John 1 And Early Christian Theologies - Dr. Dale Tuggy

[@johnspartan98]

Funny, I got a notification from someone agreeing with a comment I made here and I was just tweaking my commentary on John 1:1. I'll post it for people to like or criticize, whatever suits your fancy, a. In the beginning was the word (ho logos), b. and the word (ho logos) was with the God (ton theon), c. and the word (ho logos) was divine (theos), or; and divine was the word. John 1:1c: Greek: [kai theos en ho logos] ; English: and divine [theos] was the word [ho logos]; or, and the word was divine. James Moffatt, former professor of Greek and New Testament Exegesis at Mansfield College in Oxford, England, and author of the well-known Moffatt Bible, agrees. He translated John 1:1c as, “the logos was divine.” In 1:1b, Ton Theon with the definite article is properly translated to English as "the God" with an uppercase "G" to signify it is referring to YHWH the only true God. Translators remove the definite article and use uppercase "G" to make God a proper noun referring to YHWH, the only true God (John 17:3). In 1:1c, Theos without the definite article is normally translated as god with a lowercase "g" and is sometimes translated as "divine." The divine translation more accurately applies here since there is no other deity mentioned. In John 1:1 all three instances of "ho logos" do not refer to another person or lessor god. The word is YHWH's word, and more specifically the writer is referring to none other than the GOSPEL which was in YHWH's forethought from eternity. The use of theos without the definite article, sandwiched between "ton theon" and "ho logos," indicates "theos" is being used as a predicate adjective to describe the spirit nature and qualities of YHWH and His word as being the same spirit, life, light, eternal, holy, and divine Logos. Both YHWH and His Logos are DIVINE. "Ho Logos" is an attribute and possession of YHWH, not a person, not a lessor god, and not Jesus. There is no Biblical basis for concluding that the second use of theos (without the definite article) is referring to a second person whose name is the word. The Author does not write: In the beginning was Jesus. Those who claim Jesus is called the word of God in Revelation are on thin ice because Revelation 19:11-16 refers to YHWH and not Jesus. R.H Charles is the world's foremost authority on the Book of Revelation. In his two volume set: An Exegetical Commentary on the Book of Revelation he explains his findings after having been commissioned and working for 25 years on Revelation. No one else has done what he has done. Whether a person believes the opinion of R.H. Charles or not, one hotly contested verse is not enough to rely on for coming to the conclusion that Jesus is the word in John 1:1 or anywhere else in the Bible. No other deity besides YHWH is mentioned in John 's Gospel. Jesus never refers to himself as "ho logos" and neither do the Apostles. Quote: "The second use of theos in John 1:1c serves as a predicate adjective rather than as a predicate noun." [citation: Maximillian Zerwick, Biblical Greek, Rome: Scripta Ponificii Instituti Biblici, 1963, p. 55, par. 171; p. 57, par. 176. Regarding John 1:1b "pros ton theon" It is incorrect to insist that "pros" points to another person (Jesus) as having an eternal preexistent relationship with YHWH. What John is telling us is exactly what the Bible teaches: the Gospel is of the same eternal and divine spirit nature as what YHWH is. There is an eternal relationship between YHWH and His word without the word being the person of Jesus. According to Bauer’s Greek-English Lexicon the preposition pros with the accusative, as in John 1:1, 2, is a marker of movement or orientation toward someone or something. The context determines if it is a person or a something. Pros can mean a number of things such as, according to Bauer's: toward, towards, to, near, at, during, aiming at, striving toward, against, for, to indicate a connection by marking a point of reference, with reference to/regard to (about, because of, with respect to, which concerns, which belongs to, what makes for, in accordance with, in order to, for the purpose of),in adverbial expressions (“tends toward” Jas. 5:4) by, at, near. Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon adds the definition “pertaining to.” Also, various translations render pros with the accusative as: Concerning, as respects, pertaining to, of, even to. Furthermore, the Greek word generally rendered as ‘with’ is para and not pros. The reason pros is translated "with" in John 1:1 can only be due to TRADITION. The mystics, Gnostics, and Philosophers like Philo infected the early church with a lessor god and /or logos theory that conflicts with the Bible. NOTE 1: The LXX renders pros ton theon as “to God.” Eighteen other occurrences of pros ton theon in the New Testament Scriptures are translated as: “to God,” “toward God,” “related to God” or “pertaining to God.” For example, many translations render the phrase pros ton theon in Hebrews 5:2 as: “pertaining to God...” (NASB); “in relation to God...” (ESV); “related to God...” (NIV). Similarly, in Hebrews 2:17 and Romans 15:17. The same or similar phrases are used in a number of other texts. Bauer’s choice of phrase for Romans 15:17 is “that which concerns God” in its rendering of "ta pros ton theon." There is no grammatical or contextual reason why some of these definitions of pros ton theon should not apply in John 1:1. "Ho Logos" rendered as ‘the expression of divine purpose’ gives the following possible readings: John 1:1 a. “In the beginning was the word, b. and the word was the message of the divine purpose concerning, related to, integral to: God, c. and what God was, the message was. (divine). John 1:2: The same was in the beginning pertaining to, with respect to, integral to, God.” NOTE 2: According to Colwell’s Rule the second word theos in John 1:1 is anarthrous. "What Does the Phrase “And God Was the Logos” Prove? The whole sentence is: “In the beginning was the logos and the logos was integral to God and God was the logos.” This linking of the second occurrence of "theos" (God) with "ton theon" (the God) using the conjunction “and” shows that the passage is speaking of one and the same God (YHWH). There is no second person being referred to that is called the "word." John 6:63 states it in no uncertain terms. God's word is spirit, meaning: of the same divine eternal substance. God is a spirit. (John 4:24) God's word is spirit. (John 6:63) God's word does not become flesh. (John 3:6) God's word is placed INTO Jesus. Deuteronomy 18:18. Therefore ho logos in the context of John's prologue relates to the Gospel having been with YHWH from eternity, as well as, being issued forth from YHWH at the beginning of the NT Age: delivered through John the Baptist, Jesus, and the final message to the Gentiles through Paul. "...and the word (the Gospel) was/is DIVINE!" It has the power to save lives. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Does that not prove the word is the Gospel (in John 1:1) that was with YHWH from eternity, and was revealed "in the beginning" of this NT age of enlightenment to John the Baptist, then Jesus, and final revelations and mysteries given to Paul? Who would deny the word is Divine? More evidence pros points to something rather than someone. Job 10:12-16 informs us that God’s attributes such as life, love, wisdom, power are with Him. Isa 40.10; 62.11 states “His reward is with Him.” 2 Kings 3:12 states “The word of the Lord is with him.” In John 1:1c the Greek phrase "pros ton theon" refers to things and not a person. Other examples make this point clear: Heb 2:17; 5:1; Rom 17:15 we have “things with God”; Acts 24:16 “conscience with God”; Rom 5:1 “peace with God”; 2Cor 3:4; 1 John 3:21 “confidence with God”; 1Thess 1:8 “Faith with God.” In addition, Jesus cannot be read into the text of John 1:1 as being YHWH or the word because YHWH and His word are not begotten or born. Jesus was begotten and born. Conclusion: Jesus, the Son of God, is not the "word" (logos) of John 1:1. Rather, Jesus spoke his Father's logos....the very words he said belonged to his FATHER. (John 7:15-17; John 12:49-50; John 14:10; John 14:24). The belief that the word of God became the flesh of Jesus conflicts with the Bible which teaches us that the word of God came THROUGH Jesus to humanity to dwell in our hearts and minds and transform us (believers). The Logos of God was placed into Jesus by God. Deuteronomy 18:18; Acts 3:22

[@jesusisthechristthesonofgod]

This is way to long.

[@johnspartan98]

@@jesusisthechristthesonofgod It needs to be long to prove to people they have been lied to and hoodwinked by pulpit master's preaching a gnostic and mystical false interpretation of John's prologue. If you think it's long, consider the over 5,000 hours I spent digging through the scriptures and all the commentaries I could fine on the prologue alone, and then consider the more then 5,000 hours i've spent listening to critics which actually helped me tweak and fortify my arguments by digging deeper into the Biblical Greek and the Bible itself. In total, since I was 9 years old, I have studied the Bible for over 100,000 hours. I'm sorry I can't put my Biblical exegetical defence of my interpretation into a meme for all the people out there who have lost their attention spans to a meme mentality. 1.1a) In the beginning was the word, 1:1b) and the word was with YHWH. 1:1c) And what the word was YHWH was. My commentary answers many common questions and some arguments that have been presented to me. It's YHWH's own eternal word, and no one else's. YHWH's word is not a person, it is integral to YHWH. YHWH is spirit and his word is spirit John 6:63. His word is therefore divine, light, life, spirit, eternal, and true. Jesus not the word. He spoke the words YHWH gave him to speak.

[@johnspartan98]

@@jesusisthechristthesonofgod You could do what I do when I'm in a hurry. I look for a writer's conclusions first sometimes. Then if I need to I go through the whole commentary later when I have time, that's what I do.

[@jesusisthechristthesonofgod]

@@johnspartan98 If people are too lazy to read the Bible, they won't be much interested in reading huge comments. That's what I'm saying. And most people who post huge comments are out of their minds, but not all, that I will grant.

[@PreachingJesus]

That was actually super helpful. Do you have any thoughts or can you put me to resources to talk about Colossians 1 and Hebrews that seem to imply the Son was involved in creation? I'm looking for a good resource that explains this in the Unitarian view. Also any book recommendations on this subject would be appreciated.

[@bosse641]

The Trinity is confusion. And confusion is not of God, but of Satan.

[@trumenfreight6055]

Actually in the bible its the children of the devil that hate the assertion that Christ is God. The children of God say that Yahushua is God e.g. john 20v28 Philippians 2.

[@bosse641]

@@trumenfreight6055 Jesus the Messiah(second Adam) looked up to heaven and said: "You Father are the only true God." (John 17:3) And the apostles agreed with Jesus: "To us there is but one God, the Father." (1 Corinthians 8:6) And the Father spoke the same eternal truth a long long time ago: "I am YHVH, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God." (Isaiah 45:5) And "By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established." (2 Corinthians 13:1) .....so there you go. "Scripture cannot be set aside." (John 10.35)

[@trumenfreight6055]

@@bosse641 please respond to the scriptures i gave you. Where the children of satan denied that christ was God (just like you do) while the children of god said christ was God. Deal with this first then we will discuss the texts you raised after.

[@bosse641]

@@trumenfreight6055 I'm too old for games. Go find someone else to play with.

[@trumenfreight6055]

@@bosse641 Staying on topic is a game? This is what happens when Christ does not love you enough to open your eyes. You becomes a coward. When Christ does choose to give you a spine. I will be waiting to defend the truth that is in the bible. I will do it as an adult by staying on topic.

[@Inaworldoflove]

My right ear loved this video 🙄

[@ChrisAtterson]

no sound?

[@J.MagnusSolheim]

or "in beginning was the word and the word was toward the God and God was the word" CV

[@pabloacevedo6645]

Explain vs.14 ,who was made flesh, and dwelt among us?

[@jasensargent6176]

Why did the Jews think Jesus was just an average person? Because he looked and acted as a normal human, the son of Joseph. Why then does Paul say that Jesus is the image of the invisible God? Why does Jesus say that if you have seen him then you’ve seen the Father. Read Luke 10:16. I think if you consider this, you should be able to come to an understanding.

[@moosa86]

John 1:14 is referring to God’s Word (His wise teachings) becoming flesh (ie becoming embodied in a man). Jesus Christ was a living embodiment of God’s teachings. *1 John 4:12* *"NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN GOD;* if we love one another, God lives in us, and his love is perfected in us."

[@MichaelTheophilus906]

@@jasensargent6176Deut 6.4-6, Mark 12.28-32, John 17.3, John 20.17, Rom 15.6, Rom 16.27, I Cor 8.6, II Cor 11.31, I Tim 2.5, Rev 3.2, Rev 3.12, and many other scriptures.

[@TheLastos]

Incorrect while I am not Trinitarian there are many so-called Gods. "You are Gods, Sons of the Most High" and yes they are not the True God but it does not make false Gods in as much as Jesus is the saviour does not make Moses a false saviour

[@oneseekinglight9491]

Deu 6:4 Hear O Israel: Yehovah our God, Yehovah is one. *_The Book of John starts by telling us of Yehovah the creator, the one true God. Brilliantly showing us again the creation of Genesis where Yehovah God spoke everything into existence_* John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word (what Yehovah said) and the Word (what Yehovah said) was with God, and the Word (what Yehovah said) was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him (Yehovah) and without Him (Yehovah) nothing was made that was made. In Him (Yehovah) was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness and the darkness did not comprehend it. -- Psalm 33:6 By the WORD of Yehovah the heavens were made, and BY THE BREATH OF HIS MOUTH all their host. -- Psalm 148:5 Let them praise the name of Yehovah: for he COMMANDED, and they were created. -- Gen 1:3 Then GOD SAID, “Let there be light”; and there was light. -- Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith Yehovah that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am Yehovah; and there is none else. *_He then introduces us to John who calls everyone to repent and turn back to the ways of Yehovah. To turn back to the light, to God’s laws (Torah) and commandments._* John 1:6-13 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. He (John) came as a witness to testify of the Light (Yehovah) so that all might believe through him. He was not the Light but he came to testify about the Light. That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. He (Yehovah) was in the world and the world was made through Him (Yehovah) and the world did not know Him (Yehovah). He (Yehovah) came to His (Yehovah’s) own (people) but they received him not. But as many as received Him (Yehovah), to them He (Yehovah) gave the right to become children of God to those who believe in His name (Yehovah) who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. -- John 1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Yehovah, as said the prophet Isaiah. -- Psalm 19:8 The precepts of Yehovah are right, giving joy to the heart. The commands of Yehovah are radiant, giving light to the eyes. -- Psalm 119:105 Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path. -- Proverbs 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp, And the law (Torah) a light; Reproofs of instruction are the way of life. -- 1 John 1:5-7 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God Is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in the darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Yeshua Messiah his Son cleanseth us from all sin. *_It is only now that John speaks of Yeshua who is ‘God’s WORD in the flesh’. He (Yeshua) speaks that which his Father, Yehovah God, instructs him to speak and John 1:18 shows that he ‘is not God’ but that he has come to declare him (Yehovah) to us._* John 1:14-18 And the Word (what Yehovah said) became flesh and dwelt among us. And we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father. Full of grace and truth. John bore witness of Him and cried out saying “This was He of whom I said ‘He who comes after me (after this moment in time) is preferred before me for He was before me (higher in rank than John).’ And of His (Yeshua’s) fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Yeshua Messiah. No man has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared him. -- Deut 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. -- John 12:49-50 “For I have not spoken on my own authority; but the Father who sent me gave me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. And I know that his command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak.” -- Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.” -- Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. *_Who is Yeshua? ... He is The Messiah, the Son of God._* -- Matthew 1:1 The record of the genealogy of Yeshua the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham: -- Matthew 16:15-17 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Messiah (anointed) the Son of the living God”. Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.” -- John 4:25-26 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming. When he comes, he will tell us all things. Yeshua said to her, “I who speak to you am He.” -- John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, my God and your God. -- Acts 17:30-31 “Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained, He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.” --1 Cor 8:6 Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Yeshua Messiah, through whom all things came and through whom we live. -- 1 Cor 11:3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Messiah, the head of woman is man, and the head of Messiah is God. -- 1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Messiah Yeshua.

[@theguyver4934]

Is there any work done to get rid of the false pagan trinity from this world as fast as possible

[@FayazKadir]

@@theguyver4934 yes. islam

[@theguyver4934]

@@FayazKadir - I'm talking in the favor of the christian religion and I'm that as a muslim

[@kevinmichaelhughes4257]

That might be the comment I've ever read lol And I've read say to much then I should have on KZbin. I'm going to print this off and read it to my family Your so correct that John 1, Doesn't even talk about Jesus until verse 14 at the earliest And JHVH is God real name, I can't believe how almost every translation took his name out and called him Lord instead of JEHOVAH over 7000 times. If ppl would really take time to read the Bible from beginning to the end they would see the biggest sin in the whole scriptures is idolatry, To believe on a man as God almighty is the number one worst thing a person who supposedly wants to be in covenant with JHVH can do Jesus said it was the most important commandment, God told Moses it was the first of the ten commandments And it will always be the most important commandment ever And so many confused so called Christian ppl are under a strong delusion, Read 2 thessalonians chapter 2. That's definitely saying how ppl believe on a man trying to be God. That would be the false Jesus who never claimed to be God at all. Very sad most will perish for being Idolaters

[@jesusisthechristthesonofgod]

@@kevinmichaelhughes4257 Not only did they replace Jehovah with LORD, but now they are replacing Jehovah with Yahweh. They also replaced one with three, and Son of God with Son is God.

[@Praxeus514]

Perhaps you could look at it as the Son (God as man) is the human manifestation of the Father (God as God).

[@SmalltimR]

Or, we would just take Jesus and Father to their word and accept that Jesus was the son of GOD sent by GOD to redeem mankind from the sin and death brought into the world by Adam

[@Praxeus514]

@@SmalltimR The human being Jesus of Nazareth was in fact begotten by the One God via the Virgin Mary and was fully human. I agree. However he was also that One God (not one third of God ie God the Son) existing as that full human. He was the One Creator who manifested himeself within his creation in order to redeem that creation. I join Thomas in bowing before him and crying 'my Lord and my God!'. "John 1:10-13 NLT He came into the very world he created, but the world didn't recognize him. [11] He came to his own people, and even they rejected him. [12] But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God. [13] They are reborn-not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God." May God enable you and I together to find all truth and righteousness by his Spirit.

[@SmalltimR]

@@Praxeus514 Let's consider; _'God the Son'_ - is nowhere written and therefore revealed as a fabrication and a lie _'existing as that full human'_ - is nowhere written and therefore revealed as a fabrication and a lie _'He was the One Creator'_ - is nowhere written and therefore revealed as a fabrication and a lie _'who manifested himeself'_ - is nowhere written and therefore revealed as a fabrication and a lie _'He came into the very world he created'_ - is nowhere written and therefore revealed as a fabrication and a lie And finally, the words _'May God enable you and I together to find all truth and righteousness by his Spirit'_ while true, do not work in your favor here at all, and as the record shows that your words as is your belief, is not of GOD at all, but rather, in-that it consists of fabrication and lies, and therefore, revealing to be of the father of lies as a result. - follow Jesus, not men!

[@lauratempestini5719]

Please , do you know why Satan would want the lie of the trinity ???

[@iwantthetruthandnothingbut6521]

@Sharon L amen blessed one!😍

[@johnspartan98]

The trinity is the Devil's way of getting people to violate the first and greatest commandment without even knowing it.

[@mrsegagamecube6419]

Yes. Jesus said there would be many who would come in his name and do works and teach in his name but that he in fact does not know them. They are people who are deceivers, have been deceived ( willingly or not ) who are being moved by the spirit of this world to try and mislead the masses so that the masses would be marked for death too. Satan knows he's going to die and wants to take as many with him as he can and the easiest way to do that is to corrupt the Christian faith and present the lie as a truth from God.

[@johnspartan98]

Yes, because it's the Devil's deceptive way of getting people to violate the first and greatest commandment . The tri-personal god is an unBiblical false god.

[@johnspartan98]

@Sharon L Hell is a pagan word used for a pagan concept that is unBiblical. "Satan" means adversary. Devil is more accurate. His destination is the lake of fire a.k.a. the second death. Sheol and Hades were improperly translated as Hell. Sheol and Hades mean the GRAVE. There is no underworld where immortal souls are tormented for eternity. From the beginning the offer has been eternal life or eternal death. The Bible clearly implies those who believe and have the spirit in them receive eternal life and those who do not believe and do not have the spirit PERISH in the lake of fire. When I read your comments I see a person pushing traditional "Churchianity" over the truth of God's word. You get some things write but so much wrong. The Devil always feeds people some truth so that they swallow his lies. Sola Scriptura is the way of TRUTH over tradition. The Bible is our schoolmaster that leads us to salvation. Paul's revelation of the Gospel of the Grace of God is the ONLY way to salvation for this present Age of Grace. Look in the 4 Gospels and the OT all you want, but you won't find but hints of the MYSTERY that was revealed to Paul. It was a mystery because it was not revealed until it was revealed to Paul.....and that mystery is the holy spirit operating in us as the spirit of Christ, spirit of adoption, spirit of sonship, spirit of confirmation, spirit of glory, spirit of righteousness, spirit of mercy, spirit of humility, spirit of patience....and these are not all different spirits. They are all one and the same gift in the believer functioning differently as the need arises. Study Romans to Philemon first and study the rest of the Bible by keeping in mind it was written to and for Israel....not the Body of Christ. The moral spiritual lessons are for all of us, but the rest is for Israel.

[@MichaelTheophilus906]

Trinitarian concept: Word = Jesus. God = trinity. In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with the trinity, and Jesus was the trinity. Jesus was in the beginning with the trinity.

[@billschlegel1]

John 1 is not Genesis 1. John intentionally used some similar language to introduce the new beginning that God brings about through the man Christ Jesus. There is no Logos in Genesis 1. There is no "create" in John 1. In Genesis, light is before life. In John, life is before light. The darkness of Genesis is not the darkness of John 1:5 John the Baptizer has no business being in verse 6 of a Genesis creation account. It makes perfect sense that John the Baptizer is in vs. 6 introducing the work of God through the man Jesus.

[@trumenfreight6055]

BS. John 1 is citing Gen 1. What do you expect John to say you liar? You expect to literary say " Genesis 1 verse 1" The bible was not versified back then. So when a teacher wanted to cite a passage they would use popular words from passage as a scriptural reference. For instance if i said "i made him an offer he could not refuse" you would know that i am quoting The Godfather. Same for the people that taught the bible before there were verse divisions. What most people including yourself get wrong about Genesis one is that you think it is a the origin of the earth we live on. It is not. Genesis 1 is a prophecy about redemptive history. The creation of the physical world is in Gen 2 not gen 1. The 2 creation accounts (Gen 1 & Gen 2) are different. The order of creation is different in each. What john is doing in John 1 is explaining Gen 1 NOT carbon copying it. So, of course, things will be stated differently because he is explaining. Christ is our God

[@zelenisok]

That is the wrong definition of docetism, and that is a random claim that coming in the flesh means being a man in a broader sense. John wrote about coming in the flesh (sic) because there were Christians who denied Jesus had flesh, a body, but believed he was a kind of a phantasm, an apparition, like a 3d projection, appearing to have a body but not actually having one. That is docetism. Neither the upper left (modalist, 'oneness') option, nor the lower left one are docetism.

[@alexanderrigby6917]

Did he..share your resources and not the doctrines of your own mind. Not to mention that all Scripture is given by the inspriration of the one true God, YHWH. Meaning the God of the Bible. HalleluYah.

[@andrewstucker845]

The book of Psalm mentioned that God is not man. Isaiah mentioned also that Christ is a mighty God and Father, but not Almighty God. Christ said his Father is greater than himself. Therefore, Christ is a lesser God. Note also that in History, 2 people were born by women without a husband or man. Osairus and Plato. Are these people therefore Gods?

[@xerdanescal4105]

But Mighty God is stilla God...why do you guys still deny that He is God

[@GoldAndSilver988]

Even then Jefferson would have been much more likely to have come up with an idea about the internet than Al Gore ever would have, lol.

[@moosa86]

😂

[@eliasarches2575]

I favour the idea that Jesus was the word and was “a god”. It doesn’t mean he was literally a god on par with the almighty, but was a mighty (created) spirit being commissioned as a representative of God. John 10 says “you will be called gods” so I don’t see it as problematic. But I don’t find issue with rendering the verse and the word was “God” - as one could understand that as Jesus acting as God (ie his representative) which is backed up by other texts including Moses being called a god (in the context of being His representative). I do find plausibility in Tuggy’s view, saying the final clause was referring to God (but much less so than the previous alternatives). One could say the word is a God’s message and the word is God by being literally a part of God (thus claiming John 1:1 refers entirely to the father), that would mean Jesus is a manifestation of God’s “word” on earth. I’m not sure it’s critical which position one takes, but it is critical that worship go to Jehovah God alone. Of course proper worship can only come through accepting His organisation - Jehovah’s Witnesses. They are the only ones doing his will on earth today.

[@TheProofLady]

I don't agree with trinitarian theology at all, but believing that Jehovah's Witnesses are the truth is honestly just hilarious. Wake me up when their various end of the world predictions finally come true LOL

[@eliasarches2575]

@@TheProofLady oh yea, we had mistaken expectations as did the 1st century disciples (Acts 1:7). So if you’re going to reject us for that reason, you should do the same for the apostles of Jesus. The fact is that Jehovah’s witnesses are the only people preaching the good news of God’s kingdom *worldwide* - which is not only a sign of the last days, but a command of Jesus (Matt 24:14). Unitarians are great in many ways, but they need to accept that Jehovah has always provided organisational direction to his people - first through the Jewish nation, then the first century congregation, and now through Jehovah’s witnesses. Our works - and commitment to biblical truth - testify that we are the *only* ones doing God’s will and not only that, but we do not blaspheme God by believing the trinity. May God guide you to humbly seek truth 🙏

[@TheProofLady]

@@eliasarches2575 First of all, your line of reasoning is completely false. The apostles were living at a time in which the entirety of the revelation had not been revealed, whereas you as a JW do, in fact, live at a time were one can understand all of relevant scripture. The Bible clearly states that no man knows the day or hour of judgement day, yet JWs continued on, proclaiming that the world is going to end on multiple occasions, all of which were failed predictions. Second, let's say your assumption is true, that means that your own understanding of the failures of Jehovah's Witnesses goes against their own literature on the subject: "They Shall Know That a Prophet Was Among Them" (The Watchtower, April 1, 1972), which states that God had raised Jehovah's Witnesses as "a prophet to help [people], to warn them of dangers and declare things to come". "Identifying the Right Kind of Messenger" (The Watchtower, May 1, 1997, page 8), which identifies the Witnesses as his "true messengers... by making the messages he delivers through them come true", in contrast to "false messengers", whose predictions fail. This directly goes against the idea of the fallibility of the message of JWs are you understand it. "The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah" - How? (1971, p. 70, 292), which describes Witnesses as the modern Ezekiel class, "a genuine prophet within our generation". Thirdly, we all know how Jehovah's Witnesses treat those who have been abused from within their ranks: In court cases in the United Kingdom and the United States, the Watch Tower Society has been found negligent in its failure to protect children from known sex offenders within the congregation. The Society has settled other child abuse lawsuits out of court, reportedly paying as much as $780,000 to one plaintiff without admitting wrongdoing. In 2017, the Charity Commission for England and Wales began an inquiry into Jehovah's Witnesses' handling of allegations of child sexual abuse in the United Kingdom. The Australian Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse found that of 1,006 alleged perpetrators of child sexual abuse investigated by Jehovah's Witness elders since 1950, "not one was reported by the church to secular authorities." The Royal Commission also found that the Watch Tower Society legal department routinely provided incorrect information to elders based on an incorrect understanding of what constitutes a legal obligation to report crimes in Australia. In 2021, Jehovah's Witnesses in Australia agreed to join the nation's redress scheme for sexual assault survivors to maintain its charity status there. No organization this evil, much like the Catholic Church, is speaking as a representative for God. Also, why did the Church register as an NGO with the United Nations if its the image of the wild beast, according to Revelations?

[@cygnustsp]

@@eliasarches2575 man I really hope this was satire. JWs have a plausible christology but just about everything else they believe and practice are ridiculous and abuses not just the Bible but moral sense as well. The preaching they do is based on watchtower material that quotes selective Bible passages usually completely out of context. Tell me, the Gentle Times rendered in 1914 and Armageddon is near, right? How soon will your preaching work turn into outright condemnation of the world instead of helping separate the sheep and the goats? It'll be someone after the movie studios are built right?

[@johnspartan98]

Can you provide Biblical evidence that the writer of John 1:1 intended the reader to conclude the word is Jesus? After studying the Bible for over 100,000 hours during 59 years as a believer, and spending more than 5,000 hours making Biblical sense of the prologue, I can't find any evidence whatsoever to support the view that the writer intended the reader to conclude the word is Jesus or another small "g" god or "God." The word is with YHWH because it is a function of YHWH's spirit. John 6:63. The idea of the word being another god person is pagan mysticism, Gnosticism, and Hellenistic Philosophy. BTW. Neither the writer of the Prologue, or the apostle John and his Gospel, have anything to add to Paul's Gospel that was revealed to him in Acts 13, and which he preached for the first time in Antioch of Presidia in the province of Galatia (Acts 13:16-47). No longer was circumcision, water baptism, or any rites, rituals, pilgrimages, or practices of the Law required for salvation. Paul's call to a new ministry in Acts 13:1-2 changed everything. He became the apostle to the Gentiles. Meanwhile, Peter and the little flock of Jews at Jerusalem were still under the law and requiring gentiles to become proselytes to the Law. In fact, even as late as Acts 21, the apostles at Jerusalem are still involved in temple sacrifices. Why the difference? They were ministering to Jews and proselytes and adding people to the elect of Israel known as the Bride. Paul left that ministry behind in Acts 13, and converts to his message entered into the Body of Christ. There was clearly a transition taking place and as of Acts 13, no longer were Gentiles required to become proselytes to the Law of Moses. They could enter directly into the body as uncircumcised, by faith in Jesus apart from the law. Paul's new message led to the controversy in Acts 15, in which the first council of Jerusalem takes place. Bottom line is, nothing in the prologue or John's Gospel can add anything to Paul's Gospel post Acts13. Paul's Gospel stands alone and needs no embellishments from any of the others. Paul received it by direct revelation. It was a secret not revealed to the prophets. Ephesians 3:7-12; Ephesians 6:19-20; 2 Timothy 2:8-9; Colossians 1:24-27; Colossians 4:3-4; Romans 16:25-26. The 12 took no part in Paul's ministry. They agreed not to. Galatians 2:6-9. I wish I had learned this earlier. It would have saved me many thousands of hours of study. Romans to Philemon is the "need to know now" stuff. The rest makes interesting reading if you like learning about God's dealings with Israel in the past, and what happens with Israel in the future.

[@trumenfreight6055]

47 minutes into this video and not a single word of exegesis on John 1. He has not demonstrated how the first century unitarian "christians" got their interpretation out of John 1.

[@Thedisciplemike]

Its pretty apparent. Over 700 times the phrase 'word of God' is used in the OT and NT leading up to John, and its never of a person but simply the message of God. I'm pretty sure if you were alive during John's immediate audience you would know exactly what he was talking about.

[@harrylime9611]

@@Thedisciplemike Logos as the origanizing principle of the universe goes back to Heraclitus.

[@trumenfreight6055]

@@Thedisciplemike Except that John himself says the the Word was WITH god and WAS God. Then John says that the word was doing something, that is creation of ALL things, without a single thing that was created being created without "HIM". John himself says that the word was with God. How can a message be with a person. No-one talks of a message being with someone. Only people are with other people. Also how does a message "come". A message does not have legs. Something that comes is something that has legs. Isaiah describes the Word of God not just going but also returning to God (Isaiah 55v11). Mesasges dont come and return. Messengers do. That means that a messenger is being nicknamed "The Word". This is called a euphemism.

[@Thedisciplemike]

@@trumenfreight6055 I agree with you.

[@gleasonparker1684]

I THINK JESUS WAS ABLE TO TAKE HIS FATHER'S NAME. LIKE JOHN 20.28 AND 1 JOHN 5.20 .

[@silouanmathew6599]

'And no one hath ascended up to heaven, but **He that came down from Heaven**, The Son of man which is in Heaven.' - John 3:13 bibleproofs.org/ia.html

[@quiestlaverite7731]

In the beginning was Eve, and Eve was with Adam and Eve was Adam ... Genesis 5, 1 - 2: "This is the scroll of the genealogical records of ADAM. On the day Elohim created ADAM, in the likeness of Elohim He made HIM. Male and female He created THEM, and He blessed THEM and called THEIR name ADAM (!!!!!) on the day THEY were created.

[@WilliamHenderson-cd8rl]

Jesus Christ was not God the Father he was born from the ceed of David and Mary his mother Jesus Christ never done anything without God's approval Jesus Christ never spoke his own words the only words Jesus Christ spoke that God told him to speak Jesus Christ never at any time never spoke of itself only spoke of the God the father in John said no one at any time has ever seen God are shape our farm seems like to me Jesus Christ had a shape and form God bless you 🙏♥️🙏

[@VigilanteMian]

You folks, so far, are the best form of Christians. Your belief comes very close to what the disciples of Jesus (Peace be upon him) believed in. God Almighty says in the Quran (4:171) "O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs"

[@theguyver4934]

Inshallah they will become the majority of christendom and the day will come when christians and muslims will not need to do dialogue but we will site together with love and respect to each other and both books and the only thing keeping apart us would be the interpretation

[@VigilanteMian]

@Dom the best Messiah is a title Yushua bar Maryam is his name.

[@alexanderrigby6917]

The God of the Bible, the one true God who made the heavens and earth. And who said that there is no God besides Me is not the God of the Quran. Allah is a pagan god. The moon god. The sickle moon and the sun is his emblem..and his pedophile prophet Muhammad who married a six year old girl. Islam is a sex cult. And a cult established and founded in Babylon which was instigated through the Jesuits. In regard to the trinity it was also instituted in Babylon and has been instituted over the many years. Including other pagan rituals such as easter and christmas. Both are steeped in paganism. And furthermore the worship of the sun. Papal Rome has garmented itself the mantle of Pagan Rome. As Yahshua said; Enter by the narrow gate and beware of false christs, false prophets and false doctrines. There is only one God, Yahweh, the Father. And one Lord, Yahshua Messiah, the Son of the living God. HalleluYah.

[@michaele5075]

Pre-existent Son incarnating in human flesh is "Docetism"? Really? How can you call yourself a "Dr." with such ignorant statements? Docetism holds to the idea that Jesus' flesh wasn't REAL, but a phantom. Hardly the same thing as God incarnating in an ACTUAL human body.

[@jasensargent6176]

He is not ignorant.

[@moosa86]

I think you’re getting unnecessarily hung up on the physical body aspect of docetism instead of the other implications that if Christ was a literal God and only temporarily appeared in human flesh (not a real human) his suffering and life choices wouldn’t be nearly as applicable to us regular (“non-God”) humans…

[@michaele5075]

@@moosa86 Thats a non sequitur.

[@TheProofLady]

@@michaele5075 I don't think you know what that terms means...

[@pilgrimspulpit]

You are a very deceptive person, you just took a small quote out of Erickson's book, disregarded everything else he expounded on (which I just read) just so you could build a straw man and tear it down. You build another straw man in your argument that there were only be 4 interpretations of John 1:1. Why did you fail to mention the very trinitarian view of Jesus that you are attempting to refute? Here it is for you just in-case you are not familiar. [In the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with the Father and the Son was God]. Why did you not mention Ignatius? Ignatius lived in the first century and taught that Jesus was God in the flesh, that he was the creator of all things on earth and in heaven. Also, why do you think that the Word mentioned in verse one is different than the Word mentioned in verse 14? Is it possible that John is talking about the same Word? Finally, how do you explain Paul when he wrote, "He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities - all things were created through him and for him."(Colossians 1:15-17). Seriously, I would love to see how badly you have to destroy the text to make a case for Unitarianism.

[@farainyika2365]

When making a case about a belief or teaching in the Bible, refrain from accusing others of deception. It's useless, divisive and causes arguments. Your questions are valid but cause others to feel attacked when you accuse them of deceit

[@priscillajervey8345]

Question: Does Ignatius know more than God?? Why do you think the word was Jesus. If Jesus was the creator why did he have to prove himself worthy to sit on the thron he created. You sir are the one who is SO misguided!

[@pilgrimspulpit]

@@priscillajervey8345 Why is it that you say He had to prove himself worthy to sit on the throne He created? Can you provide some Scriptural support? I stand on the Word of God, both John and Paul clearly identify Jesus as the Creator. You do not have to accept that. It is interesting to note that of all of the doctrines, the doctrine of the Deity of Christ is the one most attacked by false religions. Muslims accept Jesus but not his deity, Jehovah's Witnesses accept Jesus but not his deity, Unitarians accept Jesus but not his deity. Regarding your question as to why I think Jesus was the Word, its because John called him the Word. Any Greek scholar worth their salt affirms that. As a matter of fact even Bart Ehrman, a Greek scholar that rejects the deity of Christ affirms that John clearly believed Jesus to be God. So if you believe the Apostle John, then you must accept the deity of Christ. Most Unitarians however allow their presuppositions to take precedence over the plain teaching of the Apostles. You believe what you will. If you cannot understand what John and Paul taught concerning Christ then perhaps you do not have eyes to see.

[@priscillajervey8345]

Please oh please tell me where in John 1 doesm it say clearly " in the beginning was the SON"?

[@pilgrimspulpit]

@@priscillajervey8345 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. HE was in the beginning with God…” Who was in the beginning WITH God? The Word, identified as a HE. Now this may be more appropriately translated as “This One was in the beginning with God” [οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν]. Nevertheless, this is clearly a separate entity coexisting with God. This is not an attribute of God or His spoken word. You need to read those kinds of ideas into the text, they are not NATURALLY derived. But who is this Word? John continues to describe who this Word is, saying that all things were made through Him (the Word). John then mentions John the Baptizer as the one that came to bear witness of this entity. How do we know that the Apostle is still talking about the Word? Well because John describes the Word as the one for whom “was life, and the life was the light of men” (v4). Then in verse 9 “This was the true light which gives light to every man”. John continues to talk about this entity all the way through verse 13. Then If we just continue to read what John is writing and not take his words out of context, we see that the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us” in verse 14. This Word is Jesus. Now Unitarians are not well known for sound exegesis, because you cannot properly exegete Scripture as a whole and arrive at a Unitarian God. You see John taught that all things were made through Jesus (the Word), “All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.”(John 1:3) Paul taught the same thing about Jesus, “For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him” (Colossians 1:16). Now if you are a really bad exegete, you can read a bunch of stuff into the text that is not there, this is called eisegesis. And in doing so you might be able to convince a few people that Jesus, as the Word, did not exist with the Father since the beginning of time. That He is not eternally divine, and that He is not the one through whom all things were created. This kind of teaching comes straight out of the pit of Hell. Remember, the Devil uses Scripture to mislead people by distorting its true meaning. This is exactly what Unitarians are doing and this is why I am so passionately opposed to their heretical teachings.

[@ZinduZatism]

Excellent, the Gospel of John is a mess, and Trinitarian made it worse.

[@MulunaLewi]

It's definitely not a "mess" you impudent little expletive

[@petrusjean-baptiste2232]

Shalom! Why not become Muslim?

[@theguyver4934]

Why not we mind our own business

[@alexanderrigby6917]

Because the god of the Quran is pagan. The moon god that has 3 daughters. Allahs emblem is the sickle moon and the sun. And his pedophile prophet married a six year old girl. Islam is a religion of yhe sword and it's doctrine is false. And furthermore are blinded to the truth. Islam is founded from the doctrines of Babylon. In the same way the trinity is founded and instigated from Babylon. Which has influenced the Persians, Greeks and Romans. Pagan Rome became Papal Rome. Have a good look and open your eyes. For there is only one Elohim. Yahweh. Not pagan allah. And one Lord Yahshua, the Son of the living God. HalleluYah.

[@moosa86]

We Muslims would lovingly accept them but truth is they might not understand Islam and/or agree with it. Truth be told, they already have a valid scripture in the New Testament and valid covenant with God (per the NT and Quran).

[@johnspartan98]

Because the Koran is inspired by men who sought out demons to inspire and entertain their most carnal instincts.

[@MrClawson99]

”look at me im smarter than 2000 years of church history”

[@jesusisthechristthesonofgod]

history or heresy?

[@randallwittman2720]

2000 years of roman empire in union with corrupted church. All blind being led by Satan

[@claudiozanella256]

No triune God exists. According to the Trinity doctrine the Son of God is almighty. However, it can be easily verified from the gospels that this statement is false: the Son of God - on the contrary - is NOT almighty. The miracles are in reality always made by the Father (see the Lazarus' resurrection). Hence, the Trinity doctrine states falsehood, in other terms is false. But of course: in the universe there is place for only ONE omnipotent person! Two omnipotent persons would be limiting and conflicting each other and therefore not really be ALLmighty. The reality is different: Jesus WAS THE ALMIGHTY GOD in a very remote past. The only difference from before is that He is now like a normal man since He FORSOOK his power. The almighty God therefore is ONLY in that past and therefore "no one ever saw God". However, from that past God is able to REACH US here in the LIMITED FORM of a spirit "God is a spirit". For example when you have someone on the phone, you can say that he is present in your room "in the limited form of a spirit" since you can talk to him, but you cannot touch him: he is absent. That all is a kind of "workaround" since the almighty God cannot be directly here, indeed "the world has not known you".

[@johnspartan98]

You started out great and then you said Jesus was almighty god in some remote past? Jesus was never ALMIGHTY GOD, not in any remote past or anytime. Jesus was begotten and born. He was in YHWH's foreknowledge and predestined for glory from eternity....just as all believers. The scriptures do not lie.

[@claudiozanella256]

@@johnspartan98 It's not 100% sure that Jesus HAD BEEN the Father, but most probably is what happened: 1. Jesus INHERITED the Reign of God "The Father loves the Son and has GIVEN ALL THINGS into His hand." 2. indeed Jesus is the ABSOLUTE MASTER of heaven, the ONLY KING, not the Father! "The Father judges no man, but has TURNED OVER ALL JUDGMENT to the Son." (Jesus decides, not the Father!) 3. since Jesus "inherited" this means that the Father would be MISSING: "...ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the RIGHT HAND OF POWER and appearing in the clouds of heaven." (only the POWER - a thing - is with Jesus) 4. Jesus confirms that the Father is missing ("nobody has seen God at any time") ("the world has not seen you") 5 Indeed God is here only in the LIMITED form of a spirit ("God is a spirit") ("spirits" are always persons in a limited form, something is missing) 6. from the previous points two possibilities arise: either 1. the Father is AWAY, or 2. Jesus HAD BEEN that almighty Father. 7. Jesus provides a heavy hint that He indeed HAD BEEN the Father: " He who has seen me has seen the Father", "I am in the Father and the Father in me". Thus, "SON" only means that He derives from the Father, He is not an actual Son. God having actual sons is indeed nonsensical. He "derives" in that He doesn't have any OWN power any longer, indeed He sits next to the "power of God".

[@breambo3835]

This is the same old Arian heresy from the 4th century. This guy is a cultist. The trinity started in the Old Testament with the first three verses of the bible, Father, Spirit and Word.

[@TheKingdomOfGodIsAtHand]

stop lying. Jesus himself says his Father is the only true God, and that his Father is his God.

[@AstariahJW]

@@TheKingdomOfGodIsAtHand yea jesus doesnt contradict his own teachings.

[@trumenfreight6055]

@@TheKingdomOfGodIsAtHand the Father himself blesses and saves Yahuwah in Psalm 23 and 24. In Psalm 45 Elohim establishes the throne of Elohim. This other person called Elohim is enthroned that means he is the king that rules for God ie. the Messiah. The frame of thought that Christ has in John 17 is against the gods of the nations. The claim that the God of Israel is the one true God is not an indictment of the "angel" that Jacob and David prayed to (Gen 48 and Psa 35). In other words, claiming that Yahuwah is the one true God was done in the OT while the OT revealed that God sent an Angel that was worshiped and prayed to as God. The statement of Christ in John 17 is against the gods of the nations. That is how the old testament uses that phraseology. The Unitarian reading of this contradicts how the OT uses this language.

[@moosa86]

According to you was Christ an “Arian?” *John 8:40* "but now you are trying to kill *ME, A MAN* who has told you the truth that *I HEARD FROM GOD.* This is not what Abraham did." *John 5:37* "And *THE FATHER WHO SENT ME* has himself testified on my behalf. You have never heard his voice or seen his form," *John 12:44* "Then Jesus cried aloud: “Whoever believes in me believes not in me but in *HIM WHO SENT ME."* *John 5:30* *”I CAN DO NOTHING ON MY OWN.* As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek to do not my own will but the will of *HIM WHO SENT ME."* *John 6:38* "for I have come down from heaven, *NOT TO DO MY OWN WILL,* but the will of *HIM WHO SENT ME."* *John 14:10* "Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you *I DO NOT SPEAK ON MY OWN;* but *THE FATHER WHO DWELLS IN ME DOES HIS WORKS."* *John 7:16* "Then Jesus answered them, *”MY TEACHING IS NOT MINE* but his who sent me." *John 14:28* "You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I am coming to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, because *THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I."* *Mark 10:18* So Jesus said to him, *”Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.*

[@breambo3835]

@@moosa86 It’s obviously clear that you have no understanding of the doctrine of the Trinity at all. None of the verses mentioned are a problem. In the beginning.. the Word was with God and the Word was God. The Word (God) became flesh and dwelt among us, Matt 8,9 Jesus was worshiped. John 20:28 Jesus was called God 1 Tim 3:16 God was manifest in the flesh.