YOU ARE GODS with David Bentley Hart and John Milbank

[@emidior7948]

DBH! Where would we be without him.

[@Jordan-hz1wr]

Hell

[@normaodenthal8009]

We would be up the creek without a paddle.

[@Alkemisti]

I would be an angry depressed misotheist apostate---no joke---if his _The Experience of God_ had not woken me up from my delusions in 2017.

[@gfujigo]

@@Alkemisti That book is a classic, a gem.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

atheist?

[@niki233utube]

DBH never ceases to amaze me! Such a brilliant and uncompromising thinker.

[@Thomasrice07]

I am sure he would enjoy knowing so

[@adamwesselinoff126]

Two of the great living theological minds talking over each other like two old mates down the pub. Just fantastic

[@christopherconey732]

I agree, but also say that it is ever so slightly embarrassing to have a discussion between two different people who agree with each 100% on essentially every point. They were continually patting each other on the back so much, I was thinking they both might need to see a physiotherapist after the recording for possible back injury.

[@Joeonline26]

@@christopherconey732 "might need a physiotherapist for back injury" - i love almost all of David and John's work, but that comment was hilarious 🤣🤣🤣

[@Amiro1885]

Familiar with DBH but where should I start with Milbank

[@HarryNicNicholas]

and not saying anything as well, 'mazing.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

@@christopherconey732 ha. ha.

[@jamesmikkelson7636]

These two thinkers understand what Good News really means. Thank you for posting this!!

[@HarryNicNicholas]

what does it mean?

[@glenclary3231]

I wish Dr. Hart and Dr. Milbank would continue this discussion without the time restrictions.

[@anselman3156]

6:49 The not being elevated to supernature is not in itself a condemnation to hell. The alternative is, rather, the possibility of attaining an eternal state of natural perfection. Elevation to supernature is a gift, not an exigency of nature.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

hell is as made up as god chum, about time folks realised that and stopped doing crap cos they are afraid of burning.

[@tylerlynch2849]

I think when future generations survey the intellectual titans of our era's theological and philosophical thought, these two men would have to be featured among their number. Even where I disagree with Millbank and DBH, they've never disappointed in presenting a provocative and interesting view on important subjects

[@Thomasrice07]

For being two of the most arrogant modernist thinkers, maybe. Their view of "Thomism" is selective and poor.

[@automatonpilot5040]

@@Thomasrice07 How so?

[@derpfaddesweisen]

Hart definetely, Milbank not.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

i doubt it, have you seen the polls, religion is the least exciting thing in the world, it's so unimportant that the "nones" are second generation, they don't even know they are atheist cos they never heard of god.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

@@Thomasrice07 when you folks argue an angel turns queer.

[@fdg2438]

Thanks for sharing & thanks to the author for the upcoming book. This was theologically very pleasurable and beautiful, to say the least.

[@lauragiles5193]

Wonderful discussion.

[@doug_sponsler]

Respect for Christopher, who performed the small miracle of getting both DBH and Milbank to stop talking for a moment :) In all seriousness, though, the conversation was worth every minute, and I can't wait for the book to come out.

[@mkfort]

He contributed nothing to the conversation besides cutting it short.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

@@mkfort ouch. did you clear that comment with god cos it sounded like something that might just get you ejected from heaven. not very generous in tone at all.

[@mattsigl1426]

Kurt Godel makes a good moderator.

[@mattsigl1426]

Seeing God in Alice in Wonderland as enfolded into the story of Grace is a key to seeing how God and grace are in EVERYTHING.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

what's that in english?

[@ChrisSamuel1729]

Who is Aruguna (20:20 onwards)?

[@aesop1451]

John Scotus Eriugena

[@ChrisSamuel1729]

@@aesop1451 thanks!

[@daughj]

David is like a big brain with a beard

[@thatguyk.5306]

He would argue that intellect does not emerge from brains, therefore he’s more like a big being with a beard :)

[@HarryNicNicholas]

@@thatguyk.5306 just another producer of hot air. first demonstrate there is a god to make all this hot air about.

[@worldnotworld]

More! More!

[@cineboy65]

Besides the fantastic content, which I love, I also can't help but wonder if one had to choose... is it better to have the most impressive hair on top of one's head or on the bottom of one's head?

[@lukalisjak2106]

Fantastic discussion!

[@HarryNicNicholas]

only if you believe snakes talk and god can't protect apple trees.

[@ElasticGiraffe]

​@@HarryNicNicholasNeither one of these guys believes snakes can talk or that God is especially concerned about apple trees. You got lost looking for a Ken Ham video.

[@OrigenisAdamantios]

"HAVE YOU COME TO TORMENT US BEFORE THE TIME?” -SAY THE CRITICS OF DR. DAVID BENTLEY HART

[@Robb3348]

right, because DBH is actually the incarnate son of God. ohh those stupid critic-demons, don't know who they're dealing with. the only way anyone could have a critical thought about DBH's ideas is if they were damned beings, suffering in the eternal fire prepared before the foundation of the earth for Satan and his minions. yes that explains the fact that some people disagree with DBH quite nicely...thank you, Lord, for your revelation in the New Testament, which illumines my path

[@OrigenisAdamantios]

@@Robb3348 Have you had an opportunity to talk to him in person about your concerns?

[@Robb3348]

@@OrigenisAdamantios talk to whom? about what?

[@HarryNicNicholas]

not really, i'm more of a "more drivel about your imaginary friend" sort of commenter.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

@@Robb3348 god?

[@jdcole82]

I do get confused how Milbank is in such agreement with Hart, yet seems to be sometimes aligned with those like Deneen who is closely in line with Vermeule, who Hart is so deeply opposed to.

[@riseaslarks]

This is an important comment that gets at some fine-grained but vital divergences between these thinkers. I don't have a complete grasp of the shades of difference here, but my sense is that the issue is where one goes after criticizing liberalism (a critique which all of these thinkers share). After liberalism, do you go in the direction of Christian socialism or toward a kind of authoritarianism/integralism? I think that some of the comments that Milbank makes at the beginning of the video about nature/supernature and integralism are really important here: he claims that weirdly certain integralists (perhaps Vermeule?) are actually still trading on liberal assumptions about the political as a sphere of pure power. Anyway, that's my inadequate answer, but I think it's heading toward where the distinctions lie. There are likely others watching this video who would be able to nuance this further.

[@kaidoloveboat1591]

Anyone know the name at 15:05?

[@bman5257]

Maximus the Confessor, John Scotus Eriugena, School of Chartes, Meister Eckhart, Nicholas of Cusa

[@phoenixkennedy5927]

this is great stuff. below are two links to must read books if you are interested in these matters.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

i'm passing on that one.

[@daneumurian5466]

An article in the peer-reviewed journal of the American Scientific Affiliation, _Perspectives_, argued that Noah's Flood was regional, in the area of the Black Sea, even though it seemed to the locals to be worldwide. The author also identified the town where Noah probably lived. Whether or not the story had any element of historical veracity, it makes the point that there is ultimate accountability. If Hawking's Grand Design had a Grand Designer, it would make sense that the Designer's masterpiece, humanity in possession of some degree of free will, would be held accountable for how it exercised that free will. I believe it was CS Lewis (possibly Tom Holland--sorry) who said, "It's only in Christendom that you see the breaking up of this pagan model of 'the ruler is it, and the ruler says what happens, and whatever the ruler does...Sometimes the ruler is divine, as in late and decadent Roman pagandom, the ruler's even a God. And you just don't have that. Now you have the prophetic voice of the Church, using the gospel of Jesus Christ to confront the ruler and set boundaries around the ruler."

[@ParisFonder-mc8hz]

I beg to differ I will never refer to myself as a GOD nor do I have a desire to be one it was given to me at a young age to never attempt to try to hold that title or worship anything or anyone other than Christ

[@MrKreinen]

Isn't Hegel's Dialectic a valid ultimate metaphysic of "logos" (as the principle of comprehensibility, and the as the foundational reality experienced)? Why does is it that people want to pretend that Hegel was "trying to pull a fast-one" by thinking that his Dialectic is "God" (an untimely Aristotelian Judao-Christian trinitarian's image of God at that)?

[@jasonb4321]

The last five minutes. . . 😳

[@grmalinda6251]

Could each of us be an , What if?

[@lordmozart3087]

44:15 Who??

[@jackdomanski6758]

John Scotus Eriugena

[@lordmozart3087]

@@jackdomanski6758 thank you 🙏🏼

[@jackdomanski6758]

no problem, he was a great mind

[@RootinrPootine]

Arugula

[@St.Raphael...]

Amen

[@brians7100]

Milbank with your turn man

[@WC_Refugee]

I am astonished that Dr Hart would attack a divinely inspired institution! What's wrong with the DH? He obviously hates pitchers.

[@jesusdeity2010]

YOU are a God in the flesh! Through Christ, God gave us back the divine life mankind lost in its fall. Hence the divine healing miracles and casting out of demons, we experience up to this day. To not see God in Christ.... is impossible. "The Father and I are one!" "If you see Me, you see the Father!" "Don't you believe that the Father is IN Me?" "ALL (!) AUTHORITY in heaven and earth has been given to Me!". (Only God has all authority). At healing the paralytic: "Your sins have been forgiven you!" (Only God can forgive sins). "I am THE (not a) light of the world"......: God. "I have come to give you Zoë (=divine life) in abundance".... Only God can give Zoë life. "I am from above, you are from beneath. You are from this world, I am not from this world"..... Etc, etc, etc, When He explained these things, healed the sick, casted out demons, raised the dead, controlled nature for 3 years, they all worshipped Him as God/Messiah.... except for the critical scholars and farisees! He NEVER said: "Don't worship Me, I am just a prophet!". The Jews wanted to stone Him because: "You claim to be God". So Jesus is God manifesting in Human form. Period. Glad He did. So now we finally know the sayings and actions of God. Next step. To not see Jesus bringing the divine life of the ages back to you-manity.... is impossible. "I will send Holy Spirit, the same as Me, He will be IN you, guide you into truth and give you explosive power to heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out demons, etc, etc" "Follow Me, the miracles I do, you will do too" "God is IN you" "The Kingdom of God is IN you" "He who meets you, meets Me". "You and I are one" "You will understand that the Father is IN Me and I am in you" "See, I have given you power over all the forces of the enemy" "I have come to give you Zoë (=divine life) in abundance!" Etc, etc, etc. Hence the divine healing miracles and casting out of demons with His first 12+72 friends. As i understood these things, i experienced healing miracles and the casting out of demons already thousands of times and many other true believers do too. Yay! Conclusion of Paul after having revelation and healing all on Malta: "Jesus, the exact image of the invisible God. The fullness of deity dwells in Jesus bodily" and you have been made complete IN Him (the last Adam), who is the head of every principality and power". John (who had seen, touched, heard Jesus and walked in the same power and love): "the invisible God manifested in human form, in Christ and now in us". Thomas having revelation saying to Jesus: "My Lord and My God!". Jesus being God did NOT correct Him. Etc, etc, etc. His life totally proves He is God in human form. Begotten by the Spirit of God, filled with the spirit of God, healing all, raising the dead, casting out demons, controlling nature, raised from the dead, pouring out His Spirit for us to be indwelled by to be empowered to heal the sick and cast out demons, etc, etc, etc. Way to much to degrade Him to "just a prophet". So... Jesus is the manifestation of God in a human body.... "the Son" of God. He came to take the alienation away mankind got trapped in after the fall. He came to give us back the divine life Adam/mankind lost in its fall. Because of this fall, a perfect Holy sacrifice had to be made. That is what God did in Christ! It shows His deep, pure, affectionate passion from Him to you/His creation, to restore you back to origin: Christlikeness. Walking in divine power and unselfish divine love. Jesus walked flawless. Muhammed on the other hand.... Muhammed came after Jesus. He unfortunately never understood God's resolve for mankind's fall, wrote another story, called it the only truth, cutting of the real truth, leading millions astray from their godly identity in Christ. Heartbreaking. But for those who take Jesus for who He is and ask to be filled by His godly Holy Spirit.....: divine life. Tangible presence of God, healings, demons running for cover, etc. Just as with His first 12+72 friends. God will make you experience the full (godly) Life made possible through Holy Spirit. So don't be afraid to leave islam. God can only be found in/through Jesus Christ. Ask Him to fill you with His/God's Holy Spirit so He can guide you into truth and transform your life. You and God/Jesus are finally one again. He will open your eyes and give you Zoë (divine life). You will be growing into Him in all things. The life you see in Him and His first 12+72 friends. I experience it since 25 years and so will you.

[@TheGuiltsOfUs]

Then he never understood rabbi Yeshua in the first place, radical Torah observance - not its abandonment for pagan ideas!!

[@larrycarter3765]

You wish!

[@WeirdWizard97]

As the subject was Hart’s book, I could have done with a good deal less Milbank and a good deal more Hart.

[@MicheleArpaia]

yack

[@aaronkrohn2195]

Millbank is smart but my Goodness he keeps talking. Ask a question. Stop lecturing

[@alittlebitoflight]

Personally, I'd invite them to talk for much longer and get out of their way. Millbank gonna Millbank. And that's fun, to me.

[@daviddeane]

DBH, in manically trying to win internet fights (new atheists, anti universalists) that he never wins (he convinces only those already convinced) is effectivly becoming a Schleiermacherian. This is sad.

[@Ebergerud]

Which figures are Catholic Nazis? DBH is a very sharp guy, but seems to be utter mean spirited. And after 2000 years of Christianity two men in our foul age have it all figured out? His book on universalism was vicious - despite a basically splendid message. I don't get it.

[@carsonwall2400]

I think a polemical tone is entirely justified in regards to such a degenerate view as eternal conscious torment.

[@verdi2310]

Any individual ready to defend the concept of eternal torture is by definition a nazi. Also is someone with a very dangerous nature, probably able to commit despicable acts of violence if the opportunity arrives.

[@ppfuchs]

I enjoyed the take-down of right wing Catholics at the beginning fo this video! Fascists indeed!

[@manfredman5075]

Catholics are generally not right winged. I do join you in your enjoyment of the taking down of the Catholic religion and its tragic misconceptions and practices.

[@ppfuchs]

@@manfredman5075 Well, I agree with the first thing you said, but not the second. Generally, Catholics as whole have been quite tolerant in a de facto way. That is, there was always respect for the ideal, but not a lot of expectation that anyone was going to live up to it, except maybe for some exceptional types, who were made "saints." Btw, you only get this sense by reading about Catholic cultures, not just about histories of the clergy or Papacy, or hagiographies of saints. Of course, there always right-wingers around in any Catholic cultures, but even there there was a often a de facto tolerance. The contemporary Talibanization of the Catholic right is truly a novel phenomenon in some ways. It has been heavily bolstered by modern technology. So, I am happy indeed for these reactionaries to be "taken down." But I am NOT interested in seeing Catholicism in general to be taken down. NO, I think Catholicism is one very beautiful and artistically brilliant religious path, with many wonderful aspects in it. I think religions in general should be open much more to knowledgeable criticism and reform. Our society still has a very hands-off vibe when it comes to religion. And this I am against. Religions, all of them, are both good and bad. So it would behoove human beings to start taking them seriously as part of life, in stead of fantasizing about getting rid of something that can't be gotten rid of. But this includes openness to real criticism.

[@racheladkins6060]

What the heck are you jabbering about? Use normal words for us “lay people”? Ffs!

[@Lovingkindness.]

What they are saying is how some childish people are intolerant and condemning of others when they can’t understand them.

[@thejarjarexp2147]

I, too, search out talks by serious, academic theologians and get angry when they speak like academic theologians

[@manfredman5075]

Expanding one's vocabulary makes more sense than not no?

[@manfredman5075]

They are in their element when speaking in this manner.

[@manfredman5075]

I believe it really is a form of human pathology for one to not only hold on to eternal punishment for either being the "wrong" religion or making an imperfect choice as a human but for one to also go to great legths to try and create arguments for support of such a malicious and dark not so amazing idea of grace is strange. Fear is not the heart of love.

[@ВНачалеИВокругНего]

Thank You very much for this conversation. I want to translate this video into russian and dub it. If you give me permission.

[@UofNotreDamePress]

Thank you for asking! You have our permission.

[@ВНачалеИВокругНего]

@@UofNotreDamePress Thank You very much!

[@susie2960]

DBH has a beautiful tone of voice. The tone of someone voice means so much to me and is one of the reasons I prefer to spend quite a bit of time alone. I am educated , yet not educated at the level of DBH. I do enjoy very much listening to these talks with DBH because I find gold nuggets just from listening. Point of example - in the last one and two minutes of this talk - the golden nuggets arrived. 🕊🕊🕊🤍📕📕📕

[@Lettie22]

Me too! Tone almost means more to me than anything when people are speaking!