Wing Chun Knives - Choppers or Stabbers? | Kung fu Genius Episode 14

Choppers or stabbers? Wing Chun (Wing Tsun, Ving Tsun, etc.) practitioners the world over debate the type of knife used in the system's Baat Jaam Dou techniques. Is there a right answer?
Ben Judkins article on the history of the knives: www.thesnowtiger.com/2015/09/a...
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[@colinyoung2021]

A HUGE shout out and thanks to Sifu Alex Richter. Your Kung Fu Genius Channel is full of great information and and very entertaining! On a more specific note to this video. I train in a different lineage and have been training Ving Tsun for just over 16 years. Sometimes you can hear things many times in your training and it just doesn't make sense to you. Then one day someone says something simple and short and BAM it clicks for you. This happened for me while watching this video, so THANKS AGAIN!!! It just goes to prove, once again, that just because someone is not your Sifu or even in your lineage, it doesn't mean there isn't always something to learn. Please keep the videos and info coming!! ps. I am not on one team or another. I have stabbers, choppers and hybrids. Heavy, Light, Steel, Aluminum and even Plastic. Train with them all, they all have something they can teach you.

[@TheKungFuGenius]

Colin Young thank you! That means a lot to me.

[@peterdekker3786]

As for weight, the "stabbing" variety that is commonly found among antiques is not lighter... it's heavier than the broader variety. It is easy to get an impression of lightness from profile only, but that's only half the story; They tend to be considerably thicker and heavier than the antique cutters by 2-300 grams per piece. Some of them weigh over a kilo each. This variety was common among professional southern soldiers and militia.

[@TheKungFuGenius]

Thanks for commenting!

[@Webhead7701]

Buick Yip design feels the best to me.

[@fengbao]

The antique wu dip dou shown at 3:19 are nice, we actually own the one‘s shown there! Peter Dekker made great pictures of them! Really love them! :D They‘re a great example for 1850 pearl river delta wu dip dou and for the variety of different shapes and sizes throughout the history. As in the article from ben judkins written it‘s said that there may be an influence from the british naval cutlass, which is a really interesting historical point. greetings from vienna!

[@TheKungFuGenius]

FENGBAO Kung Fu thankfully the more designs were updated, as a lot of these older ones are simply not optimized for what the Wing Chun practitioners use them for now. The older designs are a better gang weapon, less optimized to handle fighting larger weapons.

[@fengbao]

The Kung Fu Genius Yeah, totally! It‘s really great to see all the different sizes and forms side by side. I really love the one‘s from 1820 even when they look totally different but they‘re one of the oldest antiques that we know today that have the caracteristics of two knives worn in one single scabbard. Besides the history of wing chun it is just a great marker of a really inconventional idea for these days. As the wu dip dou from 1820-1920 were the most popular weapons for armed militia it is interesting how the wing chun baat zam dou evolved in this social environment somehow. It is great to see how different they got from day one. But I can just look at them from a historical perspective, not from the perspective of a wing chun practioner. But Peter Judkins is more educated on the historical topic, his essays are really great!

[@Scorch1028]

I look at Wing Chun butterfly swords primarily as slicers and slashers.

[@TheKungFuGenius]

Thanks for commenting! Did you watch the part where I discuss that in WC (WT/VT et al) we don't actually call them "butterfly swords"? Just curious!

[@markwong4266]

In our Choy Li Fut system we have several forms which has chopping and stabbing techniques...it should be yin and Yang balance in all knife sets...natural reaction to stab with knives. I like both principles and that the whole knife is a weapon too!!!

[@TheKungFuGenius]

Mark Wong thank you for this!

[@briandesir5005]

Nice point on using both types. The stabbing method is more offensive in approach chopping is good on the disarm and defensive. Nice video bro

[@TheKungFuGenius]

Thanks!

[@q.l.3881]

In ancient Chinese, BAAT also means separation in two different directions

[@TheKungFuGenius]

Absolutely! However, the knife techniques of Wing Chun are hardly ancient nor are they reflective of “two direction” constructs typically found in arts like 八卦掌.

[@sichiu]

I’m guessing the 1 dislike so far is from someone on Team Bludgeon

[@TheKungFuGenius]

sichiu believe it or not, that one dislike comes from a troll who was traumatized by one of the worst Wing Tsun instructors ever and now has an axe to grind. But yeah, go team bludgeon!

[@SifuKuttel]

You dropped so much truth there!!!! More people need to hear this, especially the kung fu bros 😅😅😅

[@TheKungFuGenius]

Sifu Kuttel - Kung Fu - Tai Chi my knives weigh 30lbs each bro, with a guard that holds infinity stones.

[@elvislourdes9291]

Another excellent episode, sifu Alex!! Hard to pick a favorite as I love all of them. Look forward to many more informative episodes. Thank you.

[@TheKungFuGenius]

Elvis lourdes thank you!

[@ItsTopher9000]

I have a set of both. Variety is the spice of life!

[@TheKungFuGenius]

Topher naughty!

[@ItsTopher9000]

The Kung Fu Genius just don’t forget the tennis grips.

[@JKDVIPER]

From my training. We use them the same as the hands. TAN BONG all of it.

[@jamesb.4289]

I just recently subscribed. Right now I'm kind of jumping around watching different episodes, but really great information!

[@TheKungFuGenius]

Thank you! I’ve been busy with my Online Academy in the last few months, which is why there are no new videos, however I will be furnishing new content shortly.

[@SicilianLeungJohn]

Hi Alex-personal preference-stab-straightest-shortest line but the sword must fit the form-slash /chop form needs a slash/chop knife and promote slash /chop tactics

[@TheKungFuGenius]

DrLeungJohn agreed!

[@PrinceNamor777]

One day I’ll pick one but for now I don’t have a preference... But when it’s time I would love to learn both chopping and stabbing...😳😂🙂

[@bongkem2723]

I think it's a "cutter"/"slitter" not stabbing nor chopping ;)) they are light and easy to maneuver not heavy as a chopping but not used for stabbing neither due to the broad surface and not pointy !!! they are however easy to cut lightly at vital points with wingchung circular motion ;) btw do you know where i can get the knifes at 6:03 ?

[@BaiLong45]

Awesome information here sifu! I liked that you referenced the Triad pic from NYC. Saw it in the Tong Wars book that recently came out. I was somewhat disappointed that there weren’t any choppers featured, but I like how you explained the stabbers in that pic. Again great info sifu!

[@TheKungFuGenius]

I did a deeper dive on this in a theory class for my online academy a few months ago. It's a fascinating topic.

[@alexzx6r857]

Sifu Alex, I was surprised to hear you debunk the commonly used term of ‘Butterfly Knives’ as I’m sure like many other people, this is what I have come to know them as. Do you know why this is such a common term used nowadays? Where did it start and why is it incorrect to use that terminology? Your knowledge, perspective and your history of learning is very impressive, at least to me. If I’m ever lucky enough to be in a position to travel to America, I would love to visit your school in New York and partake in a lesson or two, or three. Keep the videos coming dude 👍

[@TheKungFuGenius]

Thank you Alex. I think the reason for the confusion is pretty straight forward, and mostly our (meaning WT/WC/VT peeps) fault. Our art is not even close to being the first to use knives in this or a similar style. Before it was part of WT/WC/VT etc., knives of this genre were called Butterfly Swords (wu dip dou in Cantonese). When it was adopted and/or developed in the WT/WC/VT system, the design was changed slightly to fit our needs as we changed the nature of the techniques to be in line with WT/WC/VT concepts. In the 1972 New Martial Hero interview with Grandmaster Yip Man he mentioned that the knives are derived from the fist-fighting sets. So it would seem a matter of us taking these knives, changing the techniques, changing the design, and ultimately changing the name. On a perhaps more "political" side note, it is common knowledge that Grandmaster Yip Man did not teach the knife, pole, or complete wooden dummy to all of his students. It's also clear that many of his students who went on to have teaching careers may have borrowed knife, pole, and dummy ideas from other systems and therefore cross-polinated terminology that is not used in our art. For example "knife flipping" which is not part of the WT/WC/VT set, or using the Hung Kuen reverse pole grip which is also not how Grandmaster Yip Man did it. So I have the feeling that less honest actors are partially to blame as are the general public which doesn't know the difference. Of course this is all 100% my speculation and should not be taken as anything more than that. You are more than welcome to come train with us in NYC when you are ready!

[@alexzx6r857]

The Kung Fu Genius Thank you for a swift response. Even if it is your speculation, it’s still informed. Thanks you

[@stevemilliet2740]

My preference is a tapered chopper, Sum Nung/YKS style. The tip tapers and is also sharpened on the tip spine, to allow for retrieving slashes/cuts, when returning the blad after an attack. I agree with you and I use both myself. And I agree that techniques must adapt to the design and blade geometry.

[@TheKungFuGenius]

Thank you for sharing.

[@sifukiinnis1432]

Very interesting! Of course our Baat Jam Do form is dramatically different from what GM Yip Man taught but does reflect how we apply 詠春. I own three sets of knives. Two choppers and one triangle designed stabber. I prefer the stabber as I find them faster to move with, and more comfortable when doing rotations at the wrist.

[@TheKungFuGenius]

Makes sense!

[@Raysamui]

I heard that the knives used to only have a sharp edge maybe 3 inches from the tip for attacking and the rest was dull used for defending. So as not to damage when clashing with other weapons. Do you know if this was true? cheers

[@TheKungFuGenius]

Raysamui there are many designs that follow something like what you wrote - the lower portion of the blade is dull so as to not get stuck when sliding down wooden weapons with the part closer to the tip being sharp. Of course there are so many different designs, it’s nearly impossible to say any one design was the standard one.

[@briandesir5005]

Bart Chum Do eight cutting knife eight cuts eight angles. Knowledge from the late IP Ching son of Ip Man.

[@TheKungFuGenius]

Thanks for the info.

[@devinharper4791]

Fun video. Thanks. For future ideas I would love to hear a video or a podcast on your time training in the castle in Germany. I would also enjoy hearing your thoughts about the WT weapons training contrasted to the Filipino martial arts (or insert other martial art though I mentioned this as it was taught together in the ewto)

[@TheKungFuGenius]

Thanks for the idea! I'm trying to limit my topics to WT/WC/VT history and themes and not make the topics "about me" so much. I think it would be a bit of a snoozefest to talk about the Castle times to an audience who doesn't know the players involved. It's a common misconception that WT and Escrima were taught "together", there was always a Church and State division between the two. I only learned enough Escrima to have basic competency with a stick for self-defense, I never really got too into it. There are plenty of other people far more qualified than myself to make those comparisons.

[@Priestbokmei1]

Really enjoyed your video! I lean more toward cleaving/chopping. I don’t use the “butterfly” knives, but rather two Tramontina 18 inch blade short machetes. I don’t like flipping knives so the short machetes are perfect for me. Have you ever worked with two short machetes?

[@TheKungFuGenius]

Thanks for commenting!

[@goodvibeman]

Thanks a lot for this...again! Awesome!

[@TheKungFuGenius]

Tropland Studio thank you!

[@thomashenderson9004]

I perfer chopping & slashing also, I believe it's best to versatile in techniques & more creative with the handling of weapons. I have pair of knives & practice the bil jee form with them. Furthermore, I don't want to refer them as butterflies knives since I'm property educated now

[@TheKungFuGenius]

Glad you learned something!

[@martin_dlugi]

Finally some confused people again, love it! I would be interested in the Biu Tze (hope it`s correctly written, stab or chop me if not) and why it`s somehow different from the rest of the non-weapon forms.

[@TheKungFuGenius]

Martin Dlugi I thought of you for that opener again! I’ll send you a PM on your Biu Tze question.

[@martin_dlugi]

@@TheKungFuGenius Lol thanks for that honor

[@wingtsunnavan9630]

Hi Sifu Alex, I’ve heard you mention before that in Yip Man lineage we do not flip the knives. How then do we reverse them to cover the elbow? I’ve not done the form yet so this is curiosity, not fight picking.

[@TheKungFuGenius]

Baau Jaang Dou means the knife goes to your elbow, and this means the length of the knife. It refers to the length of the blade, not a technique! Sorry that wasn't clear.

[@wingtsunnavan9630]

The Kung Fu Genius Nothing to apologise for and that makes perfect sense, thanks. Great video, keep them coming.

[@gandalf7354]

in Ip chuns form the knife is flipped. seems like yip man passed down various different techniques section by section to senior students. among his student they received a variety, some which flip the knives others that dont. ive noticed that although the techniques can vary there is an overall stab/chop and forward/backward footwork they all share in common. From what i have heard and read yip man taught with a traditional mentality. meaning the students got what he thought they would need rather than everyone across the board the same. furthermore he would teach some as they would pay for it, section by section. he was afterall making a living. many of his students would have also enevitibly added their own flavor to the form and modified the techniques to varying degrees. point being forms that flip and ones that dont are all yip man style forms. also, there are many other southern styles that flip them. styles which were well known and had involvement in gangs and militias. as far as im concerned the argument 'flip or dont flip' is a silly one. the sequences are less important than the skill. if it can be applied by a skilled practitioner than its good 👍.

[@wolf3001]

@@gandalf7354 I have always suspected that people borrowed methods from other systems or came up with their own ideas. I was watching a White Crane knife form and most of it was done in a reversed grip. It always made more sense to me that Wing Chun wouldn't flip the knives because it's a bit risky you may drop them and it seems a bit of a waste of time. I still enjoy flipping them about doing different things however. I would say that based on Wing Chun philosophy flipping them isn't advised. It's a cool trick I guess but im not sure it would ever be any more useful than any other technique.

[@gandalf7354]

@@wolf3001 there is room for personal preference. some people find it useful at a closer range, others dont. risk is an interesting topic. is it still risky if you are good at it? its like saying its risky to do a bong sau incase someone takes advantage of your flared elbow, is ot risky to attack first? wait for an opponents attack? if you have trained to the point where it isnt a problem eg there and gone in a flash is it still risky? depends on circumstance, personal preference, who you are faced with, your strengths, your weakness'. many variables which make ot a kind of silly argument. seems like you have found your prefered way which is not to flip them. sounds good to me even though i do flip them on occassion. the problem with treating wing chuns proverbs snd principles as gospel is they hsve been interpreted so many different ways. whats direct to one lineage isnt to another etc. mutual understanding and fascination/interest serves us all better than the constant criticism :) afterall its all extra knowledge and no one forcing anyone to do it any which way your point about enjoying to flup them is valid too. there is more to these weapon forms than just application. most of us lractice out of enjoyment rather than desperate need. and what the dexterity and strength does for your empty handed techniques as opposed to dorect application witht he knives is worth study in itself ps merry christmas :)

[@darkestdragon]

Chinese clan militias in the 1800s used swords similar in design. My guesses, seeing that wing chun came from similar roots of anti-qing rebel militias they would have weapons which were already available. i.e. the same weapons as the local militias.

[@TheKungFuGenius]

Seems to be a reasonable assertion.

[@tetaniwha7527]

Have you thought about mixing 1 chopper and 1 stabber combining techniques from both into 1

[@TheKungFuGenius]

Yes, those are called hybrids and they are awesome!

[@tetaniwha7527]

Are hybrids made as chopper/stabber coz I was meaning use a chopper in 1 hand and a stabber in the other and then blending techniques.

[@konglee7284]

I like the karambit knifes... what do you think about it? Both side must be sharpen. In my opinion,. You can cut the person on the inside and outside blade... Most only have the inside blade sharpen.

[@TheKungFuGenius]

I think they are cool, my friend Marrese Crump is an expert at them. But this is out of my field.

[@adolfogonzalez1305]

Great video. I would be interested to know if the choppers or stabbers are made in a special way like a Samurai sword? And where does one order a pair of real ones and practice ones?

[@TheKungFuGenius]

Adolfo Gonzalez Chinese weapons are unfortunately not made with the same care as Japanese weapons.

[@jedi77palmer]

@@TheKungFuGenius I recommend you learn about little bit more about how swords are made before saying a very generalised comment like this.

[@TheKungFuGenius]

WingChun I recommend you stop being anonymous if you want people to care. The quality of Chinese weapons is notoriously lower than the Japanese... and I say this as a fan of Chinese weaponry.

[@jedi77palmer]

@@TheKungFuGenius some modern weapons yes. But if you look at just Baat Jaam Do they are very short and wide compared to say a samurai sword and therefore do not need to be have the same metal characteristics as a much longer and thinner blade. I also train in HEMA so I am a bit knowledgeable in different blade construction, requirements and application.

[@TheKungFuGenius]

WingChun eagerly awaiting your video response

[@Moonelf82]

Nice video! Sorry for my bad english,. I am a fan of dude of kung fu. Have you ever hear about people praticing other weapons in wing chun. In place of long pole and knives ? I know a school in tawain ( claiming a direct chan wah shum lineage... which could be discussed) published a book with other weapons like gim. But when i look at it, it looks more like tai chi. Keep up the good work sifu!

[@TheKungFuGenius]

Au bord de l'eau Wing Chun historically only has two weapons, but people are free to practice whatever they want!

[@Moonelf82]

The Kung Fu Genius actually i remember reading (in complete wing chun by robert wu if my memory doesn't fail me) rhat Pan Nam wing chun used to have flying dart...

[@TheKungFuGenius]

Au bord de l'eau yes, but Pang Nam mixed lots of things from other styles in his Wing Chun. This doesn’t make additional forms, weapons, etc necessary. Wing Chun people should look towards function and stop trying to collect mysterious “stuff”.

[@Moonelf82]

The Kung Fu Genius well indisagree on one thing here. If you add form for a mysterious thing to make a marketing thing one invent something it is a thing you're right. But if you do it based on the principles of the art and to explore it is another thing. I think that you understand wing chun principle, you cAn improvise weapons. But you know, only my opinion. Worth no much looooool! And sorry again for bad english.

[@TheKungFuGenius]

Au bord de l'eau I’ll give three guesses why he added those things...

[@johnnytrejo911]

Was it Big Sean calling it Bart-Chom-Do? 🤣 he’s great , I’ll give it to him 👍🏼 I like the stabbers

[@allopez8563]

Why not both?

[@TheKungFuGenius]

That’s deep bro

[@allopez8563]

@@TheKungFuGenius butterfly knives with bowie like blades.

[@technocore1591]

Butter knife!!! Slathering butter on my English muffins FTW!!!!

[@TheKungFuGenius]

D’oh!

[@technocore1591]

The Kung Fu Genius seriously though great vids. Sane dialogue is nice.

[@TheKungFuGenius]

Techno Core thank you! Sane is the new extraordinary.

[@inspirethroughactionscalis6742]

Team Chopper 💪, excellent video very informative.

[@TheKungFuGenius]

Choppers are awesome!

[@inspirethroughactionscalis6742]

The Kung Fu Genius tbh I’ve never trained with stabbers, which I should! . I prefer choppers design and feel. I think I’ll actually invest in a set of stabbers to give myself more of a balance.

[@TheKungFuGenius]

Inspire Through Actions Calisthenics let me know what you think!

[@jedi77palmer]

Oh dear leung ting

[@TheKungFuGenius]

WingChun hahaha imagine having an anonymous KZbin account and writing a comment like this

[@jedi77palmer]

@@TheKungFuGenius would it seriously make any difference if you knew my actual name? As I don't think that would suddenly illuminate you as to who I am

[@TheKungFuGenius]

WingChun no, it’s just that everyone is afraid to show who they are or really tell what their qualifications are, but feel perfectly free to criticize anyone who actually puts something out there. I can’t imagine being the least bit upset about what an anonymous troll has to say, but I would be really interested if you put up a video with well-thought-out counter points. If you have evidence that suggests that I am wrong I, I would be more than delighted. But a couple snide comments from an anonymous account on a KZbin channel doesn’t make you seem very genuine. Release your perfectly well reasoned counterpoint video or write an article for WC illustrated. I am more than excited to see it or read it.

[@jedi77palmer]

@@TheKungFuGenius bit thin skinned mate, you realise this is KZbin right. Or maybe you are overly defensive for a reason.

[@TheKungFuGenius]

WingChun you can google my address, I’ll be waiting for a reasonable face to face conversation on this topic. Until then, you’re an anonymous troll on KZbin. The definition of the modern day coward.

[@krumpliii]

It's clearly depend on body type. If you are a chonker, the chopper is for you. End of argument.

[@TheKungFuGenius]

Lee Krump define “chonker”, I don’t speak Krump.

[@thedarwinist672]

Chop what's in your way, stab the centerline. Thats what I assume.

[@TheKungFuGenius]

The knife techniques are a bit more nuanced than that. Most Yip Man (Ip Man) based knife techniques actually don't stab on the "centerline" as the wrist is compromised in such a centered position with a blade. Most Yip Man-based knife techniques use the "stabbing knife" (chi dou) on the yin line (yam sin) aka the "Suspender's Line".

[@thedarwinist672]

@@TheKungFuGenius I've never heard of the suspenders line. Is that like where suspenders go?

[@TheKungFuGenius]

@@thedarwinist672 exactly! I call it the suspender's line because no one know "yam sin" lol

[@thedarwinist672]

@@TheKungFuGenius any good videos you recommend that explain the nuances between wc sword and unarmed? I always figured it was about the same movements, except "chasing hands" with a blade would actually pay off.

[@TheKungFuGenius]

@@thedarwinist672 unfortunately I have not come across too much knife stuff on KZbin that explains the actual use in any measurable detail or nuance. There are lots of people out there showing forms “and stuff“, but no deep dives into these things. This may have something to do with the fact that the people who actually learn these things in detail are less likely to just give it out openly, yet the people who don’t really know will talk about it all over the place! Sometimes using Chinese characters as search terms will yield some better videos, but then you might need to understand some Chinese to understand what is being said.