Winnebago EKKO - Charging at Idle! - Lithionics and Balmar

[@robsmith2647]

"Stop recording me" That was the best part if the whole vid!!!!!

[@alnolan8574]

The end of the video was the best! Your wife knew exactly what she was doing!

[@joanmcerlean7158]

Wow, another great class from my favorite teaching channel. In formative and understandable to this non-technical viewer. Having watched the Morton’s video last night, and now yours, it’s clear to me that quiet, efficient, and cost effective lithium systems are the ideal way to go. Can’t wait for future videos about your new rig. Thanks for the “outtake” at the end. A reminder that new RV’s giveth to our mental health, and taketh away. Happy New Year.

[@waynebersch9150]

Perfect end to the vid. Another two seconds and all of us would have witnessed James losing his cookies!

[@terryharrigan6324]

Love the after show.

[@readynow7430]

SORRY but I couldn’t STOP laughing at the end. 🤣🤣🤣. It reminded me of how I get impatient at times. Wish you could have shown us what you were doing wrong, as some of us may have the same problem.

[@ToddNelson-vg9uq]

I really appreciate all of your sincere efforts and openness. God bless you brother. You are great at what you do.

[@stevehunter1775]

Thats the best ending to one of your videos ever. Had me on the floor

[@LisaMarli]

I'm glad those under hood generators are a good replacement for the noisy ones everyone uses. Especially since most people with that kind of system will be depending on Solar. And the chair at the end of priceless, especially Stef laughing. You are not alone, I always have problems.

[@Thefitrv]

We hope we will get better at that seat with practice. But yeah, (Stef here) I couldn’t get the drivers seat to turn at all... it’s HARD!!!

[@doloresbruce3622]

sorry for the struggle with the seat but, it was funny to watch. Have a great day!

[@thebillbaker4793]

Hello my friend, best part of this video is the engineer messing with that seat. I forgot about all the information you gave me when I saw that seat kicking your butt. Maybe we can get a video on how to turn the seat. Thank you Stefanie that was a good video and keep the bell out of sight. Stay thirsty my friend.

[@justfollowthatvan6721]

Best ending ever!! I’m rolling!

[@philsmith5400]

Especially liked the seat part!!

[@richardd.4421]

I found that very interesting but would like to know at that rate of charge how long will it take to charge the batteries from the 82% starting point to full . Thanks again for another lesson in electricity and your ability to simplify it.

[@ToniAdventures]

The last couple minutes had me laughing so hard!

[@Thefitrv]

You and me both! 😂 James though, not so much. 😬

[@underdog8896]

Nice sound effects with door chime.

[@vanderlustforever7134]

James battling the driver’s seat was very entertaining.

[@dogman1264]

Thanks for another great-overview, as that has been a question on my mind. On to another topic, the SHOP is coming along nicely. Just a thought in my shop tool desk, my wife calls it. I had added some kitchen cabinets from Home depot along with doors. Just a suggestion, as the cabinets-come in a box of parts you have to put together. Thanks for the SHARE, and be safe.

[@Thefitrv]

Shop is pretty much "done". (It's never really done.) There's a playlist on our channel home page of all the shop build videos!

[@dogman1264]

@@Thefitrv go show thanks for the hard work, informative feedback on well everything RV & Lithium.

[@donnareedfan]

So funny, and relatable ... but great demo and explanation of the charging.

[@tjjones390]

Thank you so much for the info and the laugh at the end!

[@Thefitrv]

Glad you enjoyed it! (I can laugh about it now...)

[@daves1646]

James, Nice exercise routine! Chime keeps cadence for your combined strength and aerobic routine with the seat. Really is a ‘Fit RV’ eh? P.S. Thanks for the informative look at 3 charging sources for Ekko too.

[@Thefitrv]

LOLLL! (Stef here) When he was tugging the seat to the beat I was laughing so hard I had tears (quietly, because I knew he was about to lose it 😂)! He’s also a drummer, btw. I don’t think he could resist staying with the beat, even in the middle of a tantrum. 😂😂😂

[@brandonsaunders3871]

Answered some great questions we all had. Thank you.

[@gd4u422]

Thanks for the info but the chair was the best part LOL!

[@Thefitrv]

I can laugh about it now... :-)

[@SAFT_NB]

Super informative and the chair was funny as heck.

[@dougmanck4149]

Now that was informative. Thanks. Not sure what you were doing to that innocent seat. Wish you had another camera angle. Or maybe KZbin wouldn't allow it. LOL.

[@bill2292]

I wonder how much HP the Balmar uses when it is not charging and how much it uses when it is charging. Do you know?

[@curemeister7443]

Please do not edit this portion out of your detailed review. These issues are real and experienced by all of us at one time or another. Items like this seat problem are both funny and most helpful.

[@davepress9919]

Have you done any tests of fuel consumption of idling the engine with the loaded alternator, on either a Transit or Promaster-based RV? I'm debating whether to order our Ekko with a Generator or without and wonder about the fuel efficiency of generator versus engine idle. I found specs online about the generator's gas consumption (~0.4 gal/hr at half load; 0.5 gal/hr at full load) and am wondering if idling the engine + alternator is comparable to that or is far far higher. Thanks!

[@7heRedBaron]

I’m sure a lot depends on how you are using it. If you are doing vacation camping a few times a year, you’ll never put enough wear on the engine to even cause more than a few oil changes. If you’re retired and living out of it half the year or more, I would definitely get the generator. Putting wear and tear on your engine is the most expensive place to do that.

[@carlbeaver7112]

There probably won't be much difference between the vehicle engine idling vs. an Onan 2800 screaming it's little lungs out while irritating the beejaheesus out of you and anyone camping near you. A new Transit with dual alternators is rated at 500 amps of which 175 are made available for non-vehicle usage. If all 175 amps aren't available at idle it will be close. 175a x 14.2v = 2,485 watts, about the same as the Onan can maintain (2800 watts is its max output, not running output.) Then consider if you have a hydronic system you'll have hot water for a shower or two plus hot dishwater and house heat, if needed. Regarding engine life, I just retired from 50+ years as a pro mechanic, finishing out as an emergency vehicle tech. Our ambulances only shut down for service, once they leave the shop they run 24/7 - it takes too long to heat or cool the rear box to make a run. Plus, they still manage to roll up over 100k miles per year. Most of them have a life cycle of over 400k miles. All that idling doesn't hurt them a bit. Since electronic engine controls became a thing, electronic fuel and ignition controls prevent almost all oil/fuel contamination. So, in my book, the extra $ 850 Ford charges for the dual alternators, which includes dual AGM batteries, up-rated electrics and a 400w inverter, is a heckuva lot less expensive than a crappy Onan, mounted in a crappy location (that eliminates your spare tire or sticks it on the back door where you have to strain your milk to mount/dismount.) I imagine I'm not the only person that would be kicking and bit**ing if I had to crawl under the back of the van to work on that little pos, wrapped up in its plastic turtle shell covered in dirt and mud.

[@Pinky121971]

Happy New Year, Cant wait to see you on the road this 2021, Is this Ekko ready to see in The RV show Tampa? Thanks for sharing.

[@Thefitrv]

We have heard there will be an EKKO at the Florida Show, yes! :)

[@thomasgeriak4322]

I Believe the Ekko has a second alternator just to charge the Lithuonics system correct? So the gasser can idle for long periods of time for emergency charging and it will charge while driving. So why does the RV even need the 2800 watt gas generator?

[@BillSprague]

“Stop recording me!” 🤣😂🤣🤣

[@danxmanly]

Just starting researching Class B and C units... and your face is all over the place. ;-). Thanks for taking the time to do these... being an engineer myself I am digging deeper than most.. maybe, before shelling out the $$ for my ride. Question... I saw an aftermarket option to add the 2nd battery AND keep the generator. Do you think that would be overkill with all the other ways to charge the battery? Solar, and/or vehicle alternator. And for goodness sakes.. don’t leave us hanging on the chair thing... what was the issue? A true design flaw? Something broke? I know it wasn’t user error. .. hmmm.

[@aprilstark8887]

I am really looking forward to seeing what your solution to the cassette toilet is going to be!

[@Thefitrv]

Still working on it!

[@richardburguillos3118]

That was great news and nicely explained. Now about that drivers seat....🤣

[@Surf422]

If the battery gets low enough for the computer to start the engine to charge it, how long does it have to charge it to put it back to max?

[@yt3141]

Useful information, thanks. I'd suggest there might be at least one additional factor, though. What was the engine RPM when you tested? Does it have a high idle on startup that slows over time? And perhaps the RPMs will also vary if you turn on the chassis AC, etc.?

[@Thefitrv]

It was definitely not at a high idle. Don't know exactly what the RPMs were. I had mere minutes to run the test...

[@geoffryallan7261]

Hi, love your videos - how long would it take to fully charge the batteries at idle - also which is better 2 lithium batteries or 1 lithium & the generator? Happy travels 😊

[@kimbalgoeke7998]

Thanks for another great vid! So let say gas tank is below 3/4 and can't use the generator, how long at idle to charge battery if battery is completely discharged?

[@TimYuan-wn6cn]

Think the battery's lower charging rate when they are above 80%. Wonder if even a higher charging rate would be present if the batteries where lower (like running the ac overnight)

[@juanpasion9619]

Once again - Great video! The spreadsheet graphic perfectly illustrate power production and usage. Have you done a similar graphic for the Solis PX?

[@InspiredByBrad]

In my Pleasure Way Ascent, I added a second Progressive Dynamics lithium charger, which can be run in parallel to increase charging amps from the generator or shore power. This allows the ability to max out the charging amps that the battery bank can take, and offer the option to maximize charging energy of the generator. The chargers are run on separate breakers, so power can be managed to not overload the generator or shore power. Is it possible in the Ekko, to do something similar to increase the charging amps from the generator or shore power?

[@Thefitrv]

Interesting. You'd have to make sure the charger was playing by the same rules/voltages/etc as the Xantrex. Offhand, I can't see a reason why it wouldn't work.

[@lqsi12]

and the most important question is can you use a instapot mini without running the generator, alternator, or worry about solar !

[@billsmith5042]

Steph, you wonderfully wicked thing....🤣

[@Thefitrv]

LOL! He had been going a couple minutes before I even started filming!!! As I was watching him it reminded me of that hilarious Family Guy clip where Peter struggles with Saran Wrap... couldn't resist turning the camera on! kzbin.info/www/bejne/fp7QlXqCgdaabKM

[@stephenstringer3689]

@@Thefitrv Sorry James but this made my day, lol! You go girl!

[@TheSquiggyacfd]

Subscribed...What's your pick for a class B, smaller class C like the Ekko, for AWD, Lithium, Boondocking?? Beyond, Galleria, Ekko?? Trying to decided.

[@davegarth]

Are there negative long term consequences to the engine if it idles for extended period of time?

[@Thefitrv]

We’re not sure, but it’s a good question. 👍

[@Judygurl2]

I've wondered this too, since I often idle my Promaster when the batteries are low and no access to shore power. Here in the pacific northwest we have little sun during winter months.

[@realtor411]

Are you getting a leveling system like Lance has? When is Lance going up for sale?? Thanks!!

[@xisotopex]

solar is not available to charge?

[@adamshinbrot]

1700 watts, huh? Impressive, now how's the gas mileage? :-)

[@garyamatthews1]

So, if you're plugged in/genny running plus idling???

[@comegowithMEE]

+ full sun...

[@Thefitrv]

Yes. They will "stack". Each battery can charge at a max rate of somewhere over 150 amps, if I remember right. You're unlikely to exceed that.

[@bhmbill]

We’re the solar panels adding anything to the batteries? Would like to see how fast they charge.

[@Thefitrv]

Indoors. Solar contribution was negligible. (Not even enough to keep up with the lights and refrigerator inside.)

[@stelbotadventures]

Hi James and Stef! Why is the cassette toilet on the bench next to you?

[@Thefitrv]

James is experimenting with it, lol!!!!

[@stephaniereed8869]

Hi James, the other Steph here. Does the Ford have troubles when idling like Mercedes? Is that just a diesel thing?

[@gosman949]

Adding to what Geriak mentions below, the real questions are this. How long to charge depleted batteries from the gas generator VS the alternator? It seems to me the best compromise is to get the gas generator for dependable power, but it should charge up the batteries so you don't need the generator at night when you are trying to sleep!?

[@Thefitrv]

The answers to your questions depend on about a thousand variables that only you can know, because they depend on your RVing style and habits. I can say that in 4+ years with a similar system, we have NOT ONCE wished for a generator. But every person has their own style, and what works for us might not work for others. (We don't like to stay put, for example.)

[@RobertSmith-os2zj]

Can you use a clamp amp meter to measure alt output at idle ?

[@Thefitrv]

Theoretically, but finding where to clamp would be the question.

[@brianjacobus722]

Does the ekko have a second alternator ? Or is it just one marine alternator ?

[@Thefitrv]

Two alternators. Ford alternator for the chassis. Balmar XT alternator for the house.

[@StpBks]

@@Thefitrv Are both alternators on the same belt? I can only imagine the work those belt(s) must be doing.

[@NewWorldDAO]

Long can you use the air conditioner without turning on the engine?

[@Lou-xd9ef]

Winnebago says up to 7 hours

[@omarwilliams6729]

I don't believe that.

[@williamdavis8598]

if they say 7 shoot fot 5 or 4

[@zm694]

Thank you for great explanation. I know it is early... Any word on whether the 24c will have same battery system? Has anyone seen a real life 24c? [It seems as though it would perfect for us.] If there is one at RV show pleeeezzze do a tour.

[@Thefitrv]

The battery system will be identical, yep! And I do believe WGO is planning to do a full reveal of the C in the last half of this month, though we aren’t involved in that so we don’t have any details. We can’t wait to see it, too!

[@infinityphotorob]

@@Thefitrv The C looks very very appealing.

[@smileymbb1]

Is the Balmar a 2nd alternator on the engine, or a higher output replacement for the OEM one? How easy and expensive is it to add or swap a Balmar into an existing chassis, like the Promaster or Transit?

[@7heRedBaron]

Pretty sure it’s a second alternator. If the engine doesn’t have the extra spindles to drive the extra belt for the second alternator, then that would have to be added and may get complicated. Not a big job for an experienced mechanic though.

[@simonefire]

What happened with the seat?

[@Thefitrv]

It’s just really hard to turn! And it was James’ first time, lol. We’re hoping it gets easier with practice. 🙄

[@Lou-xd9ef]

My Balmar charge contoller keep frying out.

[@tedschuldt7610]

You were charging at 13.5 V. Don't lithiums need to charge at 14.2 to 14.4 V? My Sprinter alternator puts 14.2 V while charging.

[@mts982]

so then HOW LONG does it take to charge the batteries?

[@Thefitrv]

Entirely depends on the state of charge when you start, what else you're running, engine RPMs, etc.

[@cedardog764]

The generator is not an option if you purchase lithium battery upgrade. If an owner adds more lithium capability; wouldn't the best place be where the generator goes? Can you discuss the pros/cons of generator/no gen w/ lithium? For someone who does 3 or 4 days max of off grid camping? Thanks, and really find your videos informative and useful. I am a shopper looking at buying something like the Ekko. Any other similar?

[@boxster1970]

You have exposed the problem with Transit swivel seats - they just dont work that well and require the door to be open. Tell Ford to fix this issue.

[@shekharmoona544]

Read the owners manual. 😂🤣😂🤣

[@scotthelmann5156]

How long will it continue before the alternator overheats? As an engineer wouldn’t you agree that a short 3 minute test really doesn’t provide any real useful information about what the continuous output would be after idling for 30-90 minutes. Useful information would be something like- What does the current get down limited to after idle charging for 45 minutes? Grab your temp gun and show us what the alternator temperature is after running and charging a heavy battery load at idle. Is it 60 degrees C or 100 degrees C? That’s the kind of really useful information you we have come to expect from your channel..

[@Thefitrv]

How long until the alternator overheats? How about NEVER? The Balmar system on the Ekko has two temperature sensors. One is connected to the Alternator, with the job of protecting the alternator. It will dial back the alternator output if things get too hot. So yeah. That second alternator will never overheat. And Captain Obvious called, and told us this was not a complete "torture test" of the system. We had access to the rig for a short time, we weren't allowed to drive it, and idling it non-stop indoors didn't seem like a polite thing to do to either the EKKO, or our Winnebago hosts. Besides, even running a test such as you describe would have presented a number of uncontrolled variables. (How hot is it outside? What's the humidity? What surface are you parked over? Is there a breeze? etc.) It seems like you're implying that partial information is worse than no information at all. I disagree.

[@donwhitehead4587]

Charging ability aside, did Winnebago get a deal on charcoal/dark gray Azdel and on white Transits?......because it looks like someone said, “Hey, I got a great idea, let’s take white cab bodies and join ‘em to dark Azdel panels. Nobody will notice how mismatched they look”. Totally white Ekkos would be more in keeping with the concept! White reflects light, thus keeping things cooler, is easier to see in traffic, requires less cleaning, etc. Geez, I sure hope Winnebago rethinks this color combo!

[@Thefitrv]

I do know that those are not the final exterior wall panels or Transit body colors. But I don't think the final ones will be too far off.

[@donwhitehead4587]

@@Thefitrv It’s fine for a prototype to be like this. I’m sure hoping the end product looks as good as the Thor Compss AWD on the Transit chassis.

[@stevecarr1992]

First time I've EVER heard that white is easier to keep clean than darker colors 🙃 Wear a white tee shirt, then brown one next day, working on a construction site, and let's see which gets dirtier. 🤔

[@mferrarorace]

I was wondering about the colors too. Yikes ugly! Prototype or not, just paint it.

[@sharvo6]

Stop recording me! We need Cone of Silence 2.0

[@frito_bandito_]

Too funny!

[@underdog8896]

Read the manual

[@michaelyates3424]

Um, why do you have a cassette toilet tank innocently sitting on you very nice (and expensive) workbench?

[@Thefitrv]

I made that bench years ago! That particular cassette has only ever had water in it. It's something I'm tinkering with.

[@michaelyates3424]

@@Thefitrv I've noticed it numerous times, honestly I thought it was a Sjobergs. Impressive work! I still will bet you you that with the wood and hardware it was still in the "expensive" category, but not nearly as much as you if you purchased it. You definitely built an heirloom piece, hope one of your children are into woodworking.

[@Thefitrv]

@@michaelyates3424 That bench is over 300 pounds of solid hickory! (So yeah... not cheap.) I hope to keep using it myself for years to come.

[@TheBuddyandlilly]

Huh

[@HobokenPanda]

Did anyone else watch the ending multiple times? 😂 . . . On a serious note, when are we going to see an Ekko with a poptop?

[@Thefitrv]

LOL! Yeah, that seat is a beast to turn. The Travato totally wins for ease of seat turning! Poptop, not sure. I’d guess very soon, but we haven’t gotten word yet.

[@zakksrage]

That’s a sure fire way to fry the regulator in the alternator

[@Thefitrv]

If it existed, maybe. This system uses a second alternator with a separate charge controller module. It's designed for this. This isn't some half-baked hack.

[@roberthauser5635]

That's a very poor look (TANTRUM) of you adjusting the seat!! 😡😡😡😡

[@gilbertthomas7296]

I'm Alone 😍😥

[@xToddmcx]

So over 5 hours to fully charge 2 batteries? Presumably 2.5 to charge one. This is why I'd rather they didn't even put those lithionics batteries in the EKKO. Leave them out so I don't have to replace a $4000 battery. You need higher voltage systems to charge quickly, 24 or 48V. I'm also not impressed by the 2000w inverter, inadequate for an 'off grid' vehicle. I mean, you can sort of force the 12v system to work. Balmar makes a 370A/12v alternator kit for the Transit, and most chargers can be run in parallel. But it gets heavy and expensive fast.

[@Thefitrv]

If you completely deplete the batteries, then yes: if you wanted to literally sit in one place and idle, it might take 5 hours. But in our four years of practice, we NEVER allow the battery to get all the way depleted. Nor do we sit in place to idle - and the charge time is less if you are driving.

[@xToddmcx]

@@Thefitrv I don't see the point in talking about unused battery capacity. Don't get extra batteries if you don't use them. That alternator has a peak output of 2000W, so the fastest it could charge the 2 batteries is 4 hours. Meanwhile APS makes 48v alternators that can output 6kw-8kw.

[@Thefitrv]

D C, We would have loved to test that. However, we weren't allowed to drive it, and only had limited time with it.

[@Thefitrv]

@@xToddmcx I always want more power than I could ever use! :-)

[@knockknockbusted]

Slick.