Why the DCEU Failed

[@shaynepleaseshutup]

Hey guys, I’ve been receiving a lot of comments asking me to make a video on “why the MCU failed” and I already kind of did. This video, “Marvel’s Never Ending Identity Crisis” discusses the narrative issue a lot of MCU movies have, in particular with their final acts: kzbin.info/www/bejne/habbc6Wqo6p1i9U&ab_channel=Shayne%2CPleaseShutUp And this video, “Bigger Isn’t Always Better… and The Art of Narrative De-Escalation” touches briefly on Marvel’s oversaturation of the genre as well as their constant belittling of prior movie threats: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gl6scnptrqidgK8&ab_channel=Shayne%2CPleaseShutUp These are more about writing rather than the drama behind the scenes but if it interests any of you, you should definitely check it out Thanks for all the love and support, yall are the best.

[@MutantsInDisguise]

Captain Marvel was created and owned by Fawcett, and DC took him from them.

[@thethinkingcatakaneonormie3527]

Really you should do a deep dive in to Snyder and Ayn Rand as it's the clearest Reason why he doesn't understand super heroism because Objectivism sees selfless behaviour as Alien.

[@robkrol2137]

What makes this more frustrating is that WB did do a Shared Universe back in the 90s-Early 2000's really well. The DCAU was a shared universe of DC Cartoons that began with Batman: The Animated Series and ended with Justice League: Unlimited. It was widely praised and still a favorite of many fans. They absolutely can do good DC Shared Universes, they just chose not to. . .

[@kingvagar]

They had a blueprint made by great architects & engineers and WB still build a crappy product in comparison, heck their new animated movies had good elements that they also did not incorporated in the live action flicks... which is mind-boggling 🤦🏽‍♂

[@A1stardan]

in my eyes as a fan DACU made me fall in love with these characters, and DCAU { the timmverse} > any superhero content put after that

[@riopato2009]

The DCAU was a completely different studio. Even DC Animation that's been making the direct to dvd animated movies are a completely different company. It's the WB studios that wrecked the launch of the live action franchise. The CW studio has more successes with the live action TV series and the HBO Max studio has made some really good content for DC fans. Even Netflix came out with a few adaptations worthy of DC fans viewership.

[@ItsTheRemixaa]

​@riopato2009 which is sad as CW shows arent... the best...

[@captainjakemerica4579]

The approach of a universe is quite different between Bruce Timm and Eric Radomski and Zack Snyder I could tell when discussing this with animator and episode director Kevin Altieri I mentioned Snyder and his Justice League movie and he said that the two of you I previously names just wanted to tell dang good stories first

[@anderurteaga3707]

Let’s be honest, before the reboot, this was the state of things: - Ben Affleck turned 50, started a new company and grew tired of superhero films. - Ezra Miller turned up to be a mess of a human being. - The whole Ray Fisher case. - The literal Amber Heard case. - The release of Aquaman and Shazam, two films with a different tone but located in the same universe. - The failure of the first Suicide Squad movie. - The problematic release of the second Suicide Squad movie, which failed in theaters but succeded in HBO Max due to the pandemic and the decision to release it in the plataform at the same time. - An immense amount of cancelled proyects. - The Flash being constantly edited depending on the current path. - Wonder Woman 1984 having nothing to do with the canon of the DCEU, when she was supoosed to stay away from humanity till BvS, not to mention that time the world almost went into war because of a loser Trump-esque entrepreneur with superpowers but no one remembers that. - Zack Snyder flipped the page and was already doing his own projects. - The late production and content of Black Adam, in which Amanda Waller’s career seems to be alright after Peacemaker’s finale and she works with the Justice League, and there’s also the fact that the movie introduced a team that somehow was present in the DCEU from day one (despite MOS stating that no human has ever seen powers like Clark Kent’s), and Dwayne Johnson being more concerned with fighting Superman rather than his true archenemy Shazam. - Box Office failure after box office failure, with the exception of Joker and The Batman, while dealing with expensive actors. I can see the reasoning behind the reboot, this universe was cursed.

[@thezplayer3002]

unfortunately toxic snyder fans still can't except the truth

[@malikplayman3520]

This is a good summary. I think a lot of peoples and fans know that but wanted just before a very needed reboot, a last movie for a very good superman and a very good batman. After ten years, a reboot is natural. But gunn , brought back cavill and gave us false hope. He should have said since the beginning that cavil was not superman anymore. He made the reboot more painfull than it was already.

[@anderurteaga3707]

@@malikplayman3520 Didn't Cavill shoot the cameo in september 25th as part of an agreement without contract, while Gunn and Peter Safran just became effective chairmen of DC Studios in november 1st?

[@thezplayer3002]

@@malikplayman3520 henry was brought back before james gunn was in charge

[@LuisSanchez-by7mh]

Yup the DCEU was doomed to fail I kinda blame the studio, Snyder, Goyer, Hamada, Terrio, and Johns for the way DC is and became.

[@Bingo_the_Pug]

Seeing the Justice Society in Black Adam was particularly baffling, because the whole time I was thinking “where have these guys been all this time??” Obviously there’s A LOT going on behind the scenes that we never witness (in Suicide Squad 2 when Waller says that Bloodsport put Superman in the hospital with a Kryptonite bullet, I also said “when the hell did THAT happen????”)

[@asdaligadumiani2326]

Which even more confusing, like Superman can see the flash super speed movements and counter it perfectly... But Superman cant dodge one kryptonite bullet???

[@hothotheat3000]

Why TF did she send the Unalive Yourself Squad when she could’ve sent Doctor Fate?

[@jonathancampbell5231]

@@asdaligadumiani2326 I mean, that's really just a problem with Superman in general. Most versions of Superman are struggling with common thugs who happen to have kryptonite or superpowers one minute, then travelling across the universe in a matter of seconds to punch the lights out of a cosmic menace the next.

[@boxtupos7718]

​@@asdaligadumiani2326 I mean Superman just takes bullets, so prolly was surprised when one of those bullets actually hurt. At the same Captain Boomerang can tag the Flash using fucking boomerangs.

[@MegaSpideyman]

​@@hothotheat3000 Suicide Squad.

[@elin111]

DC spent 6 years trying to fix the damage that BvS caused, eventually they had to get the memo that starting over was the only solution.

[@orboakin8074]

I grew up watching the Bruce Timm cartoons as a kid in Nigeria. One thing I will never understand is why DC and WB didn't use the Justice League animated series or the Batman and Superman animated series as inspiration or basis for the live action movies. They were widely popular, even among non-comic readers. Why didn't they use that?!

[@GabyGeorge1996]

Because people have a belief that animation-oh, I’m sorry, “cartoons”-are kiddie fare and nothing else, and we can’t have serious, grown-up adults watching stuff based on kiddie fare, now, can we? /s

[@orboakin8074]

@@GabyGeorge1996 that is really disappointing to know. They had a perfect template but ignored it.

[@eq1373]

I agree

[@illseeyaonthedarksideofthemoon]

Did you hear how Snyder talked about comics? No way they are adapting that kind of long story format...

[@A1stardan]

@@GabyGeorge1996 If only they watched it with open mind, they would have known DCAU shows lke BTAS, JLU actually dealt with many philosophical issues, and characters and still made them very interesting and entertaining that many fall in love with, despite having little to no knowledge about them prior to this, All of this and more they managed to achieve in episodes of 20-25 mins each.

[@Blondie472]

The Death Of Superman was an Ace In The Hole. It was used in comics to revive the waning popularity of Superman. DCEU used it in the second hand.

[@BillBlazejowski]

Not sure if you've ever read that whole run but i definitely wouldn't consider it good.

[@ravenouspuncher]

@@BillBlazejowski They literally handpicked divisive niche stories. No wonder dceu was a shiteshow

[@BrandonNielsen87]

@@BillBlazejowski I read Death of Superman. It's almost worst than anything Zack Snyder made for DC. It's often stupid stuff that didn't make sense, and I guess, the readers were supposed to gloss over those at the time. Superman stories were much better in 90's Superman Animated Series.

[@BillBlazejowski]

@@BrandonNielsen87 I think Snyder tried to do his own take on the death of superman and for some it worked or didn't, I don't think it's any worse than the actual comics though as they were extremely stupid. And yes I think Superman TAS is maybe the best take on the character.

[@TheJoker-rs8wy]

@@BillBlazejowski I think the stupidity comes from killing superman off in the second film of the cinematic universe. Supermans death should be monumental and emotional but here he dies before even becoming the traditional superman. And yeah the plan was to bring him back but after a fake out the death of the character kinda loses its meaning a bit

[@rudrapatel285]

Basically Snyder on batman killing: Batman: *Pushes bad guy off a building*, "I didn't kill him the gravity did"

[@WileyGuy]

Might as well have made him Thomas Wayne instead

[@JosephHandibode]

stop reeves superman murdered depowered zod. tbrew him to his death. donners cut erase the murder years later but still. tim burton murdered villians from get go. no complains?

[@koushikraja331]

Just remember, WB were asking how will superman be able to return back to krypton after him and the military used the rocketship to create a wormhole to send the other kryptonians back to the phantom zone. David Goyer and the writers had to remind them that not only was the pod a baby sized pod, but krypton blew up in the beginning of the movie. Considering this is the level of idiocy the creators were dealing with in 2013 itself, it is a miracle the universe lasted this long.

[@autobotproductions1244]

That’s… phenomenally dumb

[@sipalingindonesia]

the WB executives don't understand dc comic.they just thought that they have a cow to milk,they thought that just because they have a comic franchise,they will get the same success as disney was with MCU. how wrong they were😂

[@TheEmeraldWeirdo]

I'm sorry, what? WARNER BROS, who have owned DC Comic wholesale since 1990... weren't aware that KRYPTON BLOWS UP. One of the defining points of Superman's origin story, one that EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT thanks to pop-cultural osmosis... and they DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT IT. I never thought the term "Epic Fail" could ever be described as a major understatement, but WB proved me wrong... is it any wonder that I keep losing respect for them?

[@hettfield]

I saw an interview with the costume designer for Man of Steel. They were asked if they took inspiration for Superman's costume from the New 52. The designer's response was complete ignorance about the comics and what Supes' costume was at the time of making Man of Steel.

[@GabyGeorge1996]

@@hettfield good fucking lord. How can people be so stupid?!

[@herbertsherbert2142]

I feel like it failed because they rushed things to catch up with the MCU. They rushed the justice League movie, without enough build up to the movie because they hadn't released enough solo super hero movies first. I know rushing things to play catch up with the MCU wasn't the only cause of their failure but I think it was a big contributing factor

[@backbeatben]

fr they were just trying to make a money grab and failed to actually tell a story

[@mrrobluxo2369]

When a justice league film flopped at the box office that should’ve been a clear cut indication to reboot

[@ultimateslinger9857]

Better late than never I guess

[@shomarigwad2151]

you are right! but i think the problem if we can call it that way is aquaman which comes out after the failure of JL and which is a hit at the box office with 1.1B$ and it has restarted the machine with the other films dceu who hopes to do as much as this film and who is the first in the DCEU to cross the $1 billion mark

[@dimitrescu182]

Aquaman making a billion dollars stopped them from rebooting.

[@MrREAPERsz]

That shouldn't have been made in the first place. There was no hype for Justice League to begin with.

[@riopato2009]

Justice League wasn't Snyder's movie, at least the movie he wanted to make. The studio took advantage of his daughter's death as a way back stab him and butchered the theattrical release.

[@darrenhood4033]

Iron Man made a mint at the box office considering the property was not well known outside comic book fans. Iron Man was a huge gamble for Marvel Studios and Paramount Pictures. It didn't make a billion dollars, but no one expected it to make the money it did. Merchandise sales were also spectacular. Reviews for it were also spectacular for a first outing of a comic book film featuring a B-list superhero. Justice League was doomed to fail because it was following Batman v Superman which bombed at the box office. It had the highest drop off rate for any superhero film, and the opening in November was seen as a death knell, by audiences who knew how bad something had to be if it couldn't compete with the summer blockbusters.

[@merphul]

Snyder fans like to talk about how amazing MoS was... MoS only made about 100 million more at the box office than Iron Man. Superman, a character that is so ubiquitous that everyone's grandma knows who Superman is, only beat the first Iron Man film by 100 mill. At that point superhero movies were really heating up and given the strength of Superman among general audiences it should have made twice what Iron Man did.

[@BobPantsSpongeSquare97]

​@@merphul Man of Steel had a budget of at least 225m and literally at the time there hadn't been a Superman film in forever and he is a very popular character. In my mind it should've been as successful as Spiderman Homecoming and made at least 800m to 900m as opposed to 668m

[@brandonlyon730]

Not to mention that came out not to long after the Civil War event in comics where Ironman was at his most controversial state.

[@shaunjimbangan1166]

​@@merphul to be fair at the time, the take that Superman was a boring character was pretty popular

[@leirbag1595]

The thought of Iron Man being a B-list superhero is kind of wild after his role in the MCU

[@SonicHedgehog1991]

Snyder: Batman didn't kill those guys, the box he threw did. ah yes, the murderer didn't kill the victim, the weapon did.

[@FrancistheBrave]

Ikr lol

[@kentwestmoreland419]

@edittzz4175 You mean Democrat. They say the gun kills and the shooter is a victim.

[@Hard_Boiled_Entertainment]

I'd love to see you similarly chid the Arkham games developers for giving the same kinds of arguments. You can't say with a straight face Batman doesn't kill goons in those games.

[@lightdarksoul2097]

​@@Hard_Boiled_EntertainmentI can since detective vision says unconscious no matter what you say the game is saying they are alive plain and simple

[@Hard_Boiled_Entertainment]

@@lightdarksoul2097 Well if detective vision can tell you "unconscious" and you'll believe it, would Zack Snyder saying "They're unconscious" similarly make you believe it? Because that's what he said in his watch-along on Vero shortly before the Snyder Cut was announced.🤔

[@laughslapproductions4690]

*Imagine if they killed off iron man in iron man 2.*

[@doug176]

And then they gather all the infinity stones to bring him back in the avengers

[@wisdomemma9951]

and then thanos showed up

[@doug176]

@@wisdomemma9951 and he just stands there…menacingly

[@billymccrary2246]

That's would be completely gosh darn stupid.

[@Chadcat180]

And thanos kinda forgot

[@kjbeast677]

It’s honestly quite sad really. The groundwork was pretty much already laid out for them with The DCAU, they didn’t even need to try and copy Marvel’s formula. All they had to do was follow the template The DCAU had already set up for them. Or simply had just hired Bruce Timm to be in charge of their live-action cinematic universe

[@dailydevotionals8428]

Exactly Bruce Timm should be in charge

[@sipalingindonesia]

really? the man behind the F**ked bruceXbarbara relationship?

[@soorej91]

@@sipalingindonesia you realise it was a comic book thing right

[@sipalingindonesia]

@@soorej91 eh....what do you mean? bruce timm is still the one behind said storyline, no matter what medium the story took place at.

[@jonathancampbell5231]

@@soorej91 It's not a comic book thing at all. Bruce Timm was the one who first put them together in B:TAS, and he's been the only one who has put them together ever. Bruce and Barbara do NOT have a relationship in the comics, except for ones that took place in the B:TAS universe in the first place.

[@TheLAGopher]

One major correction has to be made to this article. Man of Steel was not created from the ground up to be the corner stone of a shared universe franchise to match the MCU. It was originally concieved as a stand alone reboot of the Superman franchise along the lines of the TDK films by David Goyer, who pitched the idea to Christopher Nolan, who in turn,pitched it to WB brass where it was greenlit and Nolan was made producer. WB had been fighting a legal battle with the estates of Superman creators Jerry Siegal and Joe Shuster, who wanted to take back the ownership rights to the original 1938 Action Comics #1 version of Superman. WB would win that case in the late 2000s,(I think 2009) and keep the rights to Superman but there was a provision that a Superman related live action property can not be out of production for more then five years , or the Shuster and Siegal estates would be awarded huge payouts due to WB not exploiting their ancestors creation. Since Superman Returns had come out in 2006,and Smallville went off the air in 2011, the WB brass jumped on Nolan's pitch of giving Superman the same grounded gritty approach as the TDK series. Nolan would bring on Zack Snyder to direct because Nolan felt he weakness was action and VFX. WB original plan was to do a Justice League film that would have come out in 2009.That film would be the basis of a shared universe. But that film project fell through due the 2008 writers strike. The next idea was to start a shared universe with the Greg Berlanti produced Green Lantern, with The Flash being the followup movie and meeting Green Lantern in the post credits. That would lead to Justice League. Superman and Batman were in a weird place where they could have their own solo films unconnected to the JL universe,but could also have shared universe versions of themselves introduced down the road. This left room for Nolan to complete his TDK trilogy with the Dark Knight Rises, and for his new Superman project (Man of Steel) to be its own thing. When Green Lantern bombed in 2011, its sequel which was expected to debut in 2013, and The Flash movie,set for 2014,were scrapped, with Berlanti going to the CW to develop Arrow and use that show as a jump off point for The Flash tv series and create a shared DC universe on tv. Man of Steel had started filming in the summer of 2011as start of a solo Superman trilogy as Batman Begins satrted the TDK series. In 2012, we had The Avengers, and Nolan's run with Batman was over with the Dark Knight Rises. WB's only option with the failure of Green Lantern was to hope Man of Steel was successful and use its sequel as the foundation of a shared universe. Imagine if WB had decided that the followup film to The Dark Knight was a crossover film with Superman Returns where the events of Batman Begins and TDK had happened while he was away in space. The plot of the story would center around Superman trying to bring Batman (branded an outlaw at the end of TDK) To Justice and Batman forced to massively upgrade his suit and weapons and tactics, to hold his own against Superman. Superman in Man of Steel was supposed to be a deconstruction of the character. You don't do that if you are setting up a long term franchise where that character is the face of that franchise.

[@ravenouspuncher]

Agreed. Loved every bit . You are absolutely right. MOS was meant to be a nolan like trilogy.

[@kevthepoet]

Wow. That was alot. Kinda feels wasted in a KZbin comment, should be a blog or a college paper or something lol

[@davidw.2791]

@@kevthepoet And leave videos like this one unopposed?

[@kevthepoet]

@@davidw.2791 unopposed? Its a KZbin video, not the Borg or the Nazis, we'll all survive if this went unopposed! 🤣 And it's a pointless point anyway, Man of Steel may not have been made to be the foundation of a universe but the main points of this video are accurate - Snyder didn't rep the characters, the execs kept course correcting and the DCEU was shit from the beginning.

[@_M....]

this is the accurate history of the matter. although they still made a mistake with who they chose to head up MoS.

[@dailydevotionals8428]

So clear that Snyder doesn't like these characters. He likes their powers

[@_M....]

exactly. and his mindless cult is the same way.

[@andrewvasquez7872]

Snyder also doesnt like storytelling he likes visually directing. His films are beautiful. But his storytelling is shit. He seemingly hasnt been able to direct a film under 3-4 hours since 300, with Watchmen being over 3 hours and the "Snyder cut" of JL being what 4 hours?

[@SonicMegaKing]

It's what I tell all Snyder fans, but it's like in one ear, out the other.

[@charlespuruncajas9663]

Snyder wants to show the characters like Gods living on Earth instead of just cheap comedians

[@eugeneibeh7638]

​@@charlespuruncajas9663 💯

[@CaptainPikeachu]

The studio being utterly reactionary is really the true downfall. Marvel understood that change had to be subtle and gradual, built into the stories organically, not smashed in with a sledge hammer or running off the tracks completely and doing a U-turn. It’s not as if Marvel themselves haven’t made changes over the years to fix missteps, but they have always understood not doing a total drastic 180, they make little changes that grow into the big changes over the years. Marvel’s patience is truly what makes them stand out from other studios. That patience has consistently paid off and still does to this day. No cinematic universe is gonna be perfect, but the studios that thrive are the ones who don’t rush into everything and react drastically at every little bit of reception and critique. The DCEU changing its mind constantly with no patience to see anything through ultimately brought about its downfall, and we see this with other studios too. Marvel is the epitome of slow and steady wins the race.

[@InhabitantOfOddworld]

I agree. Marvel set up post-credits as a means of teasing their plans without outright committing to them. If Iron Man performed poorly, nothing too great would be lost by Nick Fury showing up hinting at the Avengers. It would just go down in history as a "what if?", a bit like Nick Cage's Superman or Sam Raimi's Spider-Man 4. WB was just really desperate to follow the MCU money, especially after Phase 1. They wanted a shared universe from the Nolan trilogy, Nolan said no. They wanted a shared universe out of GL, but it bombed. Man of Steel was meant as a standalone trilogy, the Superman version of Nolan's Batman trilogy, but WB forced it into a start of the DCEU and allowed Snyder to make it an adaptation of Returns, a story that occurs in the late timeline of the DC universe, not the start of one. It never made sense. May as well have said fuck it and used Batman Beyond.

[@kennethmiller9346]

Snyder is about shock and awe not about character. Even in the so called bad MCU movie they are all good characters.

[@CaptainPikeachu]

Marvel understood something very important, that the central characters of the story had to work, even if the general story itself didn’t. Because if the characters can work, then people will follow, even if the story may not work out well because people love that character. The DCEU did not take its time building up their central characters. They were plot over characters and that never works out.

[@jbbrolic]

I would say recent MCU movies (from say 2018 on) have been as rife with character assassination and disrespect for the characters as the snyderverse. (This is not a defense of the snyderverse, I think they are the worst thing that could have possibly happened to public perception of these legendary characters.)

[@Chadcat180]

Snyder ruined DC reputation

[@Sizdothyx]

... Let's not go that far. Eternals and Ant-Man Quantumania are definitely not filled with "good characters"

[@Chadcat180]

@@Sizdothyx eternals legit was a snyder movie .bland characters with no actual character development anda embarssing story

[@O.D25]

You know, I realised: If Batman does kill, how is the Joker still alive? Like that would be his first target.

[@anubusx]

I agree it makes no sense.

[@Teatime7771]

With the Joker and Harley relationship, that is supposed to be abusive, it was made to be less offensive but not accurate as it is in Batman the animated series. Joker threw Harley out a window once in the animated series. In the movie they act like Bonnie and Clyde. That is so wrong.

[@christiandauz3742]

Maybe they could have gone for the middle Have the abuse mostly implied but not the main focus of the toxic relationship

[@ethankillion786]

I think BVS was where it went wrong but was still redeemable, but Justice League went ahead and put it in the coffin

[@alvintivetyarthur]

I agree and liked most of them!

[@Accountnolongerinuse]

The problem wasn’t bvs as such. It was that MoS (a movie I believe is exceptional) was poorly received and the majority of people didn’t enjoy it. Then 3 years later we have bvs a movie that suffered both studio interference and bad reception doubled down on the general audiences opinion of the dceu. 2016 suicide squad did even more damage because that movie was abysmal. By that time you’d only had 3 movies in 3 years all of which were not popular setting the tone for the future movies. Wonder Woman was fairly decent and seemed to have a good reception from audiences and dc fans but then the disgusting mess that what was Josstice league was released and that did untold damage. A solo movie being bad is one thing but a movie with the entire JL being that unwatchable is definitely the first strike that killed the DCEU. Then over a year later we get Aquaman which was both good and positively received by the GA but the issue with dceu films is there were huge gaps between all of the movies so their universe was building very slowly and the majority of its films weren’t doing well. Despite Aquaman success this is what I believe truly killed the dceu and that’s when wb started focusing on movies nobody wanted or was interested in. As much as I like Shazam it didn’t gain them the popularity they needed to redeem their cinematic universe. No mention of a superman sequel or a standalone Batman movie. No flash movie yet or green lantern. Cyborg was cancelled. Then we get a Wonder Woman sequel which turned out to be one of the worst dc movies ever made. A birds of pray movie that was also god awful. A soft reboot of the suicide squad which nobody wanted and turned out to be watchable at at best. Then black Adam that was a disaster. With a batgirl movie and blue beetle movie in production because yes??? All these random not related superhero movies made about lesser known characters while their main and most iconic superheroes were left out to dry when the publics view on them had been so negative for years is what went really wrong. Bvs was definitely nowhere NEAR where it all went wrong. Wb had plenty chances to redeem their dceu and they were negligent. Whether you love Snyder or hate him he’s not the reason the dceu is such a mess. IMO be made the best movies in the dceu, but my opinions irrelevant. Fact is Snyder only planned to do 5 movies. His superman movie. His Batman v superman movie. And his 3 JL movies centred around darkseid and steppenwolf. All the standalone Batman movies, other man of steel movies, flash movies, green lantern movies, cyborg movies etc were all there for wb to hire a director and get a script and press go but they didn’t

[@davidw.2791]

@@Accountnolongerinuse Yup. The only “loss” after JL3 would be Batfleck dying but then again Affleck by his own admission was not on board until Snyder clarified that this was a Batman “this close to moral bankruptcy” so he never would have stayed for a RDJ-esque tenure anyways.

[@Accountnolongerinuse]

@@davidw.2791 yea but I believe the Affleck trilogy was planned to take place before the events of JL3 so that and his Batman movies were all he’d planned to do. And after JL3 I don’t think they’d have produced any more, so the loss of Batman would be minimal

[@davidw.2791]

@@Accountnolongerinuse Even with the most optimistic timeline, Affleck only confirmed signed on to do one solo Batman film. I suppose it would be bridging between JL1 and JL2. Where Deathstroke indeed goes Terminator on his ass but neither of them die and instead live to Knightmare another day.

[@hettfield]

I think the two key factors are: 1. Decisions made by WB executives with a lack of vision. 2. Snyder's cynicism and contempt for uplifting superhero stories.

[@billymccrary2246]

Make sense of why the DCEU turn out the way it is.

[@Ramonesaehs]

I agree 💯

[@Chadcat180]

Superman and lois has O chemistry in dceu .if u cant get even that right u are DOA

[@hettfield]

@@Chadcat180 Agreed. We are given no reason as to why they are so in love… except that she thinks he’s a hunk. Very shallow relationship

[@Chadcat180]

@@hettfield we are given no reason why should we even care .dceu had the worst characters unlikable killing machines with no compelling arcs and chemistry .one dimentional characters

[@Immy_Islam786]

It's not that he doesn't understand them. He did a good job with Clark/Superman in MoS. The issue was the movie after. BVS was all style and 0 substance. The tone was never the issue. The Batman is just as dark as any of his DC movies yet Matt Reeves was able to craft a story and film that was beloved by audiences and critics. The creative decisions he made in that one movie set the course and the perception of how the general movie going audiences viewed the DCEU. The Martha scene was a joke. The death of Superman had 0 impact. I realise they wanted to do the opposite of what the MCU and Kevin Fiege are doing, but if they took some things that worked with the MCU, we'd probably have a thriving DCEU. Instead James Gunn is forced to reboot it because the BO returns for these DCEU movies have been abysmal.

[@third.act.countdown]

"No one is having sex or killing each other." Sounds like the perfect man to direct Superman, said the WB board.

[@legomarioboy08]

Indeed. If only we got to see the reaction to Batman getting raped in prison. Where could this go wrong?

[@jonathancampbell5231]

Said Christopher Nolan and David Goyer, who were the actual guys in charge of choosing a director.

[@third.act.countdown]

@@jonathancampbell5231 "recommend" being a more appropriate word. Since Nolan's aesthetic approach was law and order over theatricality for The Batman, I was not the slightest type surprised he "recommended" mister bullet time 9/11 flapper himself, Zack gum chewing Snyder. Have a nice meal, captain.

[@Chuck_EL]

​@@jonathancampbell5231 yeah Nolan Batman fanboys are just as bad DC Snyder fanboys

[@christopherbennett5858]

@@jonathancampbell5231 And one of those guys, Goyer, being the one who turned the tech utopia of Krypton into future Earth because he was bitter that his comic is left forgotten.

[@billyboleson2830]

The harsh truth is that Snyder moved on but his fanbase didn’t

[@l.i.o.n3698]

The snyder fans are just whiny, entitled babies for real.

[@tmac731]

Zach didn’t move on though

[@SuperKhalid95]

Snyder moved on, but he’s still open to continuing his vision if ever asked, same as when they asked him to complete his Snyder Cut.

[@billyboleson2830]

@@SuperKhalid95 I mean yeah of course anyone working at hollywood isnt not going to take up on an offer like that

[@HD_Hates]

Shame ,try harder- we will never support Gunn and his disgusting toilet humour infested universe.

[@otbk22]

Great vid. We need more like this. People have to understand that Snyder doesn’t have the faintest clue about what makes these characters special. We need new blood. Cavil wasn’t the problem he’s just unfortunately collateral damage.

[@Godzilla-tu2cd]

Facts 💯👍🏿

[@Ikennanno]

Really....then why are his movies still gaining traction while others fade into oblivion. Does the Snyder films have flaws...yes.....but still better than most trash that are released today...... People just want a marvel movie......If they so want it.....they should go watch a marvel movie and try to enjoy the mediocre trash they are putting out (and this is coming from a guy that used to loved the MCU with all his heart and is pained to see how such a great franchise was poisoned and turned to what it is now.) marvel characters are extra ordinary human who are dealing with their humanity under their extra ordinary circumstances. DC heroes are basically gods amongst men watching over the mere mortals and saving them sometimes from themselves. Knowing this....I think Snyder portrayed it well...and his movies whether u like it or not will last the test of time.......and it funny that people want Christopher Reeves superman but rejected it when it came out (Superman Returns) and even washed off the memory of it. Richard Dinners superman is very dated and can not exist today...hell you personally will hate it.... That being said.......Snyder understands superman

[@mrrobluxo2369]

@@Ikennanno lmao no those are still made fun of till this day

[@Accountnolongerinuse]

@@Ikennanno 💯

[@StopCallingMeShirley1180]

@@Ikennanno They’re hardly “gaining traction”. Snyder fans are just getting louder and more desperate.

[@MC-zr6gc]

Re: Snyder's excuse for Batman killing, okay...granted....I guess. MY issue with the running those guys over thing, is Superman's response. He basically wagged his finger and gave him a "stern warning". 😕👀👁👁.... a warning? BRO, you just watched him crush dudes with his bat-tank-mobile, and you do is ask him politely to stop it? GTFOH

[@ravenouspuncher]

Yeah. It should have been like superman shows up to arrest batman but batman somehow escapes using advanced lead grenades. Batman was shown to study superman so he could have figured out this fact.

[@bloodlinefilms]

I had never considered that. Thats crazy dumb. Unless superman doesnt care about the lives pf those criminals. Doesnt he put 6 guys through a brick wall at supersonic speed in the desert earlier on in the movie? Maybe that was the (albeit thin) justification for that.

[@boshwa20]

I refuse to believe this Batman killed a bunch of faceless henchman but didn't kill the Joker

[@bloodlinefilms]

@@boshwa20 knocked all his teeth out and left him with some facial scars it seemed like. Dont know who would have stopped him. We know a robin died in that universe. But we dont know if there was more than one. Was it jason? Dick? Tim? Did one of them stop him from finishing the job? Who knows. Bet Snyder has an answer that would make sense until you realize it makes something else sound dumb.

[@boxtupos7718]

​@@bloodlinefilms It's suppose to be Dick Grayson

[@roam980]

Moral of the story, make sure you have a director who has a coherent understanding of the characters they're adaptating and create a film that both tells a compelling story and respects it's source material

[@vincer7824]

Yeah but he did all of that with Watchmen. So it's not like he had no credibility in that dept.

[@boxtupos7718]

​@@vincer7824 Except he didn't, he completely missed the point by giving them super powers; And giving them awesome shots. Alan Moore prolly hates every adaption of his work; But he specifically hated how Rorschach was portrayed in the movie.

[@ginichilders9619]

​@@boxtupos7718 he never watched it so he never said anything. Meanwhile, Dave Gibbons, the actual artist of the book, was supportive and liked it. Complaining about "cool shots" in a movie is not the flex you think it is.

[@boxtupos7718]

@@ginichilders9619 Alan Moore literally said he didn't like how there are people that think Rorschach is cool or is a badass; He stated somewhere along the lines of he doesn't want to be as far away as possible from people that think so. Giving them cool shots glorifies them as being, it makes them awesome and powerful; Moore wanted them to viewed as nothing but violent loving vigilantes. The Watchmen should never be seen as cool, that's the point of the satire.

[@hettfield]

Something that has been said forever.

[@Teatime7771]

Another problem is that he doesn’t put the Humanity into of these characters. He understands the power of these chars and how to make them look cool to his cult fan base but the humility Superman has and the humanity and morality Batman has.

[@ginichilders9619]

Superman literally says "I'm here to help" at the end of Man of Steel and beats himself up over not being able to save the Senate from Lex Luthor's bomb. Is "humility" supposed to be him kissing regular people's feet all the time and apologizing for being so overpowerful?

[@jamesmarno]

Humanity was the most important thing completely absent in both Man Of Steel and Batman V Superman. And it's ironic as I remember when Hans Zimmer was interviewed on a red carpet asking him to sum up what we'll see in 'Man Of Steel' in one word, "Humanity" was his answer. Couldn't have been more wrong as far as I'm concerned.

[@ginichilders9619]

@@jamesmarno so Perry White and Steve Lombard going out of their is way to save Jenny from being crushed at risk to their own lives isn't "humanity"? Colonel Hardy declaring Superman is a person and not humanity's enemy is not "humanity"? I'm thinking you probably didn't even watch it.

[@jamesmarno]

@@ginichilders9619 And that perfectly demonstrates what was wrong with Man Of Steel. You used 2 examples and neither of them showcased Superman's "humanity". You used a moment where 2 other characters showed empathy for another as an example. The Colonel Hardy scene isn't exactly what I'd describe as humanity and I wouldn't describe it as him declaring Superman a person, but it's a fairly nice little moment. There's a bit of emotional weight in there and that's good. What ISN'T a good example of humanity or showing a decent representation of morals in the film is Clark letting his father die. That scene was completely unrelatable and far too dark and grim. When I sat in the theatre and watched my favourite superhero of all time let someone who he cared about die who he could have easily saved, I no longer believed I was watching Superman on screen. Also, Superman and Lois passionately kissing literally seconds after thousands of people lost their lives and the city was destroyed. That was in poor taste and was a total misfire tonally. Also Superman destroying a satellite by blowing it up really close to the general and a soldier driving by. That was unreasonable behaviour and given how much destruction had just happened in Metropolis, he could have acted a lot less hostile. Those are a few examples off the top of my head. But what I'm also referring to when I say humanity is about the actual characterisation of Clark/Superman in both Man Of Steel and BVS. He isn't really represented as a person. He's wasn't a relatable character and they barely wrote in anything remotely resembling a personality. And yeh, I watched it first day of release. Twice more in theatres. Then bought it on DVD. I know the film pretty well.

[@ginichilders9619]

@@jamesmarno Clark couldn't save Jonathan, no matter how much you say he could have. Meanwhile, Christopher Reeve Superman literally wants to quit after less than 1 years of heroism (even saying "after every thing I done for them?") to bone Lois and only gets back in because of Zod. And then he wiped her memories and left her and their child for 5 years. I'd say that's worse than a "glad to be alive kiss" after a big climactic battle. You clearly can't seem to empathize with people who are introverted and withdrawn due to pain and depression. That shit is why men struggle to deal with their mental health. A person's personality is not defined by whether they like baseball and apple pie. MoS Clark even saved people all on his own even before meeting Space Papa. He cares for humanity, he just doesn't go public about it because unfortunately, like Agent K put it so perfectly, people are dumb panicky animals and the reveal of aliens does tear the world apart.

[@MattBuford-n4i]

Imagine if they killed off iron man in iron man 2.. The harsh truth is that Snyder moved on but his fanbase didn’t.

[@Willact]

BVS is exactly where things went wrong.

[@GD-gi7xn]

I think it was more so WB trying to push forward a Justice League movie too early, which is why BvS felt so bloated. The extended cut of the film does a great job of making it all work though, and it’s actually one of my favorite superhero films now because of the added context missing from the theatrical release. It’s well worth a watch if you haven’t seen it.

[@sipalingindonesia]

but justice league is the one that actually "destroyed" DCEU. even after BvS,people was still gonna give the benefit of doubt to DCEU.

[@manuelpatino7863]

It went wrong from the beginning. Man of Steel is just as trash as Batman V Superman 😂

[@TheJoker-rs8wy]

@@GD-gi7xn Even with the extended cut its not a very good film andit just craps all over two iconic characters

[@jawarafrazer8530]

​@@TheJoker-rs8wy your opinion which I accept but disagree with.

[@Gantaipao]

The problem with Zack and his verse was the moment we knew he choose a retired Batman who has been in service for 20 years already to kick start a Universe which was already complete NO. Then comes he choose all the cast directly with him deciding everything who is who... That was also a Biggest problem for DCEU.

[@biguy617]

Snyder is like a cult leader. All of his fans defend his DC movies the same way. The say it is more realistic. They say it is ok for Superman to break necks in public, it is realistic for Jonathan Kent to say “I don’t know maybe” to tell young Clark that he shouldn’t have saved a bus full of classmates and Clark lets his father die saving a dog in a hurricane. Clark had no chemistry with Lois. The movie wasn’t good.

[@biguy617]

Snyder turns Batman into a gun nut. It isn’t that he kills that is the problem. It is that he kills like the punisher that is the problem.

[@christiandauz3742]

Bale's Batman let Ra die in the first movie

[@rape_andrew_tate]

And Gunn's batman will be 45+ with the 4th robin 😂

[@TevyaSmolka]

I put the blame more on the suits from wb themselves who miss manage this universe from the very beginning.

[@lightdarksoul2097]

Ehh I blame both the suits and the directors as they tended to buy into their own visions above any continuity

[@TevyaSmolka]

@@lightdarksoul2097 you are not entirely wrong about that but remember technically speaking the directors themselves really got screwed over by the company itself and really didn't get to tell there stories.

[@Erasureeraser]

Snyder and his writers made some fans angry by the interpretation of Batman in BvS in making Batman look like a Punisher terrorist type character, surely that's outside WB's control since Snyder has been defending that choice for many years. So yeah, the WB had it's own faults, Snyder too in misunderstanding the character eventhough he improved that significantly in JL

[@TevyaSmolka]

@@Erasureeraser true and you're right about that.

[@ricniks4619]

The moment Zack Snyder said "I had a buddy who tried getting me into "normal" comic books, but I was like no one is having sex or killing each other. this isn't really doing it for me' I was a little broken, that way. So when Watchmen came along, this is more my scene" WB's should have never let him make the DCEU because it's obvious this man was never interested in making faithful adaptations he was more interested in making edge lord fanfiction.

[@Asvpphenny]

It all started when Green Lantern flopped because they wanted it to originally be the forefront of the shared universe

[@GabyGeorge1996]

Maybe they shouldn’t have started out with a cosmic story. Christ, GLTAS did the GL mythos more Justice than that movie did

[@LicoriceLain]

@@GabyGeorge1996 What? You don't like immediately jumping to "parallax" instead of starting with something smaller scale?

[@lucascoval828]

Thank you for pointing out that Snyder had no idea what he was talking about or doing with the characters.

[@DanBharry]

somethings to note that were overlooked in the video: -Man of Steel was not supposed to be the franchise starter for the DCEU. it was originally just a superman reboot, in fact that is all it was when it was released in cinemas. it was at that following comic con when it was retroactively made the beginning of the dceu with the announcement of BvS. - Suicide Squad was not the first film to be overly edited by the studio. that was BvS which was originally a 3 hour movie, due to it having to function as a man of steel sequel, an introduction to batman, and the set up for the Justice League movie, which began principal photography a couple weeks after BvS released in cinemas.. fearing a loss in revenue due to less showtimes (lol), and the cuts R rating (which was due to CGI Blood), the studio mandated a shorter cut of the movie. This resulted in a bungled 2h 30 min theater cut that omitted key narrative details. in fact, if you go on HBO Max right now, you cannot even find the theatrical cut for viewing, only the director's cut. While it was better received by most, it was too little too late.

[@cedarparkrangerssc6296]

thats true MOS feels more like a sci fi movie than a typical comic book movie

[@riopato2009]

Same has been said about the Hulk with Ed Norton. Oddly I don't think the Bana Hulk is part of the MCEU but the characters are.

[@robertban871]

yeah i think Green Lantern was meant to be their first attempt at a shared universe, but it sucked

[@riopato2009]

@@robertban871 the story is solid and ripped off from the source material but the execution of Green Lantern lacked any creative originality. As if they didn't know what they were filming and made it up as they went along.

[@CaH6633]

The weirdest part is that the DCAU which was coming out at around the same time is actually pretty good.... Like I've been watching those and they feel like they're made by people who actually... You know.... Like the source material and care about maintaining the feel of it.

[@Erasureeraser]

I'm actually blown away that WB had DC rights for almost 5 decades, it's confusing to me why it took them so long to do it when they could've been ahead of Marvel yet once they did, they dropped the ball

[@vrolijk9865]

You forgot to mention the studio wanted to catch up to Marvel, not giving snyder time to develop the universe. Thats why BvS had to introduce the whole JL

[@Drave_Jr.]

Something you forgot, the DCAU was a massive interconnected universe of the animated shows. Major innovation that succeeded

[@perseusshrestha7503]

Agreed. They should have rebooted right after BvS.

[@StopCallingMeShirley1180]

@@theamazinggigachad Not what they said at all. BvS was incredibly divisive and while it wasn’t a flop it did underperform as a film with three of the biggest DC heroes and as a setup for the Justice League.

[@ravenouspuncher]

@@theamazinggigachad bvs was 5 movies worth of bloated mess.

[@ravenouspuncher]

@@theamazinggigachad 🤡🤡

[@MaximumSpider19]

Wonder Woman and Suicide Squad were already in production and Justice League was scheduled to start shooting just weeks after BvS was released. Even if they did decide to reboot, they couldn't. So many movies were already in development and canceling them all would mean a lot of money would go down the drain. WB REALLY shot themselves in the foot.

[@manuelpatino7863]

​@@theamazinggigachad 🤡🤡🤡

[@John-ct9zs]

Henry Cavill is like 40 or 45. Ben Affleck is like 50. Gal Gadot is nearly 40. These people are too old. It was time for a reboot showing younger actors in a story with these characters just starting out and learning how to be heroes.

[@eq1373]

Again?

[@MrREAPERsz]

This won't make WB money. They'll scrap the universe if superman flops.

[@Stri4ker21]

Dude, are you serous? Cal Gadot and Henry Cavill aren't not that old. They are still having the quality to be superheroes for the next 6-7 years. Ben Affleck can still play Batman for quite a time because the Batman version of Ben Affleck is a veteran Batman who's in action for 20 years with a lot of experience. The problem is not the cast but the bad management made by Warner Bros that ruined everything.

[@Chadcat180]

​@@MrREAPERszdont worry cringelander flan

[@Chadcat180]

​@@Stri4ker21nope too old and too mid of actors

[@depsoul1604]

Of all the Batmen they could take inspiration from and they chose the Miller one.

[@re1010]

But only surface level.

[@depsoul1604]

@@re1010 Waaaay surface.

[@Chadcat180]

Miller hates superman

[@rape_andrew_tate]

Realistic choice. Great choice.

[@skepticalsmurf]

a comment I read previously states it best... while the MCU started at homeplate and gradually worked it's why through all the bases,DCEU decided to start at third base...

[@anarchohelenism]

The DCEU became a way for nerds to signal their opposition to the MCU, rather than an organic support for its artistic vision (or lack thereof). A shared universe cannot survive on spite alone, so a change was needed and necessary.

[@biocapsule7311]

It is sad that Marvel did so much more with incomplete access to their assets then DC, which has all their characters.

[@turtleanton6539]

And the biggest ones. Superman Batman Wonderman. Nolans 3 bat movies had just broke records

[@sefy76]

Wow! one person finally admits that Zack Snyder was and is a garbage choice for Superhero movies of this nature! shocked!

[@LuisSanchez-by7mh]

Zack Snyder was a terrible hire to start and lead the DCEU. They could’ve change directions after Man of Steel.

[@miguelgarcia6170]

I think a reboot is a good choice

[@pdzombie1906]

I blame Snyder because: 1. Not understanding the characters,therefore appealling to the suits in creating an universe of Batmans. 2. Deconstructing the characters even before they were presented. 3. Not understanding his audience (only his fans). 4. Casting Fisher, Miller and Heard.

[@DairokutenMaoUwU]

The moment Batfleck fired a gun I knew they f'd up

[@Kirbychu1]

Tone shifts aren't necessarily bad. I think it'd actually be an advantage if the DCEU let directors focus on making good, unique, artistic movies without worrying about the shared universe stuff too much. Marvel is too safe with the tone of its movies (Though they do experiment a lot more in the TV series).

[@cheesydawg371]

Yeah they should allow for different everything, movie to movie. They kinda do it in their most recent animated universe with some movies being PG-13 and some being R. Plus, even though superhero fatigue is just kinda a buzz word at this point, having a universe that's so expensive in storytelling could reinvigorate the genre.

[@jgreen2015]

There is no way in hell that black Adam and BvS are in the same universe Tonal consistency is vital for a shared universe That doesn't mean exactly the same. Guardians and ant-man are tonally distinct from endgame But there is enough consistency to be the same universe

[@doug176]

I will never understand how snyderverse fans will jump through all the hoops they do just to cope with snyder not understanding the characters. Like it’s right in your face, just watch the movies.

[@madlord124]

Well probably because that there have been arguments against Snyders versions of the characters, that are filled with bias and hypocritical. Some people say Super doesnt kill but he did kill Zod in some comic book runs and felt haunted by his action, Snyder isn't perfect but the criticisms(not all), are just questionable.

[@ginichilders9619]

We did watch them, you lunkhead. As did Magic Magy, Dasha, Mary Cherry, Rico Presents, Newfie Productions and a bunch of other people who are better at media literacy than you.

[@danielallen3454]

@@madlord124 But too many of Snyder's fans dismiss valid criticism out of hand. I've personally been attacked online for pointing out flaws in BvS's narrative, usually to the tune of, "You're just another child who's not mature enough to understand his vision" . That's a key thing with a lot of Snyder fans. His "vision". And while he may have had one, simply having a vision doesn't mean it's a good one. Tommy Wiseau had a vision. , too.

[@madlord124]

@Daniel Allen I'm not oblivious to the fans that act like that, I've been in multiple fandoms and learned that no side is pure. (I criticize them too) Like the people who criticize Snyder, like I said there's fair arguments against him, but I've seen too many of them that are just contradictory and hypocritical. To the point acting like the Snyder Fans they hate.

[@Hadar1991]

On other hand I would say that DC fans who hate SnyderVerse did not understand the film and I blame Warner Brothers for that. Because WB want to rush, rush and rush Snyder had to only to hint at things that they should be their own movie. People though that in Batman v Superman they will see Batman and Superman, but the whole point of BvS was that Batman was not a Batman anymore, he was old, tired, twisted and corrupted man, who once was a Batman, but he lost his way. Also Superman was not the Superman yet, these film were planned to show the journey of Kal-El to become Superman and symbol of hope. And show what could have happen if Superman became corrupted. So kinda probably Snyder would need like six movies to properly tell a story of moral death of Batman and his moral rebirth and also the story of death of Kal-El and the birth of Superman. And from that DCEU could nicely branch out. But WB basically started to panic in the middle of second movie (cinematic version of BvS was butchered, the Home Release version was far superior) and basically said to him FU during the production the third movie. Basically it should go something like this: 1. Man of Steel 2. downfall of Batman (+ his rising anger towards Superman) 3. BvS (where probably Batman should have than the killing blow, but dying Sups still saved Batman from some other danger - it could be even Doomsday) 4. remorse driven Batman assembles some member of Justice League, but Steppenwolf kicks their assess 5. Batman, Flash and company revive Superman, who goes nuts the and brings Earth to near destruction and it end in Flash trying to revert time 6. due to Flash intervention Bruce and Clark get another chance, Superman becomes symbol of hope, Batman may even die in glory Something like that.

[@kelonealforn841]

I'd say Shazam was amazing. Other than that its my opinion.

[@moycorbin4750]

The first one

[@spinosaurusstriker]

So brave

[@scloftin8861]

Well, Aquaman worked ... but then, Jason Momoa ... I did say elsewhere that the problem with the DCEU was they had no Stan Lee to keep things in the vision. And as we've seen since Mr. Lee passed, that was a very important part of the MCU. There needs to be a guiding hand familiar with the original material and with the vision to keep them connected in the universe and to the characters the fans love and follow.

[@stephengrant4841]

I highly doubt Stan Lee did much for the MCU out of being instrumental in the characters original creation decades ago, and having cameos in them. Feige is responsible for most of the MCU's success. He knows what fans want to see, knows the characters, and before he got stretched too thin was able to look over every project to varying degrees.

[@jackmonaghan8477]

Snyder is also a Randroid (one of his passion projects is an adaptation of 'The Fountainhead' and his production company is called The Stone Quarry), so yeah it was pretty much a given he'd miss the point of Superman and his altruistic nature and also alienate fans. IMO, Snyder is to comic book movies what Rob Liefeld was to comics in the 90s.

[@mechanomics2649]

Oh, okay. Everything makes so much more sense now. What a joke.

[@ginichilders9619]

He's not a fucking Randian. He's called her a mediocre writer and only likes the Fountainhead because it's a melodrama about the creative process. Also, he votes Democrat. Stop drinking Fish Bitch's piss koolaid.

[@ripvanwinkle91]

Wouldn’t be surprised if Snyder was into 90s comics a lot,especially that quote in 4:05

[@mainstreetsaint36]

He's actually mocked Ayn Rand before. As for his politics, he's a liberal. He's even done campaigning for Biden during the 2020 election.

[@titangarg44]

I think the biggest reason why DCEU failed is because they were trying to catch up with MCU but the thing is Marvel slowly and deliberately creating stand alone superhero movies. The first four movies of MCU weren't a blockbuster but they were patient. Whereas, DC wasn't. That's why DCEU failed. It should have been like this:- 1) Man of steel 2) The Batman 3) Wonder woman 4) The flash + Cyborg 5) Aquaman And then at last :- 6) The justice league

[@dragongrrl3]

A huge part of why it failed that was brought up was one that I always felt was it’s downfall: how rushed it felt. No time to establish itself, no care taken in any part, nothing.

[@vincentmanuel6052]

And it’s even more sad that people still praise Snyder and think James Gunn is wrong for firing people and rebooting it

[@Erasureeraser]

And you know what's worse? Snyder fanatics blame Gunn for ruining the DCEU because he's rebooting the franchise when DCEU was already ruined way before he came in. He came to DC to clean up the mess by the reboot, he's not ruining anything. He tried his best to clean the mess that DCEU made and hopes to succeed even better with his new universe

[@hulk-smash-deez-hose.7951]

Zack Snyder is still responsible for all the mess.

[@kenny8712]

wb edited bvs suicide squad and justice league and made them bad and you still blame synder

[@ravenouspuncher]

@@kenny8712 Snyder is responsible for those crass creative decisions such as frank miller batman inspired batfleck, red son inspired depressed superman, garbage wonder woman , cave troll doomsday and cringe lex luthor

[@hulk-smash-deez-hose.7951]

@@ravenouspuncher the fact he would over look Henry cavill being Superman, and reprising his role as Clark Kent, he put drunkfleck in a fatman suit, and title it Batman vs Superman, which is a massive trash pile, it should’ve been man of steel 2 and the entire film was rubbish, Ben drunkie is a terrible actor, Christian bale did a better job.

[@ravenouspuncher]

@@hulk-smash-deez-hose.7951 Have to disagree a little bit here. Ben is a fantastic actor but the problem is his batman. Frank miller batman is strictly elseworlds. U cant have this batman as ur main character in a justice league franchise. I 100% agree we should have gotten mos 2. It was very much needed. But no we cant have nice things can we

[@hulk-smash-deez-hose.7951]

@@ravenouspuncher they should’ve never put Batman above Superman, and that’s exactly what Zack Snyder did, he ruined Henry chance of becoming the next superstar hero, Christopher Nolan had a huge success with his Batman trilogy, why did Zack throw Superman under the bus, and then try putting Ben affleck at the top of everything, which was a dumb mistake, should’ve stick to Superman, and leave Batman alone, Chris Nolan already nailed it, am glad they shit canned Zack, but Henry did deserve another chance, Ben affleck took the spotlight from him.

[@KingAtreides03]

Thanks for the vid man. The DC universe is so complex and lovely that synder imo never rlly captivated it . I was lukewarm with the DCEU with only rlly liking MoS. So I’m happy with the reboot

[@jenjoe4359]

You didn’t like Shazam, aquaman, Wonder Woman or the sucide squad?

[@subhadeepghosh3961]

​@@jenjoe4359 The Suicide Squad was good. Even Suicide Squad was ok Rest were average

[@TheJoker-rs8wy]

@@subhadeepghosh3961 Suicide squad is one the least competently made comic books films ever. The script sucks and the editing is just messy.

[@Chadcat180]

Mos is the worst superman movie .improve ur taste

[@Ida6Leter]

The first superhero is the Scarlet Pimpernel, which came out in 1905, predating the phantom by several decades.

[@ShadowSonic2]

Technically you could call Samson a superhero too.

[@guileniam]

​@@ShadowSonic2 by that logic Hanuman and Hercules and Thesueus and Krishna are Superheroes

[@turtleanton6539]

​@@guileniamthe u R

[@jigokuruler36]

The biggest problem that wb has was keeping snyder, the moment man of steel was divisive, they should've released him, he had 2 DC movies Made that we're divisive that should've been received well, watchmen and Mos, and those 2 we're more than enough of a sample to stop the snyder versión of the dceu, and Even then after bvs, that should've been the automatic next move

[@themasterofcommentsandrese4351]

“End of the road, nothing to do, and no hope of things getting better. Sounds like Saturday night at my house.”

[@jerryterwase9027]

A very good presentation. Its a case study not just for Warner Bros to learn from but ever studio to understand what to avoid.

[@renanmesquita8527]

For me after Man of Steel, the story should be about the aftermath of the Metropolis attack and Superman being arrested, while Flash (who would have already been featured in a solo movie) and Martian Manhunter would go back in time and help Superman in the Battle of Metropolis.

[@johnotto-wl2yh]

@@renanmesquita8527that sounds terrible 👎🏽

[@renanmesquita8527]

@@johnotto-wl2yh C mon man, you prefer BVS??

[@mattdawg83686]

The short answer is they tried to do too much too soon in order to try, and fail, to compete with the MCU.

[@VeraxMusic]

Exactly, an essay isn't required to explain this simple, one sentence concept.

[@Remythechef]

The DCEU serves as a morality lesson: Don’t hire a guy who is more interested in Non Traditional superheroes to spearhead a franchise featuring traditional superheroes. Don’t cram in 100 plot points all at once just to play catch up. Don’t extortionate the audience by butchering a film and have them pay extra for an ultimate cut of the film. Don’t turn Superman into a psychopathic murderer, don’t turn Batman into a psychopath, don’t turn Wonder Woman into a rapist. If your name is Joss Whedon… please stop. IF you are gonna work with Joss Whedon, take any and all creative control away from him and have him on a tighter lease and edit out a majority of his work. If you are gonna make a cinematic universe, have a much better battle plan than this.

[@theswan1852]

National Comics was published by Quality Comics. I think you meant National Periodical Publications. Shazam was published by Fawcett and bought by DC 30 years later. I'm a minute in. 5:54 In the Dark Knight Returns, Batman tries to stop but not kill the Joker. Joker kills himself to frame Batman for something Batman would never do. It's important to the story that Batman doesn't kill but punish. Snyder saw what he wanted to see. I agree with most of what is being said here.

[@TheGuyWhoEditz147]

It's surprising that the first 3 dceu movies were box office success

[@jokarr33]

Zack Snyder is like if Monster Energy drink was a person.

[@sincityquinn]

It failed because they didn’t earn it like Marvel did. They should have set the films up like Black Adam.

[@eleegs]

Snyder only knows how to make amazing living digital wall paper. He doesn’t put any thought in his characters. Why would Batman kill gangbangers all day long but catch and release the Joker? This decision makes Batman look ridiculous

[@Keinish79]

I have never been more dissapointed by a movie than I was dissapointed by Man of Steel. The first trailer gave me hope and I thought it was an interesting take. Then I saw Snyder's version of superman and how far it was from what I thought the character was. It was like the some of the characters had been body snatched. I spent the rest of the afternoon talking to my niece and nephews about Superman, and what I thought the character was. We didn't enjoy that cacophony of a movie. I showed them Superman v/s the Elite so they could better understand why I liked the character.

[@Ramonesaehs]

I agree 💯

[@jgreen2015]

I don't think superman smiled once in MoS.. That says it all

[@Chadcat180]

I love the part where he kills hundreds by lasering and crashing a huge ship in to middle of the city

[@kentrelltv9449]

@@jgreen2015yes Superman did smile you just wasn’t paying attention

[@jgreen2015]

@@kentrelltv9449 when

[@nomoonlight6958]

The DC higher ups were a mess, greedy, selfish. I'm glad James and Peter in charge. They actually understand characters and read comics

[@ClockMonsterLA]

It still kinda bugs me that "DCEU", as a franchise label, didn't even come from WB or DC. It came from an entertainment reporter who coined the abbreviation, and it just stuck because WB/DC couldn't come up with an official name for the franchise themselves. I mean, they didn't even try, which I think says everything we need to hear about just how seriously they DIDN'T take the idea of creating and sustaining a superhero cinematic universe.

[@abongilezolanipeterson5588]

DCEU failed because of two reasons. 1. Trying to catch up to Marvel instead of building up their universe at their own pace. 2. After getting criticised for number one, somehow concluding that the solution was to copy Marvel’s lighter/disney tone, smh. In conclusion, lack of identity is the root cause of all this nonsense.

[@realwaifus5514]

Honestly wiping the slate clean is exactly what the DCEU needs , the whole thing has been a flaming mess from the beginning. And the funny thing is they could’ve been on to something with having someone like Snyder be a creative lead. The darker tone and visual style could’ve created a market simply by being such a staunch contrast to Marvel, the problem intitially was that the characters didn’t feel like themselves. If they had kept Snyder in check when it came to the individual stories we could’ve been sitting on a gold mine. The Snyder Cut is by no means perfect but it’s so much better than the hacked together chimeras we ended up getting.

[@ericpeterson8732]

I remember an interview where Zach Snyder talked about Clark and Bruce arguing at Lex's party. Zach said he had their alter-egos argue because it seemed "silly for two grown men to have an argument in tights." That's when I knew Snyder knew nothing about superheroes. Then he killed Superman in the second movie and I knew he didn't understand series. Even if you planned to bring him back right away, it's too early narratively. The big funeral at the end of BvS was for Christopher Reeves' Superman, not Henry Cavill. A cool montage is not enough to establish Cavill's Superman as a beloved hero. (Especially since Snyder wanted to make both heroes suspect in order to justify his epic showdown) A few days earlier, Superman was suspected of blowing up a courthouse. Not to mention the no holds barred destruction of Metropolis at the end of MOS. There is no way he's as beloved as that presidential style funeral would indicate. But Zach didn't read comics. Or serials at all. He's a splash page guy, a poster guy. The other reason the DCEU was doomed to fail, Zach took old Batman with new Superman. All so he could do a crappy homage to the Dark Knight Returns. I hope Gunn gets it right. At least he gets the characters.

[@LicoriceLain]

Gunn is starting with All Star Superman, so not only is he picking better source material, we are coming out of the gate with an atypical villain choice for Supes. Anyone who plots their own version of a Supes franchise always throws around the same names. Never seen someone say Solaris before.

[@chimpanzinc1790]

they weren't even wearing tights

[@macuser7048]

DCEU has the same problems that comics have had since the mid 2000s. They worry too much about looking mature that it becomes stupid.

[@kevthepoet]

The Snydercult isn't gonna like this but they can't argue with the box office or the truth

[@ravenouspuncher]

they are losers

[@dillydraws]

They would just say most don't understand Synder's vision

[@angelvelazquez7932]

Man of Steel finally showed how powerful Superman can really be in live-action that's the part I enjoy the most. Everything else not so much the second I saw doomsday in the bvs trailer I was like don't tell me they're going to kill him😤. I was upset he died the more so because they decided to jump the gun with this thing his death disrupted the entire DC Universe but even his enemies attended his funeral and it made it to real-life news networks. Now I can understand them trying to fix Justice League after bvs and they should have delay the filter properly fix up the story so it makes sense along with fixing the visual-effects particularly everything Superman related so Henry could do the reshoots after mission impossible. Ultimately Henry Cavill was collateral damage every interview about this character you can tell he respects the material so much but he was never given the opportunity to truly do it and that's the sad part about it. It really made me wonder why during those periods of that figuring out what to do with the universe that they just chose not to try again with Superman. Rant over. Great video!

[@eq1373]

That guy in the MOS movie was NOT Superman

[@Chadcat180]

Mos is worst superman movie kid .touch a comic

[@taker68]

Thank you, exactly what I've been saying. I can remember when we thought of DC as the lighter universe compared to Marvel's. Now, it's reversed. Not every hero should be Batman broody. Dc wanted to catch up with marvel too quickly. I could see BVS and Un-Alive Yourself Squad as coming much further down the line in the DCEU. Build up to those.

[@Heath580]

Although I somewhat like the extended cut of BvS and love the Snyder cut of JL, it baffles me that they did BvS in just the 2nd movie. That's the kind of movie you tell after like 2 Superman movies and at least one Batman and JL movie.

[@GabyGeorge1996]

It’s like doing Iron man but then deciding to do the plot of CACW in the second Iron Man

[@Chadcat180]

Improve ur taste .theres nothing in ultimate edition its one of the worst movies so is snyder cut which is laughable

[@guileniam]

They had to because mos wasn't as lucrative as they wanted so they put the two assets together in a rush for JL

[@blinkonceonsunday1325]

Well, out of 11 DCEU films, 6 were complete crap in their original theatrical versions, 2 were actually kind of good and the other 3 barely watchable. That's not a good record for any franchise. Of the 6 crap movies, they re-released 3 of them in extended versions to fix some of the problems with them, including the 4-hour Zack Snyder cut of Justice League. I think the biggest problem with the franchise as a whole is terrible management of the studio and too much indecisiveness on what direction they want to take the franchise. All these course-changes and the multitudes of canceled projects are very confusing for the audiences and probably causing a big headache for screenwriters trying to fit all the pieces together and make cohesive stories.

[@denickart]

DC actually did have an interconnected universe of 8 shows over the course of 14 years by that point.

[@BiggestDawgEver]

100% agree and have been saying most of the same things for years. Losing faith in the new DCU though as the plan doesn't make sense to me yet.

[@volerasphere]

You're absolutely right, Zack Snyder knows nothing about the DC characters, particularly Batman. In Dawn of Justice, he's the world's worst detective who goes straight to blaming Superman for blowing up the courthouse, without even investigating it. Batman never does this. He never jumps to conclusions or assumes people are guilty. He ALWAYS investigates and looks at EVERY piece of evidence before drawing an informed conclusion. Yet in BvS, he went straight to assuming Superman was evil and beating up him (and almost murdering him) for something he didn't do.

[@dakotaloven1362]

Did zack make a decent passionate attempt at the dceu I believe yes did he succeed? I believe no main reason the not understanding the fundamental aspects that make these characters who they are and the changes he made they might as well be completely different characters

[@DatAsianGuy]

I do think Zack Snyder understands these heroes... he just didn't want to create the "default" version of them. Like how Batman in BvS is super jaded and tired. he brands, tortures and kills people left and right. But he wasn't always like that. while we do not see it, Alfred's dialogue implies Batman's morals degrading, the burned Robin suit, etc. like obviously this Batman didn't start out as a hyper violent murderer, but he became one. so I feel like Zack Snyder knows the character, but chose to go with something very different and risky.

[@dakotaloven1362]

@lJ_K no he absolutely did not understand them and he deliberately made batman and superman killers because those are the comics he likes and has stated he doesn't like hopeful heroes this has all come from his own mouth in several interviews stop sucking zacks dick and accept that you are qrong and that zack has no idea what the fuck he is doing

[@Chadcat180]

​@@DatAsianGuymore like zack hatea the character wants to make cringe .he didnt do anything new .his superman and batman is apollo and midnighter from authority

[@carlosleyva-calistenia6400]

@@DatAsianGuy Yeah. It was always clear to me what you are saying (I'm myself getting more jaded and tired as I grow older 🤣) and I'm quite sure his character arc was a redemption one, but we never had the chance to see it.

[@DatAsianGuy]

yeah, his character was definitely redemption at the end of BvS, but it fell a little flat.@@carlosleyva-calistenia6400

[@motor4X4kombat]

5:31 even in the dark knight returns he didn't kill people, sure he was more violent than usual and even frank miller ended up ruined with strike again and all star atman, but he used rubber bullets in his tank mobile and the hole purpose of the superman battle was to humiliated for his ideals rather than legit kill him, because if he wanted he could just shoot a kriptonite bulet to his heart... something that the brillant snyder use a spear but the "peak batman" didn't use it until the final blow insted of using it in his first move, and i know he was also planing to bully him but he was also planing to kill him since scene 1, and even if he was suppoust to humillate him it dosn't feel earn like in the comics because this guys barelly have a story of rivalry and they just first meet.

[@MariUrameshi]

Snyder’s logic about Batman killing is hilarious 😂 basically by his logic if batman shoots someone then the bullet killed that person not him

[@Chainsawhappy]

Nothing should remain of the old DCEU. If Gadot is not replaced as Wonder Woman, DC is still doomed. Start fresh.

[@nrrrt7838]

Great video hope your channel grows more.

[@cubencis]

What an absolute clusterfuck of missed opportunities

[@nderren]

It's a combination of both. Synder's DC movies looked good and unique but the writing was god awful and it reaffirms that he didn't care about learning about the characters, he just wanted to do his own thing while having access to their powers.

[@Galimeer5]

I think you're misremembering. Ironman 1 was a massive success and beloved by everyone who saw it. It still holds up today as one of the best MCU movies. The success of Ironman is what gave Marvel the confidence to push forward with the cinematic universe. The rest of Phase 1 was the "7/10 Pretty good, not great" you described

[@mistermastermind528]

A lot to unpack here...well because there were also a lot of things that happened between MoS and now. I'd say they were doomed from the start with Zack Snyder on board. Don't get me wrong, I was excited when he was hired for MoS but I saw the final product and was just meh-I knew it was downhill from there. The course corrections didn't offer anything also. They were rattled and didn't know what to do. I fully believe that there is an Ayer cut of SS but I don't think it would also be any good. The first set of films of the DCEU is a case of not-so-really-good-films either way, whether it was Snyder taking the helm or it was studio interference. Yes, I liked the casting for the most part and the production value is cool, but the storytelling was really nothing to be happy about, at least for me. No amount of good costumes and sets will save a bad story. And clearly, Zack Snyder tried too hard to be deep and whatever he was trying to do never worked. People keep on saying DC should always be dark. Well...I heavily disagree. Tone shouldn't be about the company, it should be about the CHARACTER. Superman and maybe even Wonder Woman are more hopeful. Batman is dark and gritty. The Flash and Booster Gold are funny. Green Lantern is cosmic and could go in different directions. See? It's the variety of characters that keeps the universe rich. If all of these characters are built around one tone (i.e. dark 😮‍💨), then the universe would just be monotonous (Yeah, I also hate how the MCU keeps pushing "funny" especially in the later movies). Am I excited for Gunn? Not really. I'm holding out judgment. He just has this distinct style that I don't see in a Superman film. But who knows, he may have something.

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

Yup, doomed to fail when they signed on Snyder. Should've used the DCAU as inspiration like Sam Raimi did when he used Spiderman the animated series as inspiration for his trilogy.

[@avinashrajbonshi]

thank you for not being a snyder meat rider.

[@AmbroseSimpson]

Kevin Smith lecturing anyone on not understanding creative properties considering his later He-Man brain-fart is laughable.