2 Weird KONE EcoDisc Lifts with Motor Room in Biel, Switzerland

[@kubixon1352]

I just love the sound of EcoDisc motors, especially the MX18 sound

[@TheLiftDragon]

You mean the MX18?

[@kubixon1352]

@@TheLiftDragon Oh yeah, sorry

[@CatBot007]

I'm assuming it's for more surface area to grab the ropes and they weren't able to just add more ropes?

[@TheLiftDragon]

You mean as to why the MX10 is at an angle? Basically yes but also this way of mounting an MX10 for a motor room install is standardised by Kone.

[@spikester]

These Kone ecodisc machines are so elegant with those pancake style motors, gotta be some of the best if not way ahead of anyone else. I thought the larger parallel models are just as amazing too, it scales well.

[@TheLiftDragon]

The Ecodisc concept probably lead to the most elegant conventional rope MRL system today, indeed. It is extremely efficient when it comes to space usage. I have to say though that I like other more "conventional" gearless solutions as well, especially Schindlers PMS420 machines used in Eurolifts. They're just a lot thicker than an Ecodisc and therefore overhang towards the center of the shaft when installed on an MRL.

[@spikester]

​@@TheLiftDragon Indeed, love watching the gearless stuff especially how quiet they are knowing the load they're pulling, thanks for the good content. The first motor room I ever saw that got me hooked was a 35 floor Otis gearless in a set of 4 lifts each with pancake style floor selector/relay board before they modernized it all & ripped everything out including the 3 DC generators & DC machines which they replaced with geared drives with induction motor that you can now hear humming from several floors down when they run. Prior to that modernization they had an older car modernization that the pancake selector fed into some PCB digital board to make a pretty dot matrix style LED display for the cars & main floor displays, which funnily enough after modernization of the motor room they ripped that out too & went with simple less fancy segmented display for the floors. Interesting though why they went geared over gearless or keeping just the DC gearless machines. I also remember them refurbishing one of the DC rotors for the machines at one point several months prior to the modernization, seeing them move that thing from their work van was interesting nonetheless. Elevators are amazing machinery overall that we always take for granted to do their thing safely daily, the attention to detail in these installations is like an artist retention.

[@spikester]

Having lived in that building for many years prior to that modernization can still hear the DC generator hum & the exact pattern sound of relays clacking in my head before the silent movement of the lift beginning to go down from the top floor. Love it. EDIT: oh and the DC generators NEVER shut off, like EVER, the shutofff timer was broken for the years I lived there. haha

[@TheLiftDragon]

@@spikester You're welcome! I also got to film a DC gearless Otis install in Germany thanks to some friends, that one also had the said pie plate selector. Really interesting and fascinating piece of technology! Replacing DC gearless for geared machines is a really strange decision, that is something I don't see often. It kinda feels like a downgrade. Though I have actually seen it as well, the said building with the DC gearless Otis I mentioned above has 3 other lifts in a group that were modernised the same way. The 4th lift is still original because it is the service lift and the 3 main lifts were modernised with 18ATF geared machines. The speed stayed the same though. They all go 2.5m/s, which is a pretty fast but adequate speed for 24 floors. Indeed I think that many people don't realise what huge amount of technology is at work behind a lift. That's also part of my motivation to make these videos: To show what is happening behind the scenes. I have to admit though that a lot has been standardised within the past 20 years and lifts are not as special and unique anymore as they used to be. Back in the days the engineers had to find clever solutions for the problems at hand, that is how things like the pie plate selector came into existence. But nowadays almost everything can be done with a microcontroller and a bit of software, making everything work more and more the same.

[@TheLiftDragon]

​@@spikester Interesting to hear that, the switch-off still worked fine on the one I filmed. I wonder if the pattern of the relays switching is the same. I will upload the video at some point in the future, then you can compare it.

[@jenes-6065]

In which address is this elevator located

[@TheLiftDragon]

I do not disclose any addresses to the public, so I can't tell you unfortunately. However, after looking at your videos I think you're from the region and as you may know, there aren't many really tall buildings in the city. I think you can easily figure out where this is through maps, there are only few possibilities.

[@jenes-6065]

@@TheLiftDragon yea you are right

[@TheTheo58]

Never seen a gear-less or geared traction machine installed at an angle before. Resembles an industrial band saw. I noticed the angled machine had a defector sheave on the cab hoist ropes, unless this was a double wrapped (which did not appear to be) It's a mid rise building using a gear-less 1:1 roping I would think the owners would want a faster machine especially if their is high traffic. I noted the other gear-less machine on the machine beams in the standard installation.

[@TheLiftDragon]

Yea it kinda does. Well as already mentioned in other comments, this (the Ecodisc) is the only machine Kone produces for normal ropes. They come in various sizes and only the bigger ones are made to be installed in a motor room by default. In fact the MX18 is only for motor room installation (a MRL would get the MX20). The smaller one (MX10) needs the weird contraption. Double wrap does not exist here and in fact I haven't seen it on an EcoDisc yet. If it exists, it will only be on the very big high-rise models.

[@Moiraqi817]

I saw people use this EcoDisc machine (just the machine from Kone) put they have to replace its encoder to fit with the drive (Gefran for ex.) Do you have any thoughts why they have to replace it? Thanks in advance.

[@TheLiftDragon]

The stock encoder of the ecodisc only works with Kone's own VFDs and in order to drive an EcoDisc with another VFD the encoder needs to be replaced.

[@elevator_satellite]

Apparently the weird MX10 seems to be a KONE CombiSpace, you might be able to get some info from their website. But the motor configuration is the same.

[@TheLiftDragon]

Oh yes, that makes sense. I guess CombiSpace is the UK name for these retrofits then.

[@elevator_satellite]

@@TheLiftDragon It's an international name, it's sold in many regions.

[@TheLiftDragon]

@@elevator_satellite Oh ok. I had only seen it on Kone's UK site but I did not dig deep. I thought it was like the MonoGoods isbthe UK name for the Transys.

[@Emir-o4z]

Both lifts have different floors except for 1 and 17, tell me if they are restricted.

[@TheLiftDragon]

They serve different floors because this tactic was common in old tower blocks. It saved money because less doors are needed and also relay controllers back in the day got a lot more expensive with more floors. So having two separate lifts serving odd and even floors was a lot cheaper then a group of two serving all floors. You can easily see in the shaft footage that there's only a door every second floor.

[@王丰-u6k]

7-17?

[@王丰-u6k]

This elevator is equipped with a wireless intercom system.

[@NeilPrasad_1905]

This is absolutely weird, why choose MX10 and MX18 for a modernization like this? Even for capacity like 6-12 persons?

[@TheLiftDragon]

MX18 for the big lift is needed to support the high radial load in 1:1 configuration.

[@NeilPrasad_1905]

@@TheLiftDragon makes sense

[@rayyan6515]

The MX18 sounds different. Why? Is it different VF?

[@TheLiftDragon]

Because they both have different VF drives. The MX10 has a KDL and the MX18 has a KDM. The KDM can do regenerative breaking.

[@caja1491]

MX10 sounds a lot like N or E MonoSpace whereas MX18 sounds a lot like S MonoSpace in my opinion.

[@namhyeongkim_cos]

It's to rare to see a low rise KONE MiniSpace with 1:1 transmission roping and runs at the same speed as the ones with 2:1 transmission and of course also geared tractions.

[@TheLiftDragon]

In Switzerland this here is already considered mid-rise. The 1:1 roping is because these ecodisc machines have been used to retrofit the original 1:1 configuration of the lifts. Existing holes in the motor room floor can be used that way. The slow speed of 1m/s is due to the building owners having chosen the cheapest option, for the rise seen here 1.6m/s would have been the minimum speed for a proper lift. The original lifts pretty sure had a speed of 1.2m/s. Geared traction machines can easily go up to 2.5m/s by the way.

[@Txepetxcc]

Is the 1:1 (higher torque) the reason for the high pitched tone of the motor ? Never heard a Kone do that , im curious

[@caja1491]

How is this even a MiniSpace when it is not even a high speed lift?

[@namhyeongkim_cos]

​@@caja1491 MiniSpace is originally a brand of elevator with smaller machine room (hence the model name contains the word "Mini"). The high speed ones originally called "Alta" but the Alta was discontinued and succeeded by a MiniSpace variant called Highrise MiniSpace.

[@caja1491]

@@namhyeongkim_cos Oooo... I see.

[@elevator_satellite]

WOAHHH that is a weird configuration! An MX10 mounted sideways next to an MX18 for a low spec lift, ive never seen such a bizarre thing before! I really don't know why they would go for MX18, since that could have a top speed of around 4 m/s with 1:1 roping and 1000kg capacity, even an MX10 would be enough for that spec!

[@TheLiftDragon]

Yes indeed, this is a really strange set of lifts. I guess the building owners just bought the slowest version because that was the cheapest option. The thing is that the MX-number is just the size of the motor but they can come in various power specs. These two here are very low power models, the numbers are in the description. The reason why the bigger lifts needs an MX18 is pretty simple: Radial load. The MX10 is designed to hold a 1000 kg capacity lift in 2:1 config, but not in 1:1. Since you get double the load with 1:1 you'll need a bigger support.

[@elevator_satellite]

@@TheLiftDragon Ah yes, that is true. Have you, by any chance, encountered a 2.5 m/s NMX11? I'm sure they exist but I don't know what is the maximum capacity of it. Also, have you seen an MX14 before?

[@TheLiftDragon]

@@elevator_satellite Sadly, Kone is a rather rare brand in Switzerland and anything I've seen yet is only 1m/s slow stuff. But I'll defininitely film anything I find that is faster than standard.

[@elevator_satellite]

@@TheLiftDragon Oh, I see.

[@leepassionne]

​@@elevator_satellite là où je travaillais sur Paris il y avait 2 ascenseurs Kone avec NMX11 qui faisait du 2M/s sur 19 niveaux

[@ElevatorExploration]

Nice video: D I see that these two elevators are modernized because we can still see the old counterweight and cabin frame from the times as well as the original sheath guides. I find it really good that KONE has reinstalled the machines upstairs in the machine room, on the other hand the cabins, I have seen better in design terms at KONE.

[@TheLiftDragon]

Thank you! The small one has been modernized, with it's original CW and car still remaining. The bigger one is completely new, including a new car and CW. It is all written in the description in two seperate sections.

[@ElevatorExploration]

@@TheLiftDragon TK for this info

[@TechNerdNolan]

0:26 I thought the EcoDisc was broken lol

[@TheLiftDragon]

Haha, yea it looks really uncommon.

[@fatloadable]

MRL ECOdisc is versatile. It is powerful and perhaps the best drive. It is very common in Hong Kong handling flyover users panoramic lifts. Seldom breakdowns.

[@TheLiftDragon]

Ecodisc Machines are pretty common here as well. There even are models from the year 2000 that still are in good condition - quite old for an MRL.

[@ΕλένηΚαούστου]

I wanted that job so good luck!

[@mushroomcraft]

The Ecodisc looks like it's spinning so slow at 1:1

[@TheLiftDragon]

It's an unusual sight indeed. Especially the MX18, which may spin 5 times as fast for a typical application (2.5m/s in 2:1).

[@kidsgamestuido]

Cool sound motor

[@kidsgamestuido]

My favorite back weight

[@elevationtechvlog3474]

Hello...what is the brand of that elevator...

[@TheLiftDragon]

It literally says in the video title. Also there is more technical information in the video description.

[@DutchElevatorChannel]

Those are some big beafy motors!

[@TheLiftDragon]

The MX18 is a really chonky machine indeed.

[@caja1491]

MX18 sounds a lot like KONE S MonoSpace.

[@王丰-u6k]

There is no oil pot.

[@hariranormal5584]

Beeautiful sounds :PPP

[@TheLiftDragon]

Indeed xD

[@王丰-u6k]

This is an elevator without a heavy guide rail.

[@RealSonicstudiosMB]

nice motor sound lol

[@TheLiftDragon]

Thx

[@Elevators_around_Europa]

Eigentlich sollen das auch MiniSpace sein.

[@TheLiftDragon]

Nein, das sind CombiSpace. MiniSpace sind grundsätzlich MRL mit Motor im Schacht.

[@TheLiftDragon]

Nein, das sind CombiSpace. MiniSpace sind grundsätzlich MRL mit Motor im Schacht.

[@brunoais]

Isn't there lots of energy waste with braking? Using energy to brake is very consuming! Why not capture it (there are already some patents for that) or just use the brakes for it (much cheaper to replace)?

[@TheLiftDragon]

There is technically no energy used for braking a lift running on a variable frequency drive. In fact, the opposite happens: Energy is generated by the motor and the energy has to be dissipated. That's how we break things everywhere. The mechanical brakes on a lift would dissipate the kinetic energy of the lift into heat via friction. But we do not want to use the mechanical brakes to slow down the lift because that would be very stupid compared to the other option given: Electric braking. The mechanical brakes on a lift are only ever engaged when the lift is not moving, therefore the break pads do not wear. Except for an emergency stop of course, then they instantly apply. But as the name sugests that does not happen under normal operation. Now first of all it is crucial that you understand how variable frequency drives work. I suggest you watch this video which explains it in great detail: kzbin.info/www/bejne/r3azlmqIedmendE Now you know how the motor on a lift is driven. So what happens while braking? When the lift is braking, the motor acts as a generator. Remember: We have to dissipate the kinetic energy of the moving lift! So the energy goes out of the system via the motors cables back into the VFD. What happens there is simple: Since the rectifier is a one-way component, electricity can not flow back into the grid. Therefore the voltage of the DC intermediary circuit starts to rise. This would damage the VFD, so there is a braking resistor. In case the lift needs to brake, the VFD switches on this resistor and the energy is dissipated into heat. The braking resistors of lifts can be very big depending on the motor power, similar to a space heater. What happens in the end is the same as with a mechanical brake, but much more controllable and also there are no moving parts, meaning no wear (applying the brakes to a motor still rotating introduces wear). Now in terms of energy capture, that problem has already been solved long ago! There are VFDs that can recuperate, put the braking energy back into the grid. What you need for that is an extra set of 6 transistors on the grid side that do just the very same as the ones on the motor side: Generate a sine wave from DC. But in this case it will always be grid frequency. The braking resistor is still there though as a fallback. Now there is something extra to note about gearless lifts. These are lifts like the ones in the video here, where there is no gearbox and the motor is attached to the driving sheave directly. These lifts are extremely efficient because there are no gearbox losses. Since the counterweight is usually in balance with a half-full car, the lift will fall upwards if empty. So the motor is constantly braking when an empty lift travels upwards and therefore constantly generating energy! Same applies to a full lift decending. So with an efficient gearless system, a big percentage of the energy used can be won back. And the big amount of enery is not used to accelerate the lift but rather to actually move the load up or down. Recuperating VFDs exist from many manufacturers and are being used more and more often. Otis' ReGen drive is probably the most popular example. It even has an option for a display inside the car that shows how much energy is put back into the grid. In the end, the only thing that keeps all lifts from recuperating energy is whether the customer wants to spend the extra money for a recuperating drive. That is the current hurdle. But the technical problems have already been solved long ago and the systems are available on the market. I also have a video of an Otis ReGen install on my channel where the said display can be seen.

[@sictransitgloriamundi230]

Ich könnte mir nur vorstellen, dass die Raum- bzw. Deckenhöhe bei einem der Aufzüge den senkrechten Aufbau des Motors unmöglich gemacht hat.

[@TheLiftDragon]

Das ist zwar thoretisch möglich, jedoch gilt es zu bedenken, dass diese Unterkonstruktion um die Ecodisc im Maschinenraum aufzubauen, eine standardisierte Konstuktion von Kone ist. De raufbau ist in verschiedenen Winkeln erhältlich, wobei auch der Abstand der Seile von Gegengewicht und Kabine eine Rolle spielt. Je grösser der Abstand, desto schräger wird der Aufbau, damit der Seilumschlingungswinkel möglichst gross bleibt.

[@minhpro-i7m]

Get a kone to turn up speed to 1.6m/s !

[@TheLiftDragon]

These are specced to 1m/s with corresponding governors, so no, the speed can't be increased.

[@kenan763]

Too slow for 16 floor, for even 2 or 3 floor...

[@TheLiftDragon]

Ye the slow speed is really annoying. But it's an interesting Installation otherwise.

[@kenan763]

@@TheLiftDragon actually diagonal installation is really clever idea. That one probably is a freight lift, so maybe installers choosed that way to prevent rope slipping over the sheve. But i am struggling to understand the slow speed, if owners doenst want to spend money, why they modernised the elevators? İm sure their original version was better even they had two speed ac motors with geared traction. There is no point using gearless traction at low speed...

[@TheLiftDragon]

@@kenan763 There is no freight lift here, these are just two standard residential lifts. Everything can be seen in the video, the small MX10 drives the smaller lift (6 pers) and the bigger MX18 drives the big lift (12 pers). Both run in 1:1 config and they're also split into odd and even floors. Afaik Kone is quite eager to get a wrap angle of 180°, so they used this diagonal installation. The original lifts probably went 1.2m/s because that was the standard for innerdoorless Schindler residential lifts in the 60s. So the speed for sure is a downgrade. I assume money was the main reason here because new or modernized lifts can be stated as an improvement of the building. This can be taken as a reason to raise the rents for the apartments and get more money. Regarding the gearless: Kone only sells EcoDiscs and EcoReels afaik. So there are only gearless options from Kone today, no more geared machines.

[@kenan763]

@@TheLiftDragon the 12 persons one can be used as freight lift when someone is moving :D Also İn my apartment building has same lift logic, one for odd number floor one for even number floor. But i think thats useless logic. For instance we call the odd floor Lift from ground floor to 9th floor to go ground floor when even floor lift at 8th floor :D A common control logic would be better than this.

[@TheLiftDragon]

​@@kenan763 Yea the bigger one can be used for moving. Just bad if you live in an odd floor where there's only a door for the small lift. The separate odd/even floors are just a relic from the old times. If you look at the part where you can see the shaft view: There are only doors every two floors! So in order to get these 2 lifts in a normal group you would first have to break holes in the walls and add more doors. And that would of course be way too expensive for the greedy management. Also this does not meet the fire regulations because a fireman's lift has to stop at every floor and has to have a hatch and a ladder to get on top.

[@Alpendohle222]

Ich han gern Kone... Aber no viel lieber hanis Kona.

[@TheLiftDragon]

JES

[@Swiss_Vator]

@@TheLiftDragon Was ist deine Lieblings Aufzugs Marke?

[@TheLiftDragon]

@@Swiss_Vator Grundsätzlich würde ich sagen Schindler. Das meiste von Schindler ist gut, aber nicht alles.

[@Swiss_Vator]

@@TheLiftDragon meine auch!

[@gewitterstationirgendwo4008]

1 m/s Voll langsam für 16 Stockwerke

[@TheLiftDragon]

Jop, das ist viel zu langsam. Sollte mindestens 1.6 sein.