MALCADOR AND THE EMPEROR DISCUSS PRIMARCHS

[@FishwithFroi]

Big E talking to his best friend about how his boys are growing up and puberty.

[@00yiggdrasill00]

...shit...it really fits with how it all hit the fan. The primarchs grew up very quickly, but the mental and emotional growth when put in the time frame of their lives...the heresy may really have been brought on by teenage emotional doubts and instability in a way.

[@geiger987654321]

@@00yiggdrasill00 can you imagine a young hormonal Angron? He probably was screaming and twitching in his cell while in his sleep.(most definitely had some chain blade next to his slave bed) God I would feel sorry for his cell mates...

[@ElectromagNick]

@@geiger987654321 Angron definitely had night terrors growing up. Speaking of, Curze.

[@huwtindall7096]

The relationship between the Emperor and Malcador demonstrates how alone Guilliman must feel in the current timeline. There is literally nobody he can have a cup of tea and a biscuit with.

[@tomb7704]

Huw Tindall Dante?

[@huwtindall7096]

@@tomb7704 good shout. At the end of Dark Imperium Dante kneels to before Guilliman who orders him not to kneel before him so there is clearly much respect for Dante. Ultimately though Dante is "only" 1000 years old so wasn't around at the time of the HH so can't really relate to Robute in terms of the Imperium that was meant to be vs the grim dark. At the end of the Dark Imperium it's clear DanteThe only real chance of giving Robute a buddy is a another loyalist Primarch.

[@tomb7704]

@@huwtindall7096 You make a good point but you could argue Dante is his elder with time actually spent "Alive". I agree with what you say about having no one from his actual time line to relate to, it's probably still going to be very fresh in his mind even though things have moved on drastically.

[@huwtindall7096]

@@tomb7704 great point! Just did a quick check and the Primarchs were all 'born' aroudn 750.M30 and Robute gets killed in 121.M31...so that's only 371 years of awake time!

[@landbeforetimeee]

He could always invite magnus over for lunch.

[@geiger987654321]

I love how Khan was the first primarch who screamed "For the Emperor!!" While destroying a keeper of secrets. Greater daemons be damned. (Big E must of thought to himself welp he is loyal"

[@ribbitgoesthedoglastnamehe4681]

Those who make a show of being loyal, are not.

[@geiger987654321]

@@ribbitgoesthedoglastnamehe4681 The Khan isn't fulgrim. You are right about those who make a show of loyalty isn't true loyalty. But Khan's journey made him conclude his loyalty as well as his moral beliefs. He was loyal through his understanding of the situation and what he believed in pragmatically. He also compared himself with his traitor brothers and saw how they became pawns to daemons and how they cared for own self interest. While the emperor although a tyrant was doing so for the betterment of humanity. That alone is selfless. " why do you think the council of terra was formed? It was to allow the average human to be able to have a say in the imperium of man. First and foremost the astarte legions were designed to be protectors of humanity not rulers of it.

[@ribbitgoesthedoglastnamehe4681]

@@geiger987654321 I agree with what you said about Khan, though I do remind you that what you call journey, starts with not actually being loyal. Situational loyalty is conditional loyalty. I do not claim he would have been disloyal either. But I am saying he doubted himself at some point, that is why the need to prove. With Emps... I dont think he has been actually good for tens of millennia. Logical, yes, having good intentions, maybe, but he executed his own Thunder Warriors. That is such corruption that whatever he believed to be doing right, was bound to become corrupted as well. Remember, many characters believe him to be good, many were literally brainwashed to believe he was good. And nothing he said can be trusted. That leaves actions, which speak louder than words, and the guy has very little good to be said of him.

[@geiger987654321]

@TheGodEmperorofMankind who was the first primarch to scream "for the emperor!" During the Heresy?

[@geiger987654321]

@UCFE15C7ilLK6mZuQ1y_iL0w but who was the first loyal primarch that screamed it during the horus heresy? Obviously they all said it at one point, but during the actual heresy, which one of the primarchs said it first?

[@gwyndolin1536]

The Emperor - "My heart grieves for the greatest of my sons....Angron.....right next to Bob and Larry of the 2nd and 11th....."

[@pharoahanubis6716]

Funny

[@peterc3262]

Don't say those names. We forgot them on purpose. Why weren't you cleansed?

[@sonofangron2969]

The feels man... 😭

[@bruvathroatpuncher500]

Angron should've been aborted. And his legion's anger is nothing more than male insecurity. My legend and I tested them in the field, they were destroyed by us. Also those who serve chaos is F*****t. ALWAYS ANGRY ALL THE TIME!!!

[@thesecondprimarch7694]

...I hate these options. And you can’t mock me for names when you have more snake features than Fulgrim

[@jonharper8963]

Emperor - I’ve made Horus Warmaster Malcador - he’s not the Warmaster he’s a very naughty boy!

[@namekman01]

salad fingers reference?

[@andrewdupon1488]

@@namekman01 Life of brian. Its a monty python movie.

[@namekman01]

@@andrewdupon1488 i dont remember that scene... guess i gota watch it again

[@SquatterLoki]

Fabius Bile: He's an overzealous thug wearing his gene father's hand-me-downs

[@jeetsohpal557]

Gotta love life of Brian. “Big-us-dick-us” 😉🤣🤣

[@alphariusomegon1637]

Alpharius may have lost faith in the dream but Omegon never will

[@Scott90314]

Judging by your name I suspect you also like alpha legion. Do you think that alpharius or omeganon is alive? I am brand new to 40k I love the idea of a loyalist Alpha legion I noted he said that alpharius never gave his dream a chance, but not omeganon. Idk If it is merely wistful thinking on my behalf.

[@PropheticShadeZ]

Scott Fee the annoying thing is some writers lean one way and some the other, for example in the dawn of war game, they are shown as normal chaos marines, in others they appear behind schemes to destabilise systems, and yet others leave it vague, no consistency in portrayal

[@klobbson]

@@PropheticShadeZ As is fitting for the masters of deception.

[@magnusthered4973]

Hello brothers are you sharing an account

[@lorenzomacchiavello3701]

Indeed me, indeed

[@generalkrieg5841]

Malcador the best bro we need in the current 40k time line

[@jeanvagin2255]

Definitely not

[@kohtalainenalias]

General Krieg The goodest boy he is

[@spike.strat1318]

One of Malcador’s job’s seems to be searching the shadows for betrayal. ( hence the assassinorum) He’s always got the Emperors back and keeps his friends hands clean.

[@saltedllama2759]

Malcador was also largely responsible for the Grey Knights.

[@justinanderson2460]

@@saltedllama2759+ You mean entirely responsible.

[@gabrielm.942]

God this is why I love big E, everyone acts like he’s inhuman. But this just shows, with the person he can actually be himself with. That he actually loves his sons, Malcador is the Emperors brother in every sense of the term except blood. It is in him that he can actually be honest.

[@androssthered1157]

But then we see the conversation between Guilliman and the big E makes it seem like he does not favor his sons as sons at all.

[@kuropotato8097]

@@androssthered1157 That conversation happened after the emperor had cast his compassion away "literally tore it off his soul" just to be able to kill Horus, beside he had been sitting on a torture throne literally dying for the past ten thousand years. Give the god a break. If Guilliman was horrified at the hell he awoke to, Imagine how the emperor is feeling, literally watching it turn into said hell while not being able to do anything to stop it. I can't imagine a fate worse than that.

[@androssthered1157]

@@kuropotato8097 if he rid himself of his compassion then it makes him all the more callous to a son who views him as a father though. Like many stories in 40k it's a tragedy

[@ianharrison5758]

@@androssthered1157 I mean to be honest I don’t think comparing the two situations is fair. The emperor had been sitting on the golden throne for 10,000 years before he spoke to rowboat. His mind and soul were shattered, his humanity literally spread across warp. The emperor is not the same being he used to be. I’m sure the emperor saw the primarchs as both his kids and his tools at the same time, but when you’ve been losing your mind for 10k years in constant agony while you’re soul is lashed against the tides of the warp, it makes sense he wouldn’t have much love for one of the same batch of demigod man children that put him there to begin with. All I’m gonna say is that if I was the emperor I wouldn’t have even tried to be like “son I miss you, how was your nap”. I’d absolutely just be like “hey talking is agony, so do what I made you to do and don’t make shit worse than it already is”

[@derekdecker555]

@@ianharrison5758 lol facts. And let’s not forget Guilliman’s “What more do you want from me?!?!? 😭😭😭” while The Emperor has been stuck in that fucking chair for ten thousand years. And seriously, he made them demigods; does he have to hold their hands when they get an ouchie too? Lmfao I love me some Primarchs but yeah, most of them are overgrown toddlers. Not hard to see why Big E would be less than warm to his big batch of disappointments.

[@AdeptKing]

I like how the Emperor knew that his smurf and lion were on his side despite how people feel about them. Guilliman is just that guy who wants to get crap done so it makes sense that he could come off as being a jerk or power hungry. Makes me wonder why the Lion couldn't see that considering he's similar in the sense that he wants to get stuff done and he's a bit misunderstood as well. Granted I guess the Lion isn't capable of allowing people in.

[@TehSquare]

This exchange would also explain why the Emperor in Dark Imperium just went and told Robute to go and try to fix the Imperium, he'd probably just attempt it anyway.

[@adrienwatson2179]

Guilliman makes a tonne of mistakes. All of which are done with the best of intentions. Guilliman is quite naive and noble.

[@TehSquare]

@@adrienwatson2179 In a lot of ways he and Lorgar are pretty similar in that they seek to lift people up rather than just subjugate or rule over them. Guliman seeks to do it with reason, governance, and institutions, Lorgar tried to appeal more to emotion and spirituality. Had they combined their strengths together who knows what could have resulted?

[@youtubevoice1050]

AdeptKing. The Lion isn't capable of understanding people, at all. That's his flaw. He grew up as a "wolf-child" in the wilderness.

[@Crack_the_Skye]

@@TehSquare Solid comment.

[@leowilly29]

The khan is really interesting here. Unlike other like other who were "forced" to be loyal or traitor because of their personnality( like Dorn is loyalty incarnate and the Curze or Angron were chaos since the beginning) . He was borderline, he made his choice. And he chose humanity and yelled "For the emperor " at the palace gates... Actions are above words. He proved himself a true son of the emperor and humanity.

[@Isildun9]

The Khan himself said that he sympathized with many of his traitor brothers, but he sided with the Emperor because he had sworn an oath to him first, and Jagahtai Khan is no oathbreaker. A true man of honor.

[@justinanderson2460]

To be fair, Angron was put on the path by the Eldar and the Butcher's Nails but the truth is that the Emperor could have had one of if not THE most loyal of sons in Angron if rather than teleporting his Angron away from the only family he's known and left the to die while Angron watched on helplessly, Big E had instead teleported down to the surface with some of Angron's own War Hounds and aided Angron in winning his freedom. This would have shown Angron how powerful the Emperor was, given him something to be grateful for, given Angron to see his future legion prove themselves on the field of battle and also allowed Angron to keep his family whole and providing them the much needed satisfaction of having won the victory and freedom themselves. In place of resentment and hatred, the Emperor would have instantly formed a bond of undying gratitude and loyalty in Angron, becoming a true father figure to him. Angron would be so loyal in fact that honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if Angron lost his shit and straight up murdered Horus if he'd tried to convince Angron to betray the Emperor. . Curze did what he was always intended to do and was barely Chaos at all - even at the end. If Sanguinius hadn't chosen to be vengeful in one of his few poor decisions in life and had instead dragged Konrad back to Terra and the Emperor rather than shoot him out an airlock, Curze would have been cured of his insanity by the Emperor and been able to go back to being the terrifying but still loyal space Batman he was always meant to be.

[@justinanderson2460]

@@Isildun9+ Yes the Kharn was uj doubtedlt no oathbreaker and a man of honour but it was also realistically a decision based on common sense. Follow a tyrant who, despite his often harsh means, WAS working towards a noble and even selfless goal for the betterment of all... or... literally sell your soul to the forces of Hell and become their slave for eternity.

[@psychedashell]

The problem was the Emperor had already negotiated Angron’s planet into the Imperium with some degree of independence - he couldn’t join Angron’s rebellion because he would be attacking a planet he’d accepted into the Imperium. He might have earned some trust points back if he’d rescued a handful of Angron’s comrades but looking back from the 40k era the Emperor was known for his failings.

[@N0TYALC]

This is exactly why I love the khan. He really seems like the only primarch that *chose* to remain loyal. He weighed the positives and negatives of the Emperor as a ruler, and *decided* that he was still mankind’s rightful king.

[@derrabbit7289]

Ok, now we have a solid reason why Malcador was on a knife’s edge when the Kahn wished to speak to him alone

[@justinanderson2460]

Glad I wasn't the only one who noticed this connection.

[@00yiggdrasill00]

I really dont think any of these feelings are faked. At this point in time the emperor is very human in his own way and loves his sons...and i think the biggest tragedy of the golden throne is that his humanity is likely now stripped away.

[@Eener1000]

I read the emperor loving his sons like an artist loving his creations or a car enthusiast loving his cars, not true father and son love. There is a passage in one of the Horus Heresy books where big E discusses Angron and the butcher's nails. He has Angron sedated on an operating table and discusses how the nails are slowly killing Angron and wether to remove them or not. The answer is that removing them would severely cripple him and the emperor decides to leave them since Angron would be useless otherwise. Could have been in The Emperor of Mankind and I am paraphrasing ofcourse.

[@00yiggdrasill00]

@@Eener1000 i know the talk, yeah its from MoM. Thats a book i feel does a bad job of fitting in with other portrayals of him. One thing ive found interesting though was from an interview by the author where they say what we are seeing in MoM is how other people view the emperor, and when taken from that angle its interesting to compare with other bits we know of him. Only bit that doesn't fit is that iirc that talk was with malcador, the one person who knows him best and can see through the illusions. I dunno, it just doesn't fit with the other bits we know of him. He created them so he could have left it at that, but he outright introduces himself as their father and that speaks of wanting a deeper connection with them even though he would undoubtedly fail later in that role.

[@greypilgrim228]

@@00yiggdrasill00 It's also interesting to point out that the conversation about Angron and the butchers nails was done in front of Archan Land, the tech priest responsible for finding the 'Land's Raider' STC (called the Land Raider by the Astartes, which pissed him off to no end lol). Again the Emperor is seen through Land's perspective, seeing the Emperor as a creator looking at a piece machinery he's built, and deciding not to tamper with the butchers nails or it'll render Primarch XII useless. Land clearly approves and it reinforces his beliefs in the Emperor as the Omnissiah. Again, this contrasts with Malcador's interactions with the Emperor where they refer to the Primarch's like sons. Then again, this could be yet another false face of the Emperor fooling even Malcador, since Malcador may be more fond of the Primarch's than the Emperor. In the short story with Horus, Alpharius and the Khan storming into a briefing room to talk to Malcador about one of the two lost Primarch's statues being erased from the Hall of statues (Wolf Lord Rho has a video on it), Horus refers to Malcador as 'Uncle'. Malcador does watch all the Primarch's keenly and takes a great deal of interest in their actions throughout the Great Crusade and Heresy. It's not a stretch to suggest perhaps he is their actual father, or both he and the Emperor are. The Emperor's genetic structure, heavily edited, and the psykic forces of Malcador pored into each of the 20 gestation capsules to create and bind them into human form.

[@00yiggdrasill00]

@@greypilgrim228 ah i had forgotten that. Then i think thats very much the view point we are getting. The cold behavior fits well with a techpreists vision. Taken from the angle of "observer and who is observing" is interesting.

[@ed8212]

@@greypilgrim228 that sounds cool, until you realize that the emperor is an exponentially more powerful psyker than Malcador

[@lokiorin5520]

Well clearly his fabulous Hawkboy Sanguinius is on the list of never going to fall.

[@wanttogetfood]

he was almost swindled to fall though- to save his sons from Red thirst

[@TKUltra971]

@@wanttogetfood Too bad Mangus was the one to be swindled. I really liked him too.

[@ribbitgoesthedoglastnamehe4681]

@@TKUltra971 You cant both like him and call him "Mangus".

[@NorlandKalgara]

hes typing so fast that his finger slip on the keyboard im sure

[@ribbitgoesthedoglastnamehe4681]

@@NorlandKalgara I meant GREET your brothers on Isstvan 5. GREET. Damn typo. ;-P

[@bolerobolero5668]

It's better to die for the Emperor than to live for yourself.

[@DonPetexX]

The death korps approve this comment

[@kupidz8372]

No service is worthy of mans toils unless it is for Chaos. May the Galaxy burn!

[@danishsyed1068]

Bolero Bolero for humanity and the emperor

[@magnusthered4973]

That’s only cause being dead is where you’re all heading so better for them to accept that fact and live till they die

[@justinanderson2460]

An open mind is like a fortress with it's far as unbarred and unguarded.

[@patricklioneljonson2747]

Once again another reason why I know the Dark Angles and The Lion are true loyalist to the Emperor

[@Scythe592]

I have never quite come to fully understand the reasons behind Our legion's secrecy about part of the legion turning, as a good deal of Legions were split on the issue. For example not all of Horus' sons became traitors, and not all of my beloved Angels of Death turned against the Imperium. Any guidance in this matter my Lord Lion would be appreciated. FOR THE LION! AND FOR THE EMPEROR!!!

[@thesecondprimarch7694]

Whaddup dog. You gonna wake the fuck up anytime soon

[@scatterthewinds3126]

@@Scythe592 because it is a stain upon our history.

[@TheYokoHog]

The Emperor Protects!

[@bobbysalkeld2634]

Tell that to the Thunder Warriors

[@snapperl]

This convo implies that half the primarchs falling to chaos was not to the plan as so many keep stressing.

[@the_dropbear4392]

Yeah I don't see why people think it was. The empeor was was trying to unit the galaxy, would plan to fuck it all up

[@thesmilinggun-knight9646]

The_Drop Bear what Who said that? Why the fuck would he do that it makes no logical sense for the emperor to do that

[@the_dropbear4392]

@@thesmilinggun-knight9646 looking at that i have noticed my comment made no sense. i meant to say the emperor was trying to unite the galaxy, why would he plan to fuck it all up

[@dustinbird9170]

They stress it because more recent authors have made it part of their individual interpretation/cannon. that's the problem with 40k lore, you can't hardly argue anything as THE truth, only as one of many truths

[@Bluemilk92]

Before I ever learned the lore, The White Scars were always my favorite. The weird thing is, they are the exact opposite of my first color scheme. I was introduced to 40k, through the Dawn of War games many years ago. The in-game army painter, had me design a basically pure black chapter. Deathwatch, except even more black. Once I learned of the Primarchs, I immediately latched onto the Kahn. The Mongol empire has always been my pick in historical games. I've always loved the culture. Normadic, Mongol culture is meat and dairy. No vegetables, plants are for horses, even their alcohol is make from milk (look it up). Then, as I went through the slow, brutal, almost canonical process of becoming a true chapter member, I learned the White Scars are basically considered the most forgettable legion. Who cares? White Scars are not warp-haters, they play the rule-of-cool so hard, they ride motorcycles into a sci-fi battle! They betray my natural color scheme! When you don't know anything about an army, you pick the one with your favorite colors, and the White Scars are the exact opposite. They are so awesome, they made me 180 on my ideal looking Spess Marine.

[@ed8212]

most forgettable? That's really subjective, they always struck me as unique and cool, the problem is just the lack of books about them comparatively

[@justinanderson2460]

Takes the term "Milk Drinkers" in an entirely new direction.

[@markoerakovic9899]

Alpharius/Omegon and their legion is actually still loyal in their way. They fought the Emperor in a hope to actually defeat Chaos in the long game as they are still fighting to this cause. They use brutal methods but are only traitor legion that is not corrupted by chaos(gene seed). They are a wild card even now.

[@Damo2690]

Nightlords geneseed is okay

[@FoxHound-ut1hu]

...Sure

[@gavin1506]

Iron warriors are not tainted

[@magnusthered4973]

@@Damo2690 night lords can’t be turned because they are just themselves imagine that which is why I’m scared of them more then khorne bezerkers

[@justinanderson2460]

Alpharius did this. Omegon did not. Also, night Lords Gene seed is pretty untainted as well I think.

[@Amatsaru29]

In a Malcador short story, Malcador explains to his dying apprentice that one of his many jobs is to remind Big E about the mistakes of the past.

[@christopheraaron1255]

Few who would never fall = Sanguinius, Russ, Guilliman and Dorn.

[@evf02d]

and Vulkan

[@imapleb4956]

evf02d And Lion El

[@vinayvenkatram8535]

How dare you heretics. The Lion is the most loyal of all the Primarchs. None shall have him wanting, for Loyalty is it's own reward. When the Changer of Ways literally can't think of a single thing to offer, that would even bring thoughts of turning the Lion, you know the 🦁 is an absolute.

[@snakeyman5560]

Ferrus Manus didn't die for this slander, for this lie, for this... MALARKY!

[@dustinbird9170]

Sanguinius was in massive danger of falling, he was going to to save his sons from the thirst, and if you believe the "primarchs are flesh machines powered by minor warp gods" theory, then Sanguinius is implied to have two warring gods inside him, one of which is dark and malevolent and a risk of turning to chaos

[@Jatischar]

FIRST LEGION REPRESENT! Loyalty is its own reward! For the Emperor and the Lion!

[@mrelite8519]

“I’ll have a peek across the galaxy to see what Roboutes having for lunch.” At this point in time? *Word Bearers.*

[@ribbitgoesthedoglastnamehe4681]

I wonder what creates this hate and distrust towards Guilliman. Maybe he represents those things some readers lack in themselves and secretly covet. Maybe his heritage, he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. But Guilliman is one of the least likely to rebel. Its his nature. Guilliman builds empires, he doesnt tear them down. And a civil war would be against all that he is as it would destroy his lifes work. It would happen as likely as seeing Fulgrim in public unshaven in his underwear smelling of week-old beer and sweat.

[@KossolaxtheForesworn]

maybe its because of the fucking second founding bullshit.

[@MrTrilbe]

He was the only Primarch to have an private empire, ALSO HE'S A TRAITOR, he created Imperium Secundus the instant something went wrong and did his upmost to put a puppet on the throne of it so he wouldn't get into as much trouble for it (The Lion refused outright to be Guilliman's lap dog and scapegoat), he then set himself up as head of the Imperial council, then got himself almost deaded, came back, set up his private empire again, then got made regent of the Imperium, he doesn't make Empires, he covets them, that's his human flaw write large, his desire to be in control of everything.

[@Orannis01]

@@MrTrilbe The Ultramar system was too far for Guilliman to reinforce Terra, by the time he had arrived he either two things would happen, the Emperor would have won and he wouldn't have been needed or he would have faced the victorious traitor legions who would be mopping up the last Imperial forces. Being a pragmatist Guilliman took the logical option of setting up Imperium Secundus and digging in to face the chaos legions and it paid off since his systems were attacked heavily attacked by the Alpha Legion after their fled from Terra and repelled by the defences he had put in place, ones that would have been missing had the Ultramarines rushed to Terra. The Emperor knew this, and thats why he didnt doubt Guillimens loyalty, and the Ultramar sector is one of the most prosperous and securest in the Imperium, able to defeat a Hive Fleet on their homeworld, how many other chapters can claim the same?

[@MrTrilbe]

@@Orannis01 The Blood Angels made it to Terra from the Ultramar system, we don't know what the Emp's thought of him, other than being a means to and end and allowed the Primarchs to think of Him as a Farther because it made them more loyal.

[@joanjorge566]

MrTrilbe the lion and Guilliman made sure that at least one legion could get to Terra after the warp storm broke and they decided it should have been Sanginius to make it there

[@shipmate3577]

May the Emperor bless you...

[@The8thlegionprophet]

I love that Sanguinius was never brought into question for he was the truly faithful son.

[@OculusOccluded]

Not even THE EMPEROR can comprehend the Khan. Man, that is amazing.

[@thesmilinggun-knight9646]

He said that the khan tries to seem incomprehensible

[@pascal9055]

The smiling gun-knight yeah but considering how things play out, the Emperor was definitely very wrong. Clearly there were others he should have been watching much much more closely. And for arguments’ sake, even if the Khan turned to chaos in the 42nd Millennium (seriously doubt that) the Emperor would have been better keeping an eye on certain others than the Khan.

[@bw040690]

I said the same. Almost everyone missed it. The emp basically says "I've examined the Khan, looked at him hard, sifted him and tried to know his mind and could not. He makes being unknowable a deep part of his soul".

[@noone-qe8zh]

Dont misunderstand the emperor's words when he says "two rebel Angels, his axe falls on those deserving its smile." He isnt talking about magnus and horus. The emperor just confirmed that he ordered Leman Russ to execute the primarchs of the two forgotten legions and why. I assume they refused to side with the emperor

[@hailhydra7959]

Alec Welgat It’s an interesting interpretation but it seems more likely that he’s referring to Magnus and Horus

[@thesecondprimarch7694]

Not fully correct. Not fully wrong either

[@dustinbird9170]

It's been heavily implied over the years that yes, one legion was destroyed because they were rebellious, but the other legion is always spoken of as though they simply lost their battles and were destroyed by the enemy, very likely the Rangdan

[@ianharrison5758]

From what I’ve seen, it’s likely that Leman had a hand in killing 1 of the missing primarchs, but the other seemingly fell during the rangdan Xenocides. It was confirmed that I believe the second legion fought in them(maybe the 11th, maybe they don’t specify which legion I’m not entirely sure so don’t quote me).

[@justinanderson2460]

@@dustinbird9170+ It would make more sense I think that the Rangdan managed to use their Cthulu style mind control powers to turn the legion against the others and had to be "put down" so to speak meanwhile yes, I believe that the implication was the other legion was more outright rebellious.

[@OGSpaceMarine]

Emperor: Russ will never fall Lol you really love your Primarch Rho XD

[@Tarorc79]

What more can we ask for.... Oh.. now that you ask.. Movies, tv series, animated series, more movies, more tv shows and more animated series.. ;)

[@PraetorGix]

Also a fucking mini of the Lion already FFS

[@JohnnyZenith]

Games Workshop are too cowardly to work with Hollywood etc.

[@Tarorc79]

@@JohnnyZenith There are others than Hollywood. :)

[@kelman727]

JohnnyZenith Too sensible. America will want control of everything and in perpetuity. Well, sod off.

[@alanmorales5784]

Hello Wolf! Another great video! As far as who is/was a true loyal Primarch , you need to go back and read and see which Primarchs were able to develop themselves mentally based on where they grew up and what their hardships were before ever meeting the Emperor. Some like Gulliman and Dorn ( truly the Emperors sword and shield “tools”) were great tacticians however they lack vision and are all too happy to have someone to look up to to guide where their skills need to be applied . And there are Primarchs like Angron and Curze who in their own rite of passage they’ve understood over years of being exposed to the most brutal existence where they have calculated the worth of all living things as natural selection of “the strong and crude will be the last ones standing and they will decide the shape of the future “. And the other Primarchs who are in the grey scale being a bit of both these examples like Russ and Khan and the Lion however they hold a hidden knowledge of what they personally truly feel about the Emperor and his decisions, however they remain loyal, in the words of the Lion while facing Curze “Loyalty is it’s own reward “. As far as the Malcador and Emperor conversation , it shows that no matter how much they know they still show a level of human doubt, and naturally they would doubt the Primarchs that are not easy to read or are as black and white , so it’s obvious that he would be on the fence of Khan being a Primarch who is wise as he is savage, and would not obey simply because. And how the Emperor knows the wolf being savage wolf with the loyalty of a blood hound, both wolf and hound with enough intelligence to get things done but a slow on the uptake when it refers to grater matters. Honestly I can see the Primarchs who are in danger of being full blown heretics are Gulliman and Dorn. Gulliman seems to eager to appoint Sanguinius as the new Emperor and do way with Daddy, and Dorn was such a scared butterfly inside he hid himself under all that armor that he became the best for building the greatest fortress ever...to hide , he did most things based on fear and when he got overwhelmed he acted brash and foolhardy. These two are the weakest links, that’s just my take on them.

[@By_the_gods]

God damn. Magnificent comment.

[@dommydench4693]

The Emperor: Russ turning traitor? Malcador, have you been in my liqour cabinet again?

[@monkeylugz]

Ave Dominus Nox .. great work amigo as always keep it coming !!! For the Emperor !!!

[@wolflordrho]

Thank you!

[@LetholdusKaspyr]

In "one of the few," you know he was including Dorn. Vulkan. Possibly Guilliman too. Oh, and the Archangel of Baal, obviously.

[@ribbitgoesthedoglastnamehe4681]

"Possibly Guilliman" Like, Russ might possibly like a good fight and Fulgrim might know a good perfume when he is drenched in it? That sort of "possibly"?

[@youtubevoice1050]

Everyone is always forgetting about Corvus Corax. But he doesn't complain. He simply does his duty in the shadows and is content.... as content as his brooding nature allows.

[@LetholdusKaspyr]

@@youtubevoice1050 I'm assuming that the Emperor didn't say "one of the few" and mean "about half." I wouldn't peg any of the remaining loyalists as super likely to be a traitor. I'm trying to gauge who the Emperor would judge to be a CERTAIN loyalist. On my list of "HE definitely wouldn't turn," he'd appear, but not necessarily near the top. Like Guilliman. I wouldn't suspect him of disloyalty, but Malcador seems to imply that Guilliman's weakness is ambition, and I don't disagree. He's not at the TOP of the list. And this is from someone who was considering Ultramarines as a primary army.

[@youtubevoice1050]

@Ren9077. That's what I'm saying. You wouldn't assume. However, Corvus got permission to access the geneseed project by the Emperor himself. That amount of trust puts him near the absolute top of the list, without any doubt.

[@LetholdusKaspyr]

@@youtubevoice1050 Oh, yeah, that did happen. Yeah, point made.

[@Baamthe25th]

I didn't read the books, but I watch lore videos like this, and your videos really made Jakathai waaay more interesting.

[@viewernewest]

As I recall, the emperor had returned to Terra when Alpharius was found. So he never even "met" his last son outside of the heresey.

[@dantheultimate2497]

So Horus was already Warmaster before he was found? That would mean that he was discovered only a few years before the Heresy, no wonder he turned Traitor.

[@evilwagz]

Alpharius was discovered by Horus. In one of Horus compliance wars, a band of warriors snuck on the Vengeful Spirit to try to assassinate Horus.

[@dustinbird9170]

@@evilwagz that is a single explanation of like three that alpharius/his legion give. The most recent alpha legion book combines all three stories and states that Alpharius/Omegon was actually raised on terra by the emperor, while the other one was yeeted by chaos, and was simply hidden from horus

[@mopmop9552]

To be honest, I still feel sad that the Emperor dauted Alpharius so quickly; and Omegon as well. They are at least as loyal to the Emperor as Guilliman or Corax; but they accepted, like the Emperor, that Chaos must be defeated, and chose the path they beliefed would lead to that outcome. FFS some of the Alpha Legion are propably still loyal in 40k, but can never return or fight wars in the shade as they always have. I believe would the Emperor have entrusted Alpharius with his secrets, he could have been the most valuable of his assets in the Heresy and beyond; and NOT for Horus.

[@kelman727]

Möp Möp So loyal they wanted humanity wiped out to win. Yeah.

[@mopmop9552]

@@kelman727 it was a way to defeat chaos once and for all; the other way was to let chaos win. What would ahve been the better choice in your mind? okay it was not set in stone, but very likely.

[@timothynicholson1760]

Well clearly not the best option to defeat chaos is not to fight the space wolves. The ooo are the loyal or aren’t they convo bores me cause it’s too far gone they can’t return if they were loyal so they’re pointless

[@ShadowGhost0117]

I would love if Omegon is still alive and has most of his Legion still loyal as well (yes some of the Alpha Legion have gone full traitor but probably not the majority) and is just doing the ultimate double agent.

[@justinanderson2460]

@@mopmop9552+ That was the issue though. Alpharius bought into the Kabal's idea that these were the only 2 options. Omegon did not and thus managed to nullify enough of his brother's efforts that the Traitors didn't get the win and it was just this halfway house where there's losses on both sides.

[@jmiller7068]

Vulcan, the lion and daddy D those will never fall

[@adrienwatson2179]

Of course, with Russ. I dont think Guilliman will ever fall either. Yet he will continue to do stupid shit.

[@dommydench4693]

I'd say the most pure hearted of The Primarchs. Which would be Sangunius, Corax, Vulkan and despite his bluster, Russ.

[@dommydench4693]

I'd leave out El Johnson, Dorn and Gullimen. Not because they aren't loyal as Hell but because they have an Ego at The Horus Level.

[@adrienwatson2179]

@@dommydench4693 I don't think Guilliman has THAT much of an ego. He did step out of the way for Sanguinias to become emperor. So did Lion. However, Guilliman is still unbelievably mistake ridden. You also have to remember, the Lion was born on a Chaos Death world.... constantly fighting Chaos creatures from birth and being tempted daily by their promises. He never fell. Even with Ouroboros whispering in his ear, he never batted an eye.

[@adrienwatson2179]

@@dommydench4693 Also, Sanguinius almost went over to Chaos to save his sons. If golden angel boy can contemplate Chaos... literally anyone can.

[@saltedllama2759]

In the Siege of Terra series, there are moments when Malcador has psychic conversations with The Emperor, or even dreams about it. In those visions, he is always the strong, gleaming hero and the Emperor is old and frail.

[@jackp492]

That's interesting, what the implication?

[@samuelduchesne5841]

​@@jackp492that the emperor use is magic to change people perception of him making malcador feel like a hero saving the emperium while the emperor is nothing hut a frail old man? Manipulation idk?

[@henry_illenberger]

I've got a suggesting for you Jarl. This is something I think most people (including the HH writers themselves) have forgotten, and that is: "Zahariel El'Zurias meets the Emperor." You could also use this as an excuse to talk about the compliance of Caliban, if you're interested.

[@thedevourer.]

Sea the Russ and Baldor are tied together really hope we see these two come back soon... The playing field needs leveling out too many Daemon primarchs for Girlyman to take alone

[@darkhighwayman1757]

Great vid. The more i hear about Jaghatai, the more I like him.

[@unclepaulie28]

First view & comment. For the Emperor!

[@silent_stalker3687]

2:12 “Some truths are uncomfortable without burdening others” Also him : creates a human Eldar hybrid clone just so he can revive it via Eldar stuff and to act as a means to stop Slaanesh from munching it. Just so he can confess to it and it won’t die until he’s done confessing.

[@brigandboy1425]

Having read the White Scars books, I understand exactly why the Emperor says what he says about the Khan at this moment. If the timeline is on track, the Khan isn't on Terra yet, right? So the Khan hasn't set his feet on the path to defending Terra and humanity just yet. But he will, despite his remaining hard to read.

[@Deamon93IT]

I felt Big E's sadness when he talked about Alpharius. Things could have turned out quite differently with the Alpha Legion still loyal but Alpharius trusted some Eldars instead of his father

[@gabrielm.942]

Deamon93IT what about Omegon. I really really want an Omega Legion in the 40k setting.

[@randallkoskubar2303]

Its not just that they trusted eldar, they trusted the cabal's long view, and the twins went with their gut and did what they thought big E would do with the information presented.

[@Deamon93IT]

@@randallkoskubar2303 I know, they could have talked to Big E and find a third option. As example the two could have joined Russ when he fought Horus (pretending to be part of Russ' retinue) and kill the Warmaster in case of hesitation from the Wolf Lord. That action would have ended the heresy then and there, limiting the casualties greatly and keeping Big E safe. Another occasion in which the Alpha Legion could have had a positive impact is Prospero: with some pieces of information the burning could have been prevented and all could have gone as Big E intended. This would have opened the possibility for an eternal punishment for Magnus (ie sitting on the chair for eternity, mending the damage he had caused), leaving Big E free to roam and run the Imperium. Of course both are what if scenarios but they aren't that far fetched, knowing their expertise

[@ShadowGhost0117]

I still like to think at least one of the twin Primarchs is still alive and simply have the majority of their Legion (some of the Alpha Legion has gone full on chaos but maybe only a small portion of it) doing the greatest double agent play to ever exist.

[@Quilliana]

@@Deamon93IT Ouch, that alternative makes me want a Tzeentch-victory in the Great Game, even if Big Red is an unwilling servant to him as well. I am sorry but I love Magnus and his sons too much to have him on the Golden Throne for eternity. Unless that was his choice ofc, and thinking of it he would probably have made that sacrifice. I honestly think most of the Heresy would have been avoided if Big E could just have been honest to his sons about the Chaos Gods. Then maybe only Curze and Angron would have been lost (and honestly Angron has good reason).

[@isaacjones748]

Hey Rho, I know you posted this ages ago but honestly this is my favourite reading vid you've done. I've watched it like 8 times and I don't seem to get tired of it?? It's like the combination of all the stuff we know about the lore and the Primarchs specifically with all the stuff we DON'T know, wrapped up in this little conversation gets me hyped every time. Love all your vids man, one of the few channels that deserves to be part of the notifications on gang

[@Dadecorban]

Thanks for my answering my question with this video Rho. = )

[@Skoomasanchez1]

You approach teaching 40k lore like I wish preachers and popes would approach religion, from a stance of "have you thought about it this way though?" vs "this is law and concrete and what I say blah blah". Love it

[@egziverpendlebury2431]

Lion'el johson, Magnus the red and alpharius should be called The Lion, The Wych and The Wardrobe

[@Duppyman695]

Because Alpharius is or should say was ..... in the closet !

[@magnusthered4973]

If that’s the case what would Horus be think hard

[@egziverpendlebury2431]

@@magnusthered4973 pft EZ (Spoilers for a 70 yr old book) . . . MR TUMNUS

[@magnusthered4973]

@@egziverpendlebury2431 yeah I can sort of see it

[@jintsuuanaguma782]

Absolutely loved the video, thank you. I always look forward to getting that notification when you upload. As a space wolves fan I absolutely loved the mention of Russ here and I still hold hope for his return, alongside Valdor of course.

[@wolflordrho]

Thank you :)

[@leoboxer]

I'd definitilly buy 40k audio books with your voice, even if I have them already!

[@DJDav16]

Vulkan is one of the few that the Emperor speaks of as the few who will never fall. Vulkan is arguably the most human of the primarchs in how he relates to humanity based on his homeworld’s culture, and utilizes a terrifying fury when The Imperium’s citizens are threatened. His sons in the founding legion/chapter The Salamanders are the same, unquestionably loyal to the Imperium and in particular it’s people. Vulkan had plenty of opportunities to turn but did not. Instead he journeyed to Terra through the Webway to find out how he could best serve his father’s defense. I’m curious to see how he would view the Imperium if he were to enter the current timeline alongside the Lion and Guilliman. Edit: a great video as always! I’ve been reading these books for ten years and it’s great to see your channel giving the lore such good coverage and getting the followers you deserve at the same time!

[@TKUltra971]

I like how that they say that Guiliman was the most human. That award goes to Vulcan - guy's a humanitarian primarch and his legion still takes after him til this day. That's pretty awesome.

[@Spekd]

Another one to enjoy cheers wolf!

[@christopher5723]

There's been other hints of the Emperor's continued affection for his traitor sons, in one of the books there's a reference to the Traitors statues being shrouded unlike the 2 Forgotten Primarchs whose statues were removed. As for the few who would never turn (as much as it pains me, I'm not a fan of the DA or Smurfs), Sanguinis, Dorn, The Lion, Russ, and Guilliman

[@montgumryburns4868]

Really appreciate your passion for sharing key pieces of lore.

[@brandonj804]

Keep up the good work man. You have the voice for it

[@wolflordrho]

Thanks!

[@MiddleAgedGuy73]

Just found your channel, I'm excited to see what else there is here!

[@kingbaldwiniv5409]

The 5 that will never fall away: Russ, Vulkan, Lion, Sanguinius, Dorn. Roboute is great, but he is proud of HIS empire. He can be controlled with it as the fulcrum. The Khan is obviously not one the the Emperor thought trustworthy. Corax may be trustworthy, but he is prone to depression and self-doubt. The Emperor clearly loved Vulkan and held him in great esteem. Dorn was the Emperor's right- hand man. The question is whether the Emperor understood how dearly the Lion loved his father. If he did, then the Lion is one of the five. If not, then maybe it was Roboute in his place. Sanguinius may or may not be. The is no question of the quality of the Angel, but often fathers do not see the virtue of the sons that most reflect their virtue. This is exemplified by Denethor and Faramir in the Lord of the Rings series. Great video, although I thought the book had great extras but was tedious on the whole.

[@MetalActual]

Short but incredibly insightful

[@TobeWilsonNetwork]

4:47 this is what makes Malcador the most fascinating character to me. He’s the odd one out, but he’s within the innermost circle

[@Tacoguy1000]

But Russ’s axe falls too readily these days... Isn’t that why you designed him for?

[@timothynicholson1760]

Tacoguy1000 yes it was but he needs better judgement it fell to readily upon Magnus as he was tricked by horus

[@brycemcewen6146]

@@timothynicholson1760 to be fair Russ begged Magnus to come back to tera with him to avoid having to kill him

[@Tacoguy1000]

bryce mcewen I doubt the man who whines so much about psykers would beg a psyker to come to not kill him.

[@zero5496]

And because of this things could’ve turn different if he wasn’t

[@kelman727]

Never outright seen it confirmed that the Emperor views them as his designated executioners. It seems this is merely a convenient label Russ applies to rationalise the job.

[@lordmortos979]

I'm pretty sure the Emperor knew that Skyrim belongs to the NORDS!!!

[@tibbydudeza]

Busy listening to "The Solar War" audiobook. It is coming to an end soon ... have only been waiting since "Horus Rising" was published on 25th April 2006. After reading the novel "Legion" ... Alpharius Omegon had their hearts in the right place. Dark Angels - the E missed the "Unforgiven" but knew about some of the White Scars turning to Horus.

[@MrM-jb6ps]

U hit the nail on the head with big E still Trusting Gulliman and the first he can feel it I think even over such a distance

[@dommydench4693]

I think Corax is the most loyal Primarch. He truly loves his father.

[@notribadsvault]

I wish G-man knew the Emperor did care about his sons before he became a corpse lighthouse.

[@superthrowdown1]

Awesome as always! Thanks for the upload, keep them coming :) for Russ and the Emperor!

[@wolflordrho]

Thanks!

[@superthrowdown1]

You replied, thanks so much mate. And you're very welcome, always love your vids!

[@moshdragon]

I literally cannot get enough of this channell. I need more Robute Gilliman

[@DarkSolace33]

Greetings. I have heard your plea.

[@moshdragon]

@@DarkSolace33 Just made my day. Hail the Emperor of Man

[@chrisholt3412]

One of the best videos on the lore of the HH I’ve watched so far. I remember reading that part and the connotations to the Primarchs. The Primarchs who would never betray the Emperor or the Imperium who probably, Dorn, Guilliman, The Lion, Sanguinius and Corax. If GW release another Loyal Primarch then it will be The Lion and the whole issue with the “Fallen” and Luther getting snatched from the Rock will all come out.

[@thomasplanquette424]

And Vulkan ?

[@LuisPandabmb]

This one was awesome. I actually doubted the dark angels and thought the fallen were loyal.

[@jeetsohpal557]

Awesome upload. Very well put together. The frustration for me was that a few books down the line particularly Master Of Mankind we get another more deeper look into the Emperor and his attitudes towards the Primarchs. Either there are contradictions or the emperor is pi$$ed.

[@kelman727]

Jeet Sohpal No contradiction: the Emperor appears as people will it, consciously or otherwise. By Dark Imperium this ability is long gone and he can’t cloak his true intentions. The Primarchs were mere tools. Nothing more.

[@jeetsohpal557]

kelman727 hi mate, that’s not really what I was referring to and Wolflord Rho has covered what I meant in his Master Of Mankind analysis. But you are indeed right about how people perceive the emperor.

[@rickauville3876]

It was amazing..... very heartfelt.

[@CptFoolKillah]

Excellent work brother.

[@wolflordrho]

Thanks!

[@pmk198908]

Hot take one of the ones who’d never fall was ALPHARIUS From what we know about their fall was that it was done to achieve the emperors ultimate victory. “The Alpha Legion has always, always, been for the Emperor”

[@Xenophon122088]

Awesome lore. I think that will be my next novel read, and I agree that the final Horus Heresy novel needs humanity in the Emporor's dialogue.

[@ImRoy]

You’ve been my favorite channel these past few weeks since I discovered you! Keep it up man, love this stuff

[@wolflordrho]

Thanks mate, I appreciate it!

[@williammiller4768]

What is Roboute doing? What he’s supposed to do. What he was made to do.

[@TherealSBlair]

Wonder if we might ever get a story or two about the beginning of the relationship between Malcador and The Emperor. That would be a must read to be sure.

[@jimminey-fooking-cricket4903]

After everything Vulkan has survived I would think he would be on that list.

[@plasticbudgie]

Malcador is easily in my top 5 lore characters right now. I'd love to see something deeper on the emperors emotion on his death. I feel like the emperor loved malcador as much as his sons.

[@comradecrawdaddy]

I love when the Dark Angels are held in such honor to the Emperor. I'm a Dark Angel guy.

[@TheFedaykiin]

Manus, Dorn, Russ, Lion, Robute and Vulcan are the few he speaks of imo I also believe he expected Horus, Mortarion and Fulgrim to remain loyal before the Hersey

[@Vextus]

God Emperor hold me i just found this channel and i love it already watching loads. I love these interactions so much it's helped even more with Children of the Omnissah in the background ngl it's a very soothing tune. May i be so bold ol lord and request a look into parts of talon of Horus and Black legion in the future?. My the Emperor protect

[@pStrat7]

We need this music on all Rho vids!

[@austinprince2109]

I love how the emperor does show how he does care about his sons here. Maybe his soul has shattered as time has gone on. Thus leading to the conversation between Robute and throne emperor

[@braveheart40kglasgow56]

Russ, Dorn and Vulkan. None of these Primarchs cared much for position or power. They were dutiful and honest. Russ was simply a warrior and true to his word. His chapter while ruthless bloodthirsty, also were duty bound to do the right thing. Dorn was always meant to be the last line of defence, the last man standing. Not a pinch of darkness in him, a builder for the people. Vulkan was farmer at heart, a shepherd and had so much sympathy for the weak and defenceless. Even Sangunius and Roboute were tempted by power. Had Ferrus survived, I'd have lumped him in the list

[@briharrisWarhmmer40kfan]

Wolf lord rho primarch emperor vid!!!! 😃😃😃 AAAAAAARRRGHHH!!!!! YEYYYYY!!!!

[@Pineappletaco]

You should make a video talking about how the Emperor is a gestalt being, and the Malcador is a holdover from a time before that, and related to the Emperor/Pre-Emperor.

[@emperor002002]

I would like a book on the first meeting between Malcador and The Emperor and how they forged their friendship. The misadventures of The Emperor and Malcador. 👌🏿

[@AnikaJarlsdottr]

girlyman was right to call Leman Russ one of his Dauntless Few. one of the few the Big E knew would never fall to chaos.

[@Paradise2003]

Maybe it's just me but I inferred that as Malcador saying "Gilliman is off somewhere, being Gilliman" and the Emperor puzzled "and the lion sent an army to stop him...instead of here?". Idk didn't seem like he was questioning either of them. Kinda made the over reaction to Gilliman doing what he always does a little funny.

[@porcu12345]

Pretty interesting that The Emperor calls certain Primarchs by their first names, like Alpharius, Horus and Roboute, yet calls Jaghatai simply 'The Khan'. I'm also pretty surprised at the way he referred to Magnus as being deserving of the axe... Surely he knew that Magnus was trying to warn him? Russ is back on terra, so they should all know by now that Horus was responsible for tricking Russ.

[@noone-qe8zh]

The emperor wasnt referring to magnus and horus as the ones deserving of the axe. He was talking about the primarchs of the two forgotten legions

[@lordvader1466]

Emperor Did love them,Teach Them,Give them The Whole Galaxy ,and They Betrayed him !! , And For what ?In the end For Nothing !!, Except to Become Slaves of Chaos !! ,i Remember When Reading the Horus Heresy,Emperor Given the Horus A Book ,and He Was so Happy ,and Always keep it in his Chamber During the Crusade,and Save Some of them ,If That not Love From the Emperor For them i don't know was it !!!.

[@JamieZero7]

Yea I never thought this came across as the emperor doubting guillimans loyalty. As you say he is surprised the lion doubts. I think the emperor is concerned because of the ruin storm. And that something may have happened to him. But knowing the emperor he would be proud hes building an empire making sure that what they fought for isn't lost and these are also the words he gives guillimans in 40k. When he returns.

[@hisrockinghighness]

He makes a virtue of being unknowable. I love the Khan. Another great video bro!

[@wolflordrho]

Thank you

[@hisrockinghighness]

​@@wolflordrho Wolf Lord Bro

[@Ronfost89]

Love that part of this book. Just two old pals gossiping about the kids.

[@Leptospirosi]

"Alpharius? what chances did you gave to my dream? We can feel the emperor's regret and how truly disappointed he is: he had hopes to had Apharius finally involved in his grand plan, but somehow it transpires the fact that he never was sure about Alpharius having bought it.

[@Overonator]

The Khan never liked tyrants. He has said that he thinks the Emperor a tyrant. I think he simply sided with the lesser evil, the Emperor.

[@ShadowGhost0117]

That is pretty much his exact reasoning. I’ve read his Primarch novel and he is really interesting in it. Basically he ends up going “Fuck what my brothers want me to do (and to an extent the Emperor) I’ll mostly be a loner which is doable since I can basically outrun the rest of them”.