10 Bit vs 8 Bit - Sony FS5 vs Sony a7Sii a7Rii - Is 10 Bit Always Better?

[@DaveDugdaleColorado]

Sony a7Sii pricing: amzn.to/2xsW3Jh www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1186034-REG/sony_ilce7sm2_b_alpha_a7sii_mirrorless_digital.html/BI/6499/KBID/7145 Sony FS5 pricing: www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1185424-REG/sony_pxw_fs5_xdcam_super_35.html/BI/6499/KBID/7145

[@roundhouse283]

Dave Dugdale Hi Dave, 8 bit is better then 10 bit with noise because of aliasing on the A2D converter. jaunty-electronics.com/blog/2013/03/12-bit-vs-8-bit-whats-the-difference/ Great video.

[@TonyAndChelsea]

Thanks for doing this, Dave! When we did our GH4 8-bit (internal) vs 10-bit (external) none of us could see any differences, even heavily graded, even in situations manufactured to highlight the difference. But your examples very clearly show the value of those high-end cameras we always dream of... Oh and screw those 4 people who gave you a thumbs down already. WTH is their problem?

[@DaveDugdaleColorado]

+Tony & Chelsea Northrup thanks Tony, that means a lot coming from you. You have a ton of technical knowledge on your channel which is awesome!

[@janakthapa1082]

Hahaha 🤙🏿🤙🏿

[@curtisjudd]

Great work Dave! Very brave of you to take on a question like this and nicely done! The white balance test was interesting and it did look like the corrected clips had a little bit of extra magenta in your jacket relative to the clips with the correct white balance, but that was the case with both the FS5 and the A7RII. In my tests, I've found similar things: with 10-bit 4:2:2 color out of my GH4 to the Shogun, banding in the skies is the only thing with which I've found a difference so far. Not that there aren't other things, I just haven't come across them yet. Thanks again!

[@JimRobinson-colors]

Dave - where you see the difference in LOG between 10-bit and 8 bit is in the -3 to -4 where the log curve comes in from a flat curve to a linear curve. That's why people over expose 1 or 2 stops to move that shadow information to the linear part of the curve - The bits that are getting written on that flat curve are very small in 8-bit. - Under exposing is something different. When you film at a correct exposure the light needed to capture the detail in the shadows is captured - when you under expose there is not enough light hitting the sensor for the detail and then lifting in post is creating artificial light. it is the equivalent of amplifying a low audio signal - yes, you can turn it up and hear the audio, but you bring up the noise floor with it. So a test of the difference from a colorist is going to be in the -3 - 4 stops . 8-bit will fall apart and 10 or 12 bit will retain that detail.

[@noone331]

I've watched your videos since I was a teenager. I'm 23, currently in my second year of University. You have no idea how helpful the content you produce is. You've made the learning process understandable and informative for nearly every camera I've used.

[@DaveDugdaleColorado]

Wow, thanks for saying that! Much appreciated.

[@CLRH2O]

Someone else might have already said this - and if so I apologize: The whole thing with the 'Hey, using this little Sony at 4k underexposed for some reason doesn't give me noise problems' has to do with 'Super-sampling' (a big deal in the video game world). When you downscale a 4k image which contains the inherent sensor noise (and the grains of that noise at a pixel size relative to the sensor pixel count) to the lower 1080 HD resolution you will (in effect) auto de-noise the resulting video by shrinking the pixel size of the noise grains. This happens to such an extent (4x smaller and then smoothed across the remaining pixels) that they are in many cases not visible in the down scaled pixel data. Along with that happening, a few other happy advantages occur in terms of image sharpness and anti aliasing as well. Basically, Super-sampling is a great thing to do in many many instances from a visual fidelity standpoint.

[@st.michaelthearchangel7774]

I sit here at 2:49PM, on July 12th, 2020 eating an egg, potato, caramelized onions, and turkey-bacon breakfast and reading your comment as I chew, just nodding my head saying, “mmhmm, Yep, sounds legit,” but really not knowing what you are talking about. Lolz.

[@kdart7178]

Just a quick perspective from a colourist if anyone is interested. (i'm not the best colourist in the world but I've seen a lot of footage) In my experience the Red Cameras are really tempramental when you don't get the exposure right. They love to be overexpose much more than underexposed as you often see some really terrible noise in the shadows HORRIBLE colours and all that. The Arri seems to be the best all round in my opinion, it does work well when you overexpose it would seem and I've found that to be the case with virtually all the cameras that shoot RAW. The Sony cameras hold up well for 8bit though you do get limitations shooting internally when you go to grade. The best thing to do is to get a better codec and it makes a big difference (you will see a much bigger difference getting ProRes 422 than 8 or 10bit). This is the same with the GH4 in Vlog-L and here IMHO the 10bit makes much more of a difference than with the Sonys. Slog2 is sort of the sweet spot for the A series Sonys but I don't think it's impossible to shoot Slog 3 on those either. Slog3 needs something like 12bit to really show you the advantages of shooting so flat and being able to capture all that DR, It's a really powerful LOG format, one of the best I've seen really. Naturally a camera that performs better in Low light would show better results shooting on compressed codecs in LOG, as Dave CLEARLY demonstrated here, this is very much the same thing I have seen myself. As for for what I think happens with the 4k down res, it doesn't make the file 10bit but all the problems like the noise, artefacts that come with video compression get compressed and are smaller thus making them less noticeable. I could be totally wrong but I think that's likely what happens here. IMHO I think the tests that Dave has done are no better than what a colourist would be able to do especially in regards to the Sony cameras. Just my two cents if anyone is interested

[@LeeZavitz]

Good test, Dave! Banding is a tough test to show on You tube because of the compression but you know what you are talking about so I'll take your word for it. Cheers.

[@trevorpinnocky]

A few things (learned from shooting the a7s, a7s ii, and a7r ii for over a year now): a. know your gamma curve. sony cine1, cine2, cine3, cine4, slog2, and slog3 all have different shapes. and all have different 'sweet spots' for exposure. b. expose correctly: the cine gamma are meant to be underexposed. the slogs, overexposed... all by different amounts c. shoot the optimal ISO for a scene. Overexposing the slogs will give very different results as you go up and down the ISO scale. You must know where the sweet spot is for each camera d. grade appropriately for your gamma curve. you can't grade the cine's the same as the slogs. they each have different strengths in the curve. even slog2 and slog3 both grade differently The correct combination of these things, along with capturing information at the highest rate your camera allows is how you avoid the 'tragedies' of 8bit vs 10bit.

[@Tellvia]

+trevorpinnocky The heavily underexposed footage (3-5 stops), especially when using s-log2, has only 1-2 stops of dynamic range left. Looking at the s-log 2 curve at 3-5 stops of underexposure from middle grey there are only less than 20 shades of gray of dynamic range left on the 10 bit scale and only 5 shades of gray on a 8 bit scale. The image on the FS5 is noisier because of it's smaller sensor, but the footage should hold better in grading than the 8 bit footage. When s-log2 or slog3 overexposed by 1 and 1.5 stops respectively the 10 bit footage will hold the extremes of grading better.

[@trevorpinnocky]

+TellWithVideo You absolutely don't want to live in the shadows with either slog2 or slog3. You're defeating the entire purpose of using those gammas if you do They must be overexposed and graded down to remove the noise in the shadows. Slog2 has precious little data at all the first few stops of the curve. slog3 has considerably more data in the shadows in 10bit, but really comes into its own above middle gray where the curve is essentially linear. If you have a 10bit camera you should be leaning heavily on the highlights for slog3. From 60IRE up to 109 IRE its' recording every bit of data you throw at it. That's why people advise so much against using slog3 on the a7s ii in 8bit. You're getting hundreds of shades more of data in the highlights with a 10bit camera if you expose there. Underexposing slog3 is probably one of the worst things you can do to that curve. But remember the FS5 just got the RAW firmware upgrade too. If I had the change, I'd be all over that camera. ;)

[@PostColorGear]

+trevorpinnocky great explanation Trevor. I was aware of a lot of those points but you explained it well. which sony cameras actually output 10 bit? I know the GH4 does and the BMPCC too but they are different manufacturers.

[@trevorpinnocky]

+The Post Color Blog (Dave's Tuts) The FS5 and FS7 shoot 10bit and some of the Sony camcorders like the SONY PXW-X70 (only $1,999). The a7 series of camera don't output at that rate yet due to the sensor size and the amount to data involved. Hopefully future versions with more powerful processors will. :)

[@PostColorGear]

Ah, the pxw-x70, I didn't realize.

[@greysuit17]

It would really be interesting to see the a6300 compared to the FS5 in a similar test. The "6k" down sampled to 4K on the a6300 compared to to the FS5 is kinda intriguing especially since the price points are so drastically different.

[@videograph]

Hi Dave! The color shifting (green to blue) on the Canon C100 is only in C-Log mode. I have a lot of problems with it when first time edit the wedding, shooted at the 5DM3 and C100. Now I shooting on the C100 only in WideDR gamma mode.

[@DaveDugdaleColorado]

Interesting, I have not heard that before, thanks for sharing!

[@chosenideahandle]

Canon errs on the side of their own ideas for skin tone people go on about, and that choice has an associated cost. Dave, you have that fancy qualifier tool in Resolve to fix the skin! :-D

[@inviaggiocoltubo]

great video Dave! just two days ago me and a friend of mine were talking about this 8bit vs 10bit and this video came in the right time!! good job!

[@mattiacono4121]

I really appreciate you doing all of these tests! I know it's a lot of work to do these, so I just wanted to let you know. A lot of us learn more than you probably think from your videos so thank you for that! 🙏

[@HardwareCanucks]

Really informative video Dave! Thank you for doing this. I was surprised at how sharp and detailed FS5 1080p footage was. I wish you would have done some 4K tests on the FS5 as well :) Just to see how the noise is handled in Slog-x profiles and higher res. -Dmitry.

[@Pierluca72]

+HardwareCanucks The fs5 is only 8 bit at 4k

[@whatelse6637]

+HardwareCanucks The sharp on the FS5 at 1080p its because it records 4k in camera and down converts it to 1080p. :D

[@abhijaytyagi6808]

didn't expect to see your comment here. :)

[@nissimperetz1985]

would you by a camera that make with chit pictures.

[@CrescendoKeysChannel]

@@whatelse6637 A7s II should be doing the same yet not as sharp as FS5.

[@MarcosRochaTV]

Usually I don't care to get super technical with cameras, but this was so good to see! I love the in depth comparisons.

[@DSLRguide]

thanks for doing this Dave - my conclusion: it's a myth that 8bit always falls apart in grading.

[@DaveDugdaleColorado]

+DSLRguide thanks Simon, really like your channel, you are doing a great job!

[@BenMensah]

+DSLRguide I think the myth came from earlier 8-bit cameras and such. Like how people say digital cameras have poor dynamic range in comparison to film cameras. This was only true in the beginning. I think the same case stands for 8-bit. P.S LOVE YOUR CHANNEL BRO

[@whatelse6637]

+DSLRguide Nice vídeo nice comparative, but dont forget that FS5 do 1080p capturing and down convert in camera. A7sx i dont know how the camera capture de 1080p but It seams it also down convert. Anyone can confirm if A7Sx use down convert in camera like FS5?

[@charlesBenincasa]

+DSLRguide Obviously 8bit holds well when reasonable exposure and low ISO is used but i think the really implication here is the fact that 4k 8bit does well in comparison to 10bit 422 because UHD "4K" HAS DOUBLE THE horizontal and vertical chrominance data (CR,CB) regardless if its sampled at 4.2.0 8bit...I guess high resolution video give more information for video editing software to make estimated guesses when changing RGB color channel and when lifting luminance and chrominance levels.

[@zsoldier]

+Dave Dugdale @davedugdale I still think setting picture profile gamma to "still". (isnt this the one closest to rec709?) . i think its not a flat profile/good contrast + saturated /non-flat colors. When i got the a7s long time ago. I was looking for vids on green screen using a7s. there was none. so i did quick tests on my own. profile "Still" barely had any noise compared to other gammas. all i did was 1 click. no adjustments needed using keylight compared to other profiles. I posted this in a7s facebook group page , but i guess not a lot of people green screen ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[@НикитаДербышев-т9х]

Dave now you got really hi-end videos about technical stuff that are really informative! You just take the Right theme, and make the "Right in the eye" videos about. You may really be proud of yourself! Just remember to shout a lot of videos for you family and yourself, try not to forget over all technical stuff what is the main purpose of capturing moving pictures - save history (for your family and others) and try not to forget about backups and storing you video archive for future generations. Any way thank you for making a lot of worthy work and sharing it with us! It's super-cool!

[@3BMEP]

Dave, GREAT info! I'd love to understand how down-rez'd 4K allows for what appears to be just as much editing headroom as a bump to 10-bit!

[@LennertK]

For this type of video, might I suggest exporting and uploading to KZbin in 4K, even though you didn't shoot or edit in 4K. If we then select 4K in our player, KZbin will handle the video with a higher bitrate meaning we get a much more detailed image even though it's not actual 4K. You probably already knew of this but I might as well suggest it anyway.

[@ViktorStudiosOficial]

+Flikkert This! I was about to make this comment :) Nevertheless great video. Thank you for putting your time in it, Dave!

[@DaveDugdaleColorado]

+Flikkert thanks for the idea. I have never tried that so I might have to do some testing.

[@LennertK]

+Dave Dugdale You're welcome! I learned this from LinusTechTips, they did a video where they showed a lot about down- and upscaling, and now their workflow is basically: they shoot in 4K, convert to Cineform 1080p to edit with GPU acceleration, and then export in 4K again to get the high bitrate in KZbin. Also, I read my comment again and I think I might have come over a bit unfriendly, so I just want to add it still was a very informative video! Thanks for doing all the effort!

[@jjjumoc-casas646]

Super helpful! I shoot with the FS5 primarily now over my A7S + Shogun for 4k. In the right conditions, aka majority of my commercial shoots where I am working with controlled light, it’s totally fine. For anyone who relies heavily on natural light, the A7S series is surely a godsend. Other than the obvious differences that one is a video camcorder and the other is a photo camera that does video, *rigging* the A7/S series can be a pain point, especially if and when you rely on getting the shot quickly. I still love our A7S but I made it a point that you have to essentially “Frankenstein” it via the XLR audio capabilities, extended battery, external monitor/recorder along with a cage and rails to make it all work. But coming back to your video, you did an excellent job illustrating the quality of both cameras and in most cases, it’s in the eye of the beholder that matters [you clearly showed this by showing zoomed-in examples for those who are watching via phones/tablets] Because, what good is shooting in 4K+ if you’re audience is watching on a small screen. :)

[@seankenney7756]

I think I've watched this video a dozen times; excellent job Dave! So many comments like "4k 8 bit does not become 10 bit!" But I think your argument can be summed up as, "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck." Fine, it's not 10 bit. It just looks like 10 bit and gives you all the benefits of 10 bit. Maybe we should call it "8 Bit Plus." ;)

[@OneShotCSGO]

10 bit has less banding and it retains color information when manipulating the image. 8 bit becomes desaturated when you stretch the information and you can clearly see it in your face. it's important to not confuse this with dynamic range which i believe many do. But it also depends a lot on lens and sensor and even nd filters. Everything you put in front of the camera will degrade the image both colors and dynamic range. pro/cinema camera with higher dynamic range and bit depth you can pull out information in both highlights and shadows with excellent color information there. 8 bit dslrs like in this video you have to get the image right in camera because you can't pull from shadows and highlights in post. if the dynamic range of the scene is manageable and you do it as good as you can in camera it won't be much different from same scene shot with cinema camera after color grading. So the pros with a cinema camera is the diversity of scenes it can handle compared to dslrs and it is more forgiving if you dont nail the exposure.

[@ParsianTV]

Doug, as usual, this is another phenomenal video. In regards to the noise in RAW (sensor data without compression): when recording RAW, the footage is not processed by the camera's onboard Digital Signal Processor (DSP) which handles the noise. Hence the noise reduction must be applied during edit.

[@Jaxinmotion1]

Great video Dave. Thanks for taking the time to do this comparison. It's exactly the test I've been hoping to see for a while.

[@xtazysv]

Hey Dave, Thanks for doing this video. I've noticed some skin tone difference in the initial test with you in the studio (underexposed then brought back the exposure). The 10 bit has more color detail in the skin tones, where the 4k 8bit looks clean but with a somewhat averaged color throughout the face. Just my 2 cents. Keep up the good work!

[@DaveDugdaleColorado]

+xtazysv thanks for the input, I will look at it again.

[@AlanJMash]

I can't believe I watched this whole video. But I did, and thanks for doing this...learned a lot. Good job.

[@indeit]

great video. but I got few questions. 1. when you shot in 4k on the a7Rii - the footage you showed was rendered down to 1080? or left at 4k? 2. what does the 10bit fs5 look like compared at 4k, next to the a7rii at 8bit 4k?

[@jackevans5969]

I am learning color with Davinci, and I've gotten the pleasure of coloring around 3-4 different short films, mostly using the Blackmagic 4K, and then recently I did one with the A7S. That is a 4K vs 1080 comparison so I do realize that, but with quality of color tones, that shouldn't make a difference. Grading the A7S was so much more difficult than the Blackmagic footage. Not because of sharpness, not because of low-light (the a7s was much better in low-light, obviously). To get very specific looks alongside quality skin tones, the a7s takes a lot of work to make your images not look, what I'll call "mushy". The colors blend together badly, the skin tones and highlights so easily look very yellow and globby, while the Blackmagic footage looked clean and natural and was able to be shaped much easier without many secondary color layers. If you are not a colorist, you may not really be able to tell the difference. Putting in the time with it is what allows you to see it much easier. However, that begs the question of whether or not this debate really matters, if most people can't see it. I'm not quite sure. But that has been my experience. I don't own an a7 camera at this point, but most of what I like to do is narrative film work. For that reason, I will think twice before purchasing one.

[@ChrisLaxamana]

I love your dedication to the science of testing. Great videos sir! I'm constantly impressed by my A7sii vs my FS5. The A7s is tiny beast of a camera. Often times I find I'm using my FS5 just for client facing purposes and the internal ND filters (so handy).

[@JoshuaDiaz05]

Which one do you think give to you a better look?

[@ChrisLaxamana]

@@JoshuaDiaz05 my comment was from 5 years ago. So at this point it's between the A7s iii and FX6. Since both share the same sensors both will give you relatively the same images. It just comes down to use case. If you're smaller / run and gun, and on a budget go for the A7s iii. Love that camera.

[@MichaelSchagen]

About the green shirt turning blue on the C100; Recently I noticed exactly the same on a small Canon camera I bought (s120). My suspicion then was that Canon has put a little tweak into their firmware which basically says: "If there is a patch of green with a hue identical to that of overexposed sky, shift the hue towards sky-blue". I also suspected this because I never saw a picture coming out of the camera with the typical greenish overexposed sky as I have seen from other camera's. Such a tweak makes sense on a small-sensor consumer cam, but it appears this tweak also ended up inside the C100. Fortunately this particular hue of green is rare in nature and if you had not shown me the shirt was green, I would never have thought anything was wrong with the image. Good to see someone doing practical tests rather then just repeating what others are saying. Must have been a lot of work though.

[@ScaramouchedaVinci]

I have the same Problem with the alpha 6400. The FS100 and FS700 is good.

[@smaakjeks]

If nothing else, this video showed me how to more easily correct video clips. "Lumetri color" effect is much faster than "luma curve"! Thanks, Dave!

[@mikerozman]

Thanks for detailed and well thought out tests Dave I really appreciate the time and effort you put in to make these types of videos. Can't wait for your A7S II course! Consider mine pre-ordered. Keep up the great work!

[@DaveDugdaleColorado]

+Mike Rozman thanks for your support.

[@N2CatCrew]

Awesome video, I agree about A7s putting out a fantastic image

[@relelliott]

great video Dave. definitely a topic a lot of us have thought about, but don't know a whole lot about!

[@Fqdunjy]

Your hard working shows us interesting results! Thank you for doing this test, Dave! Love this video!

[@michaeltech7506]

I'm just a random techey but have a few inputs. You-tubes codex compresses and converts the video 8bit color anyways and if your monitor on your computer is only 8 bit you really don't get the full use of your camera. Also the only advantage of 4k to 1080p 8bit conversion is you have more info to work with for the pixles you are compressing; you don't get more colors ie 10bit color. I enjoyed the fact you took your time and showed true differences in performance that can bee seen to a general consumer. I was very skeptical that you could show any difference on KZbin at all but you managed to show and explain your method. This is the first video I watched and I'm thinking of checking out the rest of your videos keep up the good work!!

[@chrisgibbsphoto]

Great piece Dave. This 8bit vs. 10bit video debate is looking a lot like the still guys lossy vs. lossless RAW debate. Under normal conditions, with a reasonably well exposed file, the differences are minor after normal post-processing. Furthermore, when presented on **highly compressed social media platforms** both files (video and stills) will basically render the same. Thanks ~Chris

[@vancouverislandnorthnorth2311]

Dave, I think your right about the 4K turning into a 10 bit 1080p signal. I notice the same effects with my GH4 cameras. Way better then the best 1080p cameras can produce in a 10 bit signal.

[@matrodmedia]

Great video as usual, Dave! Your conclusions about 4K 8-bit on the A7xII cameras & the 10-bit HD on the FS5 being pretty much equally good: you're absolutely right. The type of banding that people are so used to seeing is a compression artifact, rather than bit-depth, in the case of web-viewing. Which also explains why we see so much more banding on any video, no matter what the camera, after KZbin's compressed it. Man, Sony has sure sent people for a loop giving consumer-grade cameras S-Log. It's inspired and driven a lot of people, but it's confused just as many. But hey, there's always Cine4.

[@SMOOTTHH1]

I know it takes a lot of time to make theses videos and I am sure that everybody appreciates these types of video’s. Thank you for your time and keep up the excellent work.

[@DaveDugdaleColorado]

+Da Media Man thanks. Not everyone does judging by the down votes on this one.

[@panmaew]

These are great tests you've done Dave. They tell a lot about the cameras and the technicality we seem to be too obsessed with. Keep it up! You would get 2 thumbs up from me if this weren't a KZbin viewing!

[@tptrsn]

WOW Dave, thank you!!! This is truly one of the BEST informational videos I've ever seen! I will watch it again, and maybe again after that... Lol

[@DaveDugdaleColorado]

+Hammerhaus Kennel thanks!

[@Solveiga555]

totally agreed :), thanks so much Dave :)

[@tptrsn]

I keep having to come back and watch this video again every so often Dave. You hit a home run with this one! And BTW, I finally broke down and grabbed a Sony camera again (a6500). Man I LOVE it!

[@MarcoBagnoli]

the first real difference i feel is at 12bit even if the shoot was probably exposed.Its much easier to pull colors in and out out of 12bit 1080p Canon C500 footage than out of 4k 10bit Canon C500 footage

[@datarevolution8745]

Thanks for the video! Very helpful, and it's amazing too see such a shift in colors in such high end cameras

[@TheFadesign]

Good information. I don't do videos but I was surprised to see the issue with the blue/green t-shirt. The same happens very often when printing, blues and greens are always the hardest colors to match from screen to print.

[@tonypmedia]

Stop questioning yourself and constantly telling us who you are not.. your RESULTS show that you know what you are doing. There's tons of pros that overthink the hell out of this and it's not that crucial. Expose properly and all those "pro level" substances goes with it regardless. You did a fantastic job and you knew what you were doing. Your EXPERIENCE shows you don't need an expensive camera to achieve results and this is living proof that the "consumer camera" outshoots an actual cinema camera. You're experienced and I'm positive you get paid for your work.. you're a professional on another level. Those "pros" you talked to towards the end of he vid sounds to me they have absolutely no idea what they are even talking about, just sounding smart. Either it does or it don't there's no in-between. Keep doing you man, I love this!

[@PixelBokeh]

Thanks for putting the time and energy into creating this video. Some good comparisons. A suggestion for any future test would be to put the titles and info for the camera a bit higher up in the frame. If you pause KZbin to look at the images, the play button, mute, CC, and other options are overplayed right on top of the camera title info. Not a huge issue, but sometimes tricky to read.

[@DavidLGood]

I sure do miss new Dave Dugdale videos. It's surprising how many of these videos, although posted years ago, are still useful today.

[@crisfehr]

Thanks for the comparison Dave. Great work as always!

[@RichardWait]

Very informative. Thanks Dave. Not a lot of people have access to a number of cameras like that, so your comparisons (even with the issues you had - and admitted too) are super valuable - Very impressed with the A7Sii. How about providing us a small selection of unedited footage from the FS5 and A7Sii (maybe the mountain/sky one) for us to see with our own eyes?

[@Ssjutsu]

I love your videos sir! So honest and informative. You definitely inspire me to keep creating content to one day be on the level you're on.

[@mikeyfl]

Thanks Dave for putting yourself out there on these tests, and actually doing them. I appreciate your common sense candid reviews!

[@and5rs]

Thanks for spending the time doing this! Great video!

[@RobbyHuang]

Interesting comparison! I feel like more important than anything is noise performance at high ISO. It's just so important for anything but the most controlled shooting environments. And haha, dude, good on you for making these man. All that effort and I imagine the majority of the comments are probably going to be people who don't put any effort into anything telling you everything you did wrong hahaha.

[@TheTripleTiger]

Awesome video, Dave! Thanks for your hard work you put into this.

[@BillPutnamPhoto]

Hi Dave - this is great. Thanks for the efforts. Just a question: why didn't you shoot the FS5 in 4K to compare it to the A7?

[@DaveDugdaleColorado]

+Bill Putnam because 4K on the fs5 is only 8 bit.

[@BillPutnamPhoto]

+Dave Dugdale Ok makes sense. Like I said, man, appreciate everything you did here.

[@TheTechnoPilot]

Thanks for this very illuminating video Dave! It definitely gives me somethings to think about for my professional video work.

[@atobit2765]

Dave, Nice informative video.However, it's unfair, it leads people's thinking the FS5 in not a worth choice. It compare cameras in a single particular situation.It would have been nice if at the end you could have remind everyone how bad is the A7R/SII rolling shutter and the 24/25/30fps 4K limitations, over heating issue, very short battery life... The FS5 correct all those issues.I think it only comfort most of us that can only afford A7 serie cameras.

[@BigDSProductions]

I used to be very concerned with color sub-sampling numbers when comparing cameras. But after several years of working with various codecs and cameras, I don't care as much anymore. I'm not a pro colorist, but with our smaller budgets, I've had to do a lot of color over the years. I've dealt with lots of bad footage from various camera operators. I have often been surprised just how far some footage can be stretched and still look just fine. And how horrible some other stuff looked with very little adjustment. I had an experience where I had been outputting the RAW output of an FS700 to an external recorder that recorded it as 10-bit 4k ProRes. But something went wrong and about half the footage was lost. So, I had to use the internal 8-bit 4:2:0 AVCHD footage. I assumed I was screwed as I was exposing for a linear gamma that was being recorded as SLOG3 by the recorder. I was shocked at how good the color corrected internal SLOG2 footage looked (no internal SLOG3 in the FS700)! Yes, the ProRes stuff still looked better, but the difference was negligible when watching the finished video. Another guy at the same event was using a GH4 using VLOG. He was fairly new to the camera. And his exposure was all over the place. It all corrected to an acceptable level, but the VLOG did not impress me at all. Nailing exposure was definitely more important for the VLOG as it's shadows were insanely noisy. RAW is now the only feature that would now sway my decisions. I have recorded some challenging subjects (dynamic range wise) with my FS700 and a Atomos Shogun capturing as CDNG. And the amount of latitude with the RAW CDNG footage is simply amazing. So, unless you can give me RAW output, than all the 8-bit, 10-bit, 420, 422, arguments no longer interest me. And RAW output does not happen until you're spending some decent money. Without it, I want to see the image quality and do some actual color correction to make my decision. To that end, I recently picked up a Sony a6500 and a friend was shocked I'd go with a camera that only records internally at 8-bit 420 and externally (which is what I normally will be doing) at 8-bit 422. But it looks fine and I'm getting as much color correction as I'd ever need to match it to my FS700 with no obvious difference in image quality. knowing how to properly use your camera and properly expose is so much more important than all those numbers.

[@PresidentialFilm]

The benefits to me for greater bit depth is when the project is mastered in HDR. When viewing a 10bit+ image on an HDR monitor it's much more pleasing to view then 8bit.

[@VFXforfilm]

I feel you pain Dave. I teach high end techniques in VFX world the likes of ILM. Only because nobody in VFX does the tutorials (mine are on plural sight/digital tutors). Then I get backlash because of one mention of misinformation. You ARE a professional sir.

[@DaveDugdaleColorado]

+VFXforFilmmakers.com thank you!

[@Joey_Helms]

super helpful video dave! I am considering buying an A7SII and was concerned with the banding, but you took my fears :D ... now question is, shall i go for the S II or R II :D I am photographer but want to do way more video :D

[@DaveDugdaleColorado]

You will like my next video, I talk about which one I use more.

[@Joey_Helms]

Awesome! Can you give a sneak peak on your decision? I likely want to order today as I will head to Rocky Mountains on Saturday and want something more compact in addition to my BMCC ;)

[@universaInformation]

don;t listen n he has no idea what he talks,I have sony a7s II and blackmagic pocket which shoots 12bit raw or 10bit prores,you just can;t compare to shitty 8bit log footage from sony, as soon you grade banding and magenta all over.it's simple if 8bit log file is shit.

[@LukeFlegg]

Mate, you are so good at this. If I ever need a turbo geek to pull apart and analyse video footage, I'm at your door. Love your way.

[@DavidHarry]

Great video and great real world tests. It's all well and good reading specs etc. but there's no substitute for practical examples, as you've proven. If your target outputs are going to be 8bit, as in most nearly every domestic format. Then filming 4K 8 Bit 4:2:0 for downscaling to 1080, is an excellent option. Couple that with much cheaper media and the cheaper camera, then the choices are more obvious. I shoot interviews on an AX100 in UHD and edit downscaled at 1080, it is very good and really clean. Give Edius by Grass Valley a try, it allows you to select Lanczos for the downscaling algorithm when editing 4K in a 1080 timeline.

[@Vimbasiwarrior]

Your humility and transparency are amazing. Thank you for being so clear.

[@dutchgroundmedia]

Great video Dave! But of course the question for me is... how does the FS5 10bit 4k RAW do it compared to the 8bit 4K of the A7Rii ???

[@wreck2]

As being a RED owner, with older RED cameras (MX sensor), yes, you did need IR filters with your NDs, however, with Dragon and above, you do not, so I think that hurt the image a little. Also, the Skin-Tone highlight OLPF should not be used for under-exposure, but the Low-Light or Standard OLPFs should have been used. And another, what ISO was the Scarlet shot at? For example, if you shot at 800ISO, using ND to underexpose, then raised blacks in post, you are now at 3000+ ISO levels. If you shot at 250ISO, used ND to underexpose, then raised in post, the noise would be much less. All about understanding the equipment, limitations, and workarounds. Hope you get the RED Weapons to play with! (Raven included)

[@chosenideahandle]

I totally get how you'd be better off coming back from 250ISO in post. Of course you can't really assign equivalent ISO values to gain in post vs. in-camera gain, but I know what you're saying looks like is happening.

[@wreck2]

Since RED cameras shoot RAW, ISO is nothing but metadata, and can be changed in post. You would simply use the ISO slider to change from ISO 250 and slide it up to 2000+, just like a RAW still in Photoshop. If you raised blacks instead, there's a LOT more data in the blacks when shooting low ISOs to recover from. (This chart is old, but reflects the color science at the time of this video that was uploaded in 2016.) artbyphil.com/phfx/red/dragon/images/phfx_redDragon_ISOExamples.jpg

[@Jason_Hermann]

Really excellent work Dave! Thank you for sharing the knowledge and explaining this is such detail. Proof is in the putting ;) Jay

[@WarfareHD1]

This is the reason I sold my blackmagic and got a Sony a6300. Because unless you are filming a TV commercial or short film you don't need anything higher then 8 bit. If uploading to KZbin or any website you will get 8 bit and that's why I saw so much banding on the FS5 side even tho it was at 10 bit. I say besides the 8 bit vs 10 bit the A7sii is a much superior video camera because of the full frame and clean ISO performance

[@AeroSport103]

Good video Sir. I appreciate the time and energy you invest in these productions. Take care, be safe!

[@glacio95]

Great video as always, but some of this stuff has really little to do with the 10 or 8 Bit output, specially when you compare it to the A7Sii, with is a kind of a special case considering its one of a kind sensor.

[@adepew]

Thanks for the test. I like your methodology and the fact that you not only check with others, but make it clear where your lack expertise. Also, at 13:21 and I think possibly in other places as well you mention a7sII, while the title in the corner says a7rII. In other places I think it is the other way around.

[@MegaSina777]

Hi Dave... Thanks for the great video. What setting do U recommend on A7Sii for shooting in low light situation?

[@rgbman01]

Very informative Dave Dugdale thank you for all your time on this. Quick question, when you convert your 4K to 1080, must you actually render out the 4k to 1080 and then bring into a 1080 timeline OR can you simply drop the 4k onto a 1080 timeline, scale to frame size and begin grading? Thanks for the info again.

[@kentgunnufson7730]

Thanks Dave, the combination of your video and comments gave me a lot information! But taking on the issue was key! BTW, I noticed your from my former haunts... Superior and Breckenridge.

[@skyltdockan]

Great video as always Dave. I noticed though that you have a new monitor compared to the LG 34UM95-P that won your heart during the monitor shoot out a year and a half ago, or perhaps you have multiple setups on different locations. What are you using now and what are your thoughts on using a curved monitor for mainly editing photos? (Looking in for an upgrade to my 6 year old 23" IPS)

[@MikeSpille]

As you say, in the end it's results that matter. Thanks so much for putting together another informative video. I can't wait for the a7sii course!

[@jppelc5546]

Thanks Dave, this is great. The issue for me is that 4k video produces such massively huge files that shooting and storing all my footage in 4k causes a huge expense in memory card and hard drive purchases. Having 4k is great to have for a few shots here and there that you want room to crop and pan in post, but to me it is a bit impractical to shoot everything in 4k just because it adds a little bit of color depth.

[@MediaEditLondon]

Thanks for putting this together Dave, most appreciated, keep em coming.

[@BenMensah]

This video is so refreshing. I always thought that my 5D Mark III needed 10 bit and 4-2-2, although it would help with grading, it's not as needed as i thought. A better codec at 35Mbps+ and a bit more resolution and i'm more than good to go. Heck, if anything i'm good to go now. Thanks Dave!

[@zuzkarory]

Great video man! Just the kind of useful exploration of something people talk about all the time but rarely actually test! Quick question, could you do a video on the difference between the A7s II shooting on the shogun vs. internally, and see the differences between 4:2:0 and 4:2:2? Or just say some of the differences you've found between when you use the internal codec on the a7sII vs on the Shogun? Thanks!

[@y-adouradou446]

Thanks Dave! I have actually shoot an advertising and put the A7Rii in the mix with the FS7. When grading, I couldn't see any difference, neither my color grader. Plus the camera became very handy when we weren't shooting on the tripod. On the plus size of the FS7, the higher fps rate at 1080, can do slow motion, wasn't possible on the A7Rii.

[@adri3n1991]

Thank you for your time and patience producing such a great & informative video.

[@DenSeleznov]

Dave, so great review and right when I need it cause I'm investing in a7s2 and was worried about how really big deference is between mirrorless and proper video cameras. In case of 4K how did you process it? Did you put 4k on 1080 sequence, export it and than made a grading. Or you grade at the same time with downscaling? Thank you.

[@motornationnetwork9068]

Great video Dave. I would love to see a video like this on cine lenses.

[@T-Slider]

Thanks for having the guts to put it out there! Even though you were talking over my head, I learned a little. Thanks

[@incardonefilms]

I have the FS5, Fantastic camera if you know what you're doing, I have Primes and Nikon glass. If you know how to light it blows away DLSRs.

[@KikujiroChan]

I have the feeling that Dave isn't a professional colorist.

[@MisterNerdigamer]

kkkkkk

[@ЭтоДрючинский]

If you downscale 4k footage you don't get 10 bit footage. 10 bit isnt't there! You get no color discriditation, because color information is gathered now from 4 pixel to one, that's true. I guess 4k looks better on a7r only because of sampling. The concept is: in 10 bit your signal is encoded as (for instance) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 (and so on). In 8 bit you get something like 1, 3, 5, 7 and so on. So you get less intermediate information you hardly notice normally. But when you're grading (pushing value of 7 to level of 5 for instance) you rise the gap between the values and the lack of value 8 between 7 and 9 (in our example) becomes visible. The question is how wide your dr is and how hard yu grade. That's all.

[@valtteribhaskar5874]

truth

[@undefinablereasoning]

+Anri Orlow You get 4X the color sampling so you're far less likely to band. It's not "equal" to 10 bit footage, its better, depending on how the footage was down-scaled.

[@tubularsensation]

Don't know if that is altogether true after reading something Andrew Reid had on his site regarding this issue. I can't remember who he referenced on this 4K downscale to 1080 equating to 10bit, but it was a reputable individual, that pretty much agreed mathematically you were getting 10bit. Who knows, the bottom line here is seeing is believing, regardless if the test was done right or wrong, if 4K downscaled is indeed 10bit, all that doesn't matter, the results speak for themselves!

[@undefinablereasoning]

Steve M. I'm a programmer by trade, you do not get 10 bit color mathematically. With every set there is some overlap, therefore when recording in 10 bit color there are 2^8 values in 10 bit color per color channel that can be directly converted to 8 bit color. 2^10 = 1024 2^8 = 256 You lose 75% of the color information off the bat the moment you chose to record in 8 bit. It may be tempting to think that since the color sampling is 4X, that 4*2^8 = 1024 = 2^10, so you're getting 10 bit color, but you're not. This is because the final product is still 8 bit and cannot normally represent the full range of 10 bit colors. Now if you happened to have a method of down-scaling which produces a 10 bit color video, you would get some but not necessarily all of the 10 bit color range. The reason it looks so good is because the 4X sampling compensates for the small size of the pixels(which leads to the same color information being captured because they are so close together-this is what causes banding). Effectively the same principle as the larger pixel size on the a7s lineup.

[@tubularsensation]

+undefinablereasoning - Well, Alls I can say is what was explained to me, and from what I understood, it made sense to me, I wished I could remember the name of this guy as he was no "Johnny come lately", so you might have a hard time telling him he's wrong!

[@martinpauly]

Thank you for putting this elaborate comparison together. Very helpful for me!

[@dallatorretdu]

Will the A7II or A7SII produce a better result than the A7RII?

[@danielzee]

I own a FS5, I was disappointed in the low light noise compared to the Nikon D750, that's right, the 750 is very good for video. Anyways, what I wanted to say was that for a lot of projects, you might not want to be dealing with huge 4k files from the a7Sii or 7R, just so that you can downsize them to 1080, why not just use the smaller files from the FS5? Just another consideration. - Storage space and editing speed. And thanks Dave for the video, love your stuff.

[@kikojiu]

Daniel I don´t think the files from the A7sII are so big. They actually get huge when we convert them into prores 422HQ :-)

[@karlfacredyn4842]

Thanks Dave, this is incredibly helpful. I love your no-nonsense approach.

[@donfloyd868]

Finally! thanks so-much for that, -- many of us needed that comparison, that kind of thoughtful reviewing is why u remain my favorite when it comes to film stuff, that and your real-life non-commercial style. Now how-about reviewing one of those stabilized arm-things for weightless camera operation, goodbye!

[@2minutemasteryphotoandfilm845]

Hi Dave! Thanks for sharing the work on this! I enjoy your comparisons. My team and I own the whole range of Sony's from original A7's to F55. I can say of the Fs5 I really like the size of it ... I fly a lot. When using the Fs5 against the Fs7 - they are supposed to have the same sensor, but in Slog, the fs5 iso is 3200, and the fs7 is 2000. Like when I first got the A7S (first version) I found it noisy in the low end and always preferred overexposed a stop. I do the same with the FS5 making it more of an ISO 1600 and losing a stop of top end. In practice, I don't see the loss of a stop in the top end, and am MUCH happier with the noise in the bottom end when over-exposing that extra stop like a I did with the A7S. I may overall lose a stop of dynamic range, but I much prefer the image ... so to my thinking I'm not losing a stop that "wasn't there for me" to start with.

[@Splendiddddd]

Hi Dave, thanks again for the video. Would be nice if you could test out the A6300, besides the overheating and other issues that camera uses a 6k sensor scaled down to 4k. Its amazing and according to some even better iq then the A7sii & A7Rii. Low light is also reported between the rii and the sii. Keep up the good work! Cheers

[@EmileModesitt]

Thanks for this, Dave! Your videos are great. Random question - why did you choose a curved display over a flat one?

[@DaveDugdaleColorado]

+Emile Modesitt because I don't need to move my head.

[@worldbackgorundtv907]

Super super helpful video- thanks for the effort that went into this!

[@TheGrumpyMunchkins]

If you make sure your exposure and other parameters are okay before filming, 8 bit is fine. Hollywood still widely uses 8 bit. The big difference to anyone reading this is that 10 bit is more post editing friendly, if you want to adjust said parameters.

[@KeithCreative]

Hey Dave! Great review. Quick question, are you seeing a big difference between recording internally versus recording through the Atomos with the a7r/a7s in 4K?