ZONE 2 RUNNING HR Seem Wrong? Try The KARVONEN METHOD

If you're a triathlete or runner who has had a hard time with Zone 2 running because you thing your training zones might be wrong, use the Karvonen Method Calculation.
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[@EverythingIsPhotogenic]

Hi Taren, saw your Instagram... don't dwell on the negativity. 100k subs seems to be that magic number where the hate comments get loud. Everyone wants to be that Monday morning quarterback and to throw stones at someone who after working their ass off for years providing free and useful content finds some success and asks for the sale - either through sponsorship or their own products. People are feeling more out of control right now than ever and often look to discharge that anxiety onto people who "deserve" it because they aren't struggling in the same way. Keep doing what you're doing. You'll lose some assholes, but you'll gain more true fans in the long run.

[@startingtoday4663]

Thanks Taren this info was a really helpful "reality check" for me. I'm 72 so my MAF HR is 108 which is like a moderately fast walking pace !! . I did the MAx test and it was 156. My Oura Ring overnight RHR is 48. The Karnoven method calculated the zone 2 pace at 113-124 which means I can/should jog in zone 2 training. Makes a lot more sense, thanks

[@johanndaart7326]

What counts is your real performance, not results from a calculator. With experience (making hypothesis before a run and testing it out), you will feel the boundary of your Zone 2 and you will also feel your lactate threshold. So even if a calculator says Zone 2 is max 125 and you start to feel like you are biting a bit into Zone 3 at 125, then your real Zone 2 max is a bit lower at 122-123. Also its always varies a bit, because of your sleep, food timing, caffeine etc...

[@zacsborntorunrunningadvent3441]

Yes if you get your true max then subtract pulse...then times x 0.65-0.7 is the sweetspot for Base Training. Try 1 run a wk @ x 0.75 calculation (called Lydiard 1/2 Effort). Also hit 1 run a wk about x 0.78 called the 3/4 Sub Threshold run. Cheers this was Arthur Lydiard Base phase so its not Anaerobic at all. Youll enjoy it alot more than 108 maf calc. Its too generic. Cheers

[@kevinhines6066]

This calculation is something I’ve struggled with. I have a tested Max HR right around 200bpm (despite being 43 years old), and a resting HR around 56bpm. I’ve found two schools of thought on determining zone 2 rates: 1) base zone 2 off of 60-70% of your max heart rate. In that case I get a zone of 120-140 bpm. 2) base zone 2 off of 60-70% calculated from your HR Reserve (which appears to be the Karvonen Method discussed here - though this is the first time I’ve heard a name associated with it). Using my HR numbers I’m now looking at a Zone 2 rate of 142-157 bpm. So, these two methods produce substantially different results for calculating my individual zone 2 HR, despite the fact that I have repeatedly demonstrated a known Max and resting HR number for me. So, as someone who is trying to employ a good Zone 2 base training, I’m still at a loss of which method to use. I typically aim for a HR of 135-140 for my zone 2 work, but I wonder if I’m going too light based on the other method of calculating the zones? For me, at least, a 137 HR usually puts me around a 10:30 min mile pace on level terrain, and a pace at which I can carry on a conversation (one of those old school indicators of zone 2 work). But, if there’s more juice to squeeze from this zone in terms of HR, it sure would be nice to figure that out!

[@dazvxn]

You're awesome dude, thanks for always helping us out! Literally answer our questions without us having to ask them

[@prrace8599]

Thanks Taren! Love that you brought it over from the podcast and showed it in the calculator. I was in the exercise phys lab years ago and a prof gave me really poor advice about zones at that time due to my abnormally high max and low resting HR. Obviously the research and knowledge has come a long way since then but it’s still pretty obscure. Grateful to have someone share some insight for those of us with a wider range.

[@TheRixstar]

So glad you uploaded this today, I was literally googling all last night making sure I actually am in zone 2. My cycling watts is going up steadily, but my running isn't improving at all... yet!

[@jonathanwentworth3761]

I love the idea behind this method. Based on many metrics, I have a 132 Z2 top, which is extremely easy/slow. I think this accounts for a lot more than others. Excited to see the results.

[@Argonaut320]

Fantastic !!! Now i can finally see that my previous Zone2 was too low, (i am doing Ultra btw) far better now !!! I have already updated my zones in my Polar watches and Flow ...Thanks !!

[@alancraig3756]

This is really helpful. I'm 48, so MAF would be 132. But my max HR is 198 and resting is around 40, which gives me 151 for the top of zone 2. This is the difference between painfully slow and an effort that is enjoyable, yet still very easy. For reference, my average heart rate was 165 for my last marathon. So anything below about 155 feels like I could sustain it all day. Thanks for the video!

[@joelouden6592]

Wow. 165 bpm for an entire marathon? I've always wondered how high heart rates were during marathons. I hit 165 bpm in about 800 to 1000 meters when running at only 6 mph. When I run 2 miles at 6 mph I'm at 182 bpm. I find it harder to run at 5 mph than at 6 mph so I have to walk to get my heart rate down instead of trying to run slower.

[@alfromtx245]

@@joelouden6592 165 was just the average. There's so much heart rate variance between different individuals. I have a good friend who I run with. He's 7 years younger and, for any given effort, his heart hate is about 10 bpm lower. Have you tried a lactate threshold heart rate test? Yours may just be higher than average. The easier (non-lab) version is to do a 30 minute best effort run. Then take your average heart rate for the last 20 minutes. Your super easy run zone would be anything 81% of your lactate threshold heart rate or lower.

[@joelouden6592]

@@alfromtx245 I have no plans to run a marathon, so I'm not worried about it too much. I haven't had a lactate threshold test but I do have my own data from max effort 5Ks and 4-milers where I would be as high as 185 bpm at the finish. Using 180 x 81% would put me at 145 bpm which is right where I naturally average on long bike rides, 40-minute circuit strength training sessions, steep hikes, etc. I hate running slower than 6 mph, so I simply don't. I'd rather walk. I'm 6' 2" with fairly long legs so anything slower than 6 mph feels like I'm jumping up and down and dissipating forward momentum and I can feel the soles of my shoes scuffing the ground. I have always noticed (for 46 years) that after a 3+ mile run at anything over 170 bpm I feel tired and sluggish the next day. This was true in my teens, 20s, 30s, and 40s and no matter my fitness level, so I think I've always ran at too high a heart rate and effort for my own good.

[@alancraig3756]

@Jason Rosman I think my previous watch (Forerunner 235) was reading too low. Some days, I was waking up with a resting heart rate of 35 or lower. Once I replaced it with the Forerunner 245, it's been a little higher. Average resting HR for the past year has been 45.

[@mikafoxx2717]

@@alancraig3756 what's the difference between sleeping and standing resting heart rate for you? Mine seems to vary a fair bit.

[@mikesiemens4145]

I switched to the Karnoven method about 4 weeks ago and couldn't be happier. Using the Maff method I had a top of zone 2 at 139bpm (180-41) and felt like I was just toddling around. I did a max HR test with my cardiologist and got a MaxHR of 200 (I've seen 207 while on the bike) and recalculated my zones. Now I go for zone 2 rides in the 150's instead of sub zone 1in the 130's. Everyone needs to go out and do a MaxHR test ASAP.

[@AlwaysEarned]

I was thinking about all this this morning. I had a 45 min bike with a 15 minute run at zone 2 from you guys felt like i was going slower did the calculations i should be around 150 thanks for the video!

[@SpeedBoosted136]

Thanks! I knew and felt that pulse of 130 is too low for me as Zone2 since no effort at all, and around 150 is the end of my Zone2. The formula proved it and thanks a lot - now the math suite the feelings :) :) :)

[@davidmariot6578]

Thanks for introducing this method Taren! What was your time on the 400s?

[@twotgfltandahalf]

THANK YOU! I've really been struggling to keep into Z2, even when letting garmin auto-adjust max HR. I haven't even done a proper max HR test in a decade (was as 204), but with my 48 resting HR and a max 196, from a really long steep MTB climb with a HR-strap, using the Karvonen formula my Z2 suddenly looks like what feels naturally easy to me. I'm gonna try this for a while and see how it goes.

[@richardmiddleton7770]

I use the MAF method. As max heart rate can vary depending on how tired or motivated you are I simply stick to a lower number if the run feels hard (fatigued) and I might go slightly higher if the run feels easy (fresh). You can also simply do the nose breathing method if you're not congested.

[@MrEtc31265]

Taren, I new to your channel. 2 days ago I did 60 minutes on treadmill zone 2. I cannot believe how sore my legs are.

[@johan-kathysmolders-dupon2281]

It’s ‘Karvonen’ Allright. This method already exists from the early ‘80’s. It served me forr years with great satisfaction and just like an ‘old’ bloodpressure measurement manchet is still accurate to measure blood pressure, so is the Karvonen method still the best, ‘self service’ method to come close to a lab-test.

[@aakashpal1635]

Your explanation is best 👍👍🙂

[@hinni1997]

Perfect video, just try to not lay down instantly after a true max effort Taren! It hurts but laying down can lead to heart or brain problems

[@sylvainbauge]

My MAF HR with this Karvonen formula is 5 beats higher than the 180 minus age formula from Phil Maffetone. I just did a all out treadmill test for critical power with Stryd so it was easy to use your method. Well the Karvonen method :) I train with power now, not HR but I still wear a HR belt on all my runs to double-check after

[@jaysingh05]

Thank you! Great vid

[@cebukid70]

I have used zones from the "Kavonen Method" for a few years now....since 2016-ish. Now.... it gives me a generous zone 2 but I always stay on the "low end" of my zone. My max HR is 180-ish...

[@mikuslembergs]

Can you explain your thought process on why you picked the lowest monthly RHR and not like the most commonly seen monthly RHR?

[@aviannakayan7592]

For me determining heart rate zones using blood lactate threshold is the most accurate.

[@yoavking1999]

Which device are you using?

[@lukaspacin6344]

Can I use threshold heart rate to calculate zones? I’m asking because my max hr is about 200-205, but my threshold is 194-195. I maintained 95% of my max heart rate for a half marathon, and I only ran it in 1:32

[@Danolsen93]

I am 30, and my Max heartrate is 203-205. I used to base my zones on Max heartrate only, and what my zone 2 is now with this method was my zone 3 before!! My fitness declined a lot over time because i was in the wrong zones. Now im quickly building fitness again.

[@Thestripper1]

This yields a totally different result than the spredsheat I downloaded from your site. Edit: I now realize that in the spreadsheat from triathlontaren the high value of zone 2 stays at 138 no matter what variables you type in. It never changes. There must be something wrong.

[@joboytancinco9972]

Hi taren - do you update your heart rate zones when you detect a new max heart rate for this method during one of your threshold runs?

[@hannaniakurkos8468]

Hi taren great vid 🤘I little question? .. if I hate sleeping with my garmin 945 .. and I checked at garmin conncet and my average hr at the last y is 73bpm (during the day) not sleeping .. so how do I get my correct rest hr ? I checked once in the morning before a week it was between 56-61bpm 🤷🏽‍♂️ and my max hr is 177 (220 - 43 my age) so I should put dose metrics at the karnoven calculator ???

[@krissymanesmosby9833]

So I did this Run test today to get my Max HR of 205 - I used the Karvonen calculator from the Video and I went and plugged this HR into the Run Max HR cell in the HR Calculator spreadsheet that you have created - my zones are pretty different between the spread sheet (Z2: 117-146) and the Karvonen Method (Z2: 148-162) Which do you recommend for Zone 2 Runs?

[@michwoz]

Hear rate reserve method (max - resting hr) is surely the most accurate method to calculate hear rate zones.

[@matthewdray83]

I am 50, my Max HR is about 195 and resting 42. been running for most of my adult life and ever since getting a HR strap noticed my mac HR is higher than most of my peers. Always wondered if that is a good or bad thing and never got an answer

[@josephschembri4811]

210 max / 51 rhr... That's me to a T! This means my zone 2 runs can be runs again!!!

[@trepidati0n533]

Yep....while the concept of the maff method is solid....the data behind it was never released. When people don't release data...yeah, you should be worried.

[@johanndaart7326]

@@trepidati0n533 MAF is just a marketing simplification. He said that he quickly wanted to get a ballpark number of aero zone for his new trainees, without wasting time on properly testing them. In a sense he's right, even if that number is closer to Zone 2's lower boundary than its max, beginners should start with a light runs for 2-3 months anyway. But after that, bumbling around in low Zone 2, without adding faster runs is just a waste of time. With an exception of people that do other high intensity trainings. Muay fighters are running mostly Zone 2, but they do shit ton of Zone 4 and 5 while training their sport.

[@dekik.979]

@@johanndaart7326 Agree. I always thought Z2 is for certain type of muscul fibers and certain type of fuel (fat). But it desnt mean its bad to use others. Its just different people likes different fuel

[@johanndaart7326]

@@dekik.979 I think context is important. If some advice is marketed towards average amateur, then "low intensity" advice is not the best one, because most amateurs don't understand that low intensity = high volume and they don't do high volume by running 2-3 times per week. There's this "Run Less Run Faster" book with a 3 day per week plan and it's tough with intensity. That's why it works without big volume.

[@davidcouch007]

You're the first person I've seen to acknowledge that people do have different heart rates. I'm 43 but my HR max is 197 and resting HR is 70. These zones are now perfect for me

[@apickerl]

I was really hoping for more grunting, and cries of agony.

[@jdoexrayvision]

Before anyone copies and barfs, I have an alternate solution. Get access to 18 flights of stairs, run down them and then run up them, once. That's your max heartrate. I'm 37 and my max is 200. That's how I found out for sure, first try. Really settled my mind, made me less mad at zone 2 training that I had been doing 15 or so bpm to low.

[@megiMove]

Im like 236 max heartrate and lowest 46.. im 35 years old and have always had the same. My polar h10 chest belt and watch says my sone 2 is around 135 to 160..

[@donharrold1375]

Does it matter if you occasionally drift 5-10 beats above your Zone 2 limit when training? It’s very difficult too stay locked in Zone 2 if you’re training outside?

[@awfully.average]

yeah i tried karvonen , seems very right to me , 133-146 at zone 2 for me , im 43 years old

[@damienromain8164]

Interesting video but now I am really puzzled ... what shall be my threshold HR for zone 2. According to your previous version of calculator my ceiling was at 135 now it tells me 150.

[@ThomasTGH]

I have the same question and very similar #s I truly hope this method is correct. I am 50 years old 55 Resting 188 Max and this method tells me top of Z2 would be about 149 Using Taren's former calculator it was 135... I hope Teren can give us clarity. He really is incredibly helpful and responsive so I think he will

[@zacsborntorunrunningadvent3441]

Karvonen calculator is where its at :) yewwwww. Another good 1 is to use the 8020threshold calculator as if youve tested your individual 1hr racepace hr value zone1 & 2 is a % of lthr. Cheers. For me Karvonen and 8020 are very close. 199 max 181lthr zone2 is 147-163. Karvonen 65-70% is 143- 153 (44 pulse most morns). Although 0.75 karvonen is more inline with zone2 max for 80/20 which puts me at 160. Only 3bpm difference. Cheers

[@rocky_singh_399]

Hi Taren, After running for 6 months, 4 -5 days in weeks, 3 miles at pace of 10 min per mile and 2 miles at pace of 12 min per mile, still my heart zone is going above 155 every time after 5 mins of run. Lost 20lbs in the process from 195 to 165, but heart rate zone is still the same, losing my interest, can you please suggest. Thanks,

[@ifonly1532]

I'm a bit confused. You're showing us the Karvonen method and yet you keep mentioning another method you call the Karnoven method. Why and What's the difference between those 2 methods ?

[@Jonnypeters1]

MHR 193/RHR 50. garmin had my zone 2 between 116 - 134, Karvonen has my zone 2 between 136 - 150! 134 felt too slow... Can I apply karvonen zone 2 to my swimming and biking?

[@ggzii]

Cheap watch to pair with my polar strap?

[@DCassidy42]

You got all the gear, all the tech all the analysis and I get the distinct feeling you are overestimating your nutritional needs and underestimating your capacity to train.

[@adventurouslife4079]

That's 95% of all people who train.

[@ArtursNehajenko]

How much Zone 2 per week is good to increase endurance ?

[@tikimandalawoldberg8880]

Hi Taren. Thank you for all your videos and insights. I am a beginner runner at 46. Hoping to do run the original marathon next year, Which happens to start only 15 km away from where I live. (if you live that close to Marathon, you'll need to run it, right?) So I've a bit puzzled about these HRZ's. Initially I went with the 211-(0.64 x age), which is the default setting in the Zones for Training App. It gave me MHR of 181 bpm. If I'd go with the 220 - age I get MHR 174 bpm. My heart seems to like to spike quickly and the given zones from these calculations almost exclude light running below zone 3. Now I found I did a max effort run a few weeks ago, or so it seems. Cause my Heart App tells me it detected a MHR of 198!!!!! So my question is... Am I suppose to be dead? My second question is, since I'm still alive and able to ask, When I use this together with my lowest HR, I get zones that are much more doable for me. My HRZ 3 runs simply become HRZ 2 runs. So the question is, should I use 198 bpm in this calculation? Also, at what bpm should you call a doctor? Or get yourself checked?

[@avancoillie]

How do these customised zones translate between running and cycling, will you running zone 2 therefore be the same as cycling zone 2?

[@pauldeaks1212]

No running and cycling are different zones as cycling is less stressful on the body compared to running

[@0SKBooth0]

General idea is to take away 10-20 beats to your cycling zones

[@mikesiemens4145]

Do a MaxHR test on your bike and base your bike zones on that number.

[@tommylobotommy]

as mentionen previously, when cycling you don't have to carry your weight, therefore max HR will be lower by probably 10bpm (e.g. my running max is 183 and cycling 172)

[@knockdolian12]

I did a max heart rate test on a treadmill holding the rail and hit 180 myself. I’m 60. Can I take that as a true reading. Trying to max out at my age only leads to injury !!!

[@Viktorj90]

My zone 2 ranges from 122-136 bpm. The problem is 122 bpm is around 4.10-4.25min/km pace, which is 35-45sec slower than my half marathon pace. I feel like 100-110bpm is my zone 2 based on RPE. Is there any other calculator out there that you can recommend?

[@sebastienhoude8614]

I wrote to you a month ago about Karvonen method and you didn't even answer about it ??? Now you published about it !!

[@EverythingIsPhotogenic]

You cracked it, Taren stole your idea and ignored you to cover it up 🤦🏼‍♀️ how about be satisfied that he is covering a topic you find valuable.

[@ElonMuckX]

Dam Plagerists!!!!

[@sebastienhoude8614]

@@EverythingIsPhotogenic yes i am howerver I would just appreciate a short answer on my email. That's it! Nothing more.

[@trepidati0n533]

@@sebastienhoude8614 did you ever consider this was in the works even before your message? People like to find causation where there is only correlation. Hint, the video was recorded Nov 4th and a lot of work was done well before that.

[@sebastienhoude8614]

@@trepidati0n533 I wish so! why He did not just answer saying that it just working on this topic for a next post ?

[@benyam525]

might be a stupid question but after running a 5k TT, my avg HR was 189. When i scrub through the HR data it seemed i was between 192-196 after mile 1. Would my max then be the highest number ~ 196? Or am i supposed to use the 189?

[@tiberiustrifu2331]

Your max is the maximum value, not the average.

[@HIIHTONIILO1]

I think Karvonen is finnish name. Anyway Karvonen Zone 2 top for me is 137bpm and 124bpm. I ran 10K today easy joghin with 127bpm. So Ithink this suits me quit well for cycling as well zone'1 max is 124.' I usually try to keep jogging 130bpm so zone2 basic traing slow speed. Anyway these are interesting...

[@Kontrabass66]

With 30 years my max was 220, I trained with 200. Now my max is about 200 I am 57 now), running with 160 to 180...Now I start slowing down to 145 per minute...

[@bobw5024]

IMO any formula that does not use real data is not going give accurate results, especially 220-age for max, plenty of people over 40 can easily go above 180.from the comments about the MAF method, like me many runners can not maintain even a dead slow run under their MAF number. My old zone 2runs will now be zone 3. I know that resting HR should go down as fitness improves. Does anyone know if changes in max HR reflect changes in fitness.

[@gggentii]

www.ntnu.edu/cerg/hrmax Past 40 the 220-age is no longer accurate.

[@TGTD100]

Shouldn‘t it be Karvonen?

[@Blacktiger147]

It should

[@royalgregory4]

@@Blacktiger147 @TGTD100 Give him some slack. He probably only learned about it last week and is now the expert.

[@tomipetteri4881]

Honestly why people are not using training zones based to threshold values?

[@cycletrade2276]

I found this method too hard as a max 180 resting 50 HR it gave me 127-141 zone 2 target and that was 60-70%. Some say 70-80% karvonen which seems crazy. I actually just prefer regular heart rate zones based off max and focus on zone 1-2 for like 70% majority and some zone 4-5 maybe 10% and group ride and do events mainly in zone 3 anyway with surges

[@paperjourni8964]

you got the name wrong twice really bold but didn‘t notice?

[@cliffcox7643]

You said type Karnoven, but in your title you say Karvonen.. Have you been taking too much carbs?

[@afonsoguilhon8012]

Taren was apologizing to his team about his bad shape he didn’t even posted his 400 sprints times , I was wondering how slow were the times...

[@TheTriOwl]

I wondered if you need to maintain the Zone 2 while you’re on the run, or is it okay to get a average HR overall over you’re run in the end. I find it hard to maintain HR maf towards the end of the run therefore I sometimes overshoot my maf HR but maintain a maf average.

[@seanchin]

why not just stick to power zones bro?

[@mrdavester]

I'm pretty sure your resting heart rate is NOT while sleeping. Check right after you wake up, thats what I'm finding with research.

[@tomipetteri4881]

My sleep HR is around 54-57 and morning HR 69-76. Not sure if this is a problem, but different number nevertheless.

[@evanhadkins5532]

The most restful heart rate is while sleeping. On waking is used because people can't take their own heart rate while asleep (so it's an approximation). Devices give the better indication of when the heart is resting - when we're asleep.

[@odyseusjarhead602]

Karvonen

[@gunaseelanm3479]

Someone please sponsor me a HRM

[@Zachtheattack13]

Happy Thanksgiving

[@josephschembri4811]

He's Canadian. Thanksgiving was over a month ago.

[@Jacko91222]

Thats some horrendous 'nutrition 🤮

[@andrewmorrissey2349]

He really needs to go back to basics and eat some whole foods then add supplements only when required.

[@muhidinkadric965]

I agree, i gag everytime he shows this stuff.

[@WtfYoutube_YouSuck]

@@andrewmorrissey2349 lol. When pushing a youtube fitness business, the idea is to show off as many GNC type supplement products as humanly possible...only normally, it's fit muscular dudes showing them off. This is more like Homer Simpson eating only PowerSauce Bars.

[@arnoldszarins3200]

I agree, seeing that. I want to vomit

[@DublinDapper]

@@WtfKZbin_YouSuck 😂😂

[@gunaseelanm3479]

Someone please sponsor me a hrm 😞

[@kingelvis5502]

ARBITRARY?!?!?! PHDs, 40 years of research, multitudes of verified gains using 180 - age for a 3 to 6 month base, but YEAH you know better:) Lmfao

[@SirMika9]

Seriously, how can you even talk after max effort lol.

[@tricepsbrachii]

Karnoven 🤣

[@exerciserelax8719]

I didn't like it when you were talking with your mouth full! Gross!