Your Attention Has Been STOLEN | Peter Boghossian & Johann Hari

Johann Hari is a British-Swiss author and journalist, known for his books and his articles in The Independent and Huffington Post. Since 2015, his writing has primarily dealt with the war on drugs, mental illness, and decreasing attention spans. His books on these subjects include Chasing the Scream: The First and Last Days of the War on Drugs, Lost Connections, and Stolen Focus.
In this conversation, Johann and I talk about the variables vying for our attention and their effects on society. Though Johann mentions twelve variables in his book, we focus primarily on social media. Johann and I offer observations of people addicted to technology, and we discuss evidence-based ways to combat this problem. Additionally, we speak about algorithms and their incentives to keep users "angry and scrolling."
Finally, we take the conversation to the implications our shortened attention spans have on interpersonal relationships, political participation, and democracy.
Johann's books: johannhari.com/
Johann on X: / johannhari101
Johann's Ted Talks: www.ted.com/search?q=johann%2...
Chapters
0:00 Intro
2:40 The "Attention Crisis"
5:00 Twitter/phone addiction
12:05 Real-life examples of technology addiction
24:00 How social media addicts us / what to do about it
37:50 Public ownership of information
40:40 TikTok & algorithms
57:40 Social media & democracy
1:05:52 Lack of ability to listen
1:16:45 How humans misunderstand each other
1:19:05 Extrinsic vs intrinsic factors
1:26:40 Attention Economy
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⸺LINKS⸺
Podcast: "Conversations with Peter Boghossian": pod.link/1650150225
Website | peterboghossian.com/
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⸺BOOKS⸺
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⸺SOCIAL MEDIA⸺
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__________
#peterboghossian #attentioneconomy #democracy

[@drpeterboghossian]

If your attention span allows it, catch up on my other conversational interviews here: kzbin.info/aero/PLYNjnJFU-62sS7o8YLGJGe7RiKneIYfU2

[@LouisGedo]

28:45 😆 🤣 😂 😆 🤣 😂

[@markbowden7238]

the British public are collectively so thick, only 6 people in the UK know Britain used Agent Orange.

[@Globaldave1970]

Loads of good stuff there. All in good time.

[@dutenheffer1565]

Try the KZbin station “get sleepy” instead of games. They start with a guided meditation then read you a story with sleep effects added in. It’s pretty decent. I imagine a hundred years ago you would have been elite wealthy to afford this service now it costs a few cents in electricity and internet

[@lynnm6413]

I haven’t used twitter for more than 5 years, I don’t use my insta or fb, don‘t have tik tok and love long podcasts in my first foreign language (English) such as this… I grew up without any digital device because my parents were anti-new stuff on principal….I hated not having a game boy or being able to play video games … never had a console, only a TV which was still black/white in my early years… I would never have thought this would be a net benefit, but it‘s starting to look like it is…amazing!

[@904daniela]

This reminds me of a time when I was teaching English to adults. Student: I wonder if it's raining - and takes out her phone to check. I poked my head out of the window and said, "nope ". The class looked at me as if I'd performed some kind of miracle.

[@newpilgrim]

🤣...or you'll go crazy 😆

[@cnrspiller3549]

I rang my young daughter while she was visiting her mother. "Is it sunny where you are?" "Yes. It's Minecraft, it's always sunny" "No. Is it actually sunny? Go and look out the window" "Yes, it's sunny." "Right. That wasn't too difficult was it." "Yeah, but I told you it was sunny in the first place" "Hang on. Did you actually go and look out the window?" "Yes." "Was it a real window?" "Yes. Of course it was real. I built it myself" Genuine conversation with a digital-age 7yr old.

[@grannyannie2948]

Even teenagers in my region aren't that stupid.

[@grannyannie2948]

​@@cnrspiller3549I know lots of kids that age with much more common sense. Yes they go online. But they do other things as well like feeding their pets and caring for chickens and playing on the swings. But kids are funny. When my g daughter was 2.5 years. I remember her coming to our house on a lovely summer day. She walked in and stamped her foot and said Mummy didn't put my coat on so now I'll be freezy and cold. At her age she couldn't remember summer. On cold days the whole family now says it's freezy and cold in memory.

[@adiellevin2128]

My phone's weather app lists the probability of rain as 100% when it is raining, which I find way funnier than it should be. It's as though it has to maintain the pretense of uncertainty so you keep checking in.

[@lodger135]

Peter you are such a positive force in our complicated, divided, society these days. I hope you realize how grateful we are to have you out there. Stay well.

[@drpeterboghossian]

That means a lot to me. Thank you so much.

[@peterford5408]

Yes, he's great. Unfortunately things are a bit more complicated with Hari. I'm not saying he's a bad person. And I have no problem with people criticising social media companies. But his history means you shouldn't really rely on his claims being accurate. In particular, for an assessment of the evidence claims in Hari's book on this topic, listen to episode 17 of a podcast called "The Studies Show", which is presented by two science writers.

[@desertrose0601]

Yeah I deleted my Instagram, Facebook, Twitter about a year ago. Never felt better. I still use KZbin way too much but I don’t check replies so that helps. It’s mainly an input machine for me. I still need to try and unplug more though. But it’s a start.

[@drpeterboghossian]

Deleting FaceBook was one of my best decisions.

[@nova4005]

Me too, I deleted facebook 5 years ago, I still have a Twitter account but I rarely look at it, I never got instagram. I'm still on KZbin and rumble watching 85% educational (I consider this podcast Peter does educational) and spiritual videos, and 15% pure entertainment. I'm probably on a little too much too, but it was a lifesaver after my divorce and then being quite isolated during covid. I'm starting to cut down naturally these days and enjoy quiet or some music.

[@dutenheffer1565]

I was going to leave a snarky comment but I feel defeated already

[@mindyourownfuukingbiz6737]

I was humming and hawing about deleting it, as I'd set up my account in a covert way years ago, but then ArseBook insisted I chose to pay monthly or except their RIDICULOUS T&C (while lying to our faces CLAIMING that it was ONLY about advertising 😂) so that made my mind up..... I pulled down all my photographs and requested my data and closed it after posting my WHY I'M LEAVING..... Hoping to inspire others ♥

[@DrGreenGiant]

Similar here. Got off Facebook in 2020. I highly recommend the video on KZbin that Tom Scott did at the Royal Society on "the algorithm." It goes into a lot more depth about how it functions and leads to polarisation and extremism. I was very addicted to Facebook and have watched it grow since I got my account in 2006 back when you needed an academic email address to sign up. It was pretty rubbish then, and over time got amazing, then crashed. Really really good at its peak. For me the turning point was when it allowed third party apps and company profiles, possibly a coincidence. I've been a lot healthier since I got off it though. KZbin has filled the gap, especially since I don't have a TV licence nor Netflix nor Prime. I'm starting to do things like going outside and seeing real people rather than their pixelated representation lol. Despite being a work from home programmer!

[@dettroitdominadora]

I love that you're covering this. Ive been saying that screens are the cause of several of our social problems for years now. Depression, ADD and ADHD, body image issues, loneliness, even obesity. I put myself on a social media diet a couple years ago, and that alone has made a world of difference in how I see the world and my personal interactions. A couple of examples: I no longer succumb to rage bait, and when i go out with friends, my phone stays put away.

[@larscooleman8221]

Good point. Myself, i only go on yt, thats my only "social media".

[@dettroitdominadora]

@larscooleman8221 yt feels less like social media tho and more like a content source. Like, I mostly use it to listen to different podcasts while I'm doing other tasks - it's alot less interactive, and I rarely get sucked into conversations over stupid shit.

[@sarasamson5922]

Older Gen X here, an early adopter of tech but not social media. I didn't get into social media back when it was MySpace, then didn't get into FB, IG, Twitter, dating apps or any of the others, although most friends, family, coworkers I knew did. I access LinkedIn only when I'm looking for work. I just always saw it as a privacy issue, and the thought of 'following' or being 'followed' mortified me. I ignore ads and spam on Gmail and YT. So I've been on a social media diet for around 20 years. And yet, I still have no attention span, have multi-tasked through this interview even! I think (for me) it's also a fear of missing out on what else I think may be worth my attention at the same time.

[@Benboy1980]

@@dettroitdominadorasame for me, I try to avoid insta if I can, and I listen to educational interesting stuff. Never been on Twitter and never will!

[@randomhumanoidblob4506]

I have a book from when screen use was pretty much still limited to fixed positions, and they warned exactly this. At the time it was laughed off out of hand and these people considered crooks but they've been absolutely right. The scary thing was how much research was repressed or sidelined, so mighty was the lure of advertising money. But the research has been there and consistent for years, but who would know? Certainly not busy parents who don't have the time to fall down interesting rabbit-holds or the constitution for the ensuing fights. I can't remember who it was by...Neil something? If anyone's interested I'll dig it out, but we did know this stuff. However, it was not in the interests of big money that we KNEW we knew, so...

[@davejlh4988]

According to my grandparents, our attention spans have been slowly getting destroyed by technology ever since the invention of the television. The only surprising thing for them is that our eyes have not gone square. My parents thought that it would be computer games that would make my generation dumber than them and they were probably right about that but I think the difference with social media is the way it doesn’t just distract us but actually gives us the opportunity to consistently get attention and therefore crave attention much more. It appeals to our narcissistic nature and has the power to transform personalities. I know men in their forties who have seemingly regressed to insecure teenagers in their quest for online attention.

[@grannyannie2948]

I was just saying that to my husband the other day. In my mother's generation it was comic books, in mine it was TV and in my kids it was computer games. And today it is the internet. Kid's eyes are not going square but I see a lot more kids wearing glasses than previously. Although these kids are often online even my adolescent gkids are not on social media. Their millennial parents learnt the hard way how soul destroying social media is.

[@griffinsdad9820]

Few things. That surprise that our eyes aren't sqr is funny. That your parents and grandparents are intelligent and maybe in education or educated, I don't know. Lastly, and not that it matters, you see social media as more hot than cold, like it's a tool to get attention and not just used to watch stuff feels like you're pretty young. I'm glad you have such a thoughtful fam.

[@nova4005]

Good points. 👍🏽 Part of our psychology is insecure and needs mirroring from the outside. When we get mirrored positively for who we think we are, we feel good, when we don't, we usually feel some kind of bad. Everyone has a personality psychology no matter how old they are, so I'm not surprised you're 40-year-old friend is using social media to get that kind of mirroring.

[@465marko]

@@nova4005 Great points 👍🏽 Excellent comment. I agree that we can be insecure and need mirroring from outside. That it makes us feel good and the lack of it can make us feel bad. And we're all prone to it, no matter what age we are, so you're right that it's not surprising even 40-year-olds are affected. (I couldn't help it. I really couldn't!!!!)

[@nova4005]

@@465marko 😅

[@nicoledickens2366]

I just want to add a comment for engagement and now I'll go back to my life. Thanks! Pete, you always introduce me to wonderful people.

[@dashman36]

The BBC example had me LOL so hard. You can hardly find an institution which hates and despise the people which allegedly serve, more than the BBC.

[@michaelhart1072]

No. Yes the BBC is far from perfect and getting worse but it’s still better than almost all media outlets

[@davidjohnbonnett]

My neck aches from nodding so much. Keep em' coming Peter.

[@drpeterboghossian]

Thank you!

[@Liisa3139]

FINALLY I found someone who could break down the mechanism of attention deficit and, also, the polarization happening in societies all over the world. This might have been the most important video I have watched on YT, on any platform really. Thank you.❣

[@PWMoze]

Thanks Peter, your content continues to be excellent. I've been concerned about this addictive 'attention defecit' social media culture for some time, how much it influences our pre-occupations and how it feeds upon anger and frustration, while simultaneously isolating all of us. Your content at least makes me feel like I'm part of a sensible conversation about it. Keep it up mate, the UK stuff is great.

[@jaydarkmoore]

I love Johan Hari. Enjoy his books and his talks. Very clear, eloquent, logic and coherent man

[@gilly5094]

And a plagiarist, it would appear.

[@MrsRitchieBlackmore]

Fantastic conversation. I'm so glad I came of age before smartphones, as I don't believe I would have ever had the attention span to develop hobbies/skills such as painting, playing an instrument, cooking, needlework, etc. to the level where I could make a living from some of them (which I have). I feel like much of the younger generation's lack of practical skills is because they never get bored enough to want to, say, whittle wood, and even if they did, the time it takes to actually get good at it would discourage them. I can't even remember the last time I was bored enough to try my hand at a new hobby, and that kinda sucks.

[@grannyannie2948]

I don't know. My gsons love KZbin and computer games. But they also enjoy woodwork and sketching. As for myself I used to spend hours reading. Now I find myself listening to conversations like this. The difference being I can listen through headphones whilst cooking or cleaning which I couldn't do whilst reading.

[@drpeterboghossian]

Thank you! I appreciate that.

[@MiaogisTeas]

One thing you can do is to get a fully dumb watch instead of a smartwatch. Preferably one that tells only the time and requires winding. I love Vortic Watches for this very fact, plus you're getting a piece of American horological history.

[@SydneyBristow0788]

2:26 This is key. I try to pick up my phone to research hobbies that I can physically do so my hands are busy not playing with my phone - crafting/gardening for example.

[@L_Martin]

I have to say I found it pretty grating the way he talked about Graham Linehan in this (what is the point in not naming someone when you name so many details about him as to make it blatantly obvious who you mean?) I am reminded of Peter’s friend Gad Saad who talks about fixating on “sniffing the cork” instead of tasting the wine. I want to know what in Graham’s beliefs the man finds objectionable, specifically. That men aren’t women, that LGB kids are being “stee real lized”, that men shouldn’t be in women’s pr/ isons or r* shelters…? I think reading between the lines, what he objects to with Graham is HOW he states his position on “x” the tweeting site. So it’s a tone thing. If not, I wonder if this guy can see the reasonableness in any GC stance on gender? I was surprised and quite depressed that Peter didn’t stick up for Graham a bit, or even feel brave enough to name him if the chap is going to mention him repeatedly in the same breath at Milo… Graham was just lately doing street epistemology on your show and he was fantastic. If this guy was making those comments about James, who is I’d say MORE prone to wiling out on x than Graham, i think we all know Peter would have stuck up for him and not just left him as the unnamed tragic figure who fell to x derangement. Graham has had basically everyone in his life, friends in the entertainment industry, turn their back on him for speaking out about the harms of gender identity theory. It was a very Jon Ronson “oh dear, something went wrong with him” approach the guest affected. How are Graham’s views on this or his way of expressing them even so different to Peter’s? Gender identity does quickly become a crazy making topic of discussion-as Peter himself is well aware! I do not think Graham needs singling out for throwing it all away by going loopy on x, anymore than James needs singling out for it, or Kath Stock for that matter. Graham says the same as Kath, he is just a comedian who says it in his own terms, calling gender theory (correctly) a dangerous nonsense.

[@sally5983]

Oh, I'm slow, I had no idea he was talking about Graham , who btw I am a BIG fan of and agree with his stance on Trans issues. To your point though, as the interviewer if Peter pulled him up, wouldn't the conversation get derailed into the trans topic. People are entitled to agree and disagree with who ever and isn't great some people can do that and still have a civilized discussion.

[@L_Martin]

@@sally5983 I know what you mean, but I have frequently seen Peter give a quick “I disagree, but carry on”, and nothing is derailed. He actually just did it in the Matt Goodwin interview and it stood out to me because of how well they were able to quickly register disagreement and not get derailed. (In that case it was disagreeing on if a particular institution was ideologically captured, Peter literally interrupted Matt to say, “that place is captured.” Matt: “no it collects good data, so to continue...”) This guest in this interview repeatedly infers the 3 of them (him, Peter and Graham) are sort of friends, that makes it even worse imo. “Our mutual friend I think we can agree lost his mind on x” and Peter just stays quiet. Again, Peter’s good buddy is James Lindsay! I find it hard to believe if they were talking about James (who is a little gremlin on x compared to Graham) Peter would have sat still to hear him talked of like that. I doubt frankly that this guy would ever say the stuff he is saying here to Graham’s face either.

[@DRV110]

Is he not referring to Owen Jones? He called them a left wing guy.

[@L_Martin]

@@DRV110 Graham is on the left (the left before it went mental that is). He refers to the great book the person has just put out, and Graham’s book cane out end of last year.

[@465marko]

@@L_Martin But if he thinks the book is thoughtful and well-written, I'm not sure that jives with his comments on twitter being "driven by rage and hate"...? (Because the book talks about him being cancelled, I think?). Maybe it is him, I don't know. Just that if Johann disagrees with his twitter comments - and it sounded like it to me, then he probably wouldn't be praising the book so much. But I don't know.

[@marilynmccarthy6098]

Well Peter my congratulations to you and Johan. You both managed to steal my attention for the full 1:35 of your video. Usually I have a hard time getting past the 18 minute mark on KZbin videos. Good job!

[@cmmndrblu]

I'm not on twitter I closed my account, but I will say that it was one of the few places where I could talk about being a gay man who isn't queer and isn't interested in the slightest by the QT. It's not just social media, it's the chilling effect of not being allowed to state the obvious, state an opinion, without being accused of (insert topic here) PHOBIA. When I was coming out I spoke to people, I was 15, I spoke to people who would listen to me who previously were afraid of gay men etc, and it changed their opinion- because I spoke, I engaged, I had a dialogue I didn't write them off etc. With social media we are propelled into our cliques and then shown posts by those who disagree with us so we can get in a tiz and stay online, out attention haemorrhaging out our eyeballs and into the pockets of big tech Californians.

[@drpeterboghossian]

Interesting. I’ve heard that from a lot of my gay friends.

[@cpt.redhood]

Thanks again, everyone should hear this conversation, especially if they have children.

[@drpeterboghossian]

Thanks for watching!

[@conrad1on]

I haven't seen this yet, but given that Peter's been on a tear about plagiarism lately, if it doesn't come up in this podcast it would be a huge wasted opportunity. This dude literally had to leave Britain and move to America because of it.

[@newpilgrim]

Thank you so much for this! I appreciate you so much! And, thank you Johann Hari for recognizing the need for ways to bridge the gap. We can't expect people to just put it down. I'm one of those strange creatures that doesn't use social media or my phone. It's no judgement, but dropping my perspective here. I see addiction. We need to find ways to bridge the gap.

[@callewag]

This is fantastic, thank you for sharing! Very thought provoking. A few years ago I deleted my Facebook app (but not my account). So if I want to look on Facebook I actually have to make the effort to do so in a browser. I instantly felt more in control of it 😊

[@drpeterboghossian]

Best thing I ever did was to delete FaceBook.

[@olly5896]

Given Peter's recent comments on plagiarism, surprised to see him platform one of Britain's most well known plagiarists.

[@dutenheffer1565]

With the checks in place you would be a fool to not plagiarize. Just think of all the time and effort one can save by just copying other people.

[@dutenheffer1565]

Thinking is hard and takes allot of time. If you can plagiarize just as easily then you’ll be punished for your virtues

[@dutenheffer1565]

Hell, how else could I be self employed as a small business owner and working on my third PhD? That shit would be impossible without some copying

[@anynimus1617]

Ever since reading JH's book twice I've slowly reduced my social media consumption to a point where it is now limited to a brief visit to Facebook once or twice a week to visit family members and old school friends and wish happy birthday. I don't engage with Facebook at all other wise. I am happier, calmer and I am certain that it isn't a coincidence that these steps helped push me away from the looney far left. Of course some people are now convinced that I am far right, but ... oh well.

[@earlducaine1085]

Careful, diligent, serious (including morally serious) writing makes me smarter than I am. It concentrates reason and consciousness, which is ordinarily diffuse and flickering. It stands to reason that the opposite kind of writing would have the opposite effect.

[@Alex_Afrasiabi]

Subscription based models consider quantity as quality. Source: me, 16.5 years making subscription content. He’s right in that sub models don’t care how long you’re online just that you remain subscribed, but they are also well aware of churn and how it can ravage your user base.

[@annewrites...8385]

Awesome conversation. Thank you, gentleman.

[@ruthhorowitz7625]

Spot on analysis!

[@MiaogisTeas]

Instead of a K-safe you can get what's called a StopBox. They're meant to be for handguns but I bought 2, one is for my phone. Because I run a business and have a kid, I need to have it immediately accessible. I can hear it ring, but I can't see it and I have to be very intentional about getting it out. Sometimes I forget about it for hours at a time.

[@daheikkinen]

You will pry my daily cat videos out of my cold, dead hands. 😻

[@stvbrsn]

Very cool. I didn’t know Johann had a new book, and I hadn’t heard anything from him in a while… I can’t think of anybody I’d rather interview him than Peter.

[@CaroCoffee123]

You have the best guests, Peter. Loved this one. Thanks!

[@thefamilyfruitforest]

My tech addiction is watching people on KZbin tell me to get off KZbin.

[@timeweston]

Fascinating conversation. The result of intellectual curiosity.

[@havocgr1976]

That story of the man with the dead mother, I actually have a similar story that helped me get rid of my World of Warcraft addiction instantly.Was playing with some random guy and he said wait I got to answer the phone, came back later and we continued to play, then I asked him, and his father had just died from a heartattack, and he just continued playing!

[@DaboooogA]

Great discussion thanks - Johann can really talk!

[@kingclover1395]

I don't have the same desire to read books as I used to have. I usually would read a couple books a week, and now it might take me a month or two to finish a book, if I finish it at all. I keep buying a lot of books but they're just piling up unread. And I know that it's because of the internet. I just find it easier to be online now instead of doing some of the things that I used to do. I think it's terrible.

[@yourewelcomeamericathepodc1601]

Lost Connections is one of my all time favorite books!!! So excited for this! ❤

[@JulieFishman-gs4zg]

Social media is so destructive. This is why I never comment on KZbin videos.

[@Meg-pv1iy]

Fantastic job, Peter. You’re a light in this world

[@freddieoblivion6122]

I'd often ask people this question when they ask me what I'm doing with my life: What more do you want than a neverending stream of interesting shows and conversation piped directly into your living room? Been hooked for 10 years - I can't help it.

[@larscooleman8221]

I feel ya, but, i think, these kind podcast are at least better than all other media. So its still some kind of positive addiction

[@aimhigh3701]

If that’s all you want from life that’s sad man.

[@Globaldave1970]

LOl, you need to get out more, mate.

[@Kaget0ra]

Picked up some Di'Angelo-like vibes from this guy.

[@alvaroprietovideos]

🔥 ¡Woo-hoo! I was craving another one of your long videos already, thanks for sharing!

[@drpeterboghossian]

Thanks. More on the way!!

I usually do not like anything i haven't read or watched completely. But i liked this video the moment Peter told his tale about the guy who was playing a game while getting the news that his mother died. I also saw stuff like that and it's horrendous

[@drpeterboghossian]

Agreed. Thank you.

@@drpeterboghossianWelp, i'm looking forward to the next talk. Would like to listen to Mr. Haris book, but Audible won't allow Croatian listeners to do so, for no apparent reason

[@thorshammer138]

I got facebook off my phone and started reading 60 books a year. One of those books was Stolen Focus, which was one of the best books I read in 2022. I also put a screentime widget on my phone, which continually encourages me to put it down lol.

[@zg-it]

I disagree, social media make me so smart. Before social media, I read book. Book take long time. Social media fast

[@JeffCaplan313]

😂

[@stevena.7022]

Buuks? What is buuks?

[@nachhause656]

I believe the proper spelling is chej2kfnfiwid

[@davidpaul9961]

Kevin Malone has entered the chat

[@arielchubb2719]

lol 😂

[@liberality]

Ironic that Peter has Johann Hari on his show after castigating Claudine Gay for plagiarism.

[@victoriahall6789]

It wasn't really a conversation.He just talked and talked. I dont think he even stopped to take a breath.

[@BravoTassia]

Yeah I kinda struggled listening to him too.😂

[@NerdlySquared]

Idk when he unveiled his obviously preferred “grand solution” to this attention problem, is to essentially turn social media into the BBC, it was worth a good hearty chuckle 😅

[@BravoTassia]

@@NerdlySquared😂🤣

[@JustinK617]

​@@NerdlySquaredI found that part terrifying 😂

[@FerristotheBueller]

I commented and went more into depth on this. He is comparable to me being in 10th grade and trying to drag out a class lecture. We have got to call this crap out.

[@aimhigh3701]

An important conversation. Maybe the conversation.

[@SecretAgentPaul]

I feel if you have to lock your phone away to stop yourself from using it, you aren't really dealing with your problem.

[@larscooleman8221]

I like the way you think. Being in a addiction myself, the only way they help you is by saying you need to let the substances out of your life. And like you, i do think, not use is not helping people, it doesnt help you by finding control over your own behaviour. My Achilles is weed, and i would be happier and more motivated that they would say, one day i can handle having weed in the house and only use it at the proper moments instead of a daily use thats serves to nothing. 🙏

[@cnrspiller3549]

​@@larscooleman8221 dude. You can live without weed.

[@matthewbbenton]

I think the argument would be that you’re locking the phone away from apps that were literally designed to be addictive. It’s not a fair fight. Your brain doesn’t stand a chance.

[@racs9606]

If your phone is your only addiction then you probably are dealing with the problem.

[@peterford5408]

You have to 'fight the fire' first in the short term. This should leave you in a better situation for applying long term remedies

[@bryanthomas3687]

1:11:38 Donna Hicks is the professor who writes about dignity, upholding dignity, and dignity violations. Her work is very interesting and worth a read.

[@playnejayne5550]

I knew people in western Colorado who kept the only clock in the house wrapped in a towel in a drawer. That way we had to be very conscious of checking the time.

[@jz5425]

Absolutely fantastic interview God bless Stay safe

[@drpeterboghossian]

Thank you!

[@christinepereira7622]

Went with my sister to a beautiful bar by the sea, and they too are now implementing a protocol for ordering drinks from our phones, it's so depressing that now we can't even have a bit of bants with bar tenders or order a drink without having to put our noses in yet another screen, something similar happening at my local bank, coffee shop, etc, it does feel like we are putting an awful lot of eggs in baskets made of cloud

[@dilloneliassen9622]

I’m glad I grew up in Gen X. The video games were rudimentary and smart phones didn’t exist and I’m thankful now my Boomer parents pushed me to go outside, but I have been giving myself ADD because my job and modern life demand constant clicking in and out of blue screen rectangles.

[@joeanon1415]

Social media is a marketing term used to obscure from many that it is in fact anti social media.

[@edmunddengler7687]

The fact that Johann brings up the BBC as an example of a good model while ignoring the ideological capture and bias that has occurred at the BBC along with the possibility of government control ala the Twitter files, and Peter has never met enthusiastic supporters of Biden or Trump, demonstrates their utter siloing of their experiences, and makes me question any analysis or conclusions they have.

[@grannyannie2948]

Yes I caught that and that's my conclusion as well. Here in Australia the ABC gets more than a billion taxpayers dollars. And it's ideologically captured by the far left. They even host domestic terrorists and support their right of speech but nobody else.

[@grannyannie2948]

My comment about the Australian ABC disappeared. Now he's criticizing Geert Wilders. Really I can't agree with this guy on anything. He's a millennial. It's the millenials who are addicted to social media. Their children use the internet on the TV to do research, to watch KZbin or to play computer games. But they are totally banned from social media. Their parents already know how harmful it is. If they want to talk to other kids they know, they speak on dumb phones. None of them have smart phones. So he's up the wrong tree.

[@BitcoinMeister]

I started to really question him when he praised the BBC and government controlled entities.

[@grannyannie2948]

@@BitcoinMeister That went beyond suspicion and into the realm of being positively evil.

[@nova4005]

Great conversation, thank you! I agree with all of Johan's points, and at the same time it is dangerous not to put his perspective in its wider context. He gives a great example of what I mean by dangerous ignorance of the larger context with his example of leaded gas. While people were caught up in that one issue, the toxins in food, the lead in water pipes in the UD, and the toxins in the environment (glyphosate, metals, plastics) have all increased, and are refucing the intelligence and psychological stability of our children. The unleaded gas movement made the mistake of not galvanizing people to address all serious toxins to children. This is how and why harmful systems have gotten to where they are; people hyper-focusing on one issue without dealing with the system, and it amounts to spinning our wheels when you look at it within the context of a larger time frame, like the past 50-100 years. We no longer have much journalism in the world because media is consolidated. Journalists put things in the larger context, news media does not. People need to recognize the difference and start putting things into the larger context themselves. Wonderful Johan is talking about social media in terms of personal attention without talking about the tracking and psychological / behavioral control that are a part of those tech strategies. This is important because we don't have control over any one of these smaller important issues like "attention manipulation" when we don't have true democracies. Now that wealth is largely consolidated, Western democracies are corporatocracies/ oligarchirs/ forms of corporate fascism. While Johan is talking about his valid concerns, there are "public-private partnerships" (another word for corporate fascism) here in the US where tech billionaires are suddenly interested in early education, and placing young children in front of screens. You see, when we don't have a true democracy, those who have usurped power are glad to have us engaged in these smaller issues that don't get to the larger problem. This allows those who now have tremendous wealth and power to consolidate their power with the next generation. Another dangerous mistake he makes is the few times he says "this is not a conspiracy". Because consolidated power is the greatest danger to society, we should always be asking and considering weather powerful people and organizations are conspiring to advance their interests. People never have the power to truly solve social problems like the one Johan is raising when we don't have any real power in our society. We should always be asking the following question with any social problem; "does consolidated power have an interest in _____?". "Does consolidated power have an interest in dumbing down the population via lead and toxins?". Of course it does, because dumb people are easier to rule over. By asking the question, we become aware of the larger problem of toxins in our environment, and not just in gas. "Does consolidated power have an interest in tracking your thoughts and behaviors through your use of the internet?" Of course it does, because then the public can be controlled by those with power. And while you're talking about the important issue of attention and social media, a surveillance society with cameras on every corner is being built around you. A new web 3 is being created with blockchain tracking. Digital ID and digital currency is being rolled out which will more easily track and control every penny you have and spend. If the "internet of bodies and brains" becomes a reality, you won't even have a choice to turn off your screen. You will be monitored directly in your body and mind. (Allison McDowell on KZbin does great research into this). "Does consolidated power have an interest in Western democracies failing?" The wealthiest corporations and investment banks - that own every product, not just tech products - are transnational. The weaker individual nations are, the more easily transnational private and corporate power/profit are secured. We already have the institutions of a world fascist government; economic -WEF and the world bank. Healthcare-WHO. Military-the United Nations. Law and Justice - the World Court. None of the people involved in these worldwide institutions are elected. The world's people, and individual societies, are complex systems. Their outcomes are not accidents. Power and wealth has been consolidated and we are now at risk of a world corporate fascist government being put in place, or is already in place. The "young global leaders" from the WEF, world economic forum are operating in every country. Those interested in consolidating with their wealth and power love that people's lives and attention are caught up in these smaller issues without putting them in their larger context. And the icing on the cake is while people are making the case for their smaller issue, they are sure to say "this is not a conspiracy."

[@williambarry8015]

I know my attention span has been way shortened. It's got to be Top Notch content from super smart creators to keep me watching for more than 3 minutes. I haven't watched more than 3 minutes of a Tim pool video in over 2 years.

[@cmmndrblu]

that's interesting because other people seem to be drawn to long form podcasts so I wonder why the split

[@larscooleman8221]

​​@@cmmndrblu im more in for longer form to. Its more clear and more context is brought in the podcast that way. But i only follow some guys, i think the most known like Peter, triggernometry, JP less now but ive seen them all for a while.

[@ernestberry5226]

Dan. It’s these podcasts that get my attention when I should be writing my essay 😂

[@dennisryan5586]

Or...people can just NOT synch their phone to any of their online accounts? That's what I do, can still use the internet and anything else just fine if you need to, but it eliminates any link to social media or anything else. Use your home computer or tablet for that stuff, does anyone really need to be linked to their internet accounts 24/7 or during work or school?? Kind of turns your smart phone into a dumb phone, but it's completely reversible if needed. And people can just use their phones as...well...phones. Crazy concept, I know.

[@grannyannie2948]

I have a much cheaper way of doing that. I refuse to pay for mobile data so I can only access the internet at home via WiFi. As for social media I've never used it.

[@dennisryan5586]

@@grannyannie2948 I use the lowest data plan, only because the map and weather access can be really helpful at times. And I've been social media free for ten years now. :]

[@desertrose0601]

Interesting. I’m the same age as Johann and I can’t remember the smell of leaded gas. I remember it being a thing but not anything more specific. I didn’t realize attention problems were why we banned it. 🤔

[@shughy1]

Calling out Twitter is wrong as they are all as bad as each other... I think Tiktok and Facebook are worse really, I'm hoping a new generation comes along and makes it fashionable to have no social media accounts. Even LinkedIn makes me sick as it's narcissism on steroids

[@cestmoi4532]

Thank you for your video!

[@psychnstatstutor]

It's interesting listening to other's stories about social media use when one (moi) only turns on the phone for calls and messages. It reminds me of when I first started not wearing make-up (other's attention?) ...could have used an app for that 30 years ago >_

[@TomPerkinsCountry]

Another great show! I’m no MAGA acolyte, but, I do love that often I hear those that would never vote for Trump say on a range of policy issues, “…well to give Trump credit….” and then name something his administration did, that if “their” candidate had done they would have no problem giving credit for: “Wanted to ban TickTock”, Abraham Accords, Prison Reform, didn’t start any new wars etc.

[@drpeterboghossian]

Thank you! I’m glad you liked it!

[@joeanon1415]

Hate is a human emotion for a reason too.

[@bertieboo]

Cheers gents, nicely interesting x

[@drpeterboghossian]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@davidbettney785]

Really enjoyed Johann's enthusiasm and his explanations...Right up until he said the BBC has flaws but is a great model. The BBC is same as silicone valley (it gives you a massively left leaning and false view of our country and the world, and constantly tells half truths to manipulate you!) Instead of trying to re-define how to use social media....Just don't use it. You can use your phone to message people and for emergencies. Netflix is a rotten model, as you get the choice...But the choice is 99% to watch woke programs or VERY woke programs. So the producers of the shows manipulate your thoughts the same as the engineers on social media platforms. Go walking in nature and shut off your phone, and meet likeminded people....Then the Google engineers will have to find real jobs :)

[@mwas1990]

The moment he said BBC is trustworthy he lost the credibility to me

[@Globaldave1970]

I watched this all the right through, so obviously don't have an attention problem......mind you, was on twitter and facebook at the same time! :-)

[@central_scrutinizr]

It really sucks that we have created systems that incentivize/reward the worst types of human behavior, rather than the best.

[@Dantegrey1]

I leave social media sometimes. I simply delete and erase them for a few months. My social life outside my family is generally on Facebook [I know it's pathetic), so I have to return once in a while. Furthermore, I never watch the short videos. Ever. It doesn't work great, but it's pretty OK.

[@seekerout]

Those shorts are a trap. I have lost hours of my life swiping through them. Now I do what you do - I don't watch ever, because once I start, it's hard to stop.

[@grannyannie2948]

I'm the opposite, if a video is shorter than forty minutes I'm not interested.

[@kellyhassen8071]

lowerd attention span is true., It seems alot channels edit the same 5 minute videos together and make a 30 minute video. Most people won't notice..

[@anniebananie416]

That Sutherland movie shared the shit out of me as a child, girl in a red coat, standing in a corner. Omg

[@j.d.4645]

Peter interviewing someone: interesting. Peter having a conversation with someone: also interesting. Peter sitting and listening to an endless monologue by someone who, as it happens, has no difficulty focusing as long as it's on the sound of his own voice: a waste of time. I read and appreciated Stolen Focus. But this man should be read, not heard.

[@DRV110]

The person he's referring to is Owen Jones. He wrote chavs in 2011.

[@marjaleena9465]

There's a song called Information Overload by Holy Smokes and it's about social media addiction

[@LewsTherin100]

I see this with my young children, and it is frightening. We are being engineered for the highest bidder

[@knoticethis]

Watching both my young nephews sitting side by side, glued to iPads, hypnotized by the infinite scroll of KZbin shorts terrifies me. It’s like watching little kids taking drugs but no one realizes that’s what’s happening.

[@The_Real_Grand_Nagus]

So if good feels made more sales because it made people more likely to want to buy things, then advertisers (if they're paying attention) could prefer to pay for positivity. That would only correct for the negativity though, not the attention stealing.

[@jonathanedwardgibson]

Ha! Great talk. Over the Y2K my group of artists and designers and techies in Benicia California routinely ‘disarmed’ phones into basket before dinner playing the all-in-now game. It’s a surveillance-control protocol.

[@wightrat1207]

1:30:12 I recently downloaded and played a tower defense game. I played for four hours that night, instead of sleeping. I woke up the next day and played for about half an hour. At this point I realized this was going to be a massive time sink and I'd be playing this game instead of doing things I actually needed to do. I uninstalled it right at that moment. Those games pull me in too much for me to have them on my phone.

[@BostonsRaddest]

❤

[@mikew2479]

Twitter does this especially, I dont argue almost ever on any of the other social media platforms. There is maybe something in the algorythms of Twitter that purposefully insentifies combativeness I get into a arguement a day on there spouting off random BS, and i havent had more then maximum one a year on all the other social media platforms combined. Hope I dont have one here or im scrwd!

[@randygault4564]

Nothing extreme about Wilders.

[@markworden9169]

The professor can leave the university, but the university can't leave the professor.

[@davo7777]

The ozone layer ROFL, the BBC as a good example ROFL.

[@david_walker_esq]

How does "public ownership" of the internet (like public ownership of the BBC) compare to Canada's Bill C-11 (The Online Streaming Act)?

[@JustinK617]

Public ownership is government ownership.

[@michaelcicero2967]

Would love to see this guy in a room with Jonathan Haidt. Any chance you can make that happen, Peter?

[@masterspin7796]

I think social media has added a lot of "anxiety" to people's lives especially if you're a drunk....

[@randygault4564]

If you didn't think you had the right moral positions, why would you hold them?

[@shannonsayshi]

We all can benefit from this interview (and his book) but... those of us with the attention span and inclination to listen to the topic aren't the ones who need the information the most ;) lol

[@gordonwhite205]

Thank You for this video. Needed to Hear this today.😃😃

[@stopthatluca]

I've been thinking about this a lot recently, that the whole world is being conditioned, through the use of smart phones, to think and behave like the geeky creators of those phones presumably in Silicon Valley.

Great Convo!!! Johannn is brilliant

[@drpeterboghossian]

We agree!

[@WonderfulWorldofAwesomeness]

Not everyone processes their mothers deaths in the same way. Some people have terrible mothers. I cried, but only out of sense of relief. And my life has gotten exponentially better since she died. I know you’re not supposed to say that or even think it, but I only miss the idea of her, not her.

[@simontrober7487]

Play games after a traumatic experience? That's a very interesting position ... the trauma doesn't get so embedded in one's memory that it becomes their whole personality. It may just work.

[@nefaristo]

Yeah attention span is one of Holds on a sec

[@alexander10102]

Actually his analogy about the banning of lead in gasoline is false. It was phased out, sadly not because of altruism, but because leaded gasoline damages catalytic converters. It was market driven not social conscience driven

[@Strawberria]

Excellent interview. Thank you.

[@havocgr1976]

Here is a little hope, the EU basically forced this btw.Meta will offer people in the EU, EEA and Switzerland the choice to pay a monthly subscription to use Facebook and Instagram without any ads. They can alternatively continue to use these services for free while seeing ads that are relevant to them.