Why Seiko Watches Have Gotten So Expensive

[@dustinthewind09]

I think it's really great Mark is taking this time to be honest with us consumers. Educating us is not his responsibility, yet he cares enough to do so. Thank you, good sir.

[@bartfloyd4538]

Yes he’s Awesome to us his dear customers .❤

[@PETERJOHN101]

Please. Mark is a seller, he is trying to maintain market presence in the face of increasing competition. It's not story time. By the way, I have been a customer of his since his early days. I am not a fan of his website offerings due to a high percentage of perpetually unavailable models. A more helpful model for showing inventory / availability is needed.

[@ErikL727]

Here's my problem: Every time I see a Seiko I really like, it's 1k or more. That's just a lot of scratch for a Seiko, when so many other options start to avail at that price point. Last time I went through that exercise, I wound up buying a Doxa 600T for right around 1k. Seemed to me to be a much better move.

[@eyeheartsushi2212]

That is what’s happening with me as well.

[@jimmymcclure4549]

It is just capitalism., or unregulated capitalism. The more the wealth of the country is in fewer hands the less the many hands have to pay for things. So compianes like the micro brands pop up to cater to the masses of people who fall out of the ability or willingness to pay the amount of money that fewer and fewer people can affords to pay for something like a watch. The "luxury" watch prices are getting higher because they are making less of them because the number of people who can afford them are going down. As the smaller businesses run by the folks who are claiming their toilet paper as a business tax deduction and their cars, computers , watches etc. begin to be butchered by the oligarchs thiose prices will go higher because it is the smaller than they think they are people who are buying the things. and they are getting eaten alive by the day by the predators at the top.

[@lamentate07]

The Presages over 1k are often very nice, especially the Craftmanship Series. Where are you going to get a real lacquer dial with that kind of finishing for 1500-1700 USD? If those watches were Swiss, they would be thousands more.

[@WordMadeFlesh777]

Yup and the bracelets are trash. Great watch cases but…just junk bracelets.

[@BluGiant14]

@@jimmymcclure4549 fantastic argument and one that I definitely agree with

[@toddg4385]

Your videos are informative. I really appreciate your transparency! Thanks again. Stay cool!

[@islandwatch]

Trying to, thank you.

[@TheChaz5504]

The fact you would do this video, perhaps even undermining your own brand a bit, really speaks to your integrity. Great points. In general, many people do not embrace the reality of change and are stuck like a broken record on the way things were back in the day- and deny the completely logical reasons why they are different and refuse to adapt. Sad reality of our species.

[@sinesaii]

I do think many people care a lot about signaling to others, and for them, they only want a watch to display wealth, not to enjoy. These people cannot buy a $4k Seiko. The same folks call Tudor “the poor man’s Rolex” and let everyone who ever meets them know that they have a Rolex and their pen is Mont Blanc (not a great pen maker, but good for showing off) and they will bore you with what stupid luxury car they own. I worked with a clown like that once. He was almost a walking stereotype (short, insecure, showy). He would never stop complaining about an NYC partner who bought a house in Harlem. It was a beautiful home, but this guy had the Pakistani gynecologist McMansion in the suburbs with tiny, sad trees and a pathetic lawn, but always the same Mercedes out front. Those guys go on Rolex waiting lists and do not understand why independent brands exist or why every clothing brand does not have garish labels.

[@marcob.7801]

The ONLY sad reality my friend is that MOST if not ALL manufdcturers are GREEDY bastardos! I'm not against making a honest buck,...operative being HONEST! But all this GREED has made me a smarter (and far more patient) consumer to the point that if I can't get a good deal, I DON'T BUY!

[@gtd772]

On a strict dollar for dollar basis I can appreciate that a Seiko watch purchased today has remained relatively in line with prior pricing. However, I think Seiko's reputation has suffered through their being slow to adapt to the expectations of buyers, particularly when those buyers compared what Seiko is offering against any number of brands/microbrands. Sapphire crystals and ceramic bezels became almost standard several years ago, as did easily sizable and adjustable bracelets. Meanwhile, Seiko plodded along with Hardlex, wandering bezels with aluminum inserts, and downright miserable bracelets (I've replaced the bracelet on every Seiko I've ever owned). Moreover, Seiko's movements seem barely regulated -- the only mechanical watches I've bought which are less accurate out of the box are Vostok watches, though at a much lower price point. Microbrands, sometimes utilizing the very same Seiko movements, managed to ship a product which was superior in many ways to a factory Seiko, especially in the rather important category of timekeeping. I guess my basic point (and I do have one) is that the perception of Seiko as being overpriced really has less to do with the final retail cost than it does with the buyer's notion of value for money spent. And while Seiko used to score highly on the value scale, it now lags in comparison to any number of competitors ... Islander, to provide one pertinent example.

[@islandwatch]

Thanks for the great comment!

[@NazidKimmie]

This ^^^ Its not about the price you are willing to pay - it's the perception (real or imagined) of the actual value for money - if Microbrands are supplying the same movements with Sapphire glass, good quality on the fly adjustable bracelets etc... at a lower price point than say Seiko 5's that don't have these base features... yeah I would tend to think that in terms of value for money - they are NOT value prospect they once were... They should up their movements/bracelets/glass then I think might be willing to pay extra for the kudos of owning an iconic brand.. Oh I'm not a Seiko basher, I own two and love them!

[@gritsteel4559]

@@NazidKimmie I agree ... not having sapphire glass alone is a dealbreaker for me. of course, it's not just Seiko, but Citizen and Orient too (thanks to Orient for their Kamasu and Mako 3 having sapphire). Anyway, I don't care much now about Seiko having high prices, there are so many more affordable alternatives with standard sapphire, and using Seiko movements anyway lol.

[@khairulhelmihashim2510]

the pricing structure is purposely designed to make those with financial means and horological literacy skip the lower tier models, while unsuspecting average buyers paid more for low spec models to gain admission into the esteemed brand.

[@nspr9721]

Mate you've nailed it.I am the original Seikophile, adored their wristpieces and turned on to the amazing word of mechanical watches through the House of Seiko. However sapphire glass, ceramic bezel inserts all fully lumed (and overall build quality to an equal or higher quality at a much lower price) have become standard now. Often this is achieved using the same Seiko movements. Many of the Steeldive, Addiesdive, San Martin, Ix & Dao, Rdunae etc items are superbly well done or with very minor design compromises to hit the cost limits. Seiko now seems to be charging way too much for way t little and not taking its fan base seriously any more.

[@etebol]

Mark your point is very valid. Inflation justifies somewhat the price increases. But salaries and hourly pay have not kept up with inflation, so people have also a valid point in complaining about prices.

[@islandwatch]

In the USA, sure, I get that.

[@senotriusneo6354]

Not just USA. Most economies are affected by this phenomenon. But, still, seiko is similar to what sony does- overpricing themselves out of the market. Most legacy Japanese brands are notorious for this;they haven't moved on.

[@zakofrx]

​@@senotriusneo6354yes.. Most Western or even other 1st world countries deal with the actions of the US...

[@jmand63]

Totally true.

[@brd4869]

If an item coming from brand 1 gives me 5 things while brand 2 gives me the same 5 things PLUS 2 or more for less, isn’t brand 1 overpricing? This is kind of like Toyota. Gives you an “updated” unit but in reality, is actually 20 years old underneath, and charges you a 202X rate. I’m sorry Mark, but if other brands can provide us with better offerings, with Seiko outsourcing most of their stuff anyway, why can’t they do the same?

[@bogrot69]

Makes a lot f sense. From now on, when I hear someone mention it, I'll let them know how much better off they are buying an Islander! 😁

[@islandwatch]

Hahahaha

[@lammyjammer6670]

You forgot to mention that part of the deal of getting watches via gray market is the fact that you do not get the manufacturer warranty at that price either. A lot of people aren't aware of that.

[@islandwatch]

Yes, quite true.

[@FT4Freedom]

Good point. But I wouldn't have Seiko servicing my Seiko's anyway. I can get much better servicing from an independent watch person.

[@lammyjammer6670]

@@FT4Freedom This applies to all companies though. So, yeah, maybe you don't trust Seiko but a lot of people looking for the best price may not be aware that they only get that warranty honored through a proper AD. Depending on the store their own coverage may be hit or miss as well.

[@renehernandez6905]

@@FT4Freedomtrue!! Had to send king seiko for one issue.seiko broke something else,of it went again;you’d think they’d check their work.

[@TheTimLara]

Love these industry analysis content videos. The arguments you presented can basically be rolled up to "don't hate the player, hate the game" imo. Markets gonna market. 🤷‍♂️

[@SteveDonev]

But by cracking down on the gray market seiko is making sure that markets can’t market and artificially pumping up the price. The game is fine, its the player thats trying to squeeze more money out of consumers than what the market would normally call for

[@brianmccord7387]

@@SteveDonev exactly. When Rolex bought Bucherer everyone was like oh look at them continuing to monopolize the market. But when Seiko actively seeks out and strangles ghost buyers, it’s OK?

[@SteveDonev]

@@brianmccord7387 💯

[@TheTimLara]

@@SteveDonev I'm not sure I understand what people consider gray market dealers I guess..? I still seem to have no problem finding "NIB" Seikos on eBay or C24, etc, often for a decent discount, but I generally just choose to support my ADs anyway because I can also get decent discounts there and then get full warranty coverage which is worth it to me. I know some people enjoy the "hunt" of finding deals though so I understand that's part of it if sources you used to find have dried up.

[@islandwatch]

Thanks so much.

[@4evalost948]

Marc as always you explanations are on point you make it so digestible to understand.

[@dainiu]

Great points. I say Seiko needs to do a few things 1. Create their own market for non-moving stock. Every fashion brand has outlet stores, periodic "sales" etc. 2. Create layers of accuracy for their movements. I don't think people realize that the accuracy of a $1000 Seiko is way higher than a $300 Seiko for SAME "NH" or "CR" numbered movement! 3. On the accuracy theme again, but long-term accuracy. Swiss movements tend to be more accurate out-of-the-box but, as years pass, their accuracy falls. Swiss movements have tighter tolerances, so it's natural. A ten year old $800 Tissot will have LOWER accuracy than a ten year old $800 Seiko. Of course, you can always service a watch, but that cost adds up.

[@prwoland3750]

Excellent thanks! And interestingly Seiko and Citizen do have outlets but only in Japan (within dedicated malls). I’m a great fan of Japan and have been there 10 times. It’s not unusual to find a 40% discount especially on high end pieces. Got 50% on a The Citizen this year, and 30%/40% on high end 8L powered Seiko divers, especially the expensive limited editions or JDM. Worth a trip especially now when 1$ is almost 160 ¥

[@islandwatch]

To your first point, the Grey and Manufacturer are necessary, but unlikely, partners.

[@fw1421]

All watches need to have periodic servicing,even quartz movements. If you watch the many watch repair/restoration videos on KZbin you will see how lubricants degrade over time. They all need to be serviced,cost effective or not. I had chucked my ‘76 6105 in my jewelry drawer in the ‘90’s and forgot about it. I’m watching KZbin and the algorithm shoots me a Wristwatch Revival video and he’s taking apart an old Seiko dive watch. I’m staring at it and ,that looks like the one I bought when I was in the USAF. I went rummaging around in my drawers and found my old Seiko. Dam if it wasn’t the same one! I shook it a bit and she started running. I watched the rest of the video and looked it up on Google and wow,they are worth upwards of $2000! I had worn that watch for 15 years every day. The crystal was so scratched you could hardly see through it. At that point I started looking for someplace to get it serviced. I ended up sending it to Seiko in New Jersey. They received it and said they could service it but couldn’t replace the crystal! Dam,that’s the big thing I wanted done so I had them send it back. I searched for a OEM crystal and found one in Israel for $100,a bit pricy but I wanted my watch repaired. I ended up getting it serviced by a company in California. I made the decision to have the watch just repaired rather than restored to like new condition and I like the patina it has,faded bezel and a few dings. It’s all wear that I put on it. I don’t wear it every day,I have my Apple Watch Ultra for that but I do wear it often. I don’t regret spending the money because it has sentimental value to me.

[@kart182]

I don’t think Seiko is going to make sales by saying “the accuracy sucks now, but in 10 years without a service, it’s going to suck less than the other guy!”

[@stevemc75]

Stop talking.

[@michaelpowers5506]

I purchased your Brookdale black on a jubilee during the Father's Day sale. It is a great value and I have worn it everyday since. Keep up the good work.

[@alcozar5905]

Good video, thanks Mark!

[@islandwatch]

You are welcome. thanks for watching.

[@d3xmeister]

How about Sinn prices , or Oris prices ? How much did a Sinn 104 cost 6-7 years ago ? I bet it’s almost double now

[@islandwatch]

For sure

[@Bob_Smith19]

Sinn stopped being a good deal pre COVID. They have no competition in the US. There is only one place to purchase from.

[@zunedog31]

Our money isn't worth anywhere near what it was before covid stimulous.

[@teleguy5699]

People complained when the Hamilton field watch went up in price right around the pandemic. I still bought it. In ten years that price will sound cheap. We need to base value against real time, instead of nostalgia.

[@FT4Freedom]

Thanks Mark. Love you man. 🎉 You're spot on this. I was an original Seikophile who grew up in the gray market. Nowadays it's more difficult to put money on a Seiko.

[@LikelyProcrastinating]

I’m with you here. I think with the grey market shrinking there will be less wrists sporting seiko. I have three, one I never wear and should sell but when I see a seiko and it’s price I pass and think, I’ll hold out for a GS or other. Buy what speaks to you.

[@islandwatch]

Thanks!

[@tttm99]

I feel like you're perhaps a frustrated economics or business lecturer who happens to run a good line in selling watches. 😂 But seriously, listening to someone who has clearly worked hard, knows what they're talking about, and stayed honest in this day and age is a rare treat indeed. Every video you release is like a reminder as to why I subscribed. 👍

[@nickkincanon4582]

Seiko is still my favorite major brand. I own a bunch of them across all price points. I know folks have had QA issues, but not me. Full vertical integration with massive variety at or under $1,000 is stlll a good deal to me. I’ve had no complaints with 4R and 6R movements. I know that micros sell for less with NH movements (I own them) but I like the Seiko designs. To each their own.

[@silajeep1]

Yes, I have several Seikos, all mechanical, they have their shortcomings that we all know about, but I really like their dial designs which is why I choose Seiko over Casio, citizen for example.

[@kart182]

Citizen does everything seiko does but better

[@nickkincanon4582]

@@silajeep1 I agree with that. I know that Citizen is quality, but I just haven’t found a design to my liking yet. Just a personal style thing. 😀

[@jasperjenkins3789]

@@kart182you’re absolutely right! Citizen has always been an amazing brand but very underrated. In the last few years they have really stepped it up as far as designs, quality has always been there but now I feel like they are listening to what people want. I was able pick up a Promaster diver automatic “Fujitsubo” for an absolute steal and the quality is unreal. Finishing is perfect, everything lines up, not a spec of dust on the dial unlike some Seikos’ and Hamilton I own, and the accuracy is on par with a chronometer!

[@islandwatch]

Thanks so much! I agree with you.

[@javierortiz70]

Good video, Marc. Good explanation. I do think one of the reasons for the perception of Seikos being overpriced these days is because wage growth for many people has not kept up with inflation.

[@islandwatch]

Thanks!

[@TheNinjaMarmot]

I like my Citzens. Eco drive beats anything else out there. All reliable and keeps charge for a long time.

[@islandwatch]

Citizen is one I didn't touch for a comparison reason.

[@Silver-st2zq]

Same here 👍

[@spacetoilet]

Same! I have the orange and blue promaster and I love it.

[@spacetoilet]

Also, I LOVE my seiko quartz titanium watch, it over time has me liking quartz watches more than autos just because I prioritize thinness above most things in a watch. That Seiko is incredibly comfortable and looks amazing.

[@framptonhendrix530]

I have 4 Citizen watches the only Automatic is the Tsuyosa, Citizen makes nice & durable Watches ✌️🙏

[@aashutosh9285]

Marc is so real for this. Love this guy and his honesty!!!!

[@catlike1]

Totally agree with all 3 points re the crackdown on the grey market, inflation, and the fact that micro-brands eliminate the middleman whereas Seiko need to provide their ADs with profit margin and to support sales and service infrastructure. Sure, I wish they would improve their bracelets and use sapphire crystals more, but I still love their dial designs which continue to be hard to beat. And of course they and Citizen/Miyota help make the microbrand ecosystem possible with their movements.

[@islandwatch]

Thank you!

[@arvindkalipersad161]

Marc, thank you for putting this video out, not only as a Seiko AD, but a microbrand owner. An aunbiased and factual perspective, which seems to be lacking these days. I'd like to add another comparison, if I may. The Seiko SKX173/175 USDM variants ran for (IIRC from my price tag) 425-450 USD. Their true replacement, the Seiko Turtle (777/779 etc.) MSRP's for 495. So that's a 45 USD price bump, which is entirely more than reasonable for inflation and other factors. To me, "enthusiasts" assumed that sub-100 Seiko 5 pricing was set by Seiko themselves, when in fact it was set due to deep discounts through the grey market! Seiko never priced any Seiko 5's at sub-160 USD. Lastly, to me, alot of other "youtubers" have overblown a non-existent issue about pricing, when in fact, they are comparing discounted 20 yr old grey market pricing to current day! The community seems to have just regurgitated that, without anyone really digging into the facts. It begs the question then - how biased are some of those "other youtubers", who may or may not benefit from price increase claims?

[@AverageBros]

Thank you Marc, for this thoughtful, fair, and balanced take. Unfortunately, so many folks on YT have been regurgitating the, "Seiko has lost its way" narrative to cash in on the vocal minority of the market who spend all day clicking to complain about what they dislike vs. spending time supporting what they do like. I would add one other multiplying factor to note, JDM watches and the JPY to USD exchange rate. This disparity has skewed the market perception on top of the Grey Market and Inflation over the years as well, especially prominent for JDM only watches like the SARB which are also 15-20yrs old at this point, which are also some of the most popular enthusiast models, which molded many collectors' image of what Seiko's bang-per-buck value proposition was, while only being based on a small handful of niche models that were available so dramatically below MSRP and MAP.

[@islandwatch]

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!!!

[@AnitaSpankyBB]

Nice analysis and breakdown 👍👍👍

[@vbertrand]

One point that has been overlooked is : over time, economies of scale should push the price of a product downward as development costs are amortized. This COULD apply to Seiko.

[@jaad9848]

The vast majority of watch manufacturers with big names have reached the apex of their economies of scales years ago especially with the release of the apple watch eating into sales.

[@vaclav_fejt]

This is actually an eye opener. Not the inflation, I am aware of that, but the grey market situation. There's one thing left to be answered: Why can't Seiko adjust the 6R35 movements better? The positional variance is maddening. I could deal with bad isochronism, it's not a Kenissi, but the positions...

[@josepauloneuparthvieirafer4449]

Hey Marc, thanks for your videos. I appreciate your work very much, either solo either with TGV. Keep going. Best Regards

[@whatsthebigfndeal]

Orient is owned by the same company (Epson) and they produce better watches with better quality control for less money. At some point, we just have to admit that they're living off the brand name and charging far more than they should. I'm 52 years old and I've been a seiko fanboy since I was a teenager but they aren't what they were. They're just a mall brand, now. And I get it, genuine enthusiasts are a tiny fraction of the market so they certainly aren't obligated to cater to all of us watch nerds. It would be pretty cool, however, if they would throw us the occasional bone. I'm wearing my 009 as I type this and that only emphasizes my point. We begged for years to have a hacking/handwinding movement with sapphire for the skx. What did they give us, though? A "sport" mall watch without a screw down crown and an exhibition case back that no one wanted. And they jacked up the price. Epson produces everything involved in the making of their watches. And I mean everything. They even grow their own quartz!!! They are in a position to produce watches for far less money than any other manufacturer on the planet. Instead, they give us hardlex, crappy bracelets, misalignment issues and increased prices for endless "re-issues" that cost twice what they should. It would cost Epson less than half as much to produce an islander but they would charge over twice as much. It's hard to even take them seriously, anymore.

[@betochiwas]

True, the only thing that don{t like of Orient is the logo to be honest.

[@dustywaxhead]

Just bought an Orient Bambino and I agree. Their Orient Kamasu in red is gorgeous however I wish they released smaller sizes. Seiko is a bit better in this regard

[@NexDim.]

Thanks for making this video. I have no skin in the game but after a while it gets annoying seeing the same comments about seiko prices. Everything has gone up, I hope the same people are complaining about food, gas, and cars too because those are the things that really matter.

[@oakmen4604]

It's a post covid economy. Businesses raised prices because of uncertainty, profited massively, and left it there claiming it was inflation that caused it. You can see this with grocery stores and their weekly sales. Everything is marked up, but nobody buys until it's at a reasonable price. Yeah, there's overhead with a large scale business, but manufacturing at scale should drive the price down per part and balances out the additional business financial needs. What businesses are trying to do is drive up their profits per unit because there's a limited customer base anyways.

[@98167]

hi Mark. I’ve come across your ads while watching KZbin videos. I like your sales pitch, with humor. I suggest you showcase watches that are just being released, hot sellers, etc on your ads. keep it up team: long island + Mark 🤩

[@SteveDonev]

You said it yourself. Its the market that decides what a good is worth not the manufacturer. That is what the gray market is. Seiko has been fighting against the gray market in order to artificially boost prices, so by definition they are overpriced.

[@drregmonster4371]

Most people have no understanding of economics and the running of businesses, especially small businesses such as Long Island Watch. The other person who has talked about this has been Brian Goulet of Goulet pens. Thank you for this video.

[@theshadowman1398]

and yet my seiko collection keeps growing. but then again I order directly from Japan and am only in the prospex camp.

[@islandwatch]

👍🏻

[@lamentate07]

Where do you order them from?

[@ajmarion]

@@lamentate07Sakura is a good vendor to order from - their prices are good, and shipping is surprisingly fast from Japan

[@thewheelieguy]

​@lamentate07 Two I have dealt with are Sakura Watches and ShoppingInJapan for JDM Seiko and Citizen.

[@martinalarconcarbajal417]

From where my friend?

[@shlfung]

Thanks Marc, great explanation. Very insightful.

[@sinesaii]

I think the best Seiko’s cost more now. Seiko owns the $800 to $1500 space. Personally, I always liked the SARX and SBDC models. I have a few of those, and they are really good. I still love my Astron, and that was expensive a decade ago.

[@lamentate07]

Agree. I recently bought a Presage Craftmanship Series watch with a black lacquer dial for around 1300 USD. I can't think of a better looking watch I've seen for that price. If it was a Swiss watch, it would cost thousands more.

[@luist.1919]

Great explanation! Honestly, I don’t remember when I last bought a Seiko. I grew up on Long Island so I love wearing my Islander watches. Even my wife questioned me one day. “Why do you want a Rolex? You can get an Islander!” 😎

[@michaelmyers4176]

Totally totally agree

[@islandwatch]

👍🏻

[@prwoland3750]

Smart, factual, and as always super interesting and perfectly delivered. Thank you! I would add that the supply chain getting better (in Asia) has lowered the barrier of entry for “microbrands” while Seiko continues to do absolutely everything in house (very Japanese and I love it). I personally value this quest for perfection ( or control freakness).

[@islandwatch]

Thanks so much for checking out the vid

[@chrishynes6091]

My SKX 007 is sitting in the sock drawer waiting to be my retirement watch. EDIT for clarification... so I can wear it daily without worrying about dinging it up at work. I'm not holding it to cash in for retirement money. 🙄 Some good replies though.😆

[@natevanderloon9060]

Life is short you might not make it to retirement. Get that bad boy out and enjoy it

[@thegorn]

What do you mean by that? I wear mine.

[@chrisgray8318]

You seen what they are selling for? Outrageous.

[@pacovl46]

That’s never gonna happen, if you’re implying that it will massively increase in price and then you can sell it and live out your days off the price you’ll get for it because they’ve made WAY too many of them. Unless you’re planning on becoming a vampire and on still being around in 2 centuries. 🤪

[@jonirwin7316]

Why? It won't be worth that much.

[@robbbbery]

To your point 1, you say seiko is the one killing the grey market, so that's hardly a reason not to complain about seiko pricing. To your point 3, if a company is handling their growth well, the extra cost of hr, new distributors, etc. are offset by the increase in sales unlocked by entering new markets--and THEN some because of the gains from economy of scale. Are there a bunch of lean, mean mom and pop outfits undercutting huge companies like Target and Amazon by offering a superior product at a lower price? No! The opposite. Bigger company does not equal bigger price.

[@stevemc75]

You don’t know what you are talking about. So stop.

[@johngibson7127]

you nailed this. Makes a lot of sense. Great video

[@keesketsers5866]

Yes, they have overhead costs etc etc. I accept that, but there is ZERO excuse for asking $1000 for a watch that barely runs +20 a day, has a misaligned chapter ring and a terrible bracelet and very low power reserve. Their company size SHOULD enable them to get that right. All my (expensive) Seiko's have these problems. I love the look of Seiko watches, but they get almost no wrist time because of these issues. Aftersales is a joke too, according to Seiko a misaligned chapter ring is "to be expected, so not covered in warranty". Funny that all other brands don't have that "expected" problem.

[@Jim-j9e]

Question, didn't you LOOK at any of the watches before you bought them? If you got them over the net it's on you my friend, If you had problems with the first why keep getting them without first looking at the next one. Sorry but your story doesn't make sense

[@gamesetmatt23]

I came into the watch community right at the tail end of the "cheap-Seiko" era. I don't look back and remember how "cheap" a Seiko used to be... to me, Seikos just cost "Seiko money". Perspective has so much do to with it. I appreciate you sharing some perspective Marc.

[@bigsmooshflopdong33]

This biggest issue is people can't think things through logically and just hop onto what they read on the internet. They see a bunch of people complaining online about price and just hop on board. There is a large portion of society who just can't think for themselves.

[@islandwatch]

That's true.

[@bigsmooshflopdong33]

@islandwatch I don't mean this from a pessimistic point of view, but rather just a realistic point of view. Herd mentality, cognitive dissonance, and nostalgia for the past are all completely normal but typically get in the way of facts and logic.

[@bigsmooshflopdong33]

@islandwatch another bummer is most folks income hasn't kept up with the rapid rise in inflation, rent, and cost of living in general. So that gap between retail cost and expendable cash seems that much greater. That's also not the fault of Seiko.

[@WINDINGCROWNS]

@bigsmooshflopdong33 I agree. They also do that with Hublot. They jump on the bandwagon and hate a watch they have never owned 😂

[@barrettwbenton]

I have found it funny how Seiko somehow became the Third Rail of "why are watch prices so much higher now?", totally ignoring the rest of the economy in general, as if the watch market is somehow cocooned from everything else. Good on you for this apparently necessary bit of enlightenment, Marc!

[@kb9oak749]

Whatever the case with Seiko pricing, if I don't see the value for the $, I'm not buying it. Not paying a premium for Seiko.

[@steveizzo5853]

Maybe Seiko sales are down for Mark so he has to justify the higher prices that Seiko is demanding him to charge. Its pretty cut and dry, a $200 Pagni Design or San Martin will get a Seiko movement, sapphire crystal, 200m water resistance. Half the Seiko's are made in China and the quality is there.

[@stevemc75]

What is “premium?” That is such a subjective term.

[@theenavybluemonster]

Thank you for making this great informative video. I’ve been getting tired of all the silly chatter about Seiko’s prices especially from many KZbinrs.

[@fletchoid]

The "reason" Seiko watches are so expensive doesn't negate the fact that I can no longer afford them, and am buying watches of similar or better quality made by brands that I can afford.

[@nspr9721]

Exactly. Bottom line I get equal or better build quality and specs, Titanium, strong lume, sapphire glass and ceramic inserts for a fraction of the price elsewhere. I also get 'scalable' versions (like the excellent Thorn FF diver) where even the mineral crystal bead-blasted steel version is a treat, before you get to sapphire and titanium. And I want an Islander soon...

[@BaronStVon]

Thank you for sharing your business knowledge

[@Royal_BLT]

🇨🇦 Get back to me when you find a better watch than my Seiko ! I bought it new, 52 years ago, for about $50 ! Today it is worth about $2000 and still runs perfectly accurately ! Not many watches can match my 1972 Seiko Automatic Chronograph Pogue ! 🇨🇦

[@mikes121]

Good summation. Very informative.

[@islandwatch]

Thanks.

[@melvinleok]

If this was simply a matter of the elimination of the grey market and inflation, which affects the entire watch industry, the Seiko would have still been able to maintain its value proposition relative to the competition. The simple fact of the matter is that Seiko has stood still while the rest of the industry has made dramatic improvements in quality, movement accuracy specifications. It now faces substantial competition from entry-level Swatch group brands like Tissot, and the landscape is indeed even more stark when you look at the quality you get from Chinese brands and microbrands. I don't shy away from paying a premium for an established brand name and the heritage, but when the quality of the product you get from a Chinese brand is higher than a Seiko costing several times more, then that is a problem that Seiko needs to address. Put in the infrastructure investment necessary to make a product that can compete on the basis of quality, and charge more for it. Offering a poorer quality product with mediocre specifications and charging more solely on the basis of heritage and brand name is going to be a losing proposition.

[@eggs-benny]

Great video, thanks for sharing the history of the gray market in the early 2000’s

[@jodee8831]

Those may be valid, and arguable, points... but in the end.. your perspective is inevitable biased because you are a Seiko retailer

[@helloxuxu]

Marc, this is the best watch related content I’ve seen in months. You’re spot on. Some of Seiko’s recent releases that are being massively trashed over pricing such as the new “SNXS” series and some of the classic 5 reissues, will be sought after once they themselves are discontinued. Perhaps they’ll be even more sought after in future exactly because they may be shunned by the contemporary market.

[@mahabir_navin]

You look good in that color

[@islandwatch]

Thanks! My wife got it for me :)

[@Jelloc]

​@@islandwatchIs it because it is in trend with the current Tiffany Blue colours for watches?

[@MN12BIRD]

MSRP and "price too low to show" is definitely a real thing in many industries. I used to work at a computer store that sold a certain brand of router (newer brand at the time but common now) and we sold them below MSRP. Eventually the brand got big enough that a big retail chain started to carry them. They didn't like that we were selling them cheaper, below MSRP and complained to the supplier and eventually they told us we can't display a price lower than MSRP and if we continued they'd stop supplying us! Grey market can say we're selling below MSRP but you don't get the manufactures warranty perhaps because like you said they were brought in from another country? Brand recognition is worth something. Just how much it's worth is going to depend on the buyer! Sure if I could get a Seiko with the same specs for a little more I would. But if the microbrand is half the price or less for the same specs and quality. Well, I might not be able to justify that. But it depends.

[@slipit9]

One of the best vids you’ve ever done Marc and the very best video explaining cost. Those of us who wear Islander are making the heritage. Had to start somewhere. Cheers mate.

[@islandwatch]

Glad it was helpful!

[@callioscope]

Thank you for a super informative video that explains things. Right now I am wearing a modded datejust Seiko. Would love to have you do a video on those watches. I can’t believe I even know they exist, but somehow I do, and while it feels a bit sketchy to own one, it is beautiful.

[@samaantree]

I have to agree with Mark on the pricing here. A grand seiko, costs about £6000 pounds so a turtle with all those specs costing around £700 is still very good imo.

[@islandwatch]

Thanks for that.

[@Nick-wh4jt]

Yup agree

[@subeijekalo5884]

I agree with everything, I argued many times with people mentioning points 2 and 3, that’s something that normal to anyone who knows anything about business. But thank you Mark for point number 1, that was very informative for me.

[@islandwatch]

👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

[@chosearmandoarmando3864]

I like their design and wearability, SNXS revival is spot on. I hope they continue with SNKL. The only disadvantage is no sapphire crystal.

[@islandwatch]

Thanks!

[@felo6035]

Outstanding analysis Marc. Very good rationalization and explanation of the market.

[@islandwatch]

Thank you

[@felo6035]

​@@islandwatch👍🙌

[@ElderPinto254]

i think seikos are good !!! people and prices if you love the watch and you have the money just buy it dont let people scare you wth aligment problems bla bla i have a lot of seikos and they are all good! i look arround but i always come back to dear old seiko!

[@islandwatch]

Same here.

[@michaeloneil3653]

Great video! Such insight into the watch business love those videos

[@davidtobelembenzaquen7420]

You are right! I love seiko. Having Breitling, BaumeEtMercier, I allways come back to a Seiko!

[@islandwatch]

Same here!

[@simonmcguire4290]

Excellent video and a change from some of the usual Seiko bashing found on social media. I note a lot of people poo poo Seiko trawling their own back catalogue to save on design and development costs but so do most of their competitors including both Japanese and Swiss brands. Also worth mentioning the savings some of the Chinese homage brands can achieve by borrowing established designs.

[@Thomas-dz4eg]

We have MAP pricing on a few products in my industry. The idea behind it is, to give the smaller retailer without the buying power a chance to compete with bigger stores. You sell the product for what ever price you want but, you can only advertise the MAP price. If you get caught advertising below MAP, you will get spanked or loose the entire product line.

[@islandwatch]

Yup, you got it.

[@cloudzrest]

Thank you Mark I love your insights into the watch industry!

[@CasualCommentator]

Completely disagree. A very standard Seiko dive watch 10 yrs ago was around $300. Today when Seiko releases a new dive watch the price is close to $2000. It has been a very obvious strategy...each new release comes with a hike in price (but not a hike in quality).

[@WristWatcher]

What about Rolexs that used to be $300?

[@lamentate07]

And for $2000 you are getting much better design and specs. Try comparing like with like next time.

[@Cynicalgeek743]

@@WristWatcher Rolexes weren’t $300 10 years ago. We all understand inflation and it hasn’t been over 600% in the last decade

[@Ninjamlm]

​@@lamentate07not really. A slightly longer power reserve movement but still unregulated?

[@brokeindio5072]

Aren’t there still 300 seiko dive watches?

[@behonestwithyourself3718]

The problem with currency devaluation is wages are the the last to increase it seems. The average worker is always one step behind.

[@achraftahir]

I call bullshit on the price hikes “justification” especially when a Seiko 5 which was 100$ got reissued for 450$ with pretty much the same specs. My guess is they’re trying to go upmarket but they’re going the wrong way about it

[@sparta007ot]

totally, they got hype so they make it higher and gain more money that all, weirdly other watch companies didnt increase price that much. atleast we can still find old seiko 5 on chrono24 for cheap as they should be

[@jeffmagic32]

Around 7 years ago I got a new Sarb 033 for $303. And honestly, you can get a watch with better quality, finishing and qc from the better Chinese brands these days. And of course the Sarb is now going for double what I bought it for. (The Sarb now lives in my junk drawer, having a taken a tiny knock which wrecked the movement.)

[@NicholasANappiNick]

Is McDonald’s the value it once was?☹️☹️☹️☹️

[@mahboobahmad9743]

Very well explained Mark

[@jaymt1982]

That criticism is fair. They are not the value proposition they once were. They are definitely more expensive and it just doesn't make sense to buy the regular Seiko watches now (I won't buy them and I will wait till I can afford a Grand Seiko). I get Mark's arguments and he does have a point. If I was coming into the market now Seiko would seem fair but I am not. I got my SKX009 at 220 dollars and so I can't turn that part of my brain off when looking at a Seiko. Also I like Islander because I know the next person who knows of the brand will be another watch guy and not just a rando person. The civilians can have their civilian brands 😅😉.

[@islandwatch]

Agreed.

[@sparta007ot]

i bought seiko quartz for 99€ years ago, now they sell it 250€, for the same quartz ... they steal people

[@michaeldonaher9041]

do you offer tours of your watch factory

[@Gtee5]

Islanders are the value that Seikos used to be, plus better specs and wider selection.

[@islandwatch]

Thanks!

[@H0kram]

One of the most important video for the watch community out there. I first was like anybody else a few years ago and onward, complaining about their prices, but this is just unfair. Credit goes where credit is deserved. Thank you so much for this, it is very enlightening, Marc. Prime example of a business owner in my book. I will throw that video at the face of anybody who will complain again about Seiko because they can have a Tandorio for 70 dollars. Ps : I'll still be happy to pay more, on top of VAT, if you opened a 3PL/get an AD in the EU. Sorry, I know how you feel about this but I just had to 😂

[@TennesseeMike]

Good topic Professor Mark. Interesting however how price of Televisions has dramatically decreased over last decade.

[@samaantree]

And cost of microwaves for that matter. Economies of scales is also a huge factor though lol.

[@AverageBros]

Wristwatches are not a new technology that will get exponentially cheaper to produce as microchips shrink and become more powerful for less. Also, consider the price disparity between newer upstart value focused brands and legacy brand pricing for similarly spec'd products.

[@TennesseeMike]

@@AverageBros Great point. I do wonder however if technology (especially robotics) could eventually have an impact on watch industry and pricing.

[@AverageBros]

@@TennesseeMike It already has, but the economies of scale still apply. Seiko is vertically integrated, they have to pay engineers to produce, maintain, and upgrade any automations and don't have the luxury of just ordering a finished goods or semi-finished components without taking on the associated overhead. They have to produce/sell more to get back the ROI. Also, remember that the majority of Seiko's sales are B2B and not direct-to-consumer, so their wholesale margins are much lower than a full retail sale.

[@L233233]

@@AverageBros Vertically integration is usually done to DECREASE costs, not increase them. I always find that argument strange that somehow, in the watch business, it's supposed to be the other way round. Yes, some luxury watch brands that produce everything in-house because it's part of their luxury image incur higher costs but at the level of mass production that Seiko is at? Being vertically integrated is a massive cost saver. If it wasn't, they wouldn't do it.

[@peteanddrake4242]

I am all ears since Mark is the most honest and customer focused watch dealer I've ever known. I still have my Seiko Atlas he sold me in the mid-2000s for $365 or so....but back in 2018, I paid $1800 for a Seiko Presage....When base Seiko got too expensive for the specs, I bought my wife one of Mark's Lon Island Watch creations and she adores it--for $350. My grail watch is still a Grand Seiko and when the time comes I hope I can still by it around $7k-8k....

[@doniherald7745]

my interest in watch is gone after the downgrade of budget seiko watch, at least my wallet is safe, im grateful and dissapointed at the same time

[@islandwatch]

Haha, thanks.

[@abneriidelacruz6705]

Mark, that's the best explanation I have heard. People like to blame Seiko for increasing their prices but so has everyone else! The affordable Swiss brands like Tissot and Hamilton are way more expensive than they used to be and back to your reasons , they also apply to those. The used market is where value is at for the informed. For someone who has just returned to watch collecting I find the used market the best value for any watch brand.

[@ThePlaiibox]

The 6r family of movements are terrible and in no way reflect the quality or reliability of the s200, and equivalent eta's in the 500-1200 price range. They are great if only paying 200-500

[@KTakahara]

Hard to find any watch with ETA (or even a Sellita for that matter) under $1K. The Seiko 6L (not 6R) series was made to rival the ETA2800 series, and it has outperformed my ETAs consistently. Unfortunately they dont release many SKUs using the 6L movements.

[@catlike1]

If regulated, these movements are quite good for the price. They are much cheaper than the Sellitta/ETAs. Problem is Seiko rarely regulates them at the factory, which they should for any watch above say $600. Many microbrands using Seiko movements do and get good performance out of them. BTW, the ETA 2824 has a well known helicoptering problem, which I myself have encountered (and is why you should limit winding a watch with a 2824).

[@L233233]

@@catlike1 It is unclear how widespread the ETA/Stellita hand winding problems are. There are only a few actual proven instances of damage to the movement from hand winding, considering that, at this points, there are probably a double-digit amount of millions of these movements in use. They've been around for decades.

[@islandwatch]

I've heard that alot, esp of the 6R35.

[@ThePlaiibox]

@@KTakahara tissot prx, certina ds action diver both around 5/600. Anything from Hamilton. Some longines models under 1k. There's plenty out there. Mido, zodiac, need I go on?

[@Cville2347]

Very nice and informative video. I never knew that there were so many variables. This helps to clear up a bit of the confusion on Seiko prices but it really hasn't changed my mind about Seiko. I haven't purchased a Seiko in years and with all the great micro brands out there I can scratch my watch "itch" with a lot of very interesting brands with extremely competitive prices and specs that put Seiko to shame.

[@Mystery_Man84]

Seiko can keep their heritage and their worldwide distributions😂. Their problem is they think they’re Rolex and they’re just not.

[@thegorn]

Exactly. They are full of themselves. some cool retro designs but Omega or Rolex - they are not.

[@Ballahooligan1]

Yep. A few more years of over pricing and dodgy QC and they'll have handed over 'heritage' status to the likes of San Martin.

[@islandwatch]

Well, I don't think they "think" they are Rolex. But I do think they "feel their own" responsibility to be innovative.

[@Mystery_Man84]

@@islandwatch well then they keep their “innovations” because nobody wants to pay “top dollar” for those entry level watches

[@mk84142]

Awesome video. Thank you for the insights.

[@Infraredxxxxx]

Great video 👍🏾, my best KZbin decision thus far has been subscribing to your channel. The truth isn't always fun but lies aren't sustainable..

[@White_Collar_Prepper]

I remember not too long ago that SNK was on Amazon for about $55 and the Alpinist could be found around Christmas and Father's Day for around $300. Regret not getting all of them now.

[@sparta007ot]

same lol, now i buy other brand

[@garydworshak5329]

Mark, thanks for another timely, interesting, and informative video!

[@islandwatch]

My pleasure!

[@dissident_mantis7]

Marc, great video. I recently picked up the SPB453 at retail, and some may think that it’s overpriced, but Seiko put a lot of money into redesigning the movement and case for that watch. Also, please make a Juby bracelet for these new Seiko 3day MAS models 😎

[@demonstructie]

Video title: why Seikos have become more expensive Video content: a bunch of reasons why Seikos have become more expensive Closing thoughts: Seikos haven't become more expensive Nice one Marc 😅

[@tylerjames646]

Very insightful. This is one of the most informative videos about the industry I've ever watched.

[@islandwatch]

Many thanks.

[@oorangeo]

Blew my mind. Excellent video. Thanks for doing that research and putting this together. I'm so tired of people complaining about seiko prices. (... Please get rid of that Sriracha bottle though it's really ugly 😓)

[@fabiansuarez523]

Mark are you going to have SPB453. I will likecto buy from an AD . Hope you answer

[@dandechino2]

Good information. I might be looking at Islander for my next watch

[@michaelkeefer4293]

This is a very interesting and informative video Marc, and I agree with you 100%. However, the customer is rarely going to think of all these factors when they're going to buy a watch, from their perspective the value proposition for buying a Seiko has diminished. Especially when you factor that most of our incomes, in recent years, have not kept pace with the skyrocketing inflation.

[@AstroVanTribe]

You're right, I agree with everything you stated.... I still hate the new Seiko logo 🤣

[@gerardhiggins1]

I need to size a bracelet on my Bulova Men's Modern - 97D120. Can anyone tell me what type of pins are in the bracelet? Is it pin and collar?

[@BorisVodka]

Great video Marc! A lot of people, myself included, needed to hear this.

[@islandwatch]

Thanks!