Will A Lack of Active Battery Thermal Management Harm Sales Of The 2018 Nissan LEAF?

[@jjanovsky1983]

If Nissan wants us to believe that battery degradation will no longer be a major issue, they should upgrade battery capacity warranty to 80% at 8years/150K miles

[@tarassu]

Centurion1973 I agree. Good numbers.

[@josealbreyes]

Hybrids in CARB states have 150,000 mile, 10 year warranty on the hybrid battery. CARB should require automakers to guaranty 80% capacity after 10 years or 150,000 miles for carpool stickers and state rebates.

[@NAY2GAS]

My 2013 SL has dropped 31% in 4.5 years, Trying to lose another 2% so that I can get a free replacement.

[@chazsmith4351]

You stole my response Centurion. Great minds ... except I was going to go with ten years. This was something Hyundai did back in the day when it needed to gain trust in the quality of its vehicles and they still do it. Other than Kia, I I don't think any other manufacturer does this. I always thought at some point the other manufacturers would have to match to stay in the game but it hasn't worked out that way. Come on Nissan, time to put your money where your mouth is and back up the talk.

[@chazsmith4351]

www.UBUYGAS.com Perkins Leaf Spy I have lost 23% on my 2012. My warranty runs out next February. I expect that there will some further battery degradation but I bet I won't be getting a free battery under warranty. I predict that I will have 75% battery health at the end of the warranty. We will see.

[@solteszan]

It seems that the 2gen battery (most 2014+ Leaf units) is degrading way-way slower than the 1gen battery. The 2018 Leaf gets the 3rd gen battery which should be even better. I live in a moderate climate so: if the passive BMS is good for 200K km to 80% (which seems to be the case even for the 2nd gen) then I actually prefer the passive system since it is one less thing to malfunction and makes the car more affordable. Liquid cooling is nice but it does complicate the battery pack (pump, piping...etc), makes it less reliable and makes it more expensive.

[@daveincanada785]

Not really an issue, it's all controlled by software. The software prevents the battery being damaged by repeated quick charges. How is this a major PR disaster? The car is doing what it was designed to do, be a city commuter at an affordable price.

[@JohnDoe-vx3z]

I guess they skimped on active cooling because it's cheaper.

[@JohnGeorgeBauerBuis]

The relatively mild Japanese climate is also probably a factor.

[@SWR112]

I’d simply not buy this car on this alone, do they get that or are they idiots?

[@JohnGeorgeBauerBuis]

I'm also doubtful that they can sufficiently minimize degradation without an active thermal management system in most climates outside Japan.

[@FFVoyager]

John George Bauer-Buis do you think Japan has a unique climate? It snows in winter (I've been in Tokyo in a blizzard where every driver uses plastic snow chains!) and the summer is hot and humid (@35c). How does that compare?

[@zymurgic]

This isn't actually the 2nd generation Leaf battery pack. It's the 3rd. The original Leaf's had thermal issues in hot climates that caused premature degredation. When they did the refresh and produced what many people call Gen 2 - when production was globalised, the battery chemistry was changed to the 'lizard' battery packs, which appear to degrade less in higher temperatures. The latest Leaf may have different chemistry again, and hopefully, they have been doing lots of research into the causes of degradation, and the new chemistry is good. That said, the Nissan e-nv200 van has active thermal management on the battery pack, so Nissan have at least dabbled with active thermal management.

[@JeanPierreWhite]

The e-NV200 uses a circulation fan which is a far cry from liquid cooled systems Tesla and other manufacturers use. It can't be considered as active thermal management IMHO. Consider the battery is at 100F and the outside temperature is 100F, the fan will do nothing to cool the battery down. Liquid cooled systems will keep the battery at the optimal temperature.

[@josealbreyes]

Niki I agree 100%. The main reason I passed on the Leaf was the reports of significant battery degradation in hot climates. I live in socal and even here leaf's suffer significant battery degradation. Compared to GM and Tesla. The pack of the Model S and Volt will outlast the life of the car. With the Leaf a significant percentage owners will require have a replacement pack within the warranty time frame. Not to mention the environmental cost of replacing and recycling the pack. Electric cars have to be better in every single way to ICE cars. I dare say that no Leaf can last more than 100.000 miles without needing a new battery pack do to battery degradation. In contrast the highest mileage Volt has 400,000 and a Tesla has 300,000 on the original battery pack with minimal battery degradation. Electric cars that have batteries that last the life of the car. Have the advantage of expanding electric car adoption by making them a option in the used car market 10 years down the line. For that reason. I would pass on the leaf and buy a Bolt or Model 3.

[@tarassu]

My leaf is at 60k miles. 9% degradation

[@jasonhadid7477]

Arnis Tarassu Just out of curiosity where do you live and how did you achieve this? Do you keep it between 30% and 70% charge at all times and never fast charge in summertime?

[@AndrewandDebbie]

There are some UK LEAF taxis that are well over 100,000 miles. Special case as Taxis don't see typical use at all.

[@talhabinumeed650]

EV's should be designed for global use, a good thermal management means EV can boom in hot climate of asia as well.

[@antoinem01]

Oh dear. You make it sound as if a disaster is about to happen. Recently finished 1.800 km roadtrip through France is lovely (hot!) whether only using the Sodretel fastcharging network. No heat issues. Returned through the Ardennes fastcharging in Luxemburg and in Belgium. No heat issues. Aren't you blowing this out of proportion? Most people slow charge at home (you yourself I believe?) They will hardly ever see the battery heat indicator move. So although perception is a slippery snail to catch and manage, best stick to real world experience. You get what you pay for and what you get really delivers. I have no commercial interests with Nissan or Renault. Just happen to drive a 2017 Leaf which does an excellent job for our household!

[@tonys9413]

Summer temp in Florida is brutal. I was seriously considering the Leaf to replace my VW TDI next year; not without an active battery thermo management system, though.

[@misterg4059]

Tony S don't do it my 2016 Leaf SV lost third bar at 22k miles in central Florida

[@chazsmith4351]

Mister G Sounds like you are well on your way to a free warranty replacement battery. Hope it works out for you. It would be a real pr boost if they would replace it with a new actually improved chemistry 40 kwhr battery. By the way what is your effective range on the 30 kwhr batter having lost those three bars compared to when new?

[@misterg4059]

Chaz Smith depending on climate control use and if I drive in ECO mode it ranges from 72-78 miles of range. My lease is up 1/2019 but I would be made whole by Nissan if they exchange 2018 Leaf for my 2016 once 4th bar is lost. But I'm buying tesla model 3 regardless of what Nissan agrees to do.

[@chazsmith4351]

Mister G Good luck with your Leaf. Here's hoping Nissan takes at least decent care of you and that the model 3 turns out to a very satisfactory choice. I am a day one model 3 reservation holder but am not sure yet that I will get one. The rumored model Y or something similar small to midsized SUV is what I really really want.

[@TheVasmi]

Hello guys. I have a 2016 Nissan Leaf 30kw with 11,500 miles and have lost 2 bars already, battery degradation is really bad I’m also in Florida.

[@worldhello1234]

It is not a Tesla and the reason for the aircooling is obviously a cost cutting measure. Engineers restricted power output and topspeed.

[@guamae]

Even if the new cell technology keeps the temperature down during use, wouldn't it still heat up bad during quick-charging?

[@AndrewandDebbie]

Not as much. The internal resistance works both ways.

[@guamae]

I know that reducing the internal resistance would Help... I'm just thinking that if you're charging the entire battery over 15 minutes, it'll generate a lot more heat than discharging the battery over 2 hours of driving. I don't know all the terminology to explain it, but I know my phone heats up a lot worse during charging than during use.

[@lawrencetaylor4101]

I have a Leaf and a NV-200. I have been in communication with them on a Eurpean level, and I can tell you that it is a compliance car. It is too bad since I have more fun driving the Nissan with the manual regen, I wanted to cancel my Model 3 reservation and take the Leaf. But without an infrastructure for charging, I am reading that in America the network is woefully inadequate, as it is in Europe, I think that it is time to take action. You can complain about no charging stations, but do you know why? The Petroleum Lobby and the Koch Brothers are happily campaigning against EV installations, and the major car makers are happy to go along with the game. Meanwhile, there are about 10 million people that need to find alrernative housing, and Houston is still reeling from Hurrican Rex. But the media in Europe is not talking about the ecological catastrophe that is happening. I have an apartment in Germany, and we have no fast chargers in this Solar City of over 300,000 people. And the Germans hate EV. I don't trust the Germans (except for Audi, which is under pressure from their union) to move to EV. I would suggest that you telephone your government and ask why they aren't moving. Become active. The time of polite conversation is over, don't be rude but insist.

[@gedw99]

Lawrence Taylor I live in Berlin and have 2 X Tesla model 3 reservations. There is a Tesla superchargers 20 minutes drive away but reality is that you need to own a house and charge at night to really get into electric cars. Germany has about 42% home ownership which is very low by euro standards. So yes I agree that charging stations being ubiquitous is the only way electric cars will be a real option here.

[@epeon7]

The US charging stations are increasing about 30% per year. This means they double every 2.5 years. So, I think this problem will go away

[@mattw9764]

Battery degradation happens but is not the issue it's hyped to be in places with reasonably temperate climates, such as Japan, the UK, New Zealand (where I live) and probably parts of the US. The experience seems to be that the original Leaf battery degrades more and more slowly as time goes on, with a benchmark being something like 80% +/- 5-10% after 4-5 years (or something like that). Check out this graph: 5vtj648dfk323byvjb7k1e9w-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/nissan-leaf-battery-soh.jpg from: www.fleetcarma.com/monitoring-battery-health-matters-ev-owners/ The main point is that the rate of degradation is tending to slow over time and the cumulative degradation is tending to (quasi-)stabilise. Effectively, it means that older Leafs do have a shorter range capability than when brand new (mine's down to something around 100 km -- although with slow driving much further). But, for a large proportion of used car buyers, this range will be perfectly adequate for most of their transport needs (particularly, for commuting) and that will be even more the case as charging networks further develop. Also, owners of older Leafs in temperature climates can anticipate a slow rate of degradation out to 10 years old, as shown by the table at: www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Battery_Capacity_Loss So, for example, the battery degradation model predicts my car will have 60-65% capacity after 10 years (presently around 80% after 5 years). We'll see, perhaps. Anyway, I've done over 20K km in the last year with my (2012, 10-capacity bar) Leaf without any range issues whatsoever. It's the cheapest (by a long way), most reliable, smoothest, quietest motoring I've ever done.

[@EdwardGarrenMFT]

I got a 2011 Leaf, with a degraded battery. It dropped from 9 bars to 8, 3 monts after the class action agreement (5 Years/50,000 miles). They didn't even offer a prorated discount on the $6500 cost of replacing the battery. The car was "Nissan Certified" bought (used) from a Nissan dealer. So much for keeping their "word" or even acknowledging a problem. The "lizard" battery came out in 2015 and those cars seem to experience far less battery degradation, so perhaps their claim of different battery chemistry are valid. Only time and miles will determine this. Also, cars in northern climates don't seem to experience battery degradation to the extent that they do in hot areas like parts of CA and most of AZ. I sold the 2011 Leaf, and am seriously looking at a Mitsubishi I-MiEV because they are VERY cheap, and they have active battery thermal management (via the climate control system). Eat your heart out Nissan. After watching many reviews of the I-MiEV, what seems consistent is that test drivers are not thrilled with the car, but OWNERS LOVE THEM. Personally, I love the futuristic look of it, and it would appear that they have NO battery degradation issues. Also, EVERY I-MiEV comes with a standard ChaDeMo DC fast charging port. Not even the Mercedes B Class comes with that, at any price.

[@V10PDTDI]

Edward Garren hi I think the I miev battery is cooled with a fan so it does have some sort of calling but it's not liquid cooling

[@ClarenceDold]

The i-Miev has been discontinued. That doesn't seem like a good feature in a car.

[@josealbreyes]

I strongly suggest you take a look at the 500e. Spark EV or a Volt. All have liquid cooled pack.

[@ClarenceDold]

Jo Rey two of those are discontinued, and the third has a CEO asking us not to buy them

[@josealbreyes]

But, they can all be had for less 10,000 dollars.

[@V10PDTDI]

Hi Nikki I'm a European car fan and I was wondering about the VW E- Golf I never heard of any battery issue because the pack has no active cooling but Volkswagen call there cels marathon cells meaning they don't take a fast charge and they also don't discharge fast either. Just wondering if you heard any negative thing about the battery degradation.

[@josealbreyes]

The Ampera-E is a great option. But cost more than the E-Golf.

[@Miata822]

Life of a battery largely depends on the climate it lives in. Steve marsh in Washington state has over 150,000 miles on the original battery. At less than half that mileage i've already been through two batteries here in Texas. The chevy Volt has active cooling and went on sale a year earlier. While they are owned and driven all over the country not a single Volt batter has yet been replaced.

[@wedrive-derblogfurelektrom2899]

Also teslabjoern already told, that the eGolf battery gets very hot after 2-3 times of charging at CCS DC - and in winter with cold cells - you wont reach peak kW charging power of 40 kW. Thats why i purchased a Hyundai IONIQ electric - with battery heater and active cooling. That provides always 45 up to 69 kW DC Power. Greetings from Austria ;)

[@MyMrkeys]

It depends on where you live. In Kingston, Ontario, Canada on the hottest days this summer my battery temperature indicator never went more than 4 bars over the bottom 2 blue "too cold" bars. I don't drive over 105km/hr when on the freeway and haven't used level 3 charging. No problems with overheating. There is a battery heater which never seems to get mentioned. It keeps the battery from becoming inert on really cold days. One thing to keep in mind when determining how much range you have is that you lose about 1/3 of your range at - 20C. Based on experience with 3-kwh 2016 Leaf.

[@jasonhadid7477]

MyMrkeys Wait until you do a summertime roadtrip with it. After 2 fast charges you will see it quickly go into the red on the battery temp gage.

[@robrice2004]

I live in Ohio so my Nissan Leaf temperature never goes over 6 bars so I think they are targeting the Northern states and Japan for sales.

[@idmhead0160]

A question I have is whether it will be possible to upgrade to a better battery without having to get an entirely new car. I have a 2015 LEAF. Let's say I start running into battery problems 5 years from now, but, that Nissan came out with a better battery by then. Do I need to buy a whole new car to get the better battery? I suspect yes. But, that speaks badly for the environment. I think it is ridiculous that you should have to buy an entirely new car for that. More CO2 going into the atmosphere to build the new car. What about prices for the old batteries that will work? Will the prices come down? Or, will they say, no, that's an old battery so there is a premium for it even though pricing for newer batteries has come down?

[@DefiantAML]

I asked a dealer close to where I live, and they said with this leaf, the batteries have an 8 year warranty. (unlike the old one that had no warranty) And even though its passively cooled, it probably means its a better battery with longer life if they are willing to guarantee it for that long. Worst case scenario, they just replace it for you if it degrades too fast.

[@cpayne8177]

Not everyone can afford a Tesla, and not everyone is going to settle for a smaller EV which happens to have battery mgmt. The Leaf is a compromise that is good enough in non extreme environments. 60,000 Leaf preorders show clearly that people aren't as militant about a minor issue like battery cooling. The owner just needs to care more for the car than the Tesla owner would.

[@bstevens9831]

DC fast charging can be an issue if you take a trip and need to do a couple/three DCFCs. My suspicion is Arizona summer heat will negatively impact fast charging. Just another point in favor of active cooling.

[@AntonEMaes]

150 miles is bladder range but you want 10-20% buffer for wind, hills and rain. 200+ is the right answer. 300 probably excessive

[@BatmanASB]

There is no such thing as excessive range, it's more of a buffer for emergencies, laziness (who want to charge that often?), hills, and weather.

[@AntonEMaes]

For now that range costs quite a bit of money and if you're going further than 1 charging stop away (let's say 500 miles) you'll still be waiting to add range. Maybe you'll save yourself 20 minutes on a trip of several hours, which in my experience is within the variability that traffic and weather add. Is it nice to have? Sure, but do the math on how often you actually do a trip like that and add up the time saved, then divide the cost by that time. You'll find you're paying a hefty sum per hour just to save some time drinking coffee and checking twitter. For me this was about $50 an hour for the upgrade from a 60kwh to 75kwh battery but that was when the upgrade was $10k instead of $2k today. Even then I'm not sure it's worth it to me. Feel free to check this out for yourself on ev-tripplanner. there you can plan trips with different battery sizes to compare total trip time. In local use you really only use about 100 miles a day if you're really commuting a lot, which you can recharge overnight or at work. So you'd have this big expensive battery you're not really getting much use out of. If you don't have those options and plan on using DC fast charging for daily driving EV life probably isn't for you yet. Now if you plan on towing, or using high drag accessories like ski-boxes in cold weather, then perhaps some more capacity is useful in order to keep your drag limited range above 150 miles.

[@idmhead0160]

The heater seems to zap the battery the most from what I can tell. I live in the Midwest US. I have a 2015 LEAF. I haven't lost range as far as I can tell, although I'm not sure exactly how to check. I have been driving a different car in the winter. The heater in the LEAF is weak and I only have a 80 mile range to begin with. I think I heard the LEAF has a heat pump upgrade that is supposed to be more efficient. I have no idea why that isn't just a standard option if that is true.

[@AntonEMaes]

I think the later Leafs all have heat pumps as well as resistive heaters. When the temperature gets very low though a heat pump isn't as efficient since there's less heat to pull out of the air. so the resistive heater has to start working hard. Since the battery isn't actively heated, it's probably losing a bit of range just to being cold as well. Even with a Tesla it's smart to pre-heat the car from the app 30 minutes before you need it just to trigger the battery to warm up, or use smart preconditioning

[@JeanPierreWhite]

I agree with you that 200 miles is the sweet spot. When looking at either the standard or long range Model 3 I planned several trips we take to the beach. To the Gulf coast, the difference between the 300 mile M3 and the 200 mile M3 is one extra stop to visit a supercharger. (Three stops versus two). We make that trip once every 2-3 years, I think I can put up with one extra stop and save myself $9,000 by getting the standard battery. 300 miles is nice, but I'm going to put money into the premium interior instead, something I will get the benefit from everyday.

[@suryadnb]

I own a 2013 Renault ZOE, with passive battery cooling. After 3.5 years and 50.000km, several long distance travels with up to 10 43kW charge sessions a day during those, degradation is not noticeable in day to day use. According to my myEV app, the battery health is now around 96%. So I guess the degradation in the first gen Leaf is a combination of the passive cooling with cell chemistry, not just the cooling.

[@TheMailrouter]

My original Leaf has less than 50% of its original range left. i get 40 miles on a good day when i baby it below 55mph. Stupid

[@AndrewandDebbie]

Battery technology has improved since the original 2011 LEAF. Our 2014 LEAF with the 2nd generation battery only lost about 6% capacity in 3 years and 30,000 miles. We do live in the UK where it never gets hot. We've now moved on to the 3rd Generation 30kWh battery which Nissan claim is even better. They've backed up the 30kWh pack with a much better warranty.

[@xkitejunkie]

Does the new leaf even have a way of displaying capacity on the dash? I haven't spotted it on any pictures yet so was wondering if Nissan has simply removed the guage. Sneaky? Not saying that's the right thing to do but people would certainly be a lot less aware of there simply wasn't a capacity guage. Our first gen 2012 Leaf has just lots its first capacity bar (15%) and has done 58000 miles which I am ok with but I do live in the UK.

[@zdenek3010]

Battery degradation could be resolved just by increasing energy density. Degradation is slowing down so losing from 100% to 90% is quicker than losing from 80% to 70%, so if you can pack as much energy that 70% would still give enough range, then you can use that battery until other parts of the car fall off.

[@xbxb]

Forget about if the lack of thermal cooling in the battery will harm the sales, most of the buyer and dealership have no idea about that and they won't tell if of course. The most important thing is the life and health of the battery.

[@weleshboatian5159]

So es the "Zoe" have active B/M?

[@Trades46]

It will always be a balance between cost & usability. The Bolt & Model 3 may have battery thermal management but they also suffer cost-cutting in various measures - the Bolt has thinly padded seats & lacks a heat pump, while the Model 3 has a very spartan interior, a short list of standard equipment & the hyped base model car would only have a 50kWh battery. The Leaf 40kWh may lack TMS but it really only affects areas of hot climate (over 100F degrees) or owners who frequently drive long distances & rapid charges often, but honestly even the vaunted Model S would suffer degradation if Supercharger is frequently used. The biggest factor here is the 2018 Leaf in US starts ~$7k cheaper than the Bolt & unlike the Model 3, can soon be purchased and driven by customers (Tesla still refuses to give any firm date on actual deliveries on the Model 3 that isn't their employees). The lack of thermal management hurts, but however because of that reason it is a relatively simple car & cost can be kept down, giving regular car buyers a choice of an EV over an equally priced mid-level Camry or Accord (vs. the starting prices of 3 series & C-class of the Bolt & Model 3).

[@chazsmith4351]

Another great vlog Nikki I will be sure to ask about the warranty at the Portland event next month and during my test the week following. Inquiring minds ...

[@QALibrary]

Nikki this that why your battery in your leaf lost a bar when it was very hot temperature outside when charging due to no active battery thermal management - if so when this starts effecting users it be a PR issue big time and could lead to all kind of brand damage

[@J5045]

I’ve been driving the 2018 Leaf for 6 months (in the UK) in both very cold and very hot conditions. The lack of active thermal management has made no difference to the range or rapid charge performance in both my @30 mile daily commute or longer trips. I’m enjoying driving this car so much and just don’t understand the noise about Rapidgate.

[@mr88cet]

Low internal resistance doesn't help much when and where the daily highs are >100F for months. Good video!

[@ram64man]

For most people not being active thermal doesn't hurt the mk1 leaf unless your in hot climates or doing distance with multiple rapid charging, or the reality is most people drive less than 40 miles a day this range keeps the leaf in cool state, Nissan themselves would class this as a city car where temps stay relevantly cool. My biggest problem with this philosophy though is at the other end of the spectrum in bitter cold weather, sure it may work in testing but as every mk1 owner knows winter in a leaf isn't great as temps stay in the low 2-3 bars, and batter range plumits, I know winter in the others isn't great for range but liquid management works well in this situation so come on Nissan, rethink your decision My hope is the 2019 model with its density and higher charging speed Seriously would you want to charge multiple times on a 150kw no battery chemistry outside r&d has proven stable in these conditions so please Nissan bring will liquid management to the 60kw

[@thebluesclues2012]

Having a LEAF and now getting only 50% of the range since 2011, the lack of after market options to refresh the pack is troublesome. I won't be buying another Nissan but I applaud them for bringing the LEAF to market in the first place. I can't believe Nissan would want not the cars battery packs to be serviceable throughout the life of the car. I assume since the packs are just a simple pack someone will opt to create a simple superior replacement, maybe even Nissan.

[@vdivanov]

Notice that the new Leaf does not appear to have a battery temperature and a battery capacity level gauges as the old one did. Notice that neither Renault nor VW EVs have active TMS, nor do most PHEVs so the lack of one does not necessarily imply premature battery degradation.

[@maxsweeney2032]

Does the 2017 egolf have active thermal management?

[@TKevinBlanc]

No.

[@jimt2349]

Only the Tesla and the Bolt/Ampera-E. Everything else is passive or, at best, a fan.

[@jasonhadid7477]

Jim T That's not true. Hyundai Ioniq, Ford Focus Electric, Kia Soul EV and BMW i3 are all actively cooled, not just a fan. And I'm sure there are others. To my knowledge only Nissan Leaf and E-golf are passive.

[@jimt2349]

Hi - may I ask, how are they regulated? Liquid-cooled? I had just read the only two with active cooling were the Bolt and Tesla, but if I'm happy to learn more.

[@leonieburnham322]

Here in Australia EV's just aren't "a thing" at all sadly... however hot weather and 300km's trips regularly are very much part of our daily considerations. I and many other aussies want to be part of the solution to a planet free of fossil fuel pollutants and there awful wars, but the tech just isn't a feasible investment here yet.

[@LivingDownUnder]

That's exactly right. I'm driving an Outlander PHEV in pure electric mode for my commuting and use the petrol engine when going further. It's a great solution until we have a supporting government for more charging infrastructure and incentives for EV car buyers. None of this is happening at the moment unfortunately due to the fossil fuel industry making big donations to the government and dictating so the course of politics.

[@station240]

Hardly anyone in Australia does 300km's trips regularly, they just like to believe they do. If that sort of range is a DAILY consideration, moving house is a bigger need than an EV.

[@mark194751]

where i live i need a car that can do 300kms in a day in australia

[@dindulogic6103]

free batteries for life, problem solved...

[@skipsteel]

Not too be negative but what they are saying worries me a little. Battery chemistry is a big deal and can make or break Nissan's reputation. Lets hope they are right.

[@qatarax]

Well this video is very prescient given the current #rapidgate discussions. I think we're seeing the Nissan solution to the Thermal Management issue is to throttle rapid charging rates at higher battery temperatures. The same solution VW came up with for the 2018 e-golf by the looks of it.

[@stevec6543]

Hi Nikki, you were so right with this report. Rapidgate as it's now known is going to become even more interesting in the coming months, with real life testing by current owners. Their cars will hopefully have more than one person in the car, running the AC in higher ambient temperatures and driving the car at higher but legal speeds. I hope Nissan sort this out soon, its a great car and we need it to be successful.

[@super-sim1665]

Great topic. Leaf needs 200 mile range and some sort of heat management. It's a safety range of 50 -100 miles we want after 100 miles travelling for traffic jams, divertions and broken charge points etc.

[@RedBatRacing]

The bladder argument doesn't stack up. It takes 5min to dash into the bathroom and out, then you are left with an additional 20min or more to kill, which you will spend drinking more coffee than you need. With a larger battery, you are more likely to only need a quick topup when bladder range limited.

[@RyanSargent]

To answer your question with hindsight, apparently so. Rapid charging issues. Great that you're so in tune that you saw this coming 6 months early.

[@bellshooter]

Nikki, as far as I can see the vast majority of unusual battery degradation happened in US southern hot states where dealerships decided to fully charge packs on arrival, and then stored the cars that way in outdoor lots in extreme temperatures. A failure in dealership training rather than anything else. Current owners are still being advised to charge 100% when leaving to go away for holidays etc!

[@mothafus]

Nope, is a issue in Europe as well. I had a case in which i had driven about 300 KM (200 miles) and had quick charged 3 times and the car would not start charging a fourth time... I had to wait 15 minutes for it to cool before it would start charging. And you get 5-10% battery capacity loss per year depending on how much you quickcharge etc. but the weather is so varied that in the winter you really do need heating (up to -30C) and during the summer you need cooling (up to +30C)

[@transportevolved]

Thing is, I know people in the Pacific Northwest with battery degradation too -- less than in hotter states, but still noticeable.

[@JeanPierreWhite]

@Dave BelI I was one of the first owners of the 2011 LEAF and picked it up pretty much as soon as it arrived at the dealer. It didn't sit around at full charge for a long time. In addition I was religious about 80% charges almost all the time and the battery still degraded like others. Blaming it on the dealer is silly. Since the introduction of the 2014 LEAF, it is no longer possible to charge a LEAF to 80% they all charge to 100%. It's not possible for an owner to set the car to charge to anything lower than 100% should the dealer actually give such advice. As for going away on Holiday, of course you would charge to 100%, (even with an earlier LEAF) since you will be driving a greater distance. To suggest otherwise is bizarre. You seem to have blamed three things for the LEAF's battery issues. Hotter climates, bad dealer practices and advice and finally the owner. Has it ever occurred to you that the battery system on the LEAF might be poorly engineered and subject to premature degradation?

[@marcvanleeuwen5986]

Hi Nikki, you generally have great content, though I won't always leave comments saying so. However, in this case I don't agree. I simply don't think active thermal management is directly about avoiding battery degradation in the long run; it is about being able to demand more activity from the batteries in a given span of time while remaining within safe operating conditions. This is good for long road trips in hilly terrain for instance, with heavy power demands alternating with fast charging. Without active cooling, one is simply not able to do that without factoring in substantial time for the batteries to cool down. But for the longevity of the battery, I simply don't see that active cooling can do much. In fact the kind of use where using active cooling would be necessary is putting stress on the battery anyway, so it can only _hurt_ longevity a bit; but it would of course be silly to given the give the active cooling any blame for that. I know that early Leafs had battery degradation problems in hot climates, but that seems more a matter of battery chemistry (which appears to have improved since) than of lack of thermal management. Indeed I wonder if active thermal management is actually designed to handle the question of external heat while the car is turned off. As in: I leave the car all day in the blazing sun, does it continuously run a refrigeration unit to keep its cool, so that I will find the battery in perfect health but having lost part of its charge at the end of the day? So no, I don't think active cooling will be an important point for most prospective buyers of the Leaf, certainly those for which price is a crucial factor; I think Nissan played this well. They might still decide to offer active cooling for the version with a 60kWh battery announced for 2019, for which it would make more sense.

[@davidwillwill5697]

I have had two Leafs and neither of them have shown any sign of degradation, albeit after two years in each case. In the UK I find there are more than enough charge stations to get where I want to go.

[@karlp8484]

You're right, YOU mentioned that the battery chemistry was improved, at the launch, but Nissan haven't communicated that well at all. You've had your Bolt now for several weeks, could you give a detailed review of the car?

[@fordstan55]

Craigs401 I totally agree with Longsnowsm. I was very disappointed with the 2018 Leaf. Nissan is still practicing the art of distraction by talking about things like the "floating roof" instead of battery cooling. My 2013 Leaf with 22,000 miles is down to 90% capacity and that's really good compared to others. Since Nissan says that the new battery is the "same form factor" as the older batteries a lot of people are hoping that Nissan will sell them a 40kw battery. That will never happen. Nissan is in the business of selling cars, not batteries. Other than the battery, I like the rest of the car and want to keep it so I'm hoping that I can buy a better battery from an aftermarket supplier in the next three or four years.

[@aventineavenue]

Nikki, you said basically everything I've been think for some time about the gen 1 and "new" '18 LEAF. And I think it has more authenticity and impact coming from a LEAF owner-advocate than a Volt's.

[@energiewender143]

Another factor for battery degradation is deep-cycling the battery: charging it to 100% then discharging it close to 0%. Tesla recommends to charge the battery only to 85% regularly, and avoid bringing down the battery below 15% to keep it healthy. Can you program the LEAF to charge only to 85% or will it fully charge unless you pull the plug before that happens?

[@gimmepowder]

Yes you can. I believe it is 80% on my Leaf if I set it in the menu. Personally I don't bother as I'm either at a public charger and returning before full or Level 1 at home. Most of the time it's somewhere in the middle but occasionally gets deep cycled due to circumstances. I'm north of the 49th so climate is generally milder.

[@josealbreyes]

That is a factor for sure. But, basically a non issue for most other ev's Batteries really do not like heat and it's rather leaving the car charged for prolong periods of time that degrades capacity.

[@jasonhadid7477]

Marcus Rudel The first gen Leaf you could set that 80% charging limitation. But not since 2013

[@mosfet500]

Nikki, you made the right decision in getting the Bolt.

[@KTPurdy]

The fact that Nissan kicks down the rate of L3 charging after the initial fast charge of the trip, clearly demonstrates that the Leaf needs a TMS. My guess is that Nissan isn't saying anything cause the 2019 model will have an upgraded pack that includes active cooling. If that is true, there is no win today and win tomorrow scenario of talking about it.

[@rhmagalhaes]

Not only that but this may make shoppers to wait and see which means model 3 will be running around and the comparison will be real. This way Nissan may end up not selling a lot not only because the battery but the similar price tag from model 3 and even an used model s 60. I went to a dealer to check th prices here in FL and i was amazed b the starting point of 31k after delivery fee for the s trim. Make it a 38k for the sl trim and 7k more you can have a tesla model s with double the charge and active cooling

[@chazsmith4351]

Rodrigo H N Magalhaes to be fair you're comparing a loaded SL leaf which they'll be a good chance a person will be able to get at least some discount and or a subsidized by Nissan via federal and in some cases state tax incentives lease with a barebones Tesla Model 3 which does not have double the range but has about 65 or 70 more miles more range. That Tesla is not going to be discounted and it is very doubtful that there will be a lease available at any comparable price. I say this as a fan of both cars and a first day reservation holder on the model 3. Both cars have their advantages and disadvantages and individuals are gonna have to sort out and prioritize their needs and wants. On the plus side for the Nissan, I prefer hatchbacks and I really like the idea of an entertainment system that uses either Apple play or Android Auto. I would also prefer an all wheel drive car and access to the Tesla Supercharger Network so advantedge model 3 in those respects. Might just have to get one of each 😉probably by leasing the Nissan and Vine the model 3. At the end of the Nissan Leaf lease, Tesla should have the model y ready. Given this completion, I think it also possible that Chevrolet may come along with an exceptional lease offer on the Bolt and/or the Volt that I just can't resist. Lots to consider.

[@mjp0815]

I think Nissan still sees the Leaf as a "second car" and the use pattern for a second car is mostly short trips with ample breaks in between. This car is simply is not designed for the motorway. Also, internal resistance it a very big deal, if it is low, heat becomes much less of an issue, unless you are in a hot climate.

[@Hero007ization]

Dear Lady, Nissan works closely with Matsushita Electric which is a pioneer in Battery innovation.(They Provide Batteries all over the world) I wouldn't worry much for the new generation battery engineered in Nissan leaf.

[@gegwen7440]

Had a test drive of the new Leaf and yes I was impressed, found the E-Pedal neat but later did wonder how tireing it would be for my foot over an hour or so ? As a potential EV buyer started looking on the web and found out about this battery degradation & will shy away from Nisssan until they give a longer warrenty on that. IMO it should be at least 100k miles ! and will now study what the others are offering ?

[@lifeisallalboutbalan]

Great point NIKKI. Thank you 🙏

[@carpenterfamily6198]

Does the Hyundai Ionic EV have an active battery temp management system ? I like the new LEAF and currently drive a leased 2016 LEAF, but would like to buy my next EV. We've already lost one bar on our 2016 and don't want to buy an EV that will have battery problems.

[@josealbreyes]

I dont think so. I think it has a active air system. But, i know Hyundai warrants the battery for the life of the car.

[@jujitsuboy730]

Carpenter Family The Nissan Leaf is the only EV I've seen or driven that even has a temperature gauge or a battery degradation gauge if that tells you anything 😞

[@danielsenic]

It has active fan - sucks air from cabin (below rear seats) through the battery and blows it in the trunk.

[@carpenterfamily6198]

jujitsuboy730 It is true the LEAF has those gauges but your point isn't clear to me. I'm not sure other EVs don't have the same battery info elsewhere. I suspect Nissan prominently displays battery temp b/c it doesn't have a temp management system. Perhaps it's displayed so the user will be mindful of battery temp and act accordingly. As for the other battery health gauge - displaying the info doesn't mean they have a battery problem. Hiding doesn't mean other EVs don't have a problem. But the fact does remain that Lithium batteries are healthier if kept in a temperature range. An active system ( which the LEAF does not have) will do that. A bigger issue for me personally is the lack of a programmable means of stopping charge b/f the battery reaches 100%. Every morning our LEAF starts its day @ 100% , which is not ideal for Lithium batteries. Then we have a mile long hill to descend which the Regen braking system can't handle b/c the battery is already full. We got this car in Dec 2016. It lost its first bar about a month ago. We live in Northeast Pennsylvania. It does not get particularly hot here. I think every EV needs an active temp management system for the battery.

[@jasonhadid7477]

Carpenter Family That's pretty shocking. Just out of curiosity how many miles did you drive in that 10 month period? Also did you charge it up every night to 100% and did you fast charge multiple times a day in summertime?

[@williamcox1176]

Can anyone tell me the most efficient charge rate for an ev. At home i can charge mine from 1.5 to 7 kw per hour. Obviously 7kw will be quicker. But don't drive much when in bed asleep. Always thought batteries like a long slow charge. And does the Ioniq have active or passive battery heat management. Any thoughts?

[@JeanPierreWhite]

The difference between 1.5 and 7kW charge rates isn't worth the time or trouble. If you can charge at 7Kw then do so.

[@LivingDownUnder]

While driving the car the battery needs to deliver 50-80kW. It takes up to 40kW back when you do hefty regen braking. This is what puts stress on the battery. So charging it with 'only 7kW' is totally fine. However I agree that if you have the choice charge as slow as possible for the purpose of balancing the battery pack. The faster you charge the less balanced the pack will be. Manufactures don't recommend to fast charge all the time for that reason. If you know you need the car fully charged in the morning at 7am adjust the charging speed accordingly so it's fully charged 1h before you leave. This gives the pack some time to cool and re-balance the cells before the hard work begins...

[@staudtj1]

The charger that's built into your car varies the kw depending on pack voltage. As it gets close to full charge, it reduces current until full.

[@williamcox1176]

Jean-Pierre White Thanks for your reply. With super charging at over 50kwh i suppose 7kw isn't going to harm it. I was thinking efficiency. 1.5 creates less heat but for a longer time. So as you say pob bugger all differents.

[@williamcox1176]

Living Down Under I never thought of battery balance. When in no hurry to go anywhere i often charge at about 2kw to suck the surplus of the solar panels. Doesn't work so well at night. Cheers

[@frankmattes8185]

Which currently on sale EVs do have an active thermal management ?

[@tonys9413]

Frank Mattes Clearly you did not watch the video! And if you did, it’s even worse

[@MrHairyTeabag]

Tesla, BMW i3, KIA Soul (via the climate control system - air rather than liquid cooling I believe), Chevy Bolt.

[@josealbreyes]

Almost all of them do. The Leaf has a passive air system. The Ioniq and E-Golf have a active air system.

[@LivingDownUnder]

Even my Outlander PHEV has an active thermal BMS and uses fans and the aircon to cool the battery in summertime or under heavy load

[@staudtj1]

I have a Electric Ford Focus 2015. It both heats or cools the batteries as the differing conditions warrant here in Michigan.

[@ianphillip4561]

I was really hoping that the 2018 Leaf was going to be the answer to my EV needs, but it really does look like Nissan have made some inexplicable choices in developing this model. Compared to its direct rivals (the Model 3 and the Bolt) it's down on power, has a weedy battery and very poor range. That they've also opted to cheap out on active cooling for the batteries is astonishing. Yes, it's the cheapest of those three vehicles, but not by much. And while the rest of the industry is making giant leaps forward in their EVs, Nissan has chosen to take baby steps. It's really sad to see their early lead in EV development being lost due to such timidity.

[@burnthis9969]

Is it possible that the battery has new chemistry, (and an industry secret at present) that does not require active thermal management?

[@jasonhadid7477]

Burn This No.

[@epeon7]

Pretty hard to drop $30,000 on an EV and not be confident that the battery will last. Honestly, probably the reason I will buy a Bolt

[@epeon7]

Yes, the degradation of Leaf batteries is a big issue. You are looking at almost $10 K in cost to replace it. So, I am hesitant to buy it.

[@by9917]

The lack of ABTM will have direct impact on me. I have a 2015 Leaf and have seen no problem, even in the heat of OK. I only lease, so the lease cost is my largest concern, which is mostly influenced by residual value, which may be impacted by ABTM. I will most likely get a 2018 Leaf, because nothing the horizon appears to be a better value.

[@jasonhadid7477]

B Y Ummmmm.... Tesla Model 3 ??

[@LancePickup]

Two comments on lack of active cooling: 1) It's not just about battery degradation. If you are on a long trip and need to do multiple quick charges, active cooling can help avoid maxing out battery temp. This past spring (not even summer) after just 2 quick charges my battery temp hit the red zone and I lost one acceleration bubble. Now it barely hit the red zone and once I was underway again I got it back. But if I had had to do a 3rd quick charge, no doubt it would have been a more severe limitation. 2) On the other hand, the biggest issue I had with my first LEAF with respect to battery degradation due to heat was not while the LEAF was plugged in & charging, but rather simply when it was parked out in hot weather. I don't think an active cooling system would have helped with that situation anyway.

[@Chrisb8s]

Well here in Arizona a Leaf with now thermal management is not good unless it is one of the 2017 leafs that get a $10k discount... squeezing 10 more KWH into the same space doesn't seem to be a great idea... also.. I agree, most people need to take a bathroom break after 100 or so miles... finding a Chademo 100 miles from Phoenix.. is not possible... they dont exist yet.

[@LostInIce4]

Chris Bates actually having more energy in the same pack size leads to better thermal management since you have more density to absorb the heat, therefore a cooler running battery. The new battery has lower internal resistance and that also leads to less heat.

[@phf77]

It might also impact on the ability to make the occasional long journey, reaching high battery temperatures after repeated rapid charging.

[@jasonhadid7477]

Paulo Frings Exactly. This is the main problem even up here in Quebec Canada you really can't go on very long roadtrips with the Nissan Leaf during summertime, the battery simply gets too hot after 2 or more fast charges in a row.

[@electrohawk1]

Yup, killed my purchase of a Leaf. Went with Chevy instead. 100% due to the battery degradation issue directly related to their non TMS technology. If they do fix this, I may switch to the Leaf, due to the better overall build quality of the Leaf, but reliability and battery endurance mad this an impossible purchase. Literally, this was the deal killer for me.

[@jeffreysegal2065]

As electric cars become more common, companies will inevitably face cost/benefit decisions like forgoing complex systems that net trivial gains. Nissan has decided, rightly so I'd say, to do without complex battery cooling.

[@rifleman42051]

this is why you stay away from Nissan! I had a buddy lease a new nissan and 20k miles later it needed the transmission rebuilt....

[@andybryant8341]

I think the env200 has thermal management. I guess this is because delivery drivers or trades will do more rapid charges in a van than someone in a leaf doing the school run.

[@MrAndrew941]

I'm not staying with Nissan, as soon as my contract is up on my leaf I'm moving over to tesla, I have a 400 mile drive home from camp to edinburgh, I have to work my battery hard If I want to make that Journey in eight hours, I need an Active battery management system.

[@acreda1234]

I think we have to wait to see how the 'lizzard' battery chem (2014/5-)does before knowing if Nissan has made a mistake. They certainly could have put more info out...

[@hdrobbe8990]

The Leaf or the Tesla is not for everybody. I drive my Leaf 25 miles one way to the office five days a week without an issue. I would not spend 80k on a Tesla, or 45k on a used one to make that same trip. Additionally, I will not wait 2+ years for delivery of a model 3 because it is the latest craze. I charge to 100% every night and return with 44+/- miles on the GOM in the evenings. If I had to drive 50 miles one way I would rather move. There is space in the marketplace for all kinds of car configurations, so if people don't want to buy a Leaf, I am sure there are others who will. I live in the Atlanta suburbs, and I drive into Atlanta with my 2015 SV.

[@mcopanzan]

Lack of active thermal management is going to reduce its range significantly in cold countries like Norway/Sweden or Canada. It will be interesting if it will lose 30-40% like the other one did, and thats on top of the permanent drop after 3y or so. To bad really.

[@jasonhadid7477]

Marco Panzanni This video was referring to permanent degradation, not temporary range loss in cold weather which is the subject of your comment.

[@super-sim1665]

I think cost is the reason and I would want the water cooled battery over any other feature.

[@cuepusher2504]

Active Thermal Management? A Fan seams Active to me! My High School auto shop teacher pointed out "Evan automobiles with heat transfer fluids and sophisticated heat ex changers are air cooled". may this is a stroke of genus to keep it simple.

[@eb1888.]

Nissan isn't producing a car with 90 miles of range anymore. This model can go 150 miles and the coming 60kWh version should do over 200. These cars can drive greater distances on higher speed freeways regularly. In the US that means 80-85mph. Something many wouldn't do with the last Leaf. Without active battery thermal management the new Leaf will not be able to DC quicker charge after that type of use. At least not without sending the battery over 7 bars into temperatures ranges that can compromise its long-term viability. In some cases you could be denied charging if you are at 11 or 12 bars marked red for overheating. I'd buy an Ioniq with the correct technology instead.

[@72tubedmiaz]

Here , here Nikki! Great show

[@Miata822]

Exactly right. I was waiting for the new LEAF. My '11 is a great car, well built and fun to drive. On the other hand, today it has only 66% of its original battery life... on its SECOND battery. Now well out of warranty this 6 hear old car only gets about 50 miles range in the summer. I dread the falling range of the coming winter. I really wanted the new LEAF to be a winner. Nevertheless I am in serious negotiations today with my local Chevrolet dealer. I simply cannot justify buying a car that may run out of range about the same time it is paid off. Wake up, Nissan. This is not a minor inconvenience.At least put a fan blowing over the battery.

[@chazsmith4351]

Alberto Knox could you share some more details please? For example what is the total mileage you have on your 2011? When did you replace the original battery? I assume that was under warranty for free? Have you contacted Nissan re the poor performance of the replacement battery to see if they would work with you on at least a substantial discount on a third battery? Not that you should have to do this. Also what kind of climate do you live and drive in how often do you quick charge?

[@Miata822]

I bought the car used 2 1/2 years ago with 60,000 miles on it. It showed 12 bars. I called nissan support and they told me the original battery had been changed, but not when. I lost my first bar about a month later. The car now has 81,000 miles on it and the battery is declining rapidly. While it still shows 9 bars LeafSpy only indicates 66% SOH. Today it was in the 80s but humid. I ran the AC but with the temp set just high enough for the compressor to barely be on. Getting 4.4 m/kWh over my 34 mile round trip (including a few extra miles for an errand) never exceeding 45mph. I returned home with 14 miles on the GOM. At the beginning of this year LeafSpy showed showed 73% SOH and I could probably have gone 60 miles at 45mph. I could even get about 40+ miles at the slow version of freeway speed. A year before that i could get an easy 60 miles driving carefully with 10-ish miles on the GOM. I treat the car gently. I've never had the battery heat even up to the bar below the red. I use DCQC very sparingly, never to more than 90%, and usually only enough to get home. LeafSpy shows 25 DCQC events but i'm not sure if that is this battery or lifetime of the car. I certainly haven't used it that many times. I have never discharged until turtle mode came on but I once ran it low enough for the GOM to go blank. At this rate of degradation I expect to be unable to make my commute on one charge while maintaining what I call a safe margin of charge by sometime next summer. That would make the battery perhaps 4 or 5 years old? Compare that to the first gen Chevy Volt that first appeared in 2010. Degradation has been modest and GM has yet to sell a single replacement battery. Sure, the cars are very different, but the active cooling in the Volt, and almost every other successful EV, clearly makes a significant difference. While the temperatures here in North Texas have been mild by our standards for the last couple years, not even reaching 110 once IIRC, the road surface and parking lots can be hot enough to cook that proverbial egg. I bought this car as a toy, just to see if i liked EVs. I do. Now as I contemplate spending real money on a more-than-one-payment car I would consider the new Leaf if it had a more reliable battery. the Leaf build quality is impressive and I expect the next one will be even better. I have considered buying a new battery, it's a fair price really, but not for a battery that may only last 40,000 miles. That's $0.15/mile for the battery alone, the same as cost of fueling a 13mpg car, and that doesn't include charging.

[@chazsmith4351]

Alberto Knox Thanks for sharing those details Alberto. Glad that you have Leaf spy to get the details on the health of the batteries. You make several good points. Maybe I missed it but have you contacted Nissan customer service directly with your concerns regarding the rapid battery degradation of the second battery. I have heard some rather strong rumors that they have helped to subsidized substantial portions of battery replacements. It seems pretty possible that your replacement may have come from the old non lizard battery pile. Just a thought.

[@Miata822]

I spoke to a dealerships customer service rep off the record. He encouraged me to have it tested and start a claim number, then follow up with corporate slowly and politely. I may well do that but a newer car is definitely in my future. I wish it could be the new Leaf. Maybe the coming higher performance version will have cooling.

[@chazsmith4351]

Alberto Knox I hope you do go through corporate and see where it goes, this falls under the you'll never know unless you try. If they don't offer you a reasonable remedy then you'd be fully justified to "Bolt" to another manufacturer. Good luck to you what ever happens and I hope you will share your results with me and the rest of the Transport Evolved class/viewers. Your shared experience might be helpful to a lot of other folks who maybe facing a similar dilemma now or in the very near future.

[@BixbyConsequence]

Thermal management is not without its drawbacks. I would much rather have a battery that doesn't need it. I'm willing to give Nissan the benefit of the doubt, as by now they probably have a better familiarity with the fallout from premature battery degradation than anyone. Sort of like how Microsoft had to get good at security because they started out so bad. I'm leaning towards purchasing the 2018 LEAF outright but the actual battery warranty will influence my decision. Nissan need to put their money where their mouths are regarding this new battery chemistry. For what it's worth, still have all 12 capacity bars on my 3-year-old 2015 LEAF.

[@paulgracey4697]

The proof is in the pudding. I am one who does think Nissan could be right... within the constraints of the car they have built, which was to the price point at which they have been building it. From what I have read over the years the Leaf batteries have only really suffered in very hot climates. I asked about thermal management at the first opportunity I had to ride in an early Leaf at an EV drive event in Santa Monica. I was concerned about cold climate performance as that was what I knew at that time could reduced range. The Nissan engineer I queried assured me they had tested it in Alaska. Then the Arizona problems began to appear. It seems Nissan had designed their cars for the cooler climate Japanese market, which suited northern Europe as well. In considering the design and placement of the battery I realized two factors which aided them in most situations. It was low within the passenger cabin space. That meant in operation it would not be either too cold or too hot as human comfort levels would be maintained. For its home charging, and if work charging were commonplace, the cabin thermal management could also be used to control extremes. The Alaskans, after all, are used to keeping their cars plugged in wherever they go and the habit could be encouraged elsewhere. That leaves the arid southwest and other such areas where covered daytime parking and away from home charging opportunities can be sparse. The attitude of the owners of workplaces to EV owners is often not so felicitous either. So some problems arise that only active thermal management can handle. What amazes me is that Nissan should have known about that. Their American test track is in Casa Grande AZ, which I can attest personally is very hot for much of the year. Having built a popular car at a popular price, with the usual tendencies of major automobile manufacturers to want a customer base willing to buy a new car every so often and one that degrades at a rate similar to its IC stablemates with revamped model changes to entice them into the new line, perhaps Nissan does know what they are doing in the long run. That improved energy density with the newer chemistry will not need as much thermal management as before unless fast charging rates go up to generate the heat that such systems are needed to control.

[@roygardiner4002]

Call me cynical Nikki but I don't doubt Nissan have compared their costs of warranty battery replacements (in cool and hot location sales) versus a proper liquid/pumps/radiator battery cooling system development and decided to go the cheap way.

[@rhandtaru9786]

You can’t fastcharge the Leave more then twice in a row according to several KZbin channel owners. If that is right there is a major problem here wich you didn’t adress at all. That would mean they either lie about there new batterypack or are unaware of this problem. Both scenario’s being dishonoust or misinformed are both much more serious then you are letting on here. Is this done delibirate ?

[@victorradu9645]

Ford Focus EV has active battery cooling too

[@enusser6695]

Sooner or later we will find out what the new battery can handle. The car is made by the japanese so it has to be well done. If anyone can handle electronical problems it will be the guys from japan. At least we will find out and i won´t judge a car that is not on the market yet, just by some numbers.

[@dirtyblond2332]

They just dont get it. The sole reason we skipped right over the leaf because of the battery issues.

[@itz_vulego._.7941]

2016 has new capacity battery, video only mentioned 2011, 2013.

[@ricosuave3083]

Lost 3 bars in my 2016 leaf sv with just 18k miles . Nevada weather. Never will i buy another leaf

[@KTPurdy]

Quite interesting observation. Do you remember how hot the battery got? Was it frequently 5 or 6 or more bars. Did you charge to 100% each day? Would like to understand the details.

[@misterg4059]

Rico Suave I lost 3 bars at 22k miles in central Florida on 2016 Leaf SV, Leaf batteries cannot take the heat.

[@KTPurdy]

+Mister G - I'll offer the same question to you. Can you relate your Leaf's battery temperature experiences? Was the battery's temp frequently above 6 bars? Curious minds want to know. Did your Leaf sit at a high SoC?

[@misterg4059]

Kent Purdy battery temperature remained normal, as for the number of bars I didn't count them. In my opinion, the Leaf's battery pack is not engineered for hot climates. I'm on my second Leaf, I leased 2012 Leaf SL for 3 years and when I returned the car it had lost 3 bars of range.

[@carpenterfamily6198]

Our 2016 SL lost one bar at 30K. This car was our primary driver but now no longer can do our commute range in winter. In the summer it probably could. This is no joke as the car is expensive and now doesn't meet our needs. Future EVs will have to meet these criteria for our family: 1-TMS, 2-Battery charge stoppable @ 80% 3-Range twice that of our daily commute. I also hope they've improved the audio which is poor, even with the Bose upgrade. And the Nav system is so user unfriendly that it is worthless and unusable! Nissan, Just Do It !

[@o00scorpion00o]

And more and more reports are now coming in of severe throttling of DC charging speeds as low as 22 Kw after a 1 st DC charge. While that would mean around 400 Kms of driving before someone needs a 2nd DC charge it will be an absolute pain in the ass to someone who is not expecting a so called fast/rapid charge to take 1 hr 30 mins or more as reported. So ist DC charge at 45 Kw, 2nd DC charge same day, can be as little as 22 Kw. The lack of Thermal management, not as much as a fan is a joke for a Gen II EV.

[@brucekennedy5274]

7 Months ago, wow how prophetic. Nissan Engineer : “Guys we need to put this in, seriously” Nissan Accountant : “Nah, no one will notice”. Guys, EV owner are boffins by their very nature, of course they’ll notice, fret, test, compare, criticise and so on. We’ll have to wait a few years to really see how much it genuinely matters to most Leaf drivers. But if you are planning your next 2000 mile EV Road trip, I’d say this car is probably not for you ;P

[@jdelacruz6854]

Yes it will. Marginal effort as most traditional auto makers do.

[@restaurantattheendofthegalaxy]

Ehh. Much ado about nothing I think. If you live someplace horribly hot maybe you shouldn't buy one? I'm not sure the power drain required to actively cool the battery would even be worth it, as it would just kill your range. I live in Seattle and have no use for hauling all that gear around.

[@mattw9764]

So, how many prospective LEAF buyers live in a reasonably temporate climate, have a daily commute that would drain less than say 70% (or 60% or even 50%) of the full charge, and have an ever developing and filling on network of fast charging stations available to them? The answer is plenty of people. These people will not find the lack active battery management to be much of a practical issue (unless perhaps all they do is hard driving long road trips with repeated fast charging or leave the car parked up fully charged or discharged for extended periods.) Pronounced battery degradation will certainly become a perception issue and self fullfilling profecy if commentators keep talking it up. People in locations or with requirements not suited to the LEAF will consider other options. But that still leaves a huge market for the LEAF who will benefit from the price being lower than it might otherwise.

[@Mayhemm007]

Is it just me, or are more and more e-automakers (Tesla and Nissan included) making unfounded assumptions about their customers' habits and accessibility to charging infrastructure? For example, Tesla has limited the rate of AC charging on its latest vehicles (19kW -> 17kW for high-end vehicles and all others limited to 10kW with no option to upgrade) Tesla's justification for this is that their Supercharger network makes high-speed AC charging unnecessary. Well, I'm over 1000 miles away from the nearest Supercharger and have to rely on AC charging for 99% of my charging needs! IMO, it's stupid for automakers to cut off large groups of potential customers before Level 3 fast charging networks are sufficiently developed.

[@americanhindi]

Will A Lack of Active Battery Thermal Management Harm Sales Of The 2018 Nissan LEAF? Yes! Those who have purchased previous generation Nissan LEAFs (2011-2016) and owned it for enough time to notice how the battery's capacity reduces, will probably not buy another LEAF, especially if it doesn't have Thermal Management.