Why were Imperial Troopers so Bad After Being Trained by Clone Commandos?

Good soldiers bang their heads on blast doors
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[@BravoHalcyon]

Let's not forget that the basic Clone troopers were trained for years by ARCs, elite bounty hunters, and depending on legends/canon Jango Fett himself. Clone Commandos were great soldiers, but they had only been training the TKs for a few months at most. Saying TKs should be near the Commandos skill level just b/c they were trained by them makes no sense

[@mariottbunbury1985]

And dont forget for Clones its LITERALLY in their blood and have no habbits or personality issues that Normal norn recruits would have

[@thelordofcringe]

Only if they're a fresh recruit. A clone had at best 10 years of training, and half of that they probably weren't even able to do physical training because of the whole growing up part. A stormtrooper with ten years of experience is quite possibly the better soldier compared to a rookie clone.

[@AlexanderRJaruk]

@@thelordofcringe well, that would be true for any rookie vs veteran matchups.

[@andrewbloom7694]

@@thelordofcringeThat's not necessarily true. The flash training eliminates the need for quite a bit of the initial conditioning, and the fact they have the same genetics as an elite jedi killer means they should be elite athletes. It's like cloning Ted Williams. Those clones are gonna have a way easier time learning baseball because they will all have some of the greatest hand eye coordination a human has ever had.

[@ghandigreen]

@@thelordofcringe No, any clone outclassed any storm trooper because they were the perfect soldier. Literally stated in Canon.

[@nunouno001]

The storm troopers are fine as long as they don’t go up against heroes with plot armor or cute cuddly teddy bears.

[@michaelandreipalon359]

Replace "plot armor" with "the will of the Force on their side" and we're cool.

[@erickmarrero4848]

Or if you’re watching Star Wars rebels

[@clonesolar]

@@michaelandreipalon359 nah more like force plot armor am I right?

[@scoutman66]

The thing I don't understand is how the Emperor claimed those were his best troops. He wouldn't send a bunch of kids fresh out of the academy to keep the shield reactor safe, right? And I don't believe he did it just because dark side, because there's a difference between being evil and being dumb

[@erickmarrero4848]

@@scoutman66 Who knows honestly true I agree with you on that one

[@salvagedude625]

Clone Commandos training TKs seems like a parallel between real-world special operations often training other forces, although typically it would be unconventional forces like seen on Onderon.

[@rc59191]

One of the Special Ops units they're based on is the Green Berets who's primary job is to train the indigenous forces. Thought that was really cool how they incorporated them.

[@geetslys]

Well, a lot of times, experienced soldiers will train soldiers from their own armed forces!

[@salvagedude625]

@@geetslys I'm pretty sure U.S. has a rule that SOF only work with other SOF and not conventional forces though

[@rc59191]

@@salvagedude625 Vietnam our Green Berets were training conventional and unconventional ground forces.

[@salvagedude625]

@@rc59191 I was going off of what my uncle (SF with a couple tours in Afghanistan) told me so this is probably more current

[@JaelaOrdo]

Can’t expect Scorch to be a motivated teacher if he’s still upset over Sev getting left behind. Never forgive, never forget

[@rc59191]

I have a feeling we'll see him again.

[@Alec11_43]

@@rc59191 One can hope.

[@SL-hq7py]

Canon forgot and didn't care enough to forgive or not

[@carltencheira-jones7375]

Hurrah brother.

[@brosephbroman7564]

Expect Us.

[@rexlumontad5644]

*after easily taking down the Stormtroopers* Hunter: "I thought you said you trained these guys." Gregor: "I didn't teach them everything. I wouldn't be very smart now, would it?

[@neofulcrum5013]

Very true Gregor

[@theinvisibleskulk4563]

Which, fittingly, falls right into Sith code. Darth Plagueis taught his apprentice everything he knew, only for his apprentice to kill him in his sleep.

[@scoutman66]

@@theinvisibleskulk4563 But that's what Sith Lords hope for. For their apprentice to kill them so a new and even more powerful Sith can continue the Rule of Two. They deliberately push their apprentices to the limit and mock them in hopes that they finally strike

[@nameynamename3758]

@@scoutman66 well, some sith i guarantee the rule of two sith line faced many hiccups, after all, sith are naturally selfish.

[@twilight_lupinesilva4691]

@@theinvisibleskulk4563 Ironic

[@rexlumontad5644]

Echo: "These... new troopers. What do you mean our "replacements"?...." Gregor: "Well, we Clones are soldiers of the Republic that doesn't exist. These recruits come from all over the galaxy and swear loyalty to the Empire. They're not as skilled but there's an endless supply of them." Hunter: "Numbers aren't everything."

[@shaqsmith94]

Russia during ww2, hold my vodka comrade

[@rhysofsneezingdragon1758]

@@shaqsmith94 funny, since the empire is based off of the German empire

[@indianhacker9062]

@@rhysofsneezingdragon1758 what really. Thought with was fascist germany. Ideologically and all that

[@rhysofsneezingdragon1758]

@@indianhacker9062 that's more what I meant. I'm just not sure how to say it in a way that doesn't draw YT's ire

[@goosnavslakovic4908]

@@shaqsmith94 well to be fair, there were many factors that played into the Soviets turning the tide of the war. Superior numbers were just a part of the reason they won.

[@alientitimilk9073]

The books: “just trust me man they’re really good” The movies: “don’t listen to him”

[@Cyro_2235]

yeah in the thrawn trilogy Leia even said "6 Stormtroopers are enough to board and take over a cruiser!" ....... god how i miss those times.

[@jankjaws9815]

I mean if it’s the same commandos it’s not too improbable. The Clone Commandos were great at stealth and covert operations. They weren’t suited for massive combat and large scale battles. So it really just all depends on what the missions were.

[@jankjaws9815]

@Fisher 1906 very true! I would also like to add that some clones were still active in that legion. There’s a reason the nickname was Vader’s Fist.

[@rhysofsneezingdragon1758]

That can be attributed to their skills, as well as how amazing Vader was as a leader. When paired with a competent leader, the storm troopers were imposing

[@jankjaws9815]

@@rhysofsneezingdragon1758 yeah that’s true too. I’d say his days as a Jedi General were essential in building his prowess for war.

[@worldwanderer91]

@Fisher 1906 Because the 501st Legion remained the only Clone-exclusive or clone-majority unit in the Imperial military by the time of the OT. You have combat superior Clone veterans concentrated into one group with a lifetime of combat experience, superior training, and strong brotherhood versus normal unrelated regular human Stormtrooper groups who don't have those same advantage as the Clones. The 501st Legion remained an elite fighting forces to be feared whereas other Stormtrooper groups were subpar with ever declining standards in recruitment and training

[@MelralCT-]

@@worldwanderer91 well that's no longer canon and if I recall in the old eu the 501st participated in the battle of endor..... Yeah..... No one take ANY stormtroopers seriously these days even if they're Vader's fist Plus in the old EU while clones were still technically superior, normal human stormtroopers were actually still a threat, that still went through though training if you compare it to the the Imperial army and other lower ranking troopers. But once again no longer canon and they're all dumb idiots who can't aim.

[@d-rex8244]

4:13 Talks about Clones gaining experience to become affective soliders. Also shows Clone punching battle droid and paying for it. Experienced Clones: "Wait a minute, how'd this happen? We're smarter than this."

[@wor575]

Experienced clones know how to melee a droid. Reminder after that one clone hurt his hand the scene immediately cuts to Cody roundhouse kicking the B1s and Rex some point later was ripping out their heads with his bare hands

[@dylanlewis5113]

"Apparently not."

[@UNSCsniper121]

I think something that is often overlooked in war is that you can be the absolute best warrior, but you could get hit by just a random shot because war, take Larry Thorne for instance, an absolutely amazing soldier, done in by a helicopter crash, sometimes its not skill that let's you survive but just by being lucky

[@hunterkiller1440]

They'll recruit anyone because they value quantity over quality. They're also ill equipped. So you can have those awesome Stormtroopers on Tantive 4 and you can have those defeated by Ewoks.

[@kingcobra9726]

no, the Imperial Army and Navy is quantity, the Stormtrooper Corps was quality, the writers just keep making them jokes.

[@andrewjessop6054]

To be fair ewoks are vicious

[@laragingpiggeon3687]

The ones defeated by the Ewoks were actually the emporers best stormtroopers legion

[@stevenclark2188]

Quantity has a quality all its own

[@Fandom_Junkie]

Also keep in mind that the stormtroopers on Tantive 4 were part of the 501st, and I think Vader would want the best of the best to be part of his personal legion

[@lordMartiya]

Now that I think about it, there's a couple divides in Stormtrooper effectiveness: 1)Shortly after the Battle of Yavin, the Stormtrooper Corps received an influx of new soldiers from the regular infantry. It was either a propaganda trick to make the loss of the Death Star seem less dire than it had been by flooding the streets and battlefields with white armors or a knee-jerk reaction to face the post-Yavin Rebel offensives by giving better equipment to the infantry (Stormtrooper Armor is, after all, superior to what the Imperial Troopers had), but due interservice rivalry it resulted in those new Stormtroopers being drawn not from the best of the Imperial Army but from lesser units, making the Stormtroopers less effective as a whole. 2)After Endor, many Imperial officers and warlords panicked and started giving Stormtrooper Armor to everyone under their command, no matter if they actually deserved it. This is when the jokes about Stormtroopers ineffectiveness start to appear even in-universe, as many of these Stormtrooper wannabes were indeed THAT bad.

[@Uberdude6666]

In real life, ex-commandos often end up as instructors, training regular troops. Their jobs are different, but the basic training (not the later, specialized training) that commandos undergo is often just a ramped up version of regular training.

[@SpecForceMarine]

Yes also gytsly is wrong about the storm or regular clone troopers being more effective in open battle as Infanterists than clone commandos. It was more that as frontline infantrymen commandos couldn’t perform to their max potential, clone troopers were perfect human infantry themselves or near perfection in terms what a human can achieve, but the advantage of commandos was their Advanced commando training over clones. Still in a normal open battle commandos would perform probably still a little better skillwise, the Katarn-class commando armour, especially mark lll would give them an additional advantage, that armor could protect from grenade blasts from point blank, blaster shots, various projectile weapons etc., and commandos were generally equipped better.

[@Uberdude6666]

@@SpecForceMarine Yea they were probably excelent, but wasted. Clone troopers being more effective just means they are more expendable

[@SpecForceMarine]

@@Uberdude6666 yes right, the example with geonosis was due to bad orders of inexperienced Jedi who had no idea how to lead them and mostly died at more open places where high numbers of them were used on insufficient space, where they could have been taken out by heavier weapons and geonosians too flying in the air above them. At that time their armor also wasn’t as durable as later on the clone wars. Which meant for them that they were taken down almost like regular infantry, while being far lesser in numbers compared to regular clone troopers. But when used properlz they did a lot of damage to the enemy in that same battle where they sabotaged or destroyed droid factories which contributed much to the victory on geonosis, too.

[@krispalermo8133]

@@SpecForceMarine Open field with no cover, then add the old saying " better the troop unit, the more mortal fire is sent their way."

[@pedrokantor3997]

"Primarily clones to organic recuits." But Clones are organic!

[@kennyplop]

organic don't mean natural! -Karen complaining to a farmer

[@derekhemmings1693]

Organic as in not test tub babies

[@yoavmor9002]

5 years after the Rise of the Empire, baton scout troopers could block blow after blow from a Jedi Padawan/Knight, Cal Kestis. They stand no chance, but they show very high competence, for grunts.

[@michaelandreipalon359]

Pity competence and skill aren't the same thing.

[@yoavmor9002]

@@michaelandreipalon359 wdyn pity competence???

[@michaelandreipalon359]

@@yoavmor9002 Competence, because they're willing enough to fight against the enemy despite overwhelming odds. Not skilled enough to beat the likes of Cal though, all while fighting for the wrong side.

[@yoavmor9002]

@@michaelandreipalon359 That's the thing, they don't even have to be skilled enough to deal with Cal, Jedi are beyond their pay grade, beyond the Clone's pay grade had they didn't have the element of surprise or a force user by their side Just the fact that they last more than a single lightsaber swing shows that they are well trained and proficient in combat... You don't meet a Jedi every day. And even than the game shows that the Empire's stormtrooper core is efficient, they would have overran Kashyyyk had Cal not intervened, and they did after he left. Stormtroopers are obviously far superior to insurgents of that time. Stormtroopers are far superior to any humanoid non force sensitive opponents throughout the saga short of Clones. They are highly competent, and they initially were very competent. No 0 BBY era stormtrooper could ever hope to block or perry a Jedi.

[@Sephiroth144]

@@michaelandreipalon359 And remind me, which Clone Commando stood toe to toe, solo, to a Jedi (or a Sith) who knew the attack was coming...

[@marshalllatta2073]

It sucks to be a stormtrooper They might look pretty cool like Gregor said he didn't teach them everything that wouldn't be very smart would it

[@avgjoegaming8271]

Yah but his allegiances were already in question hes one trainer others probably taught them properly

[@alberto2141]

The others probably did the same, Gregor was captured because he deserted and he didn't want to teach them anything to begin with.

[@chengzhou8711]

"The distinction between a regular commando brigade and a clone brigade was that the commandos would all have less manpower fielded, but they still require a great number of support units to relay orders to their squads and get them supplies. On the other hand, the clone brigade would have greater manpower and could entrench themselves better than the commandos and reasonably hold a strategic area against an equally organized group of battle droids. Instead of fighting a traditional battle, the commandos excelled at close-quarters tactics in order to disrupt the organization and supply of the armies that are fielded, and in fact, they make it look easy." -CS/CT-8711-12 "Cheng", Former Captain and Scout of the 442nd Siege Battalion

[@slicer940]

This may be right but don’t forget what Gregor said, he purposefully trained the TK troopers poorly because they weren’t clones and were replacements for all clones. I imagine this sentiment was carried by all clones who were ordered to train regular recruits. Perhaps the clones thought that if they showed how crap the recruits are, the clones would continue to be used.

[@hanifloka130]

So in essence they were trained by the wrong type of personnel, and lead by some of the worst commanding officers. That does make me wonder, would ARC troopers be better suited to train them?

[@kingcobra9726]

yes, in Legends it actually was ARC Troopers and Commanders like Cody (who he himself had ARC training as well as other Commanders) who trained the Stormtrooper recruits.

[@bogustoast22none25]

Problem with that is that ARC troopers were super soldiers training regular soldiers, and they fought wildly different wars.

[@mariobadia4553]

@@kingcobra9726 then why did they still get Annihilated by teddy bears

[@mariobadia4553]

@@bogustoast22none25 yeah that's like if in Halo they had Spartans training Marines when they are vastly different

[@kingcobra9726]

@@bogustoast22none25 yeah that’s true, but I still think they were better suited to train them instead of Commandos, as ARCs did a variety of roles, both special ops missions like Commandos, to frontline battles alongside the infantry and everything else in between.

[@xdj2a2]

I would have loved it if it was Arc Troopers training the canon Stormtroopers instead of the Commandos.

[@kingcobra9726]

Yeah thats how it was in legends, ARCs and commanders like Cody were responsible for training the Stormtroopers.

[@ikeaman7247]

Maybe they do in other facilities

[@jcthemonkeyking9412]

Honestly it's just bad plot armor for stormtroopers. Oh you forgot to mention the episode with din djarin and mayfield being save by stormtroopers from pirates

[@Cyro_2235]

and NONE of those stormtroopers missed one single shot in that scene!!! (yeah i slowmotioned it down!)

[@Bludvane_77]

They weren’t bad, in A New Hope the stormtroopers were ordered by Vader not to kill Han luke Leia and chewbacca so they could escape and show them where the rebel base was…they intentionally missed shots to make it look like they were putting up a fight, that’s where the misconception of them being bad shots comes from.

[@kingcobra9726]

yep, but that won't stop the writers and the majority of the fanbase from making them suck and saying its canon.

[@MelralCT-]

@@kingcobra9726 so true

[@BudroThePious]

I'm so glad you really went into it instead of just saying, "Man Stormtroopers really suck, huh? Look at all these times they got smoked by people in plot armor."

[@viperson9818]

I think it’s the helmet. Clones have a T shape opening and these guys got small eye slots.

[@blackout212-_-7]

T visor is the best

[@Aqueox]

The Stormtroopers actually had a perfectly fine FOV. The eye slots were more of a backup in case of electronics failure.

[@brianzulauf2974]

Every one forgets that Han, Luke and Leia were allowed to escape the death star so they could be tracked back to yavin. The empire wasn't counting on the rebel attack to be so effective. Over looking the ewoks was a royal screw up though.

[@terrylong8894]

Gregory’s revelation that at least some of the clones are DELIBERATELY training the Imperial Stormtrooper Corp to suck was simultaneously surprising, hilarious and very telling.

[@tickticktickBOOOOM]

Originally, the end of Return of the Jedi was supposed to have a wookie uprising instead of care bears. In that case, losing would be much more forgivable.

[@Ltmemberv-]

I feel stormtroopers failed due to a poor command structure they were not ill equipped their armor was actually really effective in swr you see a bucket head get blasted in the head with a heavy blaster but he survived just got injured and the E 11 was surprisingly not terrible but the leadership was to blame most only ever cared about promotions and used reckless strategies

[@amanzeihedioha]

I like the thumbnail. It's like a mixture of we'll take from here, kids vibe and they never stood a chance vibe.

[@TeeLow]

“… They fought and died for the whims of a single man that most storm troopers who never even met. This wasn’t all that strong of a motivation…” Krieg guardsman: confused gas mask noises

[@loserinasuit7880]

The motivation of the republic is even worse. It's such a weird quote.

[@Mike5Brown]

Yeah don’t agree with that at all. I always figured a good chunk of the core were shelf(wrong word) and outer rim folk who were very happy that the empire showed up a brought order.

[@aaronsanborn4291]

A clone commando unit is a 4 man team which is the standard fire team in a real world Infantry Platoon. I was a Scout in the Army we often worked in small 4-6 man teams, Platoons, Troops/Company sized elements. It doesnt matter the size of the unit the basic training and tactics are the same. You just have to work smarter when you have fewer men.

[@HighKnight]

I am curious, what are the roles in a standard fire team? If the standard is 4 people in a team, how does that change when there are 5 or 6 people instead?

[@bogustoast22none25]

I just want a series where it shows things from the stormtroopers perspectives, showing them being effective and curb stomping the shit out of the rebels.

[@Zergking100]

"We trained them wrong as a joke" -Clone Commandos

[@geetslys]

Points for the Kung Pow reference

[@tylerrassi4148]

Someone with military experience here and I've got a theory. When I went through basic training in my platoon alone I had several people who were competitive shooters and out of like 60 of us only 2 or 3 hadn't shot a gun before and our DS said that those who've never shot before will likely outshoot most of us because they're a blank slate. No bad habits to break. In the end those that weren't professional shooters or just very very good like myself got out shot by those who were inexperienced. Now, in Star Wars these people had just fought a completely different war and these soldiers aren't used to fighting this kind of fight and they're being trained by people who were only trained on how to kill droids pretty much. Rebels don't March in formation towards the empire. This is reflected by basically every battle the clones were in against organics. They were always bloodbaths even when they eventually won the casualties are massive. I'd love to hear your thoughts but this is what I gathered from IRL experience and in Star Wars.

[@farbsworth526]

Sounds legit, I imagine some clones did try their best at training the stormtroopers but gave them tactics on how to beat droids and forgot that stormtroopers were meant to deal with more organic beings than walking tin cans.

[@lordMartiya]

Another reason for the Stormtroopers' relative ineffectiveness was that the Clonetroopers were generalists trained for ten years, so in a pinch an infantry Clone could man an artillery piece, drive a tank, or pilot a fighter, among other things, while Stormies were specialists in frontline combat and policing and didn't have the long training Clones had in either.

[@gonkdroid4prez539]

just so you know, stormtroopers (when not shooting at "force protected" characters) have accuracy similar to that of US snipers.

[@BoSPaladin-102]

They can usually hit about 76 percent of shots fired at their intended targets, according to EA's Battlefront II that is. Or if their targets stand still long enough.

[@gonkdroid4prez539]

@@BoSPaladin-102 yeah, I mean if you look at the attack on the Tantive IV, the stormtroopers had every disadvantage, but they took like 7 casualties to capture or kill everyone aboard.

[@Man-df2zh]

4:12 ..."which made them into more effective soldiers". *cut to the clip of that one poor bastard punching the battle droid and getting shot*

[@marcmccormack7688]

Also important to remember that, prior to the civil war, a stormtrooper was most often used for garrison duty, patrols, and convoy security. They were peacetime troops, with the occasional odd insurrection thrown in.

[@Aqueox]

The Imperial Army requires a word with you.

[@marcmccormack7688]

@@Aqueox all questions comments and concerns can be directed to my secretary

[@dr.bright6272]

The answer is both. They were bad soliders with trainers who hated them and wanted them to fail

[@bogustoast22none25]

They weren’t bad soldiers. They were actually good. Were they the cream of the crop? No. But they were good soldiers.

[@RehnanCT-]

“We never really got use to the new guys.” Unidentified 501st clone trooper

[@user39728]

@@bogustoast22none25 Yeah without being up against a plot armor ridden characters they are adequate soldiers that can easily take out rebels even if outnumbered

[@dragonking1097]

Given what we’ve seen. Stormtroopers really are a force to fear. Some of the huge detriments to their performance would be the fact their leaders can be terrible, and their gear can be lousy. Plus who needs accuracy when you have an almost unlimited amount of ammo and can afford to be wasteful.

[@jacobstine1221]

And the Clones were Mandalorian, a culture that is literally breed for battle and Jango in Legends was a descendant of the Mandalorian's founding race.

[@RehnanCT-]

“If you think I’m gonna spend the rest of my days training shiny anti clone bigots after fighting 3 years for them then you’ve got another thing coming RC- 9989 Reeger : Hyperion squad following reassignment to instruct Stormtrooper recruits

[@aceofspades604]

The real question is why the showrunners never show stormtroopers living up to their fearsome reputation.

[@loserinasuit7880]

Because then you're a fascist

[@flamezisabot8640]

It’s crazy to think about now that the bad batch showed us how early on the human recruits came. Just think, in Rots behind the scenes stormtroopers were already being trained. I wonder if any of them saw action against the separatists

[@thelordofcringe]

Legends expanded on this greatly. It also fixes the plothole of all clones coming from Kamino, and the impossibly small numbers. First it was just that there were other cloning planets making clones quickly and of slightly lesser quality, then there were the spaarti clones that grew in a year and were meh soldiers but incredibly numerous. Cloning was unsustainable though so surviving clones helped transition the military to regular humans. For the first ten years of the Empire they conquered the entire outer rim and in one campaign, wiped out a significant portion of the pirate groups in the star wars universe. In fact, it was those early campaigns that made most of the galaxy support the Empire up until they blew up alderaan. The Empire had brought peace and order to parts of the galaxy neglected by the republic for centuries.

[@captaindc3889]

Can’t be a Stormtrooper if they don’t miss 89% of the time

[@geetslys]

Fake Stormtroopers be like:

[@RedArmyShogun]

You should read IRL soldier statistics 11% accuracy is a dream in modern combat.

[@slimetank394]

@@geetslys some stormtroopers: hit their target Imperial officers: "Impossible, these must be some rebel spies!"

[@Hapa45lolo]

Like being trained by someone and the manager tells you they won't be here long and you get more hours and no oversight at the bottom

[@Karlos1234ify]

It sucks that the clones got the Raw Deal after the Clone Wars.

[@TarsonTalon]

It is my head canon that the Empire employs 'stand-ins' for when the actual soldiers are off on raids. Rather than train all the troopers properly, they just train whom they can, and the other ones are just meant to wear the armor and look intimidating. Because both the actual troops and the stand-ins wear the same armor, it's difficult for the civilians to tell the difference, and it's difficult for the Rebel Alliance to read Imperial troop movements. The actual soldiers go on raids. The stand-ins guard the assets.

[@lewismassie]

That makes a lot of sense actually

[@ACEnBEAKY]

@@lewismassie yeah I agree.

[@alessiodecarolis]

Effectively, looking how easy they were killed in "The Mandalorian", these soldiers could've been only raw recruits, with summary training and worst leadership, as for some Germany's units at the end of the war.

[@mill2712]

@@alessiodecarolis I can see that. The stormtroopers Din fought at the beginning seemed unmotivated, and sloppy. However Moff Gideon's troops seemed much more professional in comparison.

[@donutlovingwerewolf8837]

Brilliant

[@Karlos1234ify]

I get the feeling Clone Commandos purposely stunted Storm Troopers’ training out of spite. They were getting replaced, though.

[@dtxspeaks268]

But weren't Clone commandos still being used to hunt jedis and rebel bases under Palpatine's direct command? Or was that only in Legends?

[@theinvisibleskulk4563]

It'd be hilarious to see a memo from Thrawn sent out after the Emperor's death all about what the Empire has to fix, or Luke explaining how the New Jedi Code he drafts is inspired by how the Rebel Alliance beat the Empire.

[@cluemeinn]

Bro, could u maybe make a theory vid on what would have happened if the clones were never phased out and Palpatine kept producing them? 😳

[@Jesus-jz6ll]

It would have been very expensive, that's for sure.

[@cluemeinn]

A logistical nightmare, but let’s assume he had an unlimited amount of credits

[@farbsworth526]

@@cluemeinn I think that Palpatine grew wary of the clones being programed to turn against the empire at the push of a button like the case with the Jedi, but wrote the official reasoning as it being to taxing on the new empires wealth.

[@L33T_Taco]

God everytime your intro plays i can feel myself 10+ years ago on my PS2 in the dark playing Battlefront.

[@basiliimakedonas1109]

When you see the scene where the stormtroopers invaded Leia's ship at the start of a new hope and account all fired shots and percentage of hits and fatalities on both sides you can see that their numbers are close to supersoldiers when compared to units like United States special forces

[@Robot_Eva]

Honestly it's nice to see variety in imperial troops. Even in the assumption that stormtroopers are supposed to represent the uniformity of fascism, it still wouldnt make sense not to have specialized trooper types. Theres usually a big focus on clone types but its nice to see it happen for imperial troops too

[@SpecForceMarine]

There was a far larger variety for imperial troops than for clone at least in legends. There were more specialists troops in the empire for specific tasks or environments but also more different types of special elite types of units

[@Robot_Eva]

@@SpecForceMarine oh really? That's cool. Could you give a few examples?

[@SpecForceMarine]

@@Robot_Eva Well, off of my head I remember foot soldiers such as Storm Commandos/Shadow Scouts, Imperial Clone Commandos at least for the earlier imperial days (only clones), Shadow Storm Troopers, Heavy Troopers & Shock Troopers (each designation is shared by two different troop types respectively, a melee unit and a rocketeer), EVO Troopers, Jump Troopers, Navy Commandos, Incinerator Troopers, Shadow & Saber Guards and similar imperial guard types, TerrorTroopers . There are also Dark Trooper variants which are mostly droids, with Phase O being clone cyborgs and Phase 3, being both exoskeleton and droid. Other droids are Carbonite & Incinerator War Droids. Apart from that there are some troop names that exist in the Disney Canon and have been adopted from Legends such as Purge Troopers (Dark Trooper Variant in Legends, in new cain they’re staff wielding human troops), Shock & Heavy Troopers’ designation also is used for different tone of troops and some more I don’t remember rn. Some environmental specialists are also RAD Troopers, Space Troopers, Aquatic Troopers and Swamp Troopers (all except RAD Troopers are also in the new Canon. And There are more.

[@Robot_Eva]

@@SpecForceMarine here's hoping we get to see more of them in future star wars media. It would be nice to see some of the cooler concepts from legends return or be reintegrated

[@dtxspeaks268]

@@SpecForceMarine aren't the incinerator trooper called imperial saboteurs, or are you referring to another type of imperial trooper. Also dont forget the terrifying Hazard Stormtrooper.

[@scodiofficer0012]

To everybody else without plot armor, Storm Troopers are formidable opponents.

[@kostakatsoulis2922]

I tend to think that in the show it had only been a few weeks since the end of the clone wars so realistically theres no way they could've been training for very long

[@leobezard5998]

It would give more context to the skill and the equipment of storm troopers if we had more Roque One style of movie/show, where the protags. don't have much plot armor and are genuinely on the run, it would show the terror and the danger that the storm troopers represented and also give a taste of how the empire operated on different worlds, instead of the demoralized scrubs that are found post Endor. the protags should be civilians (also known as acceptable casualties by Imperial high command) or local PDF troops at most, they should not be able to fight a conventional war and should act as civilians at first and then gain experience (the ones that survive that is), the point being that Imperial Army regulars should be the most they have ever really faced till the point the storm troopers arrive and proceed to butcher the overconfident civilians.

[@michelecastellotti9172]

This fits into the problem most villains galls into: overepresentation and poor depiction. Daleks (doctor who) and shadows (babylon 5) are excellent examples on how to keep an enemy consistently scary, in the dalek case for 50 years. Nobody at disney, not even filoni nor Favrou, have done a decent job at it

[@mill2712]

In fact, most writers that worked for star wars hasn't done too well at that task.

[@zexalbrony4799]

You say they were at disadvantage in those battles in Episodes 4 and 5, but I'm not so sure. The Tantive IV was much smaller than the Star Destroyer, so the Star Destroyer would clearly have more troops in it than the Tantive. Now the Rebels may have an advantage as that door the StormTrooper came through maybe the only entryway, so they know where to place all their Troops, but the StormTroops could have easily just deployed some kind of shielding, like those used by Doom and his Legion of Chads, to charge in, set up a perimeter and gun down the Rebels in that small very few places to find cover hallway. And again, that's assuming that door was the only way in, parodies of Episode 4 like Family Guy and some of the Lego Star Wars Specials point out the possibility of another way in, and thus how stupid the Rebels are for putting all their troops in one area. As for Hoth, I'm not sure exactly how many troops both sides could have, given the size of Echo Base and all the Star Destroyers present, which no doubt each had large numbers of Troops, but even if the Rebels had a number's advantage, the Empire had AT-AT's, which were completely OP with very few weakness, as shown by how they decimated the Rebels in that battle. So clearly, in that case, the Empire had the advantage.

[@immersegrafx]

A choke point on Tantive IV could've been easily defended for hours, it's very hard to lose that quickly, as choke points are easily defendable and extremely disadvantageous for the attacking side

[@monferno1]

There’s the old “defective blaster” excuse

[@Phantom19913]

the biggest problem with storm troopers was that there individuality was stripped away by their training. For instance once you join the storm trooper corps you don't have a name you have a tk number. You are trained to follow orders of your superiors not think for yourself. You were also trained to see any who die as weakness that are unfit to serve. This was the opposite of the clones who were born with numbers but allowed to have nicknames that they chose themselves, they though for themselves, and valued the life of their brothers and would do anything to save them. Other issues that the stormtroopers corps had was they didn't really care about the people or planets they were stationed on and often had to fight others that did value these worlds. The biggest problem is they weren't trained to wage war the storm trooper corps were glorified police that didn't know how to fight an enemy that would fight back or could overpower them. The victory on hoth wasn't because of competence but because the rebels had no intention of holding the base. Sure against disorganized civilians the storm troopers were something to be terrified off but against an organized army they were useless.

[@TD-ht8dz]

that is just plain bs, where did you get that information? Star Wars Rebels? The victory on Hoth most definitely was because of competence. The Rebels were fighting their hardest in an attempt to hold off the troopers as long as they could. But the Stormtroopers there though weren't even just normal elite Stormtroopers, they were the elite of the elite, they were the 501st, and also even if they had been just normal Stormtroopers, they were still very elite and would have won the battle anyways. They were very competent, they just had terrible officers commanding them. Stormtroopers were very good shots and would win just about every single time the rebels ever had a straight up battle against them that did not involve guerilla tactics. Also the Stormtroopers did their best to minimize civilian casualties whenever possible, unlike the rebels who showed no care for that and fought to spread chaos and terror into the lives of everyday citizens, the rebels claimed to fight for freedom, but if you actually read the Legends stuff and not the disney bs you would know that the rebels often caused the deaths of many civilians and while some civilians liked the rebels because they fought against Imperials that were truly bad like the officers, many civilians thought of the rebels as nothing more than terrorists, and yes there were plenty of rebels who truly did believe they were doing the right thing and that they were fighting for freedom (the Jedi supporters like Leia and Luke and Han and Lando and Ackbar and all them), but most rebels were not like that, or at least a very large number of them weren't. Also the Stormtroopers were not the regular infantry of the Empire, they were elite soldiers and they were far more organized than the rebels, you have a point about the lack of personalism and individualism that the clones had, but other than that you're just plaini wrong

[@Phantom19913]

@@TD-ht8dz what imperial propaganda is this. First the battle of hoth didn’t succeed in its true objective which was wiping out the rebels who had destroyed the Death Star and capture rebel officers both objectives failed. Stormtroopers never limited civilian casualties and often participated in the empires genocide of the lasat, geonosians, alderanians, and gormans that’s the ones I can remember off the top of my head. Burned down refugee villages shot up civilians.

[@TD-ht8dz]

@@Phantom19913 bro, try reading the comics and novels and other Legends content rather than just the disney bs that makes the Empire out to be super evil and also stupid incompetent idiots and makes the rebels out to be complete heroes who win almost every single time they ever fight anybody and that the power of friendship trumps everything else

[@Phantom19913]

@@TD-ht8dz Bro they are a facist, brutal, genocidal regime that dominates and attacks anyone that has anything they want. They are not the not or ever the good guys till writers created the vong and Darth Krayts empire. Btw rebels loose all the time time but they fight to restore a republic that will leave your worlds in peace the empire leaves no one in peace.

[@number3766]

Stormies were trained to by and for spec ops, but were in an infantry, non-squad base, non-colaberative with each other role.

[@ACEnBEAKY]

Also after the destruction of Alderaan, seen as the heart of the Republic, a lot of storm troopers probably started to question themselves. From what I understand, before Alderaan, a lot of stormies were willing and motivated recruits who received decent training and were probably working along some aging but experienced clone veterans. After Alderaan, the empire started forcefully conscripting people and rushing their training, trying to compensate for the lack of training and morale with pure fear via dehumanization. Basically they broke them down, but didn’t build them back up. They might have tried to supplement their forces with spartii “flash memory clones”, but as we know they were low quality-basically b1 battle droids in storm trooper armor with homocidal or suicidal tendencies.

[@rocky_6969]

The whole point of this channel is to complement everything about Star Wars. I like it.

[@Chrisorr]

Basically Clone Commandos training Stormtroopers is like Navy Seals training Rangers. Completely different fields of operation.

[@zandosdwarf-king]

Always nice to see legion artworks

[@beastwarsFTW]

I had a theory that most of the best Troopers were stationed on the Deathstar so the Empire lowered the bar to compensate the looses of most of their best men.

[@marciafiorentino1190]

I love this video. Dave filloni should watch this. He takes the bad aim stormies too serious bruh.

[@Hostile4380]

I wonder how much of a difference there would be if the tk troopers were trained by ARCs instead. Teaching troopers to act independently would have been interesting to see

[@user-en1mj8uc5f]

Gregor: "I didn't teach them everything."

[@Viperfish9000]

Republic Commando chad gamer after seeing a tiny harmless bug: *You lizards need to learn I'm alot scarier than what you are*

[@johnquach8821]

Depends on stormtrooper corps. IIRC there was big variation and some stormtroopers were inept, while others were reasonably capable. TKs and Stormtroopers also aren't trained as long as the Clones were, and aren't Jango clones so there's slightly worse physical performance as well. Really the upper end of Stormtrooper competence is Task force 99, SCAR squadron, the 501st, or the 1st Legion, and those are comparable to clone units from the Clone Wars. The big disadvantage of the clones is cost. They are better, but also significantly more expensive.

[@jacobstine1221]

Clone Commandos the key word there is commandos. They're special operation troopers, they are meant to use hit and run tactics, attack supply lines, sabotage transports, and assassinations.

[@truegodaries]

The reason why the Tantive IV and Hoth battles were so much dominated by the Empire was because the 501st Legion was present.

[@badgamemaster]

Even the mighty clone commandos would lose when figting the all powerful plot armour.

[@yarnickgoovaerts]

What if stormtroopers where trained by ARC troopers? They’re frontline troops after all

[@jorikrouwenhorst7220]

This is something I really dislike about Disney canon. Stormtroopers aren’t the elite shock troopers they are supposed to be, now they are just useless canon fodder.

[@mariobadia4553]

I mean that's what they always were in Legends. Anyone with a lightsaber cuts down hundreds of them with absolutely no difficulty in any way shape or form

[@jorikrouwenhorst7220]

@@mariobadia4553 Of course forforce sensitives they should be that way but for the "normies they should be more of a challenge.

[@mariobadia4553]

@@jorikrouwenhorst7220 in Legends they run at Starkiller when they have him completely surrounded and outnumbered yet aren't even shooting at him when they have orders to kill him.

[@JRJ4912]

Not all Stormtroopers. I distinctly remember reading their armor lacking the unit colors of their Clone forebears to confuse enemy soldiers if they were facing elite units like the 501st or bottom of the barrel cannon fodder.

[@Mysikrysa]

They have been the ultimate cannon fodder in OT, so it would be weird to make them something significantly different.

[@nanachimakenshi2512]

Stormtroopers lose because plot demands it. Most people don't seem to understand that. If the heroes get shot up and killed, then there is no story.

[@Bob-km1wh]

you can make competent soldiers without the main characters dying in two seconds. it's been done countless times in star wars and literally every media

[@bogustoast22none25]

*removes plot armor* Luke: BEN! Stormtrooper: *pew pew* Luke: *dead*

[@barnettmcgowan8978]

Great video!

[@FormerBunsenBurner]

Does no-one realize that those troops in the Bad Batch probably hadn't even finished training?

[@indianhacker9062]

Because they needed to match the troopers in OT

[@OUTSIDER40]

May the force be with you

[@WheelLock]

clone troopers also had 10 years of training while i imagine stormtroopers had far less time.

[@dragonborn7955]

Makes me wonder how Clone Commando training will work for soldiers who are being used more as infantry.

[@jordankumoyama967]

Clones were trained their whole lives Stormtroopers were recruited with a couple months of training

[@antr7493]

Didn't Gregor say it best. "I didn't teach them everything"

[@goldeagle6431]

The Senate thought of imperials simply as cannon fodder.

[@justinmeans3446]

A good soldier needs more than the best equipment and training in the Galaxy. There are so many intangibles to being a good soldier that I can’t help but think the Empire failed to cultivate them.

[@bcn1gh7h4wk]

"We trained him wrong, as a joke."

[@Ikcatcher]

This is like getting a war hero to train self-defense force

[@pheneobe]

because clone commandos didnt know how to fight huge battles, and that was what they needed to know how to do

[@MordalfusGrea]

They probably meant for them to be trained by Clone COMMANDERS not Clone Commandos, but there was a typo involved.

[@nielgregory108]

Kinda obvious the Empire is going for quantity over quality so, of course, they won't be trained as well.

[@kingcobra9726]

it was the Imperial Army and Navy that was quantity, the Stormtrooper Corps was quality.

[@marciafiorentino1190]

People should share this video so people get to know about it

[@SuperJay1210]

Also to note that the clones that trained the stormtroopers despised them and thought of themselves superior than recruiting civilians so that probably has a factor in why the stormtroopers aren’t that good Just look at commander Cody’s story after order 66

[@Starwarsfan066]

Video idea: cover the battle of Tibran. I've never seen anyone cover the battle of Tibran. It was mentioned by Cody in the clone wars episode Rookies

[@justthatoneguymat9186]

It's plot armor that's why we see what we see

[@jaxl2983]

I loved the TK trooper armor look should use it some more till Bad Batch catchs up with the Trilogy

[@halosammy14]

Remember that TK stands for “team kill.”

[@autisticjoeyyo]

Cool! Never knew this! 🤯😧🙃