why Path of Exile is based on classes

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Josh Strife Says is the official Twitch clips/Highlights channel for Josh Strife Hayes. This channel features Best Moments of Josh Strife Hayes, Best of Tangent Tavern Podcast with Callum Upton and sometimes clips from Session Zero DND Group which Josh DM's (Dungeonmaster) for players RageDarling, BillieTrixx and Callum Upton. Josh often talks about multiple MMORPGS like World of Warcraft (WoW), Final Fantasy XIV (FFXIV), Guild Wars 2 (GW2), Runescape (RS3), Old School Runescape (OSRS), New World, Diablo, Path of Exile, Tera, Otherland and other games such as Skyrim, Oblivion, Dragon Age. Some of the best content of Josh Strife Hayes is his React videos with Asmongold reacts and Zepla.
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[@qwfp]

josh is such a theater kid ong

[@cuddlequeen3225]

I've been out of school for six years. No more classes.

[@overdrive112]

Ahh 1 second in and the first question is already the best possible question you could ever ask a video game developer in an interview like this I love Josh!

[@IronBrutzler]

I know it is the vision of PoE and such but it would help if they reduce the Items but make the items that drop stronger. Look at Grim Dawn with its last patch. Items do not drop that much but when they are usable and not just trash that not even got picked up.

[@Bloodark124]

It's highly debatable, because the vision of POE is meant to be hardcore as as concept and design (even for standard league). Which means that the RNG is true. I do like that some games can be hardcorel ike this, and POE should be one of them. Because there isn't that many of them around. As you mentioned, there's other games like Grim Dawn or Last Epoch and others that are more casual. However I do think they can adjust this and make it more interesting by saying that slaying monsters with certain modifier should have drop items where if items are magic or rare, they should have a decent amount of increased chance to roll those modifiers. E.g. a cold monsters (uses cold skills, cold resistance) should drop magic or rare items that tend to roll cold modifiers like cold resistance or cold damage.

[@amethonys2798]

Tbh I wish more things worked under the method say Delve does where absolutely nothing drops until you accomplish X thing. Having to stop and pick things up and evaluate them mid "event" is incredibly annoying and takes me "out" of the game. Would that lead to getting literally nothing if you brick a map and use all portals? Yeah, sure, but you'd also probably gain more in the long run since you're far more likely to pick up a stack of 22 alchs than 22 individual alchs. Another solution would be to make it "opt out" where at any point you can open the "box" holding all your items (like hitting the end delirium button to cause the rain of items) at no penalty for doing so that way on your last portal if things are going south you can just cash out then before you die.

[@viperdragz4403]

@@Bloodark124 It's not really hardcore if all the drops don't show up as anything but a hit to game performance due to item filters. The rng can be fine but theres no reason to drop 100s of useless items per map that wont show up on anyone's item filter, when they could simply cull all of those and drop fewer but better items.

[@ziusthefirst5387]

For me identifying an item is similar to finding a chest,box or a bag of stuff and opening said chest,box or bag of stuff and seeing what goodies are inside. I like it and I like to be the one who does the identifying. It's a personal experience.

[@fattymcgirthy9829]

After opening thousands of boxes and making about $3 I decide to let the next guy have em

[@JohnDBlue]

For me it's the opposite because I have no idea what's actually worth identifying, so the entire process just introduces bloat and makes the game that one small bit less fun. During acts it's what you described to an extent because anything can be an upgrade mostly, but even then I don't find it that enjoyable.

[@ziusthefirst5387]

@@JohnDBlue It's all good 🙂

[@ziusthefirst5387]

@@fattymcgirthy9829 lol enjoy 👍

[@yeahright420]

In the end game wisdom schools to me besides being toilet paper is alchemy shards.

[@Iamwhoiamifiammyself]

The problem with removing identifying is : filters would get really sofisticated to the point where you wouldn't even check the items to pick up and know they are valuable instantly. Which is actually a great QOL and saves me from wasting time while playing the game and adding more fun, so yeah please remove identifying

[@Iamwhoiamifiammyself]

lol just finished the video and he said exactly the same thing kek

[@thefrenchbastard1646]

and that is why i don't play the game but all i hear from ARPG fans for the past 10 years is looting is the most importent aspect of an ARPG and now you are telling me you guys have been luying all along and just use mods so you can ignore the looting as mutch as posible?

[@electricheart7965]

@@thefrenchbastard1646 much more complicated in the case of PoE. Most of the super endgame stuff is crafted because of how low the chances of certain mod combinations are. It's much more prevalent at the start of a new season but quickly tapers off within days or maybe a week or two. There is still looting involved, just of a different kind. Mostly ''currency'' and unique items. (worth noting that currency in PoE work a lot different then most other games. It's only currency because the fanbase treat it as such and the player driven economy is based around it. In actuality, it's more of a barter system based on crafting materials. The rarity of those materials and usefulness determines the worth the community sees in them.) A big problem with the current item drop system is how unbelievable rare good combination become later on to be useful. For a season, we had somewhat of a fix with it thanks to a seasonal system called Reconfiguration where you could put two items together and it would create an item based on the two base items. That made item drops worthwhile as long as they had even one desireable mod on it since you could, with a lot of luck and many base items, isolate the worthwhile mods and create good/strong base items through that. Without this system, it's basically worthless to ID base items in PoE after a week within the season. There are always a few exceptions to the rule, because PoE is just so big and complex, and there are a few things that are just too much to properly describe to someone who isn't familiar with the game. But this is one of the current ''problems'' the game is facing. It's not too big of a deal as the game gets around the problem through other systems but yeah....It would be nice if they brought back the Reconfigurators as that was a pretty decent fix for that issue in particular

[@NoraNoita]

@@thefrenchbastard1646 I hate rare items because they always roll low or not the right stats when I personally ID them, and I have had to resort to just using the Chaos Vendor Recipe and then buying BiS with said chaos orbs later, it's a silly system, I don't like PoE anymore really it's boring and you can't really target farm items for your builds, drop rates of Divination cards are abysmal.

[@bidondhuile2740]

one of the pb, rare are so bad i did hide them all at around 60/120 map completion. other is most stuff you pick up is not identifaible like currency or divine cards or whatever. uniques you have to look the grpahics but allmost all of them are garbage. so an ocean of garbage is dropping on you so sure in diablo it made a lot of sense but in poe 1, would need a looot of fixing

[@blazernitrox6329]

Re: identify scrolls. One of the complaints I've seen with Last Epoch - and one I didn't realize I agreed with until I saw someone say it - is similar to what Jonathan was saying about how ID'ing an item lets you double-dip the dopamine and how near-misses can also add to that effect. I don't know if Last Epoch has a higher fraction of "valuable" item drops compared to total item drops than Path of Exile - I suspect it actually does - but if _feels_ lower because nearly all of the items that drop are transparently not worth your time the moment you see them, whereas item drops in PoE at least have the possibility of being valuable until you ID them, so every lootsplosion comes with the high of the gamble (at least until you become a jaded high-roller that's clearing maps in a minute tops and getting 20div raw per map).

[@MaxTaleYT]

I don't see how making filters only show good drops be a bad thing? You're literally just transferring the joy of identifying to the joy of actually dropping the loot. The joy of seeing it on the ground and knowing it's good, listening to the sound that it makes if you're using a filter... Just a plain, simpler and IMO more elegant way than having to constantly have a slot in your inventory being useless to hold an annoying item (scrolls) for a "dopamine hit" that feels good the first couple of times, but gets old really really fast.

[@amethonys2798]

Yeah idk what he's talking about. If they truly wanted you to be excited by the "mystery" of an item than everything would be unidentified including currency. Every filter in the world makes Divines and expensive Div Cards/Scarabs/Etc. blow out your headphones with the alert, yet that stinky doodoo ring with like health regen and thorns only on it DEFINITELY needs to not be able to be filtered efficiently. I don't even bother with something like Abyss since 99.9% of abyss jewels are outright not worth picking up and the horrendously bad ones aren't filtered so you "have" to check them.

[@BeneMaNiaC1337]

I agree. Last Epoch proved to me that you can still get excited about an item drop even if it is already identified. Right now my lootfilter in Path of Exile I doesn't even show me rare items anymore because most of the good stuff gets crafted anyways and the chance of finding something very good is very small. I think it is the other way around: I'm not excited about unidentified items anymore because I'm assuming that they will not be good in 99,99% of the case. Even if I find something very good I'm so desensitized that it takes me some time to realize I found something valueable. I have to add that I'm talking about my endgame experience. What Jonathan said is true in the early stages of the game or when path of exile was freshly released (first few seasons).

[@monopoman]

While they don't lock you to it where you start on the passive tree has huge repercussions for what you can do, sure you can be a Witch and use purely melee skills but you will pale in comparison to a Duelist or Shadow doing the same thing. Ascendancy is also a huge factor on what class people go with, the Witch ascendancies sure don't benefit being some wacky build.

[@amethonys2798]

I mean you say that, but the best marauder builds are still casters which do not naturally benefit from MOST of the things at his starting location.

[@prosamis]

The freedom *is* there is the point, and the complex interactions between many many different things is what make some of the best builds. Being "locked" is very vague here Cause all you need to do is wear a crown of eyes and suddenly all that spell damage is equivalent to attack damage Then you use energy blade to transform all that excess ES into a sword Congrats: melee witch "but the ascendencies don't help!" I can think of a million ways elementalist, for example, can be used for an attack build Even necro has its applications

[@cinnabun117]

I absolutely love the challenge of making the class least able to do a thing, do that thing. My marauder was my spell caster. My witch was my melee class. So this answer is great.

[@hellboy19991]

With the identification of rare items, it really annoys me that the justification is hoping there'd be a good one. But there are just no good rares on the ground. My problem is that the technology is there to generate "well rolled" rares. Back in Heist and Ritual leagues you'd get "well rolled" rares from rituals and blueprints respectively, which usually are reasonably well rolled with higher than average tier modifiers. If they absolutely want that to be the case, tune down the rare items to drop by a factor of 10 (by the time you hit maps) and then have every rare that does drop be a well-rolled one. Anything that doesn't show up on my loot filter might as well not drop at all unless it is some form of guaranteed drop like boss uniques that don't show up on filters.

[@daanstrik4293]

Rares can be worth picking up in the first 60 or so hours of a league. The rest of the 3 month period they’re usefull for the chaos recipe and nothing else

[@ahazu1445]

yes but usually you can get a mid tier rare and just do some crafting with harvest reroll or meta crafting and make it into a really good item, now if you dont know how to craft then i agree that most of these item are useless to you

[@hellboy19991]

@@daanstrik4293 chaos recipe is a good idea beyond the first 10 hours of the league? That's not worth your time for at least a couple of years.

[@daanstrik4293]

@@hellboy19991 Not the first 10 hours of the league. The first 10 hours of a players time in the league. Some people start a week after league launch. Some a month or even two months after league launch. For them chaos recipe is still usefull. Identifying rares meanwhile: is not. Since even the cheapest rares on the market will vastly outperform what you find on the ground after a day or two. At that point its better to use chaos recipe, get 2c and buy one of these much better items.

[@JordaanM]

The exception, of course, is for fractured items. I'm convinced that crafting in the game would be more enjoyable if rare/magic item drops were fractured by default, and finding an unfractured one was the exception. Combine that with being able to burn 1000 alts for a specific mod on a magic item, and you have a reliable way of getting 2 specific affixes on an item, and the end game push is to get 6 perfect affixes.

[@gabrielmay4305]

Stereotypes as an anchor/foundation for creativity is an idea that I think applies pretty universally and doesn't get enough consideration now

[@asmosisyup2557]

There's a strong market for "unidentified" items for people who want to gamble on perfect roles, so while it has no benefit to SSF players, the system has a purpose (if not the one it was originally intended to have).

[@deinernst1235]

What happened to Questions 3 and 4 ? I came from the first video but cant find a video with Question 3 and 4

[@Keksgame]

ngl, i read that as chess at first glance and was ready for a wild af answer

[@timothy9393]

I think they should make most rare and lower items drop identified. Items that have rare mods (like incursion only drop for example) and all uniques should drop unidentified.

[@timothy9393]

Means that each time you drop an unIDd item its an small bit of excitement

[@MateusEstaticaTomagnini]

The ideia of separating the kill mosnters mode to the build and identity itens mode, having all of the drops drop and the end of a map is a ideia. but i'm sure they have think of that. is more of a trade off than a solution.

[@thrrax]

Love the Dungeon Siege series (third game less) precisely because the characters have no class. Sure, they had archetypes for easier gameplay, but by the end of the game on the hardest difficulty you could make them ultimate grand masters in everything. You could choose to melee rush everything, snipe everything, nuke everything or zerg summon everything.

[@BonyaDK]

WHY DOES THIS NPC NOT EXIST IN POE1? I WANT IT ofc. I'd much prefer identify all button in the inventory, but knowing GGG, at least the npc is already less clicking.

[@FatetalityXI]

Dungeon siege 1 the nostalgia...

[@mcderpity]

In my experience, games that go for rpg style leveling but forgo classes just end up with a really muddled play experience. I feel it also can negatively impact balancing when you don’t have clear starting points to fall back to. Following this by defending the identify system feels incredulous. I’ve enjoyed the identify system in barony but that’s because it leads to situations where you sometimes feel pressured to take a risk on an unidentified item. Even then it’s a very stripped down system in that game that could likely just be removed with little impact.

[@PirateZ1]

I disagree with the interpretation of why unidentified items make sense from a design POV. i think in POE 1, having identification also forces a player to actually consider ground loot a bit more (and gives it more weight since you have to take it into your bag to ID it) than if everything was already IDed and we just had a loot filter do it for it.

[@taborevan]

the first an probably only time i agree with Jonathan u need classes 100

[@sgthitonthings]

Being able to sell unidentified items is good too. ex the watchers eyes

[@PekkkiR]

The only reason for identifying items is Diablo. Double dip exitement is now double dip frustration

[@Zman14888]

The real reason for Identifying items in PoE is to prevent people from creating loot filters that filter out the garbage you find 99% of the time.

[@mrbigglezworth42]

Wasting time to identify an item doesn't make me feel more joy when I grab an item, I already get interested when it dropped and I see it's a legendary. If anything you're just setting me up for disappointment when it's a legendary I can't use or with a worse roll of stats then what I already have. So really that's 2 layers of disappointment when you could've spared me one layer by not having me identify it in the first place.

[@MrRafagigapr]

*unidentified level 1 base sword drops * damn if only it was indentified, then i might know if it was a upgrade for my level 56 bow

[@mishli7670]

For me, identifying items is just a chore... Like he said, identifying items isn't really worth it because the rare you pick up is never any good.. And yet there is still that FOMO That if I don't pick it up... It might be the one time the item is worth something So I have the 'oh no, I have to clean my room' frustration, and the fomo. It really doesn't feel good At the same time.. I hate the idea of the NPC in town, unless he's going to be able to id an entire page in your stash, because I just want to deal with the problem on the spot and move on, I don't want to have to drop what I'm doing, go back to town, then talk to the NPC. That's like 4 extra steps just to disappoint me more

[@ikuma8291]

Me and a friend we have couple stash tabs priced at 5 chaos. We throw all rings and jewels in that and if ppl start to dm on a item thats when I check if the item is worth something, and list it for a high price.

[@mishli7670]

@@ikuma8291 I get the thought process But honestly that strikes me as very rude. You're basically expecting everyone else to price your items for you I always hate it when I see an item I have been searching for go up for cheap, then put up at a higher price. It feels like someone is intentionally baiting you to make you waste your time. Already so many issues with people not responding to messages as it is

[@ikuma8291]

@@mishli7670 hey dont hate the player, hate the game. It really applies in this situation :P Trading in general is such a headache I decided next league to try the self found mode

[@yami2828]

I have a dream one day poe will actually be properly optimized 😅

[@oORoOFLOo]

I can see point of iding. Either average filter would just cull everything or you would have items with long ass names on the ground and when you hower over them they would block half of your screen. I however dont like the npc solution at all. It adds extra step to IDing. So now i will have to tp to hideout from mine encampment, just to id rings i plan to sell anyways? My dolution would be to make id scroll just limitless resource next to your inventory.

[@neenjaha3896]

I'd assume you'd be able to invite the id npc to your hideout

[@mccdragonfired434]

I disagree with this with the identifying items thing, you are alrighty double dipping dopemine without identification. You first have to see the item and unless you have somehow memorised all the terms used to describe an item, you then have to pick the item up then open your inventory to see whats on it. With identifying you are instead triple dipping.

[@amethonys2798]

Why is it okay for a Div (hell even a chaos) or a Doctor or what have you be able to drop raw unidentifed where you KNOW its good, but heaven forbid you want to filter out the plethora of unusable rings and such that are complete garbage? I don't see the difference.

[@chaosgyro]

That was such a weak defense of identification.

[@neutralasswitz3192]

Hi

[@CallMeTeci]

I neither like classes nor do i think its true that people dont have an idea what "to latch on" if there are none. Most people go into games with a fantasy in mind. And if they dont have a clear fantasy already that usually happens within the first few hours of the game, when they can try out different weapons or find a mechanic that makes the most fun to them. But class-based systems basically ask you what you want to play, before you even know what the game is going to offer you and what the consequences are. And instead of making them explore their options, many people will just watch videos on KZbin about the classes, before even playing the game, because of this. Not to mention that this also usually makes you hard stuck with a specific look of your character, completely destroying any diversity and especially visual creativity of the player.

[@Zombiesbum]

The identify defence is theoretical at best. In practice you're not picking up rare items in hopes of getting an upgrade, especially once you get into crafting. If you spent 3 seconds identifying every potential item, you'd spend 99% of your time playing inventory management instead of playing the game. It's really just a bad system, and always has been. This is a classic case of being way too rigid in design for the sake of design. Nobody really cares about your ideas when they suck. No matter how much you want players to like identify, you can't make them like it. Ask your players and 99% of them will say to get rid of it. Unfortunately no matter how much feedback is given to GGG, they tend to ignore it. That does have positives and negatives; The positive being they seemingly have a vision for the game. The negative being that vision could be shit in places (which has been proven to be the case over the years of PoE). Remember Chris wanting players to "Exalt slam" but also refusing to increase drop rates of exalts... Yeah...

[@soundrogue4472]

7:48 most of the rares are bad because there are no unique/ interesting effect to them. I still remember in Borderlands the amazing rares I've gotten that had unique gameplay gimmicks to them. Binding of Issacs assault rifle The pumpkin shotgun The gun that yells at me The tea cup rocket launcher I found (not a literal tea cup) That rocket launcher you throw and it hones in on enemies. TK Wave! All of those guns had UNIQUE EFFECTS WHICH MADE THEM FUN RARES!

[@mrbigglezworth42]

Agreed, Grim Dawn has Monster Infrequent items that while technically only rare quality, can be used to make entire builds around. Same with Borderlands 2 unique blue Law pistol and order shield. 2 items that are amazing together but fine or a little underpowered separately.

[@daanstrik4293]

Poe already had items to fill this nishe. They’re called unique’s because they have a unique function. Most of these examples are gimmicks that would quickly become annoying should they be more common. Most POE players prefer mechanical depth anyway. And thats something borderlands is severely lacking in.

[@Pcr12]

🎉

[@soundrogue4472]

I disagree with the guy with the identify; yes at FIRST but over time... it doesn't.

[@ValkynShade]

this. if you have to forcibly try and induce more "dopamine hits" that should already tell you that the thing you're doing isn't as good as you think. especially if it just devolves into gambling with droprates

[@JordaanM]

Potential compromise: You only ever need to identify uniques, and only the first time. So, you get the thrill of discovery the first time through, and there's the fun of seeing an unidentified item, and knowing that it's something new you're never seen before. Any time you encounter that same unique after that, you're spared from having to spam out scrolls.

[@IronBrutzler]

They could make it that you see the effect that is on the Items like X% more Phys or x% Spell damage but not the direct numbers. So we could filter them out and that get the "dopamine" kick when they get good numbers.

[@soundrogue4472]

@@IronBrutzler Better idea; you have a hidden effect you could unlock on a weapon or item on a scroll and ACTUALLY have it be some cool/ neat hidden effect. "whenever you're hit drop a pumpkin bomb" or "an energy wave is fired from your melee weapon whenever you swing" have it be some new/ different effect. This way the player never knows what effect it is AND each rare feels different/ unique instead of worrying about stat drops. Keep in mind I'm only saying this change idea as someone who played 80 hours of the game and the most fun items were only the skill gems that changed up gameplay.

[@LotnyLotnik]

There is no Joy with Identification, it would be better if they dropper "Loot box" that you need to open it up instead... I disabled all items because dopamine of dropping divine is so much greater then seeing all the T10 items that i would ID with Very-Strict filter and be disappointed

[@Bartuk_3000]

Will the identifying NPC ask us to stay a while and listen?

[@supabass4003]

Path of Erectile Disfunction.

[@lordofthebored3660]

Yeah, i quite like the indentifying system as it is now.

[@reallukki]

"People need stereotypes to latch on to" Right, and then Marauder/Ranger spellcasters appear, together with the melee-using Witches, I'd say that's peak design actually

[@NoraNoita]

Josh explains what Tropes are.

[@wisnoskij]

That does not sound very true to this developers explanation of why is exists. A identify all button is like handing a scratch and win ticket to the clerk and having they scan it to see if you won instead of scratching it yourself.

[@slocraftus8126]

As much as I love Josh's content, I think he missed the mark with this one. He spoke way too much throughout the whole interview

[@Loki-]

I enjoyed hearing what he had to say as well. It was more of a conversation than an interview and I'm here for it.

[@slocraftus8126]

@@Loki- that's fair. Maybe I'm misreading the whole situation. Just felt like Jonathan sat there awkwardly, listening to Josh's life stories

[@Loki-]

​@@slocraftus8126 I agree in some places it felt like that, but I'm sure theres more interviews out there in a more QA format. Josh said things here insightful to me, so I don't mind.

[@_Pojedzony_]

0:34...Not true look at No rest for the Wicked....

[@Artansis]

Bro I love you, but its an interview not your monologue...

[@AlanStryman]

based?? BASED CLASSES???

[@TheSlayer117]

Can you just put the full interview somewhere instead of those shitty short clips please?

[@JoshStrifeSays]

You can use your shitty eyes and hands and head to the vod channel where the full interview is at! 😊👍🏻

[@TheSlayer117]

@@JoshStrifeSays Oh thank you. My eyes are indeed shitty it seems since I didn't see there was a vods channel despite looking for it.

[@arcan762]

gotta milk what content you have for that ad rev

[@Loki-]

​@@arcan762they dont call josh the milker for nothing. We love our milker

[@Guanjyn]

PoE is just like Dark Souls in which the "class" just serves to give you a better start point for the build you want to make.