How to design a good dinosaur game roster

X'Zaguer Discord Server - / discord
X'Zaguer Patreon - / xzaguer
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A while back I made a video discussing the roster creep issue in the isle, showcasing the ridiculously large roster that is planned for the game and the potential issues that may cause.
However I’m not entirely satisfied with it. While I did point out a very serious problem that can damage the game in the long term, I didn’t explain how rosters are made or the thought process behind them, so today thats what im going to do.
Today we will learn how to design a good roster and the core pillars of character design.
Hope you all enjoy the video :)
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Chapters:
Intro 0:00
Main Content 0:32
Outro 10:55
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#TheIsle #TheIsleEvrima #Evrima #gamedesign #Concept #ConceptAnalysis #GameAnalysis #XZaguer #theislenews #leveldesign #TheIslemap

[@crabhater9373]

Personally I don't consider the roster itself to be an issue, but rather the game that the roster fits into. For example, there are games with larger rosters like rainbow 6 siege or super smash bros that, while not perfectly balanced, manage to have a compelling experience even for off-meta, or near carbon-copy characters. I think these games highlight a part of this discussion that may offer more insight into why games with large rosters often fail. It is because the accompanying game mechanics do not support characters that don't perfectly fit the meta. In any online game, even those without rosters, metas develop, and weak strategies are ignored. It is simply a part of playing a game to try to optimize the highest chance of victory. The devs obviously know that some dinosaurs they develop might never be truly viable and yet they make them anyway. I don't think they do it simply because they want to cram the game with as many dinos as possible. Those that want a meta experience will play meta dinos like rex. People who want some extra spice in the game will play the strange dinos. Magy has been getting a lot of shit for being completely unviable in such a game, but I just think it will be cool to have some variation. Sometimes the meta choice isn't the fun choice, and strange creatures like magy offer a much needed change of pace to keep the game fresh. One of the most popular operators in siege is the recruit, an operator with no gadget and no meaningful advantage. As a final point, we have seen what a barebones roster looks like in the isle. EVRIMA right now is boring as fuck because there simply isn't enough biodiversity. With a game like the Isle, redundant creatures are not just some debilitating weakness, it is the reason the game was created in the first place. Are we not all here to play a game about running around in an island teeming with dinosaurs? It sure beats a roster of just rex.

[@BlueBeeXD03]

No I didn’t read all that

[@crabhater9373]

@@BlueBeeXD03 the fact you commented makes me think otherwise

[@BlueBeeXD03]

@@crabhater9373 lmao

[@AnimeRyker2001]

Yeah, everyone has a main, but sometimes people want a break from that main, are there ever gonna be Dryo mains? no, but even on Official servers I have seen and been in large Dryo herd at max capacity. Diversity doesnt always mean a good thing, but it does add playability. If you get bored of being a carnivore you would have a plethora of choices. and I kind of like the learning curve of the Isle, you get good at Utah but want to play Teno? Now you can do the claw attack or Tail slam and master that, and then its more fun! I use a spinning wheel to Decide my Dino specifically so I dont show any bias.

[@Mical21]

Ultimate solution: don’t make a dinosaur simulator

[@MrSuchomimus9]

I like that idea

[@Patrick3183]

“Final solution”

[@ender_z4nd3r83]

Ultimate solución to no get tired of dinosaur games: don't play them

[@braedenmurray3851]

How do you solve global warming. dont have a planet

[@zandergonzalez5190]

Snap some bad dinosaurs survival games

[@destroyerofgold]

I found zaguer from his history of the isle video, never stopped watching. A shame that The Isle devs are too ignorant to take your advice. Love it man!

[@kade-qt1zu]

Thank you X Zaguer. I'm absolutely sure that the isle devs will completely ignore this advice anyways, but it's still good advice. Come to think of it, what if you collaborated with some other people to create your own dinosaur game?

[@caseyworkman757]

I'm not part of the isle team but another dino game and I've been paying pretty close attention to these coming out. I'm glad he's doing this even if the isle devs decide to not take the advice.

[@davidaceves7283]

He should make a game

[@davidaceves7283]

Maybe a creature survival game not dinosaur

[@MysteryDryo]

@@Docter_Morgan_X_Asakura_Rikako The Isle and Path of Titans do not need more creatures. The Isle's roster is already full and has creatures that are basically copy of another one, I think that over 50 creatures is enough for it. Path of titans doesn't need more aswell and Paralititan wouldn't make it to that game, too large, we do not need more apex carnivores, Nigersaurus would be Amarga but worse, Ouranosaurus is not needed and Kapro can just stay out and why are you spamming this exact same comment

[@kade-qt1zu]

@@caseyworkman757 What game are you part of.

[@soft6267]

Really good content, perfect for making a game. Not necessarily a dinosaur simulation but even just survival games with dinosaurs!

[@imbored3416]

You should change the title to any animal survival game in general! It works for making a roster in general, and might get more views that way.

[@timbomb374]

There can be overlap of niches, but two creates can't have the exact same set of them. You can have specialists who do a single niche really well and more flexible one who can do a few niches decently. Being able to exploit multiple niches means if you get out competed in one of them you can fall back on another.

[@infernowolf8914]

Honestly, I just want to be able to play as a “mid-tier” brawler. I personally want to feel strong and capable against most, but not have zero fear. I am honestly sick of Utah and Carno being the only two land predators. God I can’t wait for Cera to come in. And honestly, I am don’t think The Isle devs put much consideration into what is prioritized over what. It always feels like they are adding whatever the hell they want and not thinking about the repercussions of doing so. This is honestly one of the reasons why I don’t care about humans being added, as I honestly don’t think they should be implemented at that point. But nope, apparently that’s what they decided we want instead of, oh I don’t know, some god freaking new playables that aren’t both at or below 100 kg?

[@GORILLAPAZZO05]

I can't wait for Allo and Alberto to come out, i'm tired of playing the same carnivores over and over again

[@AnimeRyker2001]

a herbivore could be a Mid Tier brawler, like Iguanodon (which I really hope gets a concept soon) A medium speed, medium damage that even Apex carnivores need to approach a little cautiously due to its damage and stamina output. Iquanodon would see a Rex and stand its ground with intimidating bellows and thumb spikes ready to slash and stab.

[@ezzeldintamer8779]

​@@AnimeRyker2001iguanadon would run from rex It doesn't stand a chance

[@AnimeRyker2001]

@@ezzeldintamer8779 How does it no? its a large, heavy set herbivore with thumb spikes

[@ezzeldintamer8779]

@@AnimeRyker2001 trex is much larger

[@timbomb374]

Animals irl occupy niches. Creatures in a game should do similar. Many creatures can even have a couple of niches they can exploit, letting their flexibility make up for their lack of specialisation. You got different food sources like grass, leaves, fruit, nuts, insects, fish, specific animal meats etc.. Environmental adaptions like swimming, jumping, climbing, flying, heat retention, heat expulsion, water retention, poison resistances and so on. Social communication abilities, stealth and camoflauge There is a ton of different things to mix and match to give things tons of veriety.

[@tjarkschweizer]

That is the case in natural ecosystems but in these dinosaur games they always throw animals together that are not supposed to coexist. That can't coexist!

[@dakomii]

Once again, you do not dissapoint! Quality arguments and very solid ideas. Great work!

[@duder7396]

dakomi

[@viewerbeware3795]

About the Trex argument: Such a complexity can be negated by these three variables - Hunger values -- Theres a difference between a rex consuming a utahraptor, and a rex consuming a triceratops for examples. You may be able to supplement your hunger bar for a bit by consuming small tiers, but its unlikely to be actually sustainable, so the rex is forced to hunt larger creatures due to this fact, some of which may or may not have the capacity to actually kill the rex. - Matchups -- Due to the Hunger values preventing you from dining on small tiers to survive, now it comes to the matchups. For example: It may be easier to kill a dibble if you get the jump on it, but it'll likely not sustain you enough. However, if a rex wants to sustain itself, it must hunt larger creatures. A triceratops would be more than enough to sustain it hunger wise, maybe even for a while, but a triceratops may be ridiculously hard to take down, due to possessing armor on its head. Think of it this way, if a triceratops has armor on its head, and can turn quickly, that possesses a huge challenge for the rex, and requires unique strategies to actually take it down. - Growth -- Although, growth is a touchy and fragile subject, my point still stands: Any apex level creature like rex, giga, spino, trike, stego, etc. should have a lengthy and long growth stage, whether it be 5 hours, 6, or even 9. If you do make a playable grow that long, you should also provide incentives to grow faster. For example: Default rex grows for 8 hours, but nesting provides a permanent growth boost that negates the amount of hours down to 7. Or hell, diet system moment. Lets say two diets were 100% growth boost (default growth. It literally means 0% growth boost), and perfect diet was 150% growth boost. That means a rex with a perfect diet would grow for 4.5 hours. That is a huge incentive for a rex.

[@viewerbeware3795]

I trust that the devs know what they're doing with the balance, although they added two fucking apexes in the "ecosystem" full of smalls. They're reworking diets so we'll see if this is TIs saving grace or downfall

[@benanders4412]

Apexes don't have to be a problem. But they'll have to make some adjustments to the game and especially the map. Some ideas: #1 Biomes, nesting spots, escape routes and hiding places: Divide the map in different biomes. Give smaller animals enough places to escape, hide and safely nest where larger animals simply can't go or have a hard time. Borrows, caves, rock formations, dense Jungle, fallen trees, deep water, fallen trees over rivers and streams, hollow trees, small tunnels. Make it possible for some smaller species to climb trees, hop rock formations etc etc. This will work best within different biomes. Making the best nesting grounds the safest for the species. The food supply might also be adjusted per biome to give different advantages to different species. #2 Natural selection, breeding and evolution: Adjust growth time, nesting, partner selection, egg incubation time, egg numbers per nest, fertility time and reproduction in general. I would opt for a genetic up-breeding tier system where players can slowly improve stats for their offspring by breeding with the right partner and eating the right diet. Make it possible for players to inspect their partner by for example sniffing them. Or maybe a mark left behind by a player {mark territory}. This gives players long term and team orientated goals and more to do in game, creating something like a dating simulator. People will also get more long term invested into the game by doing this. These buffs should be small and take many generations and a long time to max out. Breeding the perfect specimen should be a puzzle, team effort, long term commitment and a challenge. Giving somewhat realistic evolutionary effects. And might also influence skin color etc. Example breeding Tier system: F till A tier. Starting with all E tier if spawning in without being given an egg by another player. Every tier 10 points. Every stat a separate tier/point pool. Good diet parent for [stat pool] +1 point for that stat Perfect diet parent for [stat pool] +2 point for that stat Good diet during hatchling stage [stat pool] +1 point for that stat Perfect diet during hatchling stage [stat pool] +2 point for that stat Bad diet parent for [stat pool] -1 point for that stat Horrible diet parent for [stat pool] -2 point for that stat Bad diet during hatchling stage [stat pool] -1 point for that stat Horrible diet during hatchling stage [stat pool] -2 point for that stat Inbreeding takes a huge hit on the stat pool. And might even make offspring go back into the negative or F Tier. Risk and reward: The food supply might also be adjusted to give some species an easier time within different biomes. Forcing some species to travel more and take more risks if they want better breeding stats. Or play it more safe and stay within their own nesting biome where food is plentiful but limited in it's diversity. If the differences in growth time, nesting, partner selection, egg incubation time, egg numbers per nest, fertility time and reproduction in general are big enough, there will be more players and larger groups who opt for the smaller animals/herbivores etc and will max them out much sooner. Just like in real life, there will be much more smaller animals and evolution will go faster with the fast breeding species with many offspring over the larger animals with few offspring. A clan of small herbivores might be able to have perfect stats within a couple weeks, while a clan of T-Rexes might take many months. #3 Adjust day/night times/visibility and introduce a more impactful sleep system #4 Adjust agility.

[@tregrenos8615]

In a game with a large roster overlaps are to be expected, but as you play with a variety you have an easier time picking up something new as some of the general aspects are similar. Take the medium-sized theropods as an example, a Utah and a Dilo should have several mechanical differences, but would be a similar form of playstyle compared to something like Triceratops.

[@benanders4412]

Apexes don't have to be a problem. But they'll have to make some adjustments to the game and especially the map. Some ideas: #1 Biomes, nesting spots, escape routes and hiding places: Divide the map in different biomes. Give smaller animals enough places to escape, hide and safely nest where larger animals simply can't go or have a hard time. Borrows, caves, rock formations, dense Jungle, fallen trees, deep water, fallen trees over rivers and streams, hollow trees, small tunnels. Make it possible for some smaller species to climb trees, hop rock formations etc etc. This will work best within different biomes. Making the best nesting grounds the safest for the species. The food supply might also be adjusted per biome to give different advantages to different species. #2 Natural selection, breeding and evolution: Adjust growth time, nesting, partner selection, egg incubation time, egg numbers per nest, fertility time and reproduction in general. I would opt for a genetic up-breeding tier system where players can slowly improve stats for their offspring by breeding with the right partner and eating the right diet. Make it possible for players to inspect their partner by for example sniffing them. Or maybe a mark left behind by a player {mark territory}. This gives players long term and team orientated goals and more to do in game, creating something like a dating simulator. People will also get more long term invested into the game by doing this. These buffs should be small and take many generations and a long time to max out. Breeding the perfect specimen should be a puzzle, team effort, long term commitment and a challenge. Giving somewhat realistic evolutionary effects. And might also influence skin color etc. Example breeding Tier system: F till A tier. Starting with all E tier if spawning in without being given an egg by another player. Every tier 10 points. Every stat a separate tier/point pool. Good diet parent for [stat pool] +1 point for that stat Perfect diet parent for [stat pool] +2 point for that stat Good diet during hatchling stage [stat pool] +1 point for that stat Perfect diet during hatchling stage [stat pool] +2 point for that stat Bad diet parent for [stat pool] -1 point for that stat Horrible diet parent for [stat pool] -2 point for that stat Bad diet during hatchling stage [stat pool] -1 point for that stat Horrible diet during hatchling stage [stat pool] -2 point for that stat Inbreeding takes a huge hit on the stat pool. And might even make offspring go back into the negative or F Tier. Risk and reward: The food supply might also be adjusted to give some species an easier time within different biomes. Forcing some species to travel more and take more risks if they want better breeding stats. Or play it more safe and stay within their own nesting biome where food is plentiful but limited in it's diversity. If the differences in growth time, nesting, partner selection, egg incubation time, egg numbers per nest, fertility time and reproduction in general are big enough, there will be more players and larger groups who opt for the smaller animals/herbivores etc and will max them out much sooner. Just like in real life, there will be much more smaller animals and evolution will go faster with the fast breeding species with many offspring over the larger animals with few offspring. A clan of small herbivores might be able to have perfect stats within a couple weeks, while a clan of T-Rexes might take many months. #3 Adjust day/night times/visibility and introduce a more impactful sleep system #4 Adjust agility.

[@GEK0dev]

Thanks for the thoughts. I will remember these for implementations in my game lol

[@GEK0dev]

@@Docter_Morgan_X_Asakura_Rikako Noted.

[@SuperGalfrieg12]

Your channel is amazing… probably one of my favorites. Keep up the AWESOME work!

[@infernowolf8914]

@@Docter_Morgan_X_Asakura_Rikako My god, can you just shut up. These are all terrible suggestions and they seriously don’t need MORE creatures.

[@AnimeRyker2001]

A Specific Playstyle? that I could choose? hm...well I want the idea to be unique and theres a few dinosaurs that I think the Isle should have. Pachyrhinosaurus, a decently sized, bone breaker herbivore that can get coconuts, isnt a good runner but is a pretty good biter due to thick scales. A mixture of Legacy Trike/Diablo with Evrima Pachycephalosaurus aspects (I mean what else is gonna eat coconuts?) or maybe A medium speed brawler that can fend off Predators in its weight class or slightly above, Decently tanky with good damage and bleed, im thinking for that role we should have Iguanodon.

[@nmci8959]

Another important thing to note is the overly bloated planned roster of Evrima is a relic of The Isles progression days. With progression it makes much more sense to have such a large roster but with general survival it makes things very complicated and bloated, and it gets hard to make things stand out. In progression it dosent matter as much as it's just a way to get from point a to point b, but what reason is there to play Diabloceratops or Corythosaurus when they have larger counterparts that do the same thing but better? A popular counter argument is "but the ecosystem" and sure, if you want to give the illusion of that, adding a wide range of animals would be fine. But making them playable is unnecessary as simulating a true ecosystem is virtually impossible and all this accomplishes is making it increasingly difficult to find members of your own species or entire animals just aren't played because they aren't viable. Quality over quantity.

[@smansam]

While I agree, I’d say some people would pick Dibble because of shorter growth time overall. If it takes 6-8 hours to grow a Trike but only 3-4 for a Dibble then some will sacrifice power for time

[@nmci8959]

@@smansam Your not wrong, hence why I avoided using apexes as a comparison for this, and more in line with various similar mid or small tiers, hence why I used styraco as an example for Diablo instead of trike. As the two are quite similar in size.

[@smansam]

@@nmci8959 To be fair I don’t think you specified which so my bad for assuming trike. If the devs could implement a different style of damage I could see similar things working but differently enough. Dibble being a more ‘gore the hell out of something’ and Styrac being more ‘precision piercing damage’ but I don’t think the devs will do that unfortunately

[@kuitaranheatmorus9932]

This content is amazing, X Zaguer I enjoy this video, hope to see more soon Also I wish you're having a good day

[@timbomb374]

And please for the love of dinosaurs make combat that isn't just run up and mash the bite button!! why not have a bunch of moves with start up, active frames and end lag like a fighting game. Have them react to getting hit, have stamina and all that stuff.

[@flightlesslord2688]

I think Historia has it best. Just like... actual species in the actual time. Obviously that game might be more single player and AI focussed, but I still fee like I'll enjoy it more than the Isle or even BOB, but maybe thats just me. I think the Isle absolutely suffers from too many species, so even if they were picking animals that fit well and had a suitable place in the roster something else would in turn make many species unviable. I honestly think the fix for the Isle is less. Thats it.

[@DimitriHellas]

The issue is that its taking dinosaurs from different time periods, it is difficult to make Allo, an apex of its time, a mid tier same with many others, its like putting ww2 era soldiers in a modern battlefield

[@Mrbubbles979]

You are a one of a kind KZbinr and was looking for a isle KZbinr just like you! And I love your vids so much keep up the good work!

[@Crakinator]

I think Afterthought is doing a pretty good job of making all their playables totally unique and avoiding overlap in play styles. If they dropped more than 2 playables and 3 mechanics per year, that would be awesome.

[@yin-yangbrandon7852]

A bit late to the party, but I’d like to see how you’d design your ideal version of your game roster. Like, maybe after the whole in-depth analysis, you could talk about how you’re gonna do it

[@killercompy631]

Im momentaeky try to make a triassic creature survival game on roblox with my friends and im right now still wirking on the roster so this video was very help full thank you (:

[@IndominusRex-wc1ey]

How's that going?

[@CosmicPotato740]

One play style dino I really wanna see are large feathered raptors. They are big enough to not be completely useless, there speed and agility is high due to the balance and strength in the body, they are highly intelligent opportunistic hunters that allows for a number of different hunting strategies from hunting small prey, scavenging meat, stealing eggs, and once you get them in a pack you can pose a real threat to bigger dinosaurs. It’s a nice nitche in its own and I hope someday it comes soon. I have yet to see it from the Utahraptor in beasts of Bermuda, to the achillobator in path of titans to the re-modeled Utahraptor in Evrima…

[@tjarkschweizer]

Are you talking about a play style or real animals? Because the ladder would make you appear very uninformed.

[@CosmicPotato740]

@@tjarkschweizer Both I love the play style of feathered raptors and the looks and history of there Intelligence

[@tjarkschweizer]

@@CosmicPotato740 Just for your information, Do to their specialized feet, dromeasaurs were actually not particularly fast runners. They also most likely didn't hunt in packs. Their anatomy is specialized for hunting smaller animals.

[@CosmicPotato740]

@@tjarkschweizer The smaller dromeads yea but I mean the bigger ones. Ones that towered near and above the Jurassic Park raptors

[@tjarkschweizer]

@@CosmicPotato740 Only Utaraptor fits that description. They were the least adapted for speed. They probably did hunt prey of about the same size as themselves. And they appear to have been the least intelligent of the Dromaeosaurs. Obviously they were also the most badass ones.

[@Mangaka_Ody]

This video is amazing, good job , I enjoy this content so much, every time I see a new vid I immediately click on it.

[@javonscruggs8233]

What are your thoughts on ark survival evolved roster of animals

[@pleasantdashi7112]

9:28 Worst dinosaur game ad I’ve ever seen not joking

[@The_Man1447]

I just lost my whole Utah pack to a goddamn mix pack on NA 5 I’m sad and pissed

[@omniovi6567]

RIP. fuck mixpackers.

[@Raptor.YT.2008]

or we can make everyone broken until no one is

[@AntiThotPatrol]

With the animal survival genre, its a shame that almost all of them lead to a dinosaur survival game. There’s so many animals, time periods, or possible gameplay mechanics that could be made…. Honestly, you don’t even need real animals but instead make up fictional ones to make things interesting.

[@grendel8342]

Maybe put a cap on the amount, and don't try to simulate an ecosystem with specific behaviors in mind when designing something players will be actually controlling. The idea of larping or "roleplay" in the context of these games are not in the same definition as something like fallout or any other actually good RPG survival game, in the context here its basically the digital equal to just getting on a stage and "acting". Like that really bad community WWD, these games should not be so devoid of actual gameplay that we have to "act" or engage in a very stilted and forced way to have "fun". And i blame a good chunk of this on the bloated rosters, keeping a roster at a low and contained number especially for an EA game not built to work like league or smite would help an absolute shit ton. If anything you should be looking at games like evolve or other games that focus on combat and player based interactions through direct combat or environmental manipulation, but i digress the isle and the dinosaur sim genre as a whole has only a single problem. The brain dead communities that basically cause the games to stagnate instead of actually experimenting with the still in development tech demo. (don't argue about EA games not being tech demos, they pretty much are because they are still an in process demo of what is to come in the future.)

[@vcamv2354]

Although I'm not defending WWD, as I've only recently started playing on their POT server, but had only listen to bad stuff about them, they aren't "forcing you to play a certain way". They are a server which aims to be more realistic, they made rules and profiles to achieve this goal, you are not forced to play on their server, or how they wanted, BUT, if you're a player who LIKES to play like that they offer their possibility. I myself love to roleplay realism, and of course, we're talking as relaistically as a server can make the game to be, so, I cather to those servers and playing by their rules is fun to me. They don't exist cause the game is devoid of gameplay, they exist cause there's a certain group of people who likes to play the game in a different way. Just like, deathmatch servers in POT or BOB have no growth, you just enter as an adult, and it's a free for all battle royale

[@grendel8342]

@@vcamv2354 get ratio'ed plus your playing with furries, also yes they exist due to a void in gameplay and people are forced to "make a game" in the absence of actual mechanics or gameplay outside of walk around, maybe bite, then eat/drink, repeat.

[@vcamv2354]

@@grendel8342 I know a lot of them are furries... Sadly. And well, even if the game had a gameplay, again, unless you're Saurian which already aims at being hyper realistic, people with a liking to play more like animals and less like humans would still make those servers. Even with a reach gameplay

[@grendel8342]

@@vcamv2354 my point is that this is a symptom of a community coping with the fact they are only playing a fancy tech demo with only bells and whistles to appease themselves until something of substance is made. So they play literal mind games, force people to "act" according to private server rules, and then bitch about how the game isn't realistic enough when that was never the aim of the game's original intent.

[@grendel8342]

@@Docter_Morgan_X_Asakura_Rikako what is your point here?

[@alexs29]

For all of The Isle and BoB's problems they're till not as bad as PoT's terrible roster creep and overlap. That game does it the worst out of this sub-genre imo. So much ability overlap between similar species to the point where it makes the majority of those species unviable, ON TOP of utilizing recycled abilities and attacks, to boot.

[@vladline1882]

Rex can be beaten by other rex, Triceratops and sauropods. Other than that is BS and unrealistic for the sake of "balance"

[@sowofoxs3099]

yeah having a lot of dino can be a issue but id rather deal with thos issue and have a big list of dinos than have like one of ech kind i mean this update just came out and im already bored wanting a new dino to try