Why Primaris Keep Dying | Warhammer 40K Lore

[@falsehero2001]

Other Marine Chapters: “they are too machine like” Iron Hands and their successors: “I fail to see a problem with this”

[@builder969channel6]

Hahahha true

[@michaaugustyn5414]

Iron hands be like: this bad boy can fit soooo many cybernetics in him

[@mkvenner2]

Other marine chapters: “metaphorically” iron Hands: “Oh”

[@FrakMunkie]

Iron Hands in response: 'and yet they have too much flesh.'

[@zambekiller]

Lamenters - we don't care how they act WE JUST NEED THE HELP

[@fg09403]

There hypno training and primaris conversion has left them in a sort of robotic trance. There are actually a few instances that show them "waking up" in the middle of combat as well a few places where it shows that from their perspective they were just children literally days ago. There was one who's last non-hypno induced memory was being led away from class after getting into a fight with a friend in school, and they ponder what might have happened to that friend. And there was another who's last memory was fleeing from the emperor's children during the siege of terra. Many of them seem to literally actually *be* children. not trained from childhood, but actual children who have been programmed for combat via hypno-training and kept in stasis after being converted into a primaris marine.

[@kharnthebetrayer1575]

Gman has a primaris that remembers him being taken from the recruiting center.

[@craig9365]

Sounds like GW just trying to milk it's gullible fans and then retroactively trying to make it all make sense and yet they kind of failed miserably. Good thing I have other expensive hobbies that don't involve a bunch of lame British t-whats overselling plastic. I'll go to Japan for that.

[@ghostrhinorhino4287]

Well, I agree more. The imperium uses mind wiped children. Don't make them into better warriors funny

[@thehorsemanofwar5138]

I bet you're fun at parties ​@@craig9365

[@hz.kemalpasa2997]

If someone remembers anything from Siege of Terra they must be one of the oldest characters in Imperium.

[@AutiCyrptArch]

1st legions: "I played this game since it came out. I have a lvl 99 Captain!" Primaris: "I bought the level skip."

[@livefromtheblacklibrary]

Basically 🤣

[@xaldrortenderofthevats8948]

First Born: Dark Souls vet whose played all the games and knows each boss's moveset by heart. Chaos Space Marine Long War Vet: has been an invader in all those games, and knows the PvP nuances of all weapons, and can disembowel you with a broken sword hilt if he wanted CSM thin blood: has just started invading, but is always eager for blood. Knows instinctively when a veteran is invading the same world, and will follow their lead. Primaris: password summoned Cawl to drop him 99 stacks of all consumables and weapon upgrades in the first area, and thinks he's able to stand up to 5 invaders at once, gets trolled off a ledge or baited into attacking the obligatory early game miniboss and dies like an idiot

[@nofuxgivens2797]

Reminds me when you need a healer to pvp or raid and the only option is the one rogue/assassin guild mate that has a buffbot he got off eBay that has max gear and pvp rank.

[@anthonyknight1816]

Its funny how every chapter master is doing the same thing (except Daunte) and most of the heroes

[@nofuxgivens2797]

But the thing GW did was underestimate the attachment by fans to the firstborn. Especially since they made them incompatible, next to zero customization and no thought how to integrate them into the codex divergent chapters both in lore and in game...they could have just said new armor and now black carapace .....new enough for marines. Or just ripped the bandaid off from the jump but they folded and it's wierd for marines right now

[@lilchinesekidchen]

It’s funny, because in real world military, this progression system doesn’t really work. in the US marines for example, Recon units are the elite units of their division because reconnaissance work is much more difficult, requires a specialized skill set, and recon often are the first point of hostile contact/front line forces. it makes more sense to have new recruits join the general infantry first and then specialize after

[@TheBayzent]

US Marines don't wear extremelly expensive battle armor which is very hard to maintain. Scout armor is easier to manufacture and use. I've always thought the Black Templars had the best progression though, they mix the new blood with the veterans within the same squads so they get up to speed fast (and they need to since the Black Templars are constantly in Crusades from battlefield to battlefield)

[@redjellonian8126]

By the time they become scout marines they are already more fully trained than any normal non astartes.

[@laurenkirby97]

If you want the quality of the general infantry to be the highest then taking candidates for it from a recon unit is probably a good idea. When their casualties aren't a factor that is the most effective way of filtering out candidates

[@L1vv4n]

If i remember correctly scout companies are not only recruits. They are squads of light armored recruits under guidance of most veteran sergeants. Problem of the marines that power armor is very valuable and hard to do, so they can't allow themselves to give it out to new recruits who more likely to die and be lost. Kind of very harsh trial by fire.

[@leichtmeister]

The scouts are a callback to the ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT the british scout program was in WW1 and WW2. Boyscouts started out as military pre school for children to teach them soldier skills. You didn't need highly skilled soldiers for recon at the time, because units were way larger and formations much tighter than on a modern battlefield. So the boys learned scouting and were used for recon. That's also the reason Space Marine Scouts are named scouts. Remember, 40k is a left wing parody on the bullshit conservatives came up with in history.

[@kaneslives]

I like to imagine a Veteran venting about Primaris to random xenos. Tau: Why exactly do you hate these guys? They helped you! Veteran: It’s… it’s like being replaced in a way. Look imagine your current battle suit is replaced by a new improved one outta nowhere! Tau: Uhhh that sounds great… Veteran: Ok bad example…

[@tomgeytenbeek2207]

“I’m sure it would be great to have a new one, I’ve ripped all the limbs off this one, now shut up and let me use you as a temporary therapist while I’ve got you here’

[@NUTDOM]

"imagine you randomly got a company of children with better battle suits"

[@KevinJohnson-cv2no]

@@NUTDOM Especially when those children are better than you at everything lmao. Primaris glory boys making the firstborn cucks seethe as usual

[@ildlyn8966]

cringe

[@TheDreadedAssassin]

Imagine every one of your battle suits was red and you were forced into glorious melee combat. Tau: *H E R E S Y !*

[@Pocgamer]

The Primaris remind me a lot of the early legions and early missions conducted by the Legions. They had monstrous casualties back then too, and huge inductions (even before the Heresy). As more firstborn Astartes convert to Rubicon Primaris, things will stabilize. But for now, yeah, they're dying a lot the same way the Astartes who reconquered the solar system did.

[@thecarlob_007]

Exactly what I was thinking. If this was real, I’d bet the learning curve of the founding chapter would be quite similar to the primaris although I wouldn’t even be surprised if the primaris has a faster grasp on things

[@MyXyle666]

The early legions also had the emporer fighting next to them

[@MyXyle666]

The early legions also had the emporer fighting next to them

[@kharnthebetrayer1575]

@@MyXyle666Dark Angels had him the most in the early days ….. I hope we get/got uncrowned Princes in the codex.

[@STONE___]

Primaris were supposedly being deployed in and out of battle zones by Belisarious over the 10k years of their creation; but even the indomitus veterans deployed as reinforcements also seem to be too much machine like, and its this inhuman aspect that makes them weak besides non primaris, they were more programmed than trained in my opinion, rushing to combat and death to achieve tactical objectives without any kind of insight besides pre battle calculations

[@BRZRKBAT7322]

As new primaris are created and raised in their respective chapters the problems we see with the generation created by crawl should start to go away, at least theoretically.

[@KevinJohnson-cv2no]

They aren't weak, though. Dude literally only states two examples of them dying, and one is to a Custodes lmao. On the other hand, there's just as many if not more examples of them outperforming Firstborns. In "Shroud of Night", The Alpha Legion are halted in their tracks when confronted with Primaris marines and are startled by their fighting capabilities & durability. In "ShadowBreaker" an *augmented Iron Hands marine in full-plate armor* fights some average joe Primaris in mere scout armor, and he gets folded like a suitcase. Custodes Valerian himself even goes toe-to-toe with a random Primaris in "The Regent's Shadow" and the Primaris is able to hold his own for a while, with Valerian even saying something akin to "this new breed of warrior is powerful." and wishing he could have savored the battle longer. Nothing about the Primaris is "weak".

[@STONE___]

@@KevinJohnson-cv2no not talking about physical or skill weakness obviously, they are giants and hold more raw power than a regular astartes, but they hold a weakness derived from their origin programming, where it seems the experience of in field combat training was somewhat overlooked and replaced with simulation, as the simulations will never give experience of a real ever changing battlefield, having a rigid mental structure in a hostile dynamic enviroment is a weakness

[@Prophetofthe8thLegion]

Which ironically enough should make them superior to every other faction in 40k except maybe the Tau but because of 40k logic they are not.

[@Max-vp5sn]

Very similar situation to storm troopers and clone troopers from starwars. Clones are trained their entire brief life while storm troopers are rushed out of training after a few months in armour that barely fits them.

[@kevlarburrito6693]

Primaris remind me a lot of the new privates we got while I was in the Army. The "Call of Duty" era of recruits. All of them believing they were gods own gift to the military, none of them had a clue.

[@livefromtheblacklibrary]

Harsh but accurate XD

[@Cordnk]

I agree. I was in from 2004-2019 and the changes I saw were drastic. We had guys, myself included, who went to Iraq when there were still large scale engagements going on. We learned to fight or we didn't make it back. By my later years, we had kids joining who were airsoft players and call of duty fans they literally thought it was possible to reload while sliding through doors. Like ok that might work in video games but reality is so different, there is no respawn, stamina isn't endless, combat isn't as fluid as video games make it out to be. Being infantry, there is a natural arrogance that comes with it because it's beat into our skulls that we will be the ones doing the fighting blah blah blah but add in these kids being raised in the participation award era it was chaotic to say the least. These kids did learn why the old vets were not to be trifled with though. Eventually 😂

[@trevtall1094]

Sliding while reloading hahaha. Did anyone try bunny hopping diagonally in an attempt to cover more ground?

[@dean_l33]

@@trevtall1094 Tbf to those airsoft babies, some of them can do irl slide cancel

[@G.I_Jane]

@@dean_l33yeah cus they have elite LARP training and are at the top of the class

[@Ash2Flame116]

I imagine many primed marines were sent back to the scout company for a coat of paint after command found out they were 5k years old but had 5 years of combat experience.

[@eskhaphey2873]

lol

[@pill0bug347]

We do have the primaris scouts now so I wonder how many marines for pressed into the tenth

[@Memelord1117]

That's probably why they made phobos.

[@RedDonut]

You can see this in Spacemarine 2. Most have no experience fighting Tyranids, it can be seen with Gadriel and Chairon. Compared to Titus, he defended Macragge against Tyranids.

[@Memelord1117]

Chairon did clutch up during the Chaos stage, tho. Gabriel also displayed talent in the unorthodox that Leandros lacked.

[@xtron1234]

@@Memelord1117Well by that point they had been through quite a bit with Titus.

[@ThreeGoddesses]

@@Memelord1117 makes sense. Some of the most successful Primaris were literally coached by veterans, so IMO all they need to do is take competent leaders and throw the primaris into the deep end with someone who can coach them through what combat is like. At some point, a little coaching and all that raw power, intelligence and potential is going to overcome the lack of experience. Something to note though, I can't imagine many marines have ever fought Tyranids. Tyranids almost require the same kind of specialized fighting forces the Grey Knights represent for chaos

[@Memelord1117]

@@ThreeGoddesses After the 4th tyrannic war, I would REALLY want to see some new Primaris Tyrannic War veterans that has buffs against Nids in the game, like cancelling or nerfing tyranid strategems.

[@Memelord1117]

@@ThreeGoddesses It's also been centuries since the first tyrannic war - most tyrannic war veterans were probably in dreadnaughts, or dead.

[@boutinpowered8373]

To think the sons of the Emperor are so weak... To lose to a word bearer. The embarrassment.

[@livefromtheblacklibrary]

I am a bearer of the word, and the word is L

[@stingray2223]

"LOL." said the Word bearer, looking at Primaris marines, "LMAO."

[@asaenvolk]

"You lost to a Word Bearer? Off boy, you sure your not some PDF?" - some Astra Militarum

[@Lorgar64]

We orchestrated the heresy and are one of two legions to remain united. Why is everyone always shitting on me!?

[@livefromtheblacklibrary]

@@Lorgar64 Wait which legion is the other one? Death Guard or Iron Warriors?

[@Haloister]

I think my take on this, kinda runs along with what happened with Pedro Kantor when he questioned Guilliman if these were replacements for Firstborn. Essentially Guilliman told him that the Firstborn like Pedro should be guides and mentors, to teach the Primaris what it means to be a Space Marine, and how to weather this harsh galaxy. To be the Veterans that the Primaris are to learn from.

[@TheBayzent]

Same as the Thunder Warriors were to the first Mari...wait a minute...

[@disgruntleddude]

@@TheBayzent Uh oh.

[@laurenkirby97]

@@TheBayzent Luckily the emperor isn't the one giving the orders now. Gulliman is far more sensible and knows not to waste an obnoxious amount of resources destroying the army he's been relying on, arming and training for thousands of years

[@micaigneous_01]

They have Plak Armor rather than Plot Armor. It is a +5 save rather than +3

[@livefromtheblacklibrary]

The struggle of being mass produced

[@catiasantos9470]

@@livefromtheblacklibrary are you saying Primaris are made in China? ;)

[@Leofilmperson]

Buy cheap, buy twice...

[@qdshuck]

@@catiasantos9470 Wait, guardsmen have a 5+ save. OH GOD THEY'RE ALL CHINESE

[@constantinvaldor703]

@@qdshuck nah Guardsmen are smart enough to actually fight as unit when ever on screen since you know they aren’t the new shiny toy like the primaris are and brave enough do it with the simple Las gun a occasional tank or piece of artillery XD

[@thesmashingbadger4644]

Another interesting example of Word Bearers stunting on Primaris can be found in Josh Reynolds book; Apocalypse. The Imperial Fist character is dualing the Word Bearer, all the while thinking he will win due to studying Sigismund fighting style. The Word Bearer however, has been around long enough to have seen that style first hand and knows its flaws. He proceeds to educate the Primaris (fucks him up).

[@dakat5131]

"Do not cite the deep magic to me, Witch. I was there when it was written"

[@alejandroreyes57]

​@@dakat5131"Do not swing at me with aht style casual, I was there were he created it"

[@CanadianPale]

Imagine claiming that Sigismund's technique had "flaws."

[@Memelord1117]

"I have seen your hero clash blades with the Despoiler millenia ago. Hear this, boy, you are NO Black Knight."

[@CanadianPale]

@@Memelord1117 "and you are no Despoiler."

[@cyanideinmycereal1077]

Shoutout to my Black Templars for apparently being the only chapter that found out how to make primaris neophytes.

[@clydecraft5642]

They probably just go: STRIP. The moment the primarie arrive

[@Needs_Tzel]

Yep, if you’re in the templars the tech priests have next to no say AS THEY SHOULD and primaris marines? Yeah, they aren’t doing anything.

[@Memelord1117]

@@clydecraft5642 Primaris:...what? Helbrecht: *gets primaris neophyte armour* And put these on.

[@mh3225]

unrelated but i always found it weird they viewed fire support guys as lower than "riflemen" or guys with bolters in the line. In reality you want more senior guys with the big guns, as the big guns are extremely important, even on the fireteam level, you dont give a boot a SAW or 240 because its heavier, you give it to a guy with a couple years in who you can really trust to run it as it serves as the base of fire in the attack, and how important those weapons are in the defense.

[@cl34ve]

I'm used to new guys having gotten the m203, but that might just be because no one wants to carry that piece of shit on a training ex.

[@EvilKoala90]

Late response to your comment I know but they 100 percent just handed me the 240 the second I got out of basic at Sand Hill because i was big and it free up others to do more technical roles.

[@mh3225]

@@EvilKoala90 the idea of giving the boot a belt fed is an old one. Mostly because the salt dogs dont wanna carry something heavy. Can a boot use a machine gun? yes. Does a boot understand the fine art of machine gunnery? no. Even the machine gun specific MOS training at SOI only scratches the surface. This is why, at least in the marine corps, platoon commanders in weapons companies are never 2nd LTs, and have experience and a higher understanding of belt fed capability and limitations, and all of the grunts are at the very least, mos specific machine gunners. But yeah boots sometimes end up with belt feds, which is bad, I blame your platoon sergeant.

[@DetournementArc]

I think this tension between the Modernizing-yet-Naiive new guard and the Experienced-yet-Sclerotic older faction of the Imperium is interesting in its own right. Guilliman contesting the norms of the Imperium is a welcome breath of fresh air, but reform elements like the Primaris having growing pains keeps the New Imperial Stuff from just being this "Mary Sue"-ish pure improvement. It just keeps things interesting, I think.

[@no-nonseplayer6612]

funny thing when Dark Angels got some new Primaris and Lion wake up Lion made sure they were PROPERLY tarined to his exat likeness that meant every new primaris marine had to go back even more creuling training under Asmodai and Lazarus

[@nathans45]

​@@no-nonseplayer6612yeah I think that's what is needed. The primaris need to be treated like any other aspirants regardless of the fact that they are stronger on paper than old Marines

[@no-nonseplayer6612]

@@nathans45 well of course they need proper training If i was given wef chapters primris marines o would Make sure their properly trained and have proper gear

[@CanadianPale]

_Guilliman contesting the norms of the Imperium is a welcome breath of fresh air_ TBH, I think it kind of comes across as another example of the sort of complaints people are leveling against the "Primaris mindset." Like, give us a little credit for managing to hold the Imperium together for the last 10 millennia _without_ the assistance of you and your fellow demi-gods, thank you very much.

[@Madmartigan90]

From what I have understood, only Greyshield (Primaris awoken from under the Forges of Mars and used as the main battleforce during the Indomitus Crusade) went straight from newbies to fully armoured Marines, notably because of psycho-indoctrination (like the Minotaurs chapter by the way). But those raised and born from the homeworld of already or new chapter had to go through the stages like Firstborn Marines

[@MaxZeCat]

I came here to say that they've recently retconned this. Pretty sure when they did the new scout kill team so now they do what first born do

[@SgtBotBot]

This is a really interesting and well made point and not something that I'd noticed previously, but now that you mention it I see it everywhere. I think we've got to give some respect to GW here, no doubt making the Primaris was a business decision, but at the end of the day it gave us much nicer true scale marine models. It would have been easy for them to write stories where the Primaris shit on everyone, especially the first born to encourage people to buy more, but this shows a bit more nuance, respect for the lore and makes for a more interesting story.

[@livefromtheblacklibrary]

Yeah absolutely, I should have mentioned in the video how it’s kind of a good thing like you said

[@krel3358]

I disagree as it makes perfect sense within the setting that after 10,000 years the Imperium would need to innovate in order to recover or thrive, its obvious within the setting with the Custodes being head and shoulders above the marines there would be room to improve upon them while still making mistakes in the form of arrogance or expediency. We see that within the 40k setting that nothing can substitute for real experience and tradition/structures are there for a reason. I think its a very good lesson. As for selling models, I dont think theres anything wrong with making money as long as it makes sense within the setting.

[@joriankell1983]

Imagine defending G-Dubs

[@DoomStarRequiem]

Well we do have the firstborn who have crossed the Rubicon Primaris that would be something worth exploring if the writers at BL would give it some thought.

[@ReaperofValhalla]

I do like this trade off. Yes they are bigger, faster, smarter(book), and more genetically pure but they not only lack… Discipline? Tack? SM Social cues? Cultural Understanding? (Idk how to describe it but it’s a mix of the above) they also lack practical experience. There are stories of Primaris officers freezing up in combat against nids and chaos while even the youngest of first born astartes soldier on and fight like it is Tuesday

[@roguecarrick816]

i think the rubicon has really helped the primaris find their footing. and opened up some newer stories. it could be really funny to have a heretic astartes meet what appears to be a primaris marine, go to put him down like a primaris marine, and then brutally discover the lieutenant in question has 500 years of combat experience and knows exactly how to fold heretics like laundry.

[@brunotheboar692]

The primaris were deployed early to fight off and basicaly counter blitz the great rift and everything else alfter Now that chapters are making their own and training them by themselves they will probably become better and we'll see more veterans maybe some chapters develop a sistem simmilar to the old recruitment/training (eg. phobos, hellblaster then intercesors) the primaris have potential, they were just added to quickly without setup and thats the main reasons fans dont like them

[@valdr2286]

I prefer the chapters that treat is as promotion of sorts. Like start as a normal marine prove yourself worthy. Then cross the Rubicon

[@livefromtheblacklibrary]

Yeah, hopefully that will be outgrown

[@EbonFang_92]

@@valdr2286 That's what the stormcast did, the giving of Thunderstrike armor was considered a promotion

[@valdr2286]

@@EbonFang_92 don't know much about them. But good on them. The blood angels re train there primaris and stick a first born to lead a squad or platoon of primaris. The primaris are never solo with other primaris they need a babysitter lol

[@GuthanSlayer]

@@valdr2286 they don't really retrain them, they get trained in their culture so to speak

[@dalegribble2620]

Primaris marines are literally just the excuse they used when they upped the scale of the models so instead of just saying oh we’re gonna make the models alittle bit taller, they made them “primaris”

[@Fuel6233]

@@LordVelaeryyn no

[@Logan-il1rw]

⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠@@LordVelaeryynthere is so much wrong with what u said: 1. No, they’re not new, they’re just copy paste Astartes given a new name and armor and slightly bigger, when the whole point was just to upscale the models. 2. No, it doesn’t look better, it looks more bland and generic and uninspired, it makes them look like toy soldiers made for 8 year olds. 3. It’s the favorite design for the common audience because it’s more accessible design that all the little kids can get into without getting frightened by it, GW is turning 40k into Fortnite and it’s dumb assholes like u that are enabling and encouraging it

[@alphamav3rickgaming]

I think the biggest difference between the Primaris and Firstborn is something you pointed out already. The battlefield roles ascribed in the Codex are Scout->Devastator->Assault->Tactical. While the Primaris have a psuedo version of this where they’re all trained in Phobos Armor first then Tacticus Armor then Gravis Armor it works fundamentally different from firstborn because they’re not meant to be tactically flexible. They’re meant to be a part of a squad with a prescribed role. Entire squad of hellblasters rather than a tac squad or devastator squad with various weapon types. Guilliman remade the codex because training one squad to do one thing makes them better at that one thing though makes them less flexible. It makes training far less complex for initiates to allow faster recruitment and after a while of doing that one thing they will learn and become veterans and that’s how you weed out the standouts

[@nicholassmith7984]

The real reason is mixed-purpose units were losing favour in the game meta; squads would either be min-maxed for a role, or left bare bones for objective grabbing. The rules from 3rd to 7th Editions only allowing units to target one other unit fed into this. The Heresy range introduced single-loadout units, which proved popular due to their 'efficiency.' As such, the new Primaris units followed this same philosophy. The irony is that 8th Edition did away with the restriction of only targeting one unit, so mixed-purpose loadouts became more useful than they had been since 2nd Edition.

[@darko-man8549]

Let’s not forget, it’s cheaper for GW to sell the single loadouts and bloat the codex with lots of similar units that fans wi buy

[@nicholassmith7984]

@@darko-man8549 How is that cheaper for them, as opposed to having multiple options for the same unit?

[@darko-man8549]

@@nicholassmith7984 basically, by giving us more units that fill almost the same niche we HAVE to buy all those units: the incursors, inflitrators, reivers, eliminators. Whereas, if there is a single box with a few different loadouts, whilst yes we have to buy a few boxes, with some clever hobby, you don't need as many boxes. Plus the more monopose structure of the primaris is easier to make and harder to kitbash - the recent rocket launcher models were, according to one employee, made to actually be hard to kitbash. Look at all the single pose lieutentatns they've pushed out rather than multi-loadout leieutenants.

[@nicholassmith7984]

@@darko-man8549 You don't have to buy all of them. You still only need to buy as much of each as you want, which could be none if another unit does a similar job.

[@musicalDrebin]

if Guiliman had his way, i'm sure the guy would have implemented them slowly and deliberately into the chapters, giving them time to build up experience as written in the book he wrote... however... THERE IS A GIANT HOLE IN THE GALAXY! SEND DUDES! WE NEED MORE MEN!

[@magnum32b]

This is exactly why I like Primaris marines. They are overall slightly stronger and tougher with slightly better gear, but their lack of experience gets them wrecked by stuff a Firstborn wouldn't, ....like back-talking a Custodes.

[@Luciusthestorms]

I think the Custodes could use some back talk. They're too used to being worshipped.

[@leonidaspereirafilho499]

@@Luciusthestormsagreed

[@tom4115]

Custodes are pathetic. Sitting on their asses and playing games for 10 thousand years. Primaris get wrecked...primarily because they're actually fighting the enemies of mankind.

[@AAhmou]

@@Luciusthestorms Gulliman's reprimands got through their skulls, especially since the Daemonic invasion of Terra during the 13th Black Crusade.

[@snakeoo7ca]

Much more than "slightly" my friend

[@firefang92]

There's another moment to highlight in Wolftime, which in and of itself spends most of it's pages addressing how the space wolves incorporated the primaris marines. This should have arguably been a smother transition as Space wolves flip the standard process so a marine goes from blood claw: front line shock troops to grey hunter: rank and file marine, to long fang: devastator equivalent. (obviously cutting out those skilled enough to become wolf guard or thurderwolf cavalry or unlucky enough to become wulfen.) Initially this does play out to a degree with the intercessors that are the focal point of the story first being recognized as bloodclaws, for the most part it's the cultural differences more than the doctrinal/capability differences that chafe. But mid way through the story there's a weapons emplacement that gets taken over by some chaos cultists and begins targeting a ship in orbit carrying primaris reinforcements. The sergeant of the intercessor squad wants to destroy the emplacement but the grey hunter with him says no as they are inside with their squads. The primaris marine was thinking one soldier was as good as another and that they couldn't risk everyone on the ship, but to the grey hunter his pack's years of experience and proven capabilities were more valuable than an armies worth of primaris. Ultimately primaris being just as effective or usually more so on the tabletop is a pretty big flavor fail, firstborn marines have been spending hundreds of years fighting everything from xenos to demons and their battle-hardened capabilities should easily outstrip anything some gene tinkering brings to the table. plus C'MON GW they're just so much more iconic!

[@PrimarisBlackTemplaDraven]

I love the fact that the sub faction of the Black Templars decided to kill them and the Marshall and custodian as well.

[@livefromtheblacklibrary]

How they managed that is fucking beyond me

[@KameSennin4209]

@@livefromtheblacklibrary weaponized autism.

[@tomgeytenbeek2207]

@@livefromtheblacklibrary I suppose you can’t react to a melta bomb going off on your back, no matter how badass the custodians are, if they had no warning to the betrayal I can see them rather dishonourably being backstabbed. Still… bloody hell, why did they even try, if you shoot for the custodian you had *better not miss*

[@The_Blood_Wraith]

Yes and then that whole sub-faction was itself killed off so it worked out well for them???

[@Darksky1001able]

If Grimaldus or Helbrecht were there, I have no doubt the dude in charge wouldve gotten his ass kicked or die of a heart attack seeing Helbrecht and Grimaldus having crossed the Rubicon.

[@Biotear]

Blood Ravens when their new primaris marines steal an entire waffle house

[@Warmaster2001]

Angelos and Diomedes: *PROUD*

[@Infinity_Coda]

I think it'll naturally resolve itself over time as the original batch of Primaris either die off or wise up, Firstborn veterans cross the Rubicon, and new recruits are turned into them. But I think this dynamic is pretty interesting right now, and Chaos deserve to look cool, it would suck if the new genetics and tech just steamrolled over the enemies of the Imperium.

[@3adgamd3r]

It kinda evens it out really, the chaos marines (in the lore) had a pretty big advantage of being able to call upon the warp to enhance their bodies, reflexes, strength, psychic power, anything could be enhanced with a little help from a demon or two, and so the Primaris are (in the lore) just making things a little more fair for the loyalists, especially since chaos has had a big win with the fall of Cadia

[@corbingovers7559]

I bet we'll We have primaris veterans of the HH by the time the DA codex drops. There's no way at least some of the risen don't jump at the chance for some power ups.

[@CombineWatermelon]

nah idc about the grimdark i want the humans to kill everything else.

[@tarot3078]

@@3adgamd3rIn the lore chaos marine’s have generally worst equipments and armour because their supply chains are terrible or non-existent. They were already on equal footing

[@ezequielmorales4221]

"These are incredibly upgraded space marines. Faster, stronger and with better armor" Why do they keep getting folded, then?

[@FCSOWMD]

Lack of experience, they don’t have the experience of an Astartes.

[@ezequielmorales4221]

@@FCSOWMD They are Astartes, necrocommenter

[@FCSOWMD]

@@ezequielmorales4221 The regular ones, guess they don’t teach common sense anymore. You couldn’t pick up on the context clues, you ungulate.

[@ExValeFor]

skill issue

[@canale39youification]

I love the Dark Apostle literally made the "soul vs soulless" argument which fits so ironically well even on a meta level

[@chrisw7047]

Unpopular Opinion: Primaris are biologically engineered to have "diminished" souls, so that they can withstand warp powers and don't get corrupted as easily. They are like the Clone Troopers in Star Wars, who also had part of their free will suppressed. The goal is the same in both cases: make them more efficient soldiers.

[@the13inquisitor59]

@@chrisw7047 The difference is, the Clones earned their rep. The Primaris had a lot of claims made, but they're yet to back them up.

[@jacklaurentius6130]

@@chrisw7047is that so? That’s some next level Engineering because the only other person to engineer or modify souls was the emperor and maybe some high level scientists during his primarch project

[@mephosto]

i stand by my opinion that it just should have been a new pattern of power armor and new equipment.

[@brunotheboar692]

basically spamming troops early in hoi4 without waiting for training to complete

[@livefromtheblacklibrary]

It’ll work for a bit buuuuuut

[@weebslayer3411]

Good Ol Titus will whip them into shape

[@sweetinvictus654]

Titus is a primaris now

[@landgrave8795]

That's the point you dingus.​@@sweetinvictus654

[@gahngis8158]

I believe what we are seeing is the unexpirenced primaris eat shit. But as more firstborn cross the Rubicon and chapters make new primaris following their doctrine, we'll see the childing first wave of primaris switched for a more veteren wave and probably even replace firstborn. As you said they are technically superior to their older brothers, but lack experience. I believe with time it'll change. Edit: context. As someone who only joined cause of 8th edition if very much was convinced by primaris to give 40k a chance. Ive only retroactively enjoyed firstborn because if the Horus heresy. But sadly that firstborn enjoyment doesn't exist in 40k since the WEs and White scars essentially get nothing. But yeah. End of comment.

[@livefromtheblacklibrary]

Good point! Yeah I think you’re right in regards to where this will head I think

[@mr.raider7865]

Astartes are very different in both 30 and 40k, however I am curious as to how the primaries are different to you?

[@catiasantos9470]

Yeah, its like a young boxer and an old one. Although the young one has a bunch of advantages more often then not they lack the experience, or sense, to capitalize on it.

[@fozzilla123]

Advance and charge all game long, +1 dmg to melee weapons in Ass doctrine is..nothing? You are playing wrong.

[@guilliman1990]

What a shame. Primaris are garbage marines it's the reason 8th had a massive drop of players. Vs previous editions. Can't stand them they being nothing to the table even lore wise they lack anything making them valuable

[@justinweber4977]

I've actually only really started getting in to the setting again (after being initially introduced to it in middle or high school) around the time Primaris and the return of Guilliman happened, so amusingly, to me they're just part of the overall setting.

[@sparkitus1988]

surprised you didn't use the epitome of anti-primaris characters in Gabriel Seth (Flesh Tearers). There is a nice little fist fight between an unhelmeted Seth and a fully armoured Primaris Captain (the leader of the new reinforcements) who decided that being so cock sure and superior to your new Chapter Master was a brilliant idea. Lets just say he was carried out of the room by his primaris brethren.

[@nicholassmith7984]

Many have tried debating Seth using their fists. Many have been soundly rebutted.

[@samaritan_sys]

Oof. Reminds me of the boogaloo that went down over Astorath the Grim mercy-killing some of Seth’s Death Company brothers. They both had to be dragged away from that one, iirc.

[@nicholassmith7984]

@@samaritan_sys I also recall something to this effect.

[@grimnir8872]

Ah yes, Gabriel "Literal plot armour" Seth the colossal retard who will happily team kill anyone yet when he actually goes up against another named character they never seem to put the mad dog down despite how worthless he is.

[@reisakashiya]

@@samaritan_sys Anything with Seth is always so damn entertaining

[@speedytypermananswers5551]

You know it’s bad when in the lore even the chaos marines are offended that these *giant sythetic/clone cannon fodders* are created and serving alongside the royalist marines 7:40

[@maxstr]

I thought the point of Primaris was as initial reinforcements, until the chapters replenish their own units with Primaris Marines that do go through the same process as veterans.

[@Shadowdrag00n]

It is, however if stay your chapter is down to your last 200 and you get 800 reinforcements you can't exactly stop to train all 800 on the basics of fighting in 42k. They were trained in a lab and you notice in a lot of books they don't know the basics on Chaos and most of the species as they are "men of science" were the firstborn are "men of faith and superstition". If you you want a comparison the Primaris are closers to Tau thinking then the Imperium, as they are trying to think logically in an era that most of the time has now rhyme or reason, most 40k born characters are like oh shit it's this and that. The Primaris are more now hang on what's going on here, lets investigate this.

[@carlost856]

As for that fight, did the primaris captain really have a bulk advantage? The world bearer was in ancient terminator armor.

[@DreadNought0255]

This.... this is normal. Astartes or not, you can train a soldier however much you want and can but in the end, experience is the best teacher. Not to mention that each "Firstborn" chapter has their own flavour to combat and training. I do not find it at all surprising that Primaris get bodied by enemies with THOUSANDS of years of experience and sometimes vastly heavier battlegear. If GW writes them correctly, these are just "growing pains". An expensive and unfortunate process. Not to mention that more and more Firstborn are "Crossing the Rubicon" to Primaris. Also, from what I've heard if the Imperium hadn't gotten the Primaris, there wouldn't BE an Imperium anymore. They needed bodies for the breach and they got them. They don't have to be perfect, they have to be good enough. And Primaris do what all Astartes have done since their creation: Die. Finally: Everyone raggs on the greenhorn. Everyone. Without exception.

[@CanadianPale]

_I do not find it at all surprising that Primaris get bodied by enemies with THOUSANDS of years of experience_ Isn't it more like a few centuries at best, given the tendency of CSMs to hide out in the timeless unreality of Warp?

[@keldon_champion]

My biggest issue as a dark angel's enthusiast, they really REALLY don't make sense given the dark angel's natural distrust of anyone at all even within the chapter there are significant trust issues and I can't see them just letting them into the inner circle. I could go on about this for hours, I like the models cosmetically but I hate them in the lore. I wouldn't even have cared if they just released a range refresh and called it true scale or something it would still be a cash grab but whatever they are a company so gotta make money I get it, but this just shits on the lore.

[@tomgeytenbeek2207]

Fair, why the Primaris DA in Kill Team I run are hundreds of years down the line as veterans, so it doesn’t fly in the face of the lore quite so much.

[@AAhmou]

@@tomgeytenbeek2207 Basically, they all crossed the Rubicon. And the new Primaris are the ones the Dark Angels personally recruit.

[@keldon_champion]

@@AAhmou ya you can kind of ignore the books and play it this way but in the books Rowboat showed up and gave them a massive supplemental force of primarius complete with captains and everything, I still use them in my army (kind hard to play anything but the most causal of games and not at this point) but GW just basically said fuck it with the dark angel's lore and just yeeted them in there where they should have just had the dark angel's between a rock and a hard place and had a large chunk of the force cross the rubicon all at once or like I said not done primarius at all and just marketed it as a true scale range refresh plus new models

[@stillcantbesilencedevennow]

Give em a new circle, a better circle with blackjack and hookers! Wait, that's how ya fall ain't it?

[@grimnir8872]

@@keldon_champion Retard alert! The Inner Circle are chosen because they can be trusted, and are tested and judged literally every chance they can be, Firstborn or Primaris does not matter.

[@spider-spectre]

Space Marines get to feel a taste of what the Thunder Warriors felt. If Big E was still active, I'm sure the primaris would be perfected to use new gene seed or attempted alterations to get rid of the flaws. The main objective of Big E making the space marines wasn't just stronger soldier but, for loyalty so pure it could withstand the Chaos Gods. If Big E could create a normal human that was impervious to Chaos with no weird quirk, I'm sure he'd choose that over a larger stronger soldier that had the potential to betray. TBH, I still don't understand why they dont purposely allow worse genes to die and increase better ones. Like Salamanders should be larger than most legions purely for proving them to be good, loyal, and their quirk isn't nearly as negative as the other chapters.

[@danielhogan6255]

@spider-spectre funny you said salamanders, their genetic deviancy rate is a whopping 90% in their geneseed, out of all the founding legions, they are said to be the most likely to develop abnormalities. Which is a strange bit of lore seeing as alot of the "more stable" geneseed of other chapters developed genetic abnormalities ( space wolves, blood angel's, hell even later successor chapters) and yet the salamanders seem unaffected. I would reckon the reason why the imperium doesn't destroy gene-seed is they probably have no metric or predictive model, for which blood line will weaken, develop abnormalities, or turn traitor. add in the religious worship and fervor wrapped around space marines as "the emperors living angels walking among us" and well? Other factions are probably too afraid to try and explain why they destroyed (or tried to destroy) a labor of their god-emperor's very hands, based on "a hunch"...no-one wants to risk THAT... so they just cross fingers and hope.

[@leitefodaum]

@@danielhogan6255 The coal-like skin and red eyes don't count as geneseed abnormalities? if it counts, than they're the most affected chapter for sure

[@tenjenk]

@@leitefodaum their successor chapters keep developing WILD mutations like the black dragon's bone spikes, the Storm Giants extremely enhanced strength, the dragonspears eating their dead and whatever the hell is up with the Black Vipers. Though most of this due to mechanicus messing with their gene seed while not knowing what they're doing.

[@edwardclay7551]

I think there are several reasons in lore why we see Primaris dying a lot. The main one is as you said, a lack of real battlefield experience. Primaris are inherently great marksmen and great at adjusting trajectory etc when firing any of their weapons as shown in all the novels featuring them. Within their own squad level deployments they perform well generally. But they are not invincible. The battles around Ultramar alone show this clearly. Gulliman accepted the essentially multi legion sized Primaris marine force and used it as a blunt instrument to stem the tide against the falling imperium. But a lot of those self same marines die often needlessly due to overestimating their own abilities. How many Primaris Lieutenants have died because they challenged a Chaos Lord or Sorceror in Terminator Armour? Or even just a "normal" chaos lord? In the end its a lot. I liked that the codex reintroduced the rank of Lieutenant and I even hunted down one of the old Rogue Trader Lieutenants to use as a Firstborn Lieutenant in my company. But I still prefer Firstborn myself. I own plenty of Primaris bc of the 8th Edition starter sets and god knows I bought a heap of them at the time... But in the end I prefer firstborn marines. The one instance where I can see the benefit of Primaris over Firstborn is in smaller scale engagements like Kill Team. Where you don't need to be truly specialised bc when facing multiple types of enemies often a Generalist build will actually carry the day.

[@iloveplayingpr]

I still find it stupid how the Custodian killed the supposed Primaris Reinforcement from a "traitor" chapter they were going to.

[@Ryngbearer]

Im coming back into 40k from 2nd ed. I think GW realize that long term, in 10 years, most of the space marines fielded by TT players will be primaris. That the firstborn models will see atrophy in their use over the years. As players come to adopt the primaris that will settle the primaris into the lore symbiotically with how they are fielded IRL and how ppl feel about fielding them. GW predicted growing pains, but have been smart enough to bring their fandom kicking and screaming into what they understood to be the future of 40k.

[@Commodore22345]

Jeez, why don't you gargle GW's balls a little more.

[@Cynidecia]

They thought they could count on complacency & go "ehhh theyll just get desperate & buy them anyways." with at least die hard unironically buying modern GW product thats the case, but i hope 3d prinring stuff comes and helps.

[@ZHBraden13]

Reminds me of the movie Soldier with Kurt Russel. The older soldiers with Kurt Russel were replaced with a new younger generation of super soldiers who were stronger, faster, etc. But they lacked the experience, knowledge and even common sense the older soldiers had, and ended up getting all wiped out to a man by Kurt Russel by himself because of it.

[@easonyeung2779]

I suspect there are a couple of reasons why Primaris keep getting killed despite technically being stronger. Part of it is the training. The initial batch of Primaris were trained by hypno-indoctrination instead of live training exercises, which didn't fully prepare the Primaris for real combat. When Cawl was giving Guilliman a demonstration of the Primaris it was noted that the Primaris had very robotic movements when taking out the demo combat servitor. Then, we have their strategic and tactical doctrine. The Primaris seemed designed with the original legionary system in mind where you have so many marines running around a single battlefield that individual squads could afford to be more specialized and weaker since they can often expect support from nearby Astartes. This can be seen in the differences between chapter-era tactical squads and Intercessor squads as well as the similarities between Intercessor squads and legion tactical squads. I suspect that if you took an average space marine from a chapter and pitted him against an average legionary marine, the chapter marine would win since under the chapter system, Marines had to adapt to become more self-sufficient because it was unlikely that a group of chapter marines deployed to a warzone could expect other marines to come and help in any large numbers or in short time. Same applies to chaos marines-while they never officially disbanded the legions, most were still split into smaller warbands that also had to adapt to survive the harsh Darwinian pressures of the Eye of Terror that would result in anyone left alive generally being a vicious, hardy monster of an Astartes.

[@TheIroncladResearcher]

I agree. As the centuries drag on it wouldn't surprise me if the primaris improved through harsh lessons learned in the field. It's how the Red Army in WWII got over Stalin's HIGHCOM purges and their initial logistical issues during the early days of Operation Barbarossa. The Primaris just have to grit their teeth, dig in their heels, and learn.

[@jakehinton732]

Well stated brother, another thing about the primaris being so robotic is that they never got the human experience that so many of the first born got before becoming a neo. Primaris are basic assembly line products, they may be bigger and stronger but the lack of experience will always be their downfall. First born were human first so they will know what they are fighting for.

[@easonyeung2779]

@Jake Hinton I still believe that the robotic movements are due to their lacking training since it has been noted that many of the original batch of Primaris were nicer than modern space marines because many were originally born during the Crusade or Heresy era where the Imperium was far more humane and rational. An example was a Primaris Dark Angel who treated a normal human woman like an actual person while his Firstborn superior officers regarded the mortal as little above a serf or slave. As an interesting side note, there was an Imperial Fist Primaris Marine who recalled being a young boy during the Siege of Terra and one of his memories was trying to hide from an Emperor's Children marine preying on the local populace.

[@grimnir8872]

@@easonyeung2779 All Space Marines undergo Hypno-indoctrination and all Greyshields were veteran 30k legionaires tested upon. Let's not type stupid words out when the answer can be found a google search away.

[@CanadianPale]

_Same applies to chaos marines-while they never officially disbanded the legions, most were still split into smaller warbands that also had to adapt to survive the harsh Darwinian pressures of the Eye of Terror that would result in anyone left alive generally being a vicious, hardy monster of an Astartes._ There can't be very many of the original Traitor Legionnaires left alive at this point if that's the case.

[@neoteraflare]

"Comes our fully armored and in front line service. This is not how things work" Space Wolves: well, that's where you are wrong kiddo!

[@hammanhouse]

I like how the Primaris look, but I like how the FirstBorn play and how cool their lore is!

[@Marinealver]

So we got Firstborn vs Primarius on the Loyalist side. And on the Traitor side it is Legionaires vs Renegades.

[@joegroves2517]

I think the initial Primaris really have a lot to make up and suffer huge attrition rates but the ones who make it through will gain that experience. After the initial mass deployment, which is kind of an emergency measure, the ones who are trickled in as replacements to groups will probably have more time to learn. I'm pretty new so I don't have the attachment to the old models, but I think the new ones do look a lot better too.

[@starsiegeRoks]

I think others hit on this, but from an in-universe perspective, Cawl was essentially creating legions, not chapters, and so because of that their structure and training us designed for large set-peace battles. The Primaris training (in my opinion) was not designed for single squad to demi-squad operations, it was designed for Primaris operating alongside thousands of other Primaris. Thats why when Cawl initially released the first wave of Primaris, they were in a legion structure called the "un-numbered sons" and were used as a legion. Due to inquisition pressure and the nessecity of leaving rear gaurds, Guilliman broke chapter sized pieces off of this legion for guarding retaken planets and reinforcing other chapters. This essentially led to alot of the first-wave Primaris being forced into a smaller multi-role organization when they had been trained as line troops for a legion. This probably led to alot of first-wavers dying because they couldn't be as flexible as a regular marine who was born into the chapter structure.

[@IronFatherJohn]

The Dawn of Fire series is literally with the first batch of Primaris who had no combat experience at all. By the time you get to the Dark Imperium trilogy they do have that combat experience. Your example is hardly fair a Dark Apostle is literally the top 1% of the Word Bearers legion. He is armored in Terminator armor and is a sorcerer with thousands of years of experience against a character that was essentially bumped up from Sergeant to Captain simply because there were no captains with experience around.

[@krel3358]

I find it kind of ironic that Lorgar himself never really liked fighting or considered himself a warrior but his legion becomes powerful regardless? It kind of doesnt fit in with the character of the legion. Also the Word Bearers live in the warp so its not a direct line of linear time passing. The way I'd put it is like lets say you are off your sleep schedule and force to stay up for a while or have done heavy drugs that screw up your sense of time and everything kinda blends together, Thats what I think the Chaos Space Marines should experience in terms of time dilation from the Great Crusade Era to the Current 40k setting.

[@JohnDoe-xv9du]

So basically this video is about how hating on primaris is like a someone hating a new person at the gym.

[@gergelyosztrogonacz9464]

I think in the future the Space Marine training and advancement will be brought back to what it is in the codex, only now the neophytes will receive the 2 new implants (we've seen GW release primaris neophytes with the Black Templars, so who knows) and now they are like the marines in the Horus Heresy, where even if they are just useless under-skilled muscle, they're still needed for the fractured Imperium.

[@bankotsu2a]

The issue I have with the scout marine comment is that the spacewalls don't do that should be a moot point in my mind anyway

[@Motard.Actual]

I do think they are fixing the Primaris, a little. I mean they have stated that the Primaris are now learning more from the only first born then what Girlyman has told them to do. As more veterans cross the rubicon I believe they will get stronger, smarter, and better.

[@Gr3Nd3LsBan3]

I like how Logan Grimnar handled the Wolf Spears. The old man asked for veterans to volunteer those that survived the the upgrade were attached as wolf guard to the new jarl to help show them how the Vylka fought 10000 years after the original legions were trained.

[@TENGUartesmarciales]

I like the idea of all of cawls primaris phasing out quickly

[@mirr0rmirr0r]

Should have only been armory and vehicle upgrades to begin with.

[@DukeOnkled]

If nothing else, that's an upside to the Primaris Marines. The writing doesn't treat them like perfect super-marines, they're portrayed as the sort of thing they logically would be. Greenhorns that are in way over their heads.

[@obokanVEVO]

A very good video! I think the comparison with mass-produced marines during the Hersey is very apt - they are chaff to hold the tide at bay. Perhaps that is black library's intention? That story about the Brazen Drakes chapter you spoke of opens with the line ‘Apprehend these traitors’. Those Primaris *knew* they were dead men walking, with no recourse.

[@Mr_Feyshade]

This is why I think of my primaries units as first born that have crossed the Rubicon, and are tougher for the experience.

[@lukemckay3262]

Unless your a named character, or have some BS chaos immortality hack, your lifespan in the 40k setting is limited at best no matter your strength or skill.

[@CrimsonTemplar2]

Some very solid points. I’d add to this that the Primaris have some disconcerting echos of the Thunder Warriors going on. They’re mass produced - even more than Astartes during the Great Crusade - and thrown at problems en masse. I seem to recall that there have been mentions in the lore that they may not have the longevity of first-born marines.

[@Commodore22345]

Would actually be kinda funny if the Imperium stabilizes again and Guilliman repeats his father's actions and orders the Primaris to be exterminated like the Emperor ordered the Thunder Warriors to be exterminated after the Unification Wars.

[@durrangodsgrief6503]

@@Commodore22345 the thunder warriors one had a reason they served their purpose and were going to die slow agonizing deaths so the emperor just cut out the middle man

[@Saurophaganax1931]

@@durrangodsgrief6503 still pretty shitty. We all die slo agonizing deaths, doesn’t mean we all deserve to get butchered. I think the issue is more that they were unstable. Bordering on unhinged. To the point that the Emperor was losing control of them and they were themselves becoming a threat to the nascent Imperium.

[@tenjenk]

@@Commodore22345 That doesnt make any sense given the Primaris are his personal pet project gifted to the other chapters and this isnt an issue inherent to their being but one of their training and application.

[@MrWepx-hy6sn]

First borns will be phased out soon in lore (if they aren't already since everyone and their grandma is crossing the Rubicon) and in the tabletop we'll get "replacements" for old firstborn units. The Primaris thing was nothing more than an updated model line tbf, and also something they could trademark (can't trademark Space Marise, but sure as fuck can Trademark Primaris Marines) First borns are not coming back outside of the Horus Heresy line

[@maddmann9498]

The Wolf Times novel from Dawn of Fire went in depth about this subject and I agree with your argument as far as to say that the Primaris are amateur's in live combat and that the indoctrination routine of each Space Marine Chapter and it Legion is critical in to marine's physical and mental composure in and outside combat. Not to mention Fabius Biel might find a way to reengineer and add to Caul's work to make a new Chaos Space Marine... maybe even a new Primach

[@lordrevan571]

4:30, Because, as usual, the Custodes were overstepping because GW has no idea how to write these bastards into the lore correctly. Custodes, even during the Indomitus Crusade, didn't hold any actual battlefield authority outside of escorting the Primaris to their respective chapter. The correct thing they should have done, as tell the Primaris "Alright, looks like this is going to be your first real taste of combat, get ready." Instead, the detained the entire compartment of Primaris? Why? Despite my lack of skill and training I would be doing the same thing, questioning why these Golden Honor Guards all of a sudden got a lore update without me knowing that gave them authority, outside of the Captain-General, none of them should even have been talking, but GW really needed to shoehorn in their Custodes (They people to buy their models no one is playing Custodes in TT right now.) And so the Primaris get wiped out. This would NEVER have happened before GW started going hogwild with their writing, it makes no sense and follows no battlefield doctrine- Hell, the Tome Keepers chapter of the Space Marines would more than likely make a fuss about this, as would many others. If the chapter you were en-route to reinforce turns renegade, its now your duty to dispose of them. Bad writing is honestly plaguing GW and it won't be getting better any time soon.

[@stuntmankelp3198]

This is a really good video. I'm currently reading "Wrath of the Lost" by Chris Forrester. It's a new Flesh Tearers novel that's really good. It follows a company of entirely primaris Flesh Tearers as they reestablish themselves on the Flesh Tearer's homeworld (after the devastation of Baal). And I've been noticing that the primaris seem to die a bunch and have less than nuanced tactics. This video really helped put things in prospective for me and also validates Gabriel Seth's, and other's concerns regarding the new primaris marines.

[@skipmage]

My legion The Emperors Hounds, was created for TTRPG so they are far from normal. but they recruit direct from the battle field. They find those guardsmen who, in impossible situations hold the faith. Almost every battle brother was once a nearly crippled mortal soldier. There is no substitute for zeal. While a child might believe in the Emperor or may be indoctrinated that is no match for a man full grown who has had his faith tested and not been found wanting. All of this is to say that in my chapter, Primaris are not even regarded as well as the puppies. When girlyman forced others to accept the primaris at gun point, we accepted (the Emperors Hounds are drastically under strength). Then we stripped them of gear, gave them a set of carapace and a combat knife and five requisition, and promptly sent them on training maneuvers. I am just waiting for a single sign of corruption in any of the players who insist on being primaris. So far all good.

[@knightofeee]

I think that this is wonderful writing and story telling. The primaris are just kids who woke in as astartes, in most stories they do die alot more then marines and in the first battle I read with primaris I noticed how easy some of them just got dropped. And it has been a consistent theme with them.. One of the more recent books even mentioned that at the start they had high casualties but as time went on their casualty rates dropped. The Space wolves even started implementing that the Primaris undergo a modified version of the trials their recruits go through give them the specials stuff. Think of all the ridiculous trials all the astartes put their aspirants through, think on how the brutal conditions these recruits come from. The primaris are missing that key component and I really like they kept the natural consequences that would arise by the rules of the 40k universe. It is a story element that we have not gotten before and is pretty cool for all the elements in the lore it is giving us.

[@dabba_dabba]

I like to imagine The Emperor COULD of made Primarus. But chose not to. My evidence is how Big E gave knowledge psychically to Corax who made the Raptor Project (something i consider Primarus before Primarus). Why did Big E not initially make Primarus? Because in the long run, he wanted Humanity to be self reliant. He did not want them always relying on Astartes to always save them and worst case scenario, rule them. They were intended as a short term tool to conquer the Galaxy after all. Cawl had the intelligence to create Primarus but he lacked the Wisdom and the Humility to see why he shouldn't

[@diggman88]

See thats a good point instead of reinventing the Space Marine legions. Cawl could have done something more strategically impactful. Like improving the imperial guard's weapons like better laser weapons, better vehicles and improved warships.

[@STONE___]

The Emperor (Beloved by all in his glorious Majesty) could not forsee the betrayal of his best creation, A Primarch, so, its safe to say he couldnt prepare for every potential deviation of the timeline, this after The Imperium conquered the galaxy and erased thousands of Xenos races from history, The Emperor wanted the Astarted to be more that the guardian protectors of his realm, never saw the need for stronger warriors because he already had them, for the time obviously, when he rises again i bet he is the one who takes the Primaris and primes them to the absolutme maximum potential.

[@Yurt_enthusiast7]

Dunno how it is nowadays but old lore hinted that Space Marines never was meant to be a long term solution. Just like Thunder warriors before them the legions were meant to be dismantled when the conquering was over.

[@thesmilinggun-knight9646]

I fail to understand why the emperor desire for humanity to be self-sufficient would stop him from creating primaris no offence but that just seems silly.

[@dabba_dabba]

@@thesmilinggun-knight9646 no offense at all! I would think it's silly if I got offended if my head cannon got questioned about a fictional universe lol. It's my head cannon, i don't expect others to believe it but I'll share it for a friendly discussion First I should mention I have a couple theories on why the Emperor did not create Primaris but the one mentioned is just my favorite. The way I see it, Astartes were a tool given to humanity by GEoM to conquer the Galaxy and protect them within a specific time until Humanity was ready to do it themselves. The long Goal being having all of humanity evolving naturally to a powerful psychic species and not through transhumanism. Had the firstborn been stronger, there would be a risk humanity would rely on Astartes to always save the day instead of figuring it out themselves. Much like a doctor prescribing pain killers, the goal is to give enough to get through the pain untill the patient is healed and they can wean off of it not give so much they can't function without it even after healed. I'm not in a point where I can get deep into it but I hope this helps and any thoughts are welcomed

[@benciudovchgottdank3460]

In the Knights of MacCragge book, that one Primaris marine who was kind of a dick the whole time (who redeemed himself at the end by sacrificing himself for a couple of mortals after looking down on them the whole time) really seemed quite durable actually. He survived quite a lot before being taken down in the end

[@FyruHawk]

Since I'm still a newer 40k fan I don't have a super strong opinion on the artificially grown primaris marines. Don't super like them or super hate them. I don't have anything against them existing but I agree that they could've been written better. I do personally prefer the way the new armor and bolters looks though. Guess my primaris army can all be upgraded first borns or something like that.

[@gerardmontgomery280]

I'm a born again gamer. I played 2nd to 4th edition and have just got back into the game. I love how the Nu Marines look most of the old marine model are the same ones I was playing with 20 years ago and they're really showing their age. As for the lore, well 10th edition looks set to wipe out the divide between old and new so I guess they've finally earned their chops.

[@johnreed4743]

It's simple: you need to have someone get their shit kicked in to make the enemies look strong. As newbies Space Marines that exist in the hundreds of thousands, they are the perfect candidates. They're strong enough to hype up whoever defeats them, and faceless enough that nobody will bitch about it.

[@valdr2286]

I love primaris but it you shouldn't start as one. You need to earn it by proving yourself in battle as worthy. Neophite go through the surgery become and astarties then primares. Btw I WANT A TYBEROS PRIMARIS MODEL

[@livefromtheblacklibrary]

Oh GOD Abbadon would be fucked

[@valdr2286]

@@livefromtheblacklibrary Abba who? Abba gone!

[@TornaitSuperBird]

@@valdr2286 Mama Mia!

[@valdr2286]

@@TornaitSuperBird exactly

[@DarkTider]

I kinda have to agree with the word bearer here. As someone who was around 10.000 years earlier and probably took part in the grand crusade, seeing all that power and potential wasted these days must just be a level of disappointment that can only be comparable to an old artisan seeing a 20-year old have all this fancy equipment and STILL have no clue what he is actually doing.

[@Neoronindojo]

i think the primaris have some hero's journey's to go through and we should all give that time to develop through the lore . the hints are there that they are like children still ,i think different chapter will have to make there new trails and training to make them fulfill there potential .

[@Michael-bn1oi]

Been nearly 6 years. Still dumb

[@tarektechmarine8209]

The origin lore Still and forever will be the biggest blunder of primaris.

[@christopherholmes7324]

I respect your statement. 👍

[@Newbtuber]

I think it would of made more sense if they had made them not as improvement, but rather they were prototype of the First Born found. Leading to Belisaruius trying to recreate how to make space marine instead of trying to improve them. The primaris would instead be lesser or imperfect version of first born. The main issue most people seem to have is that the Primaris are made to be an actual improvement over First Born which is hard to digest. Surely the emperor would of developed them instead if they were an actual improvement.

[@chongwillson972]

@@Newbtuber why make lesser space marines? that would just make far worse.

[@ravenRedwake]

2:23 having them be scouts first is terrible because that puts them behind enemy lines. That’s some rough on the job training. It makes a lot more sense for them to be trained as tactical/battle line bolter jocks first, then spread to special/heavy weapons, close support.

[@Deathwing-Y2K]

A well done video, I have had the same thoughts about the Primaris myself. I feel like they just lack the character of the older marines. As you said in the video, they were released as a cash grab. A way to make older space marine players have to buy new models. As a result, they were ham fisted into the story with very minor attempts to make logical in universe reasons for them to be accepted.

[@Archon762]

Meanwhile on Fenris: Alright Bloodclaw, here's a chainsword and bolt pistol. Now get in your Power Armor and talk to us when you're not in a youngster bloodfrenzy

[@fern1009]

I mean, my interpretation is that the Primaris were rushed into the assorted chapters by Guilliman, who probably guessed there would be issues but felt that it was better to use the Primaris immedietely and save the Imperium (what was left of such) than let them be slowly assimilated into the legions.

[@Southerly93]

I think this is a lesson on why astartes are not trained by the mechanicus, or why they aren't kept in deep storage when not in use. It's the life experience and warrior culture that make astartes powerful. The primaris might as well be extra strong Skitarii using primarch gene seed. Also this has a lot of parallels with Star Wars and the heavy casualties on the first battle of Geonosis. The clones were essentially a brand new army with zero veterans in it, and as a result, took way more casualties than it had to. Later in the war, the veteran clones became extremely lethal and efficient. As much as I really don't like primaris or how they've been implemented, I like this angle and hope the first wave of primaris develop a lot like the first wave of clones

[@AKlover]

IMO the Black Templars properly short circuit this by just attaching A newbie to A veteran.

[@syphe101]

Been playing this game since the 90's. I remember when "Firstborn", or just space marines back then would go from scout to Assault Marine, jump pack close combat troops once initiated on the ways of the Chapter during the scout. Once they again proved themselves there, they would move to tactical. Devastator Squads were meant for old-head tactical marines back then. A good visual example would be the Long Fangs of the Space Wolves; all grey hair. I think the Blood Angels, with their penchant for blood and close quarters also assigned the old veterans to Devastator Squads. With all this fluff history in mind, I like this retcon change in the story and think it makes more sense.

[@kharnthebetrayer1575]

3rd edition maybe? Been sooo long.

[@laajsdeunknown9144]

They might make some kind of split in the imperium for lore as the primaris debate looks a lot like council of nikea....

[@KarlPHorse]

I don’t know man. Still seems kinda like the salty firstborn are just being babies. I mean, the us vs them language that dicorian(no clue how to spell his name) uses, makes me think that the problem is this idea that primaris are something else. Like they’re a completely different entity apart from firstborn marines. They’re just a slight upgrade, it’s not like the difference between an astarte and a custode. It’s nothing more than new tools to do the same job. Like a new power armor MK, or bolt gun pattern. As another imperial fist once said, “they are to replace the firstborn in the same way that a neophyte will one day replace a captain.” I think that the real reason they dislike primaris is because they feel they should have received these new tools first, as they have seniority. And I’ll be real, I agree 100%. The first primaris should have been veterans. But unfortunately for them, Rubicon Primaris is (supposedly) super risky. And accidentally killing a shit load of experienced space marines on an operating table isn’t exactly a good use of resources. So most firstborn will remain firstborn until they either die, or the technology improves to a point that rubicon primaris is safer. But soon there will be no firstborns and primaris. There will just be astartes. Because eventually they will all be primaris. And I don’t think that’s a bad thing. Like I said. New tools, same job. Of course they aren’t completely wrong. Primaris marines should still have to go through the scout and reserve companies before serving on the battle line. But that is still such a strange thing to whine about when it’s they’re own fault, not the primaris marines. Like, they’re not under a separate command. The chapter decides what companies they serve in. Like they can just assign the primaris reinforcements they get to the scout company and make them go through the process like every other marine. It’s kinda weird that these firstborn leaders complain about primaris not serving in the scout and reserve companies when they literally control unit assignment. Unless the chapter master insists on personally handling each and every personnel assignment. In which case, be mad at him, not the primaris. Imagine if the commandant of the marine corps let a bunch of new recruits who haven’t finished boot camp, deploy to the Middle East. And then complained about how badly they performed, saying that they should have finished their training. Like, my dude. If you want your guys to be fully trained, then train them. Don’t send them into the thick of combat and then shit on them because they all die as a result of your insane decision not to prepare them.

[@varlmorgaine3700]

The problem is that the firstborn leadership really dont want to give experience to the primaris, they could, like the white scars example, mix and so give them the experience but they are not interested in that, the primaris feel pushed away and try to show their worth by just jumping into fights who they then die because of the lack of experience

[@keres993]

Like firstborn, Primaris likely have a wide range of skill. Some primaris seem to rival some firstborn, and that's a fun dynamic. I like the dynamic they add, especially after watching this video. They add a lot to the lore. Subscribed!

[@LebenderPanzer]

I pray they keep the primaris like this, with their main weakness being how seemingly rushed they are and with primaris characters having to eventually learn to overcome their flaws. It actually gives them weaknesses and makes them seem less like a flat out upgrade compared to normal astartes.

[@OldGoat-cw8he]

Black Templars do it an interesting way, they have initiates and neophytes on a squad together. Learning as they work their way up. Or they just killed the Primaris😁🤷‍♂️ Dark Angels use them as cannon fodder. I would bet A LOT, of Chapters would choose to do this. They get the experience or die, for Space Marines this is about right. Would explain why they always die.

[@wiaf8937]

the youtube algorithm sends me. ill give you the benefit of the doubt and try to have you carry me into slumber. so far, i am well impressed. that ambience is nice, also good spesh marine voices. subbed for sure

[@huwtindall7096]

I like everything about Primaris and it adds a great new plot line to the Marine narrative

[@briHammer40K]

Great insight and choice of topic 👏👏👏 I love your channel because we get to debate interesting shit like this. Keep up the great work mate 👌

[@livefromtheblacklibrary]

Thanks man! I will!

[@jonathanthompson4734]

If first born don't get any love alongside primaris, I hope we get an end times for 40k and a reset to before roboute returned. GW didn't need to change the sculpts, they just had to increase the scale. They didn't need to add to the lore like this. It's always a minute to midnight but the galaxy is so large that any number of events could take place in it without advancing the story too far

[@AstartesPanda]

Thats somthing that has bugged me in recent years. I had no problem with them nudging it along abit here and there, like with the I think 6th edition explaining how the astromonicon (how ever you spell it) is growing dim and the golden throne is fucking up and its getting harder and harder to fix as time as on. Further driving home the theme of imperium just being in more and more shitty situation. But the primaris and gullyman .....it really didnt need it. The setting to me was set up in such a way that like you say its all about to turn to shit but with a universe so big and the time period alot of shit can and does still happen.

[@seanbrazell7095]

"...we have fought the long war for ten-thousand years..." Archmagos Belisarius Cawl: EXACTLY.

[@thuzan117]

there is a book that does a very good job explaining the inexperience of Primaris. Basically a pair of Ultramarines, one a chaplain and the other I think a newly minted assault sergeant are put in charge of leading a squad of Primaris assigned to them. One of their first combat missions was boarding an imperial ship that wasn't responding and encountering Iron warriors. The two normie marines kept a cool head and gave out orders but the newmbies bumbled frequently, with one of them basically throwing himself at an Iron Warrior kamikaze style in a suicide attack for no reason, and this was a Chaplain saying this. The two normie marines quickly concluded the Primaris were way too green and undisciplined. The mission got done and the Primaris did grow a bit throughout but the normie marines didn't make it.

[@mobiusZero2]

A short Dark Angel story, there's a 3 man squad of Primaris, were sent to a traitor ship to locate the bridge. They were judged by their firstborn brothers not as equals or earn to called brothers, these 3 what were remaining from their full 10 from mission after mission. During their mission, one of them scouted ahead to clear a path. But was killed before met up with death wing Terminators for the bridge but ordered to hold the line. One was killed by Sonic weapon, and the remaining one held the line against a swarm of cultists. Running out of ammo and a knife losing its sharpness, he shouted in the lions name and carried his will as he was about to die but saved by the Death wing. Through his actions, he was proven himself in battle and inducted into the death wing

[@LordCrate-du8zm]

That Word Bearer absolutely DEMOLISHED Arios. Not even the Emperor in his prime could come back from such a roast.

[@HeinrichKonig]

This really sounds like quiet protest by the Black Library writers. "We can't declare the primaris non-canon due to story inconsistencies. We can't write any serious plots about how they'd inevitably cause massive schisms among the space marines between those who accept them and those who don't, and anything that touches on that subject has to frame the dissenters as jerks..." "... But we *can* make them massive dumbass punching bags!"