Why Seiko Watches Have Gotten So Expensive

[@ErikL727]

Here's my problem: Every time I see a Seiko I really like, it's 1k or more. That's just a lot of scratch for a Seiko, when so many other options start to avail at that price point. Last time I went through that exercise, I wound up buying a Doxa 600T for right around 1k. Seemed to me to be a much better move.

[@eyeheartsushi2212]

That is what’s happening with me as well.

[@jimmymcclure4549]

It is just capitalism., or unregulated capitalism. The more the wealth of the country is in fewer hands the less the many hands have to pay for things. So compianes like the micro brands pop up to cater to the masses of people who fall out of the ability or willingness to pay the amount of money that fewer and fewer people can affords to pay for something like a watch. The "luxury" watch prices are getting higher because they are making less of them because the number of people who can afford them are going down. As the smaller businesses run by the folks who are claiming their toilet paper as a business tax deduction and their cars, computers , watches etc. begin to be butchered by the oligarchs thiose prices will go higher because it is the smaller than they think they are people who are buying the things. and they are getting eaten alive by the day by the predators at the top.

[@lamentate07]

The Presages over 1k are often very nice, especially the Craftmanship Series. Where are you going to get a real lacquer dial with that kind of finishing for 1500-1700 USD? If those watches were Swiss, they would be thousands more.

[@WordMadeFlesh777]

Yup and the bracelets are trash. Great watch cases but…just junk bracelets.

[@BluGiant14]

@@jimmymcclure4549 fantastic argument and one that I definitely agree with

[@oakmen4604]

It's a post covid economy. Businesses raised prices because of uncertainty, profited massively, and left it there claiming it was inflation that caused it. You can see this with grocery stores and their weekly sales. Everything is marked up, but nobody buys until it's at a reasonable price. Yeah, there's overhead with a large scale business, but manufacturing at scale should drive the price down per part and balances out the additional business financial needs. What businesses are trying to do is drive up their profits per unit because there's a limited customer base anyways.

[@bogrot69]

Makes a lot f sense. From now on, when I hear someone mention it, I'll let them know how much better off they are buying an Islander! 😁

[@islandwatch]

Hahahaha

[@jodee8831]

Those may be valid, and arguable, points... but in the end.. your perspective is inevitable biased because you are a Seiko retailer

[@dustinthewind09]

I think it's really great Mark is taking this time to be honest with us consumers. Educating us is not his responsibility, yet he cares enough to do so. Thank you, good sir.

[@bartfloyd4538]

Yes he’s Awesome to us his dear customers .❤

[@PETERJOHN101]

Please. Mark is a seller, he is trying to maintain market presence in the face of increasing competition. It's not story time. By the way, I have been a customer of his since his early days. I am not a fan of his website offerings due to a high percentage of perpetually unavailable models. A more helpful model for showing inventory / availability is needed.

[@TheTimLara]

Love these industry analysis content videos. The arguments you presented can basically be rolled up to "don't hate the player, hate the game" imo. Markets gonna market. 🤷‍♂️

[@SteveDonev]

But by cracking down on the gray market seiko is making sure that markets can’t market and artificially pumping up the price. The game is fine, its the player thats trying to squeeze more money out of consumers than what the market would normally call for

[@brianmccord7387]

@@SteveDonev exactly. When Rolex bought Bucherer everyone was like oh look at them continuing to monopolize the market. But when Seiko actively seeks out and strangles ghost buyers, it’s OK?

[@SteveDonev]

@@brianmccord7387 💯

[@TheTimLara]

@@SteveDonev I'm not sure I understand what people consider gray market dealers I guess..? I still seem to have no problem finding "NIB" Seikos on eBay or C24, etc, often for a decent discount, but I generally just choose to support my ADs anyway because I can also get decent discounts there and then get full warranty coverage which is worth it to me. I know some people enjoy the "hunt" of finding deals though so I understand that's part of it if sources you used to find have dried up.

[@islandwatch]

Thanks so much.

[@TheChaz5504]

The fact you would do this video, perhaps even undermining your own brand a bit, really speaks to your integrity. Great points. In general, many people do not embrace the reality of change and are stuck like a broken record on the way things were back in the day- and deny the completely logical reasons why they are different and refuse to adapt. Sad reality of our species.

[@sinesaii]

I do think many people care a lot about signaling to others, and for them, they only want a watch to display wealth, not to enjoy. These people cannot buy a $4k Seiko. The same folks call Tudor “the poor man’s Rolex” and let everyone who ever meets them know that they have a Rolex and their pen is Mont Blanc (not a great pen maker, but good for showing off) and they will bore you with what stupid luxury car they own. I worked with a clown like that once. He was almost a walking stereotype (short, insecure, showy). He would never stop complaining about an NYC partner who bought a house in Harlem. It was a beautiful home, but this guy had the Pakistani gynecologist McMansion in the suburbs with tiny, sad trees and a pathetic lawn, but always the same Mercedes out front. Those guys go on Rolex waiting lists and do not understand why independent brands exist or why every clothing brand does not have garish labels.

[@marcob.7801]

The ONLY sad reality my friend is that MOST if not ALL manufdcturers are GREEDY bastardos! I'm not against making a honest buck,...operative being HONEST! But all this GREED has made me a smarter (and far more patient) consumer to the point that if I can't get a good deal, I DON'T BUY!

[@gtd772]

On a strict dollar for dollar basis I can appreciate that a Seiko watch purchased today has remained relatively in line with prior pricing. However, I think Seiko's reputation has suffered through their being slow to adapt to the expectations of buyers, particularly when those buyers compared what Seiko is offering against any number of brands/microbrands. Sapphire crystals and ceramic bezels became almost standard several years ago, as did easily sizable and adjustable bracelets. Meanwhile, Seiko plodded along with Hardlex, wandering bezels with aluminum inserts, and downright miserable bracelets (I've replaced the bracelet on every Seiko I've ever owned). Moreover, Seiko's movements seem barely regulated -- the only mechanical watches I've bought which are less accurate out of the box are Vostok watches, though at a much lower price point. Microbrands, sometimes utilizing the very same Seiko movements, managed to ship a product which was superior in many ways to a factory Seiko, especially in the rather important category of timekeeping. I guess my basic point (and I do have one) is that the perception of Seiko as being overpriced really has less to do with the final retail cost than it does with the buyer's notion of value for money spent. And while Seiko used to score highly on the value scale, it now lags in comparison to any number of competitors ... Islander, to provide one pertinent example.

[@islandwatch]

Thanks for the great comment!

[@NazidKimmie]

This ^^^ Its not about the price you are willing to pay - it's the perception (real or imagined) of the actual value for money - if Microbrands are supplying the same movements with Sapphire glass, good quality on the fly adjustable bracelets etc... at a lower price point than say Seiko 5's that don't have these base features... yeah I would tend to think that in terms of value for money - they are NOT value prospect they once were... They should up their movements/bracelets/glass then I think might be willing to pay extra for the kudos of owning an iconic brand.. Oh I'm not a Seiko basher, I own two and love them!

[@gritsteel4559]

@@NazidKimmie I agree ... not having sapphire glass alone is a dealbreaker for me. of course, it's not just Seiko, but Citizen and Orient too (thanks to Orient for their Kamasu and Mako 3 having sapphire). Anyway, I don't care much now about Seiko having high prices, there are so many more affordable alternatives with standard sapphire, and using Seiko movements anyway lol.

[@khairulhelmihashim2510]

the pricing structure is purposely designed to make those with financial means and horological literacy skip the lower tier models, while unsuspecting average buyers paid more for low spec models to gain admission into the esteemed brand.

[@nspr9721]

Mate you've nailed it.I am the original Seikophile, adored their wristpieces and turned on to the amazing word of mechanical watches through the House of Seiko. However sapphire glass, ceramic bezel inserts all fully lumed (and overall build quality to an equal or higher quality at a much lower price) have become standard now. Often this is achieved using the same Seiko movements. Many of the Steeldive, Addiesdive, San Martin, Ix & Dao, Rdunae etc items are superbly well done or with very minor design compromises to hit the cost limits. Seiko now seems to be charging way too much for way t little and not taking its fan base seriously any more.

[@toddg4385]

Your videos are informative. I really appreciate your transparency! Thanks again. Stay cool!

[@islandwatch]

Trying to, thank you.

[@etebol]

Mark your point is very valid. Inflation justifies somewhat the price increases. But salaries and hourly pay have not kept up with inflation, so people have also a valid point in complaining about prices.

[@islandwatch]

In the USA, sure, I get that.

[@senotriusneo6354]

Not just USA. Most economies are affected by this phenomenon. But, still, seiko is similar to what sony does- overpricing themselves out of the market. Most legacy Japanese brands are notorious for this;they haven't moved on.

[@zakofrx]

​@@senotriusneo6354yes.. Most Western or even other 1st world countries deal with the actions of the US...

[@jmand63]

Totally true.

[@brd4869]

If an item coming from brand 1 gives me 5 things while brand 2 gives me the same 5 things PLUS 2 or more for less, isn’t brand 1 overpricing? This is kind of like Toyota. Gives you an “updated” unit but in reality, is actually 20 years old underneath, and charges you a 202X rate. I’m sorry Mark, but if other brands can provide us with better offerings, with Seiko outsourcing most of their stuff anyway, why can’t they do the same?

[@chrishynes6091]

My SKX 007 is sitting in the sock drawer waiting to be my retirement watch. EDIT for clarification... so I can wear it daily without worrying about dinging it up at work. I'm not holding it to cash in for retirement money. 🙄 Some good replies though.😆

[@natevanderloon9060]

Life is short you might not make it to retirement. Get that bad boy out and enjoy it

[@thegorn]

What do you mean by that? I wear mine.

[@chrisgray8318]

You seen what they are selling for? Outrageous.

[@pacovl46]

That’s never gonna happen, if you’re implying that it will massively increase in price and then you can sell it and live out your days off the price you’ll get for it because they’ve made WAY too many of them. Unless you’re planning on becoming a vampire and on still being around in 2 centuries. 🤪

[@jonirwin7316]

Why? It won't be worth that much.

[@demonstructie]

Video title: why Seikos have become more expensive Video content: a bunch of reasons why Seikos have become more expensive Closing thoughts: Seikos haven't become more expensive Nice one Marc 😅

[@SteveDonev]

You said it yourself. Its the market that decides what a good is worth not the manufacturer. That is what the gray market is. Seiko has been fighting against the gray market in order to artificially boost prices, so by definition they are overpriced.

[@NicholasANappiNick]

Is McDonald’s the value it once was?☹️☹️☹️☹️

[@d3xmeister]

How about Sinn prices , or Oris prices ? How much did a Sinn 104 cost 6-7 years ago ? I bet it’s almost double now

[@islandwatch]

For sure

[@Bob_Smith19]

Sinn stopped being a good deal pre COVID. They have no competition in the US. There is only one place to purchase from.

[@zunedog31]

Our money isn't worth anywhere near what it was before covid stimulous.

[@teleguy5699]

People complained when the Hamilton field watch went up in price right around the pandemic. I still bought it. In ten years that price will sound cheap. We need to base value against real time, instead of nostalgia.

[@TheNinjaMarmot]

I like my Citzens. Eco drive beats anything else out there. All reliable and keeps charge for a long time.

[@islandwatch]

Citizen is one I didn't touch for a comparison reason.

[@Silver-st2zq]

Same here 👍

[@spacetoilet]

Same! I have the orange and blue promaster and I love it.

[@spacetoilet]

Also, I LOVE my seiko quartz titanium watch, it over time has me liking quartz watches more than autos just because I prioritize thinness above most things in a watch. That Seiko is incredibly comfortable and looks amazing.

[@framptonhendrix530]

I have 4 Citizen watches the only Automatic is the Tsuyosa, Citizen makes nice & durable Watches ✌️🙏

[@whatsthebigfndeal]

Orient is owned by the same company (Epson) and they produce better watches with better quality control for less money. At some point, we just have to admit that they're living off the brand name and charging far more than they should. I'm 52 years old and I've been a seiko fanboy since I was a teenager but they aren't what they were. They're just a mall brand, now. And I get it, genuine enthusiasts are a tiny fraction of the market so they certainly aren't obligated to cater to all of us watch nerds. It would be pretty cool, however, if they would throw us the occasional bone. I'm wearing my 009 as I type this and that only emphasizes my point. We begged for years to have a hacking/handwinding movement with sapphire for the skx. What did they give us, though? A "sport" mall watch without a screw down crown and an exhibition case back that no one wanted. And they jacked up the price. Epson produces everything involved in the making of their watches. And I mean everything. They even grow their own quartz!!! They are in a position to produce watches for far less money than any other manufacturer on the planet. Instead, they give us hardlex, crappy bracelets, misalignment issues and increased prices for endless "re-issues" that cost twice what they should. It would cost Epson less than half as much to produce an islander but they would charge over twice as much. It's hard to even take them seriously, anymore.

[@betochiwas]

True, the only thing that don{t like of Orient is the logo to be honest.

[@dustywaxhead]

Just bought an Orient Bambino and I agree. Their Orient Kamasu in red is gorgeous however I wish they released smaller sizes. Seiko is a bit better in this regard

[@robbbbery]

To your point 1, you say seiko is the one killing the grey market, so that's hardly a reason not to complain about seiko pricing. To your point 3, if a company is handling their growth well, the extra cost of hr, new distributors, etc. are offset by the increase in sales unlocked by entering new markets--and THEN some because of the gains from economy of scale. Are there a bunch of lean, mean mom and pop outfits undercutting huge companies like Target and Amazon by offering a superior product at a lower price? No! The opposite. Bigger company does not equal bigger price.

[@stevemc75]

You don’t know what you are talking about. So stop.

[@dainiu]

Great points. I say Seiko needs to do a few things 1. Create their own market for non-moving stock. Every fashion brand has outlet stores, periodic "sales" etc. 2. Create layers of accuracy for their movements. I don't think people realize that the accuracy of a $1000 Seiko is way higher than a $300 Seiko for SAME "NH" or "CR" numbered movement! 3. On the accuracy theme again, but long-term accuracy. Swiss movements tend to be more accurate out-of-the-box but, as years pass, their accuracy falls. Swiss movements have tighter tolerances, so it's natural. A ten year old $800 Tissot will have LOWER accuracy than a ten year old $800 Seiko. Of course, you can always service a watch, but that cost adds up.

[@prwoland3750]

Excellent thanks! And interestingly Seiko and Citizen do have outlets but only in Japan (within dedicated malls). I’m a great fan of Japan and have been there 10 times. It’s not unusual to find a 40% discount especially on high end pieces. Got 50% on a The Citizen this year, and 30%/40% on high end 8L powered Seiko divers, especially the expensive limited editions or JDM. Worth a trip especially now when 1$ is almost 160 ¥

[@islandwatch]

To your first point, the Grey and Manufacturer are necessary, but unlikely, partners.

[@fw1421]

All watches need to have periodic servicing,even quartz movements. If you watch the many watch repair/restoration videos on KZbin you will see how lubricants degrade over time. They all need to be serviced,cost effective or not. I had chucked my ‘76 6105 in my jewelry drawer in the ‘90’s and forgot about it. I’m watching KZbin and the algorithm shoots me a Wristwatch Revival video and he’s taking apart an old Seiko dive watch. I’m staring at it and ,that looks like the one I bought when I was in the USAF. I went rummaging around in my drawers and found my old Seiko. Dam if it wasn’t the same one! I shook it a bit and she started running. I watched the rest of the video and looked it up on Google and wow,they are worth upwards of $2000! I had worn that watch for 15 years every day. The crystal was so scratched you could hardly see through it. At that point I started looking for someplace to get it serviced. I ended up sending it to Seiko in New Jersey. They received it and said they could service it but couldn’t replace the crystal! Dam,that’s the big thing I wanted done so I had them send it back. I searched for a OEM crystal and found one in Israel for $100,a bit pricy but I wanted my watch repaired. I ended up getting it serviced by a company in California. I made the decision to have the watch just repaired rather than restored to like new condition and I like the patina it has,faded bezel and a few dings. It’s all wear that I put on it. I don’t wear it every day,I have my Apple Watch Ultra for that but I do wear it often. I don’t regret spending the money because it has sentimental value to me.

[@kart182]

I don’t think Seiko is going to make sales by saying “the accuracy sucks now, but in 10 years without a service, it’s going to suck less than the other guy!”

[@stevemc75]

Stop talking.

[@lammyjammer6670]

You forgot to mention that part of the deal of getting watches via gray market is the fact that you do not get the manufacturer warranty at that price either. A lot of people aren't aware of that.

[@islandwatch]

Yes, quite true.

[@FT4Freedom]

Good point. But I wouldn't have Seiko servicing my Seiko's anyway. I can get much better servicing from an independent watch person.

[@lammyjammer6670]

@@FT4Freedom This applies to all companies though. So, yeah, maybe you don't trust Seiko but a lot of people looking for the best price may not be aware that they only get that warranty honored through a proper AD. Depending on the store their own coverage may be hit or miss as well.

[@renehernandez6905]

@@FT4Freedomtrue!! Had to send king seiko for one issue.seiko broke something else,of it went again;you’d think they’d check their work.

[@AverageBros]

Thank you Marc, for this thoughtful, fair, and balanced take. Unfortunately, so many folks on YT have been regurgitating the, "Seiko has lost its way" narrative to cash in on the vocal minority of the market who spend all day clicking to complain about what they dislike vs. spending time supporting what they do like. I would add one other multiplying factor to note, JDM watches and the JPY to USD exchange rate. This disparity has skewed the market perception on top of the Grey Market and Inflation over the years as well, especially prominent for JDM only watches like the SARB which are also 15-20yrs old at this point, which are also some of the most popular enthusiast models, which molded many collectors' image of what Seiko's bang-per-buck value proposition was, while only being based on a small handful of niche models that were available so dramatically below MSRP and MAP.

[@islandwatch]

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!!!

[@TheBrah808]

Seiko for a 1000 bucks? Thats 🍌. Go hamilton grey for way better value.

[@nickkincanon4582]

Seiko is still my favorite major brand. I own a bunch of them across all price points. I know folks have had QA issues, but not me. Full vertical integration with massive variety at or under $1,000 is stlll a good deal to me. I’ve had no complaints with 4R and 6R movements. I know that micros sell for less with NH movements (I own them) but I like the Seiko designs. To each their own.

[@silajeep1]

Yes, I have several Seikos, all mechanical, they have their shortcomings that we all know about, but I really like their dial designs which is why I choose Seiko over Casio, citizen for example.

[@kart182]

Citizen does everything seiko does but better

[@nickkincanon4582]

@@silajeep1 I agree with that. I know that Citizen is quality, but I just haven’t found a design to my liking yet. Just a personal style thing. 😀

[@jasperjenkins3789]

@@kart182you’re absolutely right! Citizen has always been an amazing brand but very underrated. In the last few years they have really stepped it up as far as designs, quality has always been there but now I feel like they are listening to what people want. I was able pick up a Promaster diver automatic “Fujitsubo” for an absolute steal and the quality is unreal. Finishing is perfect, everything lines up, not a spec of dust on the dial unlike some Seikos’ and Hamilton I own, and the accuracy is on par with a chronometer!

[@islandwatch]

Thanks so much! I agree with you.

[@Jollopukki2]

friend, but what about Casio G-shock? they are also super-big brand, but can offer much better watches for decent price.

[@TitoVicVGC]

Solar G-shock square for less tan 90€ right now.. not 200+ for a Seiko 5.

[@FT4Freedom]

Thanks Mark. Love you man. 🎉 You're spot on this. I was an original Seikophile who grew up in the gray market. Nowadays it's more difficult to put money on a Seiko.

[@LikelyProcrastinating]

I’m with you here. I think with the grey market shrinking there will be less wrists sporting seiko. I have three, one I never wear and should sell but when I see a seiko and it’s price I pass and think, I’ll hold out for a GS or other. Buy what speaks to you.

[@islandwatch]

Thanks!

[@jeffreyalbarandorivera8595]

They will no longer build an affordable watches because they have a tons of movements which will be creatd for microbrands and they are cheap. And that Seiko know exactly that people will build a mod watches to represent the original one.

[@theshadowman1398]

and yet my seiko collection keeps growing. but then again I order directly from Japan and am only in the prospex camp.

[@islandwatch]

👍🏻

[@lamentate07]

Where do you order them from?

[@ajmarion]

@@lamentate07Sakura is a good vendor to order from - their prices are good, and shipping is surprisingly fast from Japan

[@thewheelieguy]

​@lamentate07 Two I have dealt with are Sakura Watches and ShoppingInJapan for JDM Seiko and Citizen.

[@martinalarconcarbajal417]

From where my friend?

[@Money-Fast-Plan-a]

Your innovation knows no bounds! 🚀 - "Success is walking from failure to failure with no loss of enthusiasm."

[@kb9oak749]

Whatever the case with Seiko pricing, if I don't see the value for the $, I'm not buying it. Not paying a premium for Seiko.

[@steveizzo5853]

Maybe Seiko sales are down for Mark so he has to justify the higher prices that Seiko is demanding him to charge. Its pretty cut and dry, a $200 Pagni Design or San Martin will get a Seiko movement, sapphire crystal, 200m water resistance. Half the Seiko's are made in China and the quality is there.

[@stevemc75]

What is “premium?” That is such a subjective term.

[@winduncan9818]

A 1k Seiko now is 1.3% of the average American pre tax household income (77k), probably closer to 2% of take home. Seiko price increases have outpaced income by a lot. Average income 10 years ago was like 53k, a $200 SKX was no big deal. Now a 1k Seiko is a larger purchase your guna scrutinize more.

[@alcozar5905]

Good video, thanks Mark!

[@islandwatch]

You are welcome. thanks for watching.

[@jeffmagic32]

Around 7 years ago I got a new Sarb 033 for $303. And honestly, you can get a watch with better quality, finishing and qc from the better Chinese brands these days. And of course the Sarb is now going for double what I bought it for. (The Sarb now lives in my junk drawer, having a taken a tiny knock which wrecked the movement.)

[@fletchoid]

The "reason" Seiko watches are so expensive doesn't negate the fact that I can no longer afford them, and am buying watches of similar or better quality made by brands that I can afford.

[@nspr9721]

Exactly. Bottom line I get equal or better build quality and specs, Titanium, strong lume, sapphire glass and ceramic inserts for a fraction of the price elsewhere. I also get 'scalable' versions (like the excellent Thorn FF diver) where even the mineral crystal bead-blasted steel version is a treat, before you get to sapphire and titanium. And I want an Islander soon...

[@tetocaloscojones8229]

yeah sure. Now you can calculate the same with salaries and tell me how much would be salaries now.

[@sinesaii]

I think the best Seiko’s cost more now. Seiko owns the $800 to $1500 space. Personally, I always liked the SARX and SBDC models. I have a few of those, and they are really good. I still love my Astron, and that was expensive a decade ago.

[@lamentate07]

Agree. I recently bought a Presage Craftmanship Series watch with a black lacquer dial for around 1300 USD. I can't think of a better looking watch I've seen for that price. If it was a Swiss watch, it would cost thousands more.

[@QoraxAudio]

Seiko has the benefit of economy of scale, compared to smaller brands. This should make their products *significantly* cheaper instead of more expensive, despite bigger overhead. It's just basic economics... As for inflation, you're right. However, wage growth is outpaced by inflation, so even if the watches are priced in line with inflation, they've become more expensive in a relative sense. At least that's how people perceive it, but it's actually the other way around: wages have gone down in value, while the value of most goods has been stable.

[@mahabir_navin]

You look good in that color

[@islandwatch]

Thanks! My wife got it for me :)

[@Jelloc]

​@@islandwatchIs it because it is in trend with the current Tiffany Blue colours for watches?

[@Rob954ever]

The only thing I'll buy from authorized dealers is luxury watches. Seikos and any other mid tier....all day long I'll buy it from the grey market. My reasoning is simple. I can buy at it so much cheaper ( as an example, the new Seiko 5 Field GMT was priced everywhere for 435.00. I got mine for 306.00 tax in) so if I have a problem, I can always replace the movement and probably still be under MSRP. I don't have a money tree in my backyard so...yeah. I'll do the grey market all day long. Not popular, I know, but neither is not having money in my bank account.🤷🏻Oh....and it's been my experience that the grey market is far from gone. 😉

[@Royal_BLT]

🇨🇦 Get back to me when you find a better watch than my Seiko ! I bought it new, 52 years ago, for about $50 ! Today it is worth about $2000 and still runs perfectly accurately ! Not many watches can match my 1972 Seiko Automatic Chronograph Pogue ! 🇨🇦

[@aldo9923]

Seiko still gives you a lot value for money. The brand history alone.

[@catlike1]

Totally agree with all 3 points re the crackdown on the grey market, inflation, and the fact that micro-brands eliminate the middleman whereas Seiko need to provide their ADs with profit margin and to support sales and service infrastructure. Sure, I wish they would improve their bracelets and use sapphire crystals more, but I still love their dial designs which continue to be hard to beat. And of course they and Citizen/Miyota help make the microbrand ecosystem possible with their movements.

[@islandwatch]

Thank you!

[@PKDuck-so7em]

ummm… did someone misplace a bottle of sriracha?

[@vbertrand]

One point that has been overlooked is : over time, economies of scale should push the price of a product downward as development costs are amortized. This COULD apply to Seiko.

[@jaad9848]

The vast majority of watch manufacturers with big names have reached the apex of their economies of scales years ago especially with the release of the apple watch eating into sales.

[@vaclav_fejt]

This is actually an eye opener. Not the inflation, I am aware of that, but the grey market situation. There's one thing left to be answered: Why can't Seiko adjust the 6R35 movements better? The positional variance is maddening. I could deal with bad isochronism, it's not a Kenissi, but the positions...

[@keesketsers5866]

Yes, they have overhead costs etc etc. I accept that, but there is ZERO excuse for asking $1000 for a watch that barely runs +20 a day, has a misaligned chapter ring and a terrible bracelet and very low power reserve. Their company size SHOULD enable them to get that right. All my (expensive) Seiko's have these problems. I love the look of Seiko watches, but they get almost no wrist time because of these issues. Aftersales is a joke too, according to Seiko a misaligned chapter ring is "to be expected, so not covered in warranty". Funny that all other brands don't have that "expected" problem.

[@Jim-j9e]

Question, didn't you LOOK at any of the watches before you bought them? If you got them over the net it's on you my friend, If you had problems with the first why keep getting them without first looking at the next one. Sorry but your story doesn't make sense

[@Gtee5]

Islanders are the value that Seikos used to be, plus better specs and wider selection.

[@islandwatch]

Thanks!

[@user-vv1qm5dj9c]

I am late to Seiko. I honestly believe they are priced competitively for what is being offered at several different price points. Seems like the market agrees.

[@melvinleok]

If this was simply a matter of the elimination of the grey market and inflation, which affects the entire watch industry, the Seiko would have still been able to maintain its value proposition relative to the competition. The simple fact of the matter is that Seiko has stood still while the rest of the industry has made dramatic improvements in quality, movement accuracy specifications. It now faces substantial competition from entry-level Swatch group brands like Tissot, and the landscape is indeed even more stark when you look at the quality you get from Chinese brands and microbrands. I don't shy away from paying a premium for an established brand name and the heritage, but when the quality of the product you get from a Chinese brand is higher than a Seiko costing several times more, then that is a problem that Seiko needs to address. Put in the infrastructure investment necessary to make a product that can compete on the basis of quality, and charge more for it. Offering a poorer quality product with mediocre specifications and charging more solely on the basis of heritage and brand name is going to be a losing proposition.

[@CDB84]

Bought my SNK for 49 dollars on Amazon 2018 hha

[@ani625]

Same. Got mine in 2017 for $45. Now they are around $200.. like wtf.

[@bigsmooshflopdong33]

This biggest issue is people can't think things through logically and just hop onto what they read on the internet. They see a bunch of people complaining online about price and just hop on board. There is a large portion of society who just can't think for themselves.

[@islandwatch]

That's true.

[@bigsmooshflopdong33]

@islandwatch I don't mean this from a pessimistic point of view, but rather just a realistic point of view. Herd mentality, cognitive dissonance, and nostalgia for the past are all completely normal but typically get in the way of facts and logic.

[@bigsmooshflopdong33]

@islandwatch another bummer is most folks income hasn't kept up with the rapid rise in inflation, rent, and cost of living in general. So that gap between retail cost and expendable cash seems that much greater. That's also not the fault of Seiko.

[@WINDINGCROWNS]

@bigsmooshflopdong33 I agree. They also do that with Hublot. They jump on the bandwagon and hate a watch they have never owned 😂

[@yehenala1]

Seiko are over priced. They are so arrogant that watches over $1000 not even regulated

[@CasualCommentator]

Completely disagree. A very standard Seiko dive watch 10 yrs ago was around $300. Today when Seiko releases a new dive watch the price is close to $2000. It has been a very obvious strategy...each new release comes with a hike in price (but not a hike in quality).

[@WristWatcher]

What about Rolexs that used to be $300?

[@lamentate07]

And for $2000 you are getting much better design and specs. Try comparing like with like next time.

[@Cynicalgeek743]

@@WristWatcher Rolexes weren’t $300 10 years ago. We all understand inflation and it hasn’t been over 600% in the last decade

[@Ninjamlm]

​@@lamentate07not really. A slightly longer power reserve movement but still unregulated?

[@brokeindio5072]

Aren’t there still 300 seiko dive watches?

[@michaelpowers5506]

I purchased your Brookdale black on a jubilee during the Father's Day sale. It is a great value and I have worn it everyday since. Keep up the good work.

[@michaelmyers4176]

Totally totally agree

[@islandwatch]

👍🏻

[@steveizzo5853]

Perception is reality, Seiko is over priced for what you get. You forgot to mention Seikos marketing budget or how much they are spending on brand ambassadors. Their sister company, Lorus, offers better value. Micro brands selling direct to consumer are a better value that out spec Seiko. You would think a company being vertically integrated would be better at keeping their costs low. Hopefully Seiko technical advancements from their higher tier brands will start to trickle down to the masses. You are paying for heritage, brand recognition, and better resale value if you need quick cash. A micro brand doesnt offer that.

[@ElderPinto254]

i think seikos are good !!! people and prices if you love the watch and you have the money just buy it dont let people scare you wth aligment problems bla bla i have a lot of seikos and they are all good! i look arround but i always come back to dear old seiko!

[@islandwatch]

Same here.

[@simonmcguire4290]

Excellent video and a change from some of the usual Seiko bashing found on social media. I note a lot of people poo poo Seiko trawling their own back catalogue to save on design and development costs but so do most of their competitors including both Japanese and Swiss brands. Also worth mentioning the savings some of the Chinese homage brands can achieve by borrowing established designs.

[@jaymt1982]

That criticism is fair. They are not the value proposition they once were. They are definitely more expensive and it just doesn't make sense to buy the regular Seiko watches now (I won't buy them and I will wait till I can afford a Grand Seiko). I get Mark's arguments and he does have a point. If I was coming into the market now Seiko would seem fair but I am not. I got my SKX009 at 220 dollars and so I can't turn that part of my brain off when looking at a Seiko. Also I like Islander because I know the next person who knows of the brand will be another watch guy and not just a rando person. The civilians can have their civilian brands 😅😉.

[@islandwatch]

Agreed.

[@coffeeisgood102]

Why would Seiko (or any company) care what the retailer sells the product for as long as they get their asking price from their customers? If I was a manufacturer I would not care what the final selling price is. As long as I get my price from the wholesaler.

[@steveizzo5853]

Its kinda like the cross fit franchise model, you can open a cross fit right next door to another cross fit and the better one will survive. Kinda like Seiko dealers with a brick and mortar storefront vs an online only.

[@ajh5407]

One reason is the grey dealers selling below MSRP undercuts Seiko ADs and retailers. Straining relationships and the bottom line of businesses. Those in contracts would lose out and in turn could stop buying from seiko. Those ADs and retailers mean more to seiko. The bulk of sales come from places like department stores & jewelry stores. Average consumers and regular folk are not buying from jomashop. So it’s in their interest to keep the buyers who deal in bulk happy. Not the grey market picking up production leftovers.

[@achraftahir]

I call bullshit on the price hikes “justification” especially when a Seiko 5 which was 100$ got reissued for 450$ with pretty much the same specs. My guess is they’re trying to go upmarket but they’re going the wrong way about it

[@larrylarry739]

EVERYTHING has gotten more expensive. For those who are just figuring that out I say, "Hello. Mr. Van Winkle."

[@slipit9]

One of the best vids you’ve ever done Marc and the very best video explaining cost. Those of us who wear Islander are making the heritage. Had to start somewhere. Cheers mate.

[@islandwatch]

Glad it was helpful!

Bought a seiko sarb035 in 2018, friends were making fun of me because I spent 600$ CAD on it. Now it's worth about double that amount!

[@doniherald7745]

my interest in watch is gone after the downgrade of budget seiko watch, at least my wallet is safe, im grateful and dissapointed at the same time

[@islandwatch]

Haha, thanks.

[@shaunroberts9285]

Seiko are my favourite all round watch brand. Agreed they are worth more than we have sometimes been used to seeing them sold for in the past. However imho, anything with a RRP for over £400 should have a sapphire crystal, good quality steel straps and buckles with machined endlinks. There should be no chapter ring or bezel alignment issues. £1000 plus watches should also have much better quality packaging, this all adds to the premium experience. This would at least keep Seiko in line with alternative mainstream choices, as well the good quality micro brands. (some really are not that good a quality). Good topic & video, thank you.

[@davidtobelembenzaquen7420]

You are right! I love seiko. Having Breitling, BaumeEtMercier, I allways come back to a Seiko!

[@islandwatch]

Same here!

[@Mr1MOA]

Here's a very simple explanation folks, its Inflation...........so unless you've been living under a rock for the last few years, most people would recognize almost everything has gone up in price.

[@samaantree]

I have to agree with Mark on the pricing here. A grand seiko, costs about £6000 pounds so a turtle with all those specs costing around £700 is still very good imo.

[@islandwatch]

Thanks for that.

[@Nick-wh4jt]

Yup agree

[@AlexanderB.]

When I bought my SPB143 I had to return 2 copies due to misaligned bezel inserts. Even Seiko watches loke the SPB143 thag are above 1,000 $ come with pretty basic 6R movements and the cheapest and nastiest diver's extension you can think of.

[@islandwatch]

Yeah, but I think most folks don't care.

[@chosearmandoarmando3864]

I like their design and wearability, SNXS revival is spot on. I hope they continue with SNKL. The only disadvantage is no sapphire crystal.

[@islandwatch]

Thanks!

[@tonyromano4341]

I hate to admit it but, on a whim, I bought a Pagani PD-1639 and it's an incredible value for the money. It might be a tad large for some people with its 43mm case but it has a saphire crystal, Seiko NH35A movement, ceramic bezel insert, stainless steel case and band, exhibition case back, 100M WR, etc... Yeah, there's a quality difference in the band and with the lume, but I paid $85 for this pup and I love it. I don't see the added value of a comperable Seiko which would probably cost me between 4 and $500 bucks at the very least. I have some nice swiss brands including Rolex, but this pup gets plenty of everyday wear with no regrets. No one is going to know what I paid for it. It looks good and works well. Besides, competition is good for the market place.

[@Thomas-dz4eg]

We have MAP pricing on a few products in my industry. The idea behind it is, to give the smaller retailer without the buying power a chance to compete with bigger stores. You sell the product for what ever price you want but, you can only advertise the MAP price. If you get caught advertising below MAP, you will get spanked or loose the entire product line.

[@islandwatch]

Yup, you got it.

[@H0kram]

One of the most important video for the watch community out there. I first was like anybody else a few years ago and onward, complaining about their prices, but this is just unfair. Credit goes where credit is deserved. Thank you so much for this, it is very enlightening, Marc. Prime example of a business owner in my book. I will throw that video at the face of anybody who will complain again about Seiko because they can have a Tandorio for 70 dollars. Ps : I'll still be happy to pay more, on top of VAT, if you opened a 3PL/get an AD in the EU. Sorry, I know how you feel about this but I just had to 😂

[@ThePlaiibox]

The 6r family of movements are terrible and in no way reflect the quality or reliability of the s200, and equivalent eta's in the 500-1200 price range. They are great if only paying 200-500

[@KTakahara]

Hard to find any watch with ETA (or even a Sellita for that matter) under $1K. The Seiko 6L (not 6R) series was made to rival the ETA2800 series, and it has outperformed my ETAs consistently. Unfortunately they dont release many SKUs using the 6L movements.

[@catlike1]

If regulated, these movements are quite good for the price. They are much cheaper than the Sellitta/ETAs. Problem is Seiko rarely regulates them at the factory, which they should for any watch above say $600. Many microbrands using Seiko movements do and get good performance out of them. BTW, the ETA 2824 has a well known helicoptering problem, which I myself have encountered (and is why you should limit winding a watch with a 2824).

[@L233233]

@@catlike1 It is unclear how widespread the ETA/Stellita hand winding problems are. There are only a few actual proven instances of damage to the movement from hand winding, considering that, at this points, there are probably a double-digit amount of millions of these movements in use. They've been around for decades.

[@islandwatch]

I've heard that alot, esp of the 6R35.

[@ThePlaiibox]

@@KTakahara tissot prx, certina ds action diver both around 5/600. Anything from Hamilton. Some longines models under 1k. There's plenty out there. Mido, zodiac, need I go on?

[@owenlaprath4135]

Seiko has gotten a lot better. Better calibres, better water resistance. The old and new Seiko-5 line I look at, which had not at all increased in prices since the 90s(!), was replaced by the new ones, and they are worth it. OK, so starting just under 200 dollars they are twice as much as the old Seiko-5 watches, but after 30 years, that is still beating inflation AND we get a better watch!

[@TennesseeMike]

Good topic Professor Mark. Interesting however how price of Televisions has dramatically decreased over last decade.

[@samaantree]

And cost of microwaves for that matter. Economies of scales is also a huge factor though lol.

[@AverageBros]

Wristwatches are not a new technology that will get exponentially cheaper to produce as microchips shrink and become more powerful for less. Also, consider the price disparity between newer upstart value focused brands and legacy brand pricing for similarly spec'd products.

[@TennesseeMike]

@@AverageBros Great point. I do wonder however if technology (especially robotics) could eventually have an impact on watch industry and pricing.

[@AverageBros]

@@TennesseeMike It already has, but the economies of scale still apply. Seiko is vertically integrated, they have to pay engineers to produce, maintain, and upgrade any automations and don't have the luxury of just ordering a finished goods or semi-finished components without taking on the associated overhead. They have to produce/sell more to get back the ROI. Also, remember that the majority of Seiko's sales are B2B and not direct-to-consumer, so their wholesale margins are much lower than a full retail sale.

[@L233233]

@@AverageBros Vertically integration is usually done to DECREASE costs, not increase them. I always find that argument strange that somehow, in the watch business, it's supposed to be the other way round. Yes, some luxury watch brands that produce everything in-house because it's part of their luxury image incur higher costs but at the level of mass production that Seiko is at? Being vertically integrated is a massive cost saver. If it wasn't, they wouldn't do it.

[@ThecrosseyedTexan]

I just picked up my first Seiko sur 525p1 Sapphire crystal decent movement seems like a good value to me MSRP was 250 I picked it up for about 180

[@Mystery_Man84]

Seiko can keep their heritage and their worldwide distributions😂. Their problem is they think they’re Rolex and they’re just not.

[@thegorn]

Exactly. They are full of themselves. some cool retro designs but Omega or Rolex - they are not.

[@Ballahooligan1]

Yep. A few more years of over pricing and dodgy QC and they'll have handed over 'heritage' status to the likes of San Martin.

[@islandwatch]

Well, I don't think they "think" they are Rolex. But I do think they "feel their own" responsibility to be innovative.

[@Mystery_Man84]

@@islandwatch well then they keep their “innovations” because nobody wants to pay “top dollar” for those entry level watches

[@GunGuy258]

Greed. There, no need to watch the video now.

[@george-florinconstantin4141]

I should start by stating that I am convinced Seikos are unacceptably expensive right now. With that out of the way, let me explain, price-tier by price-tier: 1. 100-150 USD - OG Seiko 5 territory; Lorus and Pulsar automatics are better built with the same movement (Y626). INVICTA automatic is superior in every way at this price point. 2. 150-300 USD (DressKX, Seiko field watches teritory): Invicta is still better, Orient as well (Mako,Kamasu, Baby Triton, Kanno, Bambino, Defender), multiple Microbrands are immensely superior (Depth Charge, Cestrian), Citizen beats it in every category (Promaster, Urban Mecha, Tsuyosa Gen.1, every single Eco-drive model), even a few Swiss Made brands (Candino, Festina, Claude Bernard, all with ETA movements); 3. 400-700 USD: oh, this is where Seiko gets absolutely massacred. Glycine, Bulova, Doxa, Candino, TIssot (and many more Swiss brands), OrientStar, Tsuyosa Gen. 2, so many more Citizens, superb micro-brands like Venezianico and Phoibos, Erebus and even Islander (even though it doesn't sell in Europe, which sucks); 4. 800 USD and above: the SARB costing 1000 USD right now would be an absolute, unjustified cash-grab, just like the new "SNXS" is an unjustified cash-grab and an insult against decades-old fans of the brand and especially of the OG 5, which I am the proud owner of one (SNK381). And I also have a Chronograph Titanium 7T92-0EV0 from 2005, so I think I qualify as a fan of the brand. If I were to make a top 20 list of MAINSTREAM watches at 800-1000 USD, Seiko would not be on it. It's not inflation. That is bullshit. It's greed. Inflation means prices grow overall on a certain market or the entire economy. But when prices remain unchanged for Orient, Invicta, Candino, Citizen, Wenger, Nautica, Atlantic, Certina, Oris, but increase for Seiko (+ Lorus and Pulsar), that is not inflation, that is PURE GREED, like Casio is doing with the Casiotron, the Metal Gshocks or with the "Vintage/Edgy" collection. Sorry, Mark, this video is bullshit and it seems to me not even you are convinced of what you are saying. This looks like Disney shills trying to jusify The Acolyte's gigantic budget and support it's abismally stupid script vs. the fans negative reviews (and I am a huge fan of Star Wars, just as I am a huge fan of Seiko and I am seeing them both bein dragged down by greed). Disappointing.

[@hidecki]

GOOD GUY Seiko got so expensive so we can stop buying them and start appreciating CITIZEN more

[@Matthias-v7b]

The differences between the old 62MAS and the new reissues is Seiko in a nutshell. Slightly better made, but way more expensive. Try to compare the old SNE107 with new solar divers with similar specifications. Todays bang for your buck divers comes from Citizen..

[@arvindkalipersad161]

Marc, thank you for putting this video out, not only as a Seiko AD, but a microbrand owner. An aunbiased and factual perspective, which seems to be lacking these days. I'd like to add another comparison, if I may. The Seiko SKX173/175 USDM variants ran for (IIRC from my price tag) 425-450 USD. Their true replacement, the Seiko Turtle (777/779 etc.) MSRP's for 495. So that's a 45 USD price bump, which is entirely more than reasonable for inflation and other factors. To me, "enthusiasts" assumed that sub-100 Seiko 5 pricing was set by Seiko themselves, when in fact it was set due to deep discounts through the grey market! Seiko never priced any Seiko 5's at sub-160 USD. Lastly, to me, alot of other "youtubers" have overblown a non-existent issue about pricing, when in fact, they are comparing discounted 20 yr old grey market pricing to current day! The community seems to have just regurgitated that, without anyone really digging into the facts. It begs the question then - how biased are some of those "other youtubers", who may or may not benefit from price increase claims?

[@CatalinEnache1502]

I got my Pagani gmt with nh34 for 80 bucks. Sapphire glass. Better bracelet. Why would I pay 500 for a Seiko with hardlex glass????

[@N7492]

Steeldive 1970. Seiko NH 35, ceramic bezel, stainless steel bracelet and case, coated sapphire crystal. < $60 from Ali Express. Seiko SRPF03, almost identical to the Steeldive, but with a Hardlex (tempered glass?) crystal, aluminum bezel, but iso 6425 certified. $375 from Amazon. Is the Seiko 6.5 times better than the Steeldive? Doubt it. Seiko seems to be hoping they can sell their name. This might work for a while...

[@prwoland3750]

Smart, factual, and as always super interesting and perfectly delivered. Thank you! I would add that the supply chain getting better (in Asia) has lowered the barrier of entry for “microbrands” while Seiko continues to do absolutely everything in house (very Japanese and I love it). I personally value this quest for perfection ( or control freakness).

[@islandwatch]

Thanks so much for checking out the vid

[@timmcdonald5335]

But what about higher end Prospex watches? Let's compare the SBDC197 which is 176000 Yen and the SPB051 in 2018 retailed for 100000 Yen. Similar Specs? This is before grey market. So has inflation caused the price to go that high in 6 years? Let's compare today's Citizen Fujitsubo with similar specs with titanium and compare to the Shogun. Citizen 132,000 Yen. Shogun is 198000 Yen. If inflation is 23% over 6 years then the Seiko SBDC197 should be 123000 not 176000 Yen. Maybe some improvements in the 2024 watch but some say the older movements are better. One reason also is Bic Camera in Japan is not discounting these Seiko like it used to. You can get the Fujitsubo at Bic Camera today for 83000 Yen and the Shogun for 180000 Yen. This is more than double the price for a similar watch with 5 year Citizen warranty. Also there has been minimal inflation in Japan for the last 30 years. So for higher end Prospex I do not agree. Seiko prices have gone up at least 30% and IMO this must be because it has changed its distribution strategy to go up market by opening boutique stores all around the world so it's costs have increased.

[@marcob.7801]

EVERYONE (all retailers) are greedy basta..s! Anyone or any COMPANY can give a MSRP out of their respective arses! We are NOT getting the appropriate amount of quality! Price to Value in everything, including watches has gone down brother!

[@alexsystems2001]

I would never buy another Seiko again. They aren’t very high tech with their movements. I had an SKX007 and an original alpinist. Between them not keeping time very well, meaning they would be accurate within about 15 seconds a day, they weren’t anti magnetic, I work repairing automated processing equipment, sometimes strong magnets are used, sometimes I have to hold these strong magnets. I’d end my shift with my watch an hour fast. I ended up having to buy a demagnetizer and I’d use it probably a couple times a week. As someone who relies on my watch for writing in log books and such it needs to be reliability and reasonably accurate. For the money seiko is charging for many of its nicer watches with the same problems I’d rather look elsewhere. How do you not incorporate antimagnetism into a modern watch? It’s not even using additional components, it’s replacing an existing component with something anti magnetic, if you can’t do that for those prices sorry not interested.

[@blakslee720]

I get the price issue, really. But as time goes on, I find myself thinking less about it and more about “do I like the watch/do I want what it offers.” Form example, I recently bought a Marathon arctic GSAR. The bracelet blows and the clasp is stamped. My spb213 and San Martin sn0109 bracelets are so so so much nicer for 50-80% less money. But I bought each of them cause that’s what I wanted/needed, I didn’t really cross shop looking for specs or value. Now, I want an spb239, but I already have a 62 mas, so I’ll probably get an spb240 instead. Or maybe I’ll delay that because Xeric makes amazing looking pieces for similar prices to the Seiko MM200. But I’ll still get an MM200 at some point, cause they’re cool, and I want one. First world problems, I do have enough financial stability to buy multiple watches. I’m sure there are people out there who can only afford one and agonize over things I don’t care about, cause I’ll just buy another watch instead.

[@eg7344]

Seiko thinks their brand name and reputation carries more weight than it actually does. They’re charging $400-$900 for watches with basic 4R3X movements, hardlex crystal, and tired designs. I’d much rather spend about half that price on a microbrand with a sapphire crystal, the same NH3X movement (or even a superior Miyota 9000 or Swiss movement) with a much more creative design.

[@behonestwithyourself3718]

The problem with currency devaluation is wages are the the last to increase it seems. The average worker is always one step behind.

[@vincentferreira1135]

I think their MSRPs are absolutely ridiculous. Theyre asking $1,000+ for watches that STILL have misaligned bezels in many cases. I still love Seiko, but I never pay retail. You should never pay retail for any Seiko. If you can get the watch you want for less than MSRP and you feel it’s a fair price, I always recommend doing it.

[@Bierkameel]

Prices go up, quality goes down with Seiko. I bought pretty expensive SBBN051 and everything was misaligned on that thing, I'm done with Seiko.

[@johnnytifosi]

The only convincing argument for the huge price hikes is the elimination of the gray market. Can someone explain what exactly happened? Have Seiko disappeared from the well known third party sellers? CW is still carrying Seiko but prices have doubled since 5-6 years ago, so something still doesn't add up.

[@zosothezephead837]

The thing that sticks in my throat is the ridiculous inflated prices of the Alpinist. I bought mine years ago for less than £300 - Seiko are milking that model for all it's worth as if it's a Moonwatch.

[@islandwatch]

That's point 1 I made.

[@BlagoP]

But he's the kicker about Seiko, the watch is NOT EVEN MADE IN JAPAN! It's not even an apples to apples comparison. You can get a SWISS MADE watch for the same price or even cheaper than a comparable Chinese made Seiko.

[@paulbonaventura4969]

Simple: Inflation + Seiko Overhead + Distribution costs + Marketing costs + Sales commissions +Margin requirements for corporate + Retailers minimum margin expectation + Retail returns + Retailer advertising allowance. Pagani/Steeldive/SanMartin: Overhead+ distribution = lower cost Now, the problem is that Seiko core customer is a "value oriented" customer , so if you have these micro/Chinese brands they will take that over. Just on copying classic and new swiss designs alone and good price, they win vs Seiko "japanese" designs which dont' always work.

[@SamLed1111]

Good points but I disagree. Seiko QC has declined while prices have gone up. You can blame inflation, etc but I am not buying it. The fact is unfortunately the consumer is buying more smart watches which cuts demamd for Seiko watches. So Seiko is cutting costs (and therefore using less quality (cheaper) materials used as well as cutting QC measures.

[@BAF605]

That all makes sense but you shot yourself in the foot by saying what a Sarb 033/035 could be had for not so long ago. There were many other gems too. Some of the deals that can be had on Orient (Kamasu>$200) and Citiizen(New model Promaster "lefty">$300) watches also make Seiko watches look relatively expensive. I'll still buy a Seiko at the right price and here in UK ADs regularly cut prices sharply on some models. That's the time to buy.

[@Dee_Just_Dee]

Wow, does this just bewilder me. I just recently bought an Invicta Pro Diver as baby's first automatic watch, heh. Up until now I had only worn quartz watches. So... Seiko NH35 movement, pretty good right? Well, I do feel bad about getting this donkey of a watch rather than paying just a few bucks more for a proper if basic Seiko 5. And that's the thing. You can still buy and love a basic Seiko built on say the SNK357 movement for like two hundred bucks. While prices go up, thankfully those of us with modest means can just make do with less. A very basic Seiko is still a lovely watch. Just my perspective as a buyer with very little money to spend. 6:25 It tickles the heck out of me to hear you talking about losing track of time. Eh? EH? 😏