WOTC Took Over Commander! What Now?

Рет қаралды 27,364

MTGGoldfish Commander

Күн бұрын

Пікірлер: 483

@CrisMW98 Ай бұрын

I really like these videos where Tomer just goes off

@devinkerr5474 Ай бұрын

I love he can always go off and he still sound like the voice of reason. Dad is REALLY dissapointed

@oooldkel Ай бұрын

Tomer is passionate about magic, but he's not a smart person

@devan9197 Ай бұрын

Rude@@oooldkel

@msullivan1 Ай бұрын

@@oooldkelwhat causes you to feel that way?

@VivBrodock Ай бұрын

MTG players be normal challenge (apparently fucking impossible)

@liminal-ass Ай бұрын

Wizards and their dickriders can both go to hell. Nothing has changed since a week ago

@insainraven9875 Ай бұрын

I think the thing that is really telling is that every video on the topic on WotC taking over the RC is that it feels like no one trusts WotC not to ruin the commander format. Olivia’s comment in the matter is heartbreaking. “I hope I didn’t fail the memory of my friend.”

@morikmorvain Ай бұрын

I hope Olivia realizes that it was the haters who failed the memory. It was not her or the other RC members.

@insainraven9875 Ай бұрын

@@morikmorvain they really did fail the spirit of the game. In every sense of the word.

@thegodroxas239 Ай бұрын

@@morikmorvain it wasnt her but it very much was the rest of RC and the haters it takes 2. RC handled this catastrophically bad and imo uneeded aside from nadu. and people understandably got mad bans suck a lot of the time. as i said these were uneeded. i do not condone the threats though thats messed up but i also dont condone the RC descions including handing it of to WOTC and still having an oar in the water there too. its like nothing changed and they want to deflect blame which is a spit in the face of commander.

@AgentMurphy286 Ай бұрын

@@thegodroxas239You sound hella entitled. JL, Dockside, and Nadu were all design mistakes. Mana Crypt also should have been banned ages ago. It’s this mindset unique to this format that led to so much anger. Which is funny because that means it’s casuals complaining about not being able to use busted cards that cost close to 7 times the federal minimum wage. These bans were good, the only issue I have is that the CAG wasn’t consulted by the RC, and the RC never should have gone so long without bans. Everything else is issue with the player base getting mad about a toy.

@RadstacheAbides Ай бұрын

@@insainraven9875 The only thing that signals is that Magic players always think the sky is falling and that gloom and doom get clicks. Neither WotC nor Hasbro has managed to kill this game for two and a half decades. Regardless of what they do, we will always have our cards to play with however we see fit.

@rainmaker709 Ай бұрын

The goal of the CRC is to keep EDH fun. The goal of Hasbro is to have EDH make them money. Banning lotus was about slowing down hyper accelerated starts but also about telling WotC to stop printing hyper powered cards to sell packs at the cost of the format. Now they can't do that. BUT, once you start dealing with death threats you need a actual legal team to work with law enforcement to bring these sickos to justice. You can't have that without a company. This is saddening but inevitable.

@DamagePercent Ай бұрын

I think this is an overall negative for the format but we’ll see how it goes I guess.

@theJmanStriketh Ай бұрын

Don't forget that WOTC pretty much has the next year or two in the design/print pipeline already. They'll be able to make format level changes (banlist, rules, etc.) sooner, but I don't expect to see ramifications from this on card/product design for at least a year and a half.

@heliaxx Ай бұрын

They will chill and let it ride for at least one year. Then, they will start pumping small changes until the money gear starts to rotate faster.

@Lazydino59 Ай бұрын

Exactly. They need the dust to settle on all the drama before they turn the heat up gradually.

@anthonydelfino6171 Ай бұрын

Maybe, I can see them making some unbannings, especially for cards that lack logical consistency (for example when they unbanned Worldfire but left Sway of the Stars banned despite the two being basically the same effect) or cards that were banned more for personal reasons (like Sheldon made no hiding the fact he just hated Balance and that's why it's banned) Additionally I can see them looking it over and saying as the game has evolved, certain cards might not be as powerful as they once were perceived to be and may be safe to come off. Like I remember when Prophet of Kruphix was dominating tables, but there is a wonder as to if that card has been power crept to the point that it's not a problem anymore....

@Lucarioguild7 Ай бұрын

@@anthonydelfino6171 I think the difference is you can build around worldfire to win the game by having a lower curve, with sway you're basically restarting the game but at a lower life but still too high to have a consistent way to take people out

@supachigga Ай бұрын

Yup. Glad I switched to the Conquest format years ago so I don't have to deal with this

@anthonydelfino6171 Ай бұрын

@@Lucarioguild7 Sure there are janky combos to win the game with worldfire too (I tried to make it work in casual 60-card using oblivion ring and barren glory) but I also think you're still really slowing the table down since no one has a hand, no one has any resources, everyone is at 1 life, so you're still going around the table several turns while people rebuild and try to get that 1 damage in at an opponent. Sway might take a little longer, but it does mostly the same thing in commander. The only reason I could have justified it staying banned is under older rules, Sway could pull your commander out of the command zone and shuffle it into your deck, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't do that anymore

@scaredycat3146 Ай бұрын

I actually don't think WotC wanted to take over too urgently. The RC was an easy scapegoat and didn't intervene much over the last twenty years. And they still got to inject plenty of pushed stuff and some design mistakes anyway. While Lotus, Dockside and Crypt got banned, they printed so many new cards of comparable value in the last year alone.

@jasons5916 Ай бұрын

If Expensive Card X gets banned, they can always create Expensive Cards Y and Z. They know how to do that - make powerful card and make it rare, so they really don't need to be in charge of the format to make a lot of money off of it. The RC also bent over backwards to make rules for cards like Companions that were inconsistent with the rest of the rules just so WotC could sell more of the cards to Commander players.

@devinkerr5474 Ай бұрын

Not even a paper shredder, one of those corporate shredders that crunches the paper as well to make it un-tapeable

@FilippoCampana Ай бұрын

I really like the bracket system. More than the subdivisions itself, I like the fact of dividing in a specific way cards so it's easier to track the "value" of your deck. I think the biggest problem with the current 10 level system is the fact that there's no actual precise division. The same deck can be both a 5 and a 7 for two different people. About the takeover I think we can discuss as much as we want, but there's no going back. WOTC is now in charge and we have to accept It, whether we like it or not

@fiber1881 Ай бұрын

I don't. Tough with multiple playgroups that want to play at different tiers and having to swap out cards between groups. The strategy of the deck has a far greater impact on how powerful the deck is compared to the cards in it. This is also just really complex for a ruleset and probably will discourage players due to the complexity especially for new players.

@FilippoCampana Ай бұрын

@@fiber1881 isn't it already like this? If you go to a commander fest and the people at the table want to play high power, while your deck is a 7, don't you still have to swap either cards or table? Same thing if the table is low power

@fiber1881 Ай бұрын

@@FilippoCampanaSpeaking on the two current playgroups I play with one group just wants to play with all legal cards the other group wants to play with cards in Tier 3 only. The power of these groups is actually roughly the same. My most casual/worst deck probably has far more Tier 4 cards to remain reasonably competitive with the groups due to the janky strategy it imparts.

@jasonkorf7700 Ай бұрын

💯 percent agree with Tomer.

@pauldyson8098 Ай бұрын

You know it's serious when Tomer cusses.

@devinkerr5474 Ай бұрын

Dad swore and now we're all a little scared

@Welverin Ай бұрын

Not really, Tomer isn't allowed on the main podcast because of his potty mouth.

@Aarenby Ай бұрын

I've seen timer on main cast@@Welverin

@Lucarioguild7 Ай бұрын

@@Aarenby He's only allowed on very rarely because he curses so much Richard and Seth have said this on the pod lol

@msullivan1 Ай бұрын

@@Lucarioguild7they could beep him out (unless it’s live)

@Hemlocker Ай бұрын

I'm surprised at how optimistic I am about the bracket system. The way Gavin described it in the stream almost perfectly matched the way I imagined it should be. If it's written up properly and the list of cards isn't too long, I think it could have a positive impact on the format overall.

@TrainMan-7 Ай бұрын

My understanding is that the bracket system isn’t solely based on power level. I believe they touched on this in their announcement as well because when you look at a card in bracket one like swords to plowshares, that is one of the most efficient removal spells in the game and Armageddon being in four wasn’t indicative of its power level but of how much people don’t wanna play against it.

@TheEvolver311 Ай бұрын

They said that they will be looking for a means to get player input on which cards are placed where etc...

@atk9989 Ай бұрын

@@TheEvolver311oh my god it's a community fe fe list? Well I'll be ignoring that and i hope the rest of my LGS will too.

@TheEvolver311 Ай бұрын

@atk9989 oh you think I care about your opinion that is funny

@ThePancaked1 Ай бұрын

That sounds completely arbitrary though. Imagine your pet card is suddenly labeled a "3" because it's good in some deck/combo or people just don't like it. Or green ramp is all a "1" because people loooove land ramping and think it's fair. Suddenly your mono red burn deck is a power 3 because it "feels bad" and the mono green landfall deck is a 1 because that's in the spirit of the format.

@TheEvolver311 Ай бұрын

@@ThePancaked1 this is a justification for no bans at all because I know at least 5 people who would tell you jl, dockside, and mana crypt were fine and should have been banned. Any distinctions in restrictions on the format be it banning or teiring a card is all subjective. What are you personal tastes and preferences and what is your tolerance for certain interactions.

@phaedrosx Ай бұрын

The RC members that voted in favor of the ban should be banned from the WotC RC since WotC told them not to do the bans. We'll keep Olivia though, because she fought against the bans/offered a smart alternative.

@peeporiot9948 Ай бұрын

Thank you for waiting for the stream before making a video. Appreciate the measured approach.

@Dsmky117 Ай бұрын

big L for everyone

@thatepicwizardguy Ай бұрын

The RC has been largely useless for the longest time with people complaining constantly for years and years... how is this any worse lol if anything at least WotC is more consistent and professional with ban lists and such.

@20stardust Ай бұрын

@@thatepicwizardguycuz we all know how well wotc handles their current formats and how happy everyone is with those right? 😂

@discoviolenza1984 Ай бұрын

@@20stardust standard and pioneer are really good right now.

@jkdeadite Ай бұрын

@@thatepicwizardguy What are you talking about? WotC changes their approach to bans every other year. They have changed their ban list approach so many times. And recently, too.

@travismcdonald2713 Ай бұрын

Made me spit out my drink laughing. good one thanks for a good laugh today

@MakeVarahHappen Ай бұрын

I remember when a magic designer was ran off Twitter because he said that magic players didn't understand color pie. Every time something like this happens it just means less transparency less communication and less opportunity for feedback.

@RasmusVJS Ай бұрын

Wait, what did they say? I don't think I've heard of this.

@MakeVarahHappen Ай бұрын

@@RasmusVJS "Most magic players don't understand the color pie" or something to that effect.

@Welverin Ай бұрын

@@MakeVarahHappen True statement.

@Lucarioguild7 Ай бұрын

@@MakeVarahHappen Considering how often Seth complains about black getting enchantment removal even though they said they were adding it to black's identity years ago this is accurate

@MakeVarahHappen Ай бұрын

@@Lucarioguild7 I relate to him on that.

@grampaw5605 Ай бұрын

The problem is NOT the cards; the problem is the people.

@Zharak Ай бұрын

Amazing video! Thank you for your input

@joepiedepoepie1234 Ай бұрын

Since the first announcement I hoped and assumed Gavin was going to pick this up and now I know he does, I'm not worried at all.

@xyzephan Ай бұрын

I like you, dude, and I'm not thrilled about the RC handing the keys to WotC, but pretending that they've done a stellar job when their resume is a litany of failures to stop WotC from printing money and using the Lotus as the crux of your argument when it represents both their total powerlessness AND their dereliction of duty post-printing is incoherent. The format is already the way everyone is claiming it is going to become.

@BS-gk2cb Ай бұрын

100% agree. Commander has been in a state of “as good you make it” for a while now. There’s a lot of fun to be had if you’re playing with the right people.

@valgeir80 Ай бұрын

Agree, perfect take.

@TheTexasDice Ай бұрын

Garbage take. Suppressed and delayed action is infinitely better for everyone than absolutely no action. Which is what you are getting soon. Be careful what you wish for.

@chrismarlow9585 Ай бұрын

I agree, they had less ability to fight back against things and if they decided to ban cards they didn't like it was risking angering both WotC and the community. It was a tough spot for them and not one they could really win except with the obvious stuff like Hullbreacher. I know that WotC will probably be even less likely to ban cards but at least the bracket system can "restrict" problem cards as a measure which the committee can probably have significant control over. Additionally, when being asked to make chase cards they can probably more carefully create the right kind of designs when they're more heavily involved in the format health discussions. So overall I reckon this setup makes a lot more sense and comes with a lot of positives... as long as they take the right approach to things.

@atk9989 Ай бұрын

@@chrismarlow9585i have over 100 commander decks, I'm not going to bracket rate all of them, I'll quit the game before I go through an arbitrary point system of my decks when I have decks that have these "busted " cards that get stomped by newer precons.

@dm11933dda Ай бұрын

Threats are never ok. Though it seems folks are a little clueless that when you mess with peoples' money, they don't take it well.

@acaldwell64 Ай бұрын

I only picked up Commander like 6 months ago with a friend group (played on Arena for years) and it has been a roller coaster so far. Lol I'm a Yu-Gi-Oh player as well so, bans are not very shocking for me but, I can feel the outrage of the community and it's kinda crazy. Hopefully WOTC will take good care of things. I wish I had a better frame of reference, though.

@Alkhemia8 Ай бұрын

as a Yugioh player you know how this is going to go just go look at the current TCG prices of Mulcharmy Fuwalos (hint it 200$ per copy)

@stevendefeo8424 Ай бұрын

I play yugioh as well and banning is just funny to me now. I just play my red eyes deck and have fun.

@acaldwell64 Ай бұрын

@@stevendefeo8424 Cyber Dragons till I die, brotha. Haha

@stevendefeo8424 Ай бұрын

@@acaldwell64 hell yeah. They are so much fun. I just lost to that deck on Saturday. My cousin whooped my butt lol

@MediocreTCG Ай бұрын

@@acaldwell64 Brick Eyes for me 😂 Swear I can't get 3 good games in a row

@dullestpenguin4151 Ай бұрын

What have the RC been doing? Nothing for years, and then when they do something everyone loses their minds. All WotC has to do is match the RCs inactivity.

@TheEvolver311 Ай бұрын

Yup, they will simply put cards at the power level of JL in tier 4 and that will be all.

@ethanglaeser9239 Ай бұрын

I am also worried, but I am hopeful that this is a good thing. At the very least, the RC can be safe now.

@tylerfoster2814 Ай бұрын

I appreciate how you opened this video. You're absolutely right, violence or threats of violence are never appropriate and is nothing but cowardly through the veil of the Internet. I don't like WotC taking over, but I respect the RC's decision to divest themselves of this power. They were intended to be an effective check on WotC's tendency to power creep. While I feel that they have failed to execute on that intent until last week, I had hope that last week's ban decision was an important first step.

@talonjansen8926 Ай бұрын

I appreciate this video. The thing for me personally, has really been Commander. If MtG wants to milk formats for money, I get it; but if they start to strong-arm, which is exactly what this take-over is, I am out; an enfranchised player for over 15 years will be quitting this game and selling my stuffs. Which I never expected to EVER happen for me. Greed I can handle; I never engage in power dynamics. Straight up ever. So for me, taking control away from players, whether for the sake of corporate power or corporate greed, is where I draw the line.

@ShadWickBrand Ай бұрын

My wild speculation predictions are they make Planeswalkers legal as commanders as a rule, and add in some kind of small sideboard with the intent of having an official supported pool to easily switch brackets through, but what will actually just be abused as a wishboard.

@bryanchong1704 Ай бұрын

The One Ring was NOT designed to be a chase card. It was included in every bundle to begin with. The only chase card was the 1/1 ring and the serialized sol rings.

@avenage Ай бұрын

I think it's plain to see that long-term health of a format is going to be best for everyone, WotC included. However, the issue arises when maybe the numbers are down this year and someone decides they need to come up with something to plug the gap and then you end up with another "One Ring" chase card which warps the format so they can shift product and hit those targets. There is a clear conflict of interest once in a situation where the health of the format is at odds with their commercial performance.

@DaGraveCrowder Ай бұрын

I think there's a bit of painful humoir in the fact that cards named Cache Grab and Fear of Missing Out got printed right before the RC imploded

@barrytdrake Ай бұрын

Thanks, Tomer. Seeya!

@dominicmetzger3246 Ай бұрын

Wotc has always had control since the RC didn’t do anything for 3 years 😂

@magnusprime962 Ай бұрын

Dude, not the time.

@LowKey0721 Ай бұрын

Lol that’s a pair point

@anthonydelfino6171 Ай бұрын

wow you made me feel old since I would have sworn Iona was banned more recently than 2019

@dominicmetzger3246 Ай бұрын

@@anthonydelfino6171 you’re old sorry

@VRanger100 Ай бұрын

Back when I started in 2017, I was a competitive Standard grinder and was annoyed with seeing bans starting with Emrakul, the Promised End into a chain of Felidar Guardian into Aetherworks Marvel etc. During that time I decided to dabble into EDH and saw a Tolarian College video featuring Leovold and thought it'd be a cute "try hard" deck to play only to get 4 games with it before it being banned. Later on my friend and I were saddened to see our Paradox Engines banned. Thing with the Standard bans was it ruined the idea of Standard for me for a while because it got annoying building decks just for them to get banned so when most of the cards finally rotated out I decided to just focus on EDH and partially cEDH. I accepted Leovold and Paradox Engine getting the ban because those cards weren't designed with EDH in mind and I knew they were on another level. Now back in 2020 with Commander Legends being released, I decided to grab a full art Hullbreacher since it was a powerful card only for it to be banned a few weeks later. That actually rubbed off on me the wrong way because it was a card literally printed to be a chase card in a set designed for EDH. It reminds me of when WOTC had to ban Modern Horizon cards out of Modern due to the oversight of power certain cards had. I only hope the design team takes more of a look at what they put into the wild especially in premium products; and of course I know it's difficult considering the amount of products being pushed out. EDH bans are fine but when the team designs cards for the format just for them to banned like Dockside and Jeweled Lotus, it really hurts the confidence of players who also enjoy the collecting process.

@otterfire4712 Ай бұрын

With brackets, I expect more powerful cards to be kept at high tiers so there will be less incentive to take banning action for longer periods of time. Fast mana and power cards can stay in high power Commander and be kept out of casual locals.

@samanderson6488 Ай бұрын

Not sure what you mean by a couple of weeks on Hullbreacher, it was live for 8 months before being banned. It was tested shown to be to strong and banned. Very rarely are cards banned quickly in commander. Nadu took 5 Months and Lutri was prebanned. But most take 6 months to a year from release to get banned. A caveat to this is that if a card survives for more than a year from release in the last 10 years it is rarely ever banned.

@otterfire4712 Ай бұрын

@@samanderson6488 Mana Crypt was around since day one of Commander, Jeweled Lotus was released with Hullbreacher, and Dockside was released in 2019. RC broke tradition and thus broke trust. Kind of funny really.

@Rasudido Ай бұрын

I really don't get where people come with this theory that the RC had this ability to independently go against the WOTC cash grabs and would defend the will of the people. The ONE example which was jeweled lotus is clear evidence they never could do anything and saying they "finally did it" is a terrible example because it directly lead to the reason they are stepping down in the first place. There are other critical examples such like the case of the Walking Dead Secret Lair where their stance was simply "we dislike this and we hear the community yet we also wont do anything about it anyways."

@BosSoxFan15 Ай бұрын

I really don’t understand how ppl like Tomer think the RC had complete control over the banlist as a “checks & balance system”. Like this is a company and a card game, not a government. Wotc isn’t going to let 4 ppl their underling advisory group run their most popular and lucrative format. That’s why they had no control over cards like jeweled lotus getting printed. The banlist goes up on Wotc’s website, but yet you think they have no say in what appears there? The RC was just a cute little face Wotc could show off while they ran their card game.

@willowstatham804 Ай бұрын

Well said tomer nobody deserves to receive threats to their life! All i feel like should have happened along the formats ban update would have been a separation of competitive and casual commander, i feel if cedh had its own ban list then more powerful cards could be accepted because the format seems to run cards that can handle those sort of cards.

@BoGWoR Ай бұрын

I trust Gavin to keep the spirit of Commander where it needs to be if he's left to his own devices, and I hope Hasbruh can hold off on pressuring him to make decisions that are only good for their bottom line. I don't like bracket idea. It's still just "my deck is a ~7" but but now 2.5x less. I don't think anything will beat the rule 0 convo of "does your deck do this?" or "hey, I run this but can switch it out, we good or nah?"

@fullnelsonalchemist Ай бұрын

Good take. I don’t believe WoTC/Hasbro as a whole has any interest in anything in money. But I do believe that people within the company want the best for the game. I’ll just stick to budget decks so I don’t have to worry about my cards being banned and help me ignore the rampant FOMO that is very much alive in this format.

@Tiax776 Ай бұрын

In two years' time. Red enchantment. You can put this onto battlefield if you have this in your opening hand. At the end of each turn, your opponents take 5 damage. Need to get those turn 3 wins in commander as well.

@TransformersBoss Ай бұрын

4:49 exactly. A big part of the backlash and criticism the RC is getting right now is because they sat on their hands for YEARS letting these cards run rampant, and only decided to ban these pushed cards after they got reprints in the last year or two! Right when they became more available than ever, right after casual players might have dropped $50+ to buy one, they got banned. Nadu, at least, isn’t too expensive and was just printed, but if you’re going to ban Jeweled Lotus or Dockside Extortionist, ban them as soon as they get printed! It was obvious that they were busted on the day they were printed! That would have shown WOTC that their designs were overpowered and they needed to get it under control!

@EmperorsChildren Ай бұрын

Of course it's negative, threats or no threats, that decision was absurd, and the potential to kill the format is very real

@bryceamas Ай бұрын

1:26 FINALLY SOME COMMON SENSE FORM THE GOLDFISH GANG!!! I firstly need to apologize I didn't make it far enough in the video of Richard, Crim, & Seth to hear Seth's take but after hearing Crim & Richard's take I couldn't stomach to listen to any more and shut it off. Please Tomer go talk with your boys. Please please. I'm glad you're optimistic I can't say that I am but that doesn't mean I'm going to quit playing.

@Rick-oi3xm Ай бұрын

I get that it's still just a working idea, but I'm worried the bracket system could end up as 4 ban lists instead of 1. And people said "banned as Commander" was too complicated!

@Nemissis4265 Ай бұрын

idk what your talking about ragavan, it STILL is used and no, no power creep would get rid of this. Card advantage mana advantage, control advantage. Too much advantage. Only way this card is not used is if they made a card better than this

@wemf2 Ай бұрын

Fact: If the RC tried to stop Jewelled Lotus being printed, they failed. If they really thought it was bad for the format, they could have banned it years ago, but they didn't. Similarly, they could have banned Mana Crypt much earlier, but they didn't. They let these cards become staples of the high powered format and allowed the prices to be driven up. And then they suddenly decided to ban it without warning, causing lots of grief. Based on this incident, I don't see how the RC was effective at all to curtail WTOC. WOTC will continue to print OP chase cards with or without the RC. The difference is that WOTC is less likely to ban these cards since they want the cards to continue to be their cash cows.

@TheTexasDice Ай бұрын

And that difference is a MASSIVE difference. Do you seriously believe WOTC would have banned Hullbreacher?

@beerman2000 Ай бұрын

@@TheTexasDiceNo, but 1 correct decision amidst dozens that clearly catered to WotC doesn't excuse the rest. If they truly cared more about healthy gameplay and weren't catering to WotC, they would never have allowed Sol Ring to become the flagship card of the format.

@anthonydelfino6171 Ай бұрын

This is 100% speculative... but I have to wonder when you look at the timing of the bannings, was the RC under pressure from Hasbro legal department not to preban or immediately ban lotus. I do think there could have been a very real legal case made that if they banned the marquee card designed to move product, that they could be said to be hurting the sales of the company and sued over it. There was a very lopsided relationship between Wizards and the RC with despite the RC really having the final word, Wizards having far more power just by being a multi billion dollar corporation, and the RC being a collection of voulenteers.

@rainevasquez662 Ай бұрын

100%. Fuck hasbro of course. In fact, all the money printing tactics drove me from magic, and I haven't bought any since secret lair was launched. BUT, the rules committee is a god damn fucking joke. I'm genuinely glad they're gone. Not glad Wotc is running things. But it's honestly not any worse, since they were ineffective at pushing back against wotc, and their bans were ridiculously inconsistent, never matching their own logic, and either over reaching or not doing anything at all. They're refusal to revisit the ban list periodically to undo past mistakes makes them foundationally badly managed. They can't make errors and correct them, that's a terrible plan. And then they ban self-correcting shit, like "unfun" cards. Most tables don't play golos even before the ban, because its just a boring fucking deck and everyone who made one ends up taking it apart. good riddance. Well intentioned or not, they were ill-equipped for the job

@Lucarioguild7 Ай бұрын

Mana Crypt has always been expensive, also if we're talking about timing I think the fact that there's more JL and MC floating around the format than ever before and commander players have increasingly less self awareness is what ultimately lead to the bans

@neillaw Ай бұрын

The power level thing is insane to me... A single card that's a tutor can make your deck jump from a 2 to a 4?! The psychological factor behind these mindsets seems a bit crazy, it's 1 card!

@anthonydelfino6171 Ай бұрын

Even in their broadcast, they realized the impossibility of the project. They tried to say that Blood Moon is just as bad as Armageddon, when really no, they're not, Blood Moon scales in power the more non-basics people are running but does very little if people are running more budget decks which puts it in a real nebulous zone... it's probably totally fine at a 1 or 2 table, but they're trying to say the card is a 4. Also they bring up how Strip Mine or Crucible of Worlds aren't 4 level cards on their own, but they are when you're running both together... but then they said that the highest number card in your deck determines the level of the entire deck, but also that precons are a 1 but they might print power level 2 or maybe 3 cards into precons, which by their own definition would make precons not always a 1.... it really feels like they sent this idea out into the wild not even half-baked.

@samanderson6488 Ай бұрын

They aren't saying a single tier 4 card makes your deck a 4 it simply sets that card as a higher power card. They already mentioned examples where a tier 4 card can be run in decks without it really changing the power of a deck, but when your deck runs 10-20 tier 4 cards its not really possible to justify saying your deck is a 1 or a 2. What they need to do is come up with a deck building system that takes decks and gives them a score use AI sure. Then when you upload every deck made on moxfield, edhrec, archidekt all of those decks will be given a score which will help give the system some background data for deck ranking. It will take time to spot incorrect assignments, but it would help make the decision of a decks power automated on building it.

@drkatz1192 Ай бұрын

This is hands down the best take I have ever heard. Do Richard and Crim listen to your content or do you ever speak to them?? Lol. Thanks for being a voice of reason Tomer.

@claudeducharme007 Ай бұрын

Crims to much of a shill for these takes

@PopoTCG Ай бұрын

Gavin made Lotus. Gavin thought it was okay. So it is on him.

@pastelcia42 Ай бұрын

I 100% agree with everything you said here

@bennettwadekamper8238 Ай бұрын

I don't want to have to check my whole decklist against 4 different lists.

@PandaKnight-FightingDwagon Ай бұрын

I think the bracket system is really bad since it ranks every card in a vacuum and marks the power of your entire deck off of potentially a single card. Filling a deck with level 4 cards isn't automatically going to make a strong deck and an absolutely insane deck can be made with cards in powers 2 and 3. And that's without pointing out that trying to squeeze basically every card ever printed into only 4 tiers is going to make for an absolute mess.

@עידונוימן-ט9פ Ай бұрын

Bracket 4 - cedh Bracket 3 - high 7 Bracket 2 - low 7 Bracket 1 - jank/precon

@_narcosis Ай бұрын

the death threats were coming from inside the house

@huddleaw Ай бұрын

I think WoTC will be very hands off with the ban list. This sounds good but with cards like Hullbreacher and Nadu that are obviously egregious, I think that WoTC would just let them live in EDH for profit.

@anthonydelfino6171 Ай бұрын

I do think there's the possibility they look at the banned list and realize that some of the cards from logistical standpoint don't need to be there, and some that were just there because certain individuals just didn't like the cards. Fresh eyes on the list might be healthy for getting a couple of them removed, but I do agree that in general I think they're not going to go too far with any major changes for a while.

@jasons5916 Ай бұрын

It's not necessary to ban things when you can just say "this is a Bracket 4 card." Or whatever higher brackets they decide to make.

@Cyberium Ай бұрын

Yep, let those who design and print expensive cards to be the ones who regulate the dedicated casual format. What could possibly go wrong?

@Scienceboy0 Ай бұрын

I agree, we should give it to the people who design and print the cheap cards instead.

@peewee0224 Ай бұрын

You mean like how literally all of the other formats are run?

@Cyberium Ай бұрын

@@peewee0224 Other formats aren't the dedicated "casual" formats, hence a RC was regulating the ban list instead of WotC. Not anymore.

@peewee0224 Ай бұрын

@@Cyberium that’s not why the rc was in charge of the ban list. Wizards can run a casual format

@momothedragon Ай бұрын

The idea of getting rid of cards that don't belong at casual tables is awesome. This is my biggest pain point with the format and why I was hugely in favor of these bans. But if they throw these cards into tier 4 and they don't show up at casual tables, I dont really care if theyre banned or not. I don't need to yuck your yum, I just don't want my yum yucked either.

@vivianboor14 Ай бұрын

"Now that we dont have the RC, who is going to stop wizards from doing everything they have been doing since 2016??" Are y'all actually listening to yourselves, or???

@theJmanStriketh Ай бұрын

There was /some/ pushback from the RC. Lutri got instabanned, they just banned Dockside and JL, and I think there was a talking-to about Arcane Signet, but I do generally agree. I think it does open up some interesting space for WOTC to print cards for 1v1 and make them instantly illegal in EDH like they did with Lutri. Honestly, the RC cared enough about their relationship with WOTC that I'm 90% sure (no evidence though) that RC wanted to do the bans earlier, but the JL and Crypt reprints were already on the way, so WOTC asked/told RC hold off.

@vivianboor14 Ай бұрын

@theJmanStriketh right. instabanning lutri rather than say, banning it as a companion. Ormbanning tje whole companion mechanic in commander. we also know that Sheldon wanted them to not print Elesh Norn Mother of Machines, which wizards wisely ignored. Like, they hardly had a spotless record. At least now we can vote with our wallets if they fuck up.

@TheTexasDice Ай бұрын

Bad take. Hullbreacher got banned very fast and I appreciate a late ban over no ban at all. Under WOTC, guilded lotus 300$ cards will never hit the ban list.

@vivianboor14 Ай бұрын

@@TheTexasDice Jace.

@Rick-oi3xm Ай бұрын

@@vivianboor14didn't JTSM get banned with only one month left before rotating anyway 😂

@Miker0bs Ай бұрын

In reality this changes nothing for me or the people around me. At least with WOTC at the helm if real market manipulation occurs due to decision being made actual regulation can step in.

@TheEvolver311 Ай бұрын

Not really lol I don't think the SEC is stepping in on the MtG secondary market. And them designing a product to sell and then later banning it from competitive play if players are expressing discontent with it isn't going to raise eyebrows.

@Karonar Ай бұрын

Im not sure if people are really srs with those "regulation" takes 🤣

@seanedgar164 Ай бұрын

I do like that the brackets account for raw power and social acceptability. Swords is very efficient but game impacting in a bad way. Thalia should be a 1 tho

@noahfriedrich4686 Ай бұрын

I think that the Wotc takeover is being overblown a bit. The RC saw Mana Crypt get reprinted 5 times before finally banning it, plus waiting 5 years on dockside and 4 on Lotus, yet commander was still the most played format. The RC didn't "save the format" with these bans, they just changed it to reflect their philosophy. Commander is and will continue to be the most healthy and played format (unless they make more bans like this)

@Rococorico Ай бұрын

The fact the RC didn't have actual resources to do the job they've volunteered to puts me more at ease with the takeover. Regardless of company goals versus format quality, Commander is undeniably too big to be in the hands of anyone else, has been since at least 2018, and has grown immensely each passing year. The RC's alleged inaction was most likely due to lack of concrete data to act upon, and they've publicly owned the mistake of doing things so abruptly. They're just people, and they've tried their best. Whether one agrees or not with their decisions should never lead to the toxicity we've witnessed. You all just hope Wizards has ceased their businesses with the P*****tons.

@ThisIsCottonMouth Ай бұрын

Can’t wait for them to release decks of certain “levels” as precons.

@coldtruth9431 Ай бұрын

This rank system is going to force people to try to optimize at each power level and ruin the casual aspect

@brandonharris9306 Ай бұрын

Agreed.

@soupcansam75 Ай бұрын

It will probably not be difficult to create a tier 1 deck that can curbstomp significantly higher power decks, especially since Swords to Plowshares was apparently tier 1 which is... a take.

@beerman2000 Ай бұрын

I agree. I actually like a point system where every card except basic lands carries a point value. Sure it will take time and adjustments in point ranking to get it right, but I feel like it gives the best chance of defined point ranges that lead to the types of games people want. It would also eliminate most (never all) of the murkiness surrounding power levels. Will people attempt to also abuse this? Sure, but with corrections I think it could lead to a better place overall.

@BS-gk2cb Ай бұрын

Good. I hope they do. It will be more balanced than shrugging at your opponent and saying “I think it’s pretty strong kinda”.

@faithnfire4769 Ай бұрын

So, deck optimization rather than social optimization? Currently the best way to win more is to convince people your deck is "low power". There is always a best deck/strategy, this way at least on online games/pickup there is some limit. Friends can still just do whatever. idk

@timbombadil4046 Ай бұрын

Really dont think Arcane signet is a design mistake. It is good but you rarely want it when green is in identity. The difference is its been printed into the ground and its a good but not unfair 2 mv rock. If they printed JL or DSE into the ground they'd warp the gane more than they already did.

@bdienes20 Ай бұрын

Making money can be good for a product or bad for a product. It seems to me that Wizards of the Coast is playing the long-game with their product, so the health of the game and profits should continue to increase over the years.

@typethe1316 Ай бұрын

Dear Wizards of the Coast, Here's my thesis: Commander is your most popular format and drives most of your consumer demand and the secondary market value. However, the wide open rules creates negative play experiences. Some of the biggest point of conflict that I see are: competitive vs casual play, "unfun" play strategies (stax, control, etc.) vs a social community format that allows everyone a chance to "pop off", ineffective ways to talk about comparisons in deck power & strategies, and bad actors that just want to "pub stomp" people in public play options. These problems should be resolved by the changes below. These are my humble thoughts of what you should do next: 1) Split Commander into three separate formats: - Commander: This is the standard casual format that focuses on fun game play and is easy to enter. It focuses on social interaction and fun game play with a large amount of creativity and narrower game play styles. It has an extensive ban list that removes cards that are "too salty", "unfun", lock/control strategies, unbalanced game play, or "way out of budget" (I.E. just get rid of the cards that are socially and/or unspokenly banned). Cards that create game play locks, easy to access two card combos, or cards that immediately win the game are banned. Overly powerful card draw or ramp cards that snowball are banned. This is the standard format and all products (pre-made decks, commander sets, etc.) are designed at this level. Powerful cards focus on synergy and supporting niche game play styles or tribes. You need to look at this as a wall garden format that protects the players experience. - EDH: This is a format for enfranchised players and allows an anything goes to win mentality. It uses a point system (one to ten) similar to Canadian Highlander, but with a much more expansive list and a larger gradation of cards vs point. The gradation has a philosophy where powerful ramp/card draw & threat cards are low points, unrestricted tutors & each half of game winning combos are mid level, truly broken cards are reserved for the top levels. It is a competitive format and all play strategies are fair game. It uses the Vintage ban list. Any Commander designed premade deck should sit around an 10 to 15 in EDH. The maximum amount of points for an EDH deck is 25 points. - CEDH: This is for tournament level play. It has the same rules of EDH, except for the maximum amount of points is 50 points. 2) Create an advisory community for Commander and for EDH/CEDH. For Commander, it works with the community to manage the ban list and game play styles. For EDH/CEDH, it looks at the cards on the point lists and decides what the point levels should be. They can remove cards from the list, add cards, and change what the point value is. 3) Support content creators in all three communities. The goal should be to have a balance of content creators in all three communities. 4) Support events in all three communities. Make sure the promotion and identity is clear. Commander will be your normal LGS play style, EDH will be more kitchen table than LGS, and CEDH will be specific public play with potential for larger national tournament play. 5) Wait until the formats have stabilized and/or two years before you start creating "chase" cards for EDH because EDH cards will warp Commander. Commander does not need ramp/card draw options that would not work in Modern/Standard because while these formats need some ramp & card draw but can't wait for those cards to "snowball" into overwhelming advantage. However, in Commander, these cards that allow ramp/card draw to snowball into overwhelming advantage due to a lack of immediate interaction are too powerful in Commander. Rhystic Study and Smothering Tithe are perfect examples of what should not be printed (and maybe banned in Commander). 6) Start reprinting Commander staples. This gives people the game pieces for the entry level format. Try to make lower variance in secondary market value for the draws in packs by including cards that have value in Standard vs Commander vs Modern. The secondary market value of a play booster should on average more than the pack. You can achieve this by a reasonable amount of "power creep" and trying to avoid "dud rares/mythics". Move from "low power" sets vs "high power" sets to a "control" vs "aggro" sets, but make sure there is still a balance for the limited environment. Here's the business reason for why you should do this: your business will always ride on a tipping point of "amount of players buying new product" vs "stable secondary market value of cards". If you have a huge increase of new players buying product, the secondary market prices become unstable and can cause a loss of confidence in secondary market prices. This could result in a sell of that would lead economic downfall and a resulting loss of players. If you loose players buying product, your company looses income and the secondary market value decrease because players just keep playing with what they have. The inverse is what players consider when buying products and/or cards on the secondary market. The goal is to have an increasing amount of players buying products with a stable inflation for the overall secondary market, not specific cards. 7) All these formats should be fairly stable. Once you make the extensive ban list for Commander, don't change it unless you are adding new cards that are "unfun", "too salty", or far too powerful. Don't adjust the point levels in EDH/CEDH unless a card become dominant in CEDH in a way that warps the format. 8) Start designing a new version of MTG Arena that includes these formats. You'll have to do a lot of new things like creating friends list, playing directly with specifics individuals, add the full library of cards, etc. but it will bring in a huge amount of new accounts. You might consider buying out all the players on MTG Online in order to bring them in to this new app. Don't worry about the Reserve List. You are not reprinting them and the desire for MTG Arena players to own the physical version will increase their value. 9) Don't try to re-invent the wheel and create tools that are already readily available from other organizations/companies/websites. You don't need to be EDHREC or Archidekt. 10) You should create a tool where you can paste your deck list into an online tool that checks for banned cards in Commander and shows your point list for EDH/CEDH. Simple game check tools will be helpful for players. 11) Realized and support that there will be a lot of cross over between these formats. This is actually good. It will support the rule zero conversations. EDH decks that do not focus on control, stax, combo, etc. will probably be playable in Commander without changes. Commander decks that are built well should be playable in EDH. The most powerful strategies (Winota, storm, K'rrik, etc.) in Commander might even be competitive in CEDH, but the point value in EDH will add to the rule zero conversation in Commander. EDH vs CEDH is easily resolved by the point system. Having this cross over conversation also gets people to try other formats. 12) All of this will prevent you from having to create a tier level system which would force you to consider every card and what tier it should be in. More than the cost of creating tier list, you should avoid having to make players research what cards in a tier list. Players (especially casual & new players - I.E. your biggest consumer base) do not want a complex system that they have to research in order to know what their decks can play with and/or the tier list of their cards. Ban lists are easier to understand. Point systems are better for enfranchised players. 13) So.. Sol Ring... It should probably remain legal in Commander along with green land ramp options. It should be a 2 or 3 in EDH/CEDH. This allows it to be a staple and format defining card without breaking the format further. However, cards like Sol Ring or Arcane Signet should be considered "chase" level cards, rarely redesigned, and/or highly reprinted. This should be your boundary for fast mana. Avoid the problems with Mana Crypt (I.E. It was a "chase" card that was rarely reprinted, one of the best ramp cards, and created a game warping pay-to-play situation). With these changes, players will know what kind of game play they want to have and how the want to play the game. It helps both new and experienced players. It maximizes the room you have to design and print new cards without creating grievances in the community. Yes... This will be a large change. Yes... It will create some confusion/conflict in the short term as people have to decide how they want to play Magic: the Gathering. But it will create a stable long term set of formats that will mostly resolve the current problems faced in the Commander community. Here's the worse potential outcome for your company: you do nothing (or something that creates confusion for the Commander community) that diminishes player trust & creates more effort for players to interact with this amazing game. You need some simple tweaks and changes to allow the Commander format to continue while allowing more competitive players to have similar outlets. If you don't find this balance, you will lose players and potentially trigger a negative feedback loop that will hurt the game as a whole.

@Davulzz Ай бұрын

Summing your deck might give a better picture? Discounting lands the vampire deck would be 130ish, far from the 4 heavy 250s

@Nephalem2002 Ай бұрын

I think we’ll be fine simply based on the Marvel Leaks so far. I mean we’ll still be product flooded but power creep has largely remained stable where I play.

@dariocampanella7992 Ай бұрын

You are right, it was only matter of time

@Grimlocksmith Ай бұрын

I saw one comment that got me thinking: 4 levels means that there is going to be 4 different varieties of cEDH. I am not sure I believe it, but I could see a world where people would build "optimized" lists for each of the 4 levels. Is this change going to accidentally weave cEDH players in with casual players?

@soupcansam75 Ай бұрын

I like the concept of the bracket system but give us a bracket 0 and only bracket staples and stuff so there is a place to run your Murders and Unsummons. Like a "not quite pauper" commander for the budget gremlins (i.e me) to have fun with. Also do not make Commanders fit into the bracket system. I have an Old Atraxa deck that's entirely based around depletion lands and incubate. Who is helming the deck does NOT define the power level of the deck.

@jasons5916 Ай бұрын

A lot of people don't like any fast mana (Sol Ring included), so IMO a Bracket 0 would be useful for that.

@markusspitznagel2011 Ай бұрын

As horrible as the reason for this development is I think the bracketsystem can be good. I might make the rule zero conversation easier (that already works imo) and can help to find the right table

@QuicksilverSG Ай бұрын

Institutionalizing infinite combos via automated deck bracketing will quickly bring an end to casual Commander.

@aaronw4262 Ай бұрын

I am concerned that the new power level guide would turn decks like specter tribal into a power 3 or 4 because there is a painful quandary and tutors in it. Or it would turn EDHREC into a power 4 machine when it's purpose is inspiration or finding deck lists. Also, even if a deck has powerful cards, it does not mean the person is guaranteed to know how to pilot the deck.

@BlindTheRhino Ай бұрын

Its worse for the format to be sure, but for a 3rd party to have any say AT ALL over a company's most popular and valuable format is the *exception*, outlier, and honestly a blessing that was frittered away by the MtG community. It was absolutely insane that WotC even entertained the existence of the RC. let alone made efforts to actually listen to input. Of course MtG is a profit driven IP. they need to have the foresight to nurture the golden goose, not kill it. But at the end of the day they own the IP, they get to make decisions (that we hope are wise) and it is *not* the norm to have a 3rd party control a format. Yes its worse, but no it isnt automatically "fox in the hen house, end of the world". We were lucky and we squandered it.

@Duskraven377 Ай бұрын

Modern Horizons Block Constructed is what will eventually happen to Commander now that WotC is in charge. The checks and balances have been removed. Watch what happens in two years.

@classycasual3910 Ай бұрын

Ең жақсы KZbin

WOTC Took Over Commander! What Now?

Пікірлер: 483