Why Protestant Criticism of Pope Francis Backfires

In this episode, Trent Horn comments on the controversy surrounding Pope Francis’ endorsement of Fr. Martin’s LGBT Conference and shows how Protestant criticisms of the Pope can be used to undermine Christianity itself.
To support this channel: / counseloftrent
00:00 Intro
00:55 Pope Francis' Letter to Fr James Martin, SJ
03:24 When Protestants Argue Like Atheists
05:30 Dr Jordan Cooper's Response
10:53 James White's Argument
17:40 Awkward Explanations
24:47 The Pragmatic Response
31:42 Warning to Catholics
34:37 Conclusion

[@shamounian]

WOW TRENT! You clipped Shabir's statements from the debate he had with me, which was my first! I am flattered sir!

[@TheCounselofTrent]

Very nice! Nice job debating him!

[@jackclearyy]

Did not expect to see the Shamounian in this comments section, what a pleasant surprise

[@buddyduddyful]

Many Protestant's appear to have a vendetta against the Catholic Church.

[@dallasbrat81]

I look forward to your video investigating the Biblical defense of Pergatory. I hope it's soon

[@timboslice980]

I will always be grateful for James White. The lord used that man to break me free from jehovahs witness madness. I became a calvinist for 10 years after that.... I also thank god for Trent for breaking me out of calvinism, the debate with james white put me over the fence for catholicism. Many of the things i learned about catholicsim come from james white and every bit of it was a lie so i have mixed feelings about the man.

[@timboslice980]

@Christ_saves938 Thanks... it seems so silly looking back on it but they were the first group I fell in with once I became a believer. I remember doing research and the NIV translators admit to removing the word jehovah from their Bible because they knew it wouldn't sell. To paraphrase one of the men in charge: "if it says jehovah is my shepherd I shall not want it won't sell a copy" that was when I decided to take them serious. James White focused on the changes the JWs made to scrilture to fit their theology and I saw the hypocrisy. It wasn't easy to leave them, they were tracking me down, emailing, calling, all after I told them please no more correspondence. I brought up several issues I had learned about and they were unwilling to address any of them. They said there's a level of wisdom one must attain before they can understand why these changes were made. Anyway I still talk to them today and still use the same 3 passages that stumped them before. Calvinism was tougher because they have a pretty decent systematic theology... they're very good at highlighting and extrapolating from single Bible verses. Even better at hiding contradictory Bible verses, mental gymnastics, and much much stronger biblical foundation. Still it has its holes and much of the last decade I spent trying to understand it. Studied the reformers, followed James white and Doug Wilson.

[@davidlarssen15]

@@_ready__ How does it cloak truth

[@timboslice980]

@_ready__ Well 10 years of confusion from the calvinists and 100% clarity with Catholics. I'm reading and learning from scripture like never before. For example... I'd read unless you are born of water and spirit you cannot enter the kingdom. Obviously baptism but my calvinist theology wouldn't let me see it. I would say I don't know what that means but it can't be baptism. I would read baptism now saves you and think no it doesn't. Only faith in christ.... I would read we are saved by works and not by faith alone and think that can't be right. It got to a point where I started to passively ignore Bible passages like that. Protestant apologetics is almost like a training program for interpretation and omission of scripture rather than subject to it. When scripture is plainly saying something and you're disagreeing with it because of your theology then you aren't really following sola scriptura. In fact I would go as far to say protestantism is the art of bending scripture to their theology.

[@timboslice980]

@_ready__ Funny how protestants cant deal with the arguments so they try and attack your character. Sad how you use the Bible to try to do that... Catholics attack the man made prot doctrines not the protestants themselves. I've never accused a protestant of not having a relationship with christ, never told one they're going to hell, never accused them of lying on purpose. The theologies are simply scripture filters, highlighting some scripture and hiding others. Catholics do not operate on sola scriptura and neither do protestants... its whatever man made tradition you follow. The reformation happened 500 years ago... doctrines like sola fide, sola scriptura, editing out the deuterocanon, premillenial dispensationalism, Mormons, jws, 7DAs, messianic jews, oneness pentacostals, and a flurry of anything goes versions of Christianity happened in a blast of a couple hundred years. Martin Luther wanted every man to be his own pope and to this day there's millions of people who say their theology is fine to ignore scripture and dismiss it, contradict it, twist it, and use it to make people think they ALL know what the NT says better than the church that produced it. Let me ask you a question, which man made tradition/denomination do you hold to?

[@rodneyferris4089]

The Grace of God has a sense of humour! You surely proved that as well! Isn’t it amazing how the Holy Spirit tempers the Waters of Salvation!

[@benclark1482]

As a protestant, James white doesn't do much to keep me that way

[@sivad1025]

As a Protestant, James White embodies every criticism I have of Protestantism

[@wayned803]

What could he do in order to make you more likely to become Catholic?

[@sophiabergner7191]

James White basically lit the canon that shot me into Catholicism 😂😂😂 i hung on to his apologetics for soo long trying to convince myself he was right but ultimately realized he fabricates history & is so malignant in his approach he pushes a lot of people away. It’s really sad. I couldn’t hang on to Jame’s false version of Christianity any longer.

[@sivad1025]

@@sophiabergner7191 No joke. I'm still protestant atm but his sola scriptura debate with Patrick Madrid completely uprooted my worldview on scripture and has since left me in religious limbo

[@sophiabergner7191]

@@sivad1025 i highly recommend just taking time off of his channel and pray for God to increase a hunger in your heart for wherever his church truly is. For me it was the Eucharist mostly. I jumped from baptist, to Anglican, to Lutheran churches and always felt like I was spiritually deprived of something deeper. I couldn’t deal with the spiritual musical chairs of Protestant denominations any more. I needed a set of doctrine that was uniform and unchanging. The only church that has this is the Catholic Church. & now when i have angst or questions, I know with complete certainty where I’ll find the answers. And the 20 Catholic Churches in my town would say those same answers. Christ prayed for unity in his church. The fruit of 10,000 denominations of Protestantism is the opposite of this. For me, the “bad pope” argument was the least convincing. There are plenty of atrocious Protestant scandals as well yet we don’t hear about it because it’s not in such a large view like the pope is. We don’t see magazines and blogs posting headlines about James White’s lack of charity. Satan attacks the RCC more than any other denomination in the world. I wonder why? - because it’s the church Christ founded & he knows it. Grace and peace to you friend.

[@RGTomoenage11]

Let’s be honest. We had way too many liberal priests. It’s actually a problem.

[@frumaatholoid]

*had and have

[@RGTomoenage11]

@@frumaatholoid that’s what I meant.

[@wayned803]

I haven't been a Catholic for very long, but in my studies of my confirmation Saint Ignatius of Loyola, my intuition of him is that he would say that if we do indeed have dirtbag clergy then the reason is because we are dirtbag Christians. They shoulder a ton of spiritual responsibility, and it's our job to assist in any way possible

[@RGTomoenage11]

@@wayned803 you may be right. I wouldn’t say they are dirtbags but it seems that they have forgotten to follow the catechism. But you are right. No one is perfect…

[@wayned803]

@@RGTomoenage11 one utterly amazing thing I've noticed about the Catholic Church --and I can't stress this enough, and it's actually one of the causes of my conversion --is even when She's "wrong" She's still somehow even more right. Ie, If clergy ever speak in some kind of error, this causes a reaction from laity or other clergy to correct the problem all while maintaining unity (notice that within Protestantism, whenever a single controversial statement is made, five new denominations spring up as a result)

[@FirstLast-po8oz]

"if it's only binding when he's declaring faith and morals, why pay attention to him the rest of the time" uh, I kind of don't? I pray for him, but "Popeganda" doesn't live rent free in my head because as you say, it doesn't matter. He's not an influencer and he's not a tyrannical king, he's more like an appeals judge. We don't need to hang on every single thing he says. His letters and publications will trickle down into my life when I need them. White and his ilk spend way more time thinking about the Pope than most of the devout Catholics I know.

[@jon6car]

Well said. If more us began to work for positive change within our sphere of influence instead of trying to worry what the Pope is doing. The Church would be in a much better state.

[@davidcole333]

That's a very good point. I really don't think about the pope very much until I see something he has said or done that is turned into a negative news cycle for the church.

[@TheThreatenedSwan]

It's also perfectly possible for people of a higher station and understanding to mislead and bear the culpability for those in their flock. James White, and most low church protestants, seemingly just doesn't believe in those verses straight out of the Bible at all even though he misled people on something that made it dubious whether he was even Christian for years in his tritheism

[@imjustheretogrill9260]

You are required to give submission of mind and will, though not faith, to everything the pope teaches. This includes fallible teachings of his ordinary magisterium.

[@FriendsofTomMcKenna]

I agree. Trent's last comments about the risk of apostasy if we identify manifest scandalous or erroneous pronouncements from Francis is too ultramontane for my tastes. It's simple: unless speaking definitively on a matter of Divine Faith or morals, everything uttered by the Pope (or bishop or priest) must simply be weighed against the Magisterium. The Pope is a mere vessel to hand the riches of the Magisterium from his predecessor to his successor, not to be deviating from established doctrine (e.g., capital punishment). Overall Trent is right, a fawning missive to a group of likely dissenters is imprudent, probably evil, but does not affect the legitimate status of the teaching authority of the Vicar of Christ.

[@johnthetenor]

Bae wake up it’s time to watch The Backfire™️ with Trent Horn

[@halleylujah247]

Hey! yay! You are back!

[@migdeliaarvizu2298]

White is always criticizing the Catholic Church like if he always says perfect things. As much as he researches the Catholic Church it’s unreal how he hasn’t converted. Probably doesn’t convert because of pride. He knows the TRUTH but he will never admit he’s wrong.

[@chivalrousjack]

Bae? You realize that is still the same amount of syllables as "Babe", right? It doesn't sound better. Just in case you thought it did. You're welcome.

[@RomingAroundTown]

@@chivalrousjackIs this a satirical comment?

[@chivalrousjack]

@@RomingAroundTown Use your intelligence. Ask yourself.

[@kynesilagan2676]

Always ending on a high charitable assertive note, Trent! Always praying that someday a local Trent Horn will rise here in our country, Philippines. Catholic apologetics here seriously need a large dose of Charitability.

[@nocturne2029]

It could be you!

[@SlaveofGod777]

God bless you, Trent!

[@BeauBeckwith]

Great video as usual, Trent. Thanks

[@brendonpremkumar8207]

I'm a Protestant, but I'm tempted to convert to Catholicism on account of James White's horrible arguments. And in general, his demeanor is so horrible and I would not like to be in a room with him for any amount of time.

[@TheCounselofTrent]

If you're interested in joining a community to ask more questions about Catholicism, I recommend checking out crossthetiber.org

[@TitusFlavius11]

@@ProtestantKing7James white is one of the stupidest Protestants out there and that’s saying something

[@LionofJudahApologetics]

@@bersules8 Encyclical Redemptoris Missio, salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, inasmuch as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ's redeeming sacrifice, without external membership in the Church, but nonetheless always in relation to her (cf. RM 10). It is a mysterious relationship. It is mysterious for those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her. It is also mysterious in itself, because it is linked to the saving mystery of grace, which includes an essential reference to the Church the Savior founded. In order to take effect, saving grace requires acceptance, cooperation, a yes to the divine gift. This acceptance is, at least implicitly, oriented to Christ and the Church. Thus it can also be said that sine ecclesia nulla salus - - "without the Church there is no salvation." Belonging to the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, however implicitly and indeed mysteriously, is an essential condition for salvation.

[@LionofJudahApologetics]

@@ProtestantKing7 Encyclical Redemptoris Missio, salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, inasmuch as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ's redeeming sacrifice, without external membership in the Church, but nonetheless always in relation to her (cf. RM 10). It is a mysterious relationship. It is mysterious for those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her. It is also mysterious in itself, because it is linked to the saving mystery of grace, which includes an essential reference to the Church the Savior founded. In order to take effect, saving grace requires acceptance, cooperation, a yes to the divine gift. This acceptance is, at least implicitly, oriented to Christ and the Church. Thus it can also be said that sine ecclesia nulla salus - - "without the Church there is no salvation." Belonging to the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, however implicitly and indeed mysteriously, is an essential condition for salvation.

[@djo-dji6018]

Study Catholicism and you'll find proper reasons to join the Catholic Church. James White's arguments and antics shouldn't be the cause of your convertion.

[@user-uc1yb7hy2n]

James White very awkwardly tried to explain away Ignatius of Antioch a few years ago. It’s nearly unwatchable. Good video Trent.

[@thenazarenecatholic]

Do you know which video that is? I’d like to listen to it if I can

[@user-uc1yb7hy2n]

@@thenazarenecatholic I can’t properly cite it. It was from a few years ago. Sorry.

[@thenazarenecatholic]

@@user-uc1yb7hy2n that's alright!

[@MeanBeanComedy]

Thank God for James White. Pushing people into Catholicism one invective at a time. 😎👉🏻👉🏻 ✝️☦️✝️

[@wjtruax]

White’s snarky comments and snide attitude are the absolute opposite of the winsome and gracious words and attitudes of the Catholics (and Orthodox) I spoke to during my movement away from Reformed Calvinism. I was stunned when both Catholic and Orthodox priests I consulted with all said, “Slow down, take it easy. We’re the Catholic (Orthodox) Church. We’ve been around for 2000 years. We’re not going anywhere.” That attitude just made me want to be part of those traditions even more. I have now been Catholic for just under three months.

[@watariovids1645]

@@wjtruax James White is the type of person who even if I agreed with him on everything I wouldn't be able to stand being in a room with him. Pretty much all of the personality traits I find abrasive and undesirable.

[@wjtruax]

@@watariovids1645 my father loves to say, “No one is worthless. At the very least, everyone can be a bad example.” But I feel very sorry for James White, because if the Lord is gracious and White’s ignorance does not prove invincible, the abject humiliation he would have to subject himself to in order to be reconciled to the Catholic Church would be almost unfathomable.

[@wayned803]

James White is a perfect example of the idea that Protestantism is for folks who wish to treat Scripture as a legal textbook and the cross as a loophole for a pardon. Catholicism, however, is for those who look to the cross as a source of grace to legitimately heal their fallen nature

[@TheThreatenedSwan]

@@wjtruax Very cool. I have never understood why Calvinists even bother when they are supposedly determinists. It is questionable the degree to which they internalize their nominal beliefs, but it is a more logical way out of certain problems of authority/interpretation, and it explains their behavior since it's an anti-intellectual easy out when you can disregard reason and just say your opponent is just a reprobate and you have the true interpretation. They also disregard causality because while other protestant denominations could get away with the efficient means of their coming to certain knowledge being tradition, even if they don't like using that word, Calvinists seem to act like that doesn't actually matter at all as if the efficient means of the faith being communicated through their family, congregation, theologians down the line, etc, is just an illusion of them being called and having perspicuity in sola scriptura.

[@TheBlinkyImp]

Focusing on papal infallibility misses the point. One essential argument of Catholics is that you need the magisterium in order to interpret the Bible. This is the main reason given for why Sola Scripruta is wrong. The problem arises when the head of the magisterium does not give correct teaching. If Catholic leadership errs in their interpretations of the Bible, why do I need them? If you can say the Pope is wrong to support LGBT because it goes against the Bible, then you are already essentially a Protestant. The Reformation simply says that the Church can be wrong, and let's fix it when it is. The Catholics say the Church has never been wrong, even on issues like indulgences where it obviously was/is. That's the difference.

[@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc]

Rekindling the Reformation (youtube)

[@tbojai]

Trent your ministry is such a blessing to us, and a bright example of speaking the Truth in Love. I’m praying for you today. Keep up the great work.

[@neilwankhar3325]

Trent fallacy: Muslim and Atheist criticising the language of the Bible = Protestant criticising Pope’s letter to Letter to the LGBTQ conference Therefore Biblical divine origins is synonymous with the papacy

[@guidohlizzi06]

Not at all. The second clause is actually fallacious. Because an atheist would never recognize the divine origins of the Bible. So that is not a part of the argument. And... who says the papacy isn't divine in origin? You? Protestants? In that case, who's to say the Church itself is divine in its origin? You really applied some messed up logic right there.

[@batmaninc2793]

"What do they get wrong?" Well, they're protestant. Already off to a bad start.

[@davidjanbaz7728]

Stick to crime fighting: LOL 😆

[@batmaninc2793]

@@davidjanbaz7728 Heresy is a crime against God. And protestantism is heretical. So...

[@LionofJudahApologetics]

@@batmaninc2793Pope JhonPaul 2 Encyclical Redemptoris Missio, salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, inasmuch as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ's redeeming sacrifice, without external membership in the Church, but nonetheless always in relation to her (cf. RM 10). It is a mysterious relationship. It is mysterious for those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her. It is also mysterious in itself, because it is linked to the saving mystery of grace, which includes an essential reference to the Church the Savior founded. In order to take effect, saving grace requires acceptance, cooperation, a yes to the divine gift. This acceptance is, at least implicitly, oriented to Christ and the Church. Thus it can also be said that sine ecclesia nulla salus - - "without the Church there is no salvation." Belonging to the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, however implicitly and indeed mysteriously, is an essential condition for salvation.

[@EmberBright2077]

Blind hatred and ridicule is always the best sign that you are right.

[@batmaninc2793]

@@EmberBright2077 That is how protestantism started. Like a bunch of SJW commies mad about Orange Man. After all, protestant Christianity *is* just liberal Christianity. You wouldn't know blind hatred and ridicule if you produced, "Sound of Freedom". Christ built His Church upon St Peter (St. Matthew 16:18), no one and nothing else.

[@signumcrucis4172]

Pope Francis deserves our prayers, our respect and nothing less.

[@danielasaro8762]

Needs prayers for sure. Can't respect anyone who is inept at there job.

[@beebee9803]

​@@ProtestantKing7Francis stated PUBLICLY: "I am NOT the Vicar of Christ." So that means that I (a Catholic) am NOT obliged to follow him. Jesus is my Lord --- I Trust in Him ONLY. ❤

[@user-fb2jb3gz1d]

@@danielasaro8762 that's the most moronic thing to say Pope Francis is our Pope.....to not respect him is to not respect the Roman Catholic Church You seriously need to read your catechism so you don't say ignorant moronic things.

[@christinacanto3740]

@@danielasaro8762it’s your opinion that he is inept, though. He leads a global church. It’s a lot more likely that he is tackling problems the scope of which we can’t see from our limited perspectives. It’s best to be humble in times like these, and trust God is doing exactly what he intends to do with our Pope and our church. If He wanted you to be Pope instead, you would be.

[@jenniferraymond9766]

No earthly representative of Christ who pits Pachamama, a pagan idol in the Vatican to worship deserves any respect. WAKE UP

[@user55lovesfr95]

Being Catholic is enough for me. I never want to listen to haters. I have known them for years. They are the same everywhere. In my own national or native language, they sound just like the English speaker ones. Maybe in other languages that I do not understand, they are the same too. No love in their hearts. Lord, keep and bless this holy Catholic Church that you founded Yourself until You come again.

[@BibleBased-jn3wq]

Well I'm sorry to hear that. I pray that you and your loved ones are abundantly blessed this year and that God will lead you away from Rome and into all truth.

[@pattyserrano9339]

Awesome video as always Trent🎉🎉

[@Saintinthemaking161]

A well done video, thank you! ❤

[@johnhoelzeman6683]

I can't tell you how often I've rolled my eyes when listening to James White speak

[@garrettm.6557]

He's insufferable and a "miracle" in and of itself that anyone can sit through any of his talks

[@HodgePodgeVids1]

Was thinking the same thing

[@chad_hominem]

Jamal Muhammad White is insufferable. But like you said, at least God can use his false doctrine to bring ppl to the fullness of the truth and the One True Church of Christ to his own shame and humiliation.

[@michaeldouglas5096]

@@chad_hominem Do you think James White is a follower of Christ?

[@kelleydelaney6294]

This is Trent at his best!

[@Galaxygacha-ir5ko]

Great vid, Trent! Love your work, sir!

[@lordwilmore8775]

Protestant here, thought this was a fair and balanced take overall. My one criticism would be regarding the pragmatic argument- I would never say that "God would've done it this way" if he meant for there to be an infallible vicar that the church recognized. God has the freedom to do whatever he wants with his creation. Rather, I would simply assert that Catholics oversell the authority and unity the pope provides. For instance: "The Catholic Church is one voice the world looks to for complete, and unalterable guidance.....The issue is, can we go somewhere to know whether these things are right or wrong. And I submit to you tonight that you can, because the Pope and the magisterium has never waffled on any of these issues. If you've watched them the last 30 years, on every issue: population control, abortion, homosexuality, women in the ministry. The church has said no to every one of them like clockwork." The magisterium still officially says no to homosexuality, true. But an honest observer must admit that it's hard to say these words with the same confidence and zeal that Robert Sungenis had 23 years ago.

[@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc]

Ecumenism has been proceeding as planned, unfolding in real time.

[@mikesarno7973]

Dr Jordan Cooper saying that the problem with Pope Francis is his obfuscation, is so rich it has to be fattening.

[@deannajunkin3696]

I am a confessional Lutheran who finds Cooper to be arrogant and condescending. I have no idea why we have raised him up to be our spokesman online. Well, maybe I do. Sadly, most of the confessional Lutheran pastors and theologians who have a public platform and following are exactly the same way. That's probably why I watch Trent, Matt Fradd, etc.

[@popcornchicken6750]

@@deannajunkin3696I’ve always loved cooper even as someone who isn’t a Lutheran, and though he can seem arrogant at times I’ve always found him to be very nice to listen to on certain things

[@isblcrpld]

God bless you, Trent.

[@alexs.5107]

Great video Trent!

[@christinemcguiness9356]

Thank you Trent, great video. God bless🙏

[@maehabes4097]

Trent you are a great model to me for laying out your arguments with charity. Please pray for me to have courage to do so. I always fail :(

[@cristobalzuniga6909]

Thank you for your teaching.

[@jacoblaan3707]

Very good presentation!

[@wayned803]

Before becoming Catholic I was a Protestant for many years, but the closest thing to Religion I ever experienced on the far side of the Tiber was my time in the United States Marine Corps. And I believe the USMC has a very close analogy for sex: Namely, the Dress Blues Uniform. Notice, this "Divine Gift" is intended for some of the most sacred purposes, and chief among them is "reproduction" (ie, attracting new recruits). Throughout a Marine's career, that uniform is practically never worn (unless he receives the Holy Sacrament of becoming a recruiter, in which case, it's his daily uniform). What happens normally is a marine will spend way way way more time inspecting it, preparing it, ironing it, arranging the medals, etc, than wearing it (if indeed he ever does), and in this way, "chastity" is a prized virtue. In the case of Christianity and disordered sexuality, the analogous error would be if a marine were to take his dress uniform and modify (a euphemism for "corrupt") it in whatever way suited his fancy. And, indeed, many of us come to Christianity with a Dress Uniform absolutely mangled beyond all recognition! But, as bad as that is, it is in many ways much easier to fix disordered sexuality than it is to repair a destroyed marine uniform. As far as I can tell, in many cases, the solution is as plain and simple as plain and simple abstinence! Indeed, what marine wouldn't dream of a dress uniform that fixed itself from the most deplorably tattered conditions imaginable simply by hanging in the closet (apologies for a terrible pun!)?..

[@littledrummergirl_19]

This analogy is awesome!

[@jeandoten1510]

What an amazing analogy! You should find a publisher for this!

[@wayned803]

@@jeandoten1510 thank you, both of you. I was kinda surprised to see this comment liked by many people, because I wasn't sure if civilians would get how "fussy" the Marines are about dress uniforms, what a "sacred privilege" it is to wear them, and the general military wisdom that "if a serviceman has a pristine & immaculately maintained uniform, chances are he's great at his job"

[@TuckerFinch]

I love when you end a video by quoting sacred scripture. Thanks for another great video, Trent. Keep up the good work. Please know that I am praying for you!!!

[@tomgjokaj]

Thank you God bless you Trent 🙏

[@jacqueslefave4296]

Look up some of the Catholic criticism of Pope Francis.🤔😳😱

[@lucidlocomotive2014]

Dr. Travis Horn is back in action! Once again it’s time to view his show!

[@nicholasgregoris3958]

A formal heretic cannot be a true pope.

[@Giant_Meteor]

The main problems are not his moral failings. True enough, most people have moral failings. It's that he has made several heretical public statements (and he is not the first heretic pope). Also, he is de facto apostate (per canon law), for having celebrated rituals and prayers with Jews, Muslims, and Hindus. The notion of an infallible apostate heretic is absurd on its face. There doesn't seem to be agreement on what constitutes an ex cathedra statement. But if he's the guy who occupies the chair, and he renders public statements on doctrine, the cope of carefully delineating what is, and what is not properly "ex cathedra" comes across as arbitrary, ad hoc, useless stupidity.

[@computationaltheist7267]

Assuming your argument is correct and that you're a Protestant, does the Protestant alternative offer a better alternative? After all, some centuries ago, the Calvinists, Lutherans, and Anglicans were issuing anathemas to the Anabaptists and today, those anathemas have disappeared because of "biblical" arguments. In other words, even Protestants can't decide what is "biblical" or even that it is reliable. How sure are Protestants that maybe William Whitaker, Martin Luther, or John Calvin's condemnations of the Anabaptists and Baptists today were perhaps correct? Another point is on the sin of schism. Most of the early Church Christians taught that schism was a sin. That changed after the Protestant Reformation. All of a sudden, the sin of schism disappeared. Keep in mind that many Churches that claim apostolic succession believe that schism is wrong and sinful. What is the Protestant response? Well, James White says that the early Christians were "wrong" on this topic and Gavin Ortlund tries to interpret the early Christians as meaning something different. If Protestants can blunder like this, what exactly is "Biblical"? Well, in your own words, being Biblical is "arbitrary, ad hoc, useless stupidity."

[@joelpenley9791]

Excellent video.

[@teejah7785]

May our Lord continue to bless you and your loved ones, Mr Trent Horn. May Christ also bless your ministry. Amen!

[@robertszontagh1297]

Trent does the best he can defending the unholy words of the "Holy Father ".

[@kevinhodges867]

I’ve started watching this channel like taking daily vitamins. Absolutely superb content, Trent. Thank you!

[@davidmascarenas9830]

Where is the link for the original james white video?

[@janissaryfilms]

Hi Trent, I am sure you have gotten a lot of suggestions about this. But I think it would do a lot of good to review the Lila rose, Destiny debate on the whatever podcast. In particular I think it would be good to focus on defending the case against first trimester abortions for those like Destiny who have a hardline stance at around 20 weeks

[@derbywinner6316]

As a Catholic I pray for inclusion of believers with respect , even if we are not agreed in dogma

[@Wilkins325]

As a Protestant, I appreciate you.

[@Athabrose]

As a Lutheran I pray the same. God Bless

[@gilcostello3316]

Thanks Trent. Still the best source for apologetics.

[@rondouglas4296]

I wish Catholic apologists didn't have to spend so much time clarifying the Pope's comments.

[@djo-dji6018]

The problem is not always the Pope, though. Many Catholics have joined the tribal mindset of our times, and call the Pope a heretic even in those (non frequent) occasions when he defends Catholic teachings properly.

[@davidcole333]

There is something VERY common in the business world that I would like to share Many managers and executives are bad leaders. It's rampant. Every person reading this could probably tell a story about a bad boss they've had or someone they know has had. Similarly, I believe the Pope to be a righteous man, a good man, but a bad leader. I know that as Catholics we all crave a strong leader that will boldly proclaim who we are and what we stand for. Pray for Pope Francis. He hasn't much time left. Pray that his successor will have the trait of strong leadership that we all crave.

[@Galaxygacha-ir5ko]

Servant leadership isn't easy. What I see is a servant of Christ who is making every attempt to unify and include everyone. I happen to have worked closely with members of the Ark Community. What impresses me is that many protestants see the value of being unified to the Catholic Church, however, I see many Catholics on KZbin objecting to this unified approach. It is really sad that we don't care for the great commission instituted by Jesus, rather ,we focus on what Pope Francis is misquoted on. Why?

[@bigdogboos1]

The issues with the priests becoming pro homosexual ... and NOT being excommunicated or dethroned as priests is one of the stumbling blocks for me joining the Church. i would puke if i joined and had to leave b/c this stuff went unchecked, letting the filth of the world influence the Chruch instead of the other way around. Too much of that in the protestant world already

[@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc]

Sex Scandal EXPOSURE that started 25 years ago ? You’d think the church would have adequately addressed sexuality and reformed by now. NOPE.

[@sheilazanella1294]

There is no institution in the world that is sinless. All humans are sinners, and to deny this is simply a lie. Jesus chose Judas as one of the 12. Also, read the OT & notice the leaders that are corrupt. I take it you didn't listen to this podcast.

[@ChrisBrackman]

I really appreciate the part starting at 31:30

[@darlameeks]

I was confirmed a Catholic this past Pentecost Sunday, May 28, 2023. I did so largely because of the Holy Father's humility and witness. He projects a child-like faith in Christ, and a passion for unity among the baptized (Catholic and Protestant alike). He reached out to us Protestants in a loving way. He has a passion for the poor, which I consider to be the our Lord's "manifesto" if you will, when he appeared in his hometown of Nazareth and stated, “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to bring the good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to prisoners and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free, 19 and to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.” (Luke 4: 18-19) This is our mission, as well. Simple, right? Pope Francis is exemplary, when discussed in light of Francis's love of the poor. Isn't this also the mission of the Church, if it was Christ's mission? Also, shall we question his call to reach out to Protestants to try to achieve the unity of those baptized in the name of the Trinity? He, who was called to poverty, has reached out to the so-called "prosperity doctrinaires" such as Kenneth Copeland, in a call to Christian unity. kzbin.info/www/bejne/mYTEoXuVraqDppo. I am a Catholic today because of Pope Francis. He is pure of heart. No one should ever say otherwise!

[@chriswest8389]

He seems like a nice guy but what if the next pope is a fire and brimstone reactionary, infallible of course . Where's the consistency.

[@TsoramtandErials]

Trent the Knight💪

[@masterchief8179]

Pope Francis Apostolic Exortation “Amoris Laetitia” (2016). Let us see the argument and check if James White and Jordan Cooper make sense. Yeah, right. _”250. The Church makes her own the attitude of the Lord Jesus, who offers his bound- less love to each person without exception [275]. During the Synod, _*_we discussed the situation of families whose members include persons who experience same-sex attraction, a situation not easy either for parents or for children. We would like before all else to reaffirm that every person, regardless of sexual orientation, ought to be respected in his or her dignity and treated with consideration, while ‘every sign of unjust discrimination’ is to be carefully avoided_*_ [276], particularly any form of aggression and violence. _*_Such families should be given respectful pastoral guidance, so that those who manifest a homosexual orientation can receive the assistance they need to understand and fully carry out God’s will_*_ in their lives [277]”_ . _”251. In discussing the dignity and mission of the family, the Synod Fathers _*_observed that, “as for proposals to place unions between homosexual persons on the same level as marriage, there are ABSOLUTELY NO GROUNDS for considering H*O*M*O*S*E*X*U*A*L_*_ UNIONS to be in _*_ANY WAY similar or EVEN REMOTELY ANALOGOUS to God’s plan for marriage and family”. It is UNACCEPTABLE “that local Churches should be subjected to pressure in this matter and that international bodies should make financial aid to poor countries dependent on the introduction of laws to establish ‘marriage’ between persons of the same sex”_* [278]”. _______ [275] Cf. Bull Misericordiae Vultus, 12: AAS 107 (2015), 407. [276] Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2358; cf. Relatio Finalis 2015, 76. [277] Ibid. 190 [278] Relatio Finalis 2015, 76; cf. conGreGaTion for The doctrine of the faith, Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions between H*om*o*s*ex*u*al Persons (3 June 2003), 4.

[@TheCounselofTrent]

I'm stealing your citation for a response to another comment. -Kyle

[@TheThreatenedSwan]

When Lutherans and Calvinists act like this is a dunk, can't they look in the mirror? I mean, James White especially, he was a tritheist and held a whole grab bag of other heresies for most of his adult life, yet we're supposed to believe the magisterium of James White? All the problems they throw out could be laid against them even moreso. When they read "the gates of hell shall never prevail against the Church" why does this statement matter at all if it means the invisible collection of all believers or some invisible collection of people who just so happened to get it perfectly right (not Cooper or White either now and/or earlier in their life due to their significant changes in belief)

[@user-tb5sq6jm2y]

Generally I think Lutherans use this as defense against Catholics saying we've fallen into liberalism.

[@sonnyjim5268]

I hear what you are saying Trent and generally agree. However, we are living in very difficult times for us believers. We are under assault from all sides and is to much to ask for clarity and strong guidance? If the Pope doesn't provide it, where do we find it?

[@sextwister]

Don't worry, elementary school teachers are busy spreading their beliefs to your children.

[@Marontyne]

Rely on God and not men. Evil is becoming so transparent these days that I am confounded why some bishops can't see it. The Bible is pretty clear on most of it, and many modern problems are just rehashing old problems that we have sound teaching on. We can pray to God directly for guidance in our daily lives where it isn't clear and trust Him.

[@electrical_cord]

@@Marontyne Right, but God has always used fallible men to carry out his mission. Look at all the Old Testament leaders, they were flawed... some to great extent. We can rely on God and also rely on the people God has given us.

[@cyndephillipshohbein8232]

You have a Bible, read it. There are many resources online & in history books. Take notes as you read; they may answer a previous question or pose a new one. Be diligent, & able to back up your findings. Read The Apostles and Church Fathers to give a fuller view… I, personally, do not listen too hard to spiteful, mean-spirited “pastors or teachers.” God’s assistants on Earth should reflect His character to the very best of their abilities. That Mr White, raining down hellfire and brimstone are harmful to all. I did a term paper on “The Golden Rule;” how it is worded and applicable in various churches, religions and philosophies. I earned an A+ on it…

[@PuzzlesC4M]

Hopefully in your local bishops, but even if that isn't the case, we still have the saints and our Lord Jesus Christ's words in Sacred Scripture.

[@maciejpieczula631]

I wish I had James White's confidence with everything I say.

[@djo-dji6018]

But is it genuine confidence if it's inevitably accompanied with sarcasm and loathing?

[@paulmualdeave5063]

I never considered that the holy spirit gave us Pops Francis as there are worse candidates. The roll of the Pope and infallibility is to protect our dogmas from reversing and he has done that. He could do better, is a horrible communicator and leader, but he does do his job. We cannot have good popes without having mediocre popes and we believe despite them all. We believe because of Jesus.

[@derechoplano]

Mediocre? The guy is a scoundrel. A wolf in sheep's clothing. It is not about communication. He knows how to communicate heresy and apostasy in an ambiguous way so, when people complain, he plays the innocent guy. He is excellent at gaslighting. He takes advantage of the fact that we Catholics don't like to criticize the Pope.

[@tbojai]

@@derechoplanoHow ridiculous. You’re clearly not even trying to give our Holy Father the judgement of Charity. Sounds like something Luther himself would say. “We Catholics” treat our Pope with more respect than that. Shameful.

[@djo-dji6018]

​​@@DudeNamedDuncan So one guy on KZbin writes that Catholics don't like to criticise the Pope, and you accept that claim as absolute truth? Catholics have always been critical of their popes, we know very well that errors must be stigmatised, even when coming from the Bishop of Rome. Of course there are also people who always excuse the Pope, but that's against the teachings of the Catholic Church.

[@paulmualdeave5063]

@@DudeNamedDuncan Nonsense? So you know for sure he is what is prophesied, and your with all these words are not showing pride? We cannot have great popes without having bad popes. Pope Francis is a horrible communicator and horrible leader. That doesn’t make him an ape. Early on I got the impression that he is ignorant of what is going on in the US. That ignorance carries on to things like praising Father Martin. The difference is, Pope Francis doesn’t speak like Father Martin. Pope Francis specifically calls our homosexual acts and transgender actions as sinful and quotes the catechism whereas Father Martin will say, “well, what about an adulterer?” Facts lead to the theory being proven. The theory someone wants to be true doesn’t lead to facts. Pope Francis has condemned these sins. He has equated abortion with climate change. His same words are easily used by all sides that hate Catholicism against us. Early on the left and right were twisting his words to their own ends and ignoring other words he has said. Who out there knows he linked abortion with climate change? Be careful how you judge the holy father. Like it or not, he is who the holy spirit gave the keys to the kingdom when our previous pope resigned. There are advantages to having a bad pope. We then talk about these things. That is good. He isn’t speaking ex cathedra. He himself can error. Don’t make Pope Francis something he isn’t. That is for history and the church to decide, not us. Jesus is our king and unfortunately He made Pope Francis his steward. Regardless, we must hold a basic respect for him and trust God that it will all work out. The Bible says it, nothing is new under the sun.

[@jenniferraymond9766]

​​@@paulmualdeave5063ou're right, Francis is not an ape. That would be an insult to apes....he's a Jesuit!

[@beutner]

Well done Trent!

[@georgeluke6382]

28:00, Trent, I appreciated your debate with Gavin. Thank you. Relative to the objection on sola scriptura here, do you think this is a valid rebuttal? I'm learning a lot from you, even as a Reformed Christian. Thanks for your work. I think bringing your audience to pray for the Church and her officers, and advocating clear critiques, rather than caricatures, is great.

[@danvankouwenberg7234]

How can you watch James White and be like- "Oh yeah, this guy gets it!"?

[@stcolreplover]

Lol

[@davidcole333]

He is a very smarmy speaker. Difficult to listen to.

[@brutus896]

How can you be a Catholic and say, "Oh yeah, the Magisterium gets it?"

[@danvankouwenberg7234]

@@brutus896 the current members, or for the whole 2,000 years?

[@brutus896]

@danvankouwenberg7234 Both. Although it doesn't date back 2000 years

[@johnbartholomew2381]

Trent, I to appreciate your analysis and defense of the Faith; however - there is something obviously wrong in the Catholic Church and your explanation that the Pope is an old man not with the times and surrounded by bad advisers is a stretch.

[@tubaceous]

According to this brother we should not hold authority to any standards!!!😂😂😂

[@coffeehousedialogue5684]

Valid points. I'm more of a Reformed Christian (thinking about joining a local Anglican Diocese so a change in opinion will not leave me with a complete outcast), but I like to tune in to these types of channels do that I know what arguments to avoid.

[@MrAnomic]

I'm sorry, Trent, there's just no way to defend Francis' disposition on scripture and/or sacred tradition. He quotes the Saints and sacred scripture out of context much of the time to support bad interpretations of both that are not in alignment with either. What he says with his own mouth while unscripted, is not the result of bad advisors, it's a result of his own erroneous beliefs. He has a warped interpretation of Vatican 2 that is not in alignment with sacred tradition. In fact, a lot of what was promulgated after Vatican 2 was based on terrible interpretations of the council documents, with little discernible continuity with sacred tradition much of the time. The Church is a mess right now because of it. The lack of rigidity toward sacred tradition and traditional interpretations of scripture are at the root of the problem. The ability of discernment between right and wrong guided by scripture and tradition is what Francis calls "rigidity," from my point of view. Rigidity is simply the ability to discern that Christ has protected the Church from heresy and bad teachings through the sacred tradition that, Francis has said, has grown past its usefulness. I couldn't disagree more. Christ does not change, the Gospel does not change, right and wrong does not change, what it means to have faith in Christ does not change. Thus, tradition is just as valid today as it was in times past. My heart greaves for the faith, just as I think the Holy Spirit greaves every time a bad teaching is uttered and every time an apparent heresy is spoken, whether that be by a Priest like Father Martin or the Pope. I don't need to defend Francis for the things he says, and I don't need to explain away his words to protect my faith in Christ or the Church. He's just a terrible Pope. We've had them in the past and we will have them in the future, we don't need to defend them when we have bad Popes. I disagree that this puts my Catholic faith in jeopardy. In fact, it's quite the opposite to my view. It makes me appreciate scripture and sacred tradition, all the more. The only thing that would rock my faith is if Francis, or the Magisterium, was allowed by Christ to put out an infallible proclamation that was clearly, discernibly, in contradiction to scripture and/or established infallible sacred tradition. My faith tells me that it is impossible for them to do this, as Christ would not allow it. So if it did ever happen, barring any arguments of illegitimacy, there would be only one conclusion to draw. That's the only thing that would rock my belief in the position of the Catholic Church within the Body of Christ.

[@djo-dji6018]

Your attitude will not be dangerous only if you always try to interpret Pope Francis' words and actions honestly. I've noticed there is a great number of people who cry heresy any time the Pope speaks, even when he says something perfectly coherent with Catholic orthodoxy.

[@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc]

Why can’t some of those dogmatic Anathemas from Council of Trent by applied to Pope Francis ? Legitimate Question

[@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc]

There are 151 Anathemas, so ~

[@Michael-bk5nz]

Wait, did James White just advocate Donatism? “don't tell me a Mass offered by such people offering the sacrifice of Christ”, is he saying that heretics cannot offer valid sacraments?

[@Michael-bk5nz]

@ThoskaBrah he isn't saying “I James White don't believe the Mass is a sacrifice”, that would not be either relevant or worth saying, his point appears to be more subtle, that because the participants in this conference are allegedly heretics, there is no way Catholics can believe they can offer a valid Mass, but James White had yo know this is wrong and that we believe in ex opera operato

[@scottmaag7650]

Great job.

[@samuelcoppa874]

Hey Trent could you please do a rebuttal for Truth Unites’ video “The 5 Minute Case for Protestantism”

[@jackieo8693]

Pope Francis should never have supported Fr. Martin or any of his works. Pope Francis is making things harder for all of us, I'm afraid.

[@djo-dji6018]

Granted that Pope Francis hasn't been a good pope, isn't today a fantastic time to be Catholics? Faith is tested and thrives the most in times of hardship.

[@jackieo8693]

@@djo-dji6018 good point!

[@gabismom77]

THEN PLEASE EXPLAIN POPE FRANCIS SENDING BISHOPS TO HARASS BISHOP STRICKLAND AFTER HIS PARTICIPATION IN THE DODGERS PROTEST?

[@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc]

“There are Forces, right now, in The Vatican that DON’T Want The Gospel. They want to change it. They want to ignore it.” Bishop Joseph Strickland

[@aarongogl5386]

It’s amazing how hard it can be to distinguish between James White and Taylor Marshall; the comparison isn’t evidence, but it does suggest the need for a rebrand.

[@brandonmason3311]

Anyone know who the former rad Trad turned atheist he referenced is?

[@maksymiliankosowski2276]

Trent, in the near future, could you pleasu do a rebuttal video to Living Water's: "This ONE Thing Is Bringing So Many Catholics to Christ!"? God bless.

[@maksymiliankosowski2276]

@@getrit3007 "For ALL THE LAW is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (Galatian 5:14) As christians, we are obligated to fulfill Christ's law. The Catholic Church DOES NOT teach, that we are bound to follow the Law of Moses. You are making a strawman argument. Yes, the law held us accountable for our sins, and the law could not justify us: "If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema." (Council of Trent, session 6, canon 1) This is precise Catholic teaching! You have been gravely deceived and now you are continuing to spread lies about the Holy Faith. But grace doesn't in any way exclude the necessity of repenting of sin: "That the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8: 4-8; 12-13) Protestants say we are justified by faith alone. What does the Bible say? "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24) Protestantism is heresy and is indeed unbiblical.

[@MeanBeanComedy]

​@@getrit3007They don't. Your first question is false. The rest can be discarded.

[@Forester-]

​@@getrit3007 The 10 Commandments are the moral law, not the Jewish Ceremonial Law. Christ abolished the Ceremonial Law and in fact strengthened the moral law. You are gravely misreading Paul.

[@skylerstorm527]

God bless you Trent. The Lord is using you for such an important and necessary ministry. You think of things and make such important connections, you're so good at explaining. Thank you!

[@learnmasterit410]

Powerful Trent. You are the champion

[@mzubuki]

I recall a dream in which I began to watch a horror movie and lay witness to a frozen snow wasteland and a dog surrounded by 5 people began to listen to the five voices around him and dig a hole that ran super deep into a cavern with dark crystallite and the faint illumination around the party, and as a dream does I remember things progressing and then being one of the characters in the hole. I saw that there was a village down there where parasitic worms had taken control and ravaged the denizens of the cave I began to run because these fucking things were ferocious they might as well have been a kracken leaping from a sea to snatch your body. I began to take hold of a rope and climb out of the hole we dug having to dodge arrows. I arrived out the of the hole and sealed it a small lid and told myself I got to warn everybody about this shit. A small child began to climb out of the hole and I had the brief glimmer of joy that the child was going to make it and we could survive the ordeal, however, I took notice of my surroundings and saw that man who appeared to me the likeness of the popularized image of Jesus dead and zombified to a grotesque degree and to my horror the child had worms in his mouth and eyes as he did not survive. Then I awoke and remembered that I sometimes imagine myself as a child holding on to Jesus, a child of the same physical description I held, and that a Dog is a symbol of unbelief in the bible and that demons are mentioned in the bible as beings in an unseen realm just like you can't see COVID or gases with the naked eye and may require a special lens to peer into another layer of reality going on around you, and that demons are named as beings that spread misinformation as false ideas; thereby, trying to spark and encourage hate and wicked fear, and that not every voice or thought that pops into your head is yours. The idea of Jesus dead and the child being a symbol of being unlearned and unstable in joining and becoming the dog in his descent had no more a savior as Jesus was dead to him. I also remember a truck so who knows where we headed next. Worms are mentioned in the book of Isaiah Chapter 66 and book of Mark chapter 9 to be a kind that would never die as they eat away at flesh along with the everlasting and unquenchable fire. See. (Matthew 7:6, Mark 9:48, Isaiah 66:24, Hebrews 1:3, 12:2; 1 Peter 3:22, John 1: 1 and 14 Jesus is Gods message, words, expression of his ideas and likeness, John 3:16, Hebrews 3:6-12) I remember now that I have had hundreds of sleeps and some dream not at all, and sometimes my dreams have been the most buck-wild and random shit that who could have imagined the characters and the story. God chose that this would happen. The dream has neither occurred since nor before with the recipe for making it well in my brain before it occurred and while occurring it was not as though I expected the outcomes that in my mind I thought oh the Bible is happening. Testament means Covenant or Agreement. Old Testament means Old agreement only parts of the Old apply we know what which by adhering to the new. I believe some things we experience are warning shots and the remarkable inanity it takes to operate presumptuously, seeking no gratitude to either God or your fellow people as all sins post New Covenant require a little bit of uncaring selfishness either to God or your fellow people. I wonder who thinks being a good person is important, that we should all treat each other like family, or that I can set a stage before you get to the play. I also wonder how many of you are illiterate.

[@universalflamethrower6342]

If only we had been warned in some situation of this alphabet infiltration, we might have prepared ourselves for it

[@beebee9803]

We WERE warned --- read your Bible 👍

[@universalflamethrower6342]

@@beebee9803 I knew that, sarcasm doesn't translate well on the internet

[@cfG21]

Remember when james whites sister became catholic and james white made a bug eyed red faced video about it? That was hularious😅😅😅😂

[@iqgustavo]

🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 00:01 🎙️ Introduction to the topic of how Protestants criticize Pope Francis. 00:54 🌈 Pope Francis endorsed a conference by Father James Martin supporting LGBTQ Catholics. 03:13 🧐 Protestant responses by Jordan Cooper and James White on papal infallibility. 04:39 🔍 Comparison of Protestants' critique of papacy to atheists critiquing biblical inerrancy. 07:19 🤝 Argument that Pope's moral actions don't necessarily reflect theological beliefs. 10:05](kzbin.info/www/bejne/hH62poKelL-GjcU) 🧐 Rejection of the idea that bad prudential judgments invalidate the papacy. 11:59 📝 Examination of Pope Francis' letter to Father Martin and its non-doctrinal nature. 13:21 🌐 Critique of the conspiracy theory that Pope Francis secretly aims to change Church teaching. 14:45 💬 Discussion on Father Martin's approach to Church teaching on homosexuality. 17:06 📜 Comparison of Pope Honorius' situation with Pope Francis' letter to Father Martin. 18:33 ❓ Examination of the argument that awkward explanations negate divine guidance. 19:31 📚 Comparing qualifications for papal infallibility and biblical inerrancy. 20:26 📜 Distinction between what the Bible says and what it means, related to inerrancy. 21:16 📖 Comparison between objections to papal infallibility and biblical inerrancy. 21:39 📜 Protestant criticism of Pope Francis' fallibility compared to criticism of the Bible's inerrancy. Context matters in interpreting both. 22:36 📖 Pope's infallibility limited to specific assertions, unlike Bible's comprehensive inerrancy. Errors don't undermine papacy's divine origin. 23:30 ⚖️ Catholics can defend papal infallibility's scope, paralleling Protestants defending the Bible's scope against atheists' claims. 24:29 🌐 Practical benefits don't solely define theological truth. Both Catholicism and Protestantism can't solely rely on practicality. 26:22 🤝 Practical benefits aren't the core measure. Catholicism offers unity, authoritative teaching, and preservation of doctrine. 28:18 🏛️ Catholic authority fosters unity and consistent teachings on moral issues, providing guidance where the Bible is silent. 31:58 🔍 Criticizing Pope Francis harshly without charitable explanations risks losing faith; similar scrutiny applies to Bible difficulties. 33:58 🛶 Balancing faith with doubts requires charitable explanations, similar to Peter's response to Jesus' challenging teachings.

[@annakimborahpa]

1. For years I was a contributor to the Xavier Society For The Blind as part of my annual charitable tax deduction. 2. Then one year in their newsletter they wrote about transcribing the books of Fr. James Martin, S.J. into braille. 3. After that I ceased giving to them. 4. When they called for a solicitation, I told them I could no longer in good conscience support their society. Matthew 15:14: "Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. If a blind person leads a blind person, both will fall into a pit.”

[@user-fb2jb3gz1d]

So you're going to stop helping the blind because of Fr Martin? Yeah....... that's so christian like of you.

[@user-fb2jb3gz1d]

And you're taking that scripture out of context...... Just because the people are blind and you think Fr Martin is blind.........that scripture doesn't mean the blind leads actually blind people That scripture means that a leader who doesn't believe is leading others who do not believe. Nobody is actually blind. You need bible study classes

[@annakimborahpa]

@@user-fb2jb3gz1dThank you for your comment. I intended the verse in the following sense: 1. I consider Fr. James Martin's writings to be casuistry, i.e., carefully worded to mislead his readers about Catholic teaching and permeated by a fixation on lifestyles contrary to Catholic teaching. 2. One is known by the company they keep and Fr. Martin's recent appearance at Fordham this month with groups that want to change Catholic moral teaching like Dignity USA reveals his true colors. Or is Fr. Martin spiritually blind about Dignity USA's intentions? I think not. 2. For the Xavier Society For The Blind to translate Fr. James Martin's works into braille, I consider that to be an abuse of those with an unfortunate disability who the society is supposed to serve. 3. In this respect, I consider the society has betrayed their purpose, therefore the quoting of this verse is even more of a denunciation than what Jesus meant. 4. My comment was (A) specifically intended to underline the gravity of abusing those innocently less fortunate and (B) to provide one more example of how this Pride movement (that Fr. Martin wants to have formally celebrated in Catholic churches), based entirely on the demonic exaltation of sexual activity devoid of natural procreative content within marriage, has insidiously permeated our entire culture. 5. One thousand years ago the Catholic Church was in the throes of a similar cultural phenomenon. St. Peter Damian composed his Liber Gomorrhianus, c. 1051 AD to address these vices during the reforms of Pope Gregory VII. Damian was a Benedictine monk who became a bishop, and then a cardinal of the church. In 1823 he was declared a Doctor of the Catholic Church by Pope Leo XII. I recommend his Liber Gomorrhianus to anyone as an antidote to what is presently happening. Why, I even recommend that the Xavier Society For The Blind translate into braille St. Peter Damian's Liber Gomorrhianus! 6. As long as I am able, I plan to always be studying the Bible, as well receiving its wisdom in the Liturgy, God willing. 7. The peace of Christ be with you.

[@annakimborahpa]

@@user-fb2jb3gz1d Please see my reply to your other comment.

[@dallasbrat81]

Waiting for trent to explain why Catholic Church us declining in usa to only 20% of pop and non church is around 24% . imagine if he focuses on that

[@sheilazanella1294]

Yet it is booming in other countries. Do the research.

[@dallasbrat81]

@@sheilazanella1294 so it’s dying in the west ? Thats research

[@dallasbrat81]

@@sheilazanella1294 you mean Aferica . Middle East and parts of Asia yes Jesus is working without Catholic Church

[@sheilazanella1294]

Wrong. Wishful thinking on your part.

[@dallasbrat81]

@@sheilazanella1294 I will pray for you to be humble like Jesus.

[@1984SheepDog]

Why can't we just say that Francis appears to be making terrible choices and is a bad Pope? Yes they are imprudent decisions and they aren't really getting close to destroying Catholicism, but we're not doing anyone favors by limiting our critique to "PF imprudently did xyz". "Imprudent" doesn't convey the damage and confusion that he causes when he does this.

[@bumponalog5001]

I'm in your camp. We have no problem saying Popes were bad in the past. I'm calling a spade a spade. Pope Francis is the Pope, but he's doing a terrible job and is definitely responsible for damaging the faith of many. I pray for him that he finds guidance and clarity from whatever ails him.

[@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc]

Archbishop Viganò has been speaking/writing/reporting for years. Maybe he worthy of trust and shouldn’t be discounted.

[@someman7]

Trent are you taking notes from Lofton? :) Either way, you have my upvote just for that "Warning to Catholics"

[@mgr.qwerty9960]

I have a question. How may I send something, that I find worth of rebbuting? God Bless.

[@Fiat.Voluntas.Tua22]

Look at King David. He had major moral issues.

[@brutus896]

Yes, he did have issues, but the difference is that King David REPENTED!

[@alonsoACR]

@@brutus896 Every sinner has a future and every saint had a past. Repentance doesn't have an expiry date except bodily death itself, and last time I checked the Pope still breathes on Earth. Cheers.

[@brutus896]

@alonso19989 Yes, the pope is still breathing because Jesus is long-suffering that we come to repentance. But he Pope's future is not that bright. Repentance for him means to renounce catholicism, and he won't do that. He has received his reward.

[@alonsoACR]

@@brutus896 Why would leaving the One True Church save you? If anything that would damn him. God bless.

[@brutus896]

@@alonsoACR Because the "one true church" is not the true church. It is full of false doctrines and blasphemy against Jesus.

[@biggy279]

Hearing James White speak is enough of a proof of Trent’s arguments. His anger, lack of patience, evident lesser ability to formulate statements, and his lack of charity in conversation make it clear to me that I can hear the words of Trent and know them to be true.

[@alonsoACR]

@@Christ_saves938 Bingo. A preacher of scripture has to speak with gentleness and respect, yet without fear or feelings of intimidation (1 Peter 3:13-17). White looks like he'd hit someone.

[@Wilkins325]

Not trying to be hostile, but "the other guy yelled a lot" is not an argument.

[@biggy279]

@@Wilkins325 I’m not arguing for anything I’m just sharing a personal conviction based on the spirit of the discussion.

[@chriswest8389]

I've said, mostly to myself, j.w is in the wrong religion. Note his beard sans stache. Submission to God. Islam.

[@SeanusAurelius]

So is Gavin Ortlund a proof of Trent's falsehood? Surely the tone of a single pastor doesn't prove diddly about what an ecumenical council says.

[@huntsman528]

"God probably doesn't even pick the pope. The cardinals pick the pope" Wow! That's exactly what Protestants are saying. That makes a lot of sense.

[@chimetime394]

Does anyone know who the traditional Catholic who became an atheist is?

[@hervedavidh4117]

This video was sponsored by Jordan Cooper ! LOL

[@blakemoon123]

Hmm…I’m sorry Trent Horn. Love your work, but in this case I’m afraid James White may be right about the long-term change in sexual moral theology that Pope Francis seems to be encouraging. ‘Appointment is policy’, or whatever the expression is. Look at some of the Cardinals who Pope Francis has appointed to key positions in the ‘Synodal Way’ etc. Look at their positions on these issues. Consider the long term ( or perhaps not so long-term) ‘direction of travel’ they are moving in.

[@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc]

Writing is on the wall, so to speak. Willful Blindness is dangerous.

[@Vigula]

I wonder which Catholic traditionalist Trent is referring to near the end of this video?

[@EmberBright2077]

As someone who is out of the loop, who is he referring to?

[@leslielively5608]

What a book God gave to us humans uses human words that the common man understands mind blown.

[@stephenjohnson7915]

Sadly, trad Catholics are right there with them piling on.

[@joelpenley9791]

Maybe some traditional Catholics. But I would say there are far more Catholics like James White who are trying to change Church teaching. Everything Trent says can be applied to both groups but my sympathy is for the Traditional Catholics who are trying to preserve Gods word, not change it or twist it to their own destruction.

[@stephenjohnson7915]

@@joelpenley9791 I’m sure you meant James Martin. The problem with radical traditionalists is their erroneous, even (dare I say) modernist, ecclesiology, where they seem to believe they can accuse the pope of heresy and baldly state that the Holy See has defected from the faith. They always rejected Vatican II, but now they’re being more open about rejecting Vatican I, even if they don’t (yet) put it quite like that. So, I don’t accept that trads are trying to preserve anything except their own private judgement. Sorry, but that’s how I increasingly see it.

[@newglof9558]

I like James White and find his talks entertaining. But I am unconvinced of his anti-Catholicism

[@matthejna]

Are we going to get a rebuttal of the destiny/Lila rose debate?

[@janbasdegroot2186]

“Sola Scriptura cannot be true, because Protestants disagree with each other. This means the Bible is unclear and we need the pope.” That’s pretty much the only argument papists have against sola Scriptura and the clarity of Scripture. When papists disagree with their interpretations of the pope, disagree whether a council is oecumenical, disagree with with their interpretations of councils and official teachings, even at the highest levels, that argument clearly doesn’t work. People have different interpretations of the Bible because of the people. People have different interpretations of the the pope and Roman-Catholic teachings because they are obviously contradictory and unclear. And how necessary are those ex cathedra declarations of the pope if there have only been two ex cathedra declarations ever? Roman-Catholics should stop saying the pope is necessary, since it clearly doesn’t solve the problems that are made up by Roman-Catholic apologists. They just shift the problem and make it worse. Also: they are arguing like atheists. But that makes sense, since the skepticism of the enlightenment (started by Descartes) originated in Jesuit skepticism against humans being able to know and understand stuff, because that was valuable propaganda against the reformers. And the reason we are focusing on the practical benefits of the pope, is because the papist apologists shifted the discussion that way. It is pretty impossible to make an argument for the pope from divine authority, without assuming it is necessary. You cannot go from “Jesus builds His Church on Peter” (which is already wrong) to “the cardinals shall always elect a guy in Rome who is the infallible gatekeeper and head of the Church”. The last part greatly described the goal of the Jesuit shenanigans. It comes down to “you actually don’t know the Bible is God’s Word and you don’t know anything about God, despite you think you do. If you don’t believe this on the basis of someone’s authority, you cannot reasonably believe it at all. If you are skeptic that the pope has divine authority, you should also be skeptic that the Divine actually has authority and that the Divine exists at all.” Some people did the latter and became deist or atheist. Then the Protestants are blamed for this papist creation.

[@jerome2642]

Actually, that is NOT the main reason why the Catholic Church opposes Sola scriptura The main reason is the fact that the Bible itself never said that Christians should adhere to ONLY what is explicitly written in the Bible.

[@janbasdegroot2186]

@@jerome2642 sola Scriptura does not need to be in the Bible in order for it to be true. If there is a good reason to believe the Bible is infallible and something other than the Bible contradicts the Bible, you know that the other thing cannot be infallible. But sola Scriptura is biblical. Ephesians 2:19-20 claims that the Church is built upon apostles and prophets, with Christ Himself as the cornerstone. Therefore, the fundament of the Protestant Church is indeed the apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ as cornerstone. Only if they would add another fundament themselves, we should add that fundament as well. And Scripture also directly says Scripture is able to make us wise for salvation (through faith in Jesus Christ); Scripture should be used for rebuking and correcting; with Scripture we are equipped by God, completely equipped for every good work; and the Word of God is clear. With that we have every doctrine necessary for sola Scriptura. The Protestant faith is based only on that which is revealed by God. The Roman and eastern Church claim that the Church itself is the fundament who gave authority to the preaching of the apostles. That directly contradicts the Bible.

[@jerome2642]

@@janbasdegroot2186 Well, admitting that Sola scriptura is NOT in the Bible is essentially the same thing as admitting that Sola scriptura is UNBIBLICAL (Protestants often use the word "unbiblical" to describe any teaching or practice that is NOT written in the Bible) Secondly, Ephesians 2:20 doesn't support Sola scriptura, neither does it say that the church should stick to ONLY what is written in scripture. Yes, it says that the church is built on CHRIST; but it doesn't say that the church is built on SCRIPTURE. It appears you are interpreting the phrase "built upon Christ" to mean the same thing as "adhering to the teachings of Christ". Well, even if it that was the correct interpretation, it still doesn't justify the principle of following ONLY what is written in the Bible because the Bible doesn't contain everything that Jesus taught. (John 21:25) Thirdly, 2 Timothy 3:15 did say that the study of the scriptures is able to give us wisdom; but that is NOT the same thing as saying that the scriptures are the ONLY source of wisdom. Wisdom is a gift that comes FROM GOD (James 1:5), and the scriptures are ONE of the ways by which God gives wisdom but it is not the ONLY way. We know this because great men of faith like Abraham and Noah all had the gift of wisdom even though they NEVER read the scriptures (because the scriptures had NOT YET been written during their lifetime.) Indeed, there is no doubt that the man of God is INCOMPLETE without the scriptures (which is why Paul says that the man of God needs the scriptures in order to be COMPLETE for the performance of every good work - 2 Timothy 3:17). But to say that I need to have something in order to be COMPLETE is not the same thing as saying that it is the ONLY thing that I need to have. This is obvious even from common sense. For instance, a car needs an engine in order to be COMPLETE (because a car without an engine is incomplete, even if it has all the other parts of a car); but obviously this doesn't mean that a car needs ONLY an engine to function properly, because it also needs other important parts eg tyres, petrol, brake pads, etc

[@janbasdegroot2186]

@@jerome2642 Protestantism doesn’t deny that truth can be found outside of the Bible. That means that we can derive knowledge, like sola Scriptura, outside of the Bible. We don’t deny general revelation. Protestantism tells us that every truth that is necessary for salvation and a holy life is found in the Bible, just like 2 Timothy 3:15-17 tells us. Protestantism tells us that the Bible is the only infallible authority. We know the Bible is an infallible authority, because it is the Word of God and God is infallible and authoritative. Unless God declares anything else is infallible and authoritative, we can only assume this to be true for the Bible. Every other statement should be tested, unless we can know it is the Word of God. It is pretty simple: we don’t assume anything to be infallible unless God tells us so. We know God is infallible by His nature and we don’t know that from anyone or anything else. We can know for sure that the pope, the councils and the Church are indeed fallible, since they have made statements that contradict the Word of God. Ephesians 2:20 says that the Church should be built upon the teachings of Christ through His prophets and apostles. So unless something is taught by the prophets and the apostles (who wrote their teachings down in Scripture), it is not fundamental for the Church. Something like the resurrection of Mary or the perpetual virginity of Mary can therefore not be a fundamental doctrine of the Church. The Roman-Catholic gospel is contrary to the teachings of Christ, so that undermines the fundament upon which the Church should be built. I believe Mary was a virgin for her whole life, but just because it is historically probable, not because we can possibly know whether or not the apostles taught it. The Bible is the only thing from which we can know for certain that the apostles and prophets taught it, since it was written by the apostles and prophets themselves. We cannot possibly verify whether or not the apostles taught all the extra doctrines of the Roman-Catholic Church, since they didn’t write them down. The best thing we have is that Ben said that Bob said that Jesus said it, but we don’t know if we can trust Ben and Bob. In most cases, there isn’t even a clear chain of witnesses going back to the apostles for papist doctrines. Therefore we should first have a reason to believe the pope is infallible just like God, before we can trust that what he says must necessarily be true. We know the Bible doesn’t contain every single thing Jesus ever did, but the only infallible summary we have is the Bible. If we can know for certain some extrabiblical action or teaching of Jesus, the apostles or the prophets, it is of course just as authoritative as the Bible. Protestantism doesn’t state that the Scriptures are the only source of wisdom. It states that it is the only infallible source of wisdom that is useful for the Church today. If God would speak to us directly like He did to the prophets, of course it would be just as authoritative as the Scriptures. Even if the prophets and apostles would speak to us directly it would be just as authoritative. But the only way in which the prophets and apostles together with God directly speak to us, is in the Scriptures. That is because there are no apostles and prophets today anymore. Paul doesn’t only say we NEED the Scriptures to be complete for good works, but that we MAY be complete for good works by the Scriptures. Paul doesn’t only say that we NEED the Scriptures to make us wise unto salvation, but that the Scriptures are ABLE to make us wise unto salvation. He doesn’t qualify those statement by adding extra sources we need. The Scriptures are able to make us wise unto salvation, something the Roman-Catholic Church denies by rejecting sola Scriptura and by adding extrabiblical doctrines as necessary beliefs. If I would say that your car may be thoroughly equipped for driving by installing an engine, wouldn’t you feel scammed if you found out the car is still not thoroughly equipped for driving after you paid me to instal the engine? Am I not a scammer if I would say you actually also need to add some other missing parts? Same thing if I would say that by adding a new engine to your car, your car would be able to drive, without qualifying you actually need other new components as well.

[@jerome2642]

@@janbasdegroot2186 once again, you are not being accurate in your scriptural references. 2 Timothy 3:15 did NOT say that EVERY truth necessary for salvation is found IN scripture. It says that WISDOM that leads to salvation can be found IN scripture. What is this "Wisdom" ? What is that scripture tells us to do in order to be saved ? Does scripture tell us that we can be saved by focusing on ONLY the teachings IN scripture and ignoring every other teaching that is NOT found in scripture ? There is nothing about 2 Timothy 3:15 - 17 that suggests Sola scriptura. For instance, Paul said that "ALL scripture is inspired by God" and not "ONLY scripture is inspired by God". Furthermore, he said that scripture is PROFITABLE (or USEFUL) for teaching and correcting error; he didn't say that scripture is SUFFICIENT for teaching and correcting error. The word "sufficient" means "the only thing that is needed". This means that the work of teaching and correcting error can actually take place WITHOUT the Bible. This is because Jesus passed on His teachings to His Apostles WITHOUT writing any of them in a book (He simply SPOKE to them and they LISTENED) . Likewise, in the early days of the church, the Apostles were able to TEACH others the teachings of Christ WITHOUT making use of any "New testament books" as a source of reference (for instance, Acts 2:42 says that shortly after Pentecost day the early Christians devoted themselves to the TEACHINGS of the Apostles, even though we know that NONE of the books of the New testament had been written at that time). Eventually, over time, the Apostles WROTE down their teachings in the books/epistles of the New testament but they did NOT write down EVERYTHING that they taught; they continued to make use of WORD OF MOUTH or ORAL tradition as a means of passing on some of their teachings (see 2 John verse 12 and 3 John verse 12 and 2 Thessalonians 2:15). Why did they do this ? Because they were the leaders of the early Church and they knew that the hierarchy/leadership of the CHURCH of Christ has the primary responsibility of TEACHING the word of God to all members of the church; they didn't agree with the point of view that the primary responsibility of the church was to simply WRITE down ALL its teachings in a book (Bible) and give it to christians to read it for themselves and stop listening to what the hierarchy of the church has to say. Hence, they didn't write down ALL their teachings in the books of the Bible. Besides, Jesus said to them: "TEACH them everything I have commanded you" (Matthew 28:20); He didn't say to them: "WRITE DOWN everything I have commanded you" And so the Apostles themselves realized that the work of TEACHING and PASSING ON the word of God from one generation of christians to the next is the primary responsibility of the CHURCH (i.e its leadership/ hierarchy), not the BIBLE. The Bible is simply ONE of the means by which the church fulfills this responsibility. Unfortunately, over time, Protestants began to say: "We have the Bible in our hands to read for ourselves; we believe that it contains EVERYTHING that was taught by Jesus and the Apostles, and so we DO NOT care about listening to anything that is being taught by any leader of the church" Once again, you have referenced Ephesians 2:20 wrongly because it DID NOT say that the church is built upon the TEACHINGS of Christ and the Apostles; Paul's exact words were "built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone" (Ephesians 2:20). It is obvious that Paul is describing the STRUCTURE of the church, he is NOT telling us about a book (i.e Bible) that would be the ONLY source of teachings for Christians. Like I said, even if you believe that Ephesians 2:20 is telling us to adhere to ONLY the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Apostles, it still doesn't mean the same thing as adhering to ONLY what is written in the Bible because the Bible isn't the ONLY place where the teachings of Christ and Apostles can be found.

[@fighterxaos1]

Jordan Cooper and James White's fans are something else. They're more hostile than some atheists for not holding the exact same theology they do. So, as a Protestant I actually thank you for responding to them.

[@samueljennings4809]

I’ve heard that about James White, but Jordan Cooper?

[@fighterxaos1]

@@samueljennings4809 well, it’s more towards Leighton Flowers regarding Cooper. But yeah, as for White I just said “Calvinists tend to use semi-Pelagian for non Calvinists a lot” and next thing I know I’m being called a clown shoes by one of his fans. I didn’t even respond to them.

[@chemnitzfan654]

​@fighterxaos1 to be fair to us Dr. Cooper fans, Flowers has been lying about Lutherans and what we believe for a long time.

[@Dilley_G45]

​@@samueljennings4809well it's simply not true. Dr. Cooper is a confessional Lutheran and unlike White a real Theologian, Studied Theology and went to Seminary. I'm a regular viewer on Dr. Cooper's youtube channel and it is usually very civilized there. There is no mindless bashing. Putting those two in the same category is plain wrong. Even as a non-Lutheran there are many insights on Cooper's channel e.g. defending infant baptism, liturgical service, opposing charismatic heresies etc.

[@fighterofthenightman1057]

@@Dilley_G45 Yeah, any Catholic lumping a confessional/historical Protestant (Lutheran) like Dr. Cooper in with your run-of-the-mill, low church, contemporary American Evangelical is being disingenuous at best, ignorant at worst.

[@TheThreatenedSwan]

Why are those verses in the Bible that say obey your leaders in the Church, yet they will also bear a greater culpability in that capacity of leadership if they mislead you? If the answer is just me and my Bible and I can just pack up and go to whatever church I want like James White would believe, why are those verses even in there? Usually these low rent potshots protestant commenters give undermine not only the Bible, how many did Peter lead away through his actions, but their own beliefs if they actually took the arguments at face value and weren't just using them ostensibly. But no, they play a semantic game where you should not apply this same strictness to protestant leaders and sources of authority/tradition. The signal is that this applies to Catholicism only when obviously it doesn't

[@sk00k]

Prot: If it's divinely inspired you shouldn't have to awkwardly explain it. Atheist: What about Genesis 19? Catholic: Hey, I didn't say that, he did.

[@user-gs4oi1fm4l]

Literally just heard a talk explaining Docetism and just heard it from James White in that clip lol

[@1517the_year]

Trent saying the pope is "an 85 year old with bad advisors" just doesn't give me much faith in that papal office. Like are we going to try and justify bad leadership within the church? (Not saying Trent is) Although I agree that I don't believe that Pope Francis was affirming LGBT in his letter, I believe that poor leadership is deserving of criticism and that we should believe that's years and years of papal failure is in fact a stumbling block to belief in the Catholic tradition.

[@tafazzi-on-discord]

It's the bishop's responsibility to uphold orthodoxy in their diocese, you're looking at things in the wrong light. Has this pope prevented or in some other way made harder the job of the US bishops to do their work properly? No. He's the bishop of Rome, and as a roman I see the papal office to be very very careful in evaluating what goes on here. Yes, he alse has to offer guidance to the church as a whole, and he IS doing that by the tremendous and extraordinary efforts in providing for the flock in poor and war torn areas of the World, and in deescalating the Ukrain war.

[@TheCounselofTrent]

That's fair and I say in the video he can be criticized for allowing himself to be in such a situation

[@2righthands816]

You're free to believe Francis is a bad pope. We've had terrible popes in the past, we will have more in the future. But just because one agrees that the pope is the head of the Church it doesn't mean he or she justifies bad leadership.

[@FirstLast-po8oz]

We've had bad leadership in the Church since the beginning and by the grace of the Holy Spirit the Church has survived while under serious trials. It will continue to do so. This is the Pope that God wants us to have right now, it's in God's providence. Perhaps it would be good to investigate the stuff he is doing like his works on Mercy and relationship building with the Orthodox instead of focusing on his perceived failures. We either trust the promises of God or not.

[@lalagordo]

@@TheCounselofTrentyes and it’s not the only stumbling block to conversion. The biggest I think in the end is conviction of sin.