Was Madonna RIGHTLY accused of using auto-tune LIVE? Let’s find out!

[@Rick_Hoppe]

Fil, wow! This kind of “big venue” problem would NEVER have occurred to me. You’re the only channel who could do this kind of analysis. Few, if any, music KZbinrs would have your kind of technical/music theory knowledge, PLUS real world performance experience to see what Madonna was dealing with. You are constantly blowing my mind! Every video of yours makes me even more proud to be a Patreon supporter.

[@wingsofpegasus]

Thanks for the kind words!

[@freespiritwithnature4384]

Pretty cool though right? ❤️

[@texasstardust6010]

.... I agree, great comment. Best one I've read here on this particular video. I am not even a big fan of hers, ( sans a few songs) but yes, it must have been something to deal with, and she was 61 at this time. ( I'm in my late 60's, I get it , lol,) Yes, proud to be a Patreon Supporter as well !

[@Music-Is-Real-Love]

100%.

[@stillhuntre55]

'This is so fascinating! I'm loving these auto-tune episodes, I'm learning so much. I love that you don't just say "this person can't sing" , you give us the context of real people in real situations that might have a bad day, be sick, can't hear themselves in a large venue, or recorded something in good faith only to have it altered after the fact. Thank you so much for these!

[@tracyzimmerman7912]

I love them as well

[@silvialittlewolf]

You expressed exactly what I was trying to find the right words for!

[@paulcooper474]

Exactly my thoughts. I stumbled across this video.as you do🤷‍♂️. His explanation is very informative and actually points out the youtubers and tiktokers who do videos on things like this just to elevate their own sad ego or to get more like/shares. When really they've no idea what they're talking about. 🤔. I've now subscribed to his channel. 👍

[@NightwishArena]

Then add a long tour with having 3-6 gigs per week.

[@juliebless7119]

This has been so eye opening! I have always been a huge critic of Madonna as her livee performances leave a lot to be desired for me, personally. But, given that she is a huge, international star and regularly plays at gigantic venues, now I get it. I'll never criticize her again! I love Fil's videos.

[@AlleyandGrey]

She's been doing this for nearly 40 years. She 63 & she's still working as hard as she did in the 80s. I've got to respect her for that. Most performers today are all auto tuned or they lipsync. Great video.

[@raven_ous2585]

Respect ??!!. Do your research

[@AlexeBriand2002]

@@raven_ous2585 yes, respect. she’s a fucking living legend. one of the last living legends from the 80s, along with Phil Collins, ABBA and Janet Jackson

[@AlleyandGrey]

@@raven_ous2585 WTF do you mean Respect? Do my research? I'm her age. I've been listening to her from day one. I'm still buying her music. I do respect her. Don't be so disrespectful.

[@raven_ous2585]

@@AlleyandGrey Birds of a feather comes to mind 🤣🤣🤪🤪

[@1SeanBond]

That was a awesome view! Appreciate your efforts and quality content you keep producing! I have never seen anything as good or as amazing as your Channel Fil, always a enjoyable time! Ty friend. Cheers!

[@wingsofpegasus]

Thanks!

[@freespiritwithnature4384]

As someone who doesn’t listen to a lot of her music , at the end of the day vocally , she’s being real. I respect that immensely. We’re all human and we all have good days and the not so great days . Even when you put a finger in one ear , and you sing along with music ,it sounds different . Your right we really don’t get to hear her true vocals with everything else mixed in along with it . That must be hard professionally, not hearing what you may have heard earlier or in a different venue . Yes I think Madonna should give you some personal feedback. It would certainly help people understand, and perhaps even make new fans ,who don’t know her music. ❤️ Great Analysis.

[@raven_ous2585]

Free Spirit With Nature ??!! Really. So you respected her immensely when , along with one of her husbands, she issued her guests with rifles, so they could kill animals on their estate. Oh ok

[@freespiritwithnature4384]

@@raven_ous2585 To be honest, I don’t know anything about her personal life at all ,nor do I read Magazines / gossip. I was only referring to the vocals that I heard Fil analyzing. I can’t condone anyone’s lifestyle if I don’t know anything about it ., nor is it any of my business. I love animals and we’re talking about music here , not rifles or killing . 🙂

[@_whatsername1911]

I feel like anyone who judged her performance as "bad" would eat their words if they heard how horrible some of the newer artists sound without auto tune, even under good circumstances.

[@stevecampbell9670]

Not me. I think they sound terrible WITH the auto-tune.

[@raven_ous2585]

I've seen many artists live , and they have been brilliant. She, however isn't one of them.

[@rickricardo5326]

@@raven_ous2585 I guess you never saw Madonna live? You would be be astounded by how good her voice is. And yes, I saw her 5 times live in Holland AND I am critical.

[@pallafox]

​@@raven_ous2585typical critic who's never seen madonna live

[@raven_ous2585]

@@rickricardo5326 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@Anonymouseys]

Love this channel. I'm a massive music lover but not a musician so it's all a dark art to me. This insight truly is fascinating. Newly subbed and watching through these videos one after another. Awesome content, thanks man.

[@judecash6918]

Good evening Fil&everyone,hope everyone is doing well.just wanted 2 say thank u 4 ur live stream last nite,I luv how friendly&welcoming ur fans r.im having a gr8 50th birthday.now 2 watch the video💝💝😻😻xxxxx

[@sunshineparadiso3984]

You’re a musical master, my friend. I’m so super impressed right now, I’m totally binging your channel right now.

[@wingsofpegasus]

Thanks!

[@andrewelliott4436]

Fascinating. Absolutely fascinating. For what it's worth: In "olden days" Film/TV sound recording, the operator (using a Nagra with 1/4" tape) is hearing the recording - which is coming back from the machine's playback head, and which is fractionally behind the live sound. It is almost impossible to speak under those conditions - when you're hearing your own voice coming at you with a delay. (If it's possible, you can flick the monitor toggle switch onto "direct" momentarily - but it isn't always possible. And singing under such conditions? It would be completely impossible.

[@konstantia1607]

Fil, you're a marvel at jam-packing these with one fascinating point after another. For me, I can live without the spectacle---give me the best possible conditions for the musician. A beautiful performance is what's really thrilling.

[@stevecampbell9670]

Roy Orbison used to just come out by himself, sit on a stool with his guitar and do his songs. And the audience would be mesmerized. Sometimes less really is more.

[@konstantia1607]

@@stevecampbell9670 👍 Exactly. There's less getting in the way between artist and audience.

[@cindypowers4993]

@@stevecampbell9670 Yes, and how refreshing that is. Talent is talent, either you have it or you don't. Peroid. No embellishments please.

[@cindypowers4993]

Hello Konstantia ✌️ Great comment.

[@konstantia1607]

@@cindypowers4993 Hi Cindy! Thanks and ditto! 👍 Just imagine finally being in the audience to hear someone you've always loved and the whole thing is cluttered up with embellishment. You might leave feeling that his recordings touched your heart but hearing him in person left you cold. That's got to be wrong.

[@loreleikring5188]

Thank you for letting me know that Donna Godchaux and I are not the only singers who've had trouble hearing themselves on a stage. For me, the problem has been worst with others too close to my ears singing the same notes I'm singing, as when my height put me in a middle row of the soprano section in the high school chorus. I wished I had a pair of invisible ear plugs to make my own voice the one I could hear most clearly, without making the girls next to me feel as if they should shut up. Thanks also for caring enough to debunk the usual misogynistic rot. I'm pushing sixty but thinking about showing my face in public again anyway, so it's nice to be reminded that not every young man in the world can be expected to attack me for opening my mouth.

[@tunesarms2586]

Another great breakdown!. I'll always favor a live performance 👍🏻

[@renees766]

I appreciate the fact that you don't go in for the kill on these artists and you do your best to describe the issues they faced while trying to perform... brings everything into perspective. I really just wonder why, with all the technical abilities the industry has, why hasn't anyone figured out a way for singers n players to hear themselves more reliably in a large venue?

[@wingsofpegasus]

You can route the in ears straight into your ear first which is the most reliable way and how I prefer to do it. But bigger artists tend to rely on their sound guys which I think is risky!

[@kenjude1]

@@wingsofpegasus interesting. I go to a folk festival in Dorset every year. One of the things I like about a festival is that you get to see the sound checking process which you don’t see at indoor gigs. All through the day you see all the acts doing their own sound checks. Then just occasionally a bigger headlining act where the singer leaves it to their crew. I always thought that seemed risky.

[@carr0760]

Sometimes things just change between sound check and the performance. The addition of a screaming audience has an impact. Maybe the drummer starts playing louder than they did before. Maybe someone tweaked something out the soundboard (either by accident or intentionally)..things happen. I've done performances where everything was great during sound check but then in the performance it felt like all of my levels were different. I've also had my in ears just totally crap out in the middle of a song. Signal interference or something. Even when everything is set up exactly right, things can still go wrong.

[@servicedogkyzanna1761]

Fil, I have learned so much with these videos, I actually prefer natural voices. As soon as you played Madonna's auto-tuned voice, i hated it. I can only imagine the panic if you can't hear you in-ears, and you know you have to make a fast decision. I think of the Milli-Vanilli, where one stayed and one ran, lol- great reaction!!!

[@Rangefindergeneral]

Well that makes total sense, I did wonder what happened.

[@elgabriel2983]

Thank you for this insightful and respectful reaction and for diving into this and making it clear what really happened. I was there and heard the organization was hell. I had contact with one of her dancers to meet, but he couldn't because they were rehearsing day and night with Madonna. He said that there were difficulties with the organization. Then I saw it live and you could hear and see that she had technical problems, but it didn't sound as bad as on TV. Also the registration and direction was bad, the camera didn't move or was too late, where it should, at some points. Which made it all look even worse than it was. People always like to bash her all the time, which is unfair, even her 'fans' did that. But Madonna was brave enough to not mime and just sing live, no matter what.

[@marknovak6498]

I am glad she had the courage not to use autotune. I wonder it the monitors in her ears had a technical issue after she started and soldiered on through.

[@hakeemahmadjamal7403]

Great reaction Phil!

[@JohnLnyc]

From Wiki. The rules. Live music[edit] Live music has been an integral part of the contest since its first edition. The main vocals of the competing songs must be sung live on stage, however other rules on pre-recorded musical accompaniment have changed over time.[23] The orchestra was a prominent feature of the contest from 1956 to 1998. Pre-recorded backing tracks were first allowed in the contest in 1973, but under this rule the only instruments which could be pre-recorded had to also be seen being "performed" on stage; in 1997, this rule was changed to allow all instrumental music to be pre-recorded, however the host country was still required to provide an orchestra.[24] In 1999, the rules were changed again, making the orchestra an optional requirement; the host broadcaster of the 1999 contest, Israel's IBA, subsequently decided not to provide an orchestra as a cost saving measure, meaning that all entries would use a backing track for the first time in the contest's history.[16][25][26] The present-day rules of the contest now specify that all instrumental music should be pre-recorded, with no live instrumentation allowed, making the return of the orchestra for competing acts impossible under the current rules.[4][27] Before 2020, all vocals were required to be performed live, with no natural voices of any kind or vocal imitations allowed on backing tracks.[4] The Croatian entry at the 1999 contest was sanctioned after the contest for including synthesised male vocals in defiance of this rule, with Croatia subsequently penalised through the docking of their score at that year's contest by 33% for the purposes of calculating their five-year points average for use in determining which countries would be relegated in future contests.[16][25][26] Ahead of the 2021 contest, in an effort to make the contest more flexible to change following the cancellation of the 2020 event and to facilitate modernisation, the organisers' announced that recorded backing vocals would be allowed on a trial basis and as an optional addition. An example of this is Iceland's 2021 entry "10 Years", which used a choir in the bridge of the song. Delegations are still free to provide live backing vocals if they prefer, and all lead vocals performing the melody of the song, including by the lead vocalist(s) and any supporting vocalists, must still be performed live.[23]

[@JamesParus]

This is probably the reason why some singers want the mix only to another ear (studio)

[@blindazabat9527]

I was told that Cher used autotune on "Believe". Is this true? I can't believe it....

[@melodiejones7100]

The part where her voice was deliberately distorted for effect was done with auto-tune. I don't think the rest of the song was auto-tuned due to pitch, but I don't know that for certain.

[@okie-kan9240]

I totally get what you are saying. I have personally done this before. I am not a singer, but just singing along, and I think, " crap, that was bad".

[@sdavis5001]

Fil …… you rock. 💖 Wait wait wait lol……you play guitar AND you SING BRILLIANTLY!!! You are so talented yourself!!!!! And SUCH a professional. Keep them coming!!

[@wingsofpegasus]

Haha thanks!

[@Phil1982]

Really interesting and does make me perhaps have more sympathy for singers whom I have heard live and appear out of tune. On a very small scale I have in fact experienced this when playing a jam night in a pub. I could not hear my own voice because of the drums behind me and ended up losing it completely 😬

[@georgehumphrey3026]

Your explanation reminds me of Mariah Carey new years fiasco couple years ago. I ve seen Cyndi Lauper probably 10 times and never have seen her not be able to find her note, or vocals. Also Annie Lennox and Patti LaBelle seem to always be close to perfect sounding vocals.

[@mightyV444]

Many years ago, when I was playing a gig with a 3-piece band with me as the drummer, in-ear monitoring wasn't a thing yet, and the PA hire company had provided only *two* monitor wedges, which were placed before the other two guys, at the edge of the stage, so I could hear my own backing vocals only from those; And when watching the video recording later, I was shocked at my vocals being completely flat in one particular song and the whole way through it, too! And despite having heard myself sing in tune at the gig!! *And* despite having perfect pitch!!! I *still* don't know how that could happen!? Doppler Effect, maybe?! But Madonna surely *was* using in-ear monitors, right? Maybe she's going deaf?? I hope not! 😧

[@Siansonea]

I think miming is often fine, I would prefer that to Autotune. Ideally there would be a live, unaltered vocal, but if I have to choose between miming and Autotune, I will choose miming every time. All of the legendary bands of the 60s, 70s and 80s routinely mimed for TV appearances, it was expected and understood that if you want a polished sound under those conditions, you have to mime.

[@quetzal4042]

15:50 Should be "if that WERE the case", subjunctive, since it definitely was not the case.

[@wingsofpegasus]

Correct! But suprisingly here 'was' is taking the place of 'were' at an alarming rate!

[@_whatsername1911]

I'd rather hear anyone perform with imperfections than with auto tune. Live should mean live. I love the things that make it special to only that moment in time. Also, can we take a minute to appreciate that Ol' Blue Eyes performed like a pro even when he basically lost his hearing. Talk about no frame of reference.

[@DoggieFosters]

@MOBIEUS MOVIES Except autotune is almost never used deftly or artistically. I'm extremely sensitive to tones, maybe because I've always had poor eyesight, and autotune as it is used predominantly is like taking a 3 dimensional sculpture and rendering it in 2 dimensions. It honestly obliterates all texture to my ears. It _feels_ startling and uncomfortable. Does it not feel ...squashed and lifeless when you hear it applied?

[@merelmerula9313]

You didn't hear her live on Eurovision :p

[@eduardochavacano]

you are not artist!

[@AlexeBriand2002]

the reason why she uses autotune live is to recreate the studio sound… and she also genuinely likes how her voice sounds with autotune since she’s been using it as a vocal effect since her 2000 album Music

[@jeframp3805]

Debbie harry did a performance in the 00s on the today show where she cannot hear herslef and she looks cross and that made her a bit flat she did keep in tune ish but it wasn't perfect. Whitney was the same in 2008 in kazakstan where her monitor boxes were not working well and there was feedback etc. People kept saying she sang badly - she didn't really.

[@johnkelly748]

Regarding a singer hearing herself and her accompaniment: I remember seeing the great jazz singer Sarah Vaughan performing live on the Tonight Show decades ago. Somewhere in the first verse, she stopped and told the band she couldn’t hear either herself or the band. Adjustments were quickly made and she continued, flawlessly. It should be noted that the show allowed Ms. Vaughan to do this because she was one of the greatest voices of all time. Incidentally, Autotune and Sarah Vaughan would have been a nightmare. She had a four octave range from mild baritone to soprano and one of her trademarks was embellishing melodies by effortlessly sliding up or down an octave or more.

[@johnj2763]

John what a perfect comment. Sarah Vaughan was one of the greatest voices of any generation. I would suggest Fil analyze her live performance of 'Misty' from her concert on Swedish TV from Stockholm circa '64. I believe it to be one of the greatest vocal performances ever captured on film.

[@Rick_Hoppe]

John Kelly - Thanks for sharing that. Sarah Vaughan is a giant in the pantheon of Jazz vocalists. Our generation was lucky to be witness to these performers... and at that time, the Tonight Show was LIVE!

[@paulcooper474]

After your comment I decided to check out exactly what you were talking about.... WOW! Thankyou

[@jdjohnson7299]

One of the most complete, impressive vocalists period. Such a treasure.

[@johnkelly748]

@@johnj2763 I have seen that live performance before but you reminded me and I watched it again. Truly amazing. Thank you. May I recommend another KZbin video: that of Ella Fitzgerald accompanied by only one musician - Joe Pass. Again, many thanks.

[@debravirden7130]

Bravo Fil! Madonna "ain't my groove", but I feel sorry for her struggles here. And, If I go to a live concert, I PAY for a live concert, not lip sync or auto tune mechanics. Live voices can go off-key, so a huge venue really increasing the difficulty. I was a soprano in a huge college choir singing the Hallelujah Chorus at The Tarrant County Convention Center in the 1970s, and if your "neighbor" goes off key, it can mess you up!. If someone goes to live concerts, and off key happens.. get over it! Thank you for another superior analysis.

[@herluka]

'If you have performed in big venues...' Thank you for your faith, Fil, but I only ever perform for my neighbours from behind my flat walls, hoping they won't start a petition for my eviction... Great analysis as ever btw. Remember watching Madonna that year on Eurovision and I'm grateful somebody has explained to me what was happening there 🙂

[@AtlantaTerry]

Fil, you mentioned how a performer can panic when they can't hear their accompaniment. It happened to me in 1962. So I stopped the performance, said I could not hear the pianist, then we restarted when the issue was corrected. All these many years later and I can still remember that moment of panic.

[@teresalehtonen8499]

Great idea! However Eurovision song contest you can not stop anything even if you hear absolute zero lol

[@Autumn_Forest_]

I’m not really a Madonna fan, but I just figure everyone can have a bad day. But I agree with you in that she probably just can’t hear herself. She’s a great performer, and even though I’m not a huge fan, I’ve got to admire her talent and willingness to hang in there and do her best.

[@cacvpc]

Her music and voice has always sounded fake or edited. Maybe that's why she sang with such a weird tone for so long... she doesn't have the confidence to sing legitimately.

[@AlexeBriand2002]

@@cacvpc i mean her purpose in life was never to become a singer - she was a trained dancer but she simply couldn’t live off of dancing

[@SIZERRULE]

She's always said she is not the best singer but she is an amazing performer! Her live performances are amazing. Some vocals if hers as really amazing though. Watch "sooner or later" live at the Oscars for her best live vocal!

[@janklas7079]

Madonna is NOT a good singer. She's mostly marketing. And yes, that's a talent too.

[@forkless]

I don't mind the odd pitch correction on a studio album, but I do like my live experiences to be live, warts and all included so I can appreciate the musicianship. If I wanted an alternate and sterilized copy of the studio album I might as well have listened to the studio album from the comfort of my chair in the first place.

[@Lamster66]

This is so obviously a sound monitoring issue If you've ever watched " In bed with Madonna" then you will know she is the consummate professional.You'll see her giving Dancers a bollocking for being out of Step and Bollocking just about anyone and everyone else that isn't on the money with their performance. From Sound and light guys right down to the guy sweeping the floor. Madonna can sing and with a 40 year career does it pretty well too. It's funny how these so called "Professionals" on youtube are critical of a "poor performance". Perhaps it's to massage their own egos because their own career only extends to the critique of other successful artist, on youtube.

[@indycustommade3568]

I started to play the song and turned it up load and tried to sing. You were right I couldn't hear myself. The bad thing was everyone else could. My wife thought I was dying and ran out to my workshop. The look on her face was priceless. Thanks, Fil. I watched the video halfway through yours. I thought it was pretty good. The fact that it was such a dramatic performance I believe it kind of slips by. Great take on it.

[@stevenduvall2549]

I think you're right. Madonna doesn't sing off key live. Even before her vocal training, she had a strong voice and sang on key in her live shows.

[@larry4111]

Thank you for this insightful analysis. Madonna is to be commended. Between the options of lip syncing, live autotune, and walking out onstage singing purely live, she chose the riskiest and boldest option. It's hard to imagine what she must have been going through at the time (or, as you said, if she even knew how off she was at times) but the fact that she defied the critics and sang live (and I'm assuming she didn't have to) is something that comes with experience and confidence. P.S. I love those trills you put in. Would love to hear you do a cover of "Like a Prayer." It's such a great song.

[@cindypowers4993]

I love how you described Madonna's choice to sing live as the 'riskiest and boldest' option. Until Fil's analyses, I never knew there were so many other options. Good or bad, it's been a wake up call for me. And isn't it strange that we are surprised that Madonna chose to sing' live' at a' live' performance?!! I always thought that was the way it was supposed to be, having attended many concerts over the past 40 yrs. seeing the best of the best, it never occurred to me that I was seeing anything less than a pure, live performance.✌️

[@larry4111]

@@cindypowers4993 Sad, isn't it? There WAS a time when that was true. 40 years ago that was certainly the case. Lip syncing "live" shows became more common in the 90s with artists who danced while singing, like boy bands and certain solo artists whose performances relied on a stage production and wireless headsets as opposed to bands who played instruments and stood at mic stands. It was very controversial at times. As far as audiences go, some people got used to it. Others didn't mind in the first place. It was occasionally scandalous. But at some point people accepted it. Then live autotune began to be introduced more and more into concerts. That wasn't nearly as apparent as artists lip syncing so it slipped through and got to the point that most people probably had no idea how common it was. Being in the industry I have many friends who work on live concert production and I occasionally am allowed to sit near the audio consoles in the house or in the wings where much of the processing takes place and can see it in action. When used carefully, as Fil has done in some demonstrations, it really isn't noticeable to most people. It's very common today.

[@hoxtondean9855]

@@larry4111 I have been to her concerts five times throughout the years - when she sings live, she sings really well. We also love her for her stage artistry which involves heavy choreography - in which case, she'd sing to backing tracks etc. And that's fine by her fans. So yes, all is fine, really. Those criticising her tend to not be her fans anyway. I didn't pay to hear her sing 100% live only. I pay to see Madonna as a entertainer packaged with thought provoking choreography, lyrics and, entertaining banter and creativity in delivery of the artistic sensibilities. Go see Adele, rock bands, choirs, etc if people want 100% singing. Nothing wrong with that either. Just pick what type of concerts they want to see and what type of artists they want to follow. Nothing wrong with any choice. Just unfair to be telling artists how we want them to create and express their artistry.

[@larry4111]

@@hoxtondean9855 Were you responding to me? It's hard to tell on KZbin comments sometimes. Because I don't disagree at all. The topic is really autotune, not singing to tracks. Your entire comment essentially deals only with lip syncing and singing to tracks vs. singing "live," which isn't even the topic of discussion here. It's as if you were responding to a comment criticizing Madonna's lip syncing. If you were responding to me (it's hard to tell), perhaps you ought to read my comments again. I only mentioned lip syncing as a bridge to the discussion of autotune but nowhere did I criticize it. I certainly don't fault Madonna for doing so in performances. I have nothing but praise for her. That said, ironically, you said, "Go see Adele...if people want 100% singing" but Fil has already shown in his videos that Adele is often autotuned, as well. Unless you consider an autotuned live performance to be "100% live," then that isn't even accurate.

[@cindypowers4993]

@@larry4111 Larry, thank you for your response, it was quite thorough and so interesting! Terrific breakdown of the distinction between artists who sing and dance (boy bands,etc ), and live bands who stand at a mic. Sounds like you've had some super up front and close knowledge and experiences! Thanks for sharing! I learned a lot!!

[@jjswin]

I LOVE how respectful you are here - and instead of bashing an older woman (like others seem to enjoy) - you considered some more logical reasons as to why those notes were off. I would have thought she'd have muscle memory having sung that song live SO many times, but really it just shows how much singers need to be able to hear themselves and the effect on their vocal performance when they can't.

[@CFWhitman]

You might think that muscle memory would work, but most singers are used to adjusting to match the music rather than rigidly singing a song the same way every time. They are much more likely to use muscle memory when they are singing a cappella. Though even then, they can use a reference note in their in ear monitors to get started.

[@justinamenta7241]

Relax simp, what do think old woman are above being critized?

[@jjswin]

@@justinamenta7241not here to argue 😊 all love.

[@Music-Is-Real-Love]

💯.

[@bobleroe3859]

I'm an amateur folk singer. I've performed in coffee houses. Auto-tune would ruin folk singers! We can't sound too professional!

[@bobleroe3859]

@@riinak7212 Near Boston

[@bobleroe3859]

@@riinak7212 No, and sadly I never got to hear him, even though he's somewhat nearby.

[@JamesParus]

I bet someone has autotune program that can make it sound like folk. Snaps it out of tune

[@raven_ous2585]

You don't need it sweetie xx

[@carlathedestructor2454]

I just want to thank you for being honest and fair with all these is-it- autotune-or-not investigations. Madonna has had aggressively overcritical critics since 1984 and still has them to this day. People actually upset that a 63 year old woman posed in fishnets rather than a pants suit or whatever they think she should wear. 🙄

[@tonepilot]

If she ever did, she certainly now couldn’t care less about the opinions of the uninformed masses.

[@TAROTAI]

I wouldn't want to see my grandma looking like . . . ooh, all around ooh

[@Sister_Felinity_Imaculata]

If you've never sung when you can't hear yourself, then you just cannot know how difficult this show must have been for her. And I'm not even a fan of hers. I also don't blame her for reuploading with pitch correction, since she must feel at least some kind of responsibility towards her fans and wanted to provide a recording that was listen-able. I'm sure there's a good bit of pride in the re-upload, as well, since no singer wants a publicized recording of them singing off pitch.

[@reddragonready]

Hahaha what a lovely and sweet nature you have!

[@carr0760]

It's the worst! I have excellent pitch and muscle memory after 30 years of singing, so my pitch is usually still pretty accurate if I can't hear myself (not perfect, but if I know the song really well I'll be okay). The bigger problem is the tendency to over-sing in a desperate attempt to hear yourself. That's just a set up for injury. (And sounds like crap!) I usually work out some hand signals with whoever is running the board just in case I need adjustments on the fly.

[@eduardochavacano]

Madonna went to Israel to deliver a message. The peasants didnt get to hear the prophecy because they just following the pipper. Madonna doesnt have to prove anything. She is busy building schools, hospitals, and orphanges. She has bigger concerns than trying to sing like an American Idol contestant.

[@justintime42000]

@@eduardochavacano Then why go on the show?

[@annettegilbert3715]

@@carr0760 Absolutely correct! It's hideous when you can't hear yourself ‼️

[@kevdmiller]

Just want to say that I love how you aren't here to tear people down. Most of your videos are just about admiring great music, and even when you're critical, it's constructive and thoughtful. While most of the internet is about snark and trash talk, you give a very fair minded point of view, like you've delivered here...anyone who's played a lot of live gigs knows this feeling...not being able to hear yourself and just hoping for the best. I'm very happy my worst moments on stage weren't captured (at least not to my knowledge).

[@drewpall2598]

Your musical knowledge never ceases to amaze me! Fil I ask myself It would be interesting to hear Madonna input on what she was going through on that night performance. Then You brough up that very same question toward the end of your analysis. 👍

[@kentmains7763]

I've always thought she's a pretty good singer and this doesn't change my mind. Love these breakdowns Fil.

[@JohnDoe-ub8fq]

Being a Grateful Dead fan, forgetting lyrics, missed notes, voice cracking is GREAT, because it's authentic live. And most critics (and music critics) on YT have never written a song, let alone a hot song. Great review of the truth.

[@carolsimpson4422]

Their rough moments make their golden moments shine that much brighter.

[@sf9145]

I agree!!

[@mojokg13]

This is fascinating to watch!, I saw Madonna live in 2006 was in the front row, she was absolutely phenomenal, she wouldn't be where she is without hard graft and raw talent, people like to forget that she paved the way for many female artists who followed.

[@CabinFever52]

I saw a televised (or maybe it was online) concert she did back in the 80s or 90s. Wow! When you consider how much she was dancing, along with the singing! I couldn't believe how great she sounded while doing all that dancing. Amazing!

[@mojokg13]

@@CabinFever52 absolutely! she was approaching 50 the time I saw her and danced non stop while singing live, she was incredible I have to give credit where its due.

[@voulafisentzidis8830]

How did Madonna pave the way for other female singers? Females have sung for decades - in abundance in the 50s and 60s.

[@BelleWhittington]

You make an excellent point regarding her not being able to hear her voice.

[@charlottejohnk6712]

How difficult it must be to perform while doing multiple things at the same time especially in a huge venue ! As I was watching your analysis I’m embarrassed to admit that I was expecting to hear that Madonna was lacking in some way. Your fair and logical approach was how I knew that I had a negative expectation and it made me change how I looked at it. I will be more thoughtful in future judgments, thanks!

[@mtn_linda364]

Let's all remember that she was 61 when she sang this. We all lose our hearing as we age and we can't really do anything about it. Kudos for Madonna for having done this at all. Edit: I'm truly happy for you who still have good hearing. I've suffered from tinnitus all my life and it has taken its toll. I no longer enjoy music as I did when I was young. That is very painful for me as I am a music lover.

[@MyMags8]

No we don’t all lose our hearing as we age. Some people lose some hearing, some lose more & some don’t lose any hearing….

[@sociald100]

@@MyMags8 rickbeato did a good video about the hearing issue with aging. I dont think in this case with Madonna that is what it is. but the vast majority do end up off. It goes beyond just saying hearing loss though. the brain ends up compensating and teh person thinks they are in tune when they are not and in almost all cases they are flat by a semitone. in this case its the loud backing vocals i think. when those come in I can tell if it was me i wouldnt be able to hear myself.

[@bobdownes162]

I'm a Composer/ Multi - instrumentalist /Singer etc. Also 84 years of age. My hearing is excellent according to my Ear Doctor. And I still sing and play in tune. You can check it out on Y/T.

[@bobdownes162]

@@sociald100 Are you using a German keyboard ? Because your THE came out as TEH, which often happens to me.

[@sociald100]

@@bobdownes162 lol no i just do that alot

[@RSVPini]

I'd just like to throw in here that I'm a Dylan fan and have seen him live more times than I can remember. If he used auto-tune, he wouldn't be Bob Dylan. He'd be Kanye West (Ye) doing a Dylan impression. I'd rather hear an artist working at singing and having an off night than someone faking it.

[@carlasammons5407]

Live should be live. I want authentic voices. I think it’s a shame that Madonna’s technical people didn’t take all the other factors (background vocals/instruments etc) into account. Isn’t that their job? Thanks for another great analysis Fil. I think you’re right, she literally couldn’t hear herself. Sad.

[@ELREASON44]

I would not be happy expecting a true live performance to find out later that it was mimed and/or simulated in other areas. Frankly, there is little reason to go to live shows if the show is not actually live. If paying concertgoers don't mind, that fine-but it should be clear if the show is live or only partially live. The line is not as clear as we would like, but miming is very clear and I don't have as much interest if it is not actually live.

[@niloo_atribecalledlove]

As a vocalist who does not use auto-tune, I can attest to the difficulty of using in ear monitors without a thorough and expert sound check and sound engineer. I prefer to hear the house rather than have a mediocre in ear sound. Props to vocalists who sing live. Others aren’t singers in my opinion... Just performers. #LiveSinger for life. 🤘🏽🤘🏽🤘🏽

[@MrDannyDetail]

Another infamous problem with apparent out of tune singing at Eurovision was when the UK's entry Jemini sounded really flat during their live performance in the 2003 contest, causing them to get the UK's first nul point, and afterwards, after huge amounts of grief from the media, and online, I think they did outright say that they couldn't hear themselves properly, so I'd love for this channel to analyse that performance and see if that claim was true, or if it was something else that was happening.

[@itzikisthename]

Yesss great idea

[@MKNAuniverse]

Everybody already said it beautifully, about your objectivity and your ability to explain always more about the “why”, so I just wanted to thank you for your videos, I learn so much!!! This is so interesting (in all ways) and helping my understanding of all this world and industry, especially currently: I always sang without being amplified, and now it’ll happen in a week so… such a wonderful synchronicity to find your channel, and absolutely grateful for your shares, insights and content!

[@kaisasyrjakangas5109]

As an eurovision fan I remember clearly listening to this performance on TV an wondering what was going on. The performance sounded really peculiar and if I remember correctly, there was speculation whether or not Madonna was going to perform at all. I always thought that there might not have been enough rehearsals because of that.. It was really nice hearing the isolated singing! And I would always prefer the natural voice over the tuned one, because to me music is about emoting and taking the listener for a journey - not about ”perfection”❤️

[@adrianl5899]

Everything pointed to a monitoring problem - one any of us who have performed live will sympathsise with - so credit to Madonna for persisting through because it's completely disconcerting having a poor reference. Beyond that, as her in-ear mix may have been very different from the backing track we heard, it's impossible to know what exactly was going wrong. Thanks for the videos!

[@jporter504]

Madonna was I believe the 3rd biggest selling music artist of the 1980s. I was never a big fan but she was not known for her singing ability but rather the quality of her entire performance.

[@frigginjiggy]

You mentioned Madonna losing her reference point when the guys came in singing in the lower register. As you suggested, their voices may have produced resonant frequencies. However, there may be another explanation. Many years ago I studied sound in order to work as a sound technician when I wasn't playing in a band. One of the first things I learned was, as people get older and their hearing starts to be affected, they tend to lose the higher frequencies first. The lower frequencies actually sound louder. I'm wondering if maybe the that is a reason the guy's voices interfered with her ability to hear herself. Or, at the very least, it may not have helped her situation any.

[@cindypowers4993]

Interesting and valid point. As with age, our voices change along with our hearing. As a performer, and a very famous one at that, it must be more of a challenge.

[@stevecampbell9670]

Like the Yanny/Laurel thing a few years back.

[@Lamster66]

Not really, you lose frequencies at the High end so you can't hear a Bat's sonar anymore. The 18-20khz range you had in your teens goes( without you knowing). i'm gettng on a bit now and a couple of years ago, I took an online musicians hearing test. This was after standing in the garden at dusk with my daughter and saying, "I don't hear Bats anymore, you always used to hear bats at dusk." Where my daughter replied" I can hear Bats are you deaf!" Anyway turns out I'm deaf above 14-15Khz and dropping out at 11-12khz. I can still mix track perfectly well and I can certainly tell if something is in tune or not so no! The only reason is a crappy mix in her headset or nothing through the headset at all.

[@Lea99Jones]

@@Lamster66 Um, not. The typical hearing loss in geezers like me starts at or around 4k. Go to Costco Hearing Aid center & talk to the people who really know. And, yes, when you lose 4-8 K, the midranges and lows sound proportionally louder.

[@MrLuigiFercotti]

The brain loses it's ability to discriminate sounds from background noise as we age, and it's independent of actual loss.

[@alexioverdo5225]

You made me change my critical mind about this performance.I understood it was finally an unfair accident what happened there for her.Appart from your special knowledges,i realize you are an exceptional and distinctive nice man.Also thank you for that Abba-Wembley live track detailful analysis some time back, btw.

[@stantongrace1380]

I so appreciate the way you weave through genres, without prejudice. Country, pop rock, easy listening. Good job great analysis .What a pleasure it is going through your archived historical takes.

[@todd5082]

Live is live. I expect imperfections. If I want to listen to an artist’s “perfect rendition” mixed in a studio I’ll just listen to the CD and save the money. Any auto-tuning should be required to be posted as “80% live music”.

[@runesmom1]

When I was younger one of my coworkers (who also sang in her church choir) mentioned to me that one of the ways she practices her singing was with earplugs in & she plugged her nose so that she could not hear herself. That’s how she learned to get herself to the right pitch, by eliminating her ability to hear & therefore it heightened her ability to sense (by vibration?) where her pitch was at. I always thought that was so ingenious.

[@pateagle7191]

Maybe the soundguy forgot to lower the choir level and she got thrown under the bus. It had to be torture for her.

[@drewpall2598]

If anyone watching this and has a Connection with Madonna please have her get in touch with Fil Wings of Pegasus. Thanks!

[@wingsofpegasus]

😂👍

[@shedevil50337]

This was very interesting & makes me feel a little sorry for her. TBH I think a lot of us Eurovision fans were already angry with her & less prepared to be forgiving. She messed around the organisers by refusing to commit to the competition until literally 2 days before the final, so after the live singing had taken place for the semis, refusing to sign the contact after haggling extensively & didn't even turn up to the venue until as late as possible. Then she performed as she did. She was put to shame by the competitors & other interval acts., in spite of acting like a diva & treating the organisers & fans with derision & disdain.

[@PleaseNThankYou]

She should come on to talk about it with you since you are the only one cutting her slack!

[@CrimeHound]

What I appreciate is you do this with total respect, and you explain why things go wrong. For someone like me, who can't sing a note without killing someone else...it's a complete mystery. Keep up the good work!

[@JCWiley2300]

Even demystified, this performance was a disaster on so many levels, and Madonna was a victim of poor planning. I think a big part of the problem is- why the heck did they decide to pitch the song 1/2 - 1 full step HIGHER than the studio recording?? Madonna's voice is obviously lower than it was in 1989, and you can tell she's straining. Which makes every missed note and imprecise delivery sound even more tortured and sloppy.

[@evawettergren7492]

Well, the first one was not at all as bad as I had been told.

[@majeddraws5104]

We need to bring her to your channel! :)

[@lieslwindjulie3230]

Great analysis, Fil. I watched that performance live. I could feel she was struggling somehow. In the auto-tuned version, she sounds like a chipmunk. I love Madonna, especially her album 'Ray of Light' and I really enjoy when she sings pop ballads like 'Live To Tell'. Thanks! 🖤🤘🏽

[@tracyzimmerman7912]

Love that song

[@lieslwindjulie3230]

@Tracy Zimmerman I dare to say Madonna and Patrick Leonard created a masterpiece.

[@lieslwindjulie3230]

@riina k The music video for 'Frozen' left me in awe the first time I saw it. What a song!

[@lieslwindjulie3230]

'Sky Fits Heaven' is also a brilliant song ✨

[@wintyrqueen]

This reminds me of an Aerosmith performance I saw at some awards show years ago. Everyone talking about how bad Steven Tyler’s voice was, but through the whole thing you could see him tapping on his in ears… he clearly couldn’t hear himself at all

[@typeorulz]

Very interesting! I will remember this vid on Sunday morning in church trying to sing and not sound obnoxious. I have to say Madonna's full voice prevents her from ever sounding bad. It is such a textured and powerful instrument that it always sounds good. I cannot believe all the energy this woman has created and experienced in her life. Magnificent.

[@Dr_Madonna]

Madonna is cool. A true rebel.

[@cindypowers4993]

You've pretty much covered the spectrum in regards to the use of auto-tune and pitch correction. I appreciate the aspect that maybe Madonna couldn't hear herself as her performance progressed. As a singer, that's got to be terrifying. She's a seasoned artist, only she knows what the circumstances were during that performance. I would prefer a live performance, with no embellishments. I'm no fan of Madonna's, yet I applaud her efforts to sing live. Live is best, forget the rest...✌️

[@drewpall2598]

Hi Cindy... I don't know if you have heard of Mandy Harvey who became completely deaf by the age of 18, she a jazz singer/songwriter who plays the ukulele she also a motivational speaker. I find her inspiring. may you enjoy. Mandy Harvey "wows" the crowd with her delightful personality, inspirational story and incredible acapella rendition of "Smile" at the Invisible Disabilities Association Gala Kickoff Party! kzbin.info/www/bejne/ene4oZ-uZcR3jLM

[@cindypowers4993]

@@drewpall2598 Wow! How astonishing! Mandy's got a sweet voice. Don't know how she stays in tune, must be her musical training and her father's inspirations for her to continue on even after her hearing loss. Her speaking voice is so clear, amazing. I used to work with a woman who was deaf, and she spoke, but it was quite challenging to understand what she was saying, but we managed to communicate. Hope you are well Drew.✌️😊

[@drewpall2598]

@@cindypowers4993 I was born with a speech impediment, so I admire people like Mandy who has overcome obstacles in their life to achieve their dreams. I am grateful that Mother Nature has been kind to me ⛅ hope she has been kind to you as well.🧡✌😊

[@janbarnes9377]

Love these auto-tune pitch correct reactions from you!!

[@carlwilliams6977]

Great analysis, but Let's face it. Madonna has always had more drive and vision, then talent. For example... Madonna can't hold a candle to Lady Gaga's voice IMHO. However, Lady Gaga wouldn't be where she is, without Madonna. At her arts school, Madonna told her classmates (paraphrasing) Remember me when I'm famous. They all laughed!

[@franciscolaprida2133]

Madonna is a much better songwriter though

[@carlwilliams6977]

@@franciscolaprida2133 Maybe they should team up!😊 Seriously, thanks, I wasn't even aware that Madonna wrote anything!

[@pierpaolonathancorrieri2290]

Mate she has tons of talent but not an amazing singer... Best dancer, best visionary, best songwriter and performer.. With no talent you wouldn't be were she is for so long... Lol.. How silly...

[@carlwilliams6977]

@@pierpaolonathancorrieri2290 I'll tell you what's silly "mate". You basically agreed with me! I pointed out her drive and vision and said I wasn't aware of the songwriting. You admitted she doesn't have a great voice! So, we agree. Obviously, this video was concerned solely with her voice. However, if you think it's necessary to be a top talent to stay popular, you clearly haven't been paying attention!

[@pierpaolonathancorrieri2290]

@@carlwilliams6977 what are you on about.. All your doing 'mate'. Much time on your hands much

[@Napukettu]

I recall seeing this live and cringing so hard. I feel like at a venue with nothing but different sorts of singing acts, why's her setup so crap that this happened?

[@carr0760]

I'll copy what I said to someone else, and add this: having multiple different acts in a row makes the sound Tech's job SO much harder. Every act has different settings, so it's a lot to manage. Sometimes things just change between sound check and the performance. The addition of a screaming audience has an impact. Maybe the drummer starts playing louder than they did before. Maybe someone tweaked something out the soundboard (either by accident or intentionally)..things happen. I've done performances where everything was great during sound check but then in the performance it felt like all of my levels were different. I've also had my in ears just totally crap out in the middle of a song. Signal interference or something. Even when everything is set up exactly right, things can still go wrong.

[@wintyrqueen]

The question of what people would prefer out of a live performance, against using backing tracks & faking it was one of the key parts of my master’s thesis. Overwhelmingly people want the real thing, & an honest show

[@decimal_five]

Pitch correcting used to be just on dance records, now I hear it on country artists and indie acts. It's a shame I feel because its another step in de-humanising people and increased pressure on people to sound /look / be perfect. Its like when someone's obviously been under the knife and then flat out denies they've had any work done. I miss natural character.

[@Naydzart]

Fascinating analysis of artists. This might outside your realm but as a classical violinist we are always pursuing perfect intonation. Jasha Heifetz claimed he played perfectly in tune. I think it would interesting to see how close classical string artists play in tune.

[@mikemathieson3700]

Can U imagine the panic she would have been experiencing knowing she couldn't hear herself

[@catherinesplane98]

🖤💜🖤💜🖤💜🖤 Pegasus in the night sky

[@DarraghC]

great vid, nothing worse than not being able to hear your voice when your singing. (Much prefer live singing for better or worse)

[@AWanderingEye]

Sadly I never really could hear my own voice on stage so in school productions I always arranged to stand next to someone who : 1 was singing same part I was 2 knew the words 3 knew the music ! I really ought to send her a cheesecake or one of those fruit of the month club packages so popular right now. She (Marie Grimm, was Kachelmeyer) went on to sing at weddings and funerals. I got an office job and bought CDs and sing in the car (my sanctuary).

[@Lamster66]

When I was younger I was having tutoring from a keyboard player who toured with Gary Numan back in the day. Anyone who has every been to an 80s Numan gig will know they usually started with a deep droned bass synth that evolved into the opening song. He said performing at hammersmith odeon in London was pretty dreadful because you have your click and backline/foldback which is deafening you as you start the gig. The Drone starts and everything seems fine, then the curtains open you get the roar of the crowd the sound of the click and backline disappears and from then on you can hear next to bugger all.

[@1BrandyS1]

I would vote for singing live, off key then auto tuned.

[@edjackson9521]

I like her early stuff. I'll give her credit for keeping her career relevant for so long.

[@MLGballyMeisterSamBall]

I remember watching this live and it was shocking. I guess you could put it down to monitors etc but I went in to work the next day and said watch this, then the next day the youtube clips were all rectified. The problem seemed to be that she couldn't hear herself, the shenanigans the next day were another thing. Her problem was inept sound guys.

[@cindyrwagner6930]

When you pointed out that Madonna couldn’t hear her own voice, I thought of people I have known who had hearing issues, they couldn’t hear themselves so they couldn’t modulate their voice, sometimes it would be to loud or not loud enough or very flat. Thank you so much for your thoughtful analysis.

[@MGTV1]

i have always noticed that madonna was a flat singer. even in her finished recordings.

[@MGTV1]

she could have really sounded great if she would have stayed in her range.

[@alinaveed20]

Madonna is a great singer. You clearly have not heard Evita's Soundtrack or Ray of Light. Clean your ears kid. @@MGTV1

[@MGTV1]

@@alinaveed20 pffft. lmao.

[@rexwave4624]

There is a phenomenon called “masking” whereby low frequencies obscure high frequencies.

[@suehollar2578]

It would be nice if Madonna even sent you a short email stating if your analysis is what actually happened. But I'm glad you explained the technicalities. Otherwise I would not have understood that even pros like her could have a bad night.

[@leesmith7727]

In Madonna's defense, she never claimed to be a good singer. She is a talented artist. I don't care for the women personally, but that isn't the point.

[@goopah]

Brilliant explanation for laymen like myself, who have known something has sounded wrong for years, but couldn't tell you why. Also, thanks for highlighting how tough it is for these singers on a live stage with all of these sounds coming through and making it nigh-impossible to hit a note. I have much more respect for these artists since I've been watching these, and much LESS respect for whoever it is that makes the decision to apply Autotune.

[@MichiaMakes]

I was a singer and I’ve had this very situation happen! My night when sideways when my voice fell into my old spot as background vocalist. So, while I was supposed to be lead vocalist, I had more practice on harmony. That’s where my voice went. I had the male back vocal in my ear without my own. My voice went straight to harmonizing with his. It was a thing. It happened. We all went on with the night and the rest of our lives. P. S. Madonna started as a drummer in a band.

[@ThisTrainIsLost]

I believe that you already know the position that I am going to take: I will choose raw and real over prepped and perfect nine ways from Sunday every single time. If I was going to fork out the massive sum of filthy lucre that it takes to buy a concert ticket these days, I'd be a fool to spend it on listening to a computer sing. I prefer a live performance by a living human being, errors and all. Even those errors are something to remember. This was indeed an interesting video and I thank you for it very much. If I could choose another artist to analyse in the way you did Madonna, it would be Alanis Morrisette performing a song from her debut album. That recording was most definitely NOT autotuned. All the best and stay well. 😎🎤🎸✌️