Why this Screw Drive is Really Weird

Will an Archimedes Screw work if the screw stays still, but the tube it's in turns? I set out to find out what happens, and I also looked for other commercial uses for this application. I 3D printed my screw which worked really well without any support material. After that it was just a matter of testing the Archimedes Screw drive to see what would happen as the tube was rotated in various ways. Initial results looked good so I went on to motorise the screw drive.
Tom Scott's video: • Mr Olds' remarkable el...
#Physics #WeirdPhysics
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XROBOTS
Former toy designer, current KZbin maker and general robotics, electrical and mechanical engineer, I’m a fan of doing it yourself and innovation by trial and error. My channel is where I share some of my useful and not-so-useful inventions, designs and maker advice. Iron Man is my go-to cosplay, and 3D printing can solve most issues - broken bolts, missing parts, world hunger, you name it.
XRobots is the community around my content where you can get in touch, share tips and advice, and more build FAQs, schematics and designs are also available.

[@jamesbruton]

openDog is back doing some mapping with ROS next week, Patrons and KZbin Channel Members have it already!

[@zoombahh]

TL/DR: put some vertical bars inside the tube to prevent balls from rolling back down, archimedes screw only works because its tilted and cant just flow down the screw like the balls. you're relying on the friction between the cylinder and balls, which is fine for grain or cereal that dont flow down the spiral. but with smooth atomic units like these balls a vertical bar or "cleat" in the tube would greatly increase the flowrate by preventing the balls from rolling back down. thats what i thought you were getting to with the vertical bars at 0:17 , but it never came in the whole video. please flip the red bits inside so they fill the gap between the tube ID and screw OD and youre golden.

[@Bibibosh]

Put numbers on the balls

[@joparsons20]

So this is basically how the dough ball roller at little Caesars works.....

[@gonzostwin1]

Make the chute go back into the bowl and it will self feed

[@purboyy]

Lazy susan

[@travisknee3027]

It's 100% going to work, it's called an olds elevator thank you Tom Scott!

[@ShamWerks]

10:11

[@isi_ko404]

Yes, das that Video to

[@RiverMersey]

Patent expired: patents.google.com/patent/US7314131B2/en

[@jesterblackguarde8464]

They also usually have a stationary "wiper" in the sump, to increase efficiency.

[@njorsing]

@@RiverMersey adjusted expiration to 2024

[@andreyrumming6842]

I remember seeing a grain farmer using this same method. If you didn't know, grain when it's powdered or freefloating is SUPER explosive and flammable. Turns out this design prevents air from building up in the screw, not only making the flammability problem go away, but also making the screw more efficient overall (Because the entire screw is filled with grain). There are pros and cons to the design, but it's interesting to do experiments like this and see what happens :) Edit: Just watched more of the video. That Tom scott one is the EXACT one I was talking about!

[@SCU3A_S7EVE]

Dutch taught me this while we was rescuing Javier from them fellers in Guarma. Dutch always has a plan.

[@christaphersimmons2216]

I lived in a town of 350 in dead nowhere Iowa I watched first hand the concrete shoot blocks away when the olds broke and the grain bin went critical

[@JKTCGMV13]

I was thinking of that same video while watching this one

[@Redact63Lluks]

The tube turning is useful but the bottom feed turning is the most critical feature

[@HDfoodie]

Right. In fact, nothing would have to turn at all if we could somehow ensure that balls were continuously being fed in at the bottom. We just created a Giant plastic Ball Screw!!!

[@stalkinghawk9244]

Are you sure?. hm, here most definitely however just shoving in grain for example with a cylinder might just result in crushing. I think that the friction with the side walls becomes very important the finer the particles are.

[@HDfoodie]

@@stalkinghawk9244 It could be easily tested by continuously feeding the balls at the bottom without the tube turning. The difference between this build and the Olds Elevator is the tolerances between the screw and the outer tube. In this design, there is only enough space for a single column of balls, therefore they don't require the outer tube to turn, just enough pressure from underneath to be pushed up the screw. Using smaller balls would be a better approximation. Maybe marbles?

[@stalkinghawk9244]

@@HDfoodie hm also should test powder of sorts, since it has massive friction problem around corners. like pushing powder through a pipe with a bend at worst it compacts itself.

[@chrismofer]

yeah it would be far more effective and not need the pressure of the scoops on the bottom if the tube had ribs running up it that prevented the ball from rolling down. then it'd be like 1:1 rotation to ball movement, instead of spinning the tube much faster than the balls and hoping that some friction here and there shimmies them upward.

[@tzisorey]

"If you think you know, put your comment below" +1 to the list of viewers who've seen Tom Scott's episode. ;)

[@serbianspaceforce6873]

where my tom squad at

[@gracielaw382]

@@serbianspaceforce6873 Earth

[@Braddles1802]

If I had a dollar for every time James says "lazy susan"

[@jaredhelder]

$10. You would be rich!!

[@ArtSurvivesArtist]

He reminds me of that 5th, dorky member of the Beatles who got left out. Maybe he could voice Thomas the Dorky Tank Engine.

[@calvinbedell]

you would have $10

[@ghostnike901]

Some where in the world, there's a woman named Susan watching this video who is very upset

[@OrangeC7]

@@ghostnike901 Either that or she's having a good laugh

[@richardoglesby2997]

Totally should design the top part to feed back into the hopper and have yourself a good piece of kinetic art like a water fountain type thing

[@tjriggs4696]

Dude! I was just gonna comment the same thing!

[@D-S-9]

I'd seen the other video so I guess I'd cheated by knowing the answer? Very cool demonstration, and if you had the top chute eject back into the basin then you could leave it running continuously at a show or something.

[@jamesbruton]

The balls will go onto the next stays, coming up in a couple of weeks...

[@Bean-Time]

Why does your name have a thing

[@desk-kun]

@@Bean-Time he's a channel member

[@tormodhag6824]

I got to ask because the archimedes screw always confused me. I always wondered why doesnt the marbles roll down the spiral or the water flow down? If Im not completely wrong or stupid, dont they have to be at an angle?

[@Lotharyx]

That’s actually a great fluid dynamics demonstration! Notice how the elevator loses efficiency as the “fluid” (the bulk ping-pong balls) around the inlet starts to move along with the scooper. James uses his hands as baffles, but fixed baffles inside the sump would improve the efficiency by a great deal.

[@Silverwing2112]

It does, Tom Scott did a video about it.

[@ShamWerks]

9:54

[@botonduller]

Maybe you should've watched the entire video before commenting...

[@patrickgardner2204]

@@botonduller he did say to comment below.

[@karyjas1]

Now imagine the screw turns too, but in opposite direction. Wouldnt that be even faster?

[@peitz.design]

yes

[@holyravioli5795]

Would that not just cancel out?

[@peitz.design]

@@holyravioli5795 Only if the screw is turning in the same direction. The important thing is the relative speed between the screw and the casing. The bigger the difference the faster the outcome

[@ZNotFound]

Stop him. He's too powerful.

[@renrutmat]

The important point is the minimal damage to the items being transported. If the screw moves there is more damage to the items. This was first proposed by a Mr Olds to minimise damage to grains. Turning the screw as well may increase speed but may increase damage to the items being transferred.

[@beefy256]

"What we need is more balls" Heh.

[@gonzalogutierrez510]

Heh

[@kameronstogner9874]

Heh

[@ajme_]

Heh

[@beefy256]

@Nathan Ho 😥

[@79bald]

Can’t believe no one said “That’s what said”

[@beans1327]

Just waiting for hasbro or fishersprice to steal this

[@avejst]

Great project, just for the new year. Thanks for sharing you experience in this time🎆👍😀

[@douglasmaclean5836]

awesome video James !

[@icingdeath]

I liked how you narrated and built it as if winging it as you go without a plan, and everything admirably just fitting and ending up working together. Literally build as you go. Well done!

[@mentalmelt]

Guess you like being deceived ;)

[@dragon3x560]

me in the beginning : What no of course not Me at the end: sir, it seems you've used DECEPTION

[@isthissiddh]

just add a thin vertical extrusion on the internal circumference of the tube and it will push the balls physically, preventing them from rolling back down

[@JeroenBouwens]

My thought exactly. Without extrusions like you propose it's impossible to empty the sump, as the balls only rise up due to back pressure from new balls being pushed into the tube, which only works with very light balls like those ping-pong balls, but not with heavier ones such as golf-balls.

[@cheeto4493]

I came looking the comments to see if any other had mentioned it.

[@kal9001]

@@cheeto4493 I just said it myself in a reply to someone. I'm amazed how far I needed to scroll to find it, and I'm amazed James didn't do this already. Seems SO obvious, and it was even shown in the CAD model. We're either being played with, or James got tunnel vision on this and couldn't see it.

[@CooperDuper3000]

*pff* look at this guy... his videos are amazing! Thank you james bruton for making these educational, inspiring and fascinating videos! ❤👍

[@ezangrobotsvideos9286]

Always great videos - keep it up -

[@gfloyd2002]

I would love to see the upper chute feed the balls back into the hopper at the bottom, making a self-feeding machine once you get it started.

[@jdhannan]

No it's much better to direct the balls away and then put them back in by hand 😂

[@TheAstronomyDude]

It's fascinating that in the thousands of years since Archimedes it took an Australian in 2009 to figure out you can spin the cylinder.

[@niallmorland]

He's English...

[@haack90]

@@niallmorland The Olds Elevator inventor, not James Bruton.

[@niallmorland]

@@haack90 ohh my bad dude it's been a long day

[@yannickurbach5654]

Well you can't in an Archimedes' screw. A proper Archimedes' screw works with gravity rather than friction, so you'd have to spin the gravity field.

[@Gottenhimfella]

@@yannickurbach5654 Indeed. The beginning of the video misrepresents what an Archimedes' screw is, and how it works. It is NOT fitted in a tube, and it has to lie tilted, at more than the helix angle of the thread, or the water will flow downhill and out the bottom. In this (vertical) case with balls, the balls would roll downhill in the absence of a tube.

[@ThrunRC]

Great Video and great content :-) Thanks for sharing :-)

[@danielbender4327]

suggestion for a follow-up: the same screw and tube, but the “obvious” way with the screw turning instead. What would you have to do differently to get the balls to lifr at the same rate.

[@martindalby3941]

Yes it does work, saw on Tom Scott's channel.

[@Johnny5Toy]

Came here to say the same

[@postualin6551]

This gives me a feling that You Have a new project in mind.

[@RubixB0y]

Why just a feeling... he tells you that he's building a "great ball contraption" out of 3d printed parts instead of Lego.

[@swamihuman9395]

Great stuff. Was hilarious seeing your test apparatus keep getting more and more involved! :D Zero resale value, though :D Keep up the awesome content. Looking forward to seeing your 'great ball contraption'...

[@bowieinc]

My favorite. Please do more like these.

[@sawyerklegr]

Was thinking the whole time that it is quite similar to a lego GBC, when you showed it at the end I was so happy! 😂 You will definitely enjoy making it, I personally build lego GBC modules and it is so enjoyable to try to solve the challenges involved with creating them.

[@shadowcard6923]

It works with enough friction with the medium being transported or it’ll be highly inefficient. Edit: The sump added later in the video acts as the screw in this case, with less screw threads so to speak, which uses the other balls as the delivery

[@WistrelChianti]

Great to hear more engineering concept stuff on the way. My most recent project has been on trying to get as many different actuators going off a single motor. Been a really fun design challenge just to get the motion down. Still going on the design though to turn it into something that is actually printable/assemblable

[@mattw7949]

I love your vids. Always entertaining.

[@verargertesspielen4629]

Reminds me of the german based rollercoaster "Euro Mir" with its special lifthill. Nice to Ride!

[@oddjobbobb]

You might have let the “catcher” at the top feed the balls into the reservoir and it would go and go and go and...

[@iPrint3D]

Love the "simpler" videos James!

[@Dobry69]

great video!

[@melcrose]

3d Fuel ROCKS. The pla-pro is insanely good.

[@AlRoderick]

While it doesn't seem like it, this was invented so recently that Mr Olds still holds a patent, so if anybody's thinking of incorporating a mechanism like this into anything you sell watch out. With either this style or a conventional screw conveyor, when it's perfectly vertical it's hard to deal with free rolling material like ping pong balls or ball bearings, ideally you want something that would sit still if you placed it on a ramp the same angle as your screw. it's the introduction of new material under pressure at the bottom that's pushing everything up, the screw just supports the weight of the material already on its way up the tube, because otherwise you'd have to work against the weight of the entire column of material to keep those scoops moving.

[@NinoJoel]

How the hell is he holding a patent to somthing that is literaly over 2000 years old ?

[@daanlutkewillink3893]

@@NinoJoel Because the original invention had the screw turning instead of the tube around it. It's really weird that nobody thought of it earlier, but yeah. lol

[@EvileDik]

@@daanlutkewillink3893 I question its patent-ability (unless Olds has some special non Archemedian feature) , all 4 designs* have been in use for millennia in the middle east, outer tube rotating is popular as it's easier to attach motive force(aka donkey)to the outer cylinder than the inner screw. But the US will patent/copyright anything that isn't bolted down. *Moving screw, moving cylinder, counter rotating cylinder screw, and co-rotating cylinder screw. I went and read the patent application, and the Olds elevator is a very specific variant, with particular reference to vertical orientation, a sweeper arm and specific clearance between screw and tube. The patent itself quotes prior art patents going back to at least 1988. It is not a patent for the concept of a motive tube with a stationary screw.

[@Rooey129]

Great video.

[@alexstone691]

I havne't seen anyone 3d print stuff so professionally looking and with such volume

[@Forcemaster2000]

You should have had your "output" at the top feeding back into the tray at the bottom, that way you wouldn't have had to keep refilling it yourself!

[@robo1540]

im gonna say itll work just because everything functions relatively to each other and who cares if its the tube rotating or the screw

[@tahirsutube]

Really interesting video James ❤️🤔

[@danielrisueno8003]

Loved this

[@bairnonessie]

Olds Elevator, made in what is now a museum(I believe) in the city I live in.

[@drsmegs]

Your gonna get much better results if you tilt the screw and tube even just a little.

[@AndrewBlack343]

You do with the original Archimedes screw design (where the screw turns) I don't see an advantage of doing so when you rotate the cylinder.

[@Edwinthebreadwin]

More videos like this where you are just making cool stuff!

[@zer001]

I love your Videos!

[@w0lf-m4n]

Whel yes it's simple physics turning the screw or tube is ultimately the same thing in perspective of the thing tour trying to lift up.

[@buggsy5]

Similar, but not identical. For example: When the screw turns, the balls resting on the screw have momentum due to the screw rotation. When the tube turns, the balls in the base have momentum from the rotation. Another example: When the screw turns, the friction between the balls and screw resist the movement of the balls upwards, while the friction between the balls and the tube aid the movement. When the tube turns, the opposite is true. In both cases, the balls entering the base have to contain enough kinetic energy to overcome any momentum fighting against the balls being moved upward. You can see what happens when a new ball is not trying to enter the cylinder - the balls start to roll/slide down the screw under the force of gravity. The physics is simple, but calculating the magnitudes of the forces involved (even as a general equation) is much more complex. Note that the balls can only go so high, before balls can no longer be forced into the tube.

[@sprocket2cog]

Wintergarten " I'm building a musical marble machine " James "hold my beer"

[@Technicallywoodworking]

Very cool. Makes me think of using a drill bit on a lathe.

[@patrickwinterbourne8516]

Awesome project

[@jameswarrenpersonal4720]

Love this example. I was wondering, what do you do with your old prints. Do you recycle them? If so I would be interested in finding out how.

[@WakarimasenKa]

Aah thanks for finishing the video with the Tom Scott clip.. I had paused the video to search for it since I remembered seeing some video about it.. But I thought it was Smarter Every Day talking about grain bins.. But nope.

[@tenchuu007]

*stares hungrily in hippo

[@nattsurfaren]

7:48 This is probably how an ice cream maker work. When it starts to harden only then it gets pushed up. Please make an ice cream maker video James :)

[@iopfarmer]

The contact angle between the screw flank and the balls (relatively to the pipe surface) is important. I think it would raise the effectiveness if the tangent at the contact point tend to line up with the pipe axis (30° for example, instead of 70° here?). this way will the driving force at the contact point be higher.

[@ryanmcgee4808]

I wonder if you added a rubber / sticky material to the inside of the tube, if it would fill up faster. I'm assuming that's why the grain feeders seem to work better; more contact area / friction on the sides of the tube.

[@davestinyworkshopotherprojects]

very interesting, thanks :-)

[@marcanthonykami5473]

All these years on and you still have the trusty old Taz 3d printer 👍 keep up the great work buddy 👌

[@GoldKnightProduction]

So the thing stopping this design from being extra efficient is that there's no groove on the tube for the balls to slot into. If the balls could only slide vertically upwards along the track, then the screw would provide the upwards force as it spun.

[@RichardGray353]

I'm pretty sure my grandma gave me a toy when I was a kid that did something similar to this. I remember being a little fascinated that the screw didn't move.

[@TurkishKS]

Really nice build. Since it's demonstrative, a clear catch and channel/tube that returns the balls to the feed would've been a nice touch, saving you the hassle of reloading.

[@majorjohnson8001]

I'd forgotten I'd seen the Tom Scott video but my initial reaction was "well if the screw turns and it works, then yeah, turning the housing instead would also work. Because which one's moving is relative."

[@dylanarcher827]

Awesome 3d printing maker skills :)

[@markhorstmeier8734]

I would love to see you take some of the mechanisms from "507 mechanical movements" and 3D print them. There are several accounts that have animated the CAD but it would be great to see them in action. I would pay to have those especially if they were parametric or scalable

[@JBBrickFanatic]

Very good.

[@jordanabendroth6458]

I've seen the Tom Scott video on this so I'm going to go with yes

[@AstroBlakeD]

hey, an olds elevator! such fun. things you learn in/from farm towns

[@aronslegogbcs1057]

very nice stuff, i also do GBC modules which is like this, i spotted my gbc layout video when you showed the search results for lego gbc

[@MrAtalon]

As an individual piece you could just attach a slide to the top catcher to feed the bottom but if it is going to be part of a larger system than that works to. Can't wait to see what you come up with.

[@zfxpedals]

Dear KZbin, Why did you recommend this video for me? I'm fascinated and grateful for the recommendation

[@medlimakar]

The LEGO Great Ball Contraption community has been using a similar mekanism for just shy of ten years; it has a stationary screw on the outside and a rotating column with vertical bars on it on the inside. It's known as a 'Spiral Lift module'.

[@RussellNelson]

Wow, you have some balls to do that!

[@littlepastelkitten]

I love 3d printing because you can just make cool and random stuff like this

[@ABRBD]

For a school project in grade 4??? 5??? I made an Archimedes screw with PVC pipes and some tubing to make the screw part, and it actually worked. I'm pretty sure I got an A+

[@bbogdanmircea]

I tried a similar system for my ping pong robot. Your system has the drawback that it need lots of balls just to feel up! Of course your design is amazing as usual. I used a spiral disc and 40 mm PVC tube to make a recirculation system for the ping pong robot.

[@amanlikestrains]

That's a good build for education with the clear tube 👍 Being able to see the balls move up makes me think something like that would look cool on Wintergatens Marble Machine X

[@NomaddUK]

James, what a load of balls mate!

[@wscamel226]

My answer to question at the begining: Definitely yes, it turns really fast.

[@abyss9447]

youtube subtitles: [applause] the video: balls moving up the screw

[@bashkillszombies]

"There's quite a few advantages," inserts main problem with silos. Yet is still not used in silos. :P I'm guessing the cost is prohibitive, and people prefer to risk the explosions. ;)

[@superjimnz]

The scoops are the key addition, as they force the material into the system. The friction with the sidewall does also help, but it's mostly about the scoops.

[@redactedbananas]

It would be cool if there was a larger tube on the outside, so they all fall back down and start over. And then use a way more ping pong balls.

[@mickyr171]

Great work, you should have the top part take them straight to the bottom though instead of the box

[@salec7592]

Now I am wondering if this could be made flexible, similarly to flexible shafts in sleeves, making "active pipelines" to transport small grain materials and fluids. Also, what if the design was reversed, so that inner core was smooth and cylindrical, and the spiral ridge (path) was attached to outer wall? For my former idea, that would mean using almost every part of existing flexible shafts, replacing only the sleeve and adding side ports for transported material at endpoints.

[@shykitten55]

I'm not a rocket scientist, but here's my theory: The balls are spun and gain energy. They are moved IN and so as with the conservation of angular (something) they will move faster. Repeat as the next one comes in behind. Also, friction from the outside all and the ball will make the ball move "forward" and thus up. Oh, and I love your toys behind you.

[@theselectiveluddite]

:) Nicely done. If you changed the exit spout to go into a diagonal downwards tube, you could have the balls go back into the sump in a continuous stream :)

[@AndrewDeLong]

I never knew that it would be possible for one to screw around with ones balls and be so productive about it.

[@kpdimopoulos]

Great video. It could work better if the screw was also turning in the opposing direction of the tube. Maybe with a differential gear at the bottom?

[@FifthConcerto]

It should take some effort to get the first ball in, and I don't know if one ball could easily make it up the screw. However, once the tube is seeded, turning the tube knocks the balls around in a way that simultaneously has them pushing against each other, pushing against the wall of the screw and the wall of the tube, and the floor of the screw. This means the balls will be pushed to roll between the screw wall and the tube wall, and the incline of the floor will cause this rolling to be uphill. This will be helped by the balls pushing from behind, or at least helping to prevent backsliding once a critical mass of balls within the tube is obtained. In short, relative to the frame of reference of the balls, it should be essentially identical for the screw to turn, or for the tube to turn because the same forces are exerted on the balls in either case.

[@MrTacoSr]

“Will rotating the tube make it work?” rotating screw compressors: “Am I a joke to you?”

[@rdoes6696]

Ball contraption plus engineering lessons. I like it!

[@grostire]

You should make the ball to fall in the original place to make a kind of fountain. That would be awesome !

[@laiebi_3639]

I suggest putting angular resolution for your stl export higher, you can see the lowres polygons in the print

[@devopssimon]

How long did each screw print take?

[@DarkfireLightice]

I'd love to see a large scale demonstration of a ball screw like this as understanding how they translate motion can be a bit difficult to get your head around.

[@ghostflames1501]

Helps best if the balls are colored on the sides so the motions can be represented. Solid white ping pong balls are horrible to tell which way they are spinning. Even drawing lines on the hemispheres and painting the 8 different sections could help immensely, and make it more vibrant.

[@Scott_C]

James, could you use this mechanism turned on its side as a part of your weird wheels series?

[@SkillingsVideo]

Make the balls fall back into the holding area

[@kylewall9107]

So given that the Archimedes screw works and this system works, would the next step then be using a planetary gear setup such that the sun gear is attached to the screw, the planetary gears attached to a stationary motor, and ring gear attached to the outer tube, which would have a opposing rotation for the screw and tube, thereby increasing the movement of fluid / particles?