High speed landing. Cathay Pacific Boeing 747 has leading flaps issue at New York Kennedy. Real ATC

[@coma13794]

4:57 "otherwise the tires are in the 'melt zone', so 4L is our only option." Important detail.

[@YouCanSeeATC]

It was really hard to get. Your comment is pinned.

[@avrohomz4582]

What's the melt zone?

[@biscuitag97]

@@avrohomz4582brakes get so hot they melt the tires/ the heat over pressurizes them and they blowout

[@gonetoearth2588]

@@biscuitag97 actually it melts a valve and a more controlled loss of tire pressure...avoids a blowout

[@Davros-vi4qg]

Sounds ‘exciting’ whichever failure u get😮

[@mailer__daemon]

Gotta love the clapping "yeahhhh buddy!" in the background at 8:26 once Cathay has completed the landing safely

[@donaldgrump5393]

Could had been another controller after receiving a text that his stepson just won Michael Bubble’s Christmas Song contest at school, guess we’ll never know

[@coma13794]

Outstanding coordination and communication. Cathay said what they needed (an ILS and a good amount of runway), ATC tried to make ILS 22L work to minimize impact, while advising they could still get 4L if absolutely needed. Cathay tried hard but stood firm on the 4L requirement. This is what great coordination looks like, should be a textbook example for controllers and pilots in training.

[@angelinasouren]

Yes, smooth, I agree.

[@kickedinthecalfbyacow7549]

Or they could have gone to Newark….

[@ValNishino]

@@kickedinthecalfbyacow7549 JFK 4L is 1000 ft longer than Newark.

[@kickedinthecalfbyacow7549]

@@ValNishino true, but the could have landed on the landing runway at Newark, rather than shut down the entire airport at JFK

[@sma7141]

Cathay boys , pure professionals as always.

[@Joe-mz6dc]

We flew Cathay from Vancouver to Shanghai return a couple of weeks ago and they were great flights.

[@Michael_K_Woods]

The issue with the CANARSIE 13R approach is that it’s done on a 041 heading base leg right turn to final approach to 13R. There is < 3 miles to get straightened back out after the turn and when you’re taking the turn even faster due to the flaps issue it’s even less time to make sure everything is stabilized.

[@drumjedi5301]

Thanks for that! As a non-pilot I was wondering about that. That makes perfect sense.

[@megatop412]

Yes, there isn't much time for final corrections after rolling out of that turn at normal speeds, of all the approaches I've shot at JFK(with a camera) 13L has the most go-arounds for sure

[@kickedinthecalfbyacow7549]

At 190kts the radius of turn would be too large to get onto 13L in time

[@RollingThunder2020]

Given the disruption that an opposite direction landing would cause, it'd be interesting to also see a version where all the traffic in the area is visible. A hell of a lot of work though.

[@jsnsk101]

Cathay: we have a flaps problem. Final: No problem sir. Me: that was a quick fix!

[@12345fowler]

Well flying the Canarsie at 200 knots in a heavy would be a hell of a sight to behold.

[@Republic3D]

Yup, especially a 747.

[@kc0eks]

Nice to hear a friendly jfk atc

[@Neodynium.the_permanent_magnet]

For a change?

[@MikeyCh09]

I’ve never heard JFK be anything other than helpful and professional when emergencies are declared.

[@rorschach6478]

@@MikeyCh09 "when emergencies are declared" are the key words

[@BillySugger1965]

Highly professional job all round. Good job people!

[@ryu0016]

Great job in the cockpit! Clearly, all members are well communicated, competent, and great management

[@TTKT236]

Hong Kong Boys in the cockpit.

[@bobteter4300]

Kudos to ATC, well done.

[@m4nu507]

A lot of debate regarding if its an emergency or not, at the end of the day its up to the captain to decide that. Aircraft was under complete control and no imminent safety concerns for the people on board. That said, ATC has the authority to declare an emergency for you if needed, controller activated the emergency protocols due to the amount of work required to move traffic around to accommodate the aircraft requirement for rwy 04L. Remember new york is one of the busiest airspace in the world, if its not an emergency they wont accommodate a specific runway request when the flow is opposite direction.

[@anthonyklein2944]

Emergency status, also allows pretty much any rule or procedure to be disregarded to get the aircraft safely on the ground, I.E. cuts the red tape. This is typically the reason ATC will declare for you.

[@Andrew-tb9vr]

Well that crew knew what they were doing.

[@malahammer]

99.99999% of them do.

[@worldaviation4k]

*Professional all round*

[@Republic3D]

These Cathay boys might have Kai Tak "Checkerboard Turn" experience. Canarsie at 200 knots would bring back fond memories.

[@sma7141]

Hahaha IGS 13 approach

[@SMCITW]

Nope. None of them have. Cathay pilots are now greener than a 13 year old who just discovered internet porn.

[@lingau5349]

@@SMCITWthat’s not true

[@SMCITW]

@@lingau5349 Yeah? how so?

[@lingau5349]

@@SMCITW Captain and FO are still very experienced. They hire many new pilots now doesn’t mean, that all the experience pilot are gone.

[@NeedSpeedRC]

Great job all the way around. The capabilities of the 747 are unmatched.

[@Mike.The.Jeweler]

I mean except it's capabilities to manually lower slats lol

[@Secretlyanothername]

They are matched or exceeded by many aircraft

[@whophd]

@@Secretlyanothernameyeah you have to draw a bit of a long bow to say “unmatched”, maybe Boeing only, maybe Boeing of its era

[@cassandratq9301]

🤣

[@borisglevrk]

an interesting detail: for multiple times Kennedy says 4L but Cathay replies 04L. Omitting the 0 is more common in the US while in Asia the 0 is retained.

[@KeithScott-d7f]

The whole world except the USA uses the zero.

[@borisglevrk]

@@KeithScott-d7f Even Canada? I thought Canada is usually going "the American way" when it comes to aviation.

[@alankwok2210]

His Canto accent came out when he announced the flaps issue.

[@marryson123]

3 souls on board. Sounds like a freight cargo flight.

[@dougaltolan3017]

You might kick yourself if you have another look at the video thumbnail...

[@cassandratq9301]

That makes sense.

[@cubplt]

All Cathay Pacific 747 operations are freight ops. Cathey doesn’t operate any passenger 747’s.

[@PikalaxALT]

I'm not sure why the controller insisted on 22L which is the shortest runway at JFK. 22R would at least have been understandable, or even 31L depending on winds. Edit: Watched further on, yeah 31L was definitely not an option with that much tailwind.

[@mikek5298]

Instead of “editing” your useless comment, written before you even watched the whole video, why don’t you do us a favor and just delete it. It is meaningless in context of the complete video.

[@m4nu507]

22R has a displaced threshold, only about 7000 of landing distance.

[@BLAB-it5un]

A bit unfortunate that pilots making a high speed emergency landing in a heavy had to have a last minute alert to nearby traffic. Nitpicking perhaps and I realize how crowded JFK airspace is and already with the chaos of clearing the area for an opposite direction landing so here's hoping the helicopter needed to be the area and that the spacing alert was really just an abundance of caution so as not to surprise already busy pilots if they sighted it without the alert.

[@dafa5911]

I was so hoping to hear Obet's voice

[@AnoNymous-it8vi]

Yeah me too

[@markgo5624]

it shows they are really trained well by obet

[@nendwr]

Wow, they really did need 4L: E hold short of FB.

[@lozzzafilms]

What is it with NY air traffic control. The poor pilot was made to request 4L about a dozen times !!

[@MarsJenkar]

New York is a very busy airspace, and JFK is a very busy airport. Lot of planes landing and taking off, which gets disrupted if an emergency occurs, especially if it's a landing that goes the "wrong way" down the runway. ATC was trying to find a less disruptive way to accommodate the emergency without compromising safety, but there wasn't one in this case. 13R was longer but had no ILS approach (and according to other comments has a navigational hazard--downtown Manhattan, possibly--that wouldn't have allowed a long final approach). 22L was going in the right direction but was too short of a runway, and stopping on that runway would have likely caused its tires to melt or catch fire ("...otherwise our tires are in the 'melt zone'..."). I'm guessing there was some issue with landing on 22R instead of 4L (same runway but in the opposite direction) that wasn't mentioned here, though my guess is that it wouldn't really have been less of a disruption, and the airplane stops closer to the airport going in the 4L direction. (I'm eyeballing the runways on Google Maps to get an idea of what's going on.)

[@incremental_failure]

To be clear that is an 747-8F.

[@gutschke]

Either that, or something really nefarious happened to the passengers. I didn't catch that at first and was rather puzzled by the 3 POB

[@jadenkhoohoukit4573]

Its a cargo flight

[@coma13794]

2:37 "I'm just making coordinations with the tower now..." is what he said (not a huge difference, granted).

[@barryo5158]

Excellent!

[@Dana_Danarosana]

That first controller sure sounds like Patrick Harten (handled Sully)

[@AndrewAbraham83]

Dumb this down for a non pilot. What was the reason for rejecting a longer runway? Something about type or direction of approach but didn't understand it.

[@sinjinkincaid]

Basically they couldn’t comply with the restrictions of an approach to the longer runway, length of the RWY doesn’t matter if you can’t get to it :)

[@kevbrown1867]

The longer runway would have been using the Canarsie approach that is a turning approach that requires a lot more skill kinda like the approach to the old old Hong Kong airport. At 190 kts it would have been pretty hairy

[@AndrewAbraham83]

@@kevbrown1867 oooh tight turn at high speed. That makes sense.

[@trilight3597]

With flaps issues you need a long and straight final to land safely and line up. Runway is longer but would you rather go 50 mph straight without brakes or try to make a right turn without brakes?

[@cassandratq9301]

I thought there was more instrumentation on the runway they asked for.

[@Davros-vi4qg]

When the pilot knows his plane better than the ATC, good to see the teamwork working. 🎉 Who suspects thats an ex fighter pilot going.. I can put this anywhere u like, how much junk do u want to clear afterwards 😜

[@drunkdriver]

Cathay doesnt really hire ex-fighter jockies

[@GE90-76B]

22L only have 8400‘ 2560m , let a 748F with over 190KTS speed landing on that runway?......

[@comptiger5000]

The controllers don't have the data to determine landing performance, but they do know what approaches are available. It sounded like they were offering Cathay any runway they could provide a suitable ILS approach for, then it was up to Cathay to look at the landing performance numbers and determine what would work.

[@thebiffer100]

Imagine this exact scenario back in the Kai Tak days doing IGS checkerboard 13! I am retired from flying but I was a lucky "survivor" and really miss those approaches. And that was when there were NO reported issues. Great job fellas.

[@fredMplanenut]

Great co-operation.

[@georgeconway4360]

22L/04R is the shortest runway at JFK, only 8400 feet long.

[@chrisbungostudios]

That 8,400 foot distance might be calculated based on the displaced threshold. If that's the case, then there's quite a bit more runway than 8,400 feet.

[@georgeconway4360]

@@chrisbungostudios No, there is no displaced threshold on 04R or 22L. They are normally used as a landing Runways. I know 04R was a CAT2/3 runway with all the required lighting. I recall at one recurrent sim check the Check Airman gave us the numbers for 04R on departure. He then checked the T/O performance and acknowledged I was correct. Airlift was departing 22R one day for LAX when the latest RVR put them below mins for T/O. They checked their Jepps and saw they were legal for 22L. Problem was they did not check theirT/O performance. Very low RVR. They were fairly heavy going to LAX. They dragged the aft belly through the approach lights for 04R. Did extensive damage but stayed in the air. The DC8 was a tough airplane.

[@chrisbungostudios]

@@georgeconway4360 Ooops, right. I misread your original post and thought you were talking about 4L which is what was the runway in question in the actual video.

[@georgeconway4360]

@@chrisbungostudios The controller kept offering 04R when he needed a long runway. Depending on the actual winds I would probably opted for 13R with 14,500 feet of runway and told them I wanted to turn a 5 mile final if possible. That would require using a chunk of LGA’s airspace for a very short time.

[@chrisbungostudios]

@@georgeconway4360 Yep. I only watched this video once, but I think ATC mentioned 13R and the pilots rejected a "Canarsie-type of" approach. Anyway... it all worked out in the end.

[@tonytang5452]

CX 💯

[@talamioros]

Question, isn't it usual for pilot monitoring to handle all comms? I hear both pilots taking turns on the radio unless somehow he's switching between Canto and Brit accent xD

[@evdl3101]

I had to look up CANARSIE. I understand that it is not desirable with high speed. So 4L is another option and they had to stop opposite traffic (Landing I assume 22R ?). So why was the opposite runway 22R not available?

[@kickedinthecalfbyacow7549]

22R has a very deep inset threshold.

[@mtk52983]

The question I have is, if they were landing 22L, why not offer 22R as that has an ILS approach? Is 22R's landing distance shorter than 4L's? I understand it is the same runway, but sometimes displaced thresholds on one end could impact available distance.

[@saxmanb777]

22R has a landing distance available of only 7700 feet, much short than 22L. 4L does not have a displaced threshold so the 12,000 feet is available.

[@mtk52983]

Thank you. I was suspecting that that might have been the issue if ATC was so gung ho about 22L.

[@adb012]

@@mtk52983 ... Actually.... 04L (the one they used) has an LDA of 11010ft (there is actually a short displaced threshold, that's why not all the 12079 ft of runway are available) 31L has an LDA of 11248 (a tad longer than 04L), and also has an ILS approach. I wonder why they didn't even consider that one. Wind? The rest are all either shorter or no ILS. By the way, 22L (the one TWR was offering) has ILS but it's LDA is 8400ft (no displaced threshold). Much shorter than04L the crew requested. You have a 747 with no flaps, minimum approach speed of 190kts... I don't think it was good to ask them to use 22L.

[@staymad7206]

@@adb012 the flaps were fine, its the leading edge slats that werent working.

[@mtk52983]

@@adb012 considering they still used much of 4L I am not sure they could take 31L with the winds

[@JAMESWUERTELE]

Ok I have a question for the professionals. Would it have helped them with such a high speed, to dump some fuel?

[@mikkotuomi7884]

Not really. He said they had 38800lbs of fuel, for safe reserves and in case of a go around, they could have only dumped around 10k lbs, which doesn't really have a material difference in the landing distance required.

[@rbarreira2]

A quick Google search says the 747-8F can carry around 400.8k lbs of fuel, so they were down to less than 10% fuel.

[@WilliamW1979]

Also another thing to consider, the tires will have more contact with the ground being heavier making it easier to stop so dropping fuel would have made the landing harder. The more weight on the plane, the more it presses down on the tires which gives more surface area from the tires pressing harder on the ground to spread the tire out more. Luckily, the tires are completely filled with Nitrogen (Can't use normal tire air you use in cars because of the lack of air pressure in the air would make the tires burst, so straight nitrogen is used only in airplane tires for the higher altitudes). But back to the main point, more surface area means better stopping power.

[@mikkotuomi7884]

@@WilliamW1979 You just made that up didn't you. More weight = longer stopping distance, no ifs and buts.

[@WilliamW1979]

@@mikkotuomi7884 No, more weight = more tire surface touching the ground for stopping power.

[@n978jg]

I can see that ATC is looking at the videos from youtube... and saying... its seem that we are been presented as "this is my airspace, I can do what I want".. and know they are coming together to do what I know 99.9% of ATC people do.. " we are here to help". Go change for ATC NYC

[@SkyWatchAviation]

On a no flaps landing isn’t the way to perform one to turn off both engines and put gear down

[@philmiller2465]

Au contraire, if you have a situation like that, you'd need to flap *very* hard ;-)

[@kickedinthecalfbyacow7549]

Putting the gear down is a good idea, you should do that for most landings. But shutting down the engines would just be making extra work for your self.

[@alex680abc]

Isn’t the Cathay 747 retired?

[@YouCanSeeATC]

This one is flying

[@alex680abc]

Ok.By the way I’m a Hong Kong Citizen and I like Cathay planes

[@mmmbilly]

Makes a change for the Kennedy controllers to not be a total arrogant asshole and shout at the pilot for messing up his day.

[@frankrosenbloom]

Only three souls on board? Did I miss something? A Boeing 747 flying from Anchorage with only three on board? Was it a freighter?

[@mudchair16]

Yep, Cathay does heaps of freight.

[@tiadaid]

Cathay no longer have any passenger 747s, only cargo 747-8s.

[@markgo5624]

Yep cathay only operates 747s on freight only. 777 on pax

[@Ndub1036]

Hey maybe if you’re declaring an emergency for them stop worrying about having to move arrivals/departures and spacing guys

[@Davros-vi4qg]

Huge commercial airport, they gonna explore the options, pilots and ATC respectful of each other, explaining each others needs, ATC always favouring Pilot’s intentions. Could a less experienced crew have been ‘requested’ into a less favourable outcome?

[@Ndub1036]

@@Davros-vi4qg you don’t 360 an emergency for spacing. Move aircraft

[@mlx39996]

@@Ndub1036they weren't in a life threatening emergency. no mayday

[@Ndub1036]

@@mlx39996 doesn’t matter. Emergency aircraft

[@mlx39996]

@@Ndub1036 it kind of does matter...

[@Michigan_Adventures]

I understand the controllers are between a rock and a hard place, but if I were the pilots, I would be a bit annoyed to add spacing to the list of things I have to worry about or that will affect me....

[@andrewtaylor9610]

The pilots didn't have to worry about spacing; they just had to fly a heading.

[@Michigan_Adventures]

@@andrewtaylor9610 lol I knew someone would say that. I feel like anything that adds to the abnormal workload isn't ideal though not the end of the world in this situation.

[@mikkotuomi7884]

Rather do that turn than go around...

[@andrewtaylor9610]

@@Michigan_Adventures A turn isn't abnormal and has far lower workload impact than a go around (as another commenter has also pointed out). The controllers can't just forget about every other aircraft in the sky while the pan aircraft (because that's what it'd be in any other country, rather than an emergency) runs its checklists.

[@aljack1979]

Why be annoyed? The pilot will always get what they want, just stay professional and courteous. Like these guys did

[@cassandratq9301]

Does "3" souls on board mean 300? And if not, why was a 747 only carrying 3 people?

[@frost9041]

It's a freight flight, take another look at the video thumbnail.

[@mikefung9145]

Cathay put 4 digit numbers for their cargo flights

[@n978jg]

tail wind for 4L? only option? mmmm some data is missing here.

[@kickedinthecalfbyacow7549]

04L was the longest available runway in JFK.

[@bunglejoy3645]

Where was a 747 going tgat only had three people on were they repositioning after a previous flight

[@collegeofwinterhold8793]

It's a freighter.

[@mmeyers111]

I wonder if this was Pilot-Obet?

[@Korpenko]

There is no speed restriction on the canarsie 13R approach, I'm a bit surprised they refused. The turn is not too tight for 190kt.

[@sma7141]

Bit tight on the rollout for 190kt

[@dss44357]

Was Wx impossible for the 13R visual? Seems ~13kts more headwind and a fair bit longer as well. Understand they didn’t want to make the turn but maybe hard to make the descent at 190kts visual too?

[@mikkotuomi7884]

Yes there is a speed limit. The minimums are only for cats A-D, Category D approach speed is up to 165kts. Try it in the sim for 13R, there's no way in heck you can make that turn to 13R at 190kts, especially with a right crosswind. The procedure only guarantees obstacle clearance inside the circling approach area up to speeds of 165kts. This actually is an issue on a 748 even without a flap failure with high winds, as Vapp can easily be in the 170s.

[@love2fly558]

Wow, what a waste. A rwy long enough to land a shuttle, winds favoring this rwy by only 10 degrees, and not an option because it doesn’t have a straight-in? I know the area is crazy with LGA and EWR, but still, wasting one of the longest rwy?

[@ryanabrahams9861]

He had lots of fuel

[@mikkotuomi7884]

He had about 1.5 hours, it's not that much.

[@BabyMakR]

less than 10% of a full load and if they needed to do a go around...

[@markgo5624]

it's a 747, it may vary

[@ghostrider-be9ek]

meanwhile aircanada parks their 787 ON the active runway in toronto recently after a high speed landing - and asks for firefighters to look for heat - were they expecting ice cream instead? jesus

[@mikefung9145]

Expecting hot brakes

[@ghostrider-be9ek]

@@mikefung9145 yea no kidding, but they should have moved off the active and waited for heat to dissipate

[@mikefung9145]

@@ghostrider-be9ek if they expect hot brakes, they also account for possibility of fire and evacuation, you don’t want to waste time just because you might impede the runway. Runway is gonna be closed for inspection after the incident anyway

[@ghostrider-be9ek]

@@mikefung9145 no, you always want to vacate any and all runways if you are not on fire, and not disabled - this is the norm for most airlines

[@vicz5853]

English native speaker pilot

[@timanderson5543]

Are’nt they called slats?

[@MrSchwabentier]

The general term is leading edge high lift device. Slats are the most common type of them found on most airliners. However the 747 has Kruger flaps on the leading edge. Another type is the leading edge droop flap, found for example on the A380

[@harrydoherty8299]

that’s the shortest runway.

[@aljack1979]

Brit Captain I'd say

[@tiadaid]

Sounds more South African.

[@Boisebus]

Mayday Mayday Mayday and it's all yours. We don't do no spacing crap.

[@drn13355]

If only a master of aviation was there like you then there would never be a problem. I was a Blackhawk crew chief for 21 years. Flew all over the world and nowhere on the planet I'd rather be flying than the USA. Best ATC on planet earth.

[@wizerdjuice9589]

Pros ATC and crew.

[@GWNorth-db8vn]

@@JoaoPaulo-wi4ie - If it wasn't an emergency, they wouldn't have needed to use a different runway from everyone else and have traffic cleared from in front of them. The airplane has an issue that's affecting one set of flight surfaces, and issues have a habit of spreading. This was an emergency whether the pilots want to say the words or not.

[@RLTtizME]

@@JoaoPaulo-wi4ie Wrong.

[@N1120A]

Flight control failure is an automatic emergency declaration by ATC

[@bsmith1164]

ATC, stop saying "heavy" every transmission. Is this an FAA requirement?

[@slasherfun]

Yes. Specialists must use the word “heavy” as part of the identification in communications with or about heavy jet aircraft. www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/fs_html/chap4_section_2.html

[@stevemorris3710]

The Pilots too should be using the term, it's a warning to other aircraft of wake turbulence.

[@malahammer]

hard luck!

[@jackoho5703]

Required to say heavy when they’re above a certain weight

[@darrellgordon7456]

Its required, part of the FAA's phraseology , also heavy is always categorized as the maximum takeoff weight, regardless of the aircraft's actual weight at the time.

[@jansichermann351]

"How Many Souls?" "3" "Roger" that's gotta be a mistake.

[@smeezekitty]

No mistake, its a cargo flight

[@malahammer]

lol

[@geh065]

You’re right, none of them were called Roger. 😜

[@kenholt3859]

It's Roger, Dunn, and Oveur. Just don't call them Shirley

[@weazelzinacan8866]

You sure there was no Shirley...?