Wind and Truth Reactions 1 (FULL BOOK SPOILERS) | Shardcast

[@vegapunkrecords]

I have a really hard time understanding why folks felt like the utilitarianism debate was hamstrung by it being "elementary". The whole thing wasn't meant to be a debate over the merits or issues with utilitarianism. The whole debate was a huge trap. If you support utilitarianism, you lose. If you don't support utilitarianism, you lose. Remember - Taravangian comes in with the argument that he KNOWS BEST, and that Jasnah (who is proudly a utilitarian), agrees with him. The main objections to utilitarianism is that when taken to extremes, it becomes incredibly obvious that there are huge issues with "sacrifice 1 person to save 2". Common objections, in my understanding, fall into 2 general categories - arguments against "perfect information" and arguments against "definition of utility". Most of the former is explicitly covered during the debate - Jasnah understands that operating from limited information makes "naive utilitarianism" not tenable. However - she's arguing against a divinity - who has a LEGITIMATE claim to being able to make "perfect information choices". But this is TRICKY! This means that Taravangian completely bypasses a whole category of arguments against utilitarianism! Therefore, in order to counter Taravangian, Jasnah must attack utilitarianism from the "definition of utility" side. However - arguing AGAINST the idea that Taravangian has a good understanding of "what is best" - simply means pointing out all of the ruthless shit he does in the name of the "greater good". But doing so forces her to completely cede HER moral high ground, since Taravangian came with receipts! She can either concede that she's doing the same thing as Taravangian, and thus concede he'd would do a better job due to having divine information, or she can concede that she's doing things more selfishly. Either case means that she loses. The strength of the debate doesn't lie in the fact that the philosophical arguments are complex or not. It lies in the fact that there was no way for her to win. Conceding that Fen should "make the best choice for her people" means Taravangian wins. Conceding that Fen should "make the best choice for Roshar" means doing the utilitarianism debate - which means Taravangian wins due to having the overwhelming information advantage. I think it was brilliantly done, and I'm surprised that folks didn't like it.

[@Valiguss]

This is a perfect rundown, and I thought it was rather well done, especially because jasnah explicitly acknowledges she cannot say something that comes relatively standard in utilitarianism which is that she is “morally obligated to do the best she can with the informations available” because yeah tarvangian just has so much more information

[@Tridona]

Ohhh this is a brilliant breakdown of it Im screenshotting this. Thanks

[@finne6452]

I also think we're meant to be frustrated with Jasnah here - her approach was all wrong for the kind of person Fen is. She would have fared much better if she tried to connect with Fen on an emotional level (which Jasnah wouldn't have done because of who she is at this point in the story).

[@Valiguss]

I will make some corrections though because I do study ethics and am familiar with the debates. You are missing a third category of argument against utilitarianism, which usually relies on the killing let die distinction. The second category is also not often present, it’s rly part of the first because the problem isn’t utility per se it’s that many argue making comparisons between the utility values of two people is impossible. The other thing that is important is that both of the characters are clearly act utilitarians which inform this argument. Its also important as a final note to correct the problem the information presents, it is not that taravangaian sidesteps a whole section of arguments against utilitarianism (these aren’t good arguments anyway and I can elaborate if need be). It’s that Jasnah can’t make a number of claims about her own actions, specifically she cannot now say “I do the best I have with the information available as is reasonable” this would be what most would say in a argument like this, and if Jasnah was arguing with a mortal she would say this, in fact she explicitly acknowledged that in the book. The problem is if she says “I given the information available declare that all your actions have not been in pursuit of the greater good” or some variation there of, tarvangian can just claim with 100% legitimacy to have more information and then Jasnah just lost

[@vegapunkrecords]

@@Valiguss Ah. Yeah - I can see how the category distinctions could be drawn in the way you suggest. I do find it interesting though that we seem to explore the "killing / let die" distinction somewhat during both the first Odium interlude (where he mourns the death of a child he could've saved), and during the conversation w/ Harmony in Bands of Mourning. Effectively - divinities do not have a strong "killing / let die" distinction because of their quasi-omnipresent view of reality. Any act of "letting die" is felt personally by the shard - with explicit knowledge that they could prevent any individual tragedy. This makes the morality around action vs inaction especially tricky - leading to the problem of evil. But Taravangian already subscribes to there being no real distinction - since he's more than willing to accept blame for the deaths he causes unintentionally. He is fully willing to bite the bullet of being an "evil king" as long as his goals are met. I also generally agree with your reframe of the strategy Taravangian comes in with - that he forces any defense that Jasnah makes to be a losing one. I think it can be extended to a more general principle. They are fighting over Fen's confidence in Jasnah (and the coalition by extension). No matter what angle of attack Taravangian takes - he will be able to undermine that confidence with Jasnah's own history / arguments. Therefore - no matter what, he wins.

[@diegomilon7688]

The simetry of Kalak being greeted by the king of the heralds at the beginig and the end of the series felt really nice

[@17thShard]

Yeah, I loved that. Postlude was beautiful. -Eric

[@gabrieltkacz6754]

Also someone pointed out that the book titles are (almost) perfectly symmetrical: TWOK WOR O ROW KOW(a)T

[@caradine898]

I do find it very interesting the reactions to the Jasnah chapter, as I actually think the entire "debate" is sort of endemic to how debate works in the real world. We have found, particularly in recent years, that intellectual debate in a political context *doesn't seem to matter all that much.* The outcome of Jasnah's debate, regardless of the arguments that she could've brought to the table, was decided by how Fen would react, and not by how good her arguments were or weren't. Taravangian didn't need to come to the table with a good argument. He went their to Own Jasnah, casting doubt on her character and her ability to be an ally. His true victory wasn't Thaylenah-he could've gotten it by other means-it was cracking Jasnah's ego and confidence in her view of the world and more importantly, herself.

[@tuckerjohnson4082]

I completely agree, I think their frustration comes from wanting a philosophical debate from the two about utilitarianism, but that was never the point. They each need to convince Fen, who very clearly doesn’t care about the specifics of their moral philosophies.

[@MrVivisexy]

This hits especially hard with that line Jasnah has about how she deliberately steers the debate into the gnitty gritty philosophical points at times to "lose Fen." Her goal was always to beat Odium through her intellectual process which was self serving, rather than win over Fen, whose allegiance and loyalty she took for granted. And she acknowledged as much after she lost the debate.

[@Arctic_Stark]

@@tuckerjohnson4082 Indeed. Jasnah herself realizes the trap she's fallen in by taking the debate as an academic exercise when its more about how Fen feels.

[@heatherrockwell9012]

This is fair---but also, that doesn't invalidate the criticism of how badly the debate was portrayed. That is, it may be true that the point was that the philosophical debate didn't matter, but Jasnah still made an enormous amount of very basic mistakes that made her feel very incompetent.

[@17thShard]

Strap in, this is four hours long. (Reacts 2 could be even longer) -Eric

[@parkermm]

Perfect 😆

[@bo6686]

If the the reaction video is shorter than the Audiobook it's clearly rushed.

[@tesiu101]

After the audiobook 4h is just a quick listen :D

[@chipcollier4936]

Excited!

[@JennHernes]

the dream!

[@johnleonard644]

I liked the parallel/hypocrisy between Taravangian saving Kharbranth and him throwing in Jansah's face that she protects her family/nation first.

[@hockey1973]

Yeah. For me one of the most satisfying things at the end of the book was that Taravangian was forced to admit that he's a hypocrite. He spends the entire book with this arrogance that HE knows best and that he's doing this for the "greater good" and Dalinar forces him to admit he's a hypocrite who's only out for power. Coupled with the fact that he saved his people for selfish reasons forces him to admit that he is not, in fact, better than everyone else like he claims he is. He's forced to admit, that at the end of the day. . . he's just another dictator out for power and personal gain.

[@DarkChaos1986]

@@hockey1973 that's the most satisfying part of the book for me.

[@elekbuday81]

I have to disagree with David's defense of the Honorbearers, because he's falling into the exact same flawed line of reasoning that Szeth's arc is about overcoming. Yes, obviously if Ishar was sane then the Honorbearers obeying him would have been both good and lawful. The mistake that the Honorbearers made in obeying insane Ishar was that they chose to uphold tradition and law *even when* the specific circumstances showed that something was deeply wrong. Saying "oh, but under normal circumstances they'd have been right" completely misses the point, which is that sometimes you have to disobey the law because of complicated circumstances. Their moral flaw was blind obedience. You can't defend that flaw by saying they were obedient.

[@xintrosi6829]

I agree. While some of the arc was not what I wanted, this point was the same whether it was an Unmade, a mad Herald, or their normal traditions with normal mortal men. Blind adherence and obedience to tradition and hierachy just because it's tradition/hierarchy is what is being challenged by the arc. Saying that maybe obedience could have worked out if people weren't misled is tangential to the arc. They were misled and did evil and they should have noticed the issues and done better.

[@mpprod6631]

I totally agree. I feel like shardcast, as much as I love them and their knowledge, misses some of the most basic story beats. I was literally shouting at the screen when they were ranting that that was the whole point of the story! What the honorbearers did wrong was obey when they should have questioned. Really that was the whole narrative Arc for most of the characters in this book. Oaths/tradition/laws mean nothing if the motive and intent are not good. The journey AND destination matter equally.

[@Loomx5]

David's complaints about the Shinnovar arc absolutely blew my mind. I agree with Jessie saying that the flashbacks and the Monastaries should have been aligned better for are more emotional stake in some of these fights. But David seems to have completely missed the entire purpose of the arc. "It's not even people he can rationalise with, they are mindless Zombies!" 1. The entire culmination of the Flashback arcs is that Szeth tried to rationalise with them. Thats what lead to his civil war. The honour bearers chose this path despite repeated warning signs. They put down and killed any Honourbearers that even had a *hint* of disagreeing with Ishar. And then they died. 2. The purpose of Szeths arc is that he is... not an object? Or a "Mindless Zombie"? He gets to choose! They got to choose. It doesn't matter if they had convinced themselves it was their tradition. 3. As you say (elekbuday) this is just the same line of reasoning they use? If they had been doing the same things *conciously* and if ishar *had* been sane... that wouldn't have made it okay. This is very clearly laid out.

[@mpprod6631]

@@Loomx5 yeah that’s the there if most of the characters. That’s the goal Dalinar gave his life for. Oaths/laws/destinations mean nothing if your intents and actions aren’t good.

[@nick830668]

Like what Skar says to Adolin, orders only go as far until the situation changes.

[@TheMCChrisco]

The parallel between Szeth in his flashbacks externalizing his problems to others because morality was too difficult and no adults being responsible enough to teach him how to navigate those choices and leaving him stunted with a literal physical representation of his willing lack of agency (oathstone) and him continuing to externalize with Kaladin in this book was so good to me, because Kaladin as a protector and caregiver is so quick to offer a gentle and considerate perspective BUT also repeatedly return the agency to Szeth. it felt like the first time someone forced him to take his questions internally while knowing there was someone there to support him regardless. Like Neturo meant well and clearly loved his son, but wanted to shelter him from hardship, while Kaladin wanted to show him you can face hardship, and thus protected himself from the pain of living with the consequences of others' choices. UGH so good to me. also, Knights of Wind and Truth being written by his future wife, coupled with his fifth ideal swearing, were so powerful to me, because I really felt the completion of his arc with him becoming the principle actor in his own story.

[@fakjbf3129]

I loved the moment where Szeth brushes off Nightblood because what relevance does the moral crisis of a sword have to himself, completely missing the obvious parallel that he believes he is just a tool to be wielded by others.

[@vinitpatel7517]

I’m not sure how Lady Lameness thought there wasn’t much lead up for Szeths arc. He did so much in the book and literally fought every honor bearer while kaladin watched. Yea he takes a back seat during the Nale fight, but that’s because Szeth made a choice to not fight, which is a big part of his arc

[@JessietheSleepyKoala]

That’s not quite what I meant nor what I believe I said. 🙂 I think there was something missing for a part of Szeth’s arc that could have been fixed with a scene or two during the journey so that Szeth’s climax could have been more impactful - at least, that is what I would have liked to see. That doesn’t mean it is the only way it could have gone that I would have been happy with but it is the one that I have come up with as an example. Szeth choosing not to fight Nale is important and I believe there is a way that scene can exist in a very similar manner including Szeth realizing he is not able to fight Nale and needs Kaladin’s help - that is a huge step in his character arc. But I think having him fade into the background for the rest of the scene undercuts the point of setting Nale up as Szeth’s foil. Nale didn’t need to be defeated through violence, he need empathy and the reminder of who he could be and Szeth has spent the entire journey learning these things from Kaladin. It was disappointing to me to not have that payoff at the point I feel would have been most natural in the book. I think strengthening the scene with Nale and having Szeth be the one to get through to him with Kaladin and the Wind being his backup would have strengthened Szeth’s character story, but also would have helped the Ishar confrontation at the end of the book. As it stood, it felt repetitive - we had just had this big Kaladin moment, why are we having a second one so soon after? Again it felt like he was overshadowing Szeth, who was doing a lot on his own in that sequence. But if Szeth had already had a major part of his character’s climax during the Nale fight then it makes a lot more sense that what Kaladin is doing is going to be the focus. Also the fact that Ishar has already been set up as Kaladin’s goal for this book. - LadyLameness

[@chrisbammer4946]

I thought Szeths past was downplayed a bit in the earlier books. The whole time Im thinking he's exiled for blasphemy or heresy and in reality it's more like he tried to do a civil war, I think it could have been foreshadowed better

[@fakjbf3129]

A big thing of the Stormlight Archive has been that you cannot do things alone. Kaladin puts the fate of everyone around him on his shoulders and it breaks him. Dalinar barrels through people to take power because he doesn't trust anyone else to wield it well. Adolin throws himself into danger because he sees it as his duty as a leader. Shallan doesn't let people in for fear of hurting them. Jasnah believes she knows best and the people around her are incompetent. Renarin has trouble understanding and being understood by others. Rlain is discriminated against by humans and naturally doesn't trust them. Venli ignore the sotries of her ancestors because she wants to be seen as a savior. The Heralds put themselves through hell to protect the planet and it drove them mad. It is through the cooperation of spren and people that Radiant powers are granted. It was absolute poetry to zoom out and stop making the fight over Roshar just be contained to Roshar but instead draw the other Shards in to finally end the cycle once and for all.

[@JessietheSleepyKoala]

This is such a good way of looking at it. I was trying to put my finger on it during my read about why this book felt so different to WoR or OB (even when they’re split up they’re not alone!) and I think you hit the nail on the head. - LadyLameness

[@17thShard]

I absolutely agree, the theme work in this book is 10/10. Thanks for your writeup! -Eric

[@timotea7109]

Cultivation is master class genius. Maybe giving her too much credit but - SPOILERS - that quote from RoW about Todium being groomed to hold his shard “with honor”, the whole thing with lift being given the boon to “not change” recontextualized in a world that has no stormlight she can still produce her own powers. The whole set up with nightblood kinda working out for the best. She looks away from Todium and that lets him save his family which later plays into his hypocrisy at the end. And last thing - her shard has wanted off Roshar / the contract forever and she pushed Dalinar to seek the histories which ultimately led to the situation where she can leave!!! Idk imo she got everything she wanted Edit: Ok just reread chapter 142 and guys first cultivation urges dalinar to say the words I understand you and then the whole plan he comes up with is to seed the idea of honor growing the understanding of its intent…. I really don’t see how this is anything other than her entire plan

[@JediBlueDog]

Wait…you’re right. There’s no way she did all of this accidentally, especially the Lift thing. And Honor spends a lot of time talking about how she loves to play from the shadows and yet her Kharbranth move is anything but subtle. It’s actually quite flagrant, unless it was a plan within a plan.

[@timotea7109]

@@JediBlueDoglots of chatter about her being a huge failure this book but idk that’s too easy… she’s been shown to be nothing but crafty

[@pretty5793]

I agree she is playing 4D chess. Not for us mortals to understand.

[@Boogalyhu]

I think she also set Taravangian up to have that Achilles heel of Kharbranth in the Spiritual Realm. She definitely knew he would sequester it like that.

[@triskalion9627]

Nah, you are giving her too much credit, she didn't help honor, she was trying to be sneaky, but she failed, every plan and plan B she made has failed. And she fled Roshae with the tail between her legs. I don't like cultivation at all, all she did was try to lecture both Honor and Odium, never picking a side, never making a decision. The only good thing from her was sheltering Dalinar from the truth until he was ready for it

[@gravitysloths5127]

To be fair with the contract, Dalinar wanted to add specifics when they were planning it but Rayse said he didn't care for specifics and would honor the spirit of the contract. Taravangian absolutely cares about specifics and will use any loophole.

[@thermophile1695]

And I believe Wit said that trusting Rayse on that front was valid, not sure about that though.

[@Boogalyhu]

It was my favorite Stormlight book personally. Not surprised it divisive, but I’m a bit surprised the cast here mostly ranks it towards the bottom of the series. I think it’s the strongest one thematically as well as the most unique and experimental Stormlight book. Never read another book like this one.

[@17thShard]

I do agree the theme work is incredibly strong here and I think even casters who liked it less would agree with that. -Eric

[@lift_4_pancakes339]

In my opinion Szeth Kaladin Adolin and the first half of Shallan is peek... the spiritual realm stuff got tiresom and just felt dragged out... oh also! Honor and Odium chapters were amazing... the most vocal moment I had other than Kal almost dying and the spoon incident was moash basically becoming an inquisitor... oh also special mention for the Rysn and Axi interludes

[@mariamornerud9431]

I also liked it a lot, and place it among the top Stormlight books. Really good tempo throughout the book! All storylines interesting and with high stakes. Also sorry to year 17th Shared didn't like it that much.

[@fakjbf3129]

I loved the themes and many of the individual moments and the final conclusion, but the structure holding those scenes together to get us to the end just felt weak. It's just so different from the first three books that it's hard to really compare them directly. Also there were some really weak scenes that I don't know why they were included at all, like Kaladin not knowing what a library is.

[@JessietheSleepyKoala]

It’s really nice to hear that this is some people’s favourite ❤️ - LadyLameness

[@lanfear6254]

I feel so empty not waiting for a specific Cosmere project right now, so thank you for the gift of two additional days of hype!

[@stone7858]

Emberdark!

[@austinkoble]

Brandon is about to write Mistborn era 3 and Elantris sequels in tandem so there’s plenty to look forward to. This is confirmed. Not rumors.

[@chrisbammer4946]

Nightblood!

[@1talnfan797]

That guy in the tan shirt is very handsome and has some great opinions.

[@pretty5793]

Respect to Taln Fans. I thought he broke because of how he spoke in WoR. I wish there was a Taln Novella now. He never broke!!!

[@omniboy-prime]

Bro I don't know if you guys comment on this later on the podcast, I still have another half left. But I think you missed that Taln is native from roshar, he is not from ashyn, that is why he didn't broke

[@omniboy-prime]

When they try to convince him of becoming a herald he implies being from the newest generations and one of his family was actually who came from ashyn

[@JorgeMorge]

@@omniboy-prime it was his grandmother I believe. I wouldn’t say him being native to roshar was a specific reason for him not breaking though, it just seems to be a direct result of his strong character.

[@omniboy-prime]

​@@JorgeMorge yes yes I think you are right. I Guess for me this is one of the Things that completes his charachter. He has real Intent in protecting Roshar.

[@kgaster25]

At the end when Kaladin is talking to Kalak he uses the same line that Syl used on him when he stood over the honor chasm in book 1. "What harm is there in trying one more time if everything is already doomed." Loved how it came full circle.

[@Zaineph100]

When Adolin was thinking his leg injury was temporary until he could get back to Urithiru i immediately knew that he wasn't going to die anymore and that there wouldn't be any way for him to actually heal his leg. Didn't quite see there being no more Stormlight.

[@dry009]

27:40 "Honor is dead... but YA BOI AIN'T!"

[@cloyd1234]

I feel as if I am the only person that thought that the Jasnah - Taravangian debate was peak aspect of the book

[@reillyliner]

Finale books bring out lots of emotions. I’ve been surprised at the negativity. It was a very good book.

[@DarkChaos1986]

Most people is complaining about the argument without giving importance to the context. Personally I found the Jasnah plot very expected, Jasnah has been inconsistent with her thoughs since her introduction, and Varto took full advantage over that. People really idealized Jasnah prior to this book, and seeing Odium defeat her was contradictory to some people.

[@17thShard]

This is genuinely really good to hear - I know I’m one of the strong negative opinions about the storyline on the podcast, but it is always my hope that it works for someone. It would be a shame for something to fall entirely flat so it’s great to know it didn’t for you. Thanks for sharing, it’s nice to see someone who feels positively about it. - LadyLameness

[@cloyd1234]

@@17thShard All good of course! I think it is my degrees background about politics that excited me :D

[@undbiter65]

​@@reillyliner the writing quality went down a lot. Prose has never been Sandersons strong suit. So a dip in quality is very noticeable. I hope 10 year break allows for a return to form from Sanderson

[@ForgetableOne]

Personally the Shinovar plot line just hit for more, partly because it had my #1 and #2 favorite characters on a journey, but something only tangentially related. The absolute venom that flows through the one epigtaph where Szeth's wife talks about Ishar thinking he needed to humble Szeth was so nice to see. After this Szeth is going to find someone who cares enough about him to hate Ishar and I think thats wonderful

[@romegypt5675]

Something that I think people are really misunderstanding about the Jasnah scene is not that she doesn't understand utilitarianism, she actually shows complete understanding of utilitarianism. It's a very simple, stupid ideology, what she realizes is that she hasn't thought too deeply about how she has not been living utilitarianism, and THAT is what loses her the argument. Because Taravangian argues that she does not live as she claims, since she is not utilitarian when it comes to her family, and that she has a major hypocrisy. This hypocrisy is what loses her the argument, not her "Debating skills". Remember, Taravangian doesn't win by destroying her philosophy, he wins by destroying her character, because across the series her character has been inconsistent when it comes to her moral philosophy. Jasnah has NOT always sought what is most good for most people - she could've had elohkar assassinated, and that would've been better for far more people than letting him live, but she didn't because she loves her family. Utilitarianism is very stupid, it's not a good ideology, and Jasnah being forced to think about it more deeply in the context of how she LIVES her philosophy is the problem, not that she doesn't really understand it.

[@williamkline7922]

I definitely like your assessment. Taravangien has always been an insecure man wanting to be capable in defiance of what his doctors said at his birth. In defense of jasnah she never acted to increase her power but to protect her family. At worst you can claim she’s a brutal person but not self inflating. I see Jasnahs biggest flaw is ignoring the legitimacy of human emotionality, see her argument about hope. She didn’t understand fenn and was deeply humbled by todium who demonstrated that the human connection she’s never understood is a component of the human animal she needs to understand.

[@elekbuday81]

Yeah, Jasnah literally says that she lost because Taravangian was attacking her trustworthiness directly

[@LilaKarom]

There are many versions of utilitarianism and not all of them are stupid or simple, but otherwise you are right.

[@williamkline7922]

@ that’s one of the things that bothered me about the debate off. The only reason they are in the position they’re in is because todium used a loophole to threaten and cajole Fenn into compliance. Jasnah could just as easily lose but dear lord I wanted to scream at the characters to remember a contract alone with Todium guarantees very little.

[@Valiguss]

Youre correct about the debate, but 1. All ethical philosophies are simple (if they are any good) because they must be argued from simple first principles. Simplicity is actually a virtue because it reduces the number of first principles necessary and therefore makes your argument stronger. 2. It’s not stupid, because none of the others hold up to sufficient scrutiny. Virtue ethics is almost entirely incapable of explaining what you actually should do at any given time. Deontology/ rights based is full of a number of very difficult assertions (like the killing/let die distinction) that make zero sense and is almost inoperable at its logical extreme on the political level. 3. Everyone is a utilitarian in the end (not actually true, but most are), most people justify their ethical positions on the basis of what the outcomes achieved will be, if you are looking at a system of utilitarianism that consistently produces bad outcomes, than utilitarians would reject it. Alternatively you just have done your math wrong. The true problem with utilitarianism is simply that interpersonal utility comparisons may be impossible. Anyway I study ethics so I can discuss this all day, and dump a whole paper on your but that’s why I’d say you’re wrong

[@csummer3594]

honestly the best part of any sanderson release is 17th shard podcast releases

[@itamarbrickner626]

So will Kal become Shallan's new stepdad?

[@sashacampbell3513]

That would be extremely funny

[@Witless-Pawn]

How dare you ruin my kal+syl coupling.

[@mrlaw2729]

Why? How? Oh because he might marry shallan's mother? 😂

[@Disti23]

That would be hilarious to read. Rather awkward but hey if it’s what Chana needs/wants that’s up to her.

[@undbiter65]

Lmaooo

[@pendrakedcm]

Ok am I the only one who was reminded of Sigzil claiming to be one of the “unoathed” to the scientists on Canticle

[@haldalas]

Oh no way Maybe that just becomes a common term for shardbearer without radiant powers

[@pendrakedcm]

Could be! But it makes that scene a little more interesting for sure

[@dustinbridges6831]

I was questioning that because i thought lt was a huge spoiler, but everyone ignored it.

[@Daimondz1239]

Am I misremembering? Isn’t Aux a deadeye in Sunlit Man? So it makes sense that the Sigzil would be “unoathed”

[@dustinbridges6831]

@ you are right. because he abandoned his oaths. And if I remember correctly, the reason he still has powers has to do with the Dawn shard. But the new book didn’t really go into that too much.

[@guitoscano]

I though the ending was a very brave thing to do, and also amazing. It safeguards some of our favorite characters to come up in part 2 in a totally different status quo, new challenges and stuff. I'm excited, even though we have a looooooooong wait ahead lol

[@youngbr1120]

Much like he did with Mistborn era 2 referencing the “gods” of era 1, I expect some of our favorite characters to be so revered in the second half of The archives.

[@robertdebroeck8291]

I fully agree that syl is the heir to the storm father. I think this means that kal in addition to being a wind runner of his new ideal is going to become a bondsmith as heir to dalinar

[@robertdebroeck8291]

@@jasonbrewbaker3932 Ishar's status as Bondsmith is separate from Radiant Oaths. Kaladin is now the Windrunner Herald, while also being a Windrunner Radiant. I meant that I think Kaladin will further his bond with Syl by swearing Bondsmith ideals with her as Stormfather's Heir. His work as a therapist would blend protecting and uniting pretty well I think

[@larryhayes5579]

I could see Kal getting access to tension as a third surge. Still a "Windrunner" just another radiant that breaks the rules because their spren is different.

[@Bbenkosky]

But do they, together bring back stormlight?

[@robertdebroeck8291]

@@jasonbrewbaker3932 but doesn’t ash joining the dust bringers work against that argument? The dust bringer book is scheduled to be ash’s book if I recall correctly. I agree it’s weird the night watcher was not bonded yet and hope we’ll see her and her bondsmith in the back 5

[@robertdebroeck8291]

@@Bbenkosky maybe because so much of honor was invested in the Harolds, the wind the night, and the stones will be able to re-create storm light using honors tone the way Navani did for the sibling, but on a larger scale

[@HannahTullos-cp8jp]

I’m surprised at the large amount of negativity. I enjoyed the book overall- and really appreciated the amount of “journey” for each character arc. Wind and truth overall is probably my third favorite of Stormlight archive.

[@Axartsme]

aaaaaaa hype. can't wait to hear Eric talk about BAM for 4 hours

[@17thShard]

Well not four hours, but I do have a BAM rant in here! -Eric

[@deadcaptainjames6045]

​@17thShard i hope so she didn't really do anything lol. Can't wait to hear you rant

[@pretty5793]

@@17thShardI am here for Eric’s BAM rant…when nothing Epic happened after she was released I could hear Eric freak out in my head…😂…3 years of hearing Eric talk about BAM does that to us…😂

[@jjoorro]

​@@17thShard the whelm of BAM's release was painfully under 😭

[@trolledchaos6531]

YES, THIS. Eric has been waiting for this moment for literal years and I, for one, cannot wait to see him gloat.

[@pendrakedcm]

It seems like everyone is forgetting that among the heralds is Battar, who may create problems with the Oathpact

[@17thShard]

Yeah, I was actually thinking about this recently (after recording) that that loop never got closed. I wonder what's up with that. - Eric

[@govirdrauka7116]

Is Battar Dova?

[@pendrakedcm]

@ check out interlude 6

[@imbored5951]

I don't know how to articulate it yet, but Battar being a traitor to the Heralds and working for Retribution really bothers me. It feels like that's where this is going and I really don't like it.

[@MrKyuuren]

​@@govirdrauka7116 yep

[@nicksarver2892]

Dalinar united the other shards against odium

[@TheMereth]

why assume Stormlight is gone forever? Retribution now produces Warlight Warlight is a mix of Voidlight and Stormlight mix Warlight with anti-Voidlight and boom - you get Stormlight you’re welcome

[@MrKyuuren]

It's a good job Navani is safely in Urithiru, when she's back in play I could easily imagine her working on that project

[@xintrosi6829]

This was my assumption as well. Or even just drive it out of the shared light with the anti-voidlight tone. Splitting the powers of a merged shard already has precedence in the Cosmere too.

[@Halrax_38]

This comment reads like those memes Oil floats on water Cover self in oil Wait for rain Fly I know this is better thought out than that, but I don’t know if the solution is that simple. And even if it is Anti-voidlight will be a lot rarer than Stormlight was.

[@Freyas01]

Though, getting a consistent supply of warlight seems like it might be a challenge, since spheres don't automatically get filled by periodic storms, the listeners have to pray to Retribution at a specific time in order to get warlight-infused spheres. If they start selling tons of warlight to Azir/Urithiru, it seems like Taravangian would probably catch on and cut them off.

[@anmingtou256]

How you getting antivoidlight though

[@ctom42]

I find it very strange that the complaint was that Kaladin overshadowed Szeth in the Shinovar plotline. My issue was that Kaladin didn't have enough to do for most of it. Like sure there was a way that the Nale fight could have had both of them fight, but the same is true for literally every other fight where Kaladin does nothing. Kaladin didn't participate in any of the other fights, save his role in the ending one which was basically to take Ishar out of the equation and then act as a battery for Nightblood. The man swore his 5th ideal and then just has to stand there and watch Szeth Solo 6 Honorbearers. I get that Kaladin's main role was to be a therapist but I still feel he needed to be more actively involved in the actual mission there.

[@christianrapper5]

I don’t understand how they said that Adolin’s plot doesn’t focus on spren, action, and stormlight. Maya and the dead eye spren are a major part of his arc. He was constantly fighting battles also. He didn’t just play Magic the Gathering.

[@17thShard]

More meaning that it feels much less like the high magic battles we have had for OB and RoW. The deadeye spren are key, but the combat made it feel to me a lot more Way of Kings style, which I really liked. -Eric

[@Disti23]

Adolin's arc I feel was second only to Kaladin and Szeth. But Adolin is my favorite character though.

[@Witless-Pawn]

Maya was MIA the majority of his arc. Literally only having an effect at the very end. He was just a soldier holding the line most the time

[@christianrapper5]

@ she wasn’t mia for most of his arc. She was able to communicate with him like a bonded radiant spren during their fights. She was with him for a good part of the book. She just conveniently disappeared when he could have used her. Also, Maya wouldn’t have been able to get those dead spren without Adolin. Adolin literally got saved by assumed dead shard plates and became the leader of unoathed shard bearers.

[@curtiswfranks]

Navani is awesome as a scientist and Bondsmith, but I also appreciated her motherly/nurturing instincts toward Gav - especially saving him when she had the chance, even at the expense of leaving Dalinar and thus perhaps the salvation of the world behind. And then Dalinar was like "Yeah, that is exactly what you should have done". ❤️

[@Tephr1te]

If the stormfather is Honour's version of the original Wind spren, the Nightwatcher is Cultivation's version of the Night spren, could Ba-Ado-Mishram be Odium's version of the Stone spren, about how the Dawnsingers were stoneward-esque shapers of the stone, it makes sense that the modern version of the spren is a spren of the Singers.

[@patrickwycoff9382]

im pretty sure the stone spren was the sibling cuz of like urithiru and stuff

[@brennahyzy7635]

As much as I know recording and editing is a huge effort for our beloved shardcasters, MAN do I love 4 hours of content

[@17thShard]

I'm glad you enjoyed! Thanks for the kind words. -Eric

[@RaptieFeathers]

Nightblood is now my favorite character in the cosmere, and has done so much character growth since her introduction. She's now one of the most powerful beings in the cosmere, if not _the_ outright. And her self-actualization and learning self-control has so many implications. I love how Nightblood's journey mirrored Szeth's and Kaladins

[@gave1797]

Is nightblood confirmed male / female? Just wondering not trying to sound rude.

[@Masonw89]

​@gave1797 Depends on who is talking to nightblood. Nightblood doesn't have a gender, but people like szeth, kaladin, vasher hear noghtblood with a male voice but lift hears the voice as female.

[@lilyeves892]

​@@gave1797 nightblood gender is to destroy evil

[@danlupo4665]

Ok my take on the Jasnah/Wit relationship was that it was a piece of setting up a growth arc for Wit in the future - He's been basically omniscient and faultless until the latter half of RoW, and I felt a big part of his arc in WaT was him finally realizing/admitting that he's overly self-reliant and how that was a part of his downfall - could it have been done better?? ya for sure - but I felt like it did at least have some purpose

[@boolemay2058]

I felt ROBBED at missing Taln. Also, robbed not seeing Szeth bond all the honorblades along the way and using all the surges switching blades in a final fight.

[@teagannakamoto9688]

Hoping for a Taln short, maybe in future story decks!

[@Morfeusm]

Ash should have her own book. I think Brandon is saving Taln for that.

[@rantalmore]

Very surprised to hear such negativity from y’all! It may have been my 2nd fav cosmere book ever, 1st being oathbringer

[@JoséRVFlores]

Yeah, I was so excited that I finished the book, started this instantly and then had to stop watching. Will come back later

[@lily-_-]

For me it's third after Oathbringer and Words of Radiance, but I still thought it was really great. Could've been better for sure, but none of the biggest plot lines fell flat for me. Very good overall.

[@christianrapper5]

@@rantalmore everyone likes different things

[@rantalmore]

@@christianrapper5 thanks for that genius observation Christian

[@christianrapper5]

@@rantalmore thanks for the snarky reply Rant

[@lift_4_pancakes339]

Lets not lie the best paet was finding out Sigs spren was the spren that gave Truthleas a spoon in a battle to the death lol

[@AvalenciaAva]

I read the book in 3 days, took vacations days to do it. I enjoy the journey with the community and the amazing amount of media about Stormlight in general (videos, music, art) and is great. I love the series and continue the journey until the destination. Grettings from Mexico.

[@17thShard]

Greetings! Thanks for coming. -Eric

[@nd4159]

As someone who has not read Sunlit Man yet, I thoroughly enjoyed Sigzil's plot in Wind and Truth. I'm curious to see how my opinion is affected, but in general I think Sig has a really interesting emotional arc carrying him forward, especially considering the abruptness with which he's forced to abandon his life and hop into the Cosmere. Also, for me personally, his renunciation of his oaths was the best moment of the three in the book because it was on a smaller, personal scale (the life of his spren). Dalinar's was still brilliant. Szeth's was good for his character growth, but I think his renunciation just undercuts swearing the Fifth Ideal. I think it would have been just as--if not more--true to Szeth's growth if he said screw the Fourth and Fifth Ideals and renounced sometime before the Ishar confrontation. "I. AM. THE LAW!!" just did not hit for me, although it still was kinda cool. (Sorry that the second half of this comment has swiftly turned to Szeth lol) but I think if Sanderson wanted to have Szeth swear the Fifth Ideal, it would have been more interesting if he kept 12124 and convinced him to become a rogue Skybreaker spren, because that's literally the path he was on anyway. But it does feel like something the story could circle back to since highspren (supposedly) are not subject to same exact repercussions of renouncing oaths. Love the podcast!!

[@LilFlame2001]

Now I only just finished the book, but I think this is my favorite Cosmere book ever. No other book has made me feel so much, so consistently. A truly astounding experience.

[@Valiguss]

The great irony of this book for me is that the two staunch utilitarians show their commitment to their philosophy to be hollow, while dalinar the person who has argued so fiercely against it in the end, stands up does exactly what is required of him, he sacrifices Roshar to save the cosmere, doesn’t get more utilitarian than that.

[@TheGamerprod]

I wonder now if the reference in Tress to death with spikes through his eyes is Marsh or Moash. We've now got two spiked superpowered individuals used by their twin investiture gods. Could lead to some fun stuff

[@jonyang6420]

Did anyone catch that Dalinar was claimed by another when Teravangian was trying to keep his soul for torture?

[@gravitysloths5127]

I think Cultivation claimed him. We learned this book she's a dragon. Later on we get Wit using a dragon bone and figures out dalinars plan. I think he's chilling wherever dragon souls go now.

[@Morfeusm]

@@gravitysloths5127agreed

[@scarsymphony514]

I want to throw out the possibility that in mistborn era 2 they say there's like a universal symbol of death with spiked eyes and we assume it is marsh but what if it's an active moash released into the greater cosmere

[@JessietheSleepyKoala]

Someone else in the comments mentioned that there's something in Tress as well (I think). Personally I think it's Marsh because I think we would have gotten more of a weird description about the spikes if it was Moash and also because he is the entity known as Death now, but it is cool that there's now the possibility for it to be someone else! - LadyLameness

[@ziawrsps6881]

I was a psycho who got the book Friday afternoon and finished it Sunday morning. Literally all night Saturday spent reading. Interested in your thoughts

[@JediBlueDog]

Oh my god same dude. I started reading at 4pm Friday, fell asleep 2am Saturday, woke up 10am Saturday, and read until 6am Sunday.

[@thekwjiboo]

Szeth's spren saying his name is 12124 was one of the most clever instances of foreshadowing ive ever seen.

[@SamBucek]

I know you understood writing this comment, but for those that didn’t catch it 1=A,21=U,24=X so 12124 = AUX

[@fhengal]

@@SamBucek Whoa! Thanks for pointing that out to those of us who didn't know.

[@zacharyhall1274]

@@SamBucekSorry if I am missing something, why is AUX significant?

[@SamBucek]

@@zacharyhall1274 it’s the name of the Spren ln sunlit man

[@17thShard]

I figured this out through other clues but was pretty blown away when I found this out! -LadyLameness

[@akashpathak1566]

This is my favourite book now. It had heroes journey, ticking clock, subverted expectation chekhovs gun and. All other writing principles. It did have some downers and weeknesses, but overall it matches the hight if mistborn finale.

[@charlestruppi7793]

Totally agree.

[@Morfeusm]

Yes I would almost agree. But still would love next printing of this book to be re-edited by different editing team and more of the beta reader concerns fixed. If I close my eyes on that then I can agree with you.

[@govirdrauka7116]

Something I don’t think was mentioned about Taln, is that he didn’t actually break. It was Chana, after Shallan “killed” her when she was young.

[@17thShard]

Yeah, indeed, we honestly went so surface level here so there was tons we didn't get to say. -Eric

[@slipping4415]

I sort of assumed they didn’t mention Taln not breaking because we already got that in a WoB, which is part of why Chana Davar was such a prominent theory to begin with

[@govirdrauka7116]

@slipping4415Ahh, I didn’t know we had a WoB about it. I’ve really dropped off keeping up with those. I just dipped my toes back into the podcast to see reactions and connections I may have missed.

[@thekwjiboo]

This whole mess is almost entirely Cultivation's fault. She should be saddled with most of the blame for the situation Roshar is in. She should be considered at least as much of a cosmere-wide villain as Retribution. I see some comments on here saying she's playing 4D chess and this is all still somehow going according to her master plan...bullsh*t. She tried to play her little game and she messed everything up then ran away.

[@thermophile1695]

Literally all she had to do was NOT make Teravangian suitable for Odium. Rayse gets killed with Nightblood, she splinters the shard, problem solved. But she wanted to manipulate a new inexperienced Odium, and she was too egotistical to realize that she picked someone who would see through all of her manipulations and was willing to do what it took to fulfill his goals.

[@ericdculver]

Ghostbloods wanted Mishram as leverage against Odium. Mraize tells Shallan during one of their fights in the Spiritual Realm. If the Ghostbloods had something which could scare a god, they could get that god to do things for them, they figured.

[@1AmGroot]

Haven't watched the entire video, but I just want to ask this: What happens to Lift? All the other radiants are Connected to Honor, who is somehow still there inside of Retribution, and the Heralds somehow protected Honor's spren. But Wyndle is a Cultivationspren, and Lift is Connected to Cultivation and uses her Light. So what happens to her when Cultivation leaves the Rosharan system entirely, running away?

[@17thShard]

I feel like Lift should be fine? But it is a weird situation. -Eric

[@fenris5932]

Some thoughts in no particular order: Worthless goddamn lizard goddess If Taln isn't your favorite Herald (or character straight up) after this, you need to re-evaluate your life This plot of this book can be summarized with "Tragic: worst person you know makes good point" Yknow guys, maybe killing God wasnt the best idea Brandon has accidentally crossed a wire in my brain with the whole "Knights of Wind and Truth" thing because man does Crush 40's "Knight of the Wind" hit differently for me now. edit: OH NO, "LIVE & LEARN" KINDA FITS WITH DALINAR TOO, OH NO

[@thermophile1695]

1. Maya 2. Adolin 3. Taln

[@Morfeusm]

Of course Kaladin is my favorite herald 😂

[@legendsofabhaile]

to Jess's point about Mishram, I think Odium was attracted to her for a different reason than purely intent. When Tanavast arrived on Roshar there were 3 Spren of Adonalsium. Wind, Night and perhaps Stone. I have a feeling that Mishram was what happened when Night was unmade in Odium's pool, in which - yeah, Odium as a shard would be intrinsically pulled to a fraction of what it once was.

[@legendsofabhaile]

Again reinforced by Adonalsiumium being the core of Braize, attracting investiture before shards settled there, because the investiture is pulled to what created it.

[@mrlaw2729]

Night is the nightwatcher though right?

[@simonorourke4465]

​@@mrlaw2729No they clarify earlier in the hbook that the nightwatcher has assumed the place of the Night but she were created by Cultivation after she and Honour arrived along with the Stormfather and the Sibling.

[@Honer_300]

I think for the wiki, you might be able to split it into “Everstorm” and “Night if sorrows/true desolation” Also what we were calling the “true desolation” might be able to be called “the last return” although i realize that that’s quite similar to the “last desolation”/aharietiam

[@nroke1684]

true Desolation vs True Desolation.

[@Pickchea]

So many death rattles getting resolved was fun

[@Pr0teus14420]

Yeah, just finished the book. The implications of this book for the comers are huge, so I can’t wait to hear your guy’s thoughts on this absolute banger.

[@tadious9415]

With Sigzil I liked a lot of that arc, but I agree with David that it didn't quite land with how I was picturing it after Sunlit Man. He was scared of leadership seemingly because of mistakes. I kind of wish Sigzil had made some mistakes. The other issue is we didn't really know many of the dead. I am not sure we knew any of them other than Leyton and he's not a super main character. So the losses of radiants didn't seem as big to us as they likely would've for him. I think him being blinded by hatred of Moash or planning an ambush of Moash would've been the way to go. He plans this ambush and it wasn't just Leyton being caught out. Then the fabrial activates then Leyton and a bunch of squires die as a result and they gain nothing from it and that wrecks his confidence as they pull out. Something where it was a real mistake not just a desperate situation. Especially since he's carrying this trauma 100+ years later! Also the Stormwall is a great title for a radiant I hope we get more of him as he seems cool but we know so little about him as a character. I did like though someone really using the death rattles to choose another path. That was cool! And I was expecting for a while that we'd get a relevant death rattle from an established character dying. And Leyton was about the minimum level of a character for that I expected. I was expecting it from someone bigger, but we did get that and I liked that.

[@kgaster25]

"Itd he so exhausting to get a character arc after 7000 years" 🤣🤣 TRUE

[@dominicpizano887]

Excited to see the Syladin converts! Those who do not convert are TRUTHLESS

[@deadcaptainjames6045]

Everyone just needs to get on the Syladin train at this point. It's definitely the direction he is heading and it's being done very tastefully so I'm happy

[@thesnuggler5941]

What about Chana stormblessed b

[@dominicpizano887]

@@thesnuggler5941 You are TRUTHLESS

[@benarkos539]

​@@thesnuggler5941That'd be crazy

[@Axel-tk3tk]

Where do we get chana stormblessed? Curious, I've only seen the ship on this. It is just so he finally gets his Shallan? ​@@thesnuggler5941

[@carl11547]

For the record, I realized that Braize and Mraize were named after Rayse three books ago, Will. I even posted about it here in KZbin comments.

[@Kaladin.io.]

Not to go into specifics for the book, the feeling that I got once I finished, I just feel so serene (not sure if is the right word), but I just feel calm and a sense that I witnessed something. I really enjoyed a not perfect book. Journey before destination ganchos

[@Sweets674]

Great discussion, thanks for taking the time to make and edit the video! Always look forward to hearing your opinions

[@andrewking9439]

I wonder if Chana will find out Kaladin killed Herlaran, and what will the implications be.

[@JessietheSleepyKoala]

Finally, we might get some sort of scene that explores the ramifications of Helaran’s death. Though if he’s Lin’s bastard then she might care less. - LadyLameness

[@myself2noone]

I guess the name of the finale Shard dose explain why so many of the other Shards come across as so unreasonable.

[@JessietheSleepyKoala]

Just wanted to mention that I had my laptop off to the side and had to check the notes a number of times - because I have a weird setup that isn’t at a computer, it means I sometimes need to look away from the camera to get information. Just in case anyone is wondering what I’m doing at certain points where I’m looking offscreen. 😊 - LadyLameness

[@MrHulaine]

I'm only 30 mins into this (finished the book), but on the Voidlight archive/Warlight archive but, i didn't even think Stormlight was gone forever, I just expect it to come back somehow, even if it's not till like book 8 or 9 or something No idea how, but I'm surprised it wasn't even mentioned as a possibility Edit - re the discussion on Adolins leg, he can 100% get it back as long as he doesn't internalise it - Lift still has full stormlight access thanks to Cultivation, and IIRC stormlight (well, lifelight) works in Urithiru still if he can get there Edit 2: if Shallan leaves the Rosharan system, cus of the time dilation, we could get adult Shallan kid early on the back half

[@xintrosi6829]

It's too bad Navani is in carbonite because I would love to see if she could perform an experiment to separate tower light into stormlight and life light or if she could split warlight into stormlight and voidlight. I imagine it has to do with trying to use the anti-light sound for the light you want to repel but some additional steps because of course it's not that easy. The Last Metal spoilers: This is similar to what they're doing on Scadriel; taking Harmonium and splitting it into lerasium and atium. So the concept of splitting the powers of a merged shard does have precedence in the Cosmere.

[@silverstar4505]

@@MrHulaine Adolin is mentally healthy, there's 0% he doesn't internalize for 10 years when the way he survived against Abidi was to count for the ways the prosthetic was working

[@Thalagos]

Regarding the sentiment of "no more stormlight," didn't Navani figure out how to separate the combined lights in RoW using tones and whatnot? I'd have to go back and reread that, but there are three other things I think contribute to seeing natural storm light investiture come back again in the back half: *contains Spoilers*: 1) that some pieces of honor split off from the main shard near the end; 2) with Ba-Ado-Mishram back, how permanent is what happened to the Stormfather? I don't think it said his investiture was absorbed and I'm pretty sure Taravangian didn't use anti-light, so maybe we will see another spren take up his power that reforms at some point, maybe in combination with point 1 above; and 3) the seed of discontent Dalinar planted in the burgeoning conscious of Honor. I suspect that something will happen with Honor in book 6/7 and the heralds will return in the back half when Ba-Ado-Mishram, being linked to the spren of Roshar, makes a move against a cosmere distracted Taravangian.

[@timotea7109]

Sorry I’m always here for Shallan scenes. Her humor can be whatever but love her 😭

[@17thShard]

Sorry we didn't get a chance to talk about her too much here, there was so much! Reacts 2 will have more and I imagine we will have a Shallan episode. -Eric

[@thekwjiboo]

The symbolism of Taln being stabbed by 11 spears has to be recognized. He was metaphorically stabbed by the other 9 heralds, Tanavast, and Honor. 11 betrayals, 11 spears.

[@corwin01]

I just find it hilarious the disrespect Rayse shows Tanavast calling him Tanner... And that he eventually starts calling himself Tanner. Lol

[@Str1fe5]

I liked this book quite a bit more than the non-Chaos folks. I agree the pacing was pretty good, although there were some clunky transitions to help keep that pace. I definitely liked it better than Rhythm of War, but I agree on first impression it’s not as good as Words of Radiance or Oathbringer. I need more to think about how I evaluate it compared to Way of Kings. I like it better than any non-Stormlight book except for Hero of Ages and maybe Tress.

[@undbiter65]

I completely agree with the general consensus of it felt rush and writing was weaker than Sandersons normal standards

[@BykeMurns]

I'm basically with Eric on the positivity scale. I loved this book, the Jasnah debate was just kinda eh, like okay, sure. While the plotting in the Spiritual Realm was cool, I think I expected it to blow my mind more. Like when I first learned of Shadesmar, I was shooketh with how cool it was. I dunno what could've made the Spiritual Realm itself cooler, but navigating through the visions to put together some missing pieces of the lore I did find satisfying overall.

[@17thShard]

Matches my thoughts pretty well! -Eric

[@triskalion9627]

I feel sad for Jezerien man.... he just died? After leading the heralds for millenias, intiatimg the peace with the singers at the beginning before the war, and initiating the peace with Nale to form the first oatpact. Poor Jezerien

[@curtiswfranks]

Syladin: We know that there will be a time-skip on Roshar of several years or even a decade or more. We also know that years on Roshar is months to the Heralds. We will see natural development of this relationship from basically where we left it in this book without flashbacks.

[@oswinhull4203]

Tough crowd. I'm with you Eric. This book was awesome. Personally I thought it was maybe the best book yet. It is hard for me to put anything above WoK being the original and all. It seemed like something important was happening in every chapter. It flowed so well. It added more than any book to the lore. It had by far the biggest pay offs of any book. We have been building toward so many of these things over several books. I've been wanting to learn about the Heralds since book one. I've been wanting to see Kaladin overcome his depression for 4 books. Finally getting the big Shallan reveal. Dalinar takes up Honor. Nighblood gets to destroy evil. Szeth had the best flashback sequence. We get the night of sorrows. Odium is unleased on the greater cosmere. Taln fought back. Adolin does the awesome thing in all the books so far. We get the stormwall with the most epic entrance of a character in the story. What more can you ask for? How could you not like this book?

[@Morfeusm]

I liked the book too but recognize the flaws. Still probably 3rd best Stormlight for me. Could have been better with superior editor team.

[@storeybook2727]

As a Kaladin stan I have to say his arc in this book was absolutely perfect to me (even though Syladin was not on my bingo card) and the dancing scene actually made me tear up. The Herald arc also is surprisingly very exciting to me because there is so much room for character crunchiness, especially with Chana and Kaladin. I’m also really hoping for a Kaladin and Taln friendship to develop in back half!! (Is there going to be a Kaladin episode? Just curious) Overall LOVED the book and the themes, though it seems i’m the only person who enjoyed Sigzils arc

[@Masonw89]

You guys are amazing and i love the time you put into these podcasts. I will say there was a definite lack of discussion about nightblood in this episode, can't wait for you guys to dive more into this character arc and potential for this insanely powerful entity.

[@17thShard]

We will for sure discuss this! Huge book, tons to discuss. -Eric

[@Flarker09]

I love that Ian brought his body double

[@MobBossBobRoss]

While I really enjoyed the Adolin character growth, I felt there was a bit much of it. It really did emphasize the struggle but I felt a bit like I was skimming parts of those sections. Same with some of the Shallan stuff near the end. I just cared about Odium vs Dalinar and Kaladin

[@chrispearce374]

💯

[@gravitysloths5127]

Cant wait for Warlight Archive after Ghostbloods.

[@Loomx5]

So I really enjoyed WaT. Its just below the first two for me I think ( a long way above RoW, which was elevated slightly by WaT but remains solidly my least favourite Stormlight book) So I was a little surprised after removing all my spoiler walls to discover that the general consensus was so mixed. Especially from the 17th shard crowd! This was my perfect mix of character, themes and deep lore payoff. Our main four (Adolin, Dalinar, Kaladin and Shallan) had in my opinion excellent arcs. An entire book of Kaladin being happy!! Of him continuing self improvement now he was no longer suicidal. Dalinar and the Stormfather fully reflecting and moving forward. Dalinar learning that he was too close to Tanavast, and that wasn't enough. And then the Sunmakers gambit! So good. Adolin becoming someone for himself. His justification of not liking the oaths and why he wasn't a radiant. And the way it was written had me so fucking scared that the whole setup was that he was Training Yanagawn to fight, and the emperor dying loses Azir so it would be his fault. Glad that didn't happen. Shallan is similar to Kaladin. A book of her having grown. Showing that growth. A bit weaker in terms of the actual plot than the other 3, but I still really enjoyed that. As a culmination of a 5 book arc about struggle and pain, it was good that our heroes showed that they could move beyond. Thematically it worked so well for me. Similarly to the lore dumps. Was it a little heavy handed? Sure. But I loved finally getting brought back to the themes and mysteries brought up in the first two books that Brandon sortof moved away from in Oathbringer and RoW as he got swept up in the individual character stories. That being said. I can see some of the criticisms that the writing itself, less than the ideas , arcs, and themes, may have been a bit sub par. I will allow that. But I got so much enjoyment out of this book. Solidly one of my upper tier Cosmere books.

[@JessietheSleepyKoala]

I'm glad you liked it! Definitely when I finished I thought it would be a divisive book, but I am really glad every time I come across someone who said they liked it. I know we complain about it, but knowing that Brandon made the book work for someone means it was a success in my opinion. - LadyLameness

[@Loomx5]

@@JessietheSleepyKoala I do agree with a lot of your criticisms. Especially of the Shinnovar arc, that the ordering of the flashbacks and the monastaries doesn't make a huge amount of sense, and that Jasnah's defeat seems a bit forced. And that there is a general sense of whilst things might have been good, they lacked a lot of the *punch* that it feels like they should have at the end of a book.

[@ayoubelalami8118]

The only downside to the new book is that sir Brandon sanderson keeps switching from one POV to another. My man Dalinar sacrificed himself, but because of the constant POV changes, the emotional impact didn't fully hit me until I finished the book and thought to myself, 'Oh no, Dalinar is really gone.' The writing, in my opinion, has also taken a slight dip in quality. I feel like the author doesn’t need a team of editors who agree with every idea he proposes. Some of the concepts in this book had the potential to make it a masterpiece if they had been executed flawlessly. While most were done well, some of the best ideas were left underdeveloped kind a cringe , which was disappointing||

[@coltenbarnaby]

Not sure if I should feel dumb, but I think I mostly feel grateful that the book was everything I wanted it to be, I loved it and was totally satisfied.

[@17thShard]

I'm glad you loved it, truly! -Eric

[@JessietheSleepyKoala]

Never feel dumb, especially for liking something. You liking the book means it met the basic expectation of what Brandon set out to do: having people enjoy the story. You're absolutely not dumb because of that. - LadyLameness

[@Morfeusm]

Nah, it’s simply good book with some frustrating minor flaws. Plus expectations were probably too high.

[@tadious9415]

With Shallan's child I think we will get a lot of those elements you were talking about. And I think it works better to skip ahead to a 10 year old since otherwise you only would get the new baby stuff. Which could be cool to get too but this allows you to actually have a child who can speak and have a personality. You kind of need a time jump to get the elements of Shallan established as a single mother. Shallan reuniting with Adolin and how they figure out parenting together afterwards. You also get a child who was raised in the cognitive realm which will be an interesting contrast to Gavinor who was raised in the spiritual realm. And we will get to see someone as a child experience the physical realm for the first time. And you get to see Pattern as a parent to a child who can interact back with him and have conversations. I think that will work really well in books 6 and 7 and I'm looking forward to it.

[@nathancole7624]

The thought that Sigzil won’t be in the second arc of Stormlight I think wrong because of the time dilation. What will feel like a long time to him will be short to people on Roshar. I very much see him going back to Roshar for second arc.

[@Ridgwaycer]

I would not be surprised if he appears in some form in MB Era 3.

[@taccophobia]

Thank you so much. Only after this stream am I excited to start reading wind and Truth.

[@diepie5144]

2:08 The thing about cleansing Shinovar is that literally everything after he kills the soldier (besides for, you know, the real societal thing of sorting the Shin into groups "bad" and "good") is contingent on Ishar being insane and trying to fulfill his plan of replacing Jezrien with Szeth and bring Radiant Spren into the Physical Realm to be his immortal army (Jesus Christ it's impressive that amounts to 2-3 throwaway lines in the book). Szeth rises up the ranks by listening to the voice, he becomes a Stone Shaman for that reason, the Stone Shamans are evil (and are influencing the Shin?) because Ishar turned them into Fused, and the greatest problem in Shinovar when he returns from being hardened in the east is Ishar. So the cleansing is about Ishar. Of course Szeth isn't going to bring around societal change during the book (maybe in the time jump?), he's more focused on doing the sanctioned quest that Ishar is DM'ng. I also think the gauntlet of BS boss battles helps forward the theme that "cleansing" can't change the systemic issues that causes most of societies problems. Sure, he can fix the problems caused by BBEG/DM Ishar being literally insane, morally bankrupt, and a minor deity, but the cycle of violence just keeps spinning.

[@diepie5144]

2:38 totally agree, there should have been more foreshadowing for the contact. Personally, I think in the Way of Kings, Sadeas should've been using the Sunmaker as a way of trying to influence Elhokar towards his POV (talking about his various exploits, perhaps giving a very biased biography of him to Elhokar for him to listen to), and one of the examples should have included the Sunmaker taking the seat of a rival King (who flees and sets up his court elsewher., and then convincing all the King's nobles to join his cause because he took the King's seat of power. This sets both the precedent that a King is in charge of his kingdom only until he loses his capital while at war, and that changing the capital doesn't count, since the King obviously did that as well. Then, in Oathbringer, Gavilar uses this precedent to subjugate one of the highprinces (I control your capital, your kingdom is forfeit, but you could become a highprince instead), which establishes that the Highprince's power flows through Gavilar, despite Gavilar not having to do anything. This also serves to characterize Gavilar as a shrewd politician, and how he's relying on the toxic legacy of the Sunmaker, giving weight to earlier arguments about the direction of the Kingdom. It also makes the loophole harder to dispute, Dalinar was there at the last time it was invoked, this isn't some archaic law that one of Nohadon's rivals put in the books and you could spend the entire length of the recorded Cosmere arguing over whether there's enough legal continuity for it to apply. But regardless, at the very least the incident that created the precedent should have been cited in that scene where Hoid is reading over the contract. Y'all were talking about how Jasnah barely understands philosophy (I think it's supposed to be a big character flaw that she represses her emotions, and insists that she is perfectly rational), and this is a very similar problem: precedents are set by decisions made regarding incidents in the past. Just take 2 sentences to explain the background of the incident, and what the decision was that set the precedent. Though, I really liked how it payed off, where the only place where the loophole was relevant was on the shattered plains, the only place where you couldn't dispute the authority of Alethi legal precedent. In Azir, control of the palace legally gave you control (in which case they did what I said to do with the loophole and *cited the incident*), and in Thaylenah the settlement was negotiated. And even there, control was ceded to the Listeners anyways. Like, it was kinda stupid, but it didn't actually matter, Taravangian's forces controlling all 10 Oathgates would've made the alliance untenable regardless of if they controlled the surrounding lands.

[@samuelencarnacion4573]

WaT has the lowest highs of the stormlight archive. Feels like when a tire spins on a wet road, at time you’ll get a burst of speed and then you slip again

[@randallwilson1971]

Ian’s reactions are spot on! Love that he’s back on! Can’t wait for reactions 2. I LOVE ALL YOU GUYS AND GALS

[@tyresw1381]

The book feels like there is an absolutely incredible finale hiding in its bones and a longer editing process would have helped it reach that level. I keep thinking about how many incredible things happened and the extremely good foreshadowing but honestly, the pacing of everything just took the punch out of a lot of reveals, meaning that you keep expecting pay off for things for hundreds of pages and once you finally do see something like the Unoathed or the Contest, you're just burnt out on expectations. Also, you can't just introduce a fourth moon and imply its going to be a whole plot point then just relegate it to the back five. I WANT TO KNOW ABOUT THAT MOON.

[@OliveDrabCrusader]

24:30 This first cycle isn't even really one five book series. It's a trilogy with 2 prequels. Think about the plot structure and realize I'm right.

[@TheCroBrosChannel]

I think of it like a trilogy and then a follow-up duology. The first three naturally go together and Oathbringer feels like solid end to the “first arc.” RoW & WaT feel distinct from those first three

[@Zudovader]

​@@TheCroBrosChanneland if anything I feel rhythm of war and wind and truth are the first and second half of one book. To me rhythm of war is better in hindsight with womd and truth to finish the set ups.

[@OliveDrabCrusader]

@TheCroBrosChannel WoK and WoR have smaller stakes, smaller scale, a different antagonist, and the protagonists are written differently

[@ericdculver]

I'm shocked. Whenever Shallan said: "Where's Iyatl?" I practically screamed: "She's Formless! It's a Lightweaving!" It was so obvious to me from the get go. Especially how Formless distracts Shallan from her first fight with Mraize.

[@b-f7p-s3e]

I've never read BAM as a murder monster; I got basically what I was expecting with her. I did think her ending for the book was super satisfying, but I wasn't disappointed overall. 2:58:08

[@artemis2227]

19:29 i could see "Dalinar" coming back as a brief moment of clarity, given in that scene he plants the ideas that led to his future self in the cognitive shadow of his past self. So itd be like Marsh at the end of mistbron era 1, a brief moment of clarity, and but it doesnt stick around

[@Degrad21]

And now there will be months of Wind and Truth Shardcast that will show me how stupid I am and how much I missed. Can't wait for the episodes analysing the herald/ashyn stuff. Also the magic stuff.

[@user-ez9ng2rw9c]

I feel the point of Szeth finding a skybreaker cause in Shinovar was him and his spren thinking the unmade was violating the law. Nale doesn't contradict it directly because he wants him on this journey. The thing that the Honor bearers did wrong was seeing how fucked up Ishar was and doing nothing about it. As for the rebellion specifically, in Szeth's position there's next to no other choice. We see how he isn't a leader. It also kills the last vestige of agency he has until basically his death in words of radiance.