there is actually a bit of a controversy about whether Hamas counts as a state actor in this case but the majority opinion is that they are not a state actor)

[@kallashnykov]

it really isn't

[@dr.victorvs]

Sure, but Israel had a government official admit it in an interview on a far right Israeli podcast.

[@wirelessbluestone5983]

Was that government official involved in any military action that violates IHL? Did he give orders to the IDF?

[@UserHandle454]

​@@wirelessbluestone5983there's thousands of clips , soldiers of IDF and government officials literally saying things that violate international law and 34k people are dead , there is many evidence, it's pretty obvious if you have common sense

[@ahmadbashirwali6549]

You Also forgot to mention that the court it "plausible" that Isreal is committing genocide

[@bastamtajik7]

Guardian of Israel

[@kazzz2765]

it’s horrible that some people want to change the requisites for genocide to be more lax. What is a genocide if every war is genocide? It’s absurd virtue signalling and ignorance.

[@Mud_AleX]

More like accomplishing orders... plain complicity...

[@passerby4507]

It's even more horrible we managed to create an education system where such sentiment is popular. Ask the ivy league.

[@sillylilstella]

so... you don't think war is bad?

[@chickensalad3535]

@@sillylilstellaOf course war is bad, but war and genocide are not the same thing.

[@passerby4507]

@@sillylilstella Pineapple on pizza is also bad, but we don't call it genocide do we?

[@laisaang]

Is october 7 an example of genocide

[@user-sh5dx5du1x]

Is this is a joke.

[@englishbob9492]

The problem is it can be applied to both sides

[@ValidatingUsername]

Get an honest assessment of Christian genocide in Egypt compiled and then we can talk.

[@MissAstronautCat]

How though? What an astounding statement

[@coderamen666]

Hamas committing genocide is a bit of a stretch. I can see the argument but it's wrong

[@user-vp2lz4qu5v]

​@@ValidatingUsernameWe can talk hasbara bs

[@A.A.Goldstein]

It seems to me that money is what is making it hard to prove genocie in JUST this one case.

[@SorminaEriana]

ICJ had decided to prevent genocide. ICC adopted the general principle law of international law ne bis in idem. Go on Israel🇮🇱

[@songnianzhang366]

not difficult at all. for example, blinken,genocide in xinjiang CHINA VS no genocide in Gaza. usa threatened icc officers for Israel. so, it is up to USA whether it is genocide or not

[@meme-qc6rn]

there is one being carried out by apartheid Israel as we speak

[@ahmadumeta4]

A lot of the comments here are so ignorant despite the information presented in the video, its quite unfortunate

[@felix-ve8jk]

(((The Guardian)))

[@hamidkhan3116]

Every international laws or human Values are conditional always subjected to Oppressors and Oppressed groups that is who is oppressor and Oppressed... The catagory are as follows Race Religion Cast Region Capitalist Left Far right Economic power .....

[@facehugger3]

Repeatedly warning people to leave an area before any attack takes place isn't genocide.

[@anthonymort5202]

Yes it is

[@MHMusic-Hub]

It is when they have no where to go & they attacked the place they told the people to run to & the refugee camps. They killed more children in 3 months compared to Russia in 2 years. There’s no justifiying what they did to Palestine.

[@KURENANI]

How do you evacuate a hospital in less than a day?

[@ionpop8]

In my opinion, the question of whether or not Israel committed genocide in Gaza boils down to: Did Israel purposefully target Palestinian civilians or only Hamas members, with civilian casualties being collateral damage?

[@kongou1912]

na, that would just be warcrimes. The use of food as a weapons, especially at the beginning and now again tho...

[@laithmughrabi8990]

remember when the germans won in 1943 with 6000,000 collateral damage.

[@abukar1145]

@@laithmughrabi8990If Germany won that would have been the narrative. History is written by the victorious

[@anthonymort5202]

Israel sees Hamas everywhere

[@laithmughrabi8990]

remember when the germans won the Auschwitz war with 6000,000 collateral damage?

[@darkvader8222]

Free 🇵🇸 PALESTINE

[@chickensalad3535]

The video’s opening quote was very obviously referring to Hamas and a lot of people don’t seem to realize this context.

[@mmarques2736]

It was not, that's your cognitive dissonance working to help you cope with it. You could never target specifically Hamas members when cutting food, water and electricity, the idea itself is absurd, unless you think the entire region is populated only by Hamas.

[@chenarex]

Although Israel should end the war, the term genocide is inappropriate. The civilian casualties are horrible, but are mostly on account of Hamas hiding among the population. There have been some terrible sayings by government officials, that have not translated into acts.

[@kinnikuzero]

🤡

[@josephtoronto9050]

Today on terrible takes on the Internet 👆

[@adamheuer8502]

@@josephtoronto9050 Today on I don’t actually have a response to someone’s point. ☝️

[@Oversabitv]

@@adamheuer8502what point do you want that has not being made by the iseralis themselves? Western hypocrisy has never been so obvious and shameful.

[@chickensalad3535]

@@OversabitvWhat do you mean?

[@brentderkson6858]

Not even close to a genocide

[@stroodle1100]

Even Stevie Wonder can see Isreal is committing a GENOCIDE in gaza.

[@wirelessbluestone5983]

Is Stevie wonder a genocide expert now?