A Biblical Theology of Gender (with Erik Thoennes)

What does the Bible say about being male and female? What does it mean to be a man and a woman? In this conversation, Sean and Scott Rae talk with Biola professor Erik Thoennes about these questions and more. This episode was first filmed for the Think Biblically podcast.
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[@jamesmaybury7452]

‘To sympathise to the point of being untruthful is harmful. To speak truth without sympathy is harmful.’ I just want to emphasise that.

[@peregrineprude2046]

God's truth is a fulcrum and this conversation strikes a wise, biblical balance. I especially appreciate the statement by Thoennes that "It’s important to distinguish between a cultural movement that we should call out and combat and individuals who are caught up in this cultural movement. And there should be tremendous compassion and care. So I appreciate why people say, especially conservatives, 'Facts don’t care about your feelings.' What I say is 'That’s true, but I do and God does.'"

[@denisearmstrong77]

This is by far the most helpful discussion I have heard to date on this topic! Thank you! Let’s get this out!👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾🙏🏿

[@sm8johnthreesixteen]

This clip beginning around 29:25 undermines the biblical message we older women are to communicate to young mothers in their roles as wives and mothers. Aged women are commanded to teach the younger women according to Titus 2:3-5 with respect to loving their husbands and children. Scripturally and physically, women are gifted and called to be helpers to their husbands and nurturers of their children (ref. Genesis 2:18, 21-24, Titus 2:4, 1 Timothy 5:14, and others). Their bodies are equipped to carry, bear, and nurse children; their temperaments and talents are suited to child rearing, homemaking, and all of interesting and varied tasks that accompany them (Proverbs 31 and others). A mother’s natural maternal instincts lead her to want to be with her children, to love and protect them (Isaiah 49:15). Scripturally and physically, they are the weaker vessel (1 Peter 3:7). Traditional roles, which are scriptural, recognize and value the contributions of both men and women to marriage and the home. It is an interdependent relationship by design; all benefit from this blueprint for marriage and family, especially vulnerable children. It takes the best of a young mother’s time, energy and presence to fulfill these roles, especially when dependent children are in the home. When one’s children have grown, women have more time to pursue other things within scriptural parameters. Today’s women are being led to believe that Proverbs 31 means that a young mother should work 40+ hours a week outside of the home, leaving her precious children, her heritage according to Psalm 127:3, to the care of strangers. Many young mothers lament that they would like to be at home with their children, but have student loan debt, a two-income lifestyle, unsupportive husbands, etc., that are obstacles to coming home. Many men complain that their wives with both career and children are too tired for physical intimacy. Many young women pursue demanding college and career paths, unaware that they may be forever missing the window for marriage and children in so doing. None of these things serve marriage and family well; they are detrimental to them. Three times in scripture, women are identified and called keepers at home (Psalm 113:9, 1 Timothy 5:14, and Titus 2:5 “keepers at home”). I do not know of any passages that in a like manner command men. Statistically, many men are shrinking back from their roles as providers as feminist thought has taken hold, blurring the distinctions between men and women as evidenced by the growing trend of stay-at-home dads (the exception with respect to illness/disability notwithstanding). God has not left us without clear markers both in nature and in scripture regarding genders and roles of men and women in marriage. Godly mothers are greatly needed in their homes. A woman’s home and family can, and ideally, ought, to be her primary endeavors during her children’s formative years and is a blessed form of service to God and others.

[@austyn5004]

Beautiful response. I'm upset it took me 8 years to figure this out.

[@MrSeedi76]

Sorry to say that but there is no biblical case to be made for women staying home and raising kids.

[@carolinelvsewe]

Such a great channel Dr McDowell. Thank you. Many are missing out. Please keep going here.

[@taylorthatwriter6865]

Oh how I love Dr. Thoennes. "I don't even know what it means to be a man anymore," is a question that I ask all the time. As a Christian experiencing same sex desires, trying to be a "man" is a nebulous reality sometimes. Even if I weren't experiencing SSA, manhood is still nebulous! I LOVE this discussion.

[@chrisazure1624]

Look into Reintergrative Therapy.

[@espacioseguroPR]

Look at Kathy Baldock, Karen Keen, Megan DeFranza and The Reformation Proyect work.

[@chrisazure1624]

@@espacioseguroPR Romans 6. All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable.

[@evanhadkins5532]

What can you receive with thanksgiving?

[@hemikiwi817]

"If i follwed my natural inclinations I would be in prison for a very long time?????".....my mind boggles as to what he is denying himself of!!!!

[@jeffhulse803]

This was interesting conversation. I felt that the speaker spoke out of two sides of his mouth though when he suggested stereotypes can be an issue, but then went all in on how being protective is a God given instinct without providing any biblical support for it. Then to back him up, one of the hosts tells the story of the son who went out back and stepped in because he saw a woman being beaten by her boyfriend as support for that argument. Did anyone stop to think that maybe that young man stepped in not because he's protective, but because he knew simple right and wrong and felt the need to step in because of that alone? He probably would have stepped in if it hadn't been a woman but a skinny young homeless man because the Bible tells all of us, not just me, to defend the weak. (Psalm 82:3). And think of all the examples of how a crowd of men and women turn their backs on people who are in a victim state. If it's God given, what happened. I enjoyed the dialogue and look forward to trying this channel again. But I think it was said best when the hosts stated the survey about David and Sampson being called out as biblical men and nobody said Jesus.

[@boomtoastedgaming3942]

I’m going to have to go back through this and take notes. So many great thoughts

[@kenlang5543]

Great discussion - thanks so much for the thoughtful dialog. Blessigns!

[@kathrynknipe6615]

Another beautiful conversation. Thanks all!

[@troyjhinkle]

Thanks for this thoughtful, truthful, and loving discussion on such a sensitive topic. God Bless you all!

[@rebeccahayhurst442]

I appreciate this conversation so much in the balance of holding onto the truth and also God’s love , when talking about gender. I think it’s so true that we as Christians need to be able to distinguish was is cultural is how we define what a man and woman is and what is intrinsic in what God has made us biologically and I think also spiritually male and female and that we reflect Gods image uniquely in our gender. The love and protection and respect for women really was encouraging to hear. I would also like to see Christians delve more deeply into the psychological issues of how gender dysphoria happens and although we need to be defenders of God’s truth I think we need to be careful about language like “ we need to combat a cultural revolution” as a type of war against human beings that hold to secular ideas. I think it’s true that these ideas are spiritual and cultural strongholds, and the truth needs to be upheld but we also need to show a lot of compassion as well in this area as teens who are LGBT et.report being bullied at about a 33% rate or those who have these characteristics. Our culture does promote this gender confusion but some in our culture also promote hate towards those with same sex desires and attractions and many Christians do not print that out. Many of those within this community do not feel safe or loved by those within the church.

[@mkarwowski7afwife]

I have a hard time believing anyone who is LGBTQ alphabet is bullied today. Maybe in some remote areas, because of course there are never absolutes, but this is truly the most celebrated thing socially and culturally. Any studies showing that are absolutely old old old and outdated. It is not the current situation, and I can speak to this with the authority of being a parent of high schoolers. Yes we need to show compassion, but don't be fooled with the lie that there is some major bullying going on. If anything, Christians and conservatives and genuine males are facing the biggest pressure right now.

[@rebeccahayhurst442]

I agree this is very much celebrated in our culture. I work in a public school and we have LGBTQ month and it’s pushed pretty hard. I don’t disagree.

[@rebeccahayhurst442]

The 33% percent figure I got from my textbook I’m using right now in an Education class I’m taking with Liberty University. It’s written by Paul Burden. The date that it was reported was 2017. The suicide rate is also pretty high. These are self reported by students. It’s possible that is their perception and not reality but I don’t think it should all be dismissed or is the case for all of them. Our society has changed but a lot of the social media my teen son shows me, there’s a lot of jokes about homosexuals et. Gay still seems to be a common insult still. As a Christian I believe engaging in homosexual sex is a sin et. but I think we need to develop relationships with those in this community and really get to know them and understand their story. I think there’s a perception of hostility from Christians we need to be aware of. I agree that Christians are mistreated in school school systems. I think we need to overcome evil with good and focus on building relationships and sharing God’s love.

[@petercarter8455]

I love the gentle way he brings correction to a subject so filled with hurt. Doing this without aggrandisement of the sexual sins.

[@vodean1465]

Thoennes mostly dodged the question at 6:05 about how he would minister to people wrestling with gender dysphoria. He says that he would not single it out as worse than other sins. Then he talks about how people define themselves by their sexual desires and that everyone else struggles with sexual sin. I'm not sure how that is related, because most people's gender dysphoria is not connected at all with sexuality. It is more about gender roles, stereotypes, personality, and discomfort with parts of one's body. It is disappointing that he wasn't prepared for that question.

[@kaiwilliams141]

I appreciate this so much. Very thoughtful and balanced and most importantly faithful to scripture

[@bennywaters5736]

Appreciate the grace and firmness on the truth of God's word...taking the long view....so right! We are all works in progress, and God is transforming us more and more into the likeness of Christ!

[@deniseb9860]

Such a good episode - thank you!

[@beemer2869]

Fascinating discussion. I agree that while men and women are both created equally, we are different too. Sadly, women like me who agree with this, and the Bible's teaching are deemed as old fashioned in today's society. I love chivalry, feeling protected by a man, while at the same time respecting the many strong women who have done great things. We have to remember, Jesus spent much of His time in the company of women too, particularly Mary Magdalene. We have the same value as men, and should be treated with the same respect while respecting the differences between us. We have hormonal differences, different reproductive systems that God amazingly created to respond together to procreate. Women often think differently to men, in a more gentle, nurturing way that combines with the male strength and sense of being the main protector. This isn't to say that women aren't capable of doing many traditional male roles, as proven in the Home Front during WW1 and WW2 in my country, England. What it does make me think is oftentimes necessity of situations can reverse traditional roles. Many women can achieve more than men, that has to be a positive thing when it is for the good of mankind, as I believe that God has gifted them this way. God loves all of us equally, and has equipped us to be who He would desire us to be, according to His word. Tragically ,some stray away from their created gender when temptation hits them. Men are men, women are women and God is our guide, and however people see gender identity, this cannot be changed and I feel that when people try to, it is an illness that they are giving in to. While I feel a deep compassion for anyone who is tempted by going against God"s creational purpose, and will always treat them with respect, I cannot see any way where I can accept it as right, and sadly this Christian worldview comes with many derogatory labels and judgements. It is a very difficult one, but my Christian teaching will always be my priority and I will love others as He loves me, but I can't deny His word and His plans for creation.

[@markvincent9757]

Define the biblical terms it essential. It will become less complex. Modern terms without a God worldview anything goes!

[@sarahsays194]

Same sister!

[@Mymle]

Yes, I love being a woman, I don’t want to be treated the same as men.

[@abedetesfa5158]

Great discussion of a very timely and serious issue facing the world and God's church. 🙏🏾

[@KRashad]

The whole posture of this conversation is MONUMENTAL! How? Because the pastor is leading the conversation-not the professionals (no disrespect, or course). And that's where I think the bigger lesson is for our culture. Confusion on this subject has so infiltrated the Church because para-church "professionals" have usurped the biblical authority of the local church pastor to competently counsel in these areas. It is the biblical elders that God has entrusted his specific authority within the Church to speak to these things for us. I love this!

[@SeanMcDowell]

I’m so glad you enjoyed it. Thanks for watching and weighing in.

[@batesestabrooks3774]

Thank you for giving examples of manhood.

[@jaykrizzle]

I find it very strange how Christians find modern gender ideology so appealing in the first place. It seemed like unadulterated madness and insanity when I was not walking with Christ, and even more so now that I am.

[@Truthin15]

It is an issue that is driving certain individuals away from the King. We need to take an interest in all such issues as good soldiers for the King. We need to be prepared to talk to people about these issues. I haven’t seen any obsession with it, just a focus on it as with other issues that drive people away like abortion, gay marriage, divorce, etc. God bless and praise God that you’re walking with the Lord if in fact you are brother.

[@titustrujillo3815]

😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊

[@markvincent9757]

Perhaps you missed the truth statement. It's appalling because it not God's truth about human nature. It's not God design and definition of reality. We Christians are concerned because we care about everyone to be accountable under a biblical worldview. God is the best explanation of all things. That's why it's appalling.

[@jaykrizzle]

@@markvincent9757 I think you misread my comment. I said I don't understand why Christians find woke gender ideology appealing. Not appalling.

[@markvincent9757]

Your correct. I misread.

[@lylelylers]

I must preface by saying that I am pretty sure a Christian author gets credit for this thought but I admit I don't remember the name, point is, I take No credit for this powerful thought: Psalm 27:4 says: "One thing I ask from the LORD, this only do I seek: that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze on the beauty of the LORD and to seek him in his temple." Image and Likeness are similar but not the same! An artist paints an image and produces a likeness of the image. Here's the beautiful truth; the More we Gaze at the glorious Image of Jesus, the More we believers take on His Likeness!!! What are you gazing at today; Jesus, or something else? You know Jesus Himself said in Luke 6:45, "... for the mouth speaks what the heart is full of." So, let us All enter in our prayer times, Often into our Lord's Holy Temple and let us linger there, long and meditative and Gaze at Jesus, (The Original Image!!!) so we begin to take upon us (in all characteristics) His Amazing Likeness and be beacons of His Light in this ever darkening world! Be blessed....

[@danwatterworththerapy9250]

Thanks for this conversation! It was helpful.

[@KathrineJKozachok]

So many great soundbites in this that deserve contemplation.

[@biddiemutter3481]

44:18 saying that one doesn't care is a sure way to close down a conversation without moving the other person towards the Bible! Explanation of why our feelings are unreliable will get one much further!

[@vilmabock478]

Sinful Desires can be traced back to the fallen nature of Adam. What communion have Light with darkness; none. Thank you for this program. Very helpful! 🤗 Blessings. 🌼

[@trishwragg848]

There is nothing new under the sun. The big difference today is people have little self control. Many of the feelings happen at times as you grow up, and hormones are high, and this is much of what kids are going through today. Secular adults with bad agendas are the ones that have created it, from a natural growth thought process into something abnormal and push the emotional and lustful issues.( guardrails around desires) that is exactly what is missing today. Thank you for this discussion. We need to bring back biblical approaches to these issues, instead of letting the world view dominate. Lovingly dealing with people is the key. The drug issue in the sixties is that generational problem, and it was so evident then that secular adults were the creators of the problem.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

"these days" blimey.

[@dorothyclark8680]

When Sean askes VERY CLEARLY (around 6minutes in), what would you say to someone struggling with Body Dismorphia, I feel like Mr. Thoennes completely side stepped his answer. He had NO ANSWER for the very clear question! Is it just me? Please help clarify.

[@Balcamion79]

I would say he addressed it by pointing out that all of us need to submit our whole selves to the Creator, regardless of the particular impulses or issues we deal with. I think his point was that our culture magnifies this one aspect of our lives and makes us tend to overlook our universally shared need for grace, redemption, submission, and sanctification. Then he specifically mentioned Christopher Yuan's book "Holly Sexuality" and his emphasis of submitting our sexuality in expression and, with grace, identitification and desire that aligns with God's design for us.

[@johnmatthew536]

THE ANSWER IS YOU HAVE TO CONSECRATE YOURSELF TO ST. JOSEPH..THE HEAD OF THE HOLY FAMILY..ST. JOSEPH IS THE ONE WHO TEACH JESUS HOW TO BECOME A MAN FROM BEING A BOY..ST. JOSEPH IS THE MODEL OF MANHOOD AND FATHERHOOD..I HEARD HUNDRED OF STORIES FROM HOMOSEXUALS WHO WERE FREED FROM SAME SEX ATTRACTION ONLY BECAUSE THEY PRAYED TO ST. JOSEPH

[@jocelyn4981]

I was very confused by your question because I thought it WAS addressed -- but you use the term "Body Dismorphia" (sic spelling: "Dysmorphia) when the panel was talking about "Gender Dysphoria". While the two can be combined in the same person, the entire talk is on SEXUALITY and gender. A detailed discussion of Body Dysmorphia was not had, as it is a broader topic that includes one's sexual body parts *and/or* one's other body parts. I would love to see a discussion on the reality of the struggle with Body Dysmorphia (*both* when the struggle is with sexual/gender specific parts AND when the person is struggling with regards to other parts, but it was not addressed here either on purpose or in ignorance about Body Dysmorphia.

[@cyndawinans8315]

This was amazing! So thorough and helpful. Thank you so much! "Truthless compassion"...very true.

[@jesusislord9447]

Amzing! God bless u all

[@lindabooker3512]

Hello! About forgiveness…I can’t help thinking that the person that is being offered forgiveness might think of the forgiver as narcissistic. He/she might say “who are you to forgive ME! You are no better. We’re all in the same boat “, and I think that person is correct. The forgiver might be in need of reflecting on the benefits of developing humility. Could this be part of the process of forgiveness?

[@micah1464]

If you are talking about eternal forgiveness, of course it would be narcissistic for someone to offer that. Only God can truly forgive all of someone’s sin. Spreading the Gospel is not about forgiving people, it’s about directing them to God’s never-ending mercy.

[@lindabooker3512]

Micah Hello Micah. Thank you for replying. Eternal forgiveness is not what I had in mind. Perhaps I didn’t speak clearly, but I was thinking more on the level of human interaction. Having trust in God seems to be easier than having trust in each other; hence the reason for the complexity in forgiveness. Looking forward to your thoughts. Thank you.

[@micah1464]

@@lindabooker3512 Oh, okay. I misunderstood your question. I think that forgiveness can be very complicated and situational, but it is necessary for any kind of relationship. In your hypothetical scenario, has the forgiven person said sorry? If not, they are still in the wrong and, in my opinion, have the responsibility to ask for forgiveness and initiate the reconciliation. That's not to say that you can't forgive someone who hasn't apologized, but I think if you confront them and tell them you forgive them before they've apologized and they say 'who are you to forgive me?' they are continuing to be the cause of the separation in the relationship. Relational forgiveness is not about shaming or being condescending or being prideful, it's about acknowledging a specific wrong that hurt someone.

[@lindabooker3512]

Micah Hi Micah. It’s not that I don’t/won’t forgive. It is more like a pattern of behavior that is toxic and life is too short. I let go and let God.

[@micah1464]

@@lindabooker3512 As I said, I think it’s very situational. If you feel you’re being asked to apologize for something you don’t owe an apology for, that’s a different story. I would also take my advice with a grain of salt and ask a friend or mentor instead of the internet.

[@caramia4483]

Oh hey I had Thoennes for Theology years ago at Biola 🙌🏽

[@SeanMcDowell]

Awesome!

[@dansaber4427]

@@SeanMcDowell can you hear God or are you trying to keep the law? If you're reading the Bible to know what's good and evil would it be fair to say that you ended your relationship with God? The Bible is only literature to me but if you believe it's true what are the consequences of learning good and evil? What happened to Adam and eve?

[@micah1464]

@@dansaber4427 Adam and Eve caused us to be born with ‘the knowledge of good and evil’ or a sinful nature. So, in a sense, you are correct: we have ended our relationship with God. However, reading His Word and receiving His forgiveness does the complete opposite. You are suggesting that by knowing God we cease to know Him, which doesn’t make any sense.

[@dansaber4427]

@@micah1464 just because you were born knowing good and evil doesn't mean you can't be born again. And just because you were born knowing something doesn't mean you should continue in it. Repent you can have your mind renewed and your conscience cleared. You can be reconciled with the father if you want.

[@micah1464]

@@dansaber4427 I’m sorry, I honestly don’t understand what you’re arguing. We are born into sin because of Adam and Eve, but God offers reconciliation to Him through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. We can know Him through His Word and and His Law.

[@keltay188]

Hearing the part where the guy said his children dream about and long for a situation to occur where a man is beating up a woman and they can step in and be a hero is so obviously self glorifying to me. They clearly have heard their dad go on about how great that is and they want a horrible situation to occur so they can step in and be seen as a hero. The intention behind this seems clear to me, and to hear the dad say he loves that is ignorant to me. Sad to hear, I hope the intentions behind this become clear, it's good to want to do a good work, but do it for the right reasons and don't hope for something bad to happen just so you can step in and right it.

[@yilikaloufoua5374]

How do you think about female pastors and what Paul said about them?

[@SeanMcDowell]

I discuss that in an earlier dialogue on Thai channel with Burk and Pierce…

[@lawrencefoster2120]

Really,he couldn't simple answer.

[@will95515]

They are elders. Qualifications are clear for elders.

[@thomasdillon777]

@@lawrencefoster2120 he pointed you in a direction. Answers are often more meaningful when you do your own seeking and finding. Maybe give it a look and see if you still have clarifying questions you would like to ask.

[@Balcamion79]

I've really appreciated Mike Winger's video series on this on the Bible Thinker KZbin channel. It's a very in depth look at the topic on many categories with a higher view of scripture than of preference.

[@mugglescakesniffer3943]

I would like to hear about the story of the men giving their lives for women in movie theaters do you have a link?

[@oliverjamito9902]

What is to rest from thy labor? Say life given before departure! What should the "i" AM should say? Students what is life? "Conversations"! INDEED

[@edeancozzens3833]

In his book THE WALKING DRUM Louis L'Amour comments on a female character who was trying to be a man. Louis wrote that a woman trying to be a man ends up being neither.

[@theonlyqueenyouknow]

Soo good. Thank you.

[@freedomhouseministries]

Such a good and helpful discussion.

[@chasdouglas6217]

I think this issue is a purposeful distracting tactic from the enemy.

[@lindabooker3512]

“Life is lumpy”.

[@mandelbrotset4142]

What is a good response to the question, “What about intersex people?” I have had this question directed toward me in discussions in an attempt to challenge the male/female binary of Genesis 1:27. The argument is that because there are people who are born with both sets of genitals, or with some kind of anomaly with their X and Y chromosomes, we need to rethink what the Bible says and/or interpret it in a more open way. I’m aware that we live in a fallen world; I’m looking for a more in-depth answer than that.

[@lionheartapologetics4914]

Here are my thoughts. Intersex conditions are an extremely rare (0.018%) deviation from the norm. This is an aspect of creation marred by the fall. This deviation reaffirms the norm exists in the first place. An intersex person posseses a body, chromosomal, and/ or anatomical abnormalities that are empirically verifiable. Intersex and transgender are categorically different (think apples and orange trucks). The former is an absolute condition. The latter is a sinful construction of the mind.

[@pikeeper1]

The easy answer is that Genesis was not intended to say that there is a male/female binary.

[@jaykrizzle]

It's a tragic birth defect, among many other chromosomal disorders like downes syndrome etc. A sad event that should be prayed about and not celebrated.

[@kevinkelly2162]

@@lionheartapologetics4914 So fascinating to hear your thoughts but what does the Bible say?

[@goor1322]

Another thought about intersex is that they themselves cannot impregnate and be impregnated at the same time. They cannot be both or impregnate themselves. Each one has to be evaluated on a case by case basis.

[@amandablakely7702]

Great conversation and very helpful! However, while there was a lot of discussion around what it means to be a man, you seemed to skip over what it means to be a woman. 😢

[@marianschroder6574]

That would be a bit of a challenge, seeing that the discussion was held by three men. Older women need to disciple younger women about biblical womanhood.

[@edeancozzens3833]

Dr Donald Joy from Asbury Seminary in his great book BONDING: RELATIONSHIPS IN THE IMAGE OF GOD, presents the idea that the two genders of a masculine principle or energy, and a feminine principle or energy, were in God Himself and when He made the universe He put those two beautifully into all of creation. Its everywhere and it is beautiful and very functional and it came out of the image of God. But with the first Adam, God for some reason apparently put both. That first Adam had both, then God saw that it was not good, put Adam to sleep, pulled out the feminine and put it in its own body leaving the masculine in a reduced Adam. Now we get to see out in the open what happens internally within YahWeh. By the way in the Hebrew language Yah is masculine and Weh is Feminine.

[@mugglescakesniffer3943]

Yeah um people fighting their natural bend does not bode well over a long period of time.

[@oliverjamito9902]

My beautiful do ye exist? No! Why? 1ST Thy shared "i" AM beautiful in front of thee! Therefore remind and comes with comfort unto many "WHO AM I"? My beautiful! To "i" AM. Yes, even creation itself knows WHO? Yes, even the SUN AND THE MOON. Made for Thee!

[@thewrightoknow]

Really pleased to hear Biblically Based Truth be communicated on this topic.

[@kevinkelly2162]

I would be pleased to hear biblically based truth on the subject of wearing mixed fabrics. It is a capital offence according to the Bible.

[@goor1322]

@@kevinkelly2162 I would say that does not apply to the Christians. That was part of the first covenant for a certain people group for a limited time for a certain purpose. We are now in a new covenant and whatever is repeated in the New covenant still applies. The rest does not. That's how I would navigate that

[@kevinkelly2162]

@@goor1322 But the bit about homosexuality a few verses further is still relevant?

[@leonardhunt7241]

@@kevinkelly2162 homosexuality is found in the NT Romans 1. Jesus related gender in saying man and wife are one flesh. Matthew 19:6, Mark 10:8.

[@kevinkelly2162]

@@leonardhunt7241 You mean Paul or somebody else, we are not exactly sure who, related that Jesus said actually. Hearsay at best.

[@michaelatherton677]

To speak about their comment that “the desire is not a sin”, I’ve been challenged with the argument that Jesus said to look with lust is adultery. So how can just looking and desiring not be a sin when Jesus calls it a sin? I’m stumped.

[@SeanMcDowell]

Is the desire or attraction to something the same as lust? I’m not sure it is.

[@SeanMcDowell]

Is the desire or attraction to something the same as lust? I’m not sure it is.

[@MrSeedi76]

Jesus also told us to rip out our eye if it leads us to sin. Strange that I rarely see one eyed believers in "Biblical inerrancy" or the Bible being "the word of God" when they don't even follow this very simple and clear commandment and at the same time worry about LGBTQ or video games or Harry Potter movies 😂😂😂.

[@lesliewells1062]

Hi! I just got done listening you being on Mike Winger's show and talking about some very important things about sex, marriage, singleness, etc. Thank you for that video--I got so much out of it. I have a question about one thing you said. You said that the Bible says that we are to live our lives as a person of the gender that we were biologically born. Where does it say that? I have a lot of compassion for people who are born in a body they don't feel like they don't belong in, that they feel like it's the wrong gender. But I want to believe what is Biblical, not just go with my feelings. I want to read in God's Word where it says that so I can really know that a girl can't be born in a male body and a boy can't be born in a female body. Thank you very much!! God bless you!!

[@MrSeedi76]

I wonder why you never got an answer. Probably because the Bible never says such a thing.

[@lesliewells1062]

@@MrSeedi76 That is very possible.

[@forAME11]

Nancy Pearce’s book and Sam Alberry have both written on the Biblical view of the body and identity. Sean has them together in a video as well.

[@grahck4391]

I honestly don't see what the issue is, and why there's so much confusion as to what your gender is. God determined that ... either male or female. That doesn't change. It does deeper than the proverbial pluming between your legs. God ingrained it our psychology, into our physicality, and into our genetics.

[@nils7286]

And thats the problem i guess. what if psychology, physicality and genetics dont point in the same direction?

[@grahck4391]

@@nils7286 Basing something such as gender upon how someone feels or thinks at any given moment (ie: psychology) is rather short sighted given how fluid and ever changing a person's psychology can be.

[@MichaelBrown-ds5ll]

Interesting question related to culture and cultural expression of gender and sexuality around the 19-20 minute mark. Let's first realize that the word culture comes from the latin word cultus and means worship. A culture is a set of beliefs and values which are worthy... that to which we ascribe worth worthy of worship. By definition we are dealing with religious beliefs when we talk about culture. There are three essential components to religion which are inescapable: 1) every religion contains a set of beliefs relating to the origin, purpose and function of the universe, 2) these beliefs are then lived out with daily devotion in every day life, and 3) there is a moral code contained in every religion that specifies what is considered right and what is considered wrong. Theism and its subsectors are religions, just as pantheism and all its subsectors are religions, and ...yes..even atheism/naturalism/materialism are religions. For this reason culture, though relevant, must be understood to be charged with religious beliefs even if those beliefs are immoral, amoral and even non-theistic. There is no such thing as a non-religious worldview when you get to its core. That said, Jesus spoke very specifically to both sexuality and gender. He used very specific terms and rooted his understanding in the Tanakh, more rightly the Torah, and most specifically in Genesis chapter 1, when he responds to the religious leaders of his day who were challenging him: Matthew 19:3-5 "Then some Pharisees came and tested Him by asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason?” Jesus answered, “ Have you not read that from THE BEGINNING (This is one word which references Genesis, B'resheet) the Creator ‘made them MALE (Gender) and FEMALE (Gender),’ and said, ‘For this reason a man (biological sexuality) will leave his father and mother (specific terminology...not vague) and be united to his wife (biological sexuality within the context of heterosexual covenant marriage), and the two will become one flesh’?" Do you see that Jesus in context makes no separation between biology, sexuality, and gender. He considers the persons identity as one and the same Male=Man=Husband=Father, and Female=Woman=Wife=Mother. He uses the terms to refer to essentially 4 people within the context of his answer yet the message and the meaning is clear and unambiguous as he states it. The issue is can his claim be refuted through objective, observable, testable, and verifiable data that is coherent and corresponds to reality. That is where we must make a cultural choice to agree with Jesus and Holy Scripture or choose to disagree with Jesus and Holy Scripture. When you make your choice ensure that you have reasons that are logical, coherent, and which correspond to reality. Psalms 51:6 "Surely You (Speaking to God) desire truth in the inmost being; You teach me wisdom in the inmost place."

[@sarahsays194]

Well put!

[@MrSeedi76]

​@@sarahsays194 not really. Jesus also told us of "eunuchs" for the kingdom of God. It's hilarious how people think "the Bible is clear" on these issues when that's really not the case. I can't wrap my head around the fact that I see preachers saying things like "homosexuality and video games are sinful" and completely ignoring what Jesus actually preached about. Sometimes I wonder if these people actually read the Bible let alone understand it.

[@waynemershon4622]

This is not one of those issues in which Christians need to "meet people where they are at". Rather, we need to be blunt, unambiguous and unflinching in simply stating the truth and letting the pieces fall where they may and without apology. Sensitivity as it is known today has destroyed the witness of the church. At the end of the day, we all have a choice: get with God's program or own the consequences in eternity.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

i'm wondering where this idea that hell is torment came from. satan and god had a falling out, satan rejected god presumably. so if i reject god, i'm satan's ally surely? why would my pal want to torment me? burning christians alive, sure i can see that, but if i sell my soul to satan, and now i'm an amazing guitar player, why would he burn his investment? if i reject god and satan rejected god then it's christians satan wants to burn, not me. there will be two heavens, one boring one where you just suck up to god for eternity, and satan's heaven, a fun palace where the artists, musicians, writers and comedians go.

[@mugglescakesniffer3943]

I am andro ace so I have no use for sex, no sex drive. I like being free but that is for me and I think I am ok.

[@edeancozzens3833]

In wisdom literature as in Proverbs there are instances if binary verses where the first line initiates and the second line compliments. I wonder if those are God's masculine voice followed by a response from the feminine. I'd like to see these scriptures read in this way by a man and wife to hear how that sounds. Maybe should be read that way in fellowships to illustrate the unity and diversity and to affirm both.

[@adamcosper3308]

Sean seems like such a nice guy. He's helping spread bigotry but I'm sure he's not trying to be bad. That's why I always remember to love the Christian and hate the Christianity.

[@edeancozzens3833]

In the Bible this topic falls in the area of wisdom literature. The Song of Solomon as an example where we have a whole book about male and female interactions. A whole book! Then Proverbs 7 and parts of Ecclesiastes 7 describe a badly functioning female that leads to the destruction of the masculine. The movie THE HOUSE OF GUCCI perfectly illustrates the bad feminine in a true life story. Right down to the last verse of Prov 7. She had him killed. Bad gender relationships are horribly destructive to both and to children.

[@oliverjamito9902]

What is a little Child born "i" like many have gone through suffering! Through the pressures of Life. Gone through going after feeling that don't bring true rest but strife and separation from God of life of the Living. Like many! Why? Many crying out concerning suffering. Mixed crying out! Some will point fingers nor to blame my "AM"! You will always sitteth upon thy THRONE! Our God of the Living can ye feel our suffering? Unseen to be...seen. For Who sitteth gave HIS only SON OF MAN. Through HIM, by HIM, and for HIM. His Vineyards intent to be SAVE! For all his Offsprings preserve and all his meeks will dwell in as promised! My Hosts and my Beautiful shared "i" AM come forth! Shared "i" AM what is life given? "Conversations"! INDEED. Now remember from thee both! My Beautiful who ye will say who "i" AM? Heirs Hosts will say can the ALPHA be trusted with confidence to raise an infant WOMEN?

[@edeancozzens3833]

Great job men.

[@mirandarogers3595]

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

[@MrSeedi76]

Very true but I wonder how that relates to the video?

[@mirandarogers3595]

@@MrSeedi76 it does God words need to be everywhere because everyone is a sinner.

[@edeancozzens3833]

We can learn about gender just by observing it all through creation.

[@MrSeedi76]

I wonder what is meant by that. Would you include animals as part of creation? What about bonobos for instance?

[@claudinearce9109]

How can a man feel like a woman if he has never been a woman before?!!! I cannot say, I feel like having chocolate ice cream if I have never tried it before. They may feel something happening in them but not something as extreme as feeling something tbey have no idea what that means...

[@RM-xr8lq]

gender is a social construct we studied the abrahamic tribe in school, so we understand them pretty well. many of them believe in 2 genders, they actually just statically assign at birth to a reductionist model of sexual reproductive role. not that hard to understand their binary system, even if it is a little primitive. we also studied their views on evolution and age of the universe.... yeaaaa in the end of the day, they are allowed to believe earth is X years old and there are Y genders, that is part of cultural relativism! though our scientific literature is going to adopt a view based on observation and the material world instead

[@oliverjamito9902]

Likewise thank you my BEAUTIFUL able to tame my Heart and mind! For the "AM" knows? Who searches the Hearts and Minds of the little child born "i" AM. Able to tame Noone can Able!

[@MrWynne-zb4kp]

While I enjoy these talks that deal with difficult issues and how Christian doctrine looks at them, I'm not sure that this discussion was all that helpful when dealing with the topic of gender and the Bible. Too many of the questions were answered with statements predicated on feelings as authority to reinforce the bibles doctrine on man and woman. The same argument justifies someone who would feel differently about it and it doesn't gain more authority just because you have an interpretation of the Bible to back you up, especially if the other person doesn't take it as an authority. Arguments of tradition or natural order falk flat as they aren't proof enough towards what's right and are logical fallacies. Too much of this was guys just agreeing what the church told them and that the new is bad without much real justification to back their claim besides their own personal experiences. It isn't helpful when deciding what to do on an issue if you only use one book as authority on what your opinion should be.

[@MrSeedi76]

The biblical opinion should simply be, "love thy neighbor", everything else is interpretation. And I don't see much love in Christianity especially in the US today. It seems it's all about culture wars, fighting the "woke", whatever that may be, hating on the LGBTQ community or saying nonsense like "video games are sinful and Harry Potter endorses witch craft" 😂. No wonder people no longer care about the Christian message and they (evangelicals) need right wing catholic judges to strip women of the right to their own body. It's shameful what Christianity looks like today. I rarely hear anyone quoting Jesus at all. It's all about the OT or Paul when it comes to these issues because evangelicals especially like to cherry pick their way through the Bible to bolster up their worldview.

[@krizilloo2538]

Here’s a great interview for balance: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rKDNepaflNKsfdU

[@oliverjamito9902]

Who are ye talking too? Unseen nor seen! Came with time given. Now can humility approach time nor many have forgotten! Took a HOLY BLOOD stains! For the little Child born "i". Prepared the Way for the little Child born "i". Some will say, who are you?

[@kevinkelly2162]

The only confusion is that a lot of people think other peoples' lifestyle is their concern. Mind your own business.

[@goor1322]

Then why do those "other people" try to force me to agree with them through persecution, intimidation and fascist behavior, attacking one's character and livelihood who want no part of their subjective thoughts that is not *valid* or *binding* on anyone else but themselves? Because they want everyone, and I mean everyone everywhere to objectively agree with their subjective thoughts. That is the very idea of Totalitarianism. Otherwise it wouldn't be an issue. The very fact that it is, means that it is being enforced objectively on everyone when it's subjective in nature.

[@KathrineJKozachok]

9:05 - 10:50 God-designed reality vs. feelings

[@lionheartapologetics4914]

God loves every human and we are all made in His perfect image. We need to treat every person with grace, but we cannot sacrifice the truth in the issue. LGBT identities reject our God-given identity, design, and purpose. Our anatomy tells us what gender we are. Our bodies do not lie to us. Jesus spoke clearly on the issue. He spoke in Genesis 1 & 2, Matthew 19, and Mark 10. God made them male and female. A man will leave his father and mother and become one flesh with his wife. He commanded them to be fruitful and multiply. It takes a man and woman to comply with and conform to all of those things.

[@mugglescakesniffer3943]

I would tell you to sit back down if you were in as much pain as I am in.

[@mchristr]

I don't know about your pain but I know the One who gives ultimate comfort. Jesus is described as a man of sorrows, acquainted with grief. He knows us intimately--including our pain--and has demonstrated his love for us at the Cross. His invitation to you is always open, and he's ready and willing to pour grace and mercy into your life.

[@mugglescakesniffer3943]

@@mchristr I am glad you get comfort from your religion and beliefs. I however have tested this and found your statement to be false for me.

[@evanhadkins5532]

"Objective" isn't a biblical category. We have it on good authority that some are born as eunuchs - not contemplated in Genesis. In Gen.2 people are made for marriage. St Paul says in his judgement it is better to be celibate at the moment - do we think he was wrong? Our intellect has been effected by the Fall too - even in the thinking in this conversation perhaps. If women are to embrace identity with the male Jesus . . . Jesus had some counter-culture views on who were his brothers, sisters and mother - significantly, in my view, he doesn't list father among the human relations he speaks about. Paul's guidance - giving their lives for their wives (this goes well beyond responsibility, provision and protection). Does Paul and Job (being manly) not apply to women? History is cultural too (including sexual stereotypes).

[@MrSeedi76]

Great post! Thanks 😊.

[@PurplePink-Roblox]

"God's Truth" Dude, Christianity is literally a myth.

[@user-dk7su3lp6e]

its not fucking hard. theres only 2. you can only be one of 2.

[@johnmatthew536]

EVERY HOMOSEXUALS NEED TO PRAY TO SAINT JOSEPH FOR HELP...HE IS THE MODEL OF MANHOOD AND FATHERHOOD..ST. JOSEPH WILL HELP THEM BE FREE FROM SAME SEX ATTRACTION....AND I HEARD HUNDRED AND THOUSAND OF SUCCESS STORIES

[@MrSeedi76]

Pray the gay away doesn't work and there aren't "thousands of success stories" 😂. Just keep lying to yourself and others.

[@frankwhelan1715]

The bible writers were VERY uninformed,to put it kindly.

[@cathyphillips9120]

Bible book writers were perfectly informed, inspired by God.

[@kevinkelly2162]

@@cathyphillips9120 So why did they think the Earth was flat?

[@goor1322]

@@kevinkelly2162 They didn't.

[@MrSeedi76]

​@@goor1322 they did. And they also thought it has 4 corners.

[@garganroo3605]

Your desires would land you in prison, but the reason you don't act on them is cuz jesus? And this is something y'all laugh about? What kind of person thinks like this

[@kevinkelly2162]

Most christians seemingly. Some even say Jesus is the only thing stopping them from murder too. Weird people. They don seem to understand why we atheists don just go around killing people. I suppose when a lot of normal things are called sinful your head gets full of weird imaginings.

[@micah1464]

The reason humans don’t act on their desires at all times is much more complicated than ‘cuz Jesus’ and nobody is claiming otherwise. God gave us a moral law, a natural sense of right and wrong. And there’re social normals on top of that. What the Holy Spirit’s transformative work in Christians’ hearts *does* do is help us to adhere to that moral law more perfectly as we grow closer to Him.