508: No More Roe? & the New Scandal of the Evangelical Mind with Mark Noll

[@salimapeacejoy]

As a black woman who does not believe in abortion, I do think there is more to come. Look at some of the things they brought up when the conformation of Ketanji Brown. I see through the left and the right and both sicken me and as a person of color in this culture who just turned 50 last year, it's frightening the hatred many of these people who claim to be Christians has toward others. I'm one of the others and so are my black husband and my black son and daughter. Maybe it is just being paranoid, I don't know, but it does not feel good for my children's future in this Nation at this time if we allow Christian Nationalists to take over in government. I find it so hypocritical that they will fight for that unborn child who is innocent and yet the poor woman who gives her child life they don't care for that child and use the excuse that the poor will always be with us.

[@susanrichardson2139]

I sadly agree with all you are saying - Republicans always play the long game.

[@joannejenkins7272]

I totally agree. I have many white Christian friends that sit in their pristine white worlds and don't see the truth. Sadly 😭 they choose not to.

[@willrobinson1229]

This 👆

[@bethprather9241]

I absolutely agree with you. I taught school many years and I know sadly we have so many kids in America that need parents, need food, need nutrition. Need support #### Yes pro life . But until those same politicians or Christians that we haven't heard this battle cry in awhile.. But are absolutely all in.. Actually care for those we already have.. in America now. I dont believe them either..

[@TheMister123]

Skye keeps saying this, but it's wrong: Yes, most European countries don't allow abortion **for any reason** after week 15 (or whatever), but there is quite a bit of leeway given for the life and health of the mother, as well as for severe disability of the child. And "life and health of the mother" quite explicitly includes her MENTAL HEALTH. Furthermore, re: the so-called overreaction of the left, many of those rights that those on the left fear will be taken away are ALREADY being discussed. Just one example: Sen. Marsha Blackburn has stated that she wants her State of Tennessee to prohibit unmarried heterosexual couples from having access to birth control.

[@jacobvardy]

Yeah, to be charitable to Skye, maybe he was looking at the text of the law, not the operation. Where i live the "health and welfare of the woman" is interpreted so liberally that many people are shocked to discover that abortion is still technically illegal. And the overwhelming majority would be horrified by the idea of restricting access to abortion.

[@SandyKH]

As an American living in Denmark, later abortions are rare and for medical reasons, with agreement of 2 "Supervisor doctors" have to agree that it is the best option. In fact, you have to get approval from a higher up just to get an amniocantesis... and every midwife I came in contact with strongly discouraged those.

[@jdtreharne]

No, Marsha Blackburn did not say that.

[@calebpeterson3117]

@@jdtreharne What did Marsha Blackburn say?

[@shirleyfargo455]

When do we begin to talk about a man’s responsibility in this issue?

[@KeithBerry]

Agreed. A sperm is a potential life, so if masturbation is frowned upon by the American church's interpretation of Scripture, then can it also be considered murder? If so, then is it legislatable?

[@shirleyfargo455]

@@KeithBerry Thank you for your response. You have brought up an interesting issue I didn’t think of. I was thinking more about a woman being impregnated and the man can move on without any responsibility. A woman must deal with pregnancy, pain, rearing the child, cost of child birth and the man can give up rights and free to move on with his life. Also, there is a real issue when women must make an appointment, drive to a doctor, get a prescription for birth control, go to the pharmacy to get the birth control, but a man can go to any drug store or supermarket and purchase birth control. Seems a bit biased. I certainly am for life, but there are many complexities to this issue.

[@KeithBerry]

@@shirleyfargo455 you're absolutely right and there is so much more than what you've correctly stated that the woman often bears alone when caring for a child that goes into the thinking about birthing the child to begin with. It really is overwhelming regardless if she has support or not. I don't believe it is just or righteous for men to be excluded from this whole abortion discussion. Regardless if you're "Pro-life" (for real...womb-to-tomb) or just "Pro-birth" (which I think most evangelicals really are), men have to be accountable for our part. Scripture teaches in 1 Tim. 5:8 that one who doesn't provide for his household is worse than an unbeliever, so it would be wise for the church to consider how we hold men accountable for creating life. We shouldn't give men a pass (especially men in the church) who have gotten a woman pregenant and doesn't fullfill his duty to provide, nor should we try to soften the judgement of Scripture based on his actions by demonizing the woman by saying she tried to trap him or by slut-shaming her. I believe Jesus can forgive the man for his actions, but that doesn't absolve him from his responsibility to care or and provide for his household...even if he doesn''t want the child. Perhaps we haven't considered how we sanction and legitimize the infidelity of men because we can't see the evidence of pregancy while demonizing women because we can see the evidence of pregenancy. When we (the church) allow a man to be a sorry Chirstian and not protect women who bear the weight of his sorriness, then we can't be surprised when the witness of the church is called into question when those same sorry men become leaders in the church.

[@Ericviking2019]

Exactly!!!

[@Ericviking2019]

@Michael Ward sperm provider

[@brucee8332]

Jerry Falwell, sr., also affirmed Roe when it happened. The change happened when SEGREGATION ACADEMIES were threatened with taxatation. SEGREGATION did not seem like a great Christian cause, so Paul Weyrich suggested ABORTION in 1078.

[@filminspector6775]

u mean 1978 right?

[@hapennysparrow]

Bingo. Thus is nothing more than a strategy to bait their hook to reel in Christian votes. If they were pro- life, they would advocate for a strong social safety net to enable the woman and her child to live with dignity. Making abortion unnecessary would go a long way to curtail the procedure. A win win.

[@patrickc3419]

As a Reformed Christian, I highly discourage anyone from taking anything seriously that Jerry Falwell said or taught.

[@Fallacyfinder]

I thought he wasnt an example to follow?

[@patrickc3419]

@@Fallacyfinder Jerry Falwell??? Definitely not. I personally don’t know anyone who is genuinely saved that takes (took) he or his son seriously. Some really biblically sound men to follow would be John MacArthur, Voddie Baucham, Paul Washer, Alistair Begg, Emilio Ramos, Conrad Mbewe, Steve Lawson, Al Mohler, Joel Beeke & Sinclair Ferguson. BTW I dig your KZbin name 😁

[@missrobin2088]

15:40 I would like Skye to cite any legitimate source that suggests people want unlimited unrestricted abortion at 8.5 months gestation. I don't believe that's a thing unless it's a life or death situation. At 8.5 months, the baby can be delivered healthy. Also at 8.5 months, as happened with a friend of mine, mom can develop preeclampsia, and the baby can (and did, in my friend's case) die.

[@missrobin2088]

@Michael Ward Outside life or death, no I don't. I'm surprised it's as high at 19%. In my entire 56 years of life on this planet, I've know exactly 1 person who felt this way. Thank you for your response.

[@bocaccio5]

There is considerable confusion about laws that allow for abortion throughout an entire pregnancy. These laws were not created with a view toward advocating late-term abortion; rather, they are premised on the recognition that women and doctors may need to make difficult decisions even late in a pregnancy and that those decisions should not be criminalized.

[@TheMister123]

Basically, late abortions don't really exist. At that point it's called childbirth. If the child is viable, it's fine. No one seeks out an abortion that late unless the scenario is absolutely dire for the child, who was absolutely wanted. It should be available and a decision between the mother and doctor.

[@bethrossiter1857]

Micheal Ward what people believe should be available is not what is at issue. we all believe something about abortion. and to equate "several thousand abortions a year past 21 weeks" with 39.5 weeks, or in your words "8.5 month abortions" is even more of a straw man. please see the rest of the podcast

[@hapennysparrow]

I believe abortion should not be made illegal, but rather unnecessary. What is needed is a much stronger safety net, so that both the mother and child can thrive. The furor over abortion is an issue that the Republican Reich and the Religious Right Evangelical leaders have used as bait on the hook to reel in Christian votes. To be pro life means to provide for the welfare of all citizens. I was abandoned by my former husband, left with five young children to raise on my own, one of whom was adopted. Without the social services provided, we would have been destitute. The argument that the church should step in to help is ridiculous. The church I attended accused me of being the guilty party, (God hating divorce), and my condition a result a lack of faith blah blah blah. I was called a welfare queen living off the taxpayer's dime. Absurd argument. I had five children seven years if age

[@bluespaceman7937]

If the right's celebration at the end of Roe came along with increased economic support for poor mothers and early child care, there would be less polarization. But it's the lack of any real incentive on the Republican side to clearly support and promote any of those things that makes me and many others look with very cynical eyes at this decision.

[@bluespaceman7937]

​@Michael Ward At least I'd be quite positive and open-minded towards it.

[@brucee8332]

@Michael Ward If such a bill were nuanced enough to allow for risk to the mother, both physical and emotional; and rape or incest exceptions also, as well as welfare and health and life quality of the child-to-be, I could see approving it. But again, I see nowhere in the Bible or science where a foetus can be considered a human being.

[@tyron302]

@Michael Ward I would, if it made exceptions for rape, incest, and threats to the life of the mother. You wouldn't need to create an exception for the fear of loss of upward mobility as the other social aspects of the bill would provide support for that

[@hapennysparrow]

Amen. Amen Amen.

[@Fallacyfinder]

The assumption that the government is the solution to helping the poor is rooted in this. Christians do more for the poor and needy than the government. You have to demonstrate that government programs actually help people in the longterm before you assume that thats the solution

[@Joejobass]

Kaitlyn is right on point about the existential arguments on both sides. I was reminded recently that when we ascribe all kinds of evil motives to people we don't even know, we are breaking the commandment against bearing false witness.

[@Fallacyfinder]

The bible calls it sin, read it sometime

[@MrBibliotecario1]

It is worth hanging in for the discussion with Mark Noll. He understands the situation better than Phil, Skye, and Kaitlin. As a Black person, I rarely take comfort in leaving matters pertaining to personal rights to the states. It has been the federal authority, by and large, that has taken the lead in ensuring civil rights for ALL Americans. Along a similar vein - are so few people concerned about establishing theocracy?

[@jahbern]

I know it’s been a year since you posted this, but YES! There are a dozen issues that would not be considered in many states if it weren’t for the federal government. Anyone who knows anything about education knows that the ONLY reason many kids are even allowed to attend school with their peers is because of laws like IDEA, FAPE, Title IX and so many more. My own biracial marriage would have been illegal if it weren’t for the federal government. We cannot take for granted that states will do the right thing.

[@kisslena]

So I’m stuck on the “support to families” that was glossed over at the start of the discussion. Kaitlyn’s tweet was very profound and IS the fundamental reason that abortive measures are decided upon by mothers with few financial resources or safety-nets. I won’t call them “poor”, they may be middle-class. There is NO protection for the health of the mother who can’t afford to amass a huge medical bill for prenatal and delivery care. Her employer will not protect her private sector job- without legal protection. THAT is a fundamental reason that women have fought so long for this level of physical autonomy. So to say banning abortions has little to do with building a social support system…is incorrect, it’s not true. There are abortions that are done for convenience. That needs to stop immediately. Get on birth control or take the morning after pill, or a chemical termination medication. But in most cases that decision is decided under duress-a desperate situation. The American slavery issue has shown us that a symbolic victory is weak and did not eradicate racism currently still existing in the 21st century America. Thank you Skye! Brilliant. AND… chattel slavery African and American- born women uteruses were under government control during that evil system. They had no physical autonomy over themselves and their babies. The disparities from that error (era) have continued to this day. IF All Lives Matter, mean it Christians

[@Fallacyfinder]

Murder is never okay, full stop. Christians are more active in helping people than any other group. This narrative is lazy and untrue

[@Theinternalrewrite]

As much as I feel abortion is a terrible and awful thing for a fetus to have happen to it, I don't feel anywhere in America is ready for abortion to be made illegal. There is not enough provision of resources and services for mothers, children and families as it is, let alone if the number of people needing such resources and services going up. As a result this particular debate will distract from many other changes that need to be made with regard to a minimum living wage, Medicare for all, etc. It's also true that not being able to have an abortion will afflict women rather than men. In this way the law would be, in practical terms, unequal and weighted against the gender which has long been the less privileged and oppressed. Arguments on this issue have some merit. However if those laws were passed that offered more opportunity, help and protections for women that might offset the issue. Paid Maternity Leave anyone? EDIT: I would also like us to think that, even though a woman getting an abortion is sinning and the child is a victim, sinners are victims too. Spare some mercy and forgiveness for those who know not what they do. Jesus wants them to know his love and compassion. Otherwise we seem to be treating them like they are simply evil and it is our job to punish them, imprison them, remove their liberties for being impure. In which case they might be right - that we care more about being anti-choice than being pro-life.

[@JohnThomas-ut3go]

All this 👆 is intentional.

[@jamesthomas12]

If only there were many women centers, crisis centers, church counseling services, non-profit services, and parents willing to adopt, we wouldn't have to resort to killing the "fetus." To your logic, back in the 1940s, you would have said something like "it's a terrible thing what is happening to the Jewish people and I feel bad that they have to go through what they're going through, but I just don't think Europe is anywhere ready to know what to do with all these displaced Jews."

[@Theinternalrewrite]

@@jamesthomas12 I wish you were right about the first part of your comment. I understand the second part of your comment but it is a false equivalency. Ultimately a government needs to take responsibility for those in need of help. Forcing individuals who are already overstretched and under resourced to do it is untenable.

[@jamesthomas12]

@@Theinternalrewrite so there aren’t any resources for women who don’t want their child? That is ridiculous. Within a 35 mile radius in which I live, I can list several. And from personal experience, there are many people who are willing to adopt, who have adopted, and will adopt again.

[@adamrshields]

@@jamesthomas12 but are their resources to help people keep their family together?

[@ShaunCKennedyAuthor]

I'm so glad we have Kaitlyn. She is so on top of these things.

[@jeremymoser7754]

That abortion rates were higher before it was legalized than now points out that the legality or availability of abortion does not affect peoples behaviors. A change in behavior has decreased the use of abortion, like acceptance of mixed race babies and unwed mothers by the "christians" in America.

[@stevenmerritt4960]

It isn't really clear from your post what you are saying about mixed race babies. Are you saying mixed race families are wrong? I honestly can't tell.

[@Xkittyloverr1997]

@@stevenmerritt4960 I read it as the perception of mixed race children has become more positive, therefore decreasing someone's social need to terminate that pregnancy, which is a good thing. Basically the statement as a whole is saying that the circumstances around the pregnancy play a much bigger role in abortion decisions than the availability of abortions

[@melissafollis8281]

I'm pregnant and in Texas. My baby has congenital defects. This isn't a philosophical discussion to me, but life and death. If for some reason I don't birth a live baby, anyone can sue based on the assumption that that I had an abortion. I'm never sure if the information I'm getting from the specialists is accurate because they aren't allowed to say anything that might be perceived as recommending abortion. Our medical expenses are going to be astronomical, and would be prohibitively so if both my husband and I didn't have good-paying jobs. I'm at the point that if I miscarry, my uterus may not empty without medical assistance (D&E), but I may have a hard time finding a medical provider to perform that procedure before I'm at risk of sepsis. I'm morally opposed to abortions for convenience, but pregnancy is complex. There are any number of things that can go wrong. To try to legislate all the potential protections would be astronomically difficult, especially since the people making the laws have already demonstrated ignorance about reproductive medicine. How many women who wanted to birth their babies are we willing to harm in the effort to punish those who want to abort?

[@Justanotherconsumer]

The problem is that politicians are so desperate to make a name for themselves they’re fighting over who can be more “pro-life” and are taking ever more extreme positions to win over single issue voters.

[@pamelamaddox1547]

Evangelicals need to wake up! There is so much more to this issue than just stopping abortions. They just seem to be ignorant of so much. I equate their thinking to that of flat-earthers.

[@jdtreharne]

Nobody can sue for miscarriage

[@Justanotherconsumer]

@@jdtreharne as long as it’s correctly identified as miscarriage. The medical term for a miscarriage is a “spontaneous abortion.” Do you really think the pro-life people with an axe to grind are going to pay attention to medical details? They’ve paid no attention to how medicine works so far, why would they start?

[@geoffhorswood6234]

I have to say that the way the whole abortion issue is being handled is troubling. The same people that want to overturn Roe are the same ones pushing outright bans even in the case of rape and ectopic pregnancies, and the same ones wanting to restrict government help to the poorest women, who will be disproportionately affected by the changes. American postnatal care and support is terrible by comparison to almost any other Western nation, and “pro-life” conservatives are usually the ones most gung-ho to restrict government help to the needy and object to any measures the government might try to take to help lift people out of poverty. There appears to be no attempt to reason with anyone, on either side, just a conviction of our own moral rectitude and that anyone who disagrees is evil incarnate. This will not end well

[@tonyraissa864]

Ectopic pregnancy is not a normal pregnancy. It's means the fertilizer egg is growing in the fallopian tube which is dangerous. If it's not removed the women would bleed to death. It's so horrific that people who are writing these laws somehow didn't know this.

[@geoffhorswood6234]

@@tonyraissa864 I hope it’s from ignorance rather than malicious apathy

[@Fallacyfinder]

Your comment wont age well, so much nuance for murder. Im glad God isnt like you and the Holy Post crew

[@melissafollis8281]

The conservative movement only cares about the unborn because they are perfectly innocent and make no demands. The moment they are born, they can be denied medical coverage, torn from their parents, put in cages, and denied basic needs.

[@jdtreharne]

Would you be okay with a full ban on abortion but with an exception for rape and ectopic pregnancies?

[@laurengarcia1023]

I'm glad you guys addressed this issue. I've been wondering about your take on it. If any issue needs to be nuanced, this one does, and we need to have compassion on all sides. We can disagree and still understand "why" someone believes the way they do and also understand their fears behind the issue and support people in all stages of life. I had a full-term stillbirth because of a random genetic issue I found out about. I chose to let her have as much life as possible. It's hurtful when people on the left talk about my daughter like she wasn't real or valuable because she didn't "Live" according to them. She was alive. I felt her. And it's hard when people on the right don't have compassion for many women who really wanted to be mothers and for various reasons (especially health ones) might really be struggling, and the rhetoric just makes it more hurtful.

[@Fallacyfinder]

Im glad the bible isnt nuanced about murder.

[@complexmindsimpleman6642]

Overreact? When has "state's rights" been a positive experience for vulnerable populations?

[@virginiacrosby4160]

One thing that would help reduce abortion numbers is low cost or free birth control. But you don't hear the church pushing for more women's health clinics to provide those and they want to totally defund Planned Parenthood, which is one of the few places that provides those services. I think Skye is correct. It's all about the victory, and not about providing alternative solutions.

[@GrimdarkKing]

The alternative solution is what the Bible says. If you are not married and ready to have a baby…keep the legs closed for women…and keep it in your pants for men. That’s God’s birth control plan.

[@SandyKH]

While I truly appreciate your takes on this important issue... I am frustrated that you didn't really touch the incest issue. You have rightly said that abortion limitations would hurt low income families... I ask you what chance does a girl molested by her father have, if she can't go locally and get help? Also, I see a myth in Christian circles that says women who get late term abortions have simply decided later in the pregnancy to not be moms. Any mom that was showing (and knew it) wants to be pregnant or have a baby. There is no plot to get pregnant, wait as long as you can and then decide. Something else decides... be it the health of the mother or baby or both. Women won't go through pregnancy without the intention of having a child. I certainly want fewer abortions. The laws in Europe were generally based on viability of the baby back when the law was made. It is fair to say that in Europe the issue was basically settled long ago... apart from a very few countries. I am praying much about this issue for all of America, and for all Christians to really see what is going on, and I'm not sure we do yet.

[@sherycenguyen8593]

"Also, I see a myth in Christian circles that says women who get late term abortions have simply decided later in the pregnancy to not be moms." Yes! This bothers me too! Exactly who are these women at 8.5 months pregnant saying "Hmm, actually I've changed my mind" and then getting abortions?

[@edwinalvarez1619]

This is the type of breakdown of issues that we need especially among us as Christians. This is why channels like the Holy Post is much needed among our media choices.

[@tonyross1965]

I think the conversation was fascinating, and I agree with much of what I heard. However, I don't think the response from some voices on the left about other rights being threatened such as contraceptives, gay marriage, and interracial marriage is overblown. There are serious rumblings from some ultra-conservative politicians that these issues should be "returned to the states", or that these rights are not "enumerated in the constitution". Do not underestimate the desire for power and control that some people have. After all, no one seriously thought that Roe would be overturned, yet here we are.

[@soniaprovard5841]

I couldn’t agree with you more!! I have observed a gradual yet silent push by the Right for giving more & more power to States!! They have an alternate motive for this!!

[@josephgreer8819]

I wouldn't count on pills as always being an option. Just like some states can control what is sold to their residents through the mail (i.e. guns & ammo in California), I believe we will start to see prohibitions on different types of mail-order medications in strong pro-life states.

[@susanrice2146]

As a nurse and was an OB Instructor I would like to clarify your definitions. After fertilization. It’s a zygote, not a baby. Then it’s an embryo, not a baby. Then a fetus for many weeks. Many do not consider it a baby until the age of viability. It’s a potential human being. A potential human baby. But not a baby at the conception.

[@jamesthomas12]

I grieve for every zygote, embryo, fetus, and potential human baby who has been killed in the womb.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

@@jamesthomas12 thee are those that grieve for the children that will never be born because the person who would have been their mother was murdered. It’s OK to grieve for what might have been, but it is not the equivalent of what is.

[@brucee8332]

Of course I wanted to know INSTANTLY what The Holy Post was thinking about The Leaky Draft, but the Holy Spirit's Fruit of Patience was working within me, so I have managed to wait, with "baited breath and muffked oar!"

[@Fallacyfinder]

They're left leaning so their team took a hit, but they have to appear in the middle and not give conservative evangelicals an easy target to attack them with so they needed time to recoup their notes

[@Justanotherconsumer]

@@Fallacyfinder given how toxic and destructive the conservatives have been of late (the failed coups d’etat an easy example), there’s a good reason to be cautious. Losing moderate voices means no chance of having some sort of thoughtful dialogue and it could easily end in violence. I’ve read enough European history to know that Christianity and politics results in not only violence, but truly ugly violence. Ask Magdeburg.

[@Fallacyfinder]

@@Justanotherconsumer If you believe they're moderate I have some land to sell you

[@kathyw7369]

Phil, regarding your comment about people "over-reacting" that contraceptives will be taken away, several years ago, I received a mailing from the Illinois Right to Life Committee that completely opposed legal contraception, including condoms and sterilization surgeries, even for married couples. I'm also disturbed and shocked by how many government officials are fighting for laws even to punish women and girls who've experienced miscarriages.

[@jdtreharne]

I don't believe you

[@kathyw7369]

@@jdtreharne Well, I guess you have the right not to believe the truth. I grew up in a church that supported the Michigan Right to Life Committee, and I financially supported Illinois Right to Life after we moved here . . . .until the year they sent a brochure claiming any and all birth control, even the rhythm method, is evil and should be outlawed. I wrote to ask to be removed from their mailing list, explaining that I don't agree with the stance against all contraceptive methods. I hope the organization has changed its tune since then, but the website doesn't include such details.

[@timvanhaitsma9659]

I appreciate the discussion, but one thing you did not address is the elephant in the room. The Right to Life crowd has bought in completely to the idea that life starts at conception. And that political/philosophical position is what will keep the moderate positions based on science from happening. I think digging into the that idea would be a good second discussion.

[@dckmusic]

If only I was as smart and thoughtful as Kaitlyn at that age. Much respect, Kaitlyn.

[@wmla31]

I’m confused, why did the quickening idea even need to exist, I thought biblical understanding was that life began at conception as evidenced by a multitude of scripture all the way back to Adam and Eve (Gen 4:1)?

[@andyvisuals]

I'm a Bible believing Christian... but I'm not sure there's a multitude of Scripture that says life starts when sperm meets egg... (Where in scripture is there any idea that "conception" as we know it now (medically/scientifically)?) If you have them handy, I'd like to see them!

[@wmla31]

@@andyvisuals Gen 4:1, Gen 16:4 Hosea 9:11, Ruth 4:13, Gen 30:33, Judges 13:3, Luke 1:24, Romans 9:10 to mention just a few, if you have a bible app or a concordance search using the words conceive, conceived, conception etc, try different versions too. I can’t speak to scientific understanding over the ages but the bible is very clear on the pattern/chronology of the these events .. man and woman come together, conception happens, a child is born.

[@trishakoury-stoops2372]

I am pro CHOICE!! This is scary

[@jamesthomas12]

Yes, I am scared as well for every child that is growing in his or her mothers womb while we have people like you advocating for their death.

[@patrickc3419]

@@jamesthomas12 Agreed.

[@complexmindsimpleman6642]

Evangelicals should be known by their actions not the lies they tell about their alleged faith.How can you be for war and death penalties while against abortions and support for vulnerable persons?

[@gingermontalvo4612]

One more objection. "If you have a car, you can access an abortion." No. You need a car, money for gas, maybe a hotel room, likely time off from work, childcare, money for the procedure, and doctors who are actually willing to tell you where you can go out of state. And states like Texas and Idaho are working hard to prevent all this, putting a gag on doctors and trying to criminalize leaving the state for an abortion. Plus, if you are actively hemorrhaging, septic, or otherwise incapacitated due to a pregnancy complication, you may be unable or unsafe to travel.

[@enigma1865]

I use his book The Civil War as a Theological Crisis in my Civil War Era class. Has impacted my students.

[@sarasiu7371]

It’s good to listen first, then think about it, then speak 👍

[@lbamusic]

An interesting discussion, but I hear nothing about Creator God who has sovereignty in the matter of life and death. Does anyone think that a baby that God intends to be born, can be aborted or miscarried??? God is not only the Creator of life, but He also determines (actively or passively) which of those lives are miscarried or aborted before birth. In I Sam.15:3, our same God orders the Ameleks to be completely destroyed - including pregnant women and their fetuses. There are also other Biblical passages where the enemies of Israel were ordered to be killed. Death is absolutely within the sovereignty of God, before birth and after birth. Stop obsessing about abortion, no life God intends to be born could or can be aborted. This includes despots like Hitler, and Saints like Mother Theresa.

[@bluespaceman7937]

You should be careful with that argument, because going by that logic, a partially blind man shouldn't have eye surgery because "God wanted him to be partially blind".

[@lbamusic]

@@bluespaceman7937 Ask the God that you clearly don't believe is Sovereign in human affairs (Matt 6:10), about my logic...

[@esoptron3983]

Yeah that makes total sense, that's why God wasn't mad at all when Abel was murdered by his brother. Hahaha, it's not like God cares about justice or the premature ending of life. 😅

[@lbamusic]

@@esoptron3983 God's justice is superior to ours, and killing and murder is also different by God's standards. Don't speak for God, you will lose that battle. What you call murder is clearly not how God considers it. Is a miscarriage an example of God murdering or killing the unborn? Why aren't you mourning those and outlawing what God does?

[@esoptron3983]

@@lbamusic Miscarriage is a natural phenomenon caused by living in a broken world, equivalent to being struck by lightning. Neither of these things imply direct intervention by God. Also God isn't the one performing an abortion anymore than He murdered Abel. If you think Cain had responsibility for his actions (Genesis 4:6), then we do as well. Using sovereignty to justify doing wickedness is absurd.

[@madamepasteure]

Man, that interview with Mark Noll was great!!

[@melissafollis8281]

It's not hysteria to discuss how this overturning of case precedence can affect other rulings.

[@stephenhicks6054]

they could decide to wait and rehear the case because there's a new justice coming on board and they might want to get her thoughts or her being a woman could make appearances different. 😮 Bottom line: put your left hand up, put your right hand up, shake it all around and slap yourselves sane., or put common sense into play.

[@jonathanfriar7767]

I continue to appreciate the presentation of the liberal and conservative points of view on the issues. However, I still cringe at the argument that both sides are crazy. Yes, the left has a fringe with loud voices. However, the left fringe doesn't run the local, state, and national government and its leaders. From the right, its fringe passes voting legislation, attempts to rewrite history, creates boogeyman legislation such as CRT, (possibly) overturns 50 year SCOTUS precedent with basically 2 politically stolen court picks, attempts to overthrow our government, and elects Donald Trump; one of the worst presidents in history. Not to mention, the leaders on the right are held hostage by a powerful media bubble with dedicated radio, TV, and internet channels. The both sides are bad argument is simply not a balanced argument.

[@Tupelo927]

Hear, hear! NC Representative Madison Cawthorn has extremist views which he vocalizes anytime a microphone is near, including on the House floor. Thanks to him, "tally whacker" -- a colloquial slang term for penis-- is in the congressional record. I'll not list his myriad lies, improprieties, slander, & legal issues here; it's all in the public record. Despite his attempted stolen valor, trollish behavior, duplicity, or recent run-ins with law enforcement, the GOP didn't censure him or withdraw re-election support until... Cawthorn claimed he had been invited to "sexual get-togethers" by lawmakers he _admired._ He also claimed he had witnessed casual illegal drug use. Only then did Kevin McCarthy give him a private dressing down & publicly criticize Cawthorn. _That_ was the bridge too far for GOP leadership & voters in North Carolina. Cawthorn's term ends in January 2023. He experienced a life-changing tragic accident at only 18. I sincerely hope he receives counseling & guidance from loved ones & a qualified therapist. He's an immature young man struggling with quite a burden.

[@PhilTomson]

I'm not only tweeting less, I deactivated my twitter account. Feels good to not be in the constant outrage.

[@lynchfam100]

Me Too!

[@tiggerbox514]

i'm not from the us but looking at the behaviour of some evangelical quarters i honestly worry about how they might with the aid of government, set them selves up as a proto-government institutions, monetise the poor, make them dependent and gain not influence but power - call me cynical, I'd rather the government take the lead.

[@Tupelo927]

Re: German language SCOTUS case: Meyer v. Nebraska 1923 The state of Nebraska passed the foreign language instruction ban in 1919. It was referred to as the Siman Act.

[@colleennikstenas4921]

I disagree, Phil - what is going on in Fla in regards to people who are gay? so there are laws about to go into effect that will start to have such a possible suit.

[@colleennikstenas4921]

Also disagree that the removal of abortion availability would make people take more precautions. Teens and young adults, and people in general don't think long term often enough, so not likely. I am concerned that the restrictions some states have decided on, might lead to the loss of contraception as well. And so many people will be punished for doing med care for it, and to prevent it, and for all circumstances, and healthcare professionals will be danged in both ways.

[@madamepasteure]

I couldn't wait to hear what you have to say on Roe v Wade!!

[@susanrice2146]

“Abortion rates will fall”. Nope. Legal, safe procedures for abortion will fall. Women will always get what they need. To the point of self-harm.

[@jamesthomas12]

Yes, it’s called sin. People love the darkness more than the light. People in rebellion towards God will continue to do what they want including killing children in the womb.

[@salimapeacejoy]

I do believe they want to overturn all the above and they will overturn Thomas when they get finished using him. Just my opinion!

[@salimapeacejoy]

@Michael Ward If they get their way soon they won't need Thomas nor any other person of color on the Supreme Court. Remember the story in the Bible about Queen Esther when Haman plotted the destruction of the Jews and Esther's uncle Mordecai wanted her to go before the King and Esther was hesitant. What did her uncle tell her? Then Mordecai commanded to answer Esther, Think not with thyself that thou shalt escape in the king's house, more than all the Jews. Esther 4:13 KJV So if the Christian Nationalist get their way they're not just going to come for ordinary black people like me, but they will also clean house in the high places and won't have need for any person of color whom has fooled themselves into thinking they're apart of them.

[@salimapeacejoy]

@Michael Ward they can change and amend laws and he could be impeached.

[@salimapeacejoy]

@Michael Ward, you say that like I'm a Democrat. Both parties are controlled by corporate elites and both parties are full of racism and neither party work in my best interest.

[@debracrockett5386]

I would like to get the panel's reaction to Numbers 5:27 in which there appears to be allowance for abortion if the wife is suspected of unfaithfulness.

[@76JStucki]

How do you figure? That verse and passage have nothing at all to do with babies, or pregnancy, or terminating a pregnancy. It’s essentially a trial by ordeal, wherein the guilty becomes ill as a result. Nothing to do with pregnancy.

[@debracrockett5386]

@@76JStucki, the Num. 5:11-31 passage in which there is suspicion of adultery, here's one commentator's explanation of vs. 46-47: "...tn TEV takes the expression “your thigh” as a euphemism for the genitals: “cause your genital organs to shrink.”(v.46). In vs. 47, he says "...Most commentators take the expressions to be euphemisms of miscarriage or stillbirth, meaning that there would be no fruit from an illegitimate union. The idea of the abdomen swelling has been reinterpreted by NEB to mean “fall away.” If this interpretation stands, then the idea is that the woman has become pregnant, and that has aroused the suspicion of the husband for some reason. R. K. Harrison (Numbers [WEC], 111-13) discusses a variety of other explanations for diseases and conditions that might be described by these terms. He translates it with “miscarriage,” but leaves open what the description might actually be. Cf. NRSV “makes your uterus drop, your womb discharge.” The above information is taken from Bible.org, which has an online NET Bible and is a reputable site.

[@jofantioch]

The church has celebrated the conception of Jesus, Mary, and St. John the Baptist for 2000years. The celebration of the Annunciation predates the first celebrations of Christmas by centuries. I really wish you had a Catholic scholar on your panel.

[@adamrshields]

I think what we are doing is celebrating the announcement of those two because they were done by angels not the actual conception. (But I agree with the request for other perspectives.)

[@Justanotherconsumer]

We’ve celebrated the prophecies that predicted His birth and death as well. Conception is a major milestone - it’s the only part of the process biologically where dad matters. That said, in the heavily patriarchal societies of the period, focusing on the only part of the process men matter for might say more about the societies than about the biology.

[@robertguidry2168]

It is interesting to note that we knew more because of science where it opened up questions about when personhood occurs.

[@jamesthomas12]

Being a part of a local church, working with pro-life organizations and abolitionists, I do not know a single person who wants to abolish abortion so that God can "bless" America. Can't say the same for everyone, but as for me and my people, we want abortion abolished to put an end to the legal activity of human sacrifice in our country.

[@jamesthomas12]

@Mara Hanson both men and women who rape or molest should be held accountable to the highest degree. Pregnancy due to rape is obviously real. Christians should be more than willing to walk alongside, provide counseling, resources, etc to care for the mother and the child. Nothing justifies shedding innocent blood. Rape is barbaric and so is Abortion.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

Is making it illegal good enough, though? It’s the caring about the legal status as the end goal that marks it as less than… complete.

[@jamesthomas12]

@@Justanotherconsumer I think we would all desire that no one would have an abortion. However, we live in a fallen world and people will continue to commit horrific evil. It doesn’t mean we just dismiss it and allow it to be legal. If we have the mindset that people will just keep having abortions whether it’s illegal or not, then why don’t we allow rape to be legal? We must outlaw abortion as we do with many other acts of evil.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

@@jamesthomas12 criminalizing it without addressing the root causes of why it happens will just be an excuse to abuse the least of these. I have zero respect for anyone who doesn’t even acknowledge the harm these laws cause.

[@mikemestas9835]

yea

[@JesusLovesBest]

So...a couple of months later, are people over-reacting? Are some under-reacting? As a Christian I'm even against IUDs, I'm not against barrier method or trying to plan by the "Rythmn" method. I also am worried crazies will try and force woman to carry tubal pregnancies to term. (which is death of both baby and mother) There seems to be a justification for strong concern the Right wants to ban birth control- they don't define openly what's acceptable or not for birth control. Will ER doctors soon be banned from giving rape victims the morning after pill to bring on menses?? There IS that much hate and ignorance these days!

[@nbud7718]

While I am in general a secular left-wing fan of the show, I was very turned off by your pro-life/anti-abortion talk. Everything Mark Noll said was fantastic, he’s great.

[@pmgddm]

I'm not hopeful that we'll see a political/government/reasonable solution on this (or most other issues, for that matter). If you solve a problem you get an attaboy/girl, but you can forever raise money on an issue.

[@jgunn03]

I don't think men should talk about limits on abortion. The u impregnable telling the pregnant what to do about pregnancy falls on deaf ears here. Let's be honest. If men could get pregnant, abortion wouldn't have moral implications. It's telling that the people in charge of the laws (overwhelmingly men) make a bunch of restrictions and rules to maintain and procure life right up until birth. After that, all bets are off (think organ donation). I think we can all guess why this is. Furthermore, what the neck are you two men monopolizing a convo about pregnancy, over talking the only person on the panel who has the slightest chance of getting pregnant?! You done completely lost this pro-choicer with your actions.

[@filminspector6775]

THANK YOU!!!! There should have been a pro-choice person on this episode to help balance out the pro-life 1-sided argument bs they had. Its ridiculous

[@queensthiefGen]

Is it so difficult to hear three people discuss a conviction of theirs that differs from a conviction of yours?

[@filminspector6775]

@@queensthiefGen no I think they should have had a differing opinion to balance it all out

[@queensthiefGen]

Sure, I just mean--it's their podcast, they have a typical format that doesn't include guests, and they're having a nuanced discussion that happens to fall on one side this time. Especially considering that this is an Evangelical podcast, it's not surprising that they're all pro-life. Personally, I found it really helpful to hear pro-life Christians talk about abortion in a nuanced way. Not every video needs to be a debate. If you want to stop listening, that's fine, but it sounds like you want to stop listening the second your viewpoint isn't represented.

[@filminspector6775]

@@queensthiefGen ok I guess your right I’m just personally conflicted on this issue myself. I just personally wanted to see more from a non pro life perspective. I’m gonna shut up now

[@pamelamaddox1547]

Come on Texas and Florida!! Let's put the burden on the mal

[@kicsms_science3729]

The disagreement is not over whether a fetus is alive or whether a fetus is human - those *are* science questions, and I've never heard anyone content otherwise. The disagreement (regardless of people talking about it as thought it's about life or humanity) is whether a fetus has the rights of personhood. That is certainly not a science question. Christians who are opposed to abortion may think of it as obvious ("of course it's a person), but it's not particularly obvious to people who aren't part of those religious traditions. FWIW, we still don't know when the soul enters the body (also not a science question).

[@JohnThomas-ut3go]

I never understood the need to define God by the 'miracles' done. The God that at a thought brings things into creation fully formed. All-knowing, all-powerful means that the laws man discovers about nature God understands as if it is his nature. Gravity, relativity, evolution, etc; none of this goes against God. God could have easily sparked the process that brought us, intentionally, to this place as he could create it outright in an instant. There is a proselytization technique of using a painting to prove creationism. Their has to be a creator of a painting right? To use a similar example is to look at fractal art. The artist doesn't create the art. The artist sets in motion mathematical algorithms that create the workk of art. If man can create in this way why couldn't an all knowing, all powerful God.

[@bethprather9241]

The end of his statement is so true. I still hear a lot.. This world is getting worse and worse and this is Satan's world...as in the verse , how rhe devil is the father of those world.. well. God made this world. We live hear now. We need to be closer to God and educated too!! Huge fan of education at a college or secondary level. My dad always pushed it. The older I become the more I see in my family and others around me. Yes, they are smart in many ways.. The entire Trump as president and religious mess and fog and conspiracy theories belief.. Is very, very a high percentage of those without a college degree. Huge! It is amazing how much of a difference it makes.

[@Alverage]

Two comments: 1) Yes I was waiting for the commentary from the holy post on this subject 2) If the church were going to care for these women in need of terminations wouldn’t there be more incentive to do that before the law changed? At a point in time where someone’s mind could be changed and therefore change the outcome? If one of the outcomes becomes illegal then logistically less effort is required for the same effect. All this to say, if the church were going to help in a practical way wouldn’t that have happened already? (As an aside, I am not American, so my opinions may not match the reality you see. Mine are influenced significantly by the media)

[@melissafollis8281]

Yes, if the church actually cared about the people having the babies, they would have already helped. But we treat poverty as though it's a moral failing. That's why we don't have affordable Healthcare, affordable housing, parental leave, etc. They want to dictate what everyone else can do without taking responsibility for the ramifications of those decisions.

[@2serve4Christ]

SPEAKING AGAINST ABORTION, someone has said, "No one should be denied access to the great feast of life," to which the rebuttal, obviously enough, is that life isn't much of a feast for children born to people who don't want them or can't afford them or are one way or another incapable of taking care of them and will one way or another probably end up abusing or abandoning them. And yet, and yet. Who knows what treasure life may hold for even such children as those, or what treasures even such children as those may grow up to become? To bear a child even under the best of circumstances, or to abort a child even under the worst-the risks are hair-raising either way and the results incalculable. How would Jesus himself decide, he who is hailed as Lord of Life and yet who says that it is not the ones who, like an abortionist, can kill the body we should fear, but the ones who can kill body and soul together the way only the world into which they are born can kill unloved, unwanted children (Matthew 10:28)? There is perhaps no better illustration of the truth that in an imperfect world there are no perfect solutions. All we can do, as Luther said, is sin bravely, which is to say, (a) know that neither to have the child nor not to have the child is without the possibility of tragic consequences for everybody, yet (b) be brave in knowing also that not even that can put us beyond the forgiving love of God. - Originally published in "Whistling in the Dark" (Frederick Buechner)

[@barryward8177]

It’s a very difficult decision to have an abortion or not to an abortion but the discussion didn’t really address the trigger laws which would make it murder or that individuals could be sued if they aid someone to get an abortion. Leaving it up to the states also gets a variety of responses from election to election. So this issue will be around for a long time. The underside of the issue is who will be responsible for these unwanted children the state has forced the woman to have or look after their health care if the pregnancy is difficult and the woman can’t sustain employment. Would that be the church?

[@TheEmmanuelN]

Few Qs on abortion topic 1) Who's making abortion case? A. God B. Christian 2) What are the charges for a woman caught doing abortion? 3) We, (Christians) If our daughters caught doing abortion are we going to report them to authorities after we found out they have done so in order for us to complete this righteous path?

[@Fallacyfinder]

Abortion is murder, elephant in the room

[@TheEmmanuelN]

@@Fallacyfinder Your response is a (conclusion) which makes it sound like you're the decider to those who do not believe the same way you do. If you think abortion is murder 1) Why then do you think it has anything to do with God or Christianity? 2) Does God condemn murders? 3) Was Christianity formed to go after murders, charge and send them to jail? 4) What's the goal of the gospel? 5) To whom is the gospel of Christ meant for? A. The lost, brokenhearted B. Or the righteous 6) Did Jesus die on the cross so Christians could ask supreme court to charge a woman who's found guilty of abortion? *I don't think you understood my question. There are things require, critical thinking, wisdom and a lots of prayers.

[@bman11714]

Skye: “We are called to care for these women, community, kids.” Question for the 3 hosts: What are you actively doing to care for these people?

[@GrimdarkKing]

Yeah. For real. My guess is that the idea of “caring for these women” is code for “being willing to outsource the care of these women to the government”.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

@@GrimdarkKing yes, the government is a very reasonable way to handle it - lots of transparency, supposed to be for the public good, etc… Caring for others includes building roads and hospitals too. This “it only counts if you adopt kids yourself” motivates a lot of very shallow and performative actions that may not be in the best interest of kids or their families.

[@jhuh24]

I can't say I agree with your question here. They could already be committed to causes for helping women or they could be committed to other causes behind the scenes. Are you asking this question as a critique of them on this subject? I mean, I get it but I don't think it is plausible to expect people even with a platform to be actively involved with every cause they talk about, just in general I mean to answer it a little bit, with the Holy Post alone: They are spreading the word about this issue and other issues pretraining to women in the church. They look critically at American church culture, and they analyze a lot of the chaos going on. They provide a space of discussion for believers or anybody who don't agree with the direction some of American church culture is headed.

[@bman11714]

@@jhuh24 Here’s what you see with a lot of progress Christian speakers today (especially those fresh out of college): They tend to adhere to a Leftist belief that the government should have lots of programs to help societal problems. History shows that the government is bad at constructive social programs as they tend to just apply money toward the problem. It’s easy to get on a platform with tens of thousands of followers and advocate for the needy by calling for more government intervention at the expense of the taxpayers. The question was posed as a challenge to the hosts. Maybe they are doing things behind the scenes - and I really hope they are. But the idea of simply pushing for more government programs is rarely the answer.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

@@bman11714 as was mentioned in the video, the opposition to government aid programs has a lot of roots in anti-black racism. The concept that people would actually get help and lift themselves out of poverty is pretty frightening to those who live in fear of retaliation for the things they know they have done.

[@karen1blaine2]

Regarding the interview and the observation that there are some good and rigorous academic schools in the group of "Christian colleges" and why isn't the critical thinking and intellectual approach trickling down into the churches? Have you looked around??? The students go to college and do not return to their churches! If they do return to a church, it is often not an evangelical one.

[@brucee8332]

May I suggest everyone listen to the recent COMMONWEAL podcast, with two Roman Catholic women's opinions relative to abortion, and womrn's health.

[@zacharysiple629]

25:58 Just keeping this here.

[@bethprather9241]

The birth control issue you stated on the left/ left.. The very first verse almost every Christian or evangelical and I am a Christian but they will give you the Jeremiah verse about He knew me when I was in my mother's womb. David states it too. Both old testament. But Paul very much states it along with several predestination vesrses. Well raised a southern Baptist predestination preachers always lost their jobs if they preached it Because of John 3 :16... So if they use that verse then whose to say you are to use birthcontrol and I have read this in prolife states with a 6 weeks etc.limited. As in why? Or how? Do they get that. Plus update. It is August 2022. It did pass and a 10 year old raped by a father or uncle already had to be publized and go to another state.. States had provisions that totally closed it all.. When reading why on many religious post of zero abortions. IT was back to if a ferilized egg implants in any girl, women etc.. rape or incest that is predested and God wants that.. So .. Yes God does give us all gifts He knows all.. But rape and incest aren't from God becauae to me they are pure evil..Therefore not my choice..

[@sharonguerra7440]

I find it frustrating that so many "Christians" are just FINE with religious authoritarianism -- as long as it's THEIR beliefs being enforced (remember all the manufactured panic about "Sharia Law"?). Talk to some people of other religions and you might find that this is a huge religious freedom issue, as well as all the other problems this opens up. Also, as someone else put it, under many of these state laws, women have fewer rights than a corpse. Personally, I am most horrified by the lack of exceptions in these laws for incest and rape. As if the woman's life and health and mental health meant absolutely nothing.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

Also, for what it’s worth, looking at the history of Decree 770 in Romania is useful. Birth rates spiked after a near-complete ban on birth control and abortion… for a few years. It didn’t last. That’s kind of a nightmare version, but it’s a piece of history.

[@brucee8332]

The Roman Church has only crlebrated the Conception, first of Mary, thrn of John, since the 18thbor 19th Cen.

[@Ericviking2019]

Skye, we need some clips of your guest's discussion of CRT hysteria that I can share with my hysterical , fragile white friends and relatives.

[@bman11714]

Skye: “...God is on our side and we don’t have to do anything more.” Have you ever heard anyone say that? As stated above Christians provide the most help to women considering an abortion today.

[@zacharysiple629]

36:29 I want to stamp this story.

[@zacharysiple629]

33:33 "Alito wants to take us back to 1972." That's the year The Godfather came out. That doesn't sound so bad! :)

[@politereminder6284]

I don't really understand the Roe v wade legal details.

[@mikemestas9835]

----you were saying in comparison by statistics----the over-all care of the women was the supposed most important step---........dont throw your mom out baby with the bath water---no pun intended....You guys really help in this debate.

[@TroyKnoell]

My hope is that the church does step up as well.

[@susanrichardson2139]

But you do know that will not happen - they haven’t stepped up for all of these years to the needs of their community so it’s not realistic to think they will with this. And I’m speaking as a woman who until recently worked for a financially “blessed” church for 24yrs

[@Fallacyfinder]

It already does, your just assuming it doesnt because they arent voring for government programs. Could we do better? absolutely but we are already doing more than anyone

[@susanrichardson2139]

@@Fallacyfinder I’m sure there are some (but few) BUT most do not . They abuse their 501 and keep the wealth within their walls.

[@Fallacyfinder]

@@susanrichardson2139 A few doesn't match the statistics, are proportionally doing more, maybe you need to step up, its hard to see with a plank in the eye :/

[@susanrichardson2139]

@@Fallacyfinder lol now you’ve shown you simply want to argue - have a beautiful day go live kindness and bless someone less fortunate than you

[@VioletSparkle]

Kaitlyn is just the cutest little thing. Beauty and brains!

[@benbrown8258]

You shouldn't tell a lie regarding your neighbor. - From the 10 Suggestions... It strikes me the foundation we have accepted for achieving the restriction of abortion were a series of accepted lies to get to this goal. Lies, pure lies from several of the justices representing US. If the Ends Justifies the Means, then the Indian boarding school that took great uncles and aunts from my family to "guide them to faith in Jesus and becoming a good citizen" truly reflect the core of what Christianity is. Sorry about generational trauma, deaths, rapes and the loss of much that was useful in your culture... just one of the unintended consequences of winning children for Christ. Plus you get to repeat what was experienced in the boarding schools for generations to come! Praise god, another soul in our image! I myself am the product of a choice made when a medical doctor, a medical authority promised my mother, this fifth child, myself, had a high probability, of bringing about her death if she carried me to term. The law did not require her to birth me. She and my father risked it and I am aware of the sacrifice that was made and I am grateful. I have often felt unease with abortion as it stands. I have also Never put or encouraged any woman to be in a position where such an issue was a concern. But to the core of my being I feel accepting restricting abortion via a pathways of lies will reap wrong that chills my soul to a solid block of ice. Terrifying. Utterly terrifying, but too often represents our methodology and the true god worshiped.

[@gingermontalvo4612]

I appreciate you guys for asking conservatives to have a more holistic view of "pro-life." However, you don't address or handwave a lot of major pro-choice concerns. I can't tell if you're unaware? Here's what bothered me: 1. "8 1/2 month abortions" and talk about late term abortions. This isn't because people have been lazy... it's because their pregnancy is wanted. They only get an abortion because something has gone catastrophically wrong. Late term abortions are a medical issue, not a personal choice. Restricting access to late term abortion is a serious health justice issue. 2. The "Silent Scream" movie is a propaganda film. It's not scientifically or medically accurate. 3. "Overreacting on both sides" feels like tone policing. This is a serious issue with serious consequences. I realize the banning inter-racial marriage sounds like a stretch, but banning / restricting access to birth control is a realistic fear for Americans. In fact, it's nothing new: since the ACA at least, people have been angry that others even have access to free or affordable birth control. Many religious folk claim birth control causes promiscuity. 4. "Justice Alito doesn't want to take us back to the 17th century!" You should have finished the article. He quotes a jurist from that time period who had some abhorrent views. 5. Crisis pregnancy centers are not a cure to unwanted pregnancies. They are known for spreading misinformation, and only offering short term help. 6. Please just consider the many, many reasons people seek an abortion. I'm left with the implication that it's just irresponsible people! (Especially when you share that dubious story about a woman using abortion as birth control six times. ) Married people seek abortions, devoted parents seek abortions, sick people seek abortions, people who desperately want children seek abortions, religious and responsible people seek abortions.

[@jungeriii]

Sky, "this is not certain." Derp, it was certain. It was architected, you credulity on this is absurd.

[@bethprather9241]

I have noticed more teenage pregnancy places being supported in my state of Ky

[@draunt7]

I'm a former Christian, now a Gaianist Marxist. If y'all have any questions re: the left, i'm open to try to answer some. Personally, i'm opposed to Abortion, however I don't believe the State has any say in this decision at all until that child is birthed and has a birth certificate and therefore becomes a citizen of these United States. The mother is the sole priority to the State, and her rights cannot be infringed upon. This is a decision between the woman and her doctor, and no on else. If you want to reduce abortion rates through State action. Implement policies like Universal Healthcare, Universal Housing, paternal leave/pay, and universal higher education. This way women are enabled to raise children and find fulfillment through her profession and maternity.

[@charlesrankin1190]

A lot of you in the comments here are advocating for increases in government social programs to help alleviate the suffering of poor women who will have to give birth to kids they did not want and/or expect. While I share your passion for the underprivileged, I do not believe that government social programs are the solution to this crisis. These are complex economic issues, and history tells us that simple solutions rarely, if ever, work. There are often negative and unforeseen economic consequences that result from government policies. Welfare can certainly keep a person alive; but it often cannot help them get out of their situation. That requires private charities, on the ground in our major cities and across the nation, helping those in need directly. We are the Body of Christ; it is ultimately our responsibility to help the poor and needy. The Civil Service can help us, but they cannot do the job alone. What if we helped people get health insurance, and advocated for policies to address why medical costs are so high? What if we helped people to get mortgages? What if we gave people job training and additional work incentives? I firmly believe that if we really stood up and worked to help end poverty in this country, we could eliminate poverty in the entire US by the end of the century at the absolute latest. Take care folks. Love the show.

[@Fallacyfinder]

Already off to a murky start(not suprised the Holy Post is famous for muddying the waters) talking about the "Conservative" history of affirming abortion and USING the SBC as an example actually doesnt help your cause. Most will know that the convention had gone in a more liberal direction when Roe first happened and the conservative resurgence took place in the 70's and 80s. So the information is deceptive

[@ConnorMarc]

Can you explain how the actual history is "deceptive?"

[@Fallacyfinder]

@@ConnorMarc Presenting liberal views as if they were held by conservatives, pay attention Marc.

[@Fallacyfinder]

The conservative resurgence couldn't have happened unless there was a liberal majority back then, so claiming the sbc being pro choice as an example of conservative views changing makes little sense. The sbc was much more liberal then, what part aren't you understanding?

[@adamrshields]

SBC was never liberal. There was some people within SBC that were more liberal. But to suggest that AW Criswell and others that Skye was talking about were liberal is ridiculous. Where you are probably right is that there was a political cohesiveness that grew in part because of the conservative resurgence.

[@ConnorMarc]

@@Fallacyfinder Be specific. What "liberal views" exactly?

[@mdl8210]

I thought that!!!

[@patrickc3419]

So yes or no, no beating around the bush, talking in riddles, or trying to sound funny or cleaver..Will (or does) Phil Vischer support the full abolition of abortion, and reclassification of it as a crime?

[@patrickc3419]

@Michael Ward Well I mean, that’s just another fruit of evidence that Phil Vischer is not a Christian. It is not possible for a genuine Christian to support any form of the murder of unborn children. Along with that, he: -Believes in evolution, and has mocked Christians who (biblically) do not. -Gave a very snide, “Bidenesque” remark about Voddie Baucham (who frankly, could run circles around Vischer). -Supports the social justice movement and critical race theory. -Compared Florida Law 1557 to Jim Crow laws.

[@trishakoury-stoops2372]

It’s interesting that Katlyn .. being on the side of women not choosing.. that you believe you will be able to preach as a woman.. men won’t allow you to soon as well as no birth control etc.. interesting how you will feel once the religious right takes over..

[@pamelamaddox1547]

Oops...on the male where it truly belongs.

[@reynadelikat6410]

Eeey Phil ima five too!

[@bman11714]

Couple things on Kaitlyn’s comments: 1. Where does she get her facts on White Evangelical churches? 2. It’s not Biblical to rely on government to make policies to help women who make poor decisions. The Christian Church is currently the largest sponsorship of non-profit help to the poor and abortion alternative counseling. You can’t just make policy and forget about the issue.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

If the church were doing anywhere close to enough, no one would be asking the government to help out. Why has the church failed so completely in helping the least of these?

[@bman11714]

@@Justanotherconsumer Failed? How so?

[@jamesthomas12]

@@Justanotherconsumer as a Christian, what are you doing to care for mothers in vulnerable situations? What are you doing to care for children in dangerous situations? You say that churches are not doing enough, but as it has already been said Christians are the workhorses for providing crisis centers and family centers, as well as supporting families in their own private lives. If more people (Christians and non Christians) valued life, they would be more proactive in their own lives to care for people in need and not depend on the government to do what we should be doing.

[@stevenmerritt4960]

As usual the christian idea is that the parts of the Bible that say to help people are individual not governmental. The parts that are about christians seizing power are about government. The parts that are about hurting people are governmental. Helping poor people? That's not the governments job. Providing help for single mothers? Not the governments job. Discriminate against gay people? QUICK! Someone call congress! We need to hurt some people who aren't doing as we say! Quick! There's people to discriminate against! Yes, christians are the ones funding "alternative counseling" for women. By alternative counseling, I mean lying to them to get them not to get an abortion. Wow, I stand in awe of your amazing morality. Oh wait, did I say morality? I meant evil. Frankly, I think you are rather christ-like.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

@@jamesthomas12 or we could use the tools we have available for public benefit through the same. Some churches really walk the walk, but many simply do some token outreach. This is not “my” problem - it’s “our” problem, and social problems require social solutions. I can (and do!) help through things like food banks (financially and through our church’s regular collection program), outreach programs, etc… but I can’t do it alone. The number of people in American society actively opposed to helping the poor makes it quite difficult, though we do as a society at least have minimal numbers of people outright starving so it’s not a complete failure. The problem is that many are more committed to maintaining the social hierarchy than they are to helping the least of these. Ways of the world, I guess.

[@zacharysiple629]

13:09 That'd be quite a stumper for "pro-science" abortion supporters who say "it's a clump of cells" in 2022.

[@stevenmerritt4960]

Not really. If you take a look at an accurate portrayal of a fetus, it isn't a tiny fully functional human with all the human characteristics after a couple of days. If you take a complete and accurate look at fetal development (and not lying christian sources), you will find it pretty easy to support abortion. If you look at dishonest christian sources you'll find the lies you are looking for.

[@zacharysiple629]

@@stevenmerritt4960 There's atheists who are pro-life at conception. Science textbooks affirm that as well.

[@stevenmerritt4960]

@@zacharysiple629 The laws of physics don't say whether you should be pro choice. There are a few atheists that are not pro choice. What he was saying is certainly not much of a stumper when you look at fetus development for pro choice people. A fetus at conception isn't somehow a fully functional human that is just smaller.

[@zacharysiple629]

@@stevenmerritt4960 Fetal development isn't related to physics. It's a biology thing. I took Parent Child Development in high school (basically a Health class), and we learned about pre-natal life. One day we learned that an unborn baby has a heartbeat within weeks, that it grows, and it kicks. Then I raised my hand and said: "So what you're saying is... this thing has a heartbeat, it's growing, and it can kick? Wow, it almost seems like this thing is ALIVE, and tearing it apart would be KILLING it...interesting!" There was a dead silence- like, you could feel how awkward I made everyone feel. Finally my (male) teacher broke the silence and said: "We're not going to get into that right now." I giggled and said: "Okay, fine." PS, you are correct that few atheists are pro-life, but there ARE pro-life atheists. Christopher Hitchens was pro-life from a science standpoint, I've talked with a guy on Quora who is a pro-life atheist, and there is an organization called Secular Pro-life run by pro-life atheist women.

[@stevenmerritt4960]

@@zacharysiple629 Biology is a subset of physics. A heart beat exists well before thoughts can be formed. Do you define life as starting at a heart beat? If so, abortion is fine up to that point. Of course, not everyone thinks life starts at a heart beat. It seems like a rather arbitrary distinction to make. Lots of arguments can be made for declaring life to start at all sorts of different points. As for your argument that "this thing is ALIVE, and tearing it apart would be KILLING it", this is a poor argument. Yes, it is alive, but is that your basis for declaring it a human life? It has to have human DNA and be alive? If so, then every sperm and every egg is a human being. This way lies madness. You can say that to be a human life it has to be alive, and have human DNA, and have two diploids but then you are being every bit as arbitrary as the person who says third trimester. You are just going more extreme, but no less arbitrary.

[@bman11714]

Kaitlyn: “...and it’s to our shame we didn’t do that already”. What does that even mean???

[@Justanotherconsumer]

That we fail to care for the least of these, as a society, is not a good thing.

[@bman11714]

@@Justanotherconsumer Correct. Jesus calls his followers to care, not society. Katelyn believes that government can solve certain social problems by throwing money at social problems. The Government is horrible at solving these issues. Charitable organizations and especially the Church is best suited for such things. Another thing that never gets mentioned is the redemptive power of the Gospel in restoring social issues.

[@freeindeed7]

@@bman11714 Obviously, then, it is a shame that the Church has not cared. The American Church is very wealthy, and yet these issues are not solved. Furthermore, I do not see any evidence that the Church will solve these issues anytime soon despite the Bible's clear commands, and the example of the (much poorer) early church. The apathy of the Church is the reason so many young Christians believe the government needs to step into the gap. If the gap did not exist, people would not look for that solution.

[@bman11714]

@@freeindeed7 I believe the Church could do more, but unfortunately culture normalized abortion and made it readily available anytime for any reason. That’s extremely hard to combat. Maybe with states voting to make it illegal in most cases, along with assistance from churches and NGO’s, we can change the culture. Let me ask you. What are you doing to help?

[@freeindeed7]

@@bman11714 Whenever a single female friend of mine has gotten pregnant I have been very supportive. I avoid the judgmental attitude, because I know they would rather the man they were with had married them first. It is...the sad state of character of men right now that so many women get pregnant outside of wedlock. So I am supportive, and try to be someone they can call on if they need help. I affirm what the Bible would suggest...there are certain ways God expects people to be treated. God expects His daughters to be treated as worthy of marriage before sex. God expects children to be treated as worthy of life and provision.

[@tawhneebaby]

Europe and USA are not the same. Please stop using their standards with us.

[@joannejenkins7272]

I recently started watching. As a white American woman that lived through the vile language of "the church" concerning the "loving" case!! I totally disagree that soon and very soon the trumpian America will seek to overturn that too. Then All six of my God loving children would become illegal! It's nice to live in your pristine white world where this is something to role your eyes about and then there are those of us that lived through that and live in it. Pro life you say. Yes. I wonder though if you really are? Death penalty? I'm totally appalled at the majority of the Christian community voting for a "red hat" and supporting the likes of that kind of politics. JESUS was about justice. I personally think you deny truth to think "the far right" will stop here. I was born and raised there. They will not stop 😭 Father forgive them💔

[@Syed_12]

( Do Christians And Jews and "OTHER" non-Muslims go to Heaven? ) Quran 2:62 '' Those who believe (in the Quran) and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures) and the Christians and the Sabians->ANYAllah< Is The Protector Of Monasteries, Churches, Synagogues And The Mosques ) Quran 22:40 [They are] those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, " Our Lord is God " And were it not that God checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of God is much mentioned. And God will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, God is Powerful and Exalted in Might. Note: Why did Allah protected Churches and Synagogues if they worship false Allah ? ( Why Are There So Many Different Religions In The World ? ) Quran 5 48 ''...... If God wanted He could have made all of you a single nation.( ie single religion ) But He willed otherwise in order to test you in what He has given you (ie Scriptures) therefore try to excel one another in good deeds. Ultimately you all shall return to God then He will show you the truth of those matters in which you '' >DISPUTE verb < not noun like other religions Islam mean "submission" to God ( The above verse saying is that God will not accept a religion from the >MUSLIM< and the Non-Muslims but total "submission" to God ) Question: How Can Muslim And the Non-Muslim "submit" to the God? Answer: Be kind to other human beings and Do not lie, Do not steal, Do not cheat, Do not hurt others, Do not be prideful and Do the charity work. Note: If you obeyed all the ABOVE Allah-God's moral laws "YOU" submitted to God.( ie Islam mean "submission" to God ) The only people who will enter Paradise those who '' Submitted to God '' ( ie by good deeds ) God does NOT accept your religion of birth but only ''Your Total'' Submission to Him. ( God Allows Interfaith Marriages And Eat Food From the Christian And Jew And Vice Versa ) Quran 5:5 ''This day [all] good foods have been made lawful, and the food of those who were given the Scripture (ie Christian and Jew) is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them. And [lawful in marriage are] chaste women from among the believers (ie Muslim ) and chaste women from among those who were given the Scripture (ie Christian and Jew) before you, when you have given them their due compensation, desiring chastity not unlawful sexual intercourse or taking [secret] lovers. And whoever denies the faith - his work has become worthless and he in the Hereafter will be among the losers.'' Note: > Only < Islam allows interfaith marriages (>14 hundredsSame God< but They are >ALL Corrupt< more or less, some more than others from their original foundational teaching. The older religion are MORE corrupted than newer religion. Question to Muslim and Christian: Does God / Allah only answer your pray ? And God / Allah does not answer non Muslim / non Christian pray? Did Allah '' Canceled '' all other religions Judaism and Christianity? Quran 5:48 '' And We have revealed to you [O Muhammad] the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture ( ie New and old Testament ) and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. >>>TO EACH OF YOU WE PRESCRIBED A LAW AND A METHODone nation>differ qualified < for to enter Paradise ) On the day of judgement God will ''NOT'' judge humanity bases on Sunni Muslim sect VS Shia Muslim sect ''NOR'' by Muslim VS non-Muslim >but< Doer of Goods VS Doer of Evils. '' YOUR " birth in the Muslim's family is NOT a > qualification < for to enter the Paradise. '' YOUR " religion / sect / foot long beard is NOT a > qualification < for to enter the Paradise. The > qualification < to enter Paradise is > Faith in God and Good Work

[@JSAY1069]

Abortion takes the life of an innocent human. Full stop. The conversations about social policy are important and need to be had, but let's not lose sight of first things first. The Christian community already does amazing work to help mothers and their children. That should be encouraged. But even if they did nothing more at all, the removal of the national sanction of murder is still a national good and should be applauded.

[@bluespaceman7937]

Some Christian communities, but what about places where such communities are not present or are simply less interested? You can't always rely on the good will of strangers. Without social policy, pro-life isn't real pro-life. It's basically just pro-birth.

[@JSAY1069]

@@bluespaceman7937 Pro birth? Maybe. Anti-murder? Certainly.

[@hapennysparrow]

To tell a woman that the church will provide support us laughable. For how long? Buy a few boxes of disposable diapers ? I receiving blanket? A pair of booties? The church is going to pay her rent, her medical expenses, her job training, her child care needs? Surely you jest. The church is mainly judgemental, and believes in pulling one up by ones own bootstraps. Gotta have a pair of boots first.

[@JSAY1069]

@@hapennysparrow I'm sorry that's been your experience with the church.

[@Tupelo927]

The death penalty is national sanction of murder; abortion is not.