GUILLIMAN'S BIGGEST GRUDGE AGAINST THE EMPEROR! BEGUN IN THE HERESY?

[@gwilym1991]

I feel Jaghatai was the only one with a real sense of the Emperor. Largely agreed with him but 100% knew he was an ass and not above using people, thus ended up with the most pragmatic relationship of all of them. Obviously he'd be frustrated at the lie but most likely from the sheer impracticality and consequences of it rather than a breach of trust.

[@Aleph-Noll]

hard agree. jag was the only one who really understood that the emp was just a guy( albeit immensely powerful) and leader on a fundamental level.

[@markcoroneos7811]

Greats points, completely agree with you both. I think guilliman has been coming around to that same attitude; especially since he acknowledges that now that he is in the same position the emperor was before, he understands why the emperor acted the way he did.

[@AzrealMaximus]

@@Aleph-Noll same with Corax, after the Alpha Legion raid. He knew he was of the warp

[@Anathema0420]

The Emperor wasnt as much of an ass, without him thered be no Primarchs or Astartes, only the laughter of dark gods and humankind in the throes of chaos. He understands what must be done to achieve such an endeavor as necessary, of course few understand how absolutely mad the 40k universe is or even what the emperor final want for humanity.

[@rorytolmie6504]

Too bad it'll be 10-20 years before they even reuse Jagatai for a story or "bring him back" as far as the schedule GW is going by. 1 primarch returns every like what... 8-10 years?

[@Decimus87]

For Guilliman it hasn't been 10,000 years. So for him it's still fresh, and I see Guilliman being very Human, so it makes sence for him ti be holding onto this.

[@crashingatom6755]

Well it’s not real, so….

[@dragothromak6261]

As a world eater… I sincerely feel bad for Robute… he did everything his father asked.. only to be realized that any affection was a falsehood.

[@UnRu1eD]

@@crashingatom6755 It’s our favorite Sci-fi, don’t be negative.

[@primarchxi6639]

@@dragothromak6261 Silence, you heretic! With your poisonous words you wont corrupt my Primarch brother!!

[@Andrea-fp3es]

@@crashingatom6755 what is real, tho?

[@inquisitorgarza312]

The Emperor has been suffering for the past ten thousand years both physically and spiritually as his body rots and his soul is torn and remade countless times, and he sees the decay of his Imperium of his dream turn into a living nightmare made him bitter to his sons. He probably lashed out to perhaps the first being to talk to him for the past ten thousand years because of that pain and bitterness he has experienced for the past ten thousand years of suffering, but as seen in God’s Blight he truly does loves his sons and after seeing his son struggle to keep the Imperium alive he probably was moved that Guilliman still fight for mankind even in this low state of religious zeal and superstitious.

[@reddragon4482]

Tbh he was a failure of a father. Maybe a living god and a visionary but he failed his sons and lied to them from the start. Whether people say it was to protect them or not is irrelevant, he still lied to them and when you lie to someone they won't trust you and will turn from you.

[@christopheraaron1255]

I'm still not convinced that Emperor as loving father isn't just an act. I think when he spoke to Land about the Greek gods, that was exactly right.

[@reddragon4482]

@@christopheraaron1255 He sees his own sons as a means to an end. He's like a psychopath.

[@codycurtin2295]

800000000% back this comment. The Emperor returning to a sense of lucidity as his essence coalesced for that second to banish Mortarion was incredibly moving. People love to say that the Emperor is uncaring and using his sons as tools but I think this thinking is anti-human to a fault. Human beings are complex, there is no white-black dichotomy, ESPECIALLY when it comes to the Emperor who is all aspects of humanity in one being (look at Saturnine and Fury of Magnus). The Emperor does believe his sons to be tools for conquest, but he also loves them as any father can. He makes mistakes, the problem is his mistakes have galactic consequences. We believe because he has such immense power he must be able to comprehend his own actions before he makes them but this is false also. He is the most powerful being to ever form from the ether, but he is fallible as any man. He may be a god, but he is still human, and that's what makes his ascension even more terrifying to think about.

[@UnRu1eD]

The Emperor proved he Loved Guilliman when he cried out to him. “Father, Help me save them!”

[@jonathanmalone1943]

I think in Dark Imperium there might be a mirror between Guilliman and the Emperor and Guilliman and Maneus Calgar. In the book Dark Imperium it repeatedly talks about how Calgar feels simultaneously overshadowed and treated callously by Guilliman, who appears to have so much on his mind that he doesn't notice, even if others like the new Tetrarch Felix do. "Being careless with the feelings of his Firstborn". Felix (its either him or Calgar) also expresses disappointment in Guilliman as well, but for an entirely different reason: Guilliman had to use the same political ploys to rebuild Greater Ultramar that he would have done, the same mortal tricks of deceit, dissembling, posturing, etc that define such things. He expected the Primarch to be above it, to not need such methods. So too may Guilliman have expected the Emperor to be above lies.

[@MrFredstt]

This is perfect. I do think one of the reasons for Big E being kind of cold towards his son is for the exact same reasons Calgar described about Guilliman. Too much on his mind, too much far reaching plans and future goals that he lost sight of the emotional needs of his sons

[@mongoliandude]

Really great theory, much enjoyed 👌🏾

[@archmageeldran2567]

The disappointment, then, stemmed not from the fact that Guilliman was capable of such behaviour, and indeed seemed completely at ease with it, but that it was necessary he should have to exert his right to his power. From the Dark Imperium book regarding that scene and it seems more to me that Calgar is angry that Guilliman is just not obeyed as is his right but needs to use underhand politics and posturing to get what he needs.

[@UnRu1eD]

Calgar as badass as he is, he needs to piss off with that “Self Loathing” fuckery. Guilliman was in Stasis for what? M31.121? Almost 11,000 Fucking years? And Expects the one who has seen their Empire crumble into a Political murderistic cultists? Atop of all of that, the only ones he trust in his circle especially are the Likes of Belasarius Cawl.

[@Channel-23s]

Ehh he’s human and must play and beat the rivals at there own game and do it quickly while fighting and running the Imperium vs so many foes/enemies ready to destroy the Imperium

[@chriscabbage1019]

It's not 10,000 years to Gulliman. It was practically yesterday. Love the vid as always 👍

[@Peter-by3ox]

Great point

[@blackhelmetnova7753]

At this point Guilliman doesn’t even consider the Emperor his “father” anymore. Sure it’s his gene sire, but Roboute has stated that Konor was his real father. Maybe that’s a little harsh, but after coming back 10,000 later to a cold uncaring god that uses you like a tool, well maybe Guilliman has some justification for his feelings towards his father. Now recent books have had the Emperor manifest and maybe we’ll get some reconciliation between the two (maybe like a warp projection of the Emperor that could finally just talk to his son) but for now Roboute is left alone with his bitter thoughts and feelings. You know, all the good stuff we love to see Guy Haley write about for him.

[@licensed_beheader]

Well he should suck it up , the primarchs' pettiness is mostly the reason the imperium had become a shitfest. He should try getting strapped on a torture chair while being badly injured and having said chair literally drain his soul so it can power some galactic light house . Excuse the emperor for being grumpy he should be thankful the emperor hasn't gone batshit insane from all the torture .

[@henryviiifake8244]

Nothing harsh about it. The Primarchs were always just tools to the Emperor, it's just that he can no longer put up the pretense of caring post-heresy.

[@licensed_beheader]

@@henryviiifake8244 Tools and sons too .

[@MrFredstt]

I really really love Guy Haley's Roboute writing. He fleshes out the character so well and makes the primarch a really interesting character

[@beardfistthegoldenone7273]

@@MrFredstt As a staunch ULTRAFAN (pre Matt Ward) Guy Haley has done wonders turning RoBoT GiRlYMaN into a very interesting and sympathetic character. Seen the ULTRAHATE slowly seeping away out of the community. Thank God, sick of blueberry jokes. No more ULTRA-DEPPRESSION!

[@Timasion]

I think the warp is just one issue of many. Remember, Roboute was not happy with the Imperium to begin with. He unhappy with how it was managed by Malcador and, indirectly, by the Emperor. He was displeased with being used to raze Monarchia. Remember, Malcador questioned his loyalty. Even the Lion had questions about Roboute's loyalty. I think Roboute had his doubts prior to the Heresy and now his questions are becoming full bloom.

[@timothylyons5686]

Jaghatai always said the Emperor was a tyrant, just the alternative was much worse.

[@KaiserAfini]

Yep, a tyrant that would send his murder hounds or psycho batmen if you made him mad. Normally he would send his army to impose his way by force, plus only some legions would build upon conquered worlds (ultramarines and word bearers) and many more would leave horror in their wake (world eaters, night lords, iron warriors, etc). The way he behaved due to his rushed schedule was like a war god staking claim to the defeated.

[@licensed_beheader]

@@KaiserAfini He was an end justify the means kind of guy . I think at some point he was a more reasonable guy but from his constant warring with galactic horrors and seeing humanity shoot itself in the foot or other depressing stuff probably wore his emotions and humanity down . For him humanity was a fire that must burn bright at all costs to the point hes willing to throw millions of humans into the fire on a whim to keep it bright . But when warring with horrors such as chaos there will be blood spilled that of innocents and guilty alike. The whole thing is just sad .

[@Subject_Keter]

Frankly I think by time he could act, he didnt have enough time to do his plans and he needed it to all work out.

[@Blank--zg7uk]

@@KaiserAfini to be fair it’s hard to reclaim planets who possibly have tech and decent army to beat the solar guard. So space marines usually get the job done by murdering the shit out of the opposing force into submission

[@northernsupernova1]

"So I fight for a Father who I never loved, against a brother that I did. I defend an empire that never wanted me against an army that would have taken me in a heartbeat." Jaghatai Kahn

[@andrewniehoff8612]

Malcador: We could not tell you, the risk would be too great. Primarchs looking out window as siege: Good job.

[@Stewiehleba]

Maybe it could've turned out worse?

[@andrewniehoff8612]

@@Stewiehleba Possibly, but I think the Emperor and Malcador may be too certain of themselves. The Emperor assumed that they would be corrupted if they knew of Chaos and while some were, others were not. Vulkan was not even tempted and the Khan knew better from the get-go. I think the problem was that the Emperor never trusted anyone except himself and possibly Malcador. He had an "I and I alone can do this" mentality and assumed anyone who was not himself would be corrupted by the knowledge of Chaos. So perhaps the greatest contributing factor of all to the whole mess was his pride.

[@daniels7907]

Not telling the Primarchs the truth resulted in the loss of half them to the Ruinous Powers. Guilliman awoke 10,000 years later to find the Imperium on the edge of destruction by Chaos Gods that he didn't even know about until the Heresy. Which, from his perspective, wasn't that long ago. Now he has to make war to save the Imperium from an enemy he was underinformed about.

[@licensed_beheader]

Guilliman needs to get his head together because we've seen with Horus chaos capitalises on doubts, regrets and frustrations to the maximum levels . They may not necessarily corrupt him but they may use this emotions to misguid or ensnare and destroy him . Kairos fateweaver literally used this to imprison him imagine what Tzeentch himself could do with this .

[@minhducnguyen9276]

A great strategist, a befitting champions of Tzeench. A shame he doesn't have any psychic talent though and Tzeench already has Magnus.

[@MrJara1018]

Guilliman had such a great relationship with Konor I am certain that kind hampers Guilliman’s relationship with Big E. If you think about it who actually has a great relationship with Big E? I imagine it’s only the Custodies and Dorn.

[@ryansauchuk7290]

Malcador

[@MrJara1018]

@@ryansauchuk7290 how could I forget ? Yup best bros 4 life.

[@licensed_beheader]

Pretty sure corax and Horus before his corruption had a solid relationship.

[@Sealdeam]

Probably part of the reason why things reached this point is because even when their relationship was at its best he was not one of the preferred sons, he fits into that middle son role and I think he felt even back then he was been taken for granted, not to the same degree as Perturabo but this was when the whole dream and a possibility of a future after war was still alive; the lies, his own death and after much hardship and effort been received by a thing incapable of anything resembling a warm feeling can only elevate Konor so much more in Guilliman's mind and heart.

[@KaiserAfini]

"Silent until 10 000 years later" Ummm, Lord Inquisitor Hector Rex holds the title of *Auditori Imperator* because he is one of the few people who the Emperor spoke to directly in those 10 millenia, so there are more sources.

[@codycurtin2295]

As with all 40k lore, hearsay.

[@Subject_Keter]

Big E: "Poo Poo Pee Pee! Why cant you idiots listen to M E!"

[@KaiserAfini]

@@codycurtin2295 The Inquisition has a lot more political backstabbing than normal, Hector Rex felt tbat during the Vrax campaign. Claiming such a title would make his rivals dig into the truth, since such bold claims (talking directly to the deity and claiming to use a nemesis weapon he personally blessed) would make him a false chosen, a heretic.

[@ragingmoderate6791]

So listening to Master of Mankind for the second time I genuinely believe the instances of Big E treating the primarchs or talking about them like they are merely tools is simply for the benefit of the other characters he is interacting with. Like when Arkhan Land is talking to the Emperor over Angrons body, he is constantly remarking how dispassionate the emperor is. I feel like this is an affectation because he is talking to someone from the Mechanicum who expects him to behave like that, he doesn't want to risk losing the mechanicums power by appearing human. Similar to whenever he is talking to Ra in the visions, the Custodes believe they are his true "children" and they fight harder because of it, the Emperor doesn't want the custodes to believe he cares for anyone besides them. Which he clearly does because he is greatly hurt over the losses the 10,000 have suffered in the war for the web way. He even takes time to show Ra his plans and spend time one on one with him before imprisoning Drak'nien in him. He could have easily ordered the custodes to accept his love of the Primarchs, but merely found it easier to "play pretend". This isn't to say that he was a good father, he wasn't, nor that he loved them all equally, he didn't. Angron not being tossed into a star is also evidence of this, he already killed two primarchs, or imprisoned one or both, the war hounds were better off without Angron in all honesty so him keeping him in my opinion is nothing more than sentimentality. Also even if GW came out tomorrow and said the cold uncaring emperor was Canon I would ignore it because it's just grim derp for the sake of it.

[@cousinzeke4888]

I despise the way he's being written these days. He doesn't work as a flawed, nearly incompetent human.

[@steeletaylor8079]

@@cousinzeke4888 yeah, he's meant to be a god, not an incompetent boy...

[@ianharrison5758]

@@cousinzeke4888 I understand GW couldn’t give less of a fuck abt making the lore a consistent story arc, but if there is one character that the needs to be written consistently it’s the emperor. The unreliable narrator aspect of the lore, where what’s truth and what’s not is up to your interpretation is one my favorite parts of 40k, but using that concept on the emperor is stupid as fuck. Sure, leave his motivations, knowledge and long term goals ambiguous. That’s fine, but his capabilities and common sense level should remain the same regardless of the circumstances. We’re supposed to believe the emperor is almost single handedly carrying humanity in a universe full eldrich abominations and catastrophic xeno fuckery, but he wasn’t smart enough to remove some fucking nails out of angrons head. Or fix Konrads sanity. Or tell his sons about the webway project. Or be honest about the imperial truth. Or not humble his religious zealot of a son Lorgar when he knew damn well he’d run straight to the arms of chaos. It’s hard to see the emperor as anything more than an OP try hard who tried to play 5d chess with a gang of malicious sentient concepts and got dunked on hard for it

[@Judge_of_Anubis05]

Guilliman has always been my favorite primarch and now that the Emperor lies are being more and more revealed to Guilliman he now has the potential to become more than the weapon the Emperor designed. That said the Emperor still did have god reason not to say anything on what the warp really represents. Emps was in a bad spot from the start.

[@ianharrison5758]

For all the talk about the emperors mistakes, his flaws and his downright stupid decisions, I feel like his perspective isn’t talked about enough. The emperor has been alive since the dawn of human civilization. For nearly 40,000 years, the emperor has guided, protected and safeguarded mankind from the warp, and xeno threats we can’t even begin to imagine. He alone was mankind’s safety net. The only one truly capable of seeing the scope and depth of his plans, of his motivations. For tens of thousands of years, the emperor guided mankind from the shadows, only revealing himself after mankind fell from its zenith and was fractured and assaulted by horrors we can only dream of. His enemies were numerous and powerful. Capable of ripping secrets from the minds not designed by his own hand to be incapable of betraying him. He walked on a razor thin line to a new golden age, but failure costing the collective soul of humanity to dark, thirsting gods. He was under more pressure than any being in existence. He had more responsibility, more weight to carry than anyone else. He had to make decisions no one else could understand, do things no other could justify. He made many mistakes I believe he shouldn’t have, but I think it would be unfair to say he should have just been open with his secrets given the consequences of his plans being leaked to chaos .

[@justadogobeingdogo5766]

There’s another thing we need to remember, Guilliman was the one primarch who was planning on what would be done *after* the great crusade. For the Imperium, for his sons, and for his brothers but, now that is all a shattered dream never to truly be. I believe that Guilliman is hurt by this the most because he feels if he and his brothers were warned about the dangers of the warp, then maybe the Heresy could have been prevented. But now his family much like the imperium is broken possibly beyond true repair.

[@coolguymccainn7125]

Dorn had plans for after the heresy

[@C0ldIron]

The more I see the more it seems like The Lion is the one who knew. He is naturally secretive and aloof. Not only him but his legion was full of specialized groups who were charged with important information only to be used in specific situations. It might have also been why he was the most like his father shouldering burdens to shield his brothers.

[@jonathanmalone1943]

I dont know if he was told, but Im sure between the Watchers and the Knights of Lupus he would have begun to figure it out. He had more hints than most as to the true nature of the galaxy right in front of him. I wouldn't be surprised if he arrived separately at the same conclusion as the Emperor: no one can know.

[@stephenbrenchley8104]

I agree, The Lion had access to some seriously powerful dark age weaponry, including the remaining men of iron. With that and his innate resistance to the machinations of chaos he's surely the most likely to have have been told.

[@comradealex85]

As Guilliman lay bleeding on the deck of Pride of the Emperor he said to himself "Father... This is all your bloody fault... It's not heresy if I'm dying?" *Muffled voices* get him to the stasis pod now! "Oh shit..." thought Guilliman

[@MrGlobbits]

The EMps did seem like a bit of a d, but I dunno....I think time was also against him. The heresy started long before some say he knew it would, so he had not the time to be all nicey nicey. Although some of them did spend at least some time with him, Magnus and Alpharius/Omegon. With that in mind, it's to their credit the Primarchs that remained loyal and did not throw their toys out of their pram because daddy didn't tuck them in at night.

[@thatotherguy8138]

Dorn would feel a great deal of resentment if he didn't have the explanation from Malcador - he would feel that he was hamstrung by lack of knowledge, and his defenses were not adequate because of it. That if he had known more about Chaos, he could have prepared a better defense, and perhaps it would have gone well enough that they could have defeated Horus without Sanguinius dying and the Emperor being entombed on the Throne. The longer he was active, the more resentment he would feel. Hell, I wouldn't even be surprised if Dorn ends up returning to the Lore by way of someone going outside of the current Imperium and finding a "new" imperium set up somewhere. Something he started to get his mind off of what happened at Terra, as a side-project, and one thing led to another and with the Imperium thinking he was dead, no one was out looking for him so no messages got to him, and he just plain lost himself in his new project for 10,000 years. Probably with a lot of unknown Chaos activity to keep him occupied with research and testing ("Will THIS hamper Chaos better than THAT? Hmm, we need to run 500 tests to be sure."). Vulkan wouldn't feel resentment, just disappointment that the Emperor didn't trust him with this knowledge, instead choosing to have Vulkan create a Doomsday Weapon, and Jaghatai probably would just shrug it off and likely believe that there is far, far more that the Emperor hid from his "sons".

[@ragingmoderate6791]

Dude Dorn is totally Tyberos the Red Wake. He went a little crazy after the chaos attack where he lost his hand. Explains why Tyberos is so huge and has the fucked up face. This is not something I believe by the way I just like posting it because some people get butthurt when you have off the wall theories about primarchs.

[@OljeiKhan]

@@ragingmoderate6791 but what if he's Omegon?

[@ragingmoderate6791]

@@OljeiKhan well omegon was killed by Dorn so maybe he is alpharius

[@ragingmoderate6791]

@@OljeiKhan wait I see what you mean, Dorn was actually killed by Omegon on Pluto and Omegon is so good at the disguise game he took Dorns place in front of everyone including other Imperial Fists, then later it was Omegon who lost his hand and became Tyberos...boom Tyberos is Omegon confirmed. This is actually funny to me and I think I'm going to spread this ridiculous theory around.

[@OljeiKhan]

@@ragingmoderate6791 BAZINGA

[@sreed16]

Guilliman hasn’t been away from the Emperor for 10,000 years. To him it’s only been a short time.

[@Deamon93IT]

Well the whole idea of the Imperial Truth was to starve the Warp by throwing it under the rug. Still, Big E made a mistake here by not telling Magnus and not train him personally. After all, without Magnus the Chaos Gods would have had a much harder time, notwithstanding that uncle Malcador could have still been around without the need to sit on the Golden Throne (after all Magnus was meant to do just that)

[@steeletaylor8079]

Yup!

[@UltimateDeliciousPie]

A part of me does think the Emperor should of said something, I mean Fulgrim did kind of walk into a Slaneeshi Snake orgy planet with zero clue on what the hell was going on and then proceed to take a demonic sword. I'm not asking for a Grange HIll "Just say no" but at least some health and safety brief about the warp.

[@Duppyman695]

You said it, 'Chaos worshiping Snake people with Daemon blades'.... a heads up would of been nice!

[@Subject_Keter]

"Oh hey the snakes literally orgied to death... OOO a sweet sword and... just perfect!" Atleast tell them "Let the normals see if we can safely use it, xeno tech and all that."

[@minhducnguyen9276]

Roboute Gulliman: "Everyone stay quiet! I'm receiving a message from the Emperor" Emperor (establishing psychic link to Gulliman): "Common Robby *burp* you..you gotta take my sword Robby *burp* and go on crusade and..and kill heretics and and the xenos. It's gonna be great Robby *burp* just you and me ..." Rouboute Gulliman *convulsing on ther ground*

[@jjsheets330]

Were the two lost primarchs told the truth about the warp and that led to their destruction? Would make sense that’s why the emperor kept the warp a secret from the rest of them because it cost him those two.

[@MrGlobbits]

Whatever the truth about those 2, I hope it's eventually revealed.

[@Duppyman695]

A solid theory , maybe they knew of the warp and it corrupted them? Maybe they learned the truth and like a disease it can be contagious and spread, The Emperor could of killed the 2nd and the 11th to stop that from happening?

[@icklemoo]

we dont know if they were destroyed / imprisoned / lost .... its implied in custodes codex that there is a secret person held since the crusade area in a the custodes dungeon .... the number matches one of the missing legions ... I hope they dont ever write clarification on it as it was great with it open , being able to make own chapter/legion in game.. though you would think that it couldn't have been as bad what horus/lorgar did with the heresy and ripping the imperium in two .. so kinda weird none of the deamon Primarchs talk about It freely now

[@Duppyman695]

@@icklemoo A really good point, why don't the Daemon Primarchs talk about the 2nd and 11th? but I think your right better left as a mystery.

[@jjsheets330]

@@icklemoo Malcador and the Emperor wiped their minds of the lost primarchs

[@Subject_Keter]

Idk why but i am picturing the Eastside Steve video on the SCP "Cargo Ship" and the anamolies that made time go fast or slow and their reactions when they finally reached the other side.

[@Duppyman695]

I always see an element of "Daddy is too busy with his work" with most of The Primarchs but considering his work was The Great Crusade and the survival of the human race, seems selfish!

[@henryviiifake8244]

Is a child "selfish" for not understanding what their parents put themselves through on their behalf? _Especially_ when, in this case, they I) refuse to explain and ii) have already killed two of their siblings for a reason that - once again - is never explained? 🤔

[@themachine7534]

The great crusade was just one step , his next project was moving the human race into the webway and kill all psykers so chaos would starve and die

[@themachine7534]

The wholething wasabout saving humanity .. primarchs and the space marines were just a small step that once used would be discarded .

[@OljeiKhan]

@@themachine7534 The Emp wouldn't be stupid enough to declare war on MILLIONS of Great Crusade Era Astartes dispersed around an entire galaxy each sporting their own fuck-off hyuge fortified defensive positions. He killed the Thunder Warriors because they lacked discipline (more violent than a blood angel more war crimy than a night lord) and weren't suited for conquest in space. The Primarchs and the Legions would be peacekeepers and governors within the Galaxy.

[@themachine7534]

@@OljeiKhan the custodes were created as a magic eraser intentionally better than anything that came after . in my opinion the emperor can see the future can see the steps to get there and beat chaos the legions wouldve had a civil war as malcador said himself he and the emperor planned as such or big e saw it in the future .. same difference .. and the custodes wouldve killed the rest and mopped up like mount ararat and the thunder legions just bigger scale . I think the greatest tragidy of 40k is that the emperors plan will forever be stuck on that stepping stone of primarchs and transhumans ... just food for thought my g ✌🏻

[@cheeseburger12]

I think there is also still resentment over razing Logar's city too. In his own primarch book it was still weighing on him. And he was determined to preserve that dead civilization and then it ended up breaking his heart as well.

[@Wylding756]

I think the problem with Guilliman is that part of him now forever belongs to The Eldar.

[@clementbianchini8651]

I wonder if Guilliman might be a better ruler for the Imperium than the Emperor himself

[@77RJ777]

You look at the way Ultramar is run vs the rest of the Imperium and I'd say it's almost beyond doubt.

[@harvestblades]

As a 44 yo father to nine kids & having had our first at 19 & our ninth at 39 including five sons from our second oldest to our youngest I can sympathize with both the emperor & primaries as it is a story as old as time. As a young father we wish to protect our children & desire our sons to grow up & avoid the painful lessons we had to learn & maybe literally barely survived as well as wanting them to be better men, husbands, & fathers than we are or at the least not repeat our mistakes or near mistakes as young fathers & husbands. Sometimes what we thought was the best path as young fathers we can look back at as we mature, gain wisdom & realize the mistakes they were or how we could of handled X situation better. From the Primarchs in 31k we see truly teenage boys as they think they know it all or know better than their father who only a couple years earlier were as gods to them. These teen boys as they try to become their own men can go many routes and rebellion in some form is very common, & it is only with age & the wisdom that comes with experience will these older primarchs realize that their fathers even if he is the Emperor of Mankind is still only "human" & isn't infallible but was simply doing what he thought was best for them & humanity & clearly his ego may have clouded those decisions. It is then that the primarchs can respect, understand, & even love their father for who he is warts & all. There are so many great basic human lessons we can see reflected in the Grim Dark when told by the better storytellers & writers.

[@shiverman8]

Guilliman thinks he could have strategically or administratively worked around the warp if he knew about it, but ironically he may be the perfect primarch to fight it. His legion has the least corruption after all.

[@colin4685]

Vulkan defended Terra also don't forget. Also he's probably the most trusted considering he has the doomsday device for the imperium.

[@joejoeyjoejoejoseph]

It’s a basic sibling thing. In a time of crisis on the home front secrets get shared with those present. Things were crazy at home and Father needed us, you weren’t there. Guilliman will probably always be salty about it.

[@GrumbleGrimbus]

Perhaps he feels if he was taught about or studied the warp, he might have been able to find a way to bypass the ruin storm sooner, thus potentially preventing the death of Sanguinius and the Emperor being put on the throne?

[@jeffersonhenrichs3362]

I'd say the ones you could count on to catch on and keep carrying on would be Dorn, Johnson, Manus, and Khan. They seemed to take their role and duty more seriously than personal agency.

[@OEFarredondo]

Feels like Malcador just told us the missing primarchs fate. They would have studied it to master it. They fell to chaos.

[@lockiet7227]

The only thing I learned from 40k is that people lack emotional maturity and parental skills which fucked everything up. True to life

[@lockiet7227]

@Greasy brownie New lesson for us all that daddy issues don't just affect the girls but the boys too

[@beardfistthegoldenone7273]

My parents were wonderful, my favorite legion and primarch is ultras. Coincidence? I think not.. >.>

[@lockiet7227]

@@beardfistthegoldenone7273 do you have siblings?

[@beardfistthegoldenone7273]

@@lockiet7227 I do indeed.

[@ohamatchhams]

@@lockiet7227 Warhammer 40K is basically the progenitor and British's Nottingham tabletop-settings, genderbend version Madoka Magica but earlier, edgier and even more ridiculous subversive yet unsubtle 80s/90s mishmash tropefests Oddly enough a Chinese gacha game which inspired by Madoka Magica (and Evangelion) and predecessor to Genshin Impact, which is Honkai Impact but instead of Testosterone-ridden with Primarchs, it's Estrogen-ridden with Valkyries that can destroys cities

[@Codietall1]

I genuinely thought i had a this video on half speed.

[@the36lessons11]

I mean it's really like a scenario where you enter a coma, come back to your parent's house to see it dilapidated and filled with stupid roommates, with your father bed-ridden, neglected, and senile. It would break your heart and anger you because it would seem like the great memories were yesterday and not years and years ago.

[@ZombieCSSTutorials]

I see it as part of his nature. The other 3 primarchs have their quirks, flaws, but they knew their place and were unquestionably loyal to the Emperor. Guilliman is unquestionably loyal to the *Imperium*, and that's pretty much shown in the Imperium Secondus arc, other primarchs were at best very uncomfortable continuing on without the Emperor, Guilliman pretty much accepted it right away, taking de-facto command with Sanguinius as figurehead. Right after his father died, he took it upon himself to author the Codex Astartes, and split the legions into chapters. And it's happening again, only this time he blames his father for how things turned out, here he is again giving himself command. Even if he was the best person for the job, this is out of order, deep down he does not see himself on equal footing to the other primarchs.

[@jasonusborne8629]

Read the first page of Constantin Valdor, observe the dialoge between the Emperor and Valdor. It would be nice to know why the Emperor withheld that information.

[@Hartwig870]

Whats with the 75% replay speed on your videos? Trying to pad length or something?

[@pat0652]

A simple one might be that it is in his nature to plan and prepare...that was his purpose, so his frustration would be keen at not being told because he could not plan for it. Knowing would have been aligned with his purpose.

[@Blank--zg7uk]

Hmmm a thought The emperor knowing that calling his sons tool would motivate him. Just the angry type of motivation

[@theodorwilliam6943]

Perhaps this is why Guilliman had a sense if sympathy for Curze; they were both faced with a truth that they didn’t have the answers to.

[@korona3103]

I think put simply the reason is Lorgar and how lies and truth shaped their interactions

[@macshadow1150]

In my opinion, the greatest grudge against his Father may be Monarchia. Because if Lorgar was not broken, Chaos wouldn't even have crack to swallow half of the Legions

[@Marcusjnmc]

iirc, Erebus & others had already cultivated seeds of chaos worship before the destruction of Monarchia in worlds taken by the Word Bearers

[@macshadow1150]

@@Marcusjnmc Doesnt matter, without Primarch on top, most of Word Bearers would stay loyal

[@Marcusjnmc]

@@macshadow1150 the cracks would still be there, Erebus, already corrupt from before Monarchia, still would have successfully turned Horus later on , & Lorgar really didn't take much convincing to start worshipping Chaos either , so no Monarchia hardly guaranteed he'd stay loyal. Though Roboute wouldn't know any of that.

[@chromacypher8409]

He held Sanguinius in such esteem. If Guillaman was told of his acceptance of the reason, he too should understand. Just my 2 cents as a Blood Angels player.

[@eichler721]

Great stuff and I think Guilliman will move past it given the new lore of the Plague War and the Emperor saving him he just hasn't had time to process everything and deal with it.

[@TheLH86]

What if at the end of the day it's simple hubris? What if old Rowboats ego is gnawing at him, in how HE specifically wasn't trusted, or how its an imagined slight that despite his intellect and relative mastery of his domain, the Emperor still didn't trust him enough. Does he even know none of them were trusted enough or is that even enough to assuage his wounded pride?

[@LoFi_Sinner95]

I'm relatively new to the 40k universe as far as the books go. Is the Lion alive??

[@Palemagpie]

"sup tool" "....sup spermbank"

[@killerbean359]

Guilliman is more human than another primarch.

[@louisoost121]

i love how G man feels. i can for sure see my self in that situation.

[@Frosty7575]

Emperor: I am going to harness the power of the warp to make some superhumans, they will be so closely tied to the powers of the warp that some of them will even be able to use the warp nearly as easily as breathing and all of them psychic in at least some small way. Also the Emperor: The warp is too dangerous to give even a basic understanding to my superhuman "sons" whom I supposedly trust above all others! If they found out anything about it surely it would destroy them, good thing I kept them all separate from such danger.

[@steeletaylor8079]

Games workshop summed up

[@djolds1]

Guilliman seems primed to fall... the next Demon-Prince of Chaos? A fall intense enough to wake and rejuvenate the living corpse upon the throne?

[@Xivvx]

The Emperor never trusted the primarchs, even the ones who stayed loyal. It's pr9bably that lack of trust that cheeses Robiute.

[@ThePathStrider]

He had no more trust in his sons as a craftsman has in the various tools he creates. The Primarchs who tolerated this mindset, even if they didn't agree with it, were the ones who remained loyal.

[@markrtoffeeman]

This is HERESY Rho !!! Gulliman is his father's son. This was how Horus fell to Chaos. Whispers in the dark. Claims against The Emperor made. Led to damnation.

[@nickmangold2393]

So both The Lion and Russ are "naturally" resistant to the warp

[@xzenitramx666]

Grudges are a way to chaos

[@TheKnivingComplex]

The Inquisition are taking notes ;p

[@UnRu1eD]

It all comes down to Erebus, Typhus, and Magnus honestly.

[@sintaribat9350]

Seems like rowboat is a teenager now

[@Kristian.B.Kristiansen]

Without being near the Emperor, Without bathing in his overwhelming psyker-reinforced chrisma it became easier for each Primarch to criticise and question the Emperor. When they found evidence of the Emperor's many lies and cut corners, they had no choice but to reevaluate their "father".

[@licensed_beheader]

Psychic shenanigans aside , some primarchs like Horus had extreme superiority complex it's just that he was good at hiding it , before his campaign at ullanor he literally referred to himself as a god among men . That combined with the fact he was raised in the gangs of cthonia and we all know gangs are rife with civil wars and usurping the existing gang bosses should the opportunity arise . He only responded to the emperor because of the obvious gap in power between them and when chaos offered him power that could bring him to the emperor's level (or so he thought), the fear of the emperor's power was removed , there were obviously other factors but I believe this was the one of the main ones that led him to instigate the heresy , his points and justifications for starting the whole thing were very weak almost like he needed an excuse to justify his mad attempt at seizing power and control, even the Khan and Perturabo called him out for it .Kor phaeron even told lorgar all primarchs especially Horus were very prideful and too ambitious for their own good a lesson they all learned the hard way .

[@mn46842]

Yea if he could have been told that he would definitely feel alittle better but I think they all would still be annoyed but take one look at the other primarchs how many would have been lost if they tried to learn about the warp the emperor wouldn’t have been able to tell them all and if u pick and choose your already dividing the primarchs into sides. My biggest pet peeves besides this question is why did he feel that angron and curze could be saved or find a place in the imperium they were both driven mad. Also not sure how much time passed but obviously lorgar wasn’t going to stop believing in the divine after his censorship. His legion should have been wiped out when the emperor had them on their knees.

[@Erebdai]

We need either the Lion or the wolf to get Girly man to stop QQing in the forums. The Emprah has been busy doing important emprah stuff. He didn’t have the energy left to coddle his sons anymore.

[@nil981]

Why does Guilliman look like a grimdark Mr. Incredible in the thumbnail?

[@Freyafanboy90]

I have a feeling the Emperor didn't tell his sons as he was trying to protect them. Guilliman having that grudge is understandable but ultimately The Emperor had his reasons. It's natural to bear a grudge but I believe that The Emperor really does care for his sons, I mean he summoned all his power to just speak to Guillimen and he gave Guilliman his sword. If the Primarches were a tool he would rely orders through a proxy. He probably got the answer when talking to the Emperor and the grudge was he wasn't told sooner but now he will see his fathers work done. I guess he wants to make his father proud.

[@murraybartlett4571]

Seems to me Guilliman sees himself on a higher level to his brothers, and the grudge comes more from the feeling of Malcador basically telling him, he wasn't good enough to know the truth. At least that might be how Guilliman sees it. The other brothers seem to be able accept the fact they weren't told to protect them from themselves basically, yet not Guilliman.

[@oldeskul]

I think all of the loyalist primarchs resent the Emperor to some degree. I think during the Horus Heresy, Lion El'Johnson, Sanguinius and Jaghatai were probably the ones that Horus tried to convince to join him, and they probably strongly considered it, but when faced, in their own opinions, and mine, with two evils, they chose the lesser.

[@rbjensen530]

Sorry, this may sound like a harsh question, but why do you speak in 0.5x speed? I think it may put off a lot of viewers

[@Eraphion]

I played it at 1,25x at that was fine

[@rbjensen530]

@@Eraphion 1.5x was fine for me, question remains the same. It's only meant as constructive criticism

[@OljeiKhan]

He puts 3 images in a video and talks at half time. He's milking watchtime. He doesn't need to do that as he could be so much better if he just didn't do that. But he does.

[@rbjensen530]

@@OljeiKhan Ofc, but milking watchtime is worthless without a solid viewerbase

[@OljeiKhan]

@@rbjensen530 i bet he would have more than double his current watchers if he just didn't speak in ultraslow motion.

[@yvanpajevic9680]

Trying to protect someone by keeping them in the dark never works....

[@johnnieschatz693]

The EMPEROR of Mankind doesn't love Robute gulieman or his smurfs..

[@Ranar0k]

The others have had 10000 years to come to terms. It's still pretty fresh for Guilliman. That I think is part of it... Edit: Someone said it right b4 I added my message... lol

[@Blank--zg7uk]

The primarchs were great beings of immense power But still very human so is the emperor Now imagine how the emperor likes his coffee and also imagine that since technically this in the future that means the emperor went through the 2000 like us. 2022 Emperor of mankind sipping coffee at a star bucks.

[@christopheraaron1255]

The best comparison is Kurze... come on!

[@adfury]

A grudge? Sure, but he's still loyal.

[@nofuxgivens2797]

He didn't create sons to love. He created them to help him and humanity. But he did love them and showed them humanity. There are a lot of things as a parents we shield children from that we feel are not ready for...in regards to the warp and his webway project, imagine the emperor is trying to prep, bake, grill, saute, boil, fry and serve the biggest dinner he's ever made but only had pre school to 1st graders to help him...you're going to tell them to set the tables and hope they don't break anything or leave boogers on the fine China...but of course as the emperor is setting out food in his serving trays, bowls and tables....some of his hungry lil goblin kids try to sneak some pastries and drinks. Some kids are monkey see monkey do, some are snitches, some try to act in dads place handing out slaps and body slams....now theres a mess of wasted food and broken glass/porcelain. Some are have sugar rush tweaker fits, some are crying, some are trying to pick up broken glass by hand, ones clothes are stained red from bunch and at least one is going to need stitches.

[@andrewniehoff8612]

It could be argued that the Emperor saw the Primarchs as dogs. That is not meant to be an insult; allow me to explain. You can have affection for you dog, even love it, but you are never equals and if need be, you can and will sacrifice your dog, or put it down if you have too. I, at times, lean more towards the Emperor seeing them as tools, but this is another way to explain his behavior. That, or he was simply written by several people, each with their own theory on how he saw them and that is why he seems to contradict himself in various books.

[@randyping6036]

I'm rooting for the big blueberry to take over.

[@mnkbat1198]

To me, it makes sense why the Emperor never told them about chaos. How can he trust them with such knowledge when they were stolen by chais in infancy? They were grown men by the time he found them. Ofcourse he wasn't going to start playing daddy by that time nor revealing his plans to them. They could have been corrupted by chaos already just awaiting to strike. Guilliman is just spoiled too by his upbringing. I don't blame the Emperor at all.

[@yvanpajevic9680]

"Of course he wasn't going to start playing daddy by that time" WRONG! The big E DID play daddy! He gave his sons incredible power and authority right off the bat! If he didn't want to give them special treatment, he should have drafted them into his legions just like every other Astartes. From there, the Primarchs could have earned their power and authority.

[@btawesome98]

I think one of the only primachs to know how Girlyman feels about this secret being hidden is ironically Lorgar

[@Dadecorban]

Robot has his own opinions on his father. I know to a Russ fanboy, this looks like a grudge 😁🤷🏼

[@Keeping_It_Kyle]

If I wasn’t so lazy I’d read the essays in the comment section💀💀😭😂

[@jasonlewis4569]

For a primarch meant to see the bigger picture, he's rather narrow minded on the subject. But then it is a lot easier to see the flaws in other people than it is to see your own

[@thecommisarstabwound1287]

"Bequeefed"

[@nofuxgivens2797]

Heresy Detected

[@arionofotherworld]

I suspect the Emperor would have been happier to see Dorn or Sanguinius return. I sometimes think The Emperor had intended for Guilliman, as the 'rival' empire builder, to be the leader of the Heresy, rather than his favoured son Horus.

[@repdeath93]

I’m pretty sure the khan says the emperor was right not telling anyone

[@fdsa1981]

GUILLIMAN HERESY COMING SOON!

[@jasonjin5253]

As guilleman said konor was his true father this corpse emperor is but a lie … he is a power and can save humanity but the true dream of humanity is to go beyond these worthless gods just as the emperor said

[@charlesanthony6368]

epic daddy issues

[@ВладиславМатвейчук]

It's as if we're talking about a child, not about a Lord of five hundred worlds...

[@RobouteGuilliman-M41]

Konor is Roboute's father, not the Corpse Emperor. Konor taught him how to be something the Corpse Emperor could not, because he isn't one: a REAL man. He's frustrated, because the man that called himself his father was nothing but a big, fat liar, and if he wasn't such a liar, trillions of people would still be alive, and he would still have most, if not all of his brothers. You can try to put it on him, and say he's wrong for having feelings, all you want.

[@Julius55555]

Sounds like heresy to me!

[@Tacoguy1000]

With everything going on, it looks more like he's the one that'd hurled them in said fate.

[@henryviiifake8244]

@@moreplease998 And yet it was the Emperor's direct actions and decisions that drove the Primarchs in the directions they took, leading to the Heresy and subsequent slow collapse of the Imperium. Who else got _any_ kind of explanation aside from Jagathi, Rogal and Sanguinius?

[@RobouteGuilliman-M41]

@@Julius55555 then you'd better consult with your local Tech Priest, and get a hearing aid.

[@RobouteGuilliman-M41]

@@moreplease998 no, he was not justified, including "technically". The Corpse Emperor is a tyrant. The only thing he cares about is the attainment of personal power. He does not care about Humanity; if he did, Humanity would not be in the state of perpetual slavery and torture, in which it exists, now. How many countless trillions of people are dead, because of him? How many entire civilizations have been wiped out, because they refused the bend the knee, and become his slaves? The Corpse Emperor is a scumbag, and a liar. He spreads his garbage about an imperial truth - which he knows is not true - and then makes a deal with the utterly malignant beings of the Primordial Annihilator. Why did he make that deal? For the betterment of Humanity? Certainly not. He did it, so he could have more power, and be a bigger tyrant. The Corpse Emperor is a Techno Barbarian, through and through. Just like the rest of them.

[@GhstTwnzFnst]

Robute is a petulant child, he wasn't favored by the emperor, he wasn't with the emperor as long as others, he sees these things as slights against him taken everything personally. Dorn was the Pretorian of Terra, Russ the Emperor's Executioner, Sanguinius was loved by all their brothers, and it goes on from there. Aside from loyalty on the surface, what did Robute offer, what specialty did he have? Good at pushing paper, but aside from bureaucracy, absolutely nothing. He's a traitor plain and simple, Imperium Secundus, seizing power from Dorn by force, seizing Terra from it's rightful rulers (regardless of what they did or didn't do, still rightful rulers), introducing Primaris and allowing Cawl to experiment and maintain AI. AND! The worst thing, allowing the church to continue to subjugate and abuse the populace.

[@charliehill7076]

A ultramarine opinion of Guiliman . In every g.w book I read . The problem emperor had with Guiliman is he always thought he was correct . As in both times Terra was in danger . Guiliman put ultramar first . The we always right is the ultramarine flaw . Both times they felt ultramar come first . During the heresy he left his empire far to late . He did same in 13th great crusade .

[@kelman727]

I don’t think you paid very much attention.

[@OljeiKhan]

What do you mean he left his empire far too late? The Ultramarines and the Dark Angels assaulted the Alpha Legion blockade within a path in the Ruinstorm. That's how Sanguinius and his legion were able to make it to Terra. Guilliman's actions within the New Imperium might have been the single biggest factor in preventing an actual Chaos victory.

[@charliehill7076]

He didn't try to leave for years . Same book . Also that's what emperor told him to his face . Also emperor said to malcador Guiliman to busy taking care of his empire . He was and did . Both times he was needed on Terra . Dark emperium book Fulgram tell Guiliman the same thing . Like it's in almost every book about Guiliman. He cared more about his own empire . So he didn't try to go to Terra just assumed emp was dead . An sense he believes he always right . Started a whole other empire . That part was clearly in g.w books . Yet y'all choose to play dumb .

[@charliehill7076]

@@OljeiKhan like after calth Guiliman did not go to Terra . After dark angels came to ultra mar Guiliman did not go to Terra . After blood angels came . Guiliman did not go to Terra . Why? Cause when they tried to get through the ruine storm you know what happened? They did . Yet for years Guiliman sat in ultramar and believed he was right that emp was dead . An did not go to Terra or even try for years . After 13th great crusade it was not Guiliman who saved Terra when the storm hit . It was the emperial fist . Also g.w told me that . So where are y'all getting your so called facts ?

[@Subject_Keter]

@@charliehill7076 They got blown there and took all 3 fighting to break through and hole the line for Blood Angels to get through and the storm was created there to lock off the biggest Legion from fighting back.

[@CrispinBac0n]

first

[@blackbuddha9997]

Hail the Emperor. Excellent ruler,godlike leader, conqueror of galaxies. But not even the GOD EMPEROR HIMSELF, can master the chaotic discipline of “ PARENTING”! 🫡