Word of Faith Scriptures Exposed - Reviewing Prooftexts

[@oneknb]

While in the mission field isolated in the bush of Africa in 2012, I was having a pity party (depressed missing my kids in USA). But when I went to go lay down to rest, the Lord told me to receive 2 village women at my gate. Well, long and short of it, I had absolutely no "faith" stance of my own, I was weak and depleted myself; however, those ladies requested I go pray for one's daughter who was on her deathbed (hadn't eaten for days, not speaking, not awakening). My interpreter and I went and I obeyed the promptings of the Spirit and the woman awoke and spoke... NOT anything to do with MY faith level or religious prowess; I simply obeyed God and saw the power of HIS Name affect a woman at HIS time. That cured me of all the hyper activity and faulty beliefs by which I previously had been too often disappointed.

[@rammy3550]

@@oneknb this is a common misconception with Word of Faith. We don’t claim that God cannot move apart from someone’s faith. We saw Jesus do this multiple times throughout his ministry. He is a God of Miracles. However, what we believe is that if you stand on the promises of God, he is faithful to perform what he said he would. The question is, did ANYONE in the Bible not get healed or delivered when they came to Jesus in faith? No, he responded to their faith EVERY TIME. Whose faith healed the woman with the issue of blood? HER faith. To be clear, it’s not faith in one’s own faith. It’s faith that God can and WILL do what he has said.

[@4thfrom7]

This is a perfect story/place to share it. Thank you for the encouragement.

[@oneknb]

@@rammy3550 Respectfully, what about situations like WakeUpOlive and others whereby the believers are insisting by declaring and proclaiming -- having faith that God can and will heal someone or raise the dead -- yet somehow it doesn't happen?

[@rammy3550]

@@oneknb I’m not going to pretend that I or anyone has all the answers to all of life’s difficult questions or situations. I think it would be foolish of me to speak definitively on a situation like that without evidence. However, I would posit that in Olive’s case it would require more than just “faith.” What I mean by that is, we know that there are varying gifts of the Spirit (1 cor 12). We know that there are those who have been given the gift of faith, to another the gift of miracles, to another the gift of healing. Meaning, these are all separate gifts or “functions” for lack of a better word. In Olive’s case, she had died in her sleep. I would argue that it would’ve required a special gift of *miracles* to raise her from the dead. Meaning, one person, sent by God to work a miracle to raise her. Of course this would beg the question, “well then why didn’t God do that?” and again I would answer, “I don’t know.” The same reason I don’t know why Jesus skipped all of the other sick/lame people by the pool of Bethesda (John 5) to only heal that one man (which sounds like what you were able to experience in your original post I.e. God calling you to one specific situation). The point is this, not even Jesus went around using all the gifts ALL the time to accomplish healings/miracles. Now, some people got healed in spite of themselves, Praise God! But others were healed because they understood the power of faith in God for themselves or on behalf of others (see the Roman centurion Matt 8) because they understood the authority of Gods word. That’s what I seek to convey with the message of Faith. Don’t wait for a miracle, that doesn’t always happen. However, believe Jesus has purchased healing for you on the cross (1 Peter 2 v 24)

[@FlowerPower-r8h]

​@@rammy3550 truth. It is fairh in God's word.

[@EllenSmyth]

Heb 11:3. I do not take it that it was God's faith that created the universe but rather our faith that we UNDERSTAND that he did create the universe. "By faith we understand."

[@ninjason57]

That's also how I understood it.

[@timj1470]

I totally agree, the context is clear.

[@redrider5832]

This is so good. I was taught to understand my authority, implying that ppl can do miracles without realizing that it’s in accordance to our relationship to Jesus. So if I just know who “I” am then I should see miracles. It’s not about me but about Him. ❤️‍🔥❤️‍🔥❤️‍🔥

[@e.m.8094]

As someone who left the word of faith church almost 20 years ago, I'm super excited for this!

[@laurens8623]

Is charis bible school word of faith

[@e.m.8094]

​@@laurens8623I'm not familiar with that school.

[@e.m.8094]

@@laurens8623 Okay, I looked it up and saw that it's joined to the ministry of Andrew Wommack. Many years ago it didn't seem as though he affiliated much with the WOF movement, but in more recent years it appears that he's entered that circle, often as a guest speaker.

[@sla1xyz]

@@e.m.8094 on other videos about WOF, he is included as a WOF teacher.

[@Leadeshipcoach]

First let me say I appreciate this discussion. With that said. I just listened to the explanation of Matthew 17:20….and I found it wanting. Now let me say I am not word of faith…I was word of faith for the first 10 years of my Christian life and as I. began to study the history, languages and culture of scripture I move completely away from word of faith. With that said to interpret the Matthew 17 passage and faith as "I believe and trust in Jesus …no matter the outcome’ is the meaning of faith…that goes against what Jesus himself said in this context. In vs. 19 the disciples ask "why could we not cast it out" - the disciple were looking for a specific outcome…to cast out the spirit. Jesus answer as to why they could not cast out the spirit is " Because of your unbelief". In context Jesus tells them that the reason the outcome was denied was because of their lack of faith/unbelief. Specifically their lack of faith denied them the outcome expected. Jesus did not say "well it’s okay fellas-as long as you trust no matter the outcome you’re good" Again I don’t hold to word of faith theology -but the explanation given here ignores the context of what Jesus says. Clearly based on Jesus words, they could not achieve the outcome desired (casting out the demons, which was part of what Jesus sent them out to do) because of the lack of faith/unbelief on the part of the disciples.

[@DarylWood-bi7hb]

Spot on!

[@DarylWood-bi7hb]

As a 1980 Rhema graduate, I'll offer several thoughts. First, I loved your emphasis on faith being birthed out of a place of relationship with the Father. This fundamental and essential truth does seem to be deficient (or even nonexistent, in some instances) in the Word of Faith movement, at large. I wish to build on a point that you guys were touching. As a son of my Father, submitted to Him, yielded to, and walking in the light and in the truth to the extent that He has made it known to me, He has delegated a great deal of authority and freedom to me. This liberty gives me great boldness to declare things that many would suppose to be presumptuous. But, to me this flows out of my understanding of what Jesus said about speaking to the mountain to be cast into the sea, and it obeying me. I'm His son, representing Him, and therefore I am preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, which involves His manifest presence now.

[@davidwireback8621]

Having listen to Rod Saunders critique the guest here on an earlier video. It seems like the guest has now focused on relationship where he did not do so before.

[@RachelRamey]

That sounds a lot like what Stenhammar and Rowntree said, about being an echo and/or ambassador of God.

[@lmorter7867]

Only God has the power to create something by His Word. We can't speak something into existence. However, the tongue does have the power to speak life which is goodness, godliness, holiness. It can also speak the opposite, death, which is evil, ungodliness, unholiness. I think the meaning of this verse has been blown away out of proportion.

[@davidwireback8621]

I like the fact that you pointed out the effects of positive words and negative words. And that we cannot actually create anything.

[@JosephLapmardo]

No, the power of life and death in the tongue means human relationships are built or destroyed by our words to others.

[@pembertonjones8135]

You command what you've been given authority over by God and you pray (ask) for things you have not been given authority over by God.

[@leahwilliams3618]

Faith is surrendering my will to what God determines is good for me. My faith is in God and the relationship he has with me.

[@stevewayne1359]

Please explain Heb 11.1 then

[@ILovePs3723]

I am really looking forward to this broadcast. I was born again over 45 years ago into this sect of Christianity. And though I am truly grateful that it compelled me to search the scriptures, memorize them, pray them, and learn about the Lord through them. I am also regretful that I was also oftentimes taught to misappropriate many of them for self-centered desires and passions, which tended to make me prideful because I knew how to get what I wanted from God. I repented of that years ago, while thankfully holding on to the love of His Word. I hope that Dr. Stenhammar focuses some time on explaining the context of the scripture passage that seems to be the foundation upon which word and faith teaching is based--that being Mark 11:22, 23 and its related cross-referenced fig tree, mulberry tree and mountain moving scriptures.

[@katieevie9854]

Thank you thank you thank you remnant for doing WOF. I was born again in a WoF church, the pastor was a fabulous preacher, a humble godly man. But he was greatly influenced by WOF. Sadly the spirit of fear that was brought up in this discussion, is something that I experienced early on when around my friends who were WOF. I quickly discerned it was no different to the folk religions and superstitions I had experienced before. The saddest bit about WOF community is the lack of authenticity, being honest about difficulties was an obstacle to ‘faith’.

[@oneknb]

I appreciated the discussion on WoF teaching. Though I was born-again via a Foursquare Church family when I was 20yo, it wasn't until decades later that I got off the rollercoaster of faith teachings within it. There was a stance of "victorious Christian", "if you have enough faith", "if you tithe and obey..."; well, having had all my ducks in a row to the best of my earnest, genuine abilities, nonetheless I suffered what could be termed a "Job experience" -- even more than once! Yet, due to the dynamic reality of God's saving grace in my life having taken me out of darkness into His marvelous light initially, my hope and trust continued to be in God being God.

[@nataliedyer1819]

well said this makes so much sense to me. many "job" experiences. been quite a journey - still is. Keep me in your prayers:)

[@oneknb]

@@nataliedyer1819 in my prayers.

[@nataliedyer1819]

@@oneknb THANK YOU!

[@rebeccamatteson9643]

This is so good as I find myself needing to disentangle from WoF assumptions/interpretations. It’s not all wrong. So I appreciate this perspective from Continuationists.

[@sharonmcneill2521]

That was very good! It really gave me a lot to think about. As someone who has become reformed in my thinking and in my theology, I am enjoying the place where the Lord has brought me. I am experiencing and expanding outside the box, so to speak, and allowing myself to look more closely into things I may have considered to be heretical not all that long ago. Very thankful to have found your channel. I enjoy your messages very much!

[@Ruby-wise]

TY. It’s so refreshing to hear/see someone who has knows that whole “ faith” system; is honest and transparent and has broken free and is willing to speak out!

[@righteousrebelmedia5934]

We must remember…. Just because people abuse scripture, doesn’t mean you throw all teachings and scripture surrounding the subject.

[@withorwithoutu100]

..."and these signs will follow those who believe, they will lay hands on the sick and they will recover."

[@chris20874]

Just in case anybody wants to say that the end of Mark 16 was added ok... "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father." ~John 14:12. That says everyone who believes in Him. That is the condition of this verse believing in Jesus. Also don't make the mistake I did for years. He was talking to His disciples but He didn't say "you" like He did so many times as in referring to them...He specifically said, "he who believes in Me".

[@gracebright1388]

I think word of faith movement has a lot of miracles because at least people are acting out what Jesus told us to do - “to heal the sick, cast out devil, preach the gospel and raise the dead”. If we try to have the perfect theology, but not do anything, no miracle will occur.

[@mrs.tucson2103]

I never saw or heard of anyone casting out a demon in the Word of Faith church I went to in Mesa, AZ for twenty years. On the contrary they mocked us for needing it in our family. We heard about it through other online ministries.

[@brittjudd9106]

Great dialogue! I always appreciate Dr. Stenhammer’s point of view and scholarly work coming from the inside of the movement and correcting his theological stance. It takes a lot of courage to speak out against errors and abuses of something you were once completely sold out to.

[@MariaWahlfeldt]

Great program! Always a blessing to listen to knowledgable Mikael Stenhammar.

[@Marcus-x5v]

Amazing show, interesting topic and a great preacher and theologian Stenhammar! at Liberating faith

[@Stevetherock]

What is scary is that faith as a force is taught in Albert Pike's Morals and Dogma. It's also taught in other occult writings. In Word of Faith, you become the master and God becomes your servant. This is pantheism. God, like the universe, becomes a force that you can tap into and master to become the god of your own reality.

[@mrs.tucson2103]

I believe that many in this movement are completely demonized.

[@FlowerPower-r8h]

Wrong. They do not believe they become God.

[@wisesolutionministries]

Delegated authority or manifest authority. Delegated authority is like I have the key to open all locks. Manifest authority is we need God to show up at each lock. Jesus never separated himself from His gifts If we had delegated authority we could clean out all the hospitals of the sick rather than wait from the Spirit for the gift of faith

[@JesusFaithJourney]

This is soooo helpful to some of us that have experience in these WOF circles. I find it hard to even understand what they are trying to say when quoting scripture. I appreciate it because it helps me "see" these verses how they are interpreting them.

[@pembertonjones8135]

I believe God is very secure in His position no matter what anyone could accomplish by faith. It isn't a threat.

[@davidwireback8621]

Here’s a question to all the commenters. Do you know the difference between Kenneth Hagen’s teachings on the word of faith and Kenneth Copeland and the other prosperity teachings on Word of faith. They are world apart. Copeland and the other teachers instead of using these concepts taught by Hagin , they have taken and twisted them in their manipulation to get people to give them money. Prosperity is not having a mansion three cars two pools etc.

[@eddiesprain8243]

kenneth hagin and kenneth copeland were ministry partners pretty regularly. They both have powerful teachings.

[@nataliedyer1819]

@@eddiesprain8243 I do not see that in Kenneth Copeland. He comes across to me "poseessed" I don't know for sure but watch mike winger's video on Copeland is a thought. I don't like to judge anyone's heart or ministry and struggle with true discernment.

[@MariaWahlfeldt-u2s]

Mikael Stenhammar is amazing!! Check out Liberating Faith. Such a man of Faith.

[@tonygrainge316]

I believe most the teachings from word of faith. It’s very frustrating hearing people talking about what the word of faith believe when you misinterpret and misunderstand what word of faith teaching is It would be helpful if you had a word of faith teacher on to discuss differences

[@freedomramage5241]

Did you just miss all the disclaimers at the beginning?

[@e.m.8094]

I was in the word of faith movement for approximately 10 years. I honestly can't think of one actual scholarly theologian in that movement.

[@tonygrainge316]

@@freedomramage5241 I did yeah

[@kevinevans8892]

​@@e.m.8094I don't believe there are any biblical scholars or theologians in the word faith camp because when one takes the time to thoroughly study the Bible you won't become a word faither

[@FlowerPower-r8h]

​@@kevinevans8892word of faith is just believing what the bible says is true and living it.

[@bc4yt]

Found your podcast through your Heiser interview, now subscribed. Really solid content 👍

[@maxpalmer8172]

If faith is only relational, then couldn't we assume it couldn't be "used" separate from love? However, Paul says "if you have faith to move mountains but not love..." He sort of objectifies it in that verse in a way that is not just a relational description

[@IanTate-zm6dm]

This was extremely interesting and "particular". What I felt like after listening to this was that if I don't get at least a dozen or more issues exactly correct......it ain't gonna happen!! I was raised by perfectionistic/OCD parents, so I'm sure that affected the way I heard it! Blessings to all!

[@hughtrail143]

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God- the day I heard the gospel and by hearing believed and received Jesus Christ. Having then received the gospel of grace and of the gift of God's righteousness the measure of faith.. such is my every portion and very lot ~ the fullness of God's goodness in Christ Jesus

[@Oscar.Carmona]

Uh? By faith --> we understand Not by faith he created... 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

[@FJ-rh6io]

Loll that bit about the cessationist conference at the very end there cracked me up. Pay twice as much to hear about all the things God is not doing, how about that.

[@CarlixtaMercedes]

it's significant how we stumble over these biblical principles because of our presuppositions. But, I appreciate you all "working" through them. elevating ourselves to equality with God seems to be at the "root" of the problem and at the same time acknowledging the New Creation creates a seemingly paradox.

[@Leadeshipcoach]

Mikael talks about how the word he spoke was like a prayer. That is how Sharyn Dowd (Prayer, Power, and the Problem of Suffering: Mark 11:22-25 in the Context of Markan Theology (Society of Biblical Literature Dissertation Series) see Mark 11:23- it is a prayer. A good example of this is Numbers 6:22-27. The priest ate to speak the blessing over the people of Israel (vss.24-26) but vs. 27 makes it clear that it is the Lord who will bless the. While they priest ‘"speak a word over them" it is treated as a prayer that God answers.

[@Leadeshipcoach]

Also in terms of a lack of faith keeping people from receiving God’s promise. We have to keep in mind Numbers 13 and 14 -Israel was kept out of the land for 40 years because of their lack of faith/trust in God.

[@DarylWood-bi7hb]

Yes, brother! In fact, their unbelief was equated with disobedience and outright rejection of God (Num. 14:11, Heb. 4). Unbelief = Unpersuadable. It's in a whole different category than merely having small faith, or having doubt.

[@Leadeshipcoach]

@@DarylWood-bi7hb … Yes. and faith cannot also mean faithfulness or loyalty or allegiance to God, to his way and will… which Israel in the wilderness did not demonstrate. Hebrews 4:2 states that “….the word they heard did not profit them not being mixed with faith in those who heard it” Again because of a lack of faith/ trust/confidence which manifest itself in loyal obedience Israel was kept out of the Land for 40 years. It is interesting also that God said of Caleb “but my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit/mindset with him and has followed me fully him will I bring into the land and his seed shall possess it”( Numbers 14:24) We see Caleb’s spirit/mindset in 13:30 “Let us go up at once and possess it for we are well able to overcome it” ( and see 14:6-9). Here his faith/confidence in the Lord is expressed in words. I don’t think Calen was making a confession of faith as defined in word of faith. However what he uttered expressed his faith, and his complete submission to and identification with God’s will.

[@annaboshier6680]

Wow this video was soooo good! Love it so much. Word of faith can easily and subtly creep in… and this video is soo helpful to clarify things. One thing I’d add on the mountain into the ocean section - Mike Winger has a very awesome video on this topic which was quite eye opening talking about how now Jesus has come there is a change in HOW to pray - instead of going to the temple or praying towards the temple you can now have faith in God anywhere and amazing things can happen. His video is called “a serious study of the best name it and claim it verse ever” and the thumb nail has a picture of Kenneth Copeland saying how correct is Kenneth Copeland. Great video!!

[@mrs.tucson2103]

I'll check it out! Copeland is so creepy and that's my biggest problem with this movement, no one that is a leader in it calls him out? Thank you!

[@stevewayne1359]

Very good video and some very good points made. Before I say anything else I must state I am NOT a supporter of the "word of faith" movement nor an apologist for it, having come out of it myself many years ago. One thing I believe you guys need to do is to NOT focus on one single verse at the expense of ignoring all others. @13:36 you make a statements that the WOF movement teaches "faith" is something that God used to create the universe by his Words (and on that point, have any of you considered that at the time God spoke the universe into existence, there was NO physical realm (as He was busy creating it) therefore His Words were and can only be "spiritual" at their core) and that we are therefore also able to use this "faith" in our "words". You then go on to "debunk" this. However, please explain what Jesus said in Mark 11:23 where He clearly says exactly what you are attempting to debunk? You also make assertions about what faith is or isn't , apparently ignoring what Hebrews 11:1 clearly states it is? Personally, I think the issue with the WOF teachings is that they (taken to the extremes) makes US "god" (and some sort of "superman/Supergirl) with the Lord at our beck and call to get us what we want when we want it. I believe that happens when motives/attitudes are unchecked and wrong, not necessarily because the core teachings are wrong as it can and does happen in every denomination. IMHO there are far more scriptures in the Bible that directly address what faith is and how we are to "use it" that support the CORE WOF teachings on what faith is than there are to support what you guys are saying. James tells us in Jam1:6 to use faith, in Jam 4:3 he explains that the reason we DONT get our requests answered is because we ask amiss with wrong attitudes/motives ... which is exactly what I believe the issue with the WOF teachings are, they are prone to putting one in that exact position because everything is focused on what we can get in the physical realm today "from" Christianity/God. That position (putting us first and what we want etc. first) is untenable and will always lead to "destruction" no matter whether core teachings are correct or not. That heart attitude is one that Lucifer had/has and what caused his downfall in the first place. That "position" is a core attitude/heart problem regardless of denomination or doctrinal beliefs. Paul however gives us a perfect "balance checker" in 1 Cor 13 ... love must be our motive and the driving force behind whatever we do and based on my own experience in the WOF churches since 1981, that is the one thing that is totally lacking, its all about "me me me, what can I get for me me me"

[@FlowerPower-r8h]

The word of faith group and its interpretation are not a monolithic group. We all don't think we are gods.

[@Leadeshipcoach]

One of the best works I have read on Mark 11:22-24 as well as the problem of suffering is the dissertation by Sharyn Echols Dowd entitled "Prayer, Power, and the Problem of Suffering: Mark 11:22-25 in the Context of Markan Theology (Society of Biblical Literature Dissertation Series)" She does a great job surveying what was said up until that time about Mark 11:22-24 as well juxtaposing it to the scriptures dealing with sufferings in the context of Mark.

[@mayapowers712]

Love this...God does not need us to do miracles! It takes eyes off the person...which has been so destructive in this movement with people being put on pedestals for their 'special anointing or faith levels' diverting glory from God to the conduit of his power.

[@davidwireback8621]

I heard a story about Kenneth Hagin That he tells. That when he was a young Passover church. He told his wife one night do not cook dinner for me I’m going to be in the church praying. And he was going to pray and until he got an answer. This describes the attitude and determination that we should have and following after God and seeking what he wants to have done. he was seeking God in prayer and he was fasting in a sense not going to have dinner until he got an answer.

[@pembertonjones8135]

But isn't "leaning" on God, "trusting" and "having faith"? Are we just playing with words to make us feel better?

[@Susan-zk7ne]

I think they are saying that it is not an intellectual stance but a surrender to God and being led by the Holy Spirit. these are 2 different things.

[@pembertonjones8135]

@@Susan-zk7ne Gentle pushback: But he said when he doesn't have faith, he leans, if I remember correctly, which I heard others say. But leaning on God requires faith in God. We are full circle back to faith. There is a concept I call the " application of faith". It suggests that it is not a matter of having faith in general for everything, but our ability for lack of a better word to apply faith to various situations. We may both have applied our God-given faith to eternal salvation in Christ but maybe one of us couldn't apply that same measure of faith to heal a headache in 30 minutes. We develop the application of our faith in more and more aspects of life over time. Faith in essence "takes territory" in our lives as we practice it. And practice often involves failure, but we keep going.

[@laurens8623]

Hi guys. Norway 🇳🇴

[@DarylWood-bi7hb]

As to definitions, you all defined faith as a confidence in God's goodness and character. In a universal sense, I agree. Yet, when it comes to a specifically desired thing, or outcome, this definition seems to align more with hope, to me. Hope, being a generalized sense that things will work out well, because of God's goodness; faith being a focused confidence regarding a specific promise of God, and in which, trust for that very specific, desired outcome is anchored.

[@e.m.8094]

One thing that I noticed after leaving the word of faith is that they will often use an ENGLISH translation word for word as if THAT is the only way to interpret the scripture at hand. They will seek out different translations to best back up their previously formed idea of what they WANT the word to say. Completely leaving out cultural considerations, the original Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic, and the context in which it was written. One great example of that is 2 Corinthians 8:9.

[@e.m.8094]

They also had a very low view of seminary, often calling it "cemetery" implying that many of those who studied at such institutions didn't have the LIVING spiritual life that those at the church did.

[@Susan-zk7ne]

@@e.m.8094 That was because most of the WOF people grew up in churches with seminary trained pastors who did not believe in the Charisma of God or a real relationship with God through the Holy Spirit . They may have believed intellectually but a lot of time did not. But there was no power in the church. It was just a religious social club. There are plenty of churches like that today even.

[@kevinevans8892]

​@@Susan-zk7nethere has to be balance. The Bible commands us to love the Lord with all our hearts, soul, strength and MIND. God does not place premium on ignorance

[@laurens8623]

Awesome. Thanks Mikael. Blessings from Norway 🇳🇴

[@voiceofthefathertv]

3rd year Rhema graduate and word of faith minister here.. and Im sorry but this whole video was a straw man inside of an echo chamber. You made the comment that not all WOF beleive these things but then proceed to lump them all together into the same boat of misrepresented teaching (I could easily do the same with the AOG). After all the videos you guys have done it is about time you have someone on to the affirmative of Word Of Faith that ALSO disagrees with these teachings as they were presented. Would love to share my thoughts on the matter. Love you guys.

[@rammy3550]

I can’t speak for the second half of the video but you are 💯 correct as far as the first 30 minutes. This individual was not the “expert” that should’ve been brought on to discuss these issues/scriptures. A very unfortunate representation of the WoF beliefs

[@adrianstorm474]

Genuinely curious!…would you be willing to point out the verses/views in this video that you differ from? I live in a WoF dense area, and what is mentioned in the video coincides with the general believes held by what is taught and caught in the area. Now!…I know WoF is a spectrum, and I likely live amongst those who are on a far side of the spectrum i.e. sermons are very self-centered, belief in manipulating metaphysics, faith is a tool (for material blessing), blessings and promises taught in lieu of the Gospel. I’m not a cessationist. I actually went to an AoG church, conferences, university, etc. And as you mentioned, it’s unfair to make broad statements for the AoG beliefs as I know some, including professors and pastors, that don’t believe tongues are the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit 😂🤫 I’m just curious to know a fuller view of WoF

[@voiceofthefathertv]

@@adrianstorm474 wow that would be a conversation well beyond a comment section. Most of these "word of faith" church's are likely gleaning from the South West believers convention which is Copeland's crowd who I had to deconstruct from. Until I really began studying the fathers of the WOF particularly Hagin I realized they never really taught that stuff... One example. Copeland teaches you are equal to God have the faith of God and can speak things into existence just like God... Hagin taught you have been given a measure of faith from God, and in the same way you receive salvation by faith in your heart and confession of the mouth... 2 Corinthians 4:13 NASBS But having the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, "I BELIEVED, THEREFORE I SPOKE," we also believe, therefore we also speak, And this is how we receive from God anything else also...

[@davidwireback8621]

@@adrianstorm474 the reason many people when they’re filled with the Holy Spirit don’t speak in tongues. Like myself I wasn’t instructed on how to do so. I didn’t recognize what was happening to me completely. Actually when asking God about it when I asked for the baptism and holy Spirit and nothing happened at least I thought nothing happened. I want to go forward again because I want all the God would have for me so I could be all that he wanted me to be. And as I got up I began to utter syllables and words in another tongue.

[@PeterKluth]

Man I'd love to go to the remnant conference

[@wesleybaker3049]

I love Mikael! He has great stuff on his KZbin channel as well!

[@PietGrobler-dt1ce]

In Proverbs 18 Solomon is speaking as a king with the judicial authority to sentence to death or pardon a wrongdoer. Zero to do with "creative power"

[@laurens8623]

Yes we hear and see what the Father is doing like Jesus did and echo that. If we don't hear anything sure pray but don't allow the person to be disappointed or guilty that it didn't work for them. Gods timing is important

[@maxpalmer8172]

If you import Josh's definition of faith that he provides towards the end into James 2:24 it becomes "a man is not justified by trusting in Jesus..." Wouldn't that lead to a direct contradiction of Romans 10:9? If that is the only definition of faith.

[@savvystewardship]

Another great episode, fellas. It would have been helpful if Mikael had taken the time to develop his thesis that faith was relational. He simply made the assertion without backing it up theologically. I'm confident that he has backing but it would have been helpful in the context of this conversation.

[@TheRemnantRadio]

Thanks for the feedback

[@pembertonjones8135]

Hmm, I don't think we can "create" anything, but we can only work with what has been created.

[@TheGoodNews101]

I have “some” WOF in me after going to a WOF institute for 3 years about 25 years ago. I will say that they are right that faith is a relationship first and foremost but it’s also an action based on our relationship with God. I see part of that action of walking out our faith in God is speaking the word of God through our lips. Jesus said I do as the Father says and does so we do the same thing. As we hear what the Father says we say and do. Let’s not through out the baby with the bath water even though there seems to be a lot of bath water. Change my mind…

[@MariKayCreations]

This is really interesting, hearing the discussion on specific passages. Something else I heard in teaching recently, is that many times where the English translation uses the word 'faith' it is more accurate to say 'belief'. Like Jesus telling us we only need faith as small as a mustard seed, then apparently rebuking the disciples for 'little faith' - doesn't make sense. But if instead He was rebuking them for little belief, i.e. unbelief, then it makes more sense. Because how can you have any faith if you don't believe?

[@mismirisola]

I prayed for the my daughter cure, cancer with metastatic for 6 years, but unfortunately, she passed on april...

[@LAURIE_atheart]

And this ‘name it claim it’ teaching can be so harmful to those earnestly seeking things such as healing. May God heal your heart

[@sla1xyz]

I'm very sorry for your loss. It's such a difficult thing to go through.

[@ninjason57]

Sorry for your loss. As Christian's we have hope in the resurrection. New life, new bodies, in a world with no death. God will also wipe every tear from our eyes. Hold onto hope.

[@colleenwerth6350]

Excellent! Thank you!!

[@eddiesprain8243]

word of faith definitely do have a lot of interesting teachings. kenneth copeland has a teaching called "words are spiritual containers" and he does use a lot of scripture to back up the concept. Also Mark 11 has a lot to say about us having faith in the words that we speak and expecting God to move in a specific circumstance. we don't pray for something and wonder if something will happen, but we speak to the mountain in faith and we have his word assuring us that what we say will make an impact.

[@moasaad]

Would love to hear from y’all about the “quantum faith!” ….

[@carolyndunegan3505]

God did not speak the world into existence by faith. He did not express it with a confession. Those are the things we do to express our hope and confidence in him. He expressed his sovereignty and he released his authority through what he spoke

[@pembertonjones8135]

This thought crossed my mind based on what Josh said in the beginning: WoF can't be defended because it's not a single entity (and probably never will be). But how can it thus be fairly accused? The idea of WoF can be applied to almost any belief to serve the person making the reference (pro or anti).

[@mrs.tucson2103]

I know the WOF church I went to is really out there and they call Copeland dad. He is really out there as well. Others in this movement seem spot on. My problem is no one in the movement seems to be able to call out the wolves.

[@John-Christchurch-NZ]

Like this Guy Though I am x WOF I don't believe a lot of the nonsense espoused by Calvinists Heresy Hunters and ex WOF bound by a spirit of offence, about what they think they (WOF) believe I used to think faith was something I had to obtain and then had to do something with but when I read the Bible replacing the word Faith with Trust I think I get it Faith is always in God Just is trust is always in God When we do anything it is through and by faith in God Not of ourselves

[@colleenwerth6350]

Re asking for clothes, jets, etc (gimme gimme) and the Word of faith's at times mechanical use of what faith is, this is a distortion of the true meaning of a part of the biblical view of the kingdom of God. Jesus says, "Dont run after these things," but He also says, "Whoever forsakes... for My sake will receive..." On the one hand this is a promise re the future. But is also true in the context of God's promises and blessings re obedience in Deut 28:1-14. We can ask whatever we want in Jesus's name, but but not in presumption, because conditions apply. It is relational, not mechanical.

[@Leadeshipcoach]

Good discussion. I am surprised that Mark 11:22-24 was not spoken about and how in the Greek text the mountain being moved is in the passive voice signifying it is God, not my faith that moves the mountain(or does the impossible).

[@gracebright1388]

Love Josh’s model of prayer. Also, his definition of “psychological certainty” really describes the wrong understanding of faith.

[@BrendaBoykin-qz5dj]

Thank you, Brothers 🌹⭐🔥⭐🌹

[@davidwireback8621]

Who are these early teachers you were talking about. Are you talking about Kenneth Hagin. or are you talking about the prosperity teachers like Copeland and others

[@DarylWood-bi7hb]

The disciples asked why they could not cast out the epileptic demon in the boy in Matt. 17. Jesus told them that it was because of their unbelief (vv. 19, 20). As Jesus further clarified that this one does not come out except by prayer and fasting (v. 21), it seems clear to me that He was referring to the real problem: Not the epileptic demon, but their unbelief! Sometimes, if one is spiritually dull and in unbelief, he will need to draw near to God (prayer and fasting, perhaps?) before he will have confidence to overcome obstacles (such as the faithlessness of the boy''s father and of the crowd gathered around them--Mk. 9:19.) There was a collective state of unbelief, and the disciples had gotten sucked into it.

[@Leadeshipcoach]

Here is my question: can you trust anyone without a certain sense of "psychological certainty" about that person? I am confused in the dichotomy being created here between trust and "psychological certainty " as if you can trust someone without a sense of certainty about that person’s character based on past experience. How are we defining "trust" and "psychological certainty"?

[@rodeltumambing5701]

Faith in Jesus in all things....relational, power...a person....to ordinary Christians...is the difference important?

[@Nnjdl344]

Regarding using our words and praying for healing how do you explain then that we have authority?? And if Jesus told us to go make disciples, the disciples did those things… I look at it that if Jesus tells me to do it I will if not than don’t I’m very confused then. Thanks!!

[@RNHolley01]

Can we say the Egyptians DID die by faith as they entered the dry ground just like the Israelites? They had faith the water would hold…but it didn’t!

[@laurens8623]

So shouldn't we ask always in his will. Maybe he gives what we ask if he knows the outworking of that and how it will eventually lead back to God

[@earthandouterspace446]

Smith wigglesworth prophesied about word of faith movement its genuine .calvinism is not tho

[@ruthtirado2750]

Faith IS the substance!!!

[@TheRemnantRadio]

Yes

[@hughtrail143]

Every promise of God is a living word article of faith

[@FlowerPower-r8h]

Jesus is the word. Faith is just believing what the word says.

[@davidwireback8621]

It’s interesting that that they’re starting off right away acting like faith is not a force. And not the force of Star Wars. Rod Saunders who I wish they would have on this program at the same time to discuss this would give you an accurate description of faith is a force.

[@geographicaloddity2]

From the time I was very young, I was told how stupid, clumsy, lazy and ugly I was and I always sensed I was such a bitter disappointment to my dad. As I grew older, every time I was alone, I repeated those things and stayed down on myself and angry. Since i went through deliverance, I have found I have to control my tongue to keep from saying those things, and i need to start affirming my identity in Christ to myself or I get depressed. Can saying those types of negative things to yourself open the door for demonic oppression or is that a result of already existing oppression? Can our words about ourselves open those doorways?

[@rehobothjohn3224]

It'd be really cool if you guys could get some1 from the movement on the show. I recommend rod saunders Jew and Greek or SJ Newell Objective believer. Or maybe both.

[@withorwithoutu100]

Sometimes it's a demon and sometimes it's only biological, so discernment is necessary, agreed

[@thewberry]

I went to school with Mikael Stenhammar in 1998 at North Central. Or at least he has the same background as a Swedish guy I know in Minneapolis in 1998. That guy was a great guy. So maybe this guy is also a great guy too. So.

[@thewberry]

Knew

[@FlowerPower-r8h]

Honestly, if I had a dollar for every person who used the greek and hebrew words to interpret the bible id be rich. The only problem is they all interpret it different. Why should anyone believe one over someone else? This is why I decided to just take the word for what it is.

[@rammy3550]

At 14:05 this guy argues against Faith as a substance. Heb 11:1 LITERALLY calls it a substance. Now Faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen How can I take this person seriously when he’s telling us the Bible Doesn’t say what he’s arguing against and it’s two verses before the verse they’re referring to? Am I missing something?

[@maleccnurse1]

Yes. The scripture was not written in KJV English or KJV literary style. Going to BibleGateway or other resource that allows you to step out of King James World would be helpful.

[@chris20874]

When Jesus said "you" he wasn't talking or referring to what HE did. You can't say that when Jesus said you he meant if you were Him. Which technically we are His body on the earth. Which is only supposed to be led by the Head Jesus. Where do you see that they prayed for the sick? The only place I see that is in James and that says James 5:15 "and the prayer offered in faith will  restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him." So if the sick is not restored that is on us not on God. Also when the disciples couldn't heal the boy Jesus didn't say it wasn't Gods timing he said, “You unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring him here to Me.” which kind of implies that it wasn't God's fault it was the disciples who couldn't heal the boy's fault. Or maybe the crowds fault...whatever it was it wasn't God's fault. That is what I see too many people doing walking by sight and not by faith. They look around and say well this person didn't get healed so God must not have meant what He said. This shouldn't be the way we live. Remember when Peter before he was a new creation, before he was baptized in the Holy Spirit walked on water and fell in and Jesus said, "Immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and took hold of him, and *said to him, “You of little faith, why did you doubt?” Matt 14:31 -- what he doubted was when Peter asked Jesus to have him come to him on the water Jesus said "COME" so the Word of God said Come...and Peter believed it for a couple minutes and walked on water and then sank. Notice Peter didn't say well the Word of God must not have said Come...let me see if I can come up with a way that when the Word of God said Come He didn't really mean Come...or maybe He just meant Come for a couple minutes? No he didn't do that because that isn't right. No matter what we see let God be true and everyman (including oneself) be a liar.

[@pembertonjones8135]

What tells us the word of God is not true or applicable? It's typically what we haven't seen come to pass. But is that walking by sight and not by faith?

[@Susan-zk7ne]

I think it is a surrender and trust issue no matter what the outcome or our prayers. It still is a relationship. If our prayer is not answered as we think it should be then we can go to God and ask questions but must realize that God is in charge not us and we have to surrender to His goodness even when we do not understand.

[@pembertonjones8135]

@@Susan-zk7ne Everything you said requires faith. We're full circle.

[@kimberlyccrn]

I was talking with a word of faith friend and she said she believes faith is a substance due to hebrews 11:1. He said that faith is not a substance. I wish someone would help explain this.

[@ninjason57]

You can follow the use of the word faith in the Bible to get a well rounded understanding of the word in context. Here's one commentary that does this that might help define faith: "While the Bible’s theme of “faith” can be understood in a variety of ways, it can be summarized as active trust and belief displayed through obedience. Faith does not suggest mere intellectual or cognitive belief in a proposition, doctrine, or even a person, though it does sometimes entail doctrinal belief and theological understanding (e.g., that Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God who has come in the flesh). Faith is typically understood as involving the whole self-mind, heart, and body-in a relationship with God that expresses trust and a grateful response to His loving initiative........ The common assumption that faith is primarily intellectual agreement to verbal propositions has led to a sense of indissoluble tension between Paul’s understanding of faith (“we are saved by grace through faith”; Eph 2:8; Rom 3:22; Gal 3:11) and James’ warnings that faith unaccompanied by action is not genuine (Jas 2:24, 26). However, this tension is resolved when faith is understood as active trust in the covenant grace of God and the personal Lordship of Christ. Paul’s emphasis on the grace nature of faith-as a gift in the context of covenant relationship with God-agrees with James’ insistence that faith be underlined by and expressed in obedient works. - John D. Barry et al., Faithlife Study Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012, 2016)."

[@karenmaria0808]

Read Hebrews 11:1 in ESV (really solid translation). “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for”.

[@RachelRamey]

There's a good bit of discussion here of faith not being a substance, but y'all didn't really tackle the verse/wording that leads people to that in the first place: "...faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Heb. 11:1) It seems that we often read this as something like, "faith is the stuff from which the things we hope for are made.." I'd love to hear how any of you gentlemen would counter that interpretation. I lean toward reading it as something akin to "the presence of faith is, istelf, substantive proof that God and other unseen things exist." Is there another way that you would address that verse? On another note, the passage about not doing many works because of their unbelief...I would add that it's important to pay attention to how "unbelief" (or "unbelieving") is used in Scripture. It's a *categorical* term, associated with unrighteous/disobedience. It's not a matter of "this particular blessing takes 8 measures of faith and you only have 7, so that's insufficient." It's more like where we would, today, refer to "believers" and "unbelievers."

[@lindacarter5597]

I have no idea what the Word of Faith movement is or was ,so also looking forward -tsch -to finding out.

[@dljn123]

Same here 😝

[@user-cg9zq4bt5q]

Blab and grab

[@paulc7190]

@@user-cg9zq4bt5q so , is your salvation blab and grab, too ? how do you know?

[@nataliedyer1819]

@@dljn123 Mike Winger has some good videos on this. He's not a cessationist. May help

[@JerrickMonte1]

Brother ! I feel like we are asking about the meaning of the specific text and the answer we get is just proving the assumed perspective of the text wrong by other scripture but the question about the specific text is unanswered haha I desperately want to hear the answer! It's like click bait hahaha

[@davidwireback8621]

Man you guys are making this awful complicated. You’re right about it being relational. What do you understand about God. What has God been speaking to you in your time with him. Here’s the key point do you know that you know that you know that God has said go ahead and do this say to the mountain be thou removed . The problem I see was so many people today whether it’s worth of faith or Bill Johnson or any other charismatic group is that they’re doing things without first finding out is this what God wants to do. Faith is saying I believe I’m hearing from God about doing something and you go and you do it.

[@JosephLapmardo]

Daryl, what does the mountain represent, you don't understand that ?????

[@PC-vg8vn]

Im surprised you didnt comment on James 5: "Is anyone among you ill? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up.

[@colleenwerth6350]

Mark 6:3 - they looked at Jesus' family, then looked at Jesus (to quote Nathaniel, "Can anything good come out of Nazareth?"), knowing, as the elders did, that if one checked the scriptures, "Messiah does not come from Nazareth, but from Bethlehem." So while they knew of His miracles and word had spread far and wide about Him, He did not fit their iew of the messianic profile. Even the Pharisees had accused Jesus of having a demon - so, beware.. They forgot that the Scriptures prophesied that a prophet like Moses wd come. They just cd not take that step, to trust even a godly man performing miracles.

[@darcysoles1250]

Josh’s mic is hot, the other two are quieter.

[@margocarmichael6765]

Yes, often. Hard when your spouse is sleeping right there.

[@phillipsugwas]

Ask yourself and answer. Where was Jesus standing when he spoke about the mountain.

[@mismirisola]

The worst is that you think that it didn't happen for our weak faith

[@pembertonjones8135]

But I have to ask, why are many so sensitive when it comes to lack of biblical faith? If I didn't have the physical strength to lift a heavy object, or I didn't develop the discipline to accomplish a goal, should I beat myself up? It is what it is. No one is prevented from developing faith in God.

[@StephanieMontgomery-vb4vg]

I sent a message to Michael Rowntree last week sometime. Im really hoping someone can get back to me. There are no churches around where I live that appear to be similar to what yours are and im just seeking some sort of guidance. Thanks!

[@Susan-zk7ne]

I am in the same situation and have been looking for a similar type church also and there isn't one with in a reasonable driving distance. I am so grateful for KZbin. I miss the fellowship with real people who have a real relationship with God.