Why The Paleo Diet Couldn't Save The Neanderthals

These relatives of ours lived in Eurasia for more than 300,000 years. They were expert toolmakers, using materials like stone, wood, and animal bone. They were also skilled hunters and foragers, and may even have created cave art. So what caused the decline and disappearance of their population?
Well, in a way...it could’ve been us. But maybe not in the way you might’ve heard.
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Thanks to Julio Lacerda (252mya.com/collections/shop/j...) and Fabrizio De Rossi (252mya.com/collections/shop/f...) for the excellent reconstructions of Neanderthals and ancient Humans!
To learn more about what genes our Neanderthal relatives passed down to us, check out our episode, “When We Met Other Human Species”: • When We Met Other Huma...
Produced by Complexly for Digital Studios
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References: docs.google.com/document/d/1R...

[@Haiphong778]

I'm glad they measured in burgers. As an American it's the only measurement I understand.

[@limiv5272]

I thought Americans only measured in football fields

[@Imurai]

@@limiv5272 it's hamburgers, american football fields, Olympic pools and bullets. Although like the metric system, each unit can be derived from any other. For an olypic pool of bloood, you need a hundred football fields of soon-to-be hamburgers (aka cows) full of bullets. See? It is SOOO intuitive!

[@Thessalin]

If you're a kid in America, it's nuggets.

[@birdgirl8390]

I guess we’re talking about roughly 600kcal, using a burger was quite universal and easy to imagine, but I would’ve loved „a second breakfast“ 😁

[@lordgarion514]

@@Imurai And don't forget, those are .45 caliber bullets, not 9mm.

[@Vespuchian]

I love that Neanderthals and Fantasy Dwarves have grown increasingly similar to each other over time. Even Gimli's throwaway line "We Dwarves are natural sprinters, very dangerous over short distances!" from _The Two Towers_ turns out to be perfectly true of Neanderthals.

[@DracarmenWinterspring]

omg I swear I was gonna comment with that exact quote! But curiously enough that quote was invented for the movies, and the original books had more evidence of dwarves being good at endurance. So I guess the movies accidentally reflected our evolving understanding of human relatives? 🙃

[@roys.1889]

Someone really needs to codify the idea that Dwarves are just mythologized versions of Neanderthals which somehow survived being passed down from oral traditions for tens of thousands of years.

[@sanjivjhangiani3243]

@@roys.1889 I think this was done in the "Winter of the World" Series.

[@Vespuchian]

@@sanjivjhangiani3243 Arguably also done in _The 13th Warrior_ although they were portrayed more like trolls in that book.

[@neolexiousneolexian6079]

@@roys.1889 "Someone" being Dr Z from PBS Monstrum, maybe?

[@TheMysterieRPGguy]

I read the title as "why the paleo diet couldn't save the Netherlands" and as a Dutch man that confused me greatly hahaha.

[@TragoudistrosMPH]

"There are only two things I hate in this world. People who don't respect other people's cultures, and the Dutch" Goldmember 😁

[@diabolicwave7238]

To be fair you can't build polders out of the paleo diet :P

[@TheMysterieRPGguy]

@@diabolicwave7238 I must admit you have a point. XD

[@TheMysterieRPGguy]

@@TragoudistrosMPH But we're such a friendly bunch. haha

[@ThomasBomb45]

RIP Netherlands

[@nicks1451]

The idea that Neanderthals starved themselves into extinction fills me with both sadness and empathy.

[@Pope2501]

They didn't "starve themselevs." That's like victim blaming. Also they weren't a species and didn't go extinct. Their genes live on in all human beings except those with ancestry that is purely from sub-Saharan Africa.

[@albatross1688]

@@Pope2501 Indeed, and even if it's just 1% of our genome, the fact that modern humans still have that is significant. What probably happened is their population declined heavily, but they didn't all die. Instead, with there being more humans, the remaining Neanderthals were likely bred out. Neanderthals are our ancestors too though, as that 1% of our DNA means we're not pureblooded Homo Sapiens.

[@JellyAntz]

@@albatross1688 homo sapiens was basically never pure blood, always mixed with neanderthal, denisovan, or other unknown "human" species, which were probably "human" enough

[@user-yr5nv2gv7m]

imagine if they were coming from a just collapsed civilization with presliced bread striped toothpaste and completely replaced wildlife foodchain... or even better imagine how our current genome will take the 'dip'... it wont, at all...

[@LuisSierra42]

@@Pope2501 Do you see any Neanderthals today? how can you say they didn't go extinct?

[@corbinmcconnell7574]

"I'm wasted on cross-country! We Neanderthals are natural sprinters!"

[@amrys_argent]

"Very dangerous over short distances!"

[@Elastane]

nobody tosses a Neanderthal!

[@stephenjohn2131]

Don't tell the homosapien!

[@Osterbaum]

If I recall correctly some of the ancient megafauna goes extinct around the time neanderthals do too? If that is so then that would certainly have contributed to the lack of food. Especially since neanderthals might have preferred larger prey. I mean being built stockier would be beneficial in hunting larger animals and being a short distance sprinter rather than a long distance runner is likely to lead to ambush tactics in hunting. So neanderthals might have ambushed large prey animals and had a tougher time catching smaller animals since they are harder to ambush. I'm speculating so I don't know for sure.

[@Osterbaum]

I meant to say that smaller animals are harder to ambush by a larger animal. A house cat can obviously ambush a mouse. A human is not a highly adapted ambush predator like a cat though. As to the cannibalism, let's remember that it is entirely possible they were cannibalised by members of the same family group after their death instead of murdered by another group. Even if it was another group they might not have murdered them but scavenged their dead bodies. I remember reading somewhere that neanderthals might have been less co-operative than we are so they might not have shared food and knowledge about getting food with each other readily, which would also have contributed to their extinction in this scenario. Of course this does not automatically mean they were hostile to eachother. Of course starving can create the conditions for cannibalism regardless of other factors.

[@roanwolf6389]

Thats exactly it. Neanderthals needed large animals for whole families for food, Bone Tools and clothes. It's like when buffalo were hunted extinct in the wild, plains native americans had no more a base for surviving. Neanderthals had nothing to survive on anymore the way they knew it for thousands of years.

[@richardhill6949]

Neanderthals died out at least 40,000 years ago while the most of the megafauna of Eurasia and the Americas died out 10,000 years ago. Basically, at 10,000 B.C., Neanderthals have been extinct for 300 centuries. So it's kind of a stretch that Neanderthals died from a lack of prey.

[@simonj3413]

@@richardhill6949 what the original commenter is referencing is that there actually was a wave of extinctions in Eurasia around that time, casualties including the cave bear, scimitar-toothed cat (Homotherium), straight-tusked elephant, and Elasmotherium.

[@keouine]

@@richardhill6949 not just Richard Hill. What about this idea? The Neanderthals in the Sidron area at that moment could have over hunted or wiped out the prey in their small territory. It doesn't take that long to starve. Maybe they were weakened and killed for food by another group before they could migrate to an area with more food. Or they were the defenders and another group moved in and killed them. No signs of such a struggle in the excavation? Consider how little proof is lying around fossilized in the US for 300 yrs of struggle, lynching, mugging, murder, whippings and gang fight?

[@x1PMac1x]

She is such a great narrator and host for this series! Love Eons and Space-Time. 😊

[@nilspatrik]

The best!

[@X7rocks]

Yilf

[@michaeljames9882]

Amen!!!

[@VictorJulioHurtado]

Agreed

[@cachorrovinagre2979]

Where is this accent from? Northwest US? I'm not american or live in the country btw.

[@unvergebeneid]

Dammit, why don't I have the genes that let me eat an extra burger a day without regrets?

[@punkdigerati]

You just need to have the extra muscle mass. Get swole.

[@highviewbarbell]

im 6'4, 260lbs and im currently eating 2500 calories a day. I'm basically starving and losing half a pound every single day.

[@Rodel-Ituralde]

Because you'd have gone the way of the neanderthal, thats why

[@davidec.4021]

And be jacked af lol

[@infinitemonkey917]

Ironically the genes that allowed us to survive times of scarcity now lead to obesity and diabetes.

[@nicholasconder4703]

One other indirect cause of Neanderthal decline was probably the eruption of the Campi Flegrei volcano, which would have reduced hunting ranges and crop plants in certain areas of Europe for a decade or more. This would have increased the population pressures, and lead to some more violent interactions between the two groups.

[@LuisAldamiz]

Indeed. Or rather maybe: the early UP expansion was very active before that, with probably Sapiens groups scattered in much of Europe (proto-Aurignacian in North Italy and the Basque Country, Aurignacian I in Hungary, Swabian Aurignacoid in Southern Germany, Uluzzian, now demonstrated to be Sapiens-made, in Greece and South Italy, other groups in Bulgaria and South Russia, and also in West and Central Asia, North Africa, etc.) The Earliest UP was a quite fast push through, it did not directly got Neanderthal extinct yet but it did unsettle them with many Sapiens groups competing with them from Iran to the Bay of Biscay, from Palestine to Altai. But another issue is that the Campanian Ignimbrite Eruption is dated to c. 39,000 BP, while the big push of Aurignacian culture proper, which pushed Neanderthals out of Aquitaine and Iberia among other places and was basically a pan-European culture, is dated to 2000 years earlier. Maybe in the future improved calibrations will make the dates merge but so far it seems like Sapiens (and more specifically Aurignacian Sapiens stemming from Hungary) expanded before that and then survived the volcanic winter without much trouble (the Uluzzian Sapiens on the other hand were massacred by that supervolcano).

[@nicholasconder4703]

@@Name-cz5jj Although there is currently no evidence for such an impact causing the extinction of the Neanderthals. And the Younger Dryas impact is still controversial. I'm sitting on the fence regarding the latter.

[@everettduncan7543]

There was no such thing as crops back then

[@LongToad]

More likely tensions rose when all the members of one group started wearing "Msaga" hats (make stone age great again).

[@nicholasconder4703]

@@everettduncan7543 Yes, I know that is strictly the case, but they had to forage for nuts, fruits, berries, tubers and the like. If no plants are growing, you have none of those to round out your diet.

[@_ninthRing_]

Another factor in the extinction of the Neanderthal species was tribal groups. Neanderthals almost exclusively lived in small familial groups of perhaps a dozen individuals: parents, children, uncles/aunts & perhaps even grandparents (they took care of their elderly & disabled). Homo Sapiens, on the other hand, lived in large tribal groups of perhaps several hundred individuals. The advantages of tribal groups were myriad. While their food requirements would have been pretty significant when compared to a Neanderthal family, they had the tremendous advantage of diversification of labor. No matter how skilled, two hunters can only catch so much food & they often would have had to leave parts of the carcase behind, simply because they couldn't carry it all. On the other hand, a tribal hunting party could separate into groups, each doing their own thing: • Teens going after small rodents & lagomorphs with a sling, • Younger children hunting birds & raiding eggs from nests. • Multi-team hunters with massive pit traps could be used to catch massive deer, aurochs & even mammoths. Some digging the trap, others driving the herds & even more laying in wait with heavy rocks, spears & axes. Once they had killed enough prey, they could cut up the skin, meat & organs to carry back home, or cooked on the spot. 40-60 hunters working together could provide a lot of food, indeed. This would be great for the families in the tribe (& perhaps neighbouring tribes, coming to work together during prey migrations), but these tribal groups had a truly revolutionary advantage over the smaller Neanderthal groups. Astonishingly, this was something we still value today: *Information Transmittion & Storage..!* The Hard-Won Wisdom of the Neanderthals would have been built up with incredibly tiny increments, every new invention/technique would being passed down generationally & spread to other groups very, very slowly - with a single premature death taking millennia of accumulated knowledge to the grave. In sharp contrast, the human tribal groups would have knowledge spread across multiple individuals within each tribe (redundancy of storage), while co-operation, competition & trade between tribes, would have led to remarkable innovations not only being developed, but retained in the minds of many people, spreading across all the Human tribes in Europe within perhaps only a few generations.

[@Kettvnen]

Why did the Neanderthals stayed in a small group though?

[@samuelborchers6459]

Love this comment

[@sojournern]

Please give citations on where humans lived in larger groups. From what I know homo sapiens lived in small groups until agriculture.

[@unm0vedm0ver]

We mustn't forget the Campi Flegrei Caldera extinction event that wiped out most of the Neanderthals, and megafauna, in Europe before the arrival of Homo Sapiens.

[@VeggiesOutFront]

@@Kettvnen I think the question should be why did homo sapiens form such large groups

[@benmiller5015]

Meat is meat if you're hungry enough. Also can you guys do an episode about when our ancestors started covering themselves in animal hides?

[@kevinsmith9013]

when we got crabs. true story.

[@MarioPetrinovich]

Tools (Oldowan, 2.6 mya) are made for sharp edge. I cannot imagine better reason for using sharp edges, than to cut animal hides. I wouldn't cut meat that I eat, because stone particles would break my teeth, so, it has to be hides and wood. Hides have more sense. Plus, Oldowan tools were made from pebbles. Pebbles are about the bluntest things in the Universe, so, they wouldn't figure out sharp age use looking at blunt pebbles. Broken shellfish is about the sharpest thing in nature, so, sharp edge use should be establish with shellfish, before the emergence of Oldowan tools. And you need a lot of time to establish such a tool use. So, it was considerably before the emergence of Oldowan. If you take that we have thick enamel, because we ate abrasive food, there is nothing more abrasive than sand (even today we are using it for sandblasting), and shellfish meat is full with sand. If you take that shellfish meat is the only meat that animal without carnassials can eat, and sea shellfish meat is also salty, and we are eating salty food, well, it is time, finally, for scientists to start to use their brain cells. Their main theory is that everything that we have is because of our brain power, and they themselves are not using that power at all.

[@AnnhilateTheNihilist]

@@MarioPetrinovich lol. You can’t imagine a better use for a cutting tool/knife than… tailoring? How about, oh I dunno, cooking, hunting, skinning, chopping, fighting, whittling, etc.

[@MarioPetrinovich]

@@AnnhilateTheNihilist Oh, I can. But I am talking about the evolution of stone tool use. I can imagine hammer can be used in the production of Space Shuttle, only, I don't think that they invented hammer so to be used in the production of Space Shuttle. It is long time from the emergence of hammer to using it in the production of Space Shuttle.

[@MarioPetrinovich]

@@AnnhilateTheNihilist BTW, the question was specifically about tailoring, when tailoring started. And my answer was considerably *before* the Oldowan tool industry. Also, I fully agree that Oldowan tools can be used in all the different ways, after all Oldowan tools persisted from 2.6 mya all the way to very recent dates.

[@IAmWBeard]

So if neanderthals burned more calories, could that explain their ability to stay warmer in colder climates? And their improved healing abilities?

[@dylanschermerhorn3509]

this is very late but if you never found the answer to your question. Yes, it did help them. There diet was extremely healthy from veggies fruits and meats. This kept there metabolism at peak levels and when you have a very healthy diet focused on meat your thyroid temperature goes up which means... yes your metabolism will increase helping you stay warmer from burning lots of energy.

[@NawDawgTheRazor]

These stories are always so sad, but it’s nice to know these ancestors and sibling human beings live on in a way in us.

[@LuisSierra42]

Their demise is a template for what will happen to us

[@Willsmiff1985]

@@LuisSierra42 when a system runs out of energy…

[@Awesomeninja54]

That's a really wholesome way to look at it, I like the way you think

[@nigelkhan5331]

yes their dna lives on inside us :)

[@natureboy5990]

Some of us* 😁

[@pjlove367]

Imagine if Neanderthals jad survived to modern times. With the general abundance of food they would be world leading power lifters or something.

[@atomicjacob6413]

They won't have made it past the bronze age with their small family unit mentality. They would have made for a formidable force if they banded together on the scale of the homo sapiens

[@joselarios2129]

We would of just inslaved them. Its better they died off

[@ANJROTmania]

@@joselarios2129 that wouldve been better.

[@kellydalstok8900]

@@atomicjacob6413 You are very focused on the “smaller family groups” thing. You have been corrected by someone who explained to you that Inuit also live in small family groups. Besides, why would you assume Neanderthals couldn’t adapt to living in larger groups had they had the time.

[@atomicjacob6413]

@@kellydalstok8900 the fact that even with them facing extinction they didn't think it beneficial to band together in larger groups and work together....I guess same will be said about our specie's. 'In the face of climate change , why didn't they band together to stop screwing up their habitats?'.. Hopefully they won't find out it was due to something as vain as money.

[@TragoudistrosMPH]

Exciting to hear of newer information to add to the discussion. I had never heard of that family group or the signs of cannibalization. Fascinating.

[@Aaron-hk9eh]

Didn’t the narrator say something about 2013?

[@myriamickx7969]

@@Aaron-hk9eh Well that's pretty recent in palaeontological terms. EDIT: I just checked and it's a group of 13 people, discovered in 1994.

[@levitschetter5288]

Would the ancient homo sapiens even recognize the neanderthals as a separate species? They looked similar enough that it would have taken some scrutiny to find the differences

[@icedcat4021]

lol yeah theyd 100% be able to tell. look at the difference in their skulls compared to ours.

[@cerridianempire1653]

@@icedcat4021 that is if they got their skulls, if they saw each other from a long distance they prolly thought was just another human dude

[@nirodper]

@@cerridianempire1653 we are great at noticing subtle differences in faces and body posture

[@SilverDawnArrow]

I've seen a theory that a reason we find things that look very similar to humans, but not quite, uncanny is that ancient humans had to be able to tell different human species apart and this instinct has stuck with us

[@SamButler22]

Modern humans within the last 500 years thought other humans were different species. Neanderthals were even more distinct, they would have noticed

[@shepherdden8]

this makes me unbelievably sad in depths I've never felt before. what a tragic circumstance to go thru being two of the most intelligent and empathetic species to exist on this earth- the species who nature did not favor and the species who witnessed that extinction

[@sarakianebula2667]

My thoughts also. The species witnessing..

[@graquinn4058]

This is so beautifully put

[@chitinskin9860]

Technically they didn't go entirely extinct, the species that witnessed their extinction also decided to mate with them until whatever remained of the survivor's gene pool was completely absorbed into ours, so now people with neanderthal genes still exist to this day. Granted, hybridization also probably contributed to their extinction as a unique species/people, but it's better than total extinction.

[@GiantEagle610]

I was reminded of sad story "The Inheritors" written by William Golding in the 1950s. He writes about a last group of Neanderthals who are slowly being decimated by modern humans

[@monicacollins8289]

@JUN LEE because of your comment, I just ordered the paperback. Thank you. Have you read the Clan of the Cave Bear series? There are five books that follow the main character, written by Jean Auel. The author thoroughly researched, then implemented everything in those books.

[@GiantEagle610]

@@monicacollins8289 ooo...Haven't heard of that one. Will try it. Is it also a Homo Sapiens vs Neanderthals book?

[@monicacollins8289]

@@GiantEagle610 the first and second books address that. Main character is Ayla. She is a homo sapien found and adopted by a neanderthal medicine woman. Not everyone welcomes her into the group. That's all the spoilers you get. ☺️

[@t.b.cont.]

Considering that we theorize Neanderthals evolved a confrontational hunting style while humans evolved a persistence hunting style the amount of calories Neanderthals would have needed compared to us makes a lot of sense

[@727eman]

I love this channel. It brings me back to being 6 years old and wanting to be a paleontologist. Absolutely fascinating and great information 👍🏼

[@spartan1986og]

I have always found it interesting that we've only discovered Neanderthal bones with signs on cannibalism, and not Homo sapiens bones. If Neanderthals were cannibals by necessity, I'd expect to find at least some Homo sapiens bones they'd processed. The only reasons I can think of why we don't is that Neanderthals never killed Homo sapiens, or that they only ate other Neanderthals. That later reason, if true, makes me wonder if the cannibalism might have been ritual in nature and they were selective in that way. Fascinating stuff!

[@rosiehawtrey]

We have found pan narrans sapiens europus with signs of cannibalism. Even Timeteam managed it - windy-something caves. Look up a disease called Kuru, then be *very* happy you don't have it

[@zippy4star]

Of course, butchering the bones doesn't necessarily means they were eating them Could've been a burial ritual.

[@cerridianempire1653]

@@zippy4star or could be both

[@Pete_1986]

Mark Bryant lack of data in general is the problem. It's not like there are thousands and thousands of sites demonstrating clear Neanderthal eating Neanderthal cannibalism.

[@spartan1986og]

Alas, you are correct @@Pete_1986. More's the pity, but who knows what the future will bring. Stay tuned!

[@bobgreene2892]

As recently as a few thousand years ago, evidence from the Baltic shore shows humans-- at least occasionally-- were cannibals. This is not to say they made it a way of life, but that times were very, very grim for isolated humanoid groups. In fact, our genetic patterns reveal we passed through a population "bottleneck" in which relatively few mating pairs survived.

[@allisonscanlan4144]

Yeah we barely survived as a species

[@googleyoutubechannel8554]

Um, there's evidence of widespread human cannibalism as a regular practice from less than 100 years ago?

[@graceneilitz7661]

You don’t need to go back more than a century from our time to find an example of humans resorting to cannibalism out of desperation. A rather famous example (in the United States) was the Donner party (1846-47). They got trapped in the Sierra Nevada mountains during the winter.

[@wcdeich4]

There is a similarity in how modern wolves are a little bit smaller & better runners compared to the dire "wolves."

[@Roberta-yf4ge]

Well all of the resent wolf evolution is just making them smaller and more efficient because they rely so much on team work, because big cats are much better as a solo predator.

[@oeeveemkittygfreak]

The dire wolves weren't related to modern day wolves at all and were more closely related to hyenas. But I do see your point! Direwolves and neanderthals were much bigger and were built to hunt/eat major fauna compared to homosapiens/wolves who were smaller and better adapted for basically any game at all!

[@neolexiousneolexian6079]

@@oeeveemkittygfreak Oh gods, it's the Hell Ants fiasco all over again.

[@wcdeich4]

@@oeeveemkittygfreak yes, and both modern humans and wolves are able to engage in long distance persistence hunting. The Neanderthals might have been more "pounce - pursuit" hunters, given their muscular but stocky build. As Aenocyon dirus found out, that is a very difficult niche to subsist on to when you start to get competition. I'm not saying Neanderthals couldn't adapt with technology, but it is hard to adapt fast enough, especially living in small clans with limited ability to exchange ideas. Then again, maybe some of them did adapt. They persisted long enough to interbreed with us, so some of their genes survive today.

[@Ispeakthetruthify]

@@oeeveemkittygfreak Dire wolves(you are correct in them not being wolves) and Neanderthals, were NOT much bigger than modern wolves or Homo Sapiens. Modern grey wolves are actually taller than dire wolves, but dire wolves were just more robustly built with shorter legs. The average Neanderthal was much shorter than the average Homo Sapien. Now they were indeed stronger, and more robustly built, but they were not overall larger. Think of a human compared to a chimpanzee. The human is larger overall, but pound for pound, the chimp is stronger in a smaller frame. And yes...Neanderthals were too specialized for their own good. We humans, are the ultimate generalists. Thus giving us a MAJOR advantage in long term survival.

[@SweetBerryWine3000]

This is both incredibly enlightening, and incredibly sad.

[@hollyodii5969]

I just *LOVE* Eons’ videos about the history of early humans! Thank you!

[@danielt.3152]

This makes total sense, as a hunter, I could see where winter stressed animals for example a harsh winter can stress pheasants meaning they need more calories but due to snow or ice they can’t get at food sources. All that makes it hard to make it through winter. I always said it all comes down to calories used vs calories consumed and in winter as a animal you better have it figured out or you will not survive

[@danielt.3152]

@NDP Variety Yeah you got that. Even the hunter burns calories, I will tell you one thing you hunt waterfowl all day from dawn until dusk in cold weather, blizzards, snow or walk all day long ...you are going to be very hungry and I will add this if you go all day with no action, you get pretty willing to turn nothing into something meaning taking a long shot that you might not otherwise take if there was plenty of action and your game bag is near limit. A few days of no luck hunting, add in severe cold and the human mind starts making some serious get food calculus.

[@GeckoHiker]

This is where storing tubers and seeds over the winter will help keep you at home eating roast tubers and porridge to stay warm and survive. Hunting in a harsh winter environment is an act of desperation if you are already hungry.

[@eronpowell6008]

Shoutout to the amazing artists for all these pictures. Really is the icing on the cake of an amazing informational video!!

[@mehere8038]

tbh, I'm kinda getting sick of that same picture being used in EVERY single video they do on neanderthals

[@LEDewey_MD]

Great episode as always! Everyone here knows that Homo sapiens engaged in cannibalism too,...right?

[@canchero724]

Engaged? Cannibalism is still a thing today in tribal communities. Also happened often during famines and wars in civilization and will happen in the famines and wars to come.

[@Kabup2]

@@canchero724 Also in plane crashes in the Andes.

[@Kanitoxx]

@@Kabup2 that's a really dark reference, but true

[@cupguin]

@@Name-cz5jj there's no proof if all you know any human history is what you learnt as a child. I feel bad how many people think they're experts on subjects they've barely scratched the surface of.

[@natureboy5990]

Not like Neanderthals though. 2 different cases of cannibalism with H.Sapien it's a weird mental fixation to tasting human flesh. With H. Neanderthals it was a desperate means of survival caused by a weak adaptation and natural selection.

[@CitizenMio]

3:30 Gimli was right all along! They really were natural sprinters, very dangerous over short distances.

[@asriellian3058]

Exactly what I thought lol

[@random_stylzz]

Love your hosting and the videos! Please keep them coming :)))

[@MattygFTW]

Great episode! Always look forward to these!

[@petersmythe6462]

Another issue is that Sapiens had atlatls and other technological advantages that would probably reduce the number of prey. This could be a simple matter of predator competition. Right, if there were 4000 kcals a day, Sapiens overhunting might drop that to 2500 and reduce the meat fraction so that the Neanderthals can only realistically get 1500.

[@sami3566]

And neanderthal can't use bow

[@dunringill1747]

Something I always found interesting: (1) Assuming accurate population estimates of the Neanderthal & Cro-Magnon populations over time. (2) Accounting for genetic drift over time. (3) Accounting for up to 4-5% Neanderthal DNA found in some modern humans:. This suggests "Neanderthal extinction" was not real extinction per say but actually a nearly 100% genetic absorption of Neanderthal population via interbreeding.

[@naolucillerandom5280]

*absorbed neanderthal genes to extinction*

[@hainleysimpson1507]

NaoLucille Well we do outnumber them to a ridiculous extent. And it used to be normal to kill off the men and boys and taking all the virgin and still fertile girls during raids or war time. This is the best time to be alive for many humans. Atleast now killing off the old and the men is frowned upon.

[@skyem5250]

"These Neanderthals were probably cannibalized!" *smiles politely then shudders in shock* Kallie does such a great job presenting this show

[@ianmorrison9480]

I really enjoy these videos, I really enjoy watching and listening to all the lecturers, I especially enjoyed this video, the laughter was so authentic. Lovely.

[@kellydalstok8900]

Maybe it was a case of desperation on the part of the cannibals, like those plane crash survivors in the Andes in 1972.

[@elmurcis1]

Correct if wrong but I do remember somewhere that inter-species contact was one-sided most of times as Neanderthals babies born bigger than human, thus making it very *deadly* for human women to carry/born it while other way it was much much easier.

[@BonaparteBardithion]

If that's the only factor, it may have gone both ways and only the decendants of one side survived to pass on genes.

[@Carlos-ln8fd]

This is so sad. Thanks for such a great video.

[@troypowers9578]

You talk so pleasant and respectable it is a pleasure to hear you speak keep up the good work

[@XaviRonaldo0]

It's such a great shame we had no written records back then. Would be so interesting to really for sure understand what happened.

[@peabrain6872]

How would we translate

[@iranjackheelson]

The first encounter between humans and neanderthals must have been amazing. Anyone know of any really good movies/documentaries that detail the encounter?

[@rachaelginyard1126]

I love this channel so much!

[@diegoreckholder945]

This is easily one of my favorite episodes

[@Daniel_cheems]

Also probably Neanderthals were more adapted at eating large quantities of meat and their body was demanding it. Humans may have been more adapted to an omnivorous diet, which would have opened more survival avenues.

[@jugadug]

The environment of the neanderthal was rough even with all their physical adaptations to cold and dry weather living and survival they found it hard living doesn't seem that they were particularly numerous either, they could not move beyond a certain point in the environment it is very hard to imagine the environment of the neanderthal when nothing really similarly exists. they were adapted to burn through and absorb more calories from the food they ate within a harsh environment.

[@sagacious03]

Neat video! Thanks for uploading!

[@larsgottlieb]

Yay Callie! Every time I see you it brings a smile to my face (o:

[@beto1744]

I’d love a video about how we developed thumbs

[@sebastianbolt7886]

?!?!?! Maybe thumbs were first.... Then fingers.

[@limiv5272]

You probably mean opposable thumbs, right?

[@Mynameischef]

@@limiv5272 i think they mean disposable thumbs

[@beto1744]

@@limiv5272 yeah I meant opposable thumbs, sorry.

[@MarioPetrinovich]

This is the thing that creatures that live on trees have. Even koala has this. Only, it has two opposable thumbs, ;) . So, this is an very old adaptation, this is a primate thing, not solely hominoid thing.

[@TheOneWhoMightBe]

The slight adaptations between the species would make a difference in competitive sports had they survived to the present day. Weight lifting, wrestling, sprinting, hammer throws all dominated by Neanderthals, while high jump, pentathlon, marathons etc belonged to us.

[@Matthews_Media]

Loving the new animations!

[@Lycancass89]

Loved the art in this episode. Also, that necklace is so cool!

[@origaminosferatu3357]

Fascinating. As someone who burns through food like crazy I feel the Neanderthal's pain. Cannot get over the absolute horror of that poor starving family being eaten though. I'd like to think this was part of a burial rite by their own community rather than horrible murder-cannibalism but ... times were tough I guess.

[@mehere8038]

yeh, there's nothing that says it wasn't, other than maybe the fact that the whole family appears to have been eaten together & I can't imagine rituals would have included eating those that died from disease. In reality though, more ancient homosapians ate family members than enemies, Maoris are about the only ones I can think of that ate their enemy & even then it was done as a mark of respect & a way of drawing their spirit in to strengthen their own, rather than just mindless "looks like food", so presumably this is the more likely scenario for neanderthals too

[@fancydeer]

Could the cannibalism be a type of ritual? Like consuming the dead to take on the dead person's virtues/characteristics or to have the dead "live on" inside them? Or could it have been something conquering groups did to their enemies? Or a punishment for a crime?

[@LuisAldamiz]

I think in this case the starvation cause seems quite demonstrated because the bodies had all signs of famine.

[@princeshortie7907]

its more likely that neanderthal cannibalism (if and when) was for survival or simply part of their diet, mostly because culture had only just begun to develop within neanderthals, however, it is possible that it became part of some neanderthals ritualistic mortuary rights. ultimately, it depends on what site youre looking at. we have no hard evidence that states that *all* neanderthals were cannibalis.

[@scraps7624]

God these videos are so amazing, great work from all the team at EONS

[@-spook-2992]

Aw yess. A new Eons video!

[@capnstewy55]

Cannibalism always makes for an interesting story. I wonder if it is possible to find ancient prions?

[@CatastrophicDisease]

Should we really be referring to Sapiens as "humans" vis-a-vis Neanderthals? Neanderthals were humans too - indeed, this very channel did a great video about the humanity of Neanderthals.

[@princeshortie7907]

usually when we refer to humans, the basic idea is that we are speaking of the modern human which is homo sapiens sapiens, however homo sapien being our direct ancestors are also considered modern humans where as neanderthals are a branch of the hominid evolution before us while neanderthals are humans and we share the same genus, this is where the differences begin to change neanderthals are Homo neanderthalensis modern humans are Homo sapiens/Homo sapiens sapiens

[@Ispeakthetruthify]

Homo Sapiens are modern humans. Humans that began to disperse out of Africa between 100,000 to 125,000 years ago. Homo Neanderthalensis, is an older species of human, that left Africa much earlier, and settled in Europe and Western Asia. "Homo" means man, or human. This can be applied to various human species, and our human ancestors.

[@kumisz2]

Congrats on the 2 million subs!

[@judsonwall8615]

What an excellent video. I’ve always struggled to conceptualize us outcompeting the Neanderthals. They were pretty much just like us. But physiology contributing to being outcompetes makes total sense. I had no problem making the connection for large animals that went extinct, like Megladon. But for some reason I had never considered it with Neanderthals. Fantastic video 👏

[@tinman8972]

Another factor that may have tipped the quest for food in favor of homo sapien may have been hunting strategy. Homo sapien evolved as a basically hairless persistence predator, able to travel vast distances and simply wearing out their prey. Neanderthal being more built for bursts of speed but not endurance may have been at a disadvantage.

[@Ispeakthetruthify]

And we were able to successfully hunt large, dangerous prey from a distance. Neanderthals put themselves are greater risks by having to take on large, dangerous prey from close range. If you have 5 hunters in your party, who are able to finish a hunt relatively unharmed...compared to 5 hunters who may have 2 of the party killed, and another severely injured, it's easy to figure out which is a better long term strategy.

[@ivymike2691]

Power wins in the short term, efficiency wins in the long run.

[@Hybred]

Good video PBS! Great narrator

[@jewdd1989]

Love learning about our cousins!

[@princeshortie7907]

im an anthropology student that has just finished doing some extensive research for a paper on neanderthal cannibalism, specifically for the moula-guercy site in france so if anyone would like to ask questions feel free to ask!

[@michelles9897]

Cool

[@aryyancarman705]

guersome hehe

[@wonderingheights]

The grimace at :32 tho 😂 made my day

[@TragoudistrosMPH]

Lol, I was looking for the McDonald's Grimmace, not an expression... because Hamburgers lol

[@spyrofrost9158]

5:10 "And there's no grocery store in town." I don't even think there's a town!

[@hassenmh2850]

I love her voice so smooth and relaxing

[@nilshendrikeckert8761]

Could you do an episode about the history of Hyenas? With the cave hyena that's pictured in the video, the running hyenas if north america, dinocrocuta, and the humble aardwolf of today, and them being my favourite animal, I think that would be very interesting

[@doggo7078]

I feel like asking Emily from MinuteEarth would be faster, legit she loves hyenas

[@jameslong9921]

@@doggo7078 Your name suggests you were the right person to respond to this post.

[@the_gaming_hyena]

Please do a video on dinocrocuta!

[@josephskinner2958]

hands down one of the best episodes on this channel. Thanks guys:)

[@abishemui8278]

Great Video!!!

[@charleshicks604]

Your my favorite KZbin channel!! Bitter sweet. Like having a favorite TV show and having to wait a week ( or three 😭) until the next episode. Love you guys. Wish you guys could make videos more often.

[@jacobhuff3748]

I remember watching a documentary about this, from bone samples taken Neanderthal had a diet with more red meat which was more taxing on local resources when compared to homosapien more varied diet which consisted of fish, plants and what ever they could hunt.

[@stevesstrings5243]

Great stuff!

[@msaditu]

Kallie, you are the best! 😍

[@ryan49805]

Thank for breaking that down in burger units 😆

[@mascadadelpantion8018]

It's always interesting to see what type of weather human beings once existed

[@sheriherrick4420]

I watched my 1st video from this channel a couple weeks ago and somehow they've found a way to make learning more interesting! Thank you

[@iammyriad71]

The picture of the neanderthal with the spear (1.49) Was taken from. The Viennese Natural History Museum.

[@TheSaneHatter]

Fuel efficiency won out over horsepower: draw your own conclusions.

[@makaliwe4218]

imagine if neanderthals still exist, maybe our course of religion, culture and racial problem would be even bigger

[@ruthlesslistener]

I kind of wonder if interbreeding with people ended up being the main reason why the neanderthals going extinct- if a hybrid inherited the human metabolic rate, then they would have a fitness advantage over their pureblood relatives, which meant they'd outcompete them and breed with more hybrids/pureblood homo sapiens, eventually leading to full integration. Ik they said it was likely a mix of both, but its an interesting concept to think about

[@DVOPSEC]

Love these paleo videos! Keep them coming!

[@sapphirII]

I wonder if they started agriculture, if they might have survived.

[@Adelesprings]

It's likely that western europe saw several localized extinctions of groups, due to climate alone, with modern human population reservoirs situated in the levant and eastern mediterannean coast, allowing this pop to come back a little bit better than neanderthals during interstadial conditons. The consumption of other humans is in no way limited to the late middle paleolithic, it's been happening for hundreds of ka in western europe (see Arago and Atapuerca). It is hard to consider that alone as definite proof of food scarcity to the level of species extinction. And that's not even including the many potential contacts that resulted in interbreeding between the different homo species which point to higher rate of neanderthal genes in early modern humans in europe (see Oase cave), some of that didn't get to modern humans pointing to, again, extinction of the first modern human lineages to set foot in europe. TL DR : not so clear who pushed who to starvation :)

[@user-mt2uj8xl2u]

But just letting you know I am a huge fan. I love Eons and their superb narrators.

[@jayneeojeda5677]

Thanks!

[@RussellSlam]

I love these EON presentations. I've watched so many of them that I have noticed changes in aging. But what doesn't seem to age are their graphics. I don't know in how many different presentations I've seen one group standing next to the body of a rhinoceros while seeming to wave to another group, etc. I don't how difficult it would be to upgrade these graphics, but there are a lot of designers out there and they should be able to up with some.

[@norarivkis2513]

They commission at least some of their art, but paleoart is expensive, since it takes all the work of any normal painting, plus all the research necessary to make good decisions about what the people or animals in question might have looked like and what they would have done. Also background research -- what kind of plants would have been in that place and time? What sorts of birds or wandering fauna drifted through the far corners of the scene? No wonder when they've bought one, they use it for a long time. The Neanderthal family in this one was a fairly recent Julio Lacerda, but I don't know whether it was done specifically for them, or done on spec and then licensed from the artist afterwards. I do know that Lacerda has done some commissions specifically for EON because that's how I found EON in the first place; he mentioned doing some work for them in a Patreon post, so I came over to see what it was about.

[@emb7854]

You mean you didn't just love the cycling through the same six images for a ten minute presentation?? lol

[@chrishb7074]

Malnutrition, cannibalism, species competition, challenging climates, and still all the El Sidrón family could get nice haircuts. Maybe they visited the 'B' Ark hairdressers. (Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

[@TragoudistrosMPH]

Wouldn't you want to look hot so your prince/princess charming could whisk you away from your poverty? Like a Disney story!

[@StevelaFrench]

Read my mind.

[@boygenius538_8]

Lol I thought they liked surprisingly well kept

[@kuitaranheatmorus9932]

This was amazing Ebons video

[@janporkpie]

Another very interesting presentation - but please drop the music whilst the Presenter is speaking.

[@sarahdike30]

CAN you do a megelania vidoe its a anceint komodo dragon

[@rosiehawtrey]

Look up crocodile monitors - Cross between a lizard and a chainsaw but very beautiful.

[@georganatoly6646]

assuming everyone participating were onboard to interbreed, that suggests they're similar enough to also communicate in a meaningful way, begs the question how different were they really

[@BonaparteBardithion]

My cat can meaningfully communicate basic desires (food, attention, assistance with access). Two groups of humans would probably have formed at the very least complex non-verbal communications for when they interacted.

[@makai5749]

Cool video hope everything is good 👍

[@laurenball9299]

I wrote an essay on this topic like 2 weeks ago, this video would’ve been so handy lmao. Love it tho super interesting topic

[@Ethan-cz8xq]

In other words, we survived in part because we were more environmentally sustainable?

[@ambermurray2496]

The opposite is more likely. Mega fauna extinction is closely linked to the homosapiens migration. Whenever we migrated to a new area we see 75-90% decrease in the population in mega fauna. Our ancestors were really efficient hunters.

[@phoenix4977]

We survived because we could exploit nature more efficiently than any other species around, including close relatives like them

[@TheNinjaFam]

They act Ike all humans are the same proportions. Guaranteed there are modern humans that have the same proportions or even stockier than those fossils. If fertile offspring was produced, then they are similar enough to be the same species. Many of us have Neanderthal ancestors = not extinct.

[@cactusaur5622]

Yes but the difference between us and them is they naturally are that muscular and majority of their species are like that. While with us only a select few would be as muscular as them. And also I dont think them only contributing literally not even 5% of our DNA counts as them not being extinct. Your basically saying since the average neanderthal = the outlier of us, were the same. And that contributing any DNA at all counts as still being alive even though there are many distinct differences between us and them. Plus if only 10 of the average Neanderthals needs 3650 more hamburgers a year than the average human, then I think they are quite a bit different.

[@LordEvan5]

I was rereading Clan of the Cave Bear when I noticed this was up

[@lostinchineseroom]

f. best audio background. besides everything else ) thanks!!

[@brothermine2292]

If homo sapiens and neanderthals lived together and shared food equally, this could have been fatal to neanderthals and beneficial to homo sapiens due to their different basal metabolisms.

[@keylanoslokj1806]

Explain please

[@kaiseramadeus233]

@@keylanoslokj1806 neanderthals need to eat more to survive. They were already living in near starvation conditions before humans showed up. Once humans entered the picture, neanderthals would need to share food. This benefits humans because they have more access to food and hunters, but it hurts neanderthals because they need to work more and eat less due to their interactions with humans. Essentially, humans took much needed food from neanderthals. Neanderthals also would have worked with humans to hunt, which needs they need even more food since they're built different.

[@keylanoslokj1806]

@@kaiseramadeus233 why they didn't genocide humans? We did that to not a few species... .

[@TheAdrian229]

@@keylanoslokj1806 there is reason why our spicies is the genocide one, and only one left. Evolution gave us traits that make us ultimate genocide machines, unluckly for the planet