Why YOUR Lie Angle Is SO Crucial…

[@johnatchley9754]

Very interesting as always. I remember a demo by your counterpart in Canada, Ian Fraser, where his sidekick Mike was hitting PW, 7i and 4i. The PW consistently went a bit left, the 7i straight, and the 4i a bit right. He flattened the lie of the PW and did the opposite with the 4i and all three went straight.

[@Precision_Golf]

Some players are chameleons and lie has very little effect but most see what you describe

[@User_LUdrcn]

Excellent explanation..as usual. 👍

[@Precision_Golf]

Thank you

[@vivektulja4516]

A very informative video with no beating around the bush. Well done.

[@Precision_Golf]

Thank you

[@johnatchley9754]

As you note, there are many factors in this. In a practice bay with launch monitor, I have tended to consistently hit left of the pin with a 7 or 6 iron, and have quite a lot of left sidespin. My shafts were built for someone else, are 1/2 inch long. The heads are forged blades with traditional lofts, 34* 7, 31*6. They appear to be just a bit upright, or toe up, which would be neutral for a taller player. Now in terms of where the ball launches, it seems like position of the hands, higher or lower, has an influence that doesn’t seem to fall directly in line with your explanation. I just recently found that lowering my hands produced a higher, straighter trajectory that got my descent angle up from 38-39 to 41-42, so critical for getting the ball to stop. This is no problem for those with fast or medium swing speeds of 90 or 80 with 7 iron, but I am 83 and thus closer to 70 mph and that borderline DA number. Your YT colleague Ask Golf Nut hits every new iron he tests at all three speeds as well as all over the face, and the drop offs can be eye opening and very helpful to know. My question is, why do I get a higher, straighter flight when I lower my hands, when your demonstration would seem to indicate that this would put the face toe up and produce an even more leftward flight?

[@Precision_Golf]

I believe what is happening is that the lower hand position creates a steeper arm plane and more of a pick up to the swing and therefore steeper swing plane promoting more “fade” bias versus a higher hand position that encourages a more rotational take away and a shallower plane promoting more “draw” bias

[@johnatchley9754]

@@Precision_Golf Thank you. I thought of this last week when I landed in a bunker. Normally I have no fear of them. But during my last two rounds I had been in bunkers three times and was perplexed that each time I had hit out too long, gone over the green, had to chip back on, lost two strokes on each hole. Saw that each time I had taken a 6 or 7 inch divot starting an inch or two behind the ball, but shallow. Didn’t take enough sand. Thought I remembered a video lesson about lowering the hands for sand shots. Did so and bingo, got it out nicely. So out of curiosity I applied the same lower hands setup at my next practice session in the bay with monitor. I also concentrated on making a higher backswing. It felt like I was going exaggerated Scottie Sheffler high, but the camera revealed that I was actually making a good normal backswing. I conclude that many older players like me could be losing awareness of where our backswing actually is, particularly out on the course where there are so many other thoughts and distractions, and you only get one swing, can’t correct and repeat. So the backswing gets a little short and flat and you lose that tiny hesitation at the top to allow the momentum of the head to come to rest before changing direction. The result is not only shots to the left, but also thin or topped shots on everything from mid irons to hybrids and fairway woods because without knowing it you have made your swing plane too flat. Anyway, will be working on this in my next round. And just to add, this is less of an issue with driver, the club I hit better than any other. That may be because the ball sits up on a tee, so the swing path even if a bit flat will not top or thin the ball.

[@jamieokane989]

@@johnatchley9754incredible detail from you and your thinking about golf and your swing, it’s plane and trajectory.👍💯

[@Lil-monkeyo]

Check divot, divots can tell a whole story if you look close. Usually can see if toe or heal is digging more

[@whitneymacdonald4396]

Great info, clearly presented. Thanks.

[@Precision_Golf]

Thank you

[@kevtee6784]

Wow, Simon, you just make it so easy to understand, ty

[@Precision_Golf]

Appreciate it, thanks for watching Kev

[@bunglebear85]

Simon, do you ever use lie angle to help a player to change their swing? Say, for example, a player is looking to stay in posture more through the shot, exit more left and get more shaft lean, would you look to put them in a slightly flatter lie angle than they’re currently fitting into? I’d assume the flatter club would almost force them into the move they want to make, is that true?

[@Precision_Golf]

It would not necessarily do this but some players will adjust their posture to the club due to how it sits at address. You might use lie angle to match to where someone is taking their swing to - ie so that it is correct when their move develops - actually re-reading your question I think that is the point you are making so yes you can adjust lie to allow for progress!

[@mpperfidy]

Several videos in, and in each, you clearly explained something simple, yet previously unknown to me. (embarrassing?) Kudos, sir.

[@Precision_Golf]

Many thanks and nothing to be embarrassed about. It always seems simple once you know!!

[@IronDrummer91]

Great video! I didn’t know the wedges were most sensitive to lie angle. As somebody with a left miss I was fitted into flat irons by 2 degrees but my wedges are standard lie

[@Precision_Golf]

Thanks! A must for you to get those wedges flattened off though!

[@davidsayers2753]

And to think you've been making my clubs for 14 years and this is the first time ive known what u have been talking about ..!

[@Precision_Golf]

Haha - it had to happen some time!

[@PNW_Sportbike_Life]

Well explained sir

[@Precision_Golf]

Thank you and thanks for watching!

[@derekbrannen4060]

Awesome video guys . I have a question. Would say incorrect lie angle on a typical 7 iron. Say 1 degree upright and should be 1 degree flat. Would that cause mostly toe strikes ? Or would just change the start path and the toe strikes be more of a swing fundamental issue . Thanks

[@Precision_Golf]

A 1 degree difference would not change it much at all but too upright can create a heel contact (in bad cases a shank) and too flat a lie can create a slight toe strike. Path is swing dynamics or a reaction to shot shape to influence start line

[@billmalec]

Bought a used set of irons. Went to the range. First swing with 6 iron went 25-30 yards left of target. Fortunately I knew immediately what it was. Went and had lie angle adjusted much more flat and then the irons stayed on target. Glad I knew what was doing that instead of adjusting me to the ball flight.

[@Precision_Golf]

Thanks for sharing your experience Bill 👍🏻

[@Aaronfps2]

How do you choose which golf ball to play . I am currently using the Kirkland signature v2 . 7 handicap . I tend to spin irons a bit to low but with my driver my spin is a bit to high

[@Precision_Golf]

That is a tough combination but the f you need a higher iron spin without flaring Driver spin then either the Srixon Z-Star XV or Srixon Z-Star XV Diamond should work well

[@Frazer20]

other thing to bear in mind, although the higher lofted clubs face angle is affected more so by the lie, the ball ravels relatively less distance than say a 5 iron which will have less variation on the face angle through the lie, but travels at a further distant on that angle, effectively making it just as important on the lower lofted clubs due to the balls travel distance on a given line.

[@Precision_Golf]

You make a good point but the start line varies much more on the more lofted club so the proportionate miss relative to shot distance ends up being greater.

[@roadtoscratchgolf3481]

Simon, wonderful explanation of lie angles. Quick question: how can a golfer determine where the “sweet spot” of their clubs are? My understanding is that it’s not always the center of the club face. I say this because I watched a YT video of Adam Scott getting fitted in Japan for Miura irons and he pointed to the center of the club head as being the sweet spot and Mr. Miura corrected him and said, no, the sweet spot for these clubs is here. He was pointing more to the heel side. Which made me think that maybe the sweet spot is different for different manufacturers. Hence my question. Cheers.

[@Precision_Golf]

Manufacturers putting tungsten weights in the toe is to help move the CG of the club and therefore the sweet spot more to the centre of the club face. All blades will have the sweet spot slightly heel side due to the mass in the hosel of the club pulling the CG inside the centre of the face, hence Miura-san’s correction to Adam Scott. There are instruments that can find the centre of balance of the head which pinpoints the sweet spot but these are not commonly used outside if R&D facilities

[@roadtoscratchgolf3481]

@@Precision_Golf really appreciate your quick response. Cheers

[@MJA-k5i]

Does it make any sense that my 8,9 and pw always pull left and my 5,4,3 always go to the right? 6 and 7 seem pretty straight. I’m right handed by the way.

[@Precision_Golf]

The shorter shafts on the higher lofted irons often make them easier to square up so this is something that we do see every now and then. A straight pull left and a fade come from the same path so it is possible that it is just that the longer irons are not squaring up

[@MJA-k5i]

@ Thank you for your reply. I think it’s time for some lessons.

[@Skye_the_toller]

What pencil do you use? Thanks!

[@Precision_Golf]

White liquid chalk marker readily available on Amazon

[@markblowers8387]

Assuming face and path are zero is there anyway of calculating how far offline a 7 iron would be for example if it a club was 2° upright or flat when it should be standard.

[@Precision_Golf]

Hi Mark. At what clubspeed and at what distance? It’s alarming that in an aeronautical world, 1° off course is 1mile off course after 60miles! 🤯

[@davidvandenberg6955]

I’m curious if your irons are too upright can that cause you to pull the ball? I’m asking because my Mizuno 245s are 2degrees upright and I tend to pull

[@tonybarber420]

Just got a new set during pandemic and i went with 1 degree upright... these past 2 seasons ive seen more ball flights drawing when i hit good shots... so now im confident in starting the ball right of target and most times it will come back... where as my ball flights all my life were off to the right..

[@Precision_Golf]

It is one of the things that can affect shit shape but is not necessarily the only cause but flattening the lie should help

[@CPBuilds]

Yep. My MP-69's were bent 5* upright because that's what I was told I needed because of my height (6'6"). Worst thing I ever did. My fade went away and a pull draw was my new shot shape. I had to aim so far right that it took me a while to get used to aiming "normal" with flatter clubs. They were also too short for me at 1.5" long as I kept hitting off the toe...good times. Spend the money and get them made flatter. You'll be happy you did...or just buy new clubs and not tell your wife....I may or may have not done that.

[@franks4973]

Nice, I am going to buy a chalk pen for the range

[@Precision_Golf]

Great tool that!

[@BourneAccident]

What about club droop? No adjustments for that? How about identifying the spine and orienting the spine at 6:00 to "resist" club droop?

[@Precision_Golf]

You can only address that as part of a dynamic check through impact. Technically a smooth swing with less aggressive transition versus a full strength swing will create less shaft droop but you can only test for the average option to keep it as versatile as possible. From a spine point of view it is best to have the strongest point target side to stabilise the club face as much as possible as with the forces applied in the swing shaft droop will always occur due to the head weight and the acceleration forces applied

[@BourneAccident]

@@Precision_Golf Yes... on it being a dynamic check through impact. No... on the swing characteristics. It is largely effected by swing speed. "Kinda of" on the spine toward the target, but since club droop is a HUGE influence on ball striking contrasted to torque influences I see it as a much more important influence. Finally, anything you can do to minimize the club droop is a major improvement.

[@Precision_Golf]

@@BourneAccident shaft type, flex and profile will influence this most. Spine alignment is a way of taking out as many tolerances as possible and is a fine tune for consistency rather than a huge influence on performance unless the shaft has large structural inconsistencies which you would be unlucky to get now

[@BourneAccident]

@@Precision_Golf Well, I do like your channel and I have learned a lot. However, I disagree on the priorities. Yes, I agree that shaft type, flex, and characteristics are of great influence, but the one thing I have learned is that club droop is the most insidious and tricky.

[@Precision_Golf]

@@BourneAccident it’s not a case of not prioritising shaft droop but if you get the shaft right in the first place then this is minimised

[@LarryJL]

Somehow this was obvious and intuitive to me from day one but my friends were completely oblivous that the lie changes the angle of the club surface.

[@Precision_Golf]

Glad this helped Larry

[@mitchy7051]

one thing you didn't mention is when you made the lie 4deg more upright, you made the club 4/16 shorter :)

[@nealthorbjornsen5482]

More upright lie gets you a longer club and less swing weight. Flat lie increases swing weight and flatter lie shortens club. Period. All in all, 99/100 golfers won't notice.

[@Precision_Golf]

True, making clubs more upright does shorten the club very slightly and flatter slightly longer

[@Precision_Golf]

Correct about swingweight but more upright does shorten the club slightly but as you said it is negligible

[@nealthorbjornsen5482]

No when you make lie angle more upright your club actually gets or feels longer dude. Flat lie is the opposite.

[@Precision_Golf]

The flatter lie angle extends the distance between the toe of the club and the top of the hosel making the club longer. Making it more upright brings the toe towards the hosel and shortens the length very slightly.

[@nealthorbjornsen5482]

Yes it feels longer cause it sits up higher. Duh!!

[@nealthorbjornsen5482]

⁠I agree but more upright lie sits the club higher on grip end. Perhaps 1/8 inch. The feel makes it longer but in what you’re saying yes I agree. Toe - Hosel distance perhaps 2 mm.