The Absolute State of the MMORPG Genre...

[@AshesofCreation]

NO PRESSURE!!!! JK, We are working day and night to make the dream a reality my friend. Always love your take on the genre, your thoughts represent a large portion of the MMORPG playerbase. We will continue to update monthly on our progress and keep the MMORPG community's feedback and desires at the forefront of our alpha testing. We are rapidly expanding the team with major hiring rounds! Help us spread the word to the finest MMORPG veteran developers out there!

[@escarretada]

YOU ARE MY LAST HOPE, LOVE YOUUUUUUUUUU

[@TheLazyPeon]

You got this 💪🔥

[@spahghettiboi4150]

Fancy Seeing a part of the AoC team here. I'm definitely excited for the mage class.

[@AlexGorlik]

I wish i could skip time just so i can already play AoC , keep the amazing work !

[@pandar362]

Thank you for what you and you're team are doing Steven.

[@KiraTV1]

Oh hey that's me. The conversations we have had over the 18 months I've known you have been great, I know we are both of the same mind when it comes to this genre and you did a fantastic job articulating that. I'm glad you're embracing branching out and you know I'll always be here in support. Much love brother and thanks for the shout out. ❤

[@129das]

I think there is hope why do you think many developers are going back the roots of an MMORPG because the certain system is not working it should grow again The writing was on the wall this was going to happen

[@sickasshandy3543]

Right? This video conveyed a lot of our thoughts exactly

[@happy_camper]

My two favorite content creators in this segment. You guys both rock.

[@blippedyblop]

Enough of the foreplay, just do a collab stream together.

[@amarodsv]

kira is here, wow, never thought seeing you here, i hope you got better from that vaccine ^^ edit: do a collab already xD

[@waysideturnip7238]

I just like listening to you talk. Film anything bro! Your channel is hella chill.

[@no_alias_for_me]

I don't know what it is but his voice and how he talks is really relaxing. It also is kinda nostalgic to me since I'm watching him for a good 5 years now. Back when doing my homework was my biggest worry.

[@HeroSpiderman]

Im in the same camp. Just here for the voice. Content doesnt matter to me.

[@manuuguerrero97]

Isn’t Gaming Sessions out of the table, it was pretty interesting.

[@c2lhu]

This

[@TheHi_King]

@@no_alias_for_me same, I was 15 when I started watching him, just getting into exams for highschool. I'm now finishing my bachelor of science at University now and I still find him so chill to watch and unwind.

[@sarahyambao6454]

I enjoy playing MMORPG on private servers. Mostly cause the community interacts more somehow.

[@actionbash2]

How much more interaction is that? I recently started up WoW classic TBC with a few friends and the world feels so dead beyond the three people who happen to be leveling in your area. If private servers provide a better experience then I'd love to know.

[@lorcand6670]

How do you join private servers?

[@tylerdog3]

They are more interactive because that is what they have going for them. Owners/devs focus more on player and community interaction because they dont ahve the ability to just throw added content at it. A lot of Pserver owners are people who are just sick of the way MMO's are going nowadays and take there fav game back to its original roots.

[@yawarapuyurak3271]

This video isn't a guy shitting on MMORPG, this is a video of a guy begging for a miracle.

[@fredy2041]

FFXIV is actualy very good

[@gonjar5211]

Miracle for what? For someone to make the perfect game? Sorry but that is never gonna happen. There are a lot of MMO out there that's really good, WoW, BDO, FFXIV are probably one of the best ones currently. It's just a matter of choosing one of them. The problem is this youtuber just can't decide to stick to one and makes it look like "MMO's are dead" while it's far from even that and so everyone else who watches these videos are literally made to think the same. Do your own research and you'll see. Don't just watch and base everything from a single youtube video. We don't need new MMO's made every year.

[@florguedes8415]

@@gonjar5211 Wow and ffxiv are lobby games, the world is dead, people stick in the city using looking for group for dungens, pvp , raids, that s it, for me isn´t an mmorpg anymore, you can do every content solo without any risk... BDO, great combat, great graphics, empty endgame....

[@fredy2041]

@@florguedes8415 Dude, FFXIV is really hood, what the hell are you talking about?

[@gonjar5211]

@@florguedes8415 See, this is what I'm talking about lol. You're one of the problems I'm talking about. If you can't even see that well I'm sorry that you can't enjoy any MMO at all because you're too delusional. Have fun finding that perfect MMO that will literally never exist.

[@Khrazegaming]

"comparing trash to slightly less trashy trash in an effort to figure out what's the best trash" - Peon the God circa 2021 I will forever remember this quote imho

[@roys3769]

Agreed!

[@kristiyandimitrov4713]

haha he absolutely nailed it

[@Ramiell777]

I’ve been saying this about rpgs for years

[@faeantiks]

Same

[@gergokerekes4550]

@@Ramiell777 then you did not play any of the great new rpgs dude.

[@snowfall6046]

The MMORPG genre: most unloved, near forgotten genre RTS genre: "first time ?"

[@AlexanderMartinez-kd7cz]

RTS isn't unloved though, people still love the few RTS we have. MMOs are way worse, even MMO fans hate MMOs by now.

[@domomonstero3077]

So true, why cant we just get a bigger more ambitious version of AoE or AoM or C&C.

[@أحمدخلف-ش1ز]

I gave up on mmorpg just gonna wait for book of travels.

[@theactualashley]

I mean... at least MMOs and RTSs have more than 3 options. *cough* MOBAs *cough*

[@spartanalex9006]

The RTS genre still has a very active player base, we just haven't had a big release in a few years.

[@C4MG1RL]

"Who plays an MMO for the story" Me, I do. Then again I also play mostly solo... So...

[@ethansou]

Same

[@ragnargunnin7989]

same :)

[@mrfrupo]

So.. you aren't really interested in an MMO. It CAN have good story but that's not the point.

[@xcvxcvcxvxvcq]

then why play MMOs at all instead of single player

[@C4MG1RL]

@@xcvxcvcxvxvcq "Mostly solo" I like to level up at my own pace but I still do group content and like the trading side in some games. Going out to grind missions or gather materials isn't really a fun group activity. "I play mostly solo" =/= "I don't interact with the MMO environment"

[@PlumPoko]

As MMOs progressed technologically, they forgot the "social" part and became a numbers game.

[@veritasabsoluta4285]

Exactly, WoW classic is one of those rare games that perfects that part

[@liviubostan7229]

@@veritasabsoluta4285 Bs,there are more games that do that. Classic isn't the only one.

[@jacobphong7972]

@@veritasabsoluta4285 maplestory in my opinion is another good one.

[@wholewordmade]

I feel like the players forgot it just as much as the devs

[@veritasabsoluta4285]

@@jacobphong7972 Edited my comment

[@longjimmy2620]

"... we have been fed crap for so long that people can't even imagine what a good MMORPG would be..." he nailed it.

[@rexmundi273]

We have Runescape.

[@Newcreation1114]

Relates to government too

[@aidanmattys7488]

@@rexmundi273 which has the exact issue as everything else. The issue is that for the immersion to work, both players AND the world need to be affected by the decisions of players. Having enemy npc groups every 20 ft that just respawn every 30 seconds and having dungeons available at any given time inexplicably with no source or reason means that a player's actions, or a guild's, has no affect on the world. Without the risk of missing out (in a good way. Most MMOs that have timed events have stupid tier systems that reward senseless grind, but not intelligence, timing, and strategy), and that there is actually a way to make the shitty world better, it just becomes the same boring slog as everything else. Content needs to be made with the intention of nuance, it shouldn't be made with the intention of.everyone managing to experience and benefit off of it. Instead, there needs to be enough variety of content rather so although most people won't be able to experience most things, their playstyle and time investment can bring a lot of enjoyment as well. That's what is required for world interaction (and means the very concept of dungeons needs to change. It is such a stupid system). With player interaction, simply having better UI that requires a more personal presence in a guild/clan instead of a few tabs is necessary for the immersion. Otherwise, new players never get into the interaction aspect further than just doing random co-OP with names they don't give af about. The entire MMORPG genre is just in such a state of disrepair and stagnation that it needs a complete reset from the ground up in concept in order to get it right with modern technology and capability

[@rexmundi273]

@@aidanmattys7488 I was being sarcastic. I just play shooters btw.

[@user-sb7wj1vn4x]

@@rexmundi273 Yeah most people don't feel the aesthetics and gameplay of Runescape but I agree it rocks the player between player part. When I logged into wow classic when it launched it felt like a time-warp and I really enjoyed having a Friendlist that just kept on growing the further I went and just greeting everyone when coming online.

[@joey6417]

Without an actual thriving community behind it, most MMOs are just worse versions of single player RPG Open World games where you can occasionally run into other players. Fuck, some of them even cost more money to maintain.

[@mellowman1020]

Thats exactly what they are at this point. They kept watering them down until we got to this.

[@Remianen]

Bingo! Without "critical mass", most MMOs suffer because there aren't enough people around to be "emergent gameplay" (h/t Smed). Heck, even EVE had to bend the knee just to get/keep a certain number of players playing.

[@joey6417]

Long read ahead: An extreme example of the fall of MMORPGs is AQW (a literal flash game mmo). I remember having much more fun playing AQW in its golden days compared to single player rpg games that were objectively better. The sense of community and the events which centralized on the players got me hooked. The wars were especially fun since the players actually got to influence the way a specific storyline would progress. It was limited due to being a flash game but it was ahead of its time as an mmo. As LazyPeon put it, I was excited of its further improvement in the future, looking forward to it progressing into an overall better game. But it didn't. All of that is gone now and the game is a shell of its former self as it lost all of the aspects that gave it a sense of being Massively Multiplayer (all the content in the game can now be done solo, no more player interaction with the story sine it's all fetch quests, endgame is all just nonsensical grinding favoring botters resulting in 90% of the playerbase being bots). The game, like some other mmos now struggles to keep itself somewhat 'alive' through an IV drip filled with cash whales who will literally pay any amount of money for cosmetics for a game that they feel an ungodly amount of loyalty to because they've invested too much in it to quit.

[@Elimbi1]

I think the deal breaker for me really is the amount of time I would have to potentially have to invest in such a game. This wasn't such a huge issue when I was like 16, but now I'm 26 and responsibilities are slowly creeping up on me.

[@juvenileygo]

@@Elimbi1 ive played mmo with dads in my guild, they always have time for gvg every week. Some mmo doesnt require you to invest big time. I just need mmo to channel my boredom with jobs and routinrs, thats it

[@supersupeng]

Do I play MMORPGs? No. Do I even play games? Hardly. Did I feel this man’s passion for the genre? Absolutely.

[@Banana-cc5rx]

@@thesagaofblitz did you gave him the wrong link lmao

[@steveguy3]

Is this a sponsored segment? Yes.

[@funbox2150]

passion or fear of a lack of content? Guy jumps from game to game, encouraging one only to backtrack and say 'why i left the game', then come back 3 months later with 'why i returned to (game)'. Lmao.

[@lgnd2k3]

It's sad because MMO's can make amazing games but they just aren't as financially viable as the genres dominating the market right now, it's a huge investment that may or may not get a return for a variety of reasons.

[@wokeacola2497]

i dont know they usually have subscriptions and they make pay to win dlcs every 3 months . how much money do they need

[@EJ_Red]

@@wokeacola2497 The issue is that even with subscription fees and DLCs companies will get very greedy with money and try to funnel in more cash as possible, hence why we have stuff like in-game stores (Whether it be for cosmetics or pay-to-win items and buffs).

[@tremblence]

They need Diablo 2 Loot System.

[@RialuCaos]

For large companies, a huge investment equates to minimizing the amount of "risk" involved which just translates into doing something that other "successful" companies have done. Large companies have no interest in creating something that will actually revitalize the genre (because that requires actual risk + artistic integrity) while small companies don't have the financial backing required to create MMOs.

[@dharmdevil]

mobile gaming ruined MMO

[@I_am_ENSanity]

The reason there are so few MMOs now a days is because it's probably the hardest genre to get right and the easiest one to utterly screw up. Also, I can't imagine how much it costs to make a good AAA MMO.

[@Haz3Nation]

Ur right about that. So far Lost Ark is at top of my list. From what I played in russia...im hooked. So hard to get shit right. So many MMOS try and fail never to be thought of again.

[@KattReen]

I think you're right. It's probably the one genre that requires the most effort and resources poured into quality and quantity of content to make a good game. PVE content(which is what most people that play mmorpgs mainly focus on) usually isn't as replayable as PVP is before it gets repetitive and boring, so it helps if a game has both a long journey of content to play through to reach the end, and a fair variety of endgame grinds that are built onto very regularly with content patches. It's very expensive to make a good, sustainable, traditional mmorpg.

[@devilmaygame8497]

A lot of failed studios in the past 5 years tried to make one.

[@slippytoad9399]

That's part of it, but the problem with the genre as a whole as an income generator is that devs want to make a game that sits right in the middle to attract the absolute widest player base. It's all about appealing to more (subbing) players than actually making a quality game.

[@Supersonic]

This. Gotta be realistic, imagine trying to pitch a mmo to a publisher nowadays. I think we will have to get over the money factories that battle royal is first. Also i feel like peon is overlooking how much people can suck. People will grief, and people will min max the fun out of anything. Creating a system on the scale he wants is going to take legit 200 iq planning

[@AmbitionMusic]

pain

[@Lygartz]

Ambition!!! Big fan!

[@penguins0301]

pain

[@Bobobox95]

Well said

[@EtamirTheDemiDeer]

:0 It’s you! Thank you for your lovely mixes, they help me sleep

[@CBRN-115]

Peko

[@vape9546]

"Look at Bless, it's shut down!" "Yeah because it's shit!"

[@asherrfacee]

There have been lots of innovations in MMO's, but all of the innovation has been in the form of monetization strategies.

[@Sorain1]

That does seem to be a huge part of it. The money is seen as existing in monetization, not in making a better game. Because of the huge and ongoing costs of MMOs, innovation that isn't promising a return of more money simply doesn't get made. You don't get the possible niche MMO's, because the costs are too high to start up one and so they can't muster the cash to do it. Experimental MMO's? Never going to happen while costs are this high. You need cheaper servers and cheaper SDK's, possibly with better automatic content generation tools to really make experimental MMO development cheap enough to see it explode in productivity.

[@Albumneko]

@Dam Sen ffxiv is monetizated as fuck and the Zombies fanboys still defending its monetization

[@bol8122]

@@Albumneko not really I dont like the subscriptions but its nothing crazy or over the top

[@fredy2041]

@@Albumneko This is a lie, are you really going to lie?

[@BW-CZ]

@@Albumneko FFXIV isn't monetized at all beyond its subscription system. All you can use your money for is some mounts, cosmetics and emotes (though most people just use free to acquire gear as it's better), you can't even buy a single item that has an actual gameplay purpose. Not a single one. You know what monetization means right?

[@NekoBatyx]

This reminds me a few months ago, when I tried to get back into Maplestory. I saw a group of players fighting a boss out in an open field. I helped to attack the boss, but the other players stopped hitting the boss and told me to go away. The boss eventually despawned because I couldn't dps it by myself in time. The players defamed my character before leaving and I was so confused. My guild members later told me that the boss rewards is split between the players that killed it, and the other players didn't want my help for that reason. Way to kill participation.

[@bluememe4652]

Honestly that's the games fault tbh, it just makes you to get as strong as you can so that you don't rely on anyone and get all the loot yourself

[@NekoBatyx]

@@bluememe4652 Yea I noticed the change over the years. Every class has become more mobile and self-sufficient (in otherwords, OP). Most players do boss runs solo because the meso rewards is split between the players in the party. No point in having a party of different classes to make up for each others weaknesses when you can have a single strong character solo everything himself. It reduces the need for matchmaking and allows every player to progress through the game by themselves. It makes sense since the playerbase has shrunk so much that it's difficult to find a party for most party quests now, but those were some of the most fun I had in Maplestory when I played it 10 years ago.

[@bluememe4652]

@@NekoBatyx there's also the fact that tanks and healers are rarely complimented and rewarded for their efforts. It makes people want to only bring Characters that deal damage, so that they, too, get complimented and rewarded.

[@NekoBatyx]

@@bluememe4652 Nah, priests were quite sought after in Maplestory before because not many people were willing to play them but they brought a lot of utility to a party. I played a priest a few months ago and it's hard enough to find a party to play with, but it really does feel like you're not pulling your weight in a party boss fight since a lot of other classes don't require your help to survive and rather have another DPS class to help kill the boss faster.

[@bluememe4652]

@@NekoBatyx I don't play MMOs much (didn't have a powerful device) so my experience is very limited, I'm just basing it off of logic lol

[@FangPT]

"The MMO community can't even imagine what a good MMO would look like" - Damn... that hit hard...

[@plagues-haze-3987]

I say BDO is the best hack BDO is the only game i love grinding on i think BDO is for potheads tho

[@lovedeepthandi3154]

Tbh i think ashes of creation comes Really close to a perfect mmo for most of us hopefully it won't be a huge dissappointment

[@AkiRa22084]

@@plagues-haze-3987 I prefer Tera Online, but yeah BDO is nice. I wonder how will BnS 2 turn out.

[@gamingch4538]

@@AkiRa22084 bns2 is mobile game lol

[@AkiRa22084]

@@gamingch4538 So? Genshin Impact turned out great despite that.

[@MrDoot-hj2ir]

"Who plays a MMO for the story?" Final Fantasy XIV players: - I heard you talking shit.

[@Dewkeeper]

"Smells like bitch in here!" - Admiral Merlwyb, probably

[@Banana-cc5rx]

pretty sure even WoW fans deny that sentence. Look at Blizzcon everytime it's time for lore and Q&A, people roar. If lore doesn't matter, Alliances and Hordes doesn't matter. Nothing basically matters if the story is shit in an MMO. It's just a grind simulator then.

[@Snahzberry666]

😂

[@greenchilistudioz4537]

@@Banana-cc5rx What are you talking about?!

[@Banana-cc5rx]

@@greenchilistudioz4537 learn to read?

[@haz-mattstudio6074]

"It's a Korean game, I know this fun is not going to last." Too true

[@Goldy01]

Tera has been great for years, wdym?

[@zenmastakilla]

@@Goldy01 Tera is for R-worders

[@SlyMelodica.]

alots of the best mmos are korean with gacha systems holding them back

[@Hawks4141]

Im not particularly experienced with mmos. I play a lot of BDO but thats really it. Whats wrong with korean mmos?

[@zenmastakilla]

@@Hawks4141 This isn't reddit, bud.

[@richangelo9075]

TheLazyPeon - “who tf plays MMORPGs for the story?” Me who has all the DLCs on ESO purely for the story line - 🤚 😥

[@wanderingmiqote9606]

Also a lot of people who play FF14

[@mr.nobody896]

Also guild war 2

[@mfwiloseintouhoubossfights9305]

I just cheese it during the free DLC time

[@tomasjirasek803]

SECRET WORLD

[@Ndoelicious]

I mean, how do you "play" MMORPGs without their riveting story or lore? Without lore or a sense of belonging, I might as well play MOBA or single-player games with multiplayer modes. The story MAKES the world --the core of RPG itself!

[@anacronrealz]

Me at 2007, omg new wow expansion is coming! Imagine what we will have at 2020 and beyond! Me at 2021, omg classic tbc is coming! Yesss

[@Argo257]

Kinda sad that blizzard is only capable to excite players with contant that is over 10 years old :/

[@Riclaval]

it's not classic when adding expansions -changemymind

[@ravenangeline9042]

lets be honest, wow single handedly killed the genere with the overwhelming success it had in the beginning, as a result so many mmos tried to copy and recreate that experience that they destroyed themselves, and as a result we now have a dying genere, where as a lot of other games like cod, halo, league of legends, overwatch you can copy the idea and add your own twist and still have a decent product, however trying to be a clone as an mmorpg just doesn't work, its why the genere is in such an awful state rn....

[@Swordkiller55623]

not to mention that unlike games like cod halo etc, MMORPGS rely on continued support and constant updates to keep people interested, including subscription based payments in most cases. Due to just the sheer size of games like WoW, FF14 and Guild Wars 2, most new MMOs struggle to even get a passing glance thanks to the whole genre being made to keep a customer looking at only one of them period. It's a game design that refuses to let even a single customer go because if it happens, the MMO dies most of the time. How do you dare even get into that kind of market?

[@ravenangeline9042]

@@Swordkiller55623 this aswell

[@Snahzberry666]

While we’re being honest... WOW was a placeholder while Square and WotC get their shit together. We all know WotC never will, so there’s FFXIV anyways.

[@marc23009]

@@Swordkiller55623 I mean GW2 is sub FREE and thats kinda a cool game IMO. Cant rly compare GW2 to sub based games since 99,99% of sub based games get lots of new content.

[@kaorumugen991]

@@Swordkiller55623 Yeah, takes balls to even consider entering the market, but I still think the main problem is that the few who do decide to take that risk then immediately shoot themselves in the foot by trying to play it safe and just replicate WoW, which inevitably results in just a poor ripoff with zero innovation. You can't beat something that's been on the market and constantly expanding for 16 years now at their own game. So yeah... doesn't make much sense. You take on the very high risk of getting into the genre, but then flip 180 degrees and try to play it extremely safe by just replicating a successful game. That'll never work, and as long as developers don't understand that, all we'll get is generic WoW ripoffs. Which is a huge shame, since MMOs are the genre with the most unrealized potential IMO.

[@SirBenji28]

My whole childhood has been mmorpg's, Honestly heart-breaking seeing mmo's not getting enough love nowadays, The new generations are taking over the Battle Royale genre and it's leaving mmo's in the dust

[@curlyhairedgamer]

people just want mindless action and dont want substance anymore and it saddens me

[@Xero_Kaiser]

@@curlyhairedgamer If MMOs provided actual substance, you might be on to something. Most of them have become shallow, brain-dead timesinks that are constantly digging in your pockets with endless MTX. They have no one to blame but themselves for pushing their audience away.

[@_EldenRing_]

@@Xero_Kaiser Very, very, very true. In fact it is so true that it hurts a little.

[@129das]

PvP games will have always out shin MMO’s. From stuff like Halo, League of Legends, or Fortnite. But it a different player base there maybe some crossover But pvp players are pvp player

[@CouchCit]

It's not that they don't get love, they've gotten too much love: the genre is oversaturated with similar and mediocre games.

[@FluxMachina]

I actually don't like MMOs I'm just here for all the "Jumpuuuh" action

[@hatchera]

"BIG damage"

[@danielalorbi]

Ayy one of us! The last mmo I played was adventure quest, circa. 2006

[@LuisSantos-vz7jy]

i'm just here for the Big damage :D

[@pruzarias]

And his fear of spider

[@Schmorgus]

The "filthy casuals" have spoken xD

[@llilric3]

My issue with MMORPG’s is the storyline honestly. I hate how they all feed you a story as if it were single player and you, by yourself, singlehandedly saved the world and they give you an item to commemorate the event then it drops you into a hub with the rest of the players who just did the same thing and are sporting the exact same item you have. I wish they’d build an original storyline meant to be completed by a large number of people and really incorporate the fact that you’re just a smaller part of a grander whole that’s working together.

[@Exposetheworld]

This.

[@novac1990]

Yeah it's like west world where it's pretty much a theme park. They want everyone to feel equal so they dumb the game down and it waters down the whole game.

[@XBullitt16X]

Yeeep, completely agreed. Would be nice to have more MMOs take into account other players in the world and that you're not the "chosen one" despite ther being mllions of other "chosen ones," it would bs less immersion breaking.

[@lordmawkish1286]

You folk lunatically keep proposing stuff like this when what it truly, ultimately, boils down to is that you want a world in which the story adapts individually to every player out of hundreds of thousands, and still has an authentic quality instead of it just being players doing their preferred story-less sandbox gameplay tasks. You don't want a game, you want an actual matrix experience set in fantasy world, a second life. A team of 1000 writers investing 100 years couldn't make that vision a reality, people would still quit after a few weeks.

[@llilric3]

@@lordmawkish1286 Whoa that is quite a grand vision 😅 I guess I really need to widen my horizon because I was totally thinking about just a giant community goal. Elite Dangerous comes to mind with its system of tasking players to collect/attack/defend/visit a certain goal and depending on how many players do so advances the games story as a whole in a certain direction for everyone. You should check it out.

[@JustWatch94]

Every mmorpg I play feels like I’m financing a car that will take me 5+ years to complete 🤦🏾

[@doublebigMark]

It's been years. I still Google "top mmorpg [insert year]."

[@xClippo]

are you me?

[@cenciqt6045]

@@xClippo damn man. We are all so similar lol I've been googling that statement every few months for the past 10 years lol

[@N7sensei]

Same... I'm playing GW2 after a terrible Shadowlands expansion. I can't decide which game is more trash, but that's what we have...

[@cenciqt6045]

@@N7sensei I honestly feel like shadowlands is one of the best iterations of modern WoW but yeah. It's not like the old days

[@Jubanen12]

Yeah... I get the itch every now and again.. its just ffXIV, Guild wars 2, ESO, Wow etc in same or maybe little altered order lol... how exciting. :P Peon has a point, and I agree with him.

[@ishirutaekakura308]

"who tf plays mmorpg for story" I love a good story in a game and if a mmorpg presents one that's awesome.

[@Rataldo20]

ffxiv

[@Snahzberry666]

@@Rataldo20 Most def. 300 hours of it!

[@AwdrevCZ]

and do you play the story alone or mmo?

[@budgetstylestories8357]

Swtor

[@Bungee_Gum]

"Who plays mmorpg for story" hmm last time i checked most single player rpg games have a story specially the old school ones, an mmorpg is still an rpg but online mmorpg's came from single player rpg's so obviously people want to play them for the story just because it has "MMO" in the front doesn't stop it from being an rpg

[@koob837]

RTS Genre: “First time?”

[@NathanBonline]

RTS is way more dead than MMORPG

[@MRDaved]

I feel that

[@MRDaved]

@Honudes Gai There could be more. Especially with ultimate battle sim 2. If they licensed their tech we could have huge cool rts games with massive scale

[@devilmaygame8497]

Not wrong at all, more niche than mmos and is a gigantic time sink as well.

[@VargusDread]

@Honudes Gai I get that, I was the same way with Warcraft 3+custom games for a long time. I like AOE2 as well, but none of my friends play it anymore :(

[@MasterTeeee]

You're basically describing sandbox mmos. So eve online, or albion online. They come with their own problems though. MMORPGs are great, but they have to ultimately focus on one of two aspects. They either funnel you in to a story, with lots of instanced gameplay, a la WoW or FFIV. Or they give you very little of hand holding, and just provide tools to effectively make your own content, a la eve or albion. The real issue is that you can't mix the two together successfully, because they're like oil and water. Fundamentally different.

[@kingleeyy3134]

I have 400 hours in albion, and I want to love it, but I can't get over the pay to win gold system. If they removed that, I think it would be a great game.

[@dragon7689]

You should look into Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen

[@minarie2865]

Well...milk. Milk is an emulsion of essentially water and oil (among other things) that occurs naturally. So to take the analogy you can create a game that has both, but you can't just throw them together an stir. The developers have to carefully construct the whole game from the beginning around the combination of both as core essentiells of the game and not just throw them in as features. But...it is easier said than done.

[@collan580]

@@minarie2865 Yeah but its still 3% oil and mostly water. I played an FtP mmorpg game and it was great because of the social interactions and not because of the story. At the height of the community we had around a 1000 people fighting at the same time. We had major groups that decided politics in the game, it was awesome.

[@edwardwinkelman7988]

Sounds like what you want is a fantasy version of Eve Online.

[@Schmorgus]

EVE is kind of garbage though ;D

[@V2ULTRAKill]

EVEs problem is its not noob friendly at all

[@V2ULTRAKill]

@@aeonreign6456 the tutorials werent the problem though The community is, due to how quickly they will screw you over. The games economy is horrible for new players, this is coming from a longtime player, it is not noob friendly

[@osaifhsomething9072]

yes but a new one

[@vasiljambazov]

The fantasy version of EVE Oniline existed in 2004-2008 and it name was Lineage 2.

[@Dedition]

I honestly think EVERY MMO gamer thought as a kid, "I can't wait to see what MMOs are like in the next 10-15 years" then we, unfortunately, grew up to bs.

[@DarkAztaroth]

I spent most of my time on MMORPG forums, where we talked about all the new releases. With the variety of games from back then, my expectations were sky-high. Diablo 2, Ragnarok, Mabinogi, Silkroad, GW, RF online, CoH/CoV, Dungeon Fighter, DaOC, EQ, Maple Story, Runescape, FFXI, WoW + The tons of different types of online room based games like Gunbound, Grand chase, Rakion, GunZ, Vindictus being announced, etc. and the fact games were coming out ALL the time - yeah, yeah.. I did not see this drought coming.

[@Dedition]

@@DarkAztaroth Man, I feel you. My experience wasn't as extravagant as yours but I remember going on MMOHut and always being really excited for their latest MMO updates. From Dragon Knightn Archeage, The Secret Life, Dragon's Prophet, Revelations Online, Riders of Icarus & more. Every game I'd get really excited about until one day I just found myself bored of every new release. Knowing that everything will disappoint me. It feels hard to believe that the genre would stagnate so much in terms of inspiration and any attempt at pushing the envelope.

[@MadMaxJuggernaut]

@@DarkAztaroth wooow never thought I'd see someone say "Silkroad" outside of a silkroad video. I miss that game

[@prinstyrio0]

It's pretty sad and I don't think it'll get much better. I think one problem is that there's so much we expect in an MMO that requires soooo much work to implement, that there's little room for innovation, unless you forgo those classic features and dare innovate. We've seen MMOs do it and work, but honestly it's a "hit or miss" given how MMO's aren't really any indie projects and any innovation is a massive risk. Personally think VR is the only thing that can breath new air into MMO's. We all love MMO's and any RPG games for the immersive feeling of being in a fantastical world with strangers, friends and friends-yet-to-meet, so the next step would be to literally be there with everyone. That said VR is nowhere near to touch MMO's in such a way and it's something for the way off distant future, more than 10-15 years, but if there's anything that'll blow both VR and MMO's, it's combining the two.

[@xaultimateax]

MMOs are just too expensive to develop and not worth it when developers started seeing which games generate money. Simple as that. The post WoW release MMO hype between 2005-2015 were the golden years

[@Sekaro297]

Sadly yeah, that's true.. whilst I don't doubt the players would be more than willing to give up their money for a great game the risk of it not being "good" is too high for the companies.. a steady but low income is preferred to high risk high return income no matter where you go.

[@yourvenparianen5390]

The time investment needed to play mmorpgs also. Im honestly in my 30s working and i no longer have the time or energy to play or raid for 6 hours straight

[@lmmc7708]

Agreed..... But in future when people gets bored of current games which are in trend then again mmorpgs might again comes to life

[@belstar1128]

@@yourvenparianen5390 Not everyone is you don't play mmo's if you are working 18 hours a day in a shoe factory and have 20 kids.

[@destroyerinazuma96]

You're mostly right, though the are youtube videos on how to make an mmo and even independent people developing theirs. Once technology progresses it can become affordable to make an mmo. A small two people company could do it. It will be bare-bones and with 2006 graphics, but it will work.

[@taliesinhalliday2483]

There have been games with massive world bosses that needed the cooperation of several guilds. Only a few people could do these things and the majority of people were pushed out. Games have some of the things you described but only a few guilds get access due to the majority not being organised or skilled enough. Very few people can actually organise 40 people in a raid like in old warcraft.

[@maydayflowers]

Isn't that okay, though? Not every guild should be able to do the top tier of content, even. It exists for the challenge. Now if the top tier guilds were PKing others and preventing them from doing it via open PvP or something, that's another issue altogether ...

[@thatcuteboym]

Here’s the thing about your idea. As a pve only player, pve players don’t want to be forced to pvp. Ever.

[@lucasmorgan6856]

Fax

[@trashman1358]

100% agree. Sweet mother I hate fantasy pvp with an almost insane passion. As if it's a demeaning gaff - a piss take - of all that fantasy stands for. Battles in fantasy should be like Warhammer Total War - Napoleonic warfare with mud and muck. Magic and majestic creatures bringing true horror and terror to the battlefield. In MMO's it's a bunch of twee kids spamming jump, rapid firing numbers 1 to 9 while screaming: GET GUD! or OP! OP!!! It is the very worst of fantasy. I'm sorry - but I absolutely hate it.

[@aran4241]

The problem I have with PvP is MMO PvP never feels quite balanced due to power and feature creep, at least for games with PVX, since PvP tends to be a minor focus compared to games with more dedicated PvP systems, but then again this from a more PvE oriented players perspective so I do lack more comp knowledge so please take my thoughts with heaps of salt

[@kugelschreiber5678]

Say it louder for the people in the back! I for one actually love PVP and PVE, but I can empathize with your sentiment. Why force ANYONE to play a piece of content they're not interested in?

[@gakuyax]

So true

[@tingispingis]

RTS genre: "At least the MMO genre is alive enough for people to talk about it being dead FeelsBadMan"

[@wojtulacehoe5089]

Age of Empires IV have entered the chat

[@cwaldacwaldovic4572]

@@wojtulacehoe5089 As a Microsoft Store exclusive. I am sure all 50 people who play it are enjoying it though. It seems like a good game.

[@imyournme6632]

@@cwaldacwaldovic4572 Is that confirmed cause the beta was accessable through steam.

[@cwaldacwaldovic4572]

@@imyournme6632 I am not entirely sure, but it was said in announcement. Some time ago.

[@filipevasconcelos4409]

As a Dreamlords player from back in the day, maaaaaaan, i feel it

[@stepanfau6480]

"WoW could be a lobby game" dude this is so accurate

[@skeezixcodejedi]

This hurt :O

[@criminallettucewraps5207]

One thing that I think makes these intense and massive features hard is that it would require serious commitment and cooperation. I feel like new MMOs have made a streamlined leveling experience, which may be allowing casual people to get to max level, who may not want to do that or be skilled enough for it. I remember WoW being a commitment and a half just to get to max level, so by the time you were there you were committed to taking it serious. I also went from being a 13 year old with nothing but free time, to a 26 year old who doesn’t want to spend 10 hours a day playing WoW.

[@zomgl2pnoobffs]

World of Warcraft has been an empty world game since WotLK, and even then you could see the lobby system taking over. Private servers (and Classic to some extent) refilled the world with people doing stuff. Convenience features and “QOL” kills MMOs.

[@18ps3anos]

@@criminallettucewraps5207 Ruining a concept just to catter to grown up adults with less free time is not the way. I didn't like WoW because of its title name. I liked WoW because of its concept. The modern implementation doesn't mean anything to me since the concept was lost, although the name is the same. I honestly know many people that still play WoW because it's WoW - but for me, I'll just pass... I honestly would rather play clunky Everquest project 1999 than WoW shadowlands any day, and I never played EQ when I was younger.

[@criminallettucewraps5207]

@@18ps3anos I never said we should ruin the concept or cater to anyone. I’m just saying I think that’s what happened when everything got too streamlined. I also remarked that for me personally I stopped having enough time.

[@Aisaaax]

I also don't agree with your argument of integrating PVP and PVE content. Because there are a lot of people who actually actively hate one of those things, and saying that every MMO should integrate them is a very limited view that may be true for you, but is probably false for over 50% of people, because they like either or, but not both at the same time. Personally I loved FFXIV in part because there's no PVP at all save for the special battlegrounds modes that are optional. I like WoW for exactly the same reason - I can play on a PVE realm and NEVER have to fight another player EVER if I chose to. I dislike the faction-based conflict driven design where the developers constrict you and make half of the players your ENEMY. I also dislike free PVP designs where anyone could attack anyone else at any moment. For me, MMORPG was never about that. It was about interaction and cooperation, not killing each other. And for someone else, it's all about killing each other, and they dislike the idea of killing a boring scripted monster. They want to siege another guild's castle. And that's totally fine. But the game that combines the two of these worlds at a high enough level will probably appeal to a very thin slice of the audience. Because PVP players will hate being forced to do dungeons to progress, and PVE players will hate being ganked while they're in the middle of a boss fight. I am of a firm belief that these games should exist, but also that there should always be PVE-only and PVP-only experiences, and you can't have those by tightly integrating the two every time. So I disagree when you complain that some games don't have that integration, because in my opinion that's a GOOD THING. From a design standpoint, there's also a thing to say about PVP victories affecting the world in favor of a certain faction. For example it opens up a quest hub or gives a buff for players of that faction if they win control over a certain objective in PVP. The problem here is that things hate to stay in balance, and the more systems like that you have - the more reasons for imbalance you introduce. And the most volatile variable here is playerbase. Such mechanics tend to lead to mono-faction servers because people just want to have the perk, and if it's easier to have a perk on server A for your faction, then they will over time choose to all go there. Meanwhile the other faction has less and less victories on that server, and instead players drift to server B where that faction is winning. In the end, in 1 or 2 years you get half the servers that are Horde-only and other half that are Alliance-only. In fact, nowadays players just decide on Reddit before release which server will be best for their faction. Look at WoW. It has no such features, and yet you see the same problem, But if you actually have the PVP to influence any part of the game - the process is just faster. It works the same with open PVP, with the difference being that one guild or alliance of guilds dominates the rest of the server, and everyone either join them or suffer. Even mono-server doesn't solve that issue, because the imbalance basically frustrates the loosing side constantly, until a lot of those players either quit or switch sides. "For the Horde!" idealism doesn't work here. There are very few players who chose to fight against odds or play on an inferior side. And the eventual lack of enemies harms the experience of players of the winning faction/guild too, because it gets boring for them. That's a long post, I'm just saying all this to show you why those things aren't done, really. It's because game designers have those ideas, but then they go "oh wait..." and find real complelling reasins not to. There's a lot of appeal in your ideas, but they're very flawed in-depth because players exploit the loopholes. You know that phrase? Players will optimize the fun out of your game? Well, the more open and integrated you make your systems - the more avenues of such optimization you open up, until the game turns into a bad experience. On the other hand, closed systems that provide very straightforward interaction are not exploitable as easily. You know, it's like "It'd be cool if bosses were open-world with epic battles around them!"... Only this leads to one guild on your server waking up at 2 AM every day to kill that boss just as it respawns, and some other guild forcing their players to do the same to compete, and the rest just watch from the sidelines and never have a chance. "It'd be cool if there is only 5 castles per server and only 5 guilds can get them!" Well, this leads to only people who can go and defend it in the middle of a night or work hours to hold them. Because the 9-to-5 guys who are the majority just can't afford to be there all the time. And this doesn't get fixed by only allowing the siege at 7 PM, because the timezones are still real, and people with open time schedule hold all the advantage. As a result you see those guilds getting bigger and the rest disbanding and being assimilated.

[@SubToJinx]

Agreed, when you have a bunch of wishes it doesn't make the game less niche. Quite the contrary

[@바보Queen]

your idea sucks ass and is why FF14 is lacking for me besides hardly having any open world stuff for PVE with randoms like gw2.. u dont like faction wars.. well people do.. its the classic them vs u.. like in lord of the rings good vs evil.. thats what i imagine a dam mmo supposed to be.. where is the "war" in warcraft.. just admit ur a super carebear.. and afraid of people .. playing against people is the ultimate test not ai bots

[@zanniia7279]

I want to play an MMO where players can run proper shops and stuff. A working economy would be so goddamn cool

[@mr.nobody896]

I do want this one too...I want to play as traveling merchant rather than become the badass world saviour...But so far the game with this usually has declining player base.

[@saltiney8578]

yeah me too, my favorite mmo of all time was star wars galaxies before the patch that ruined it. it was really cool cuz a lot of the content was player made, Idk I think original everquest did pve the best and star wars galaxies had a really interesting system, then wow came along and warped the entire genre around its formula since it made so much money. and every mmo since then has been pretty bad

[@muratkahraman8743]

@@mr.nobody896 Silk Road used to have this with the silk caravan. One player was the merchant and he could hire mercanaries to protect his merchandise. Then there were thief players who could kill you and your guards to steal your loot. Eventually the game changed this system the reason for that was it was so easy being a thief compared to being a mercenary or a merchant. It was not rewarding your efforts. Like as a merchant you had to be focused 24/7 in case some suspicious guy gets close but as a thief you could just farm monsters near popular caravan routes and if you see a caravan you can just attack. The efforts put in by the two sides so vastly different that it killed it. Sorry for the rant it was just that this was my childhood game and I am still pissed how this system died.

[@Sheorath]

@@muratkahraman8743 go play albion lol

[@ТониАндреев]

@@muratkahraman8743 I remember not giving the game a chance for so long, but when I did it was soo good and unique. It would be interesting to make something similar in future games.

[@chemi7591]

Its a age old tale. The issue with alot of mmos is they can't keep the casual and hard-core players happy at the same time. Yes big bosses you have to get groups for are fun. But when content gets older and hard-core players have peaked and gone, it leaves the loney casual players that can't get to end game content. And if the game is a asian game western players just get the scraps imo.

[@ひひはひひ無し]

It goes back to what Peon is saying, games these days don't facilitate community building. Community holds players into the games. No community, then no matter how good the gimmicks are, people will get bored and move on.

[@CrystallineLore]

Pretty much. Worse, open world games do the open world better than 99% of MMORPGs, have a better stories to boot, and are one and done purchases. The Massively Multiplayer aspect is barely used any more in MMOs thanks to shit like dungeon/raid finder and the silent dungeon speed runs. Shit, a written NPC in a SP RPG or open world game is a thousand times more interesting than randamo silent tank 200000000000006456 on my 700th run through the same dungeon. FFXI had a lot of flaws, but at least you used to NEED to interact with other players to get help with stuff like level caps and tons of alt endgame content like BCNMs, nortorious, beast seals, etc. I was hoping for an evolution of this... not abandonment. Now people can play 99% of an MMO without meaningfully engaging with another human being until you do the 1% premade content at the end, if you even do that. MMOs just have no real reason to exist any more. Games built around MP (Overwatch, Fortnite, League/Dota, Fall Guys, Among us, Siege) actively use MP as a component without the ultimately pointless massively part, while open world games, especially those with COOP, and dungeon simulator RPGs like MMO-lites (Destiny) and ARPGs do an MMO's world and loot better. MMOs just don't matter anymore. The current ones have their diehard fans and that's kind of where things will end.

[@kennell2550]

@@CrystallineLore I think it would be somewhat interesting to take a procedurally generated world(s) similar to No Man's Sky but perhaps at a smaller level and then allow MMO style populations, world building, crafting, etc. This allows PVP and guilds content to fight over (bases/worlds/zones that are more valuable due to resource or enemy spawns) and PVE players content to explore (searching unexplored procedurally generated zones for good content and loot). Devs can add in hand crafted areas and dungeons whenever they like without having to worry about the other stuff. Or simply make low level areas hand crafted to start with outlying areas being high level and more dangerous. I don't know. Just an idea. Just feels like it is fairly easy to make good pvp content but hard to do good pve content. If you make them connected in a way like above it makes it more interesting I feel.

[@johndalquen7668]

@@CrystallineLore I used to play WoW and in the end I felt like a drone doing daily things, the guilds I tried didn't talk or help anyone. The raids and stuff people have a wish list and left when they didn't get the drop they wanted. It all started to feel like I couldn't be competitive in anything as I lacked the time to play constantly and there was no community to keep me playing WoW. Its a pity because MMO's could be a good thing. But as you said it feels like silent robots are playing the game.

[@Centrioless]

Kinda reminds me when ppl were screaming abt how wow classic would kill retail wow. Turns out even the hardcore players are not enough to keep wow classic population healthy

[@CastOfCons]

I don’t think you understand how much your videos do for people personally, you genuinely just feel like a really good friend talking to us. Appreciate all you do.

[@TheHuffur]

To me he simply comes across as a genuinely genuine guy talking sensible stuff about games which is very appreciated. There are way too many "super hyped lets speak at mach10 and make funny faces and weird voices/inflections" types on youtube, cant stand them.

[@MrJackooze]

Amen to that.

[@crushedclover]

You know what I was shocked didn't catch on? Some of the things freaking Rift did. The zone events, the actual random rifts that popped up, and everyone playing in that zone would rush to that point and you didn't have to queue up and it was so seamless. Everyone worked together. I absolutely loved that.

[@Whytewulfe]

I really enjoyed Rift.. With a bit more support I think that really could have been a top game.

[@Luftgitarrenprofi]

And skill chains from FFXI. That system wasn't perfect, but interactive timed ability combos represented exactly what MMORPGs are about while implemented directly into combat. Skill based cooperation with shared reward.

[@Purrversion]

Early Rift was genius, but people were too busy with WoW and EQ2 to really bother with it.

[@andrewli8900]

"compared to pretty much every other genre" *RTS crying in the corner*

[@balvo]

As an ex Scraft player, I feel this

[@fudwgemar]

its sad but that genre has been successfully killed, there is no more hope at all , MMO feel like its on life support.

[@shadowyking123]

@@fudwgemar At least there's a constant stream of Kickstarter MMOs and the big current MMOs are still getting new releases. Meanwhile, Blizzard straight up said they won't work on SC2 anymore.

[@relaxedfish2344]

@@fudwgemar RTS is worse than dead. It's been killed and raised into an undead abomination by mobile gaming studios

[@M13X]

@@fudwgemar I wouldn't say is completely dead. People still play Age of Empires, not that huge numbers to compare it with the popular stuff, but also not that low to call it dead.

[@msmodellergaming2]

"the most unloved genre" Hi. Real Time Stratergy games (with base building) would like a word with you (the only one on the horizon is, what Age of Empires?).

[@BlGGESTBROTHER]

Hi. MMOFPS players would like a word with you. There's only planetside 2 available for us to play and it's an abomination of a game compared to its predecessor.

[@grifinorange]

Still playing dow ultimate apocalypse and aoe2.

[@pneumonoultramicroscopicsi4065]

Anno?

[@avatarofpaine]

@@BlGGESTBROTHER Remember when Firefall showed promise?

[@msmodellergaming2]

@@pneumonoultramicroscopicsi4065 Arguably a city builder/economy management more than RTS - Command and Conquer, Total Annihilation, Age of Empires, Empire Earth, Dungeon Keeper, these are the sort of things I mean.

[@strasznieciekawe]

All we need is someone who can create VR MMORPG which we can play while sleeping in some special capsules and we are set! I swear if someone comes up with something like this i'm giving up on real world for ever

[@camdakid2902]

Underrated comment 💯

[@Cendoria]

@@camdakid2902 Not for long probably

[@mykulpierce]

Sword Art Online inc lol

[@jashinsewpersad323]

The matrix ? 😭

[@KC-py5vq]

@@jashinsewpersad323 no, oasis!

[@csnaber]

Hey man, I am a regular viewer of your channel... and I am not even an MMORPG player for real. :) (I usually create a character, travel around for an hour or two and then uninstall the game) So, you creating content about other types of games, it's perfectly ok and I am looking forward to them. This will not lessen your status as an MMO commentor, but it will give us more games to view your ideas. Keep up the great work, and love for your editor!

[@robertpadua6096]

Battle royale player...

[@cheesypoohalo]

Literally this. I have created so many Guild Wars 2 characters because the character creation is so much more fun than the actual game. One day a company will make an MMO where the grind is actually fun and engaging... one day.

[@hoofhearted4]

i want to see him play more PoE. he got me interested recently and i just liked watching him play.

[@Hatsunemiku58077]

Why uninstall it o.o

[@cheesypoohalo]

@@Hatsunemiku58077 No point in having a game you think you'll never play again on your hard drive, it's just taking up space. If he has good internet it won't be hard to reinstall it if he changes his mind.

[@TartarosVods]

Hearing that first sentence about developers neglecting the genre... *cries in RTS*...

[@sylverashigaru4808]

I hate that I'm such a big RTS and MMORPG fan, they get so little love it hurts :(

[@hardcoreGrat]

Have you checked out Manor Lords? Looks promising.

[@Invangar]

"Bless Online: shut down...cause it was shit" I lmfao how true

[@plagues-haze-3987]

Bless unleashed gona shut down too they couldn't keep up with BDO

[@authorvalentine]

"The most unloved genre" *cries in RTS*

[@DandySlayer13]

RTS's have their moments to shine but it definitely ain't the 90's anymore...

[@lordodin5755]

@@DandySlayer13 mmo's had their time to shine it's not the mid 2000's anymore N-N-N-NEXT GENRE

[@legionthezed5887]

I love rts

[@legionthezed5887]

Bdo is probably the most high potential mmo I’ve ever seen or played they could do some really nice stuff

[@xqNN]

cries in Arena Shooter

[@_Just_John]

The last time I felt the MMO part of this genre was in ArcheAge. We had a really nice spot for the main guild house surrounded by guild member houses and farms. The part of the map was called Nemesis Hill server-wide. I remember chill fishing moments with many fishing boats surrounding fed fish school. We did massive trade runs cooperating with few other guilds. The feeling I had on board of a merchant ship, surrounded by friends with the vision of player pirate harpoon clippers and galleons on the horizon is unmatched to this day. And the hundreds of people we had to coordinate while taking the spot for out future castle was incredibly thrilling.

[@JChaim]

Yeah, Archeage really made you care about PvP with trade routes and piracy and PvE with world bosses esp.Having land to build on really helped build communities. My guild had a pretty big stake on the server I played on and the early days of the game coming to NA feels like the last time I've been so invested in an MMO world and player dynamics and interactions since early WoW and EQ before it. Too bad it and everything else has become so profit-focused. Hope we get another well done, no P2W or endless microtransactions, MMORPG that makes community so important, but Im not holding my breath.

[@live305]

“The most unloved near forgotten genre” [Laughs in real time strategy]

[@vesperflight6116]

We require more minerals.

[@sirottovonbismarck6776]

*cries in WC3:Reforged*

[@madmanmadlad2876]

At least AOE 2 still alive and thriving better than ever

[@YuriSteiner04]

building unit lost silos needed

[@Gwynbleidd93]

[Encourages in space sim]

[@davinci451]

I, for one, found the honesty incredibly refreshing. What other genre's best game is nearly 20 years old? That's not the result of a game's dominance, it's the result of a genre's stagnation. Imagine if Halo 2, or Doom 3 was the best shooter on the market.

[@vexienroe]

Rts... obviously... we have had sc2 thats it

[@87penminecraft]

Counter Strike is still a dominating FPS after 20 years. The problem with the games you listed is they don't receive continuing updates. There is no World of Warcraft 2, it receives expansions and patches all the time. So you can't really point at a random Halo game and say look that one is not still a super popular FPS. Counter Strike has had other titles but the formula is still exactly the same. And it is still one of the most popular competitive FPS games there is. League of Legends is 12 years old now, and is still the top moba.

[@Cneq]

halo 2 is still pretty good mate, only difference nowadays is higher fidelity and a switch to scummy online service models, gameplay wise all shooters have stayed the same.

[@afrog2666]

@Kimi Timoskainen And Battlefield and Arma et cetera et cetera..

[@afrog2666]

@@87penminecraft Might as well have been Ironsight, it`s just that people are habitual and if one person`s friend plays CS, that person might never even try something like Ironsight. (which I personally preferred over CS) It`s not the industry`s fault, it`s the players preference, as with most things, the market makes the desicions and the companies follow the demand. CS is still hot because that`s what players want, the rest are hyped for the latest COD or whatever and the size and budget of *those* games is an indicator as to how popular those games are as well. Competitive FPS games don`t change because players will complain or straight up not play, that`s why CS is what it is, if it works don`t fix it, why change a winning team

[@Daleskate]

Imagine if there was a giant road with a ridiculously hard boss in the way that the server needed to kill in order to open up the new lands, or there was a fabled continent that everyone needed to pool together resources to build a flying system to reach, or a deeeeeeeep mine that the miners in the server had to open up, which would open up new caves and resources, that were then needed to take on another murderous enemy in the sky. Brb making a sick MMO.

[@Regonix]

I would love a create an ideal MMO and it wouldn't be hard to make one (with a good team and massive funding). Let me explain (features first, then the concept): 1) Crafting and gathering: just like in Runescape 2) Questing: mixture between Runescape and Guild Wars 2 3) Race system: just like WoW 4) Class system: mixture between Rift, Lineage 2 and Elder Scrolls Online 5) World: mixture between Dark Souls 1/2/3 and Runescape 6) Combat system: mixture between Guild Wars 2, Aion and Black Desert Online 7) Story/Lore: mixture between WoW, Skyrim and Secret World 8) Setting: mixture between Requiem and Secret World, but medieval 9) Leveling: mixture between Guild Wars 2, Aion and Rift 10) Additional Gameplay (excluding combat and endgame): mixture between Trove and Archeage 11) Business model: buy to play with cash shop 12) Cash shop: just like in Path Of Exile 13) Story building: done by both devs and players (via creating towns/dungeons, choosing fate of the lore events) 14) Endgame PVE: there is no endgame, but technically world bosses 15) Endgame PVP: world bosses and world PVP, castle sieges (like in Lineage 2), town defense 16) Endgame other activities: gathering, crafting, building, trading, discovery of lore and completion of special quests Now, with that in mind, let me pain you exact concept of MMORPG I have in mind: Imagine something like Dark Souls, huge maps with all sorts of secrets, all sorts of enemies, bosses and hidden bosses, special gear, unique gear and so on. Now, expand those maps and made them massively multiplayer. Each massive map would have points players will need to reach and ring a bell. After ringing the bell previously hostile part of the map will turn friendly and then players will be able to safely progress further. Only wild areas would have PVP-on mode, so PVP players would fight to keep zones as hostile, while PVE players would fight to turn zones friendly. However, each zone of the map is progressively harder to complete: first zone could be completed by a solo player, next zone would require about 5 players, third zone would require 10 players, forth zone would require 20 players and so on until you reach something like 100 players mark. After completing whole map and turning all zones into friendly zones, a new map will open with the same progression system, but much higher skill-cap for players. After second map gets fully completed - third map opens. And so on with (potentially) unlimited amount of maps for players to complete. HOWEVER, here is a kicker - after turning a zone safe all hidden bosses will go away and player will not be able to return them or get their unique loot. So, some PVE guilds will try to maintain hostile zone as hostile for as long as they can until they kill all hidden bosses at least once. So, massive amount of people will band together and work against each other for all sorts of goals: 1) Some will try to reach "the final map" and thus they would try to turn all zones safe as fast as possible; 2) Some people will try to find all hidden boss and thus would try to maintain hostile zone as long as possible; 3) Some people will simply enjoy PVP in relatively easy zones and wouldn't want to do PVP in dangerous zones; 4) Some people would try to progress through zones without turning them safe; 5) Some people would try to establish their own miniature safe-zones, like player made cities deep down into hostile parts of the map for people who want to move through maps without turning zones safe; 6) Some people would try to prevent people from going through maps and thus they would try to destroy player made cities. And lets not forget one of most important, yet, simple aspect of the game which would turn this game into something none of other MMORPGs are. All lore of the game should follow the story-telling model of Dark Souls, meaning big pats of the lore are left for interpretation while other parts of the lore should be left for players to make. And I don't mean to discover or make for themselves, I mean actually allowing players to set segments of the story however they want. If DudeMcDudeface is the first one who have killed Soulscreamer, then DudeMcDudeface will be allowed to decide what happens to Soulscreamer in the lore: death, revenge or redemption.

[@MixMeister5000]

You should check out Ashes of Creation , you are pretty much describing it.

[@SC-tb8wx]

This is such a nice idea holy

[@SC-tb8wx]

@@Regonix This is the holy grail of mmo ideas

[@mattBLACKpunk]

Glhf

[@sergiogrys4925]

Planetside 2 is a unique MMOFPS, that has so much potential, while being already great.

[@butteryfriedwizard2219]

The absolute most important thing in an MMO to me, is character building. Plenty of options within each class instead of a cookie cutter turnout in the end. Cosmetics also give me a feel of ownership.

[@abjectlyterrible]

People will always find 'the best builds' and then others will copy them or even be peer pressured to do so. They think just copying what the top players do will make them succeed as well.

[@johanchristensen6551]

Cosmetics, lol

[@butteryfriedwizard2219]

@@johanchristensen6551 damn straight. Get good.

[@yorickdigsgraves8858]

I just want to be a damn necromancer, like an actual minion based class that has power over diverse undead...not sad imitations like dks from wow

[@DeathIsLethal]

@@abjectlyterrible To be fair, it would. If you want to be the best you can be in an mmo, you need to gear your character in a way that allows you to play them the best. The only room for preference is in things that don't matter. Copying the meta won't make you a good player, but no good player doesn't copy the meta.

[@Frerrva]

Didn't feel ranty, just your honest feelings on the industry you've made your career on. I enjoyed it.

[@Thoroughmas]

I nodded solemnly through this entire video. Well said.

[@ZunaZurugi]

That he didnt Mention EvE Online when talking about SUCH features and Top 10 MMOs i was so.... disappointed.

[@dj.scio.france]

When you taste EvE Online, you can't play another mmorpg ^^

[@DreamskyDance]

Yuuup.. he probably is focused on fantasy MMO's... but EVE online is the only game ( not MMO.. a game ) that has those things he mentiones.. massively multiplayer, battles what have real stakes for things players care about, player driven story and events... basically. But it's niche game i guess...

[@ZunaZurugi]

@@DreamskyDance The thing is with its concurrent playerbase its easily in the top 10... so not talking about it is kinda weird.

[@DreamskyDance]

@@ZunaZurugi I agree... when he mentioned top 10 mmo's he mentioned some games that are less popular than eve... Idk.. maybe he ignores eve for some other reason, this is the only video i watched from this creator.. did he cover eve online at any point ?

[@ZunaZurugi]

@@DreamskyDance He does videos all the time about MMOs but never Eve i think xD like its not existing. Maybe for him an MMO is only when you walk by WASD or... mouse click movement and not like an Strategy commander game which is still kinda similar to mouse movement mmos.

[@tasty8186]

One of the most consistently rewarding MMO experiences lately is - surprisingly - private server WoW. weird.

[@wile123456]

It's simple. Because it's private and illegal for them to monitize it, they aren't being greedy or incentivized to rip off their players and instead player happiness is more important. What ruins most games and genres is the abseloute toxicity that late stage capitalism brings to the shit video game industry that doesn't have enough protections for consumers

[@Headcrabman9999]

@@wile123456 >Because it's private and illegal for them to monitize it That doesn't stop them from doing so.

[@greenchilistudioz4537]

@@wile123456 Have you play any private servers?

[@wile123456]

@@Headcrabman9999 I mean they litterally can't bar entry to the server with a pay wall. They can take donations, but WoW is blizzards property and unless they give exclusive permission to the private server, the server can't profit off a game they didn't make. It's the same with mods for Skyrim for example. But donations are different because they are vulentary by nature

[@silverfox9107]

@@wile123456 there’s a lot of private servers that are monetised. Lol wtf are you on about? Google the word monetised, “to earn revenue from”. Whatever you’re smoking I want some

[@pausamia6849]

“Who plays MMO for the story?” Me who plays FF14 and super excited for Endwalker: 👁👄👁

[@1LuvMLPFiM]

Me having invested 1,100+ hours into FFXIV ever since July last year. 🤷 Back when update 5.3 went live

[@marslara]

i would say a significant portion of ffxiv players are into the storyline

[@Gurgio]

I don't play typical MMOs for the story, but for me, FFXIV isn't a typical MMO - It's just Final Fantasy XIV (but online).

[@thatwrengirl]

Same here! And as far as community and PVE, the Ishgard Restoration fulfilled that area for me. Hoping they do more things for crafters and gatherers like that.

[@DSeraph88]

I’m a lore guy so any game I play spend the time to learn the story and read the lore. I know there are players that don’t read NPC dialogue and skip anything skippable but I could never play like that. An MMO with no effort spent on story isn’t a good MMO to me.

[@blandmarrow]

I'd still be watching you if you quit making MMO content all together. What I subscribed for was your reviews in general because they are just that good, keep up the good work!

[@Argonisgema]

LazyPeon is really underestimating the power of good storytelling.

[@Argonisgema]

@@Hideo_Kojima_yt bro you are hideo Kojima. You make stories and those stories are in video games

[@SamuelBenedicic_of_NSK]

Ashes of Creation fails. TheLazyPeon: *starts covering Gachas exclusivly*

[@RiseInAfterlife]

It failed already? I mean it looked 100% like a dev team being too ambitious with promising the blue from the sky and most likely ending up as half or even quarter-assing everything.

[@BlGGESTBROTHER]

@@RiseInAfterlife It's not out yet. He was speaking hypothetically but let's be honest, it probably will fail.

[@SamuelBenedicic_of_NSK]

@@BlGGESTBROTHER indeed i was speaking of the hypothesis, tho as two comenters state, it is already failing in a way as it is providing stuff when its barely in sketches, and two, it is ambitious, too much ambitious im suprised by response really, was only an edgy comment :'D

[@flammableelmo4966]

@@SamuelBenedicic_of_NSK actually not to ambitious, and hasnt failed yet, only main reason you are seeing those comments are from hype children that got mad when they released that BR mode for testing reasons.. which of course in it's current state looking nothing alike.. I would agree the commentors if ashes wasnt showing as actual gameplay and what they were doing un like EQ Next which turned out to be 100% VaporWare

[@BlGGESTBROTHER]

​@@flammableelmo4966 You can say my comment is because "I'm a hype child that god mad when they released that BR mode for testing reasons..." but the truth is that I've been around long enough to know that most of these kick started projects (especially mmos) fail to deliver on what they promise. If AoC turns out to be the exception to the rule I will be thrilled but I certainly wouldn't hold my breath for that to happen.

[@red_orange2971]

You know what makes a good MMO, friends, without them it's just be another game you forget about.

[@paddington1670]

What makes a good MMO? Jobs to do, people to talk socialize with and adventure with. Give the players jobs to do again. Im tired of WoW classes that can do everything. Oh, I can tank, Dps and heal myself. lol what a joke. Classic EQ is better than classic WoW because in EQ players have to group with other players to do anything. To take a shit, they practically have to have a group. Tank, DPS, Heal, the three that every MMO needs. However EQ added crowd control and slowing your enemy's attack speed, which are both very important strategic boons and every class can only do ONE thing, or maybe a few things like druids but they suck at everything they do. In EQ a warrior could only take hits, they basically had zero ways of healing or doing damage. Rogue could only do damage, and couldnt even do it while alone because there is no way to get behind an enemy, cant heal, cant take hits. Cleric could only heal, no damage, and no tanking, despite seeing a cleric tanking once because he had full plate and everyone else was squishy. Still though, people had to work together to do literally everything, and that itself was super addicting. Always new people passing through your leveling areas, or rotating out to new areas, always people to talk to, you started to get to know people on the server and you earned a reputation for yourself. In WoW, im basically a number, and it would be exceedingly difficult and onerous to get the same notoriety that comes with just playing the game in EQ. People would do things for each other out of the goodness of their heart. running around to all the groups in a zone and buffing them all, which was more time intensive than just insta cast spells that are always memorized in modern WoW type games. Rangers helping people to find things with the ranger tracking skill, necromancers helping to get peoples corpses back after bad raid wipes, a lot of people felt needed. Like, Everquest and WoW are so far apart as far as what they offer you, Im not surprised WoW is more popular, im just disappointed that it takes a flashy, rabid gameplay, single player experience to achieve popularity. I started playing WoW recently, got to max level with 2 classes and still havent talked to a single other real person. Fun game, terrible MMO. WoW and other more modern MMOs just feel like everyone is playing a single player game in tandem, you dont need to play with anyone to achieve things, or only have to infrequently on raid days, or just literally just feels like youre playing a single player game. Where are the people running past me in the opposite direction when im running to the next city or continent taking a boat? WoW feels empty, other games feel empty, even despite classic EQ having fewer people playing than people working out at fitness world, they can make the game feel lived in with people roaming and travelling, camping mobs, selling items, and grouping together. THAT is what we need in a MMO, not more _Diablo 3 the MMO._ You actually just play your stat sheet avatar in EQ, so it's way more boring, but playing with actual human beings makes up for not rolling your face across hotbars of buttons. You dont need to smash buttons like a rabidly ADHD child, use your brain and socialize, play your class as well as you can and youll get groups and progress, raiding later to get good gear and progress. That's addicting, that's fun to some people. WoW just moved the goal posts to appeal to the general public with one foot in RPG and one foot in MMO. EverQuest is ALL MMO, and that's why it failed

[@karabean]

I couldn't agree more - this is one universal thing that makes an MMO good. Not counting that, we all want different things. My bf and I play PvE (or world/story whatever you want to label it) and have no interest in PvP or any kind of team vs team situation. I know people who only want PvP. But you know what? There's no wrong answer, that's why there will never be a game to satisfy everyone.

[@charlesmcdowell9436]

@@karabean Here's a list of current and last gen coop rgps I recommend you play with your friend that you may find more fun story wise than most mmo's : Divinity original sin 2 , Baldurs gate 3 , waste land 3 , diablo 3, solastra, pathfinder king maker and the new path finder. Honorable mention , border lands 2 . This list gets alot bigger if you want to play older games.

[@karabean]

@@charlesmcdowell9436 Thanks, and we have played a couple of those. We still like to play WITH other people, but we'd rather beat up bosses than other players.

[@datface6582]

Lineage 2 offered all this things back in the early days of the MMO genre, literally from pvp to pve it was all about grouping up with your clan/alliance to go fight for a castle or even a boss (valakas/baium/antharas) damn i miss those days as hell!

[@vasiljambazov]

you can be simpleton 60 lvl overlord with none combat power, but with your displess and cursses you can literally decide a Raid fight or a castle siege... Damn... L2 was almost the perfect MMO!

[@Mike-ok5nb]

Ah, fellow Lineage 2 players, good to see still around!

[@datface6582]

@@vasiljambazov i also remember when we had to start a server to play with my friends, we all had to split the roles for different alts aswell - such as buffer/spoiler/bd/songer/chanter , fuck the nostalgia is hitting on the roof atm 😂

[@eugenrullz]

@@datface6582 running from Gludio to Dion, from Dion to Giran, and somewhere in the middle you got pk`d :))

[@alcidespinheiro4398]

True. But we had Tera online that was supposed to be line age 2 with a modern combat system, i really enjoyed the days of alliance wars in tera and until today is the best combat system that ive ever experienced, but sadly, as said in the video, the stupid monetization killed the game.

[@chrisstopper4541]

He seems to be describing Eve... Then again, about 15 years ago, there was an MMORPG that attempted to give him everything he's asking for, but due to balance issues and failing to meet release schedules, it completely failed. RIP Warhammer Online.

[@jaked9596]

I thought of the same thing! It felt like he was describing EVE.

[@100Jim]

Same. He want a fantasy version of eve

[@100Jim]

We need some rich dude to make an MMO who doesn't care about profit too much.

[@iffus_akiyoshi]

So basically you want a Log Horizon: The Game, and I completely agree! The appeal of a game where you can interact with many other players is in the ability of each player to influence and shape the world just like the real world but with fantastical elements. Imagine having a place in the worlds hosting the stories you've read and watched about powerful and creative people and groups creating the circumstances in those stories. Wouldn't that be super cool?

[@RedWonderer]

This. I want this.

[@georgewillow112]

Yea I feel like we'll be able to experience something like Log Horizon or Sword Art Online once we get true, authentic deep-dive virtual reality. Deep-dive VR MMOs will be what we all crave so desperately right now. I hope I'm still alive for when this dream becomes a reality, since the progress in the VR department has been pretty lackluster and what's really holding us back is our lack of knowledge on how the brain actually works and how we could hook it up to an external device (so that we could create real deep-dive technology).

[@scarocci7333]

If you have 2000 developpers, a budget of 2 billiards and 10 years of developpmenet as well as giving a super powered computer to everyone we might reach 10% of that

[@Sephiroso.]

The thing is, the type of games he wants were already made. It's just they were Korean. There's a game that was made by Nexon(then sold to a company called KRU) called Dark Ages. And no, not Dark Ages of Camelot. It's simply called Dark Ages. It was all about player interaction. It had player run economy, player run religion, player run politics. When you made a character, you were just a peasant at the start. To become a class, you had to find another player of that class to be your guide/mentor to become that class. It had a really unique take on classes in that you had 2 options once you reached max level. You could either master the class and be whats known as a Pure or you could choose to start over at level 1 as a different class be known as a Sub. You got to keep all of your abilities and spells of your first class, and you could keep the equipment that you had on(but if you took it off, you couldn't re-equip it due to lack of levels/stats). Sub's had a lot of advantages but it was actually a hard choice because Pures gained Pure only skills/spells which were very very tempting. Like A pure warrior gained access to a physical reflection buff and also a skill that would paralyze all the enemies on the screen for 15 seconds. It was a very great game and the players themselves shaped the content in a lot of ways. I miss it some days and much to LazyPeon's words about how when he played WotLK and thought if games are this good now, just imagine how good they'll be years from now. I had the same thoughts that he did in regards to Dark Ages. Sadly...

[@Sevarrius]

Sounds like a sandbox mmo to me, my favourite kind of mmo and exactly the kind of mmo you just don't seem to get any more. Unfortunately almost all of those that existed are now defunct. The bland cookie cutter, scripted mmo's that almost without exception populate the landscape today are the worst possible direction mmo's could have gone in and are certainly the reason I haven't enjoyed a single mmo in almost 10 years.

[@TheRealMTR]

When you describe what you want, you're describing Everquest. They got it right 20 years ago

[@Greybush041]

So true, the original Sleeper raid was ridiculous

[@liquidflame9752]

I would say Star Wars Galaxy would be more spot on to what he was describing . They gave you the tools to have fun and set you on your way...

[@leopardstar4719]

When it comes to game you are describing everquest and mabinogi comes to mind

[@brianrandolph6681]

Those games were all good for their time, all outdated now. I think someone could make it big by just repeating those concepts with action content and no micro transactions. Not revolutionary, but sometimes you don't need to reinvent the wheel, just use new materials.

[@scarlet8078]

@@brianrandolph6681 I left a similar comment. Look at the tremendous success of WoW Classic & Runescape. The formula for a good MMORPG is very simple. Humans are merely sophisticated monkeys. We will press a lever faster for a variable reward, i.e., what makes games fun & addictive is randomness. For a compulsively playable MMO, you just need gear/ talent/ skill progression, RNG, learnable & fun combat mechanics, multiplayer activities & economy that promote player communities & cooperation, & both random & reliable aspects of reward/ loot system (aka the "good grind").

[@MaximumCarter]

I'd venture to guess that most everyone here cares more about you then the actual games. You're an entertaining chap, funny and a joy to watch play games. It was never about the games, it's about you.

[@hejalll]

It sounds like classic 40 man raids achieves quite a lot of what he's explaining. And despite all of the love he gave classic prior to its release, he didn't make it past lv 30.

[@belstar1128]

I would like some reviews of non mmos but if i see fornite or Minecraft or too many mobas and card games i am gone

[@Ziegeri]

Branching out is nothing new in KZbin and Peon should do just fine, of course some old viewers might not like it, but it will most likely attract new audience. I would say that Peon should make whatever content he enjoys making, if you force yourself into making something, the quality suffers.

[@iffus_akiyoshi]

@@hejalll it's not just raids. It's about the context of the entire world in the game, from politics, to economics, to the story, and the structure of the world's rulership, etc. MMORPG is different to RPG because many people can interact and group up to accomplish stuff, but right now, the things that even the hugest bands of people can accomplish is only a systematically-limited amount of things. Imagine the players' interactions being the cause of the story in the game, rather than some pre-scripted story. That potential is unique to MMOs.

[@hejalll]

@@iffus_akiyoshi No I get that I just said that at least for the raiding aspect, classic wow does deliver the "MMO" feel. I am also a little salty that after giving so much praise to classic wow over the years, when we finally got it, he quit before lv. 30.

[@pulkapojken]

Tbh, eve online has the feeling of being part of something massive, and you can change the world.

[@___hxcKid]

You're right! to this day eve is the only game I'd count as conceptually MMORPG through and through. now only if it didnt have insanely antiquated gameplay and was actually fun to play..

[@Zachdiditx]

Came here to say the same. LazyPeon goes on the state the things he wants out of an MMO, but scrolls right by it in the list without even a mention. TBH though having experienced Eve and many many MMOs. Half the things we say we want in these MMO aren't even fun when they're implemented.

[@oliver_twistor]

EVE would be fun if not for the gate gankers that I tend to attract all the time. People tell me that they are rare and if you don't flying around with expensive ships or expensive cargo, they mostly leave you alone. Not me. I can fly in the free shuttle only outfitted with a basic mining beam and still get ganked. Ganking was the worst aspect of my time in World of Warcraft as well (although there you can opt-out of PvP). I suppose I'm not much of a MMO player since I don't like PvP and due to my disability I have slow reflexes, and I easily panic and freeze when suddenly attacked as in EVE at gates.

[@kaorumugen991]

@@oliver_twistor Honestly, if you get attacked on a gate in high-sec, not much you can do anyway - people will only try to pop you if they're 99%+ sure they can do it before Concord pops them. Not sure why you were ganked in a free rookie ship without any loot, that really doesn't make sense. Unless you're talking about low/null/WHs, then yeah, people will engage pretty much no matter what you're flying if they think they can win. I usually don't like PvP either, but EVE is pretty much the only game in which I ever did. There's always something of actual value (your ship and implants) at stake, so every time you engage in PvP there's an adrenaline rush like nothing I've ever experienced in any other game. It also takes actual skill and knowledge to pick and start engagements you can win, avoid those you can't, and it's not "pay to win" - small, cheap ships with low SP pilots can often defeat large, expensive ones piloted by people with a ton of SP. Again, it's far more about knowledge and skill than just dumping resources into maximizing some arbitrary number. If the only thing you don't enjoy is the gankers/PvP, you can definitely avoid this. Maybe not 100% of the time because you can always find yourself in a situation that was impossible to anticipate, but damn near 99% of the time if you have the experience/knowledge of what _can_ happen and how to avoid it. Especially in high-sec where there are no warp bubbles etc.

[@oliver_twistor]

@@kaorumugen991 Thanks so much for your comment! Yeah, this was in hi-sec (I think the last gank was 0.6), and maybe I specifically took my free shuttle to avoid tempting gankers with my mining ship. I think I had a basic miner and a basic railgun or laser outfitted and in the cargo I had some ammo for my gun and perhaps something else, but definitely not what I would call high value. I like EVE Online, but the lack of friends to play with, and my bad PvP experiences made me eventually quit -- twice :) One time maybe 10 years ago and one time just 2--3 years ago. I wouldn't mind getting killed by players so much if it weren't for the obvious ganking. I actually got a response to a message I sent to the person who did me in the last time I was ganked. I asked them why they killed me when they couldn't possibly have found any real value in my cargo. They answered that they did it because they could and that I should be more careful next time. Anyway, due to my disability, I mostly play turn-based games, at least games with turn-based combat. That way I don't need to get so stressed and frustrated.

[@ashraven69]

i want to experience "that feeling" again in my life before i die ... that feeling of going inside an epic fantasy world for the first time full of countless possibilities to explore ... that feeling when i first played Rappelz , Lineage 2 , Aion ...

[@Comech64]

Aion before 3.0 was the most incredible PVP experience ever

[@Kuba-qe9rd]

I remember those hours spent with my friends playing games like Tibia, Metin 2, Lineage 2, Silkroad, Aion. Beautiful times, I wish I could experience these emotions one more time.

[@drtomo5548]

It will never be, because of the pre-leaks, beta tests and content creators like Peon, will cover 99% of the concept before even release. The Wikia page will be already done before the servers launch and you will be there reading that, learing for some "beater" launch-rush potential. MMORP was never about the 1st "umpf", it is always about the consistency, as peon says "the infinitely repeatable content"

[@nanarb6945]

I remember back in the day, the biggest reason for me to spend hours on MMOs is to have fun doing just anything with the community i had created with my in game friends. Nowadays the MMOs games players mostly focus on grinding endgame stats and gear and then PVP. It's like everyone playing a single player game, with a Score board, and only there to compete with others.

[@nghtspawn651]

What game do you play?

[@nanarb6945]

@@nghtspawn651 used to play vindictus and gw2. And few months ago just jumps into BDO and my eyes were pleased, but easily bored.

[@naldebol]

What you feel exactly This is why I loved city of heroes The community The whole inclusiveness

[@MercenaryJames]

@@naldebol not to mention sheer utter freedom. That's what MMO's really lack nowdays. Everything is streamlined, City of Heroes and many other MMO's of that time were so open-ended and you were free to create such interesting characters and truly feel like your part of the world/community. That doesn't exist now.

[@naldebol]

@@MercenaryJames you nailed it right on. Pushing the boundaries of freedom , and the so many variations to create characters and play styles.

[@Wizkid_Marcin]

I think we need a players vs developers mmorpg where developers create a problem in the world and everyone in the game bands together to fight it. Kind of like the developers being dungeon masters to the rest of the community

[@amanapart1811]

Now that would be something special

[@Electru522]

Isn't that what an expansion basically is?

[@amanapart1811]

@@Electru522 not sure if your reply was sarcasm. I'd it wasn't, he means real time events, kinda pvp pve i that real ppl are creating scenarios that other real people have to combat

[@MackSparrow]

Now there was this little game called firefall...

[@yummychips_]

I think older games, or specifically games that launched when MMOs were still not as prominent. Things like that would happen, sorta. Like GMs would start things. I know runescape use to do things like that. WOW to some extent. Not anything super serious tho.

[@EpochIsEpic]

Hidden bosses are a necessity for truly real feeling mmorpg worlds

[@Lone_Wolf_91]

Right, I hate that these days there are betas, alphas, early access etc shits and everyone knows everything, close dungeons.. so much they trying to kill the immersion of massive world and help to be lazy bitch to have access to all content with a click of a button. In Guild Wars 2 I loved to explore world and meet some bosses and try for hours to take them down by myself while changing skills, tactics or ask someone around who I saw to help me xD My way of play :)

[@blakecatron847]

When you're describing some of these things it reminds me of EverQuest back in Velious. To kill The Sleeper at the time no one guild could do it, and it wasn't really known that the mob wasn't supposed to be killed as it dropped no loot but multiple guilds on a server (Rallos Zek I believe which was pvp) created a tentative alliance to just that, and that they did kill The Sleeper and it dropped nothing which was a let down but the sheer determination and alliances made was amazing to see. Also to awaken the Sleeper you had to kill The Sleepers Warders which at the time dropped the best weapons in the game and if you killed all four it would awaken The Sleeper and the Warders would never spawn again on that server so it was a big deal if all four were killed.

[@Krizzsek]

LOL I was just thinking the same thing! The difficulty of the content where you couldn't solo your way to endgame made being part of the community a requirement, and if you didn't want to end up semi-afk asking for a party in OOC or one of the global channels you joined a guild & got involved. Sadly nowadays it's all multi-box groups outside of small cliques of players that have been playing together for a decade & want to do just that.

[@Royfokker73]

I did my first year of EQ as Rallos from 99 to 2000. I think that's why I stay away from pvp these days. That pvp frayed your nerves, losing gear that was already hard to come by was brutal. It took me months when I went to a blue server not to jump every time I heard the sound of a nuke being cast.

[@paddington1670]

In all fairness though, WoW doesnt even offer the same feeling EverQuest does. The world of Norrath feels more real, with people always sitting around LFG or camping mobs or trying to sell in the commonlands or Luclin later. WoW is basically just a really really long grindy Diablo 3 that has multiplayer elements. I have a max level mage in 1 week in WoW, and another priest almost max level and i havent even talked to a single other person. It's so friggin boring. Im looking forward to raiding, but still, even lvl 10 in EverQuest feels more grounded in a real world and challenging where other people also exist because you need to ask for help or groups, or to even travel places, than all the experiences ive had in WoW combined. WoW is just mostly single player, with a little bit of team work here and there that's really just rolling your face on a keyboard simultaneously than true teamwork and thought; PVP battlegrounds would be the most teamwork oriented WoW has to offer. Project 1999 EQ does the classic MMORPG experience good enough in this day, shame it takes a 22 year old game to give us that ripe MMO experience.

[@zhaoyunzhaozilong]

This reminds me of Guild wars 2 during the scarlet event. There were so many players doing that event fighting mobs together at lion's arch, and I witness a bunch of players going down and a warrior drops his warbanner (battle standard ) and brought them back up. Not to forget the twisted marionette event as well . The chills man miss those times.

[@justinauyeung1290]

The toxic spore event was pretty cool too! Now all we get is mount skins.

[@zhaoyunzhaozilong]

@@justinauyeung1290 ahhh yes the toxic spore event

[@babaspector]

the karka and marionette events were amazing

[@rosetoren3881]

Yes me too. I took a break for two years and then started again. I had fun for two weeks, but unfortunately I can't catch up on my own.

[@Leppits]

By far my favorite experience in any MMORPG ever. Thank god I had semester break during that I 24/7 those and I regret nothing.

[@meidomiseri]

I would love to see more open exploration in MMOs that revolves around players actually discovering secrets and new things that dont get announced with big bold text

[@xeno9754]

Or World events happening becourse players did something like opening a cript that somehow was the resting place of a giant horde that attacks everything in its surrounding so now players have to band together and stop the tide before the horde consumes all. That would be needet to be a 1 time event. Once its over its over. No second coming etc. The horde would need to be able to permanently destroy NPC settlements and change the landscape. Or one time world bosses that while alive give permanent debuffs to everyone. But current MMOs would never try to do something like that. After all "everyone should get a chance to play all content." God i hate people who believe that.

[@Ammuze11]

I'm still enjoying FF14 and especially the story it presents. I can't wait for the next expansion because I really want to see how the story plays out.

[@lightcluster7402]

"MMORPG the most unloved near forgotten genre" RTS Games: ( : - ; )

[@reddead0514]

R.I.P. Red Alert,Starcraft, and Warcraft

[@Yayaloy9]

@@reddead0514 Me, a Starcraft II player...

[@MacEbes]

funnily enough, Minecraft server factions are what I would consider the closest to a player driven ever changing world, especially if special plugins or mods are involved.

[@poptalgia9653]

Archage was the closest to “perfection” at the beginning.

[@Jamesmovingcastle]

the grind vs enjoyment/payoff was just too much to keep my group playing. Kraken was 10/10 when it started, really great memories of that.

[@guncore]

When they changed the currencies it was the beginning of the end.

[@nxamaya]

Archeage has been the only mmorpg that created memorable stories for me, I remember the blockades, the massive donkey pilgramage on a zeppelin, the kraken fights, the fishing, the pack stealing.... I hope something comes as close to that one day.

[@GaryMcwr]

Day 1 archeage already had insane crafting RNG and credit card pvp.

[@GameplayzOfficial]

Yes, I loved it so much, but later decisions made it so P2W that it was depressing.

[@TheclaofUrth]

I've always wanted to get into mmorpgs but I never know where to start

[@senpai-sama-6675]

Same

[@CrzndlSndr]

FFXIV isn't bad, but as Peon said that's in comparison to other mmo's. Questing is uninspired, story is a drag, you don't really get to the fun stuff until endgame. Imagine having to play a game like Mass Effect or Resident Evil for 120 hours BEFORE it gets fun. You just wouldn't do it. That's the state of mmo's. Low bars that doesn't take much to reach. Elder Scrolls Online imo is the only one that combines questing, combat, world exploration etc. into a package that I would give a 7/10. Every other mmo (and I tried a lot of them) would probably be a 5 or below. It's a stale genre in desperate need of a serious jolt.

[@hoonshiming99]

I would recommend Guild Wars 2. It’s free, the combat is good, story’s probably one of the best in mmorpgs, and has a pretty chill and welcoming community. The downsides are probably the graphics as its somewhat outdated and u have to purchase one of its expansions to unlock mounts.

[@jon4715]

15 years ago in WoW. Otherwise I don't see a point, because that feeling will never happen again.

[@DavidLee-vi8ds]

@@hoonshiming99 Genuinely the best community, very welcoming to new and casual players. It looks pretty but outdated. ESO is newer and looks better but I think GW2 has more engaging gameplay.

[@frodehorgen2519]

So basically you want EvE in a fantasy MMO or Sci-fi like Knight's of the old Republic, that is a full sandbox MMO and yeah we dont have a lot of those and i fully agree with you. for a MMO to be successful you need to build the foundation for player interaction like EvE have done with the story and theme is just color of the painting or backdrop where the players can create their own story of who and what they want to be.

[@danamccarthy5514]

Yeah, my first thought was he was describing Eve

[@Kynareth6]

Thing is, MMOs are not pushing boundaries and possibilities. Whole gaming isn't really. It's all mostly graphics improvements. I saw however first attempts at actual neural network GPT-3 AI for NPCs, it's very promising and probably the future of gaming.

[@frodehorgen2519]

@@Kynareth6 yeah there has been no real pushing the boundaries inn gaming since the console wars and graphics wars with Nvidia and AMD. Almost 20 years ago. When I played consoles, when I grew up. we saw new boundaries being broken each years, and every 2-3 years we had a big jump forward, now it seems the gaming companies just want to play it safe and create a proven formula with new skin to sell. And mmorpg almost everyone has given up trying, as their focus was to beat blizzard and wow. instead of just letting the artists and creative part of the gaming studios to take the leading hand in developing a good game.

[@Giemma3]

I’d put it more like: What Star Citizen is supposed to become, or at least what they tell us it is supposed to become, maybe a little less simulation and a little more arcadey This in a fantasy scenario a la WoW (classic/tbc era, not this over the top bfa/sl stuff). 🥲

[@Kynareth6]

The problem with EvE is that it's hard to get into and not everyone is into spaceships.

[@ToBeLikeAlways]

i think no matter what hidden boss a game would add, its going to be quickly figured out by players and become another farm routine. You cant script enough unique events for each player.

[@Xbob42]

That's okay, just keep adding more, and make sure a few are *really* hard to figure out. Even if someone can't fight a boss for years, the possibility alone makes worlds feel so much bigger than they are.

[@benjaminwatson7868]

@@Xbob42 the point is that adventure isn’t fun without some difficulty

[@Amgarrak]

​@@Xbob42 eventually you just end up doing stuff like the Waist of Time belt, the Baal pet, the Hivemind mount. Where the only way people figure out how to unlock it is through datamining (to even know it exists in the first place) and trial and error (having an entire discord channel dedicated to it). That isn't exactly good content to put into an mmo. Even if we were to excuse the datamining part and just focus on people adventuring, if the developers get too obtuse with how your supposed to unlock something, its gonna be seen as a waste of time by most players until a guide is made on how to unlock it.

[@revan1202]

@@Xbob42 also time based maybe they figure out but the results and location might change. Maybe a ritual requiring rare items to summon these things help instead of go here and click this objects for profit. If the developer puts in the effort of a struggle and done right it will feel rewarding.

[@Red-fg9qr]

With AI improvements, you'd actually be surprised what can be achieved today. I am waiting for a full AI controlled MMORPG game, where there's an AI story system that develops over time with user's actions and an AI action system that develops the systems to make the story work. AI is able to write code, there's nothing stopping devs to exploit this for an ever changing MMORPG with unlimited story and systems. By this you could make a hidden boss spawn after meeting some requierements the story AI sets, and trigger different events depending on the outcome, pretty much you'd give a seed narrative to the story AI and it'd develop over time with no hard coded path.

[@evilkun3612]

almost every game devs nowadays : "Do you guy's not have phones?" xD

[@redi8229]

please don't compare most game devs to those scummy devs. As a dev myself, i assure you we're not mostly that

[@ranmark4408]

Mobile is the future. Haters gonna hate :)

[@ghastlygibus2121]

@@ranmark4408 how the freak mobile will be the future when u have a PC which can emulate any other platforms Old mobile games was ok until this hungry for money from mobile game devs just started to ruin everything From fake ads to recharge to unlock something which u cant get it normaly

[@makemoola5145]

@@ranmark4408 eww autoplay trash

[@Argo257]

The sad part is that mobile games make more money than console and pc games combined And yes everyone has a phone nowadays so we're fucked i guess

[@Varichan]

You entirely lost me, when you proposed mixing pve and pvp. I fucking hate pvp. I hate ruining someones game. I pull exactly zero joy out of takking someones objective away and even less to just fight someone for the sake of fighting someone. Equally i hate, when somebody else does it to me. Every time someone engaged me in world pvp, during the days, when i was forced to play on a pvp server, i just rolled my eyes and had them just kill me, so that the wasted time would be as little as possible.

[@evacody1249]

What you said.

[@TITANpwn]

Good. I love getting salty messages from PvE people when they step into PvP areas, it fuels me. I wish for more PvP / PvE mixes just to see more like you, keep them coming

[@codenameaki6614]

looks at albion online with the world bosses that nobody kills

[@forestcityfishing4749]

@@TITANpwn No glory in killing easy prey, just makes you look bad.

[@Varichan]

@@TITANpwn Too bad, you won't get a salty message from me. I'll just roll my eyes, do the corpse run and move on with my day. And should the waste of time become too annoying, i just log out and play something else. Not like i don't have 400 games in my steam library. Also... i wonder what it says about you, that you wish for more people, who won't fight back, because they are not interested...sounds to me like someone, who cannot keep their own against people, who actually do. But what do i know, i'm just a talking gumball machine.

[@yuse310]

I actually teared up when i heared "i can't wait to see what mmorpg will be in the future"

[@austinevans2944]

"Today I explain the absolute state of mmorpgs but first a word from our sponsors." Not shitting on you but I found it funny. Definently a prime example of where the money flows in gaming.

[@The_Gaming_Gryphon]

The saddest part is he really needs those shitty game sponsors in order to keep food on the table

[@jhonviel7381]

@@The_Gaming_Gryphon yeah he needs better work conditions. poor guy

[@Pilinseff]

Have you ever considered why they sponsor?

[@WouldYouKindlyGWAR]

I'm still having fun with Guild Wars 2. It's the only mmo I ever really got into.

[@striggg161]

God knows how many times I tried to keep my friends playing this game for longer than 1 month. I failed every time. The feeling of meaningless content is just so bad if nothing feels rewarding there tbh absolutely nothing

[@dvdtjeeh]

I pre-ordered GW2 and was there at launch... When after a few hours I still couldn't get a simple freaking bow while that's what I want/need for my class, I was done with it honestly... I saw warriors in full armor running with a bow and I was stuck with an axe. How's GW2 now?

[@MacStatic]

@@dvdtjeeh much better now, but that game never lived up to its hype. Lots of promises and none of them kept. I still play every now and then

[@DEZZA12]

Doesnt it feel lonely?

[@ilovehentai942]

@@DEZZA12 in the slightest, gw2 is a really populated game as far as ive seen, and tbh is really chill, ive been playing for 1 month now but already played 300 hours, it reignited the love that i had for mmos have been looking for so long, the game enforce alot the "play together" aspect with things like if several players kill the same monster, both get the almost full xp for the monster as if u killed it alone, that makes if u want to lvl with a friend something viable, also u get exp for almost everything, u are not limited to just kill monsters to lvl up, u can explore the world, kill monster, try pvp since they give u lvl 80 stats and gear while in pvp to make a fair match, also the systems that it has really reduces the competitive and elitist aspect, obviously it still exists , but not so much like in other games and something that sold ME, since i love the fashion aspect of a game, is the MASIVE character customization since all the armour can be dyed and there are tons of clothes, note that this is my preference, i started enjoying the game more when i got the expansion since it unlocks so many things, but it a really solid game, also a very friendly community, and this is just a recommendation but talk to people, its really easy to make friends there and you will enjoy a lot more the game with at least one friend, give a try to the game, its really good

[@shahmi94]

For me, for MMO to work as player-driven world consequence they really need to work on the classes. MMOs now just enables you to play any classes and complete the game solo, hindering any reason to play with other players. I like how having a balance party is a thing.

[@WilliamSmith-rt8lh]

Warhammer: Age of Reckoning was the MMO for me. I think a complete remake would probably tick most of your boxes. I enjoy Return of Reckoning but it certainly feels dated.

[@cenciqt6045]

YES it's honestly such a good game

[@theeldergeek7800]

If only they could stop fire mages shooting people through keep walls!🤣

[@Vesacek]

Id like to see another Warhammer MMO, but just start from scratch with fresh ideas, dont remake game from 2008.

[@malfute]

The world pvp in that game was the bee's knees. Holding off a mob of players alone atop a castle ramparts by dumping flaming oil on 'em while they were trying to bust down the main gate never got old. haha.. I miss that gem of an mmo.

[@TheProjectX3]

This guy was the last man standing for the genre, now it feels like an official declaration of death for MMORPG.

[@JustScrapHD]

more like a call to arms

[@BlunderB]

Mirrors edge master race, this is still my Xbox Gamertag from when it came out orignally

[@ClstlDrmr83]

As a teacher of mine used to say, " it might be the 'Cream of the Crop', but it might be the 'Crap of the Cream'." I feel this is sums up MMOs right now.

[@Rataldo20]

“Who plays MMO for the story?” Well, me and almost every other FFXIV player??? what else can we expect tho about a guy that said that FFXIV was a boring game right after skipping the whole story lmao. ALSO THIS GUY SERIOUSLY CONSIDERS THE STORY A FEATURE? LOL

[@XFreeStyleZX]

I've just played through ARR. The story is absolute garbage, even by Final Fantasy standards. It's literally "You become the chosen Warrior of Light and join a company of young adults to kill evil Primals. But there's a shady evil organization pulling the strings..." Like come on lmao.

[@Rataldo20]

@@XFreeStyleZX ARR is consider among most of the player base to be absolute trash i can give you that. but i must say heavensward story is what hook me to play this. and i have been on this mmo for more than 3 years now. i liked every expansion after that and shadowbringers just did better than heavensward imo. so clearly the devs learnt from that and at least in my case what makes me sub for every patch is literally to know what happens next on the story.

[@Dewkeeper]

@@XFreeStyleZX well everyone already agrees with you that a realm reborn plot is boring and generic. Patch 2.4 onwards the plot picks up pace and takes those generic jrpg foundations and uses them to do some dope shit. This isn't an empty "Oh it gets better" bs either, the plot, dialogue and characters all see huge improvements in writing and the voice acting improves massively. The transition from 1.0 to a realm reborn to heavensward is probably the most impressive turnaround in the entire industry.

[@morphreynard6764]

It is not like the games arent good anymore, its just that there are less players, because people doesnt want to spend countless hours to farm for something. Thats is the reason why i also get tired, but that is essence of mmorpg, i still love the genre but i dont have the patience anymore.

[@Shishomuru]

This 100% it's why when I did play MMO's I typically played on private servers that had anywhere from 100 to 1000x exp/drop rates.

[@ssumbra5648]

Your toughts my friend represent very well the evolution of my favorite mmo, OSRS. I still play that game but it saddens me to the core that the social aspect of the game has mostly died in favor of the grind. Throw in malicious people and those who consider the game something to mAke mon ney on and youve got a really bad mix. Still love the game, but im sad i cant try to make random friends on the game for fear of getting scammed.

[@bedric3858]

Some people enjoy grinding nonstop believe it or not

[@morphreynard6764]

@@bedric3858 I believe, i used to be one of those people

[@sdjhgfkshfswdfhskljh3360]

It is only the part of the problem. If it is interesting for people to farm, they will do this.

[@IBradFrazer]

Old Runescape, Vanilla WoW, Guild Wars 1, etc, those were the days! I never considered myself a gamer, I was always a MMO gamer, and it is sad the state of the genre :'(

[@ohwhatworld5851]

I still play GW1. I use Reshade to update the graphics and it actually looks great.

[@Astares9]

even OSRS is crumbling. they essentially make the old way of playing useless as the endgame is the only timely profit you can make.

[@AshXXMayftw]

Ah, Guild Wars 1, my first MMO. I remember trying to seek out a party to journey to Lion's Arch and being so overwhelmed with joy when I finally managed to get there. Creating my own guild, buying each expansion, participating in the festivals, it really was a fun game. And GW2 is just as good imo, but nothing can beat that nostalgia.

[@ohwhatworld5851]

@@AshXXMayftw Yes such amazing memories! It was my first MMO too. GW2 is a great game too

[@ptahm1808]

Eve Online has that sense of community massively impacting the world, in PvP and PvE. But that is certainly not new (the mobile version kind of is) and pretty niche.

[@tinihawk]

Very niche but to be honest it's the closest thing out there that actually still is "MMO"

[@catriona_drummond]

Yeah, but EVE is a cesspit.

[@brunosouza3326]

I'd love to play EVE, but i never got too into excel tbh

[@catriona_drummond]

@@brunosouza3326 :D

[@Anghor]

Strange... each EvE player says loud that this is PVP-oriented game and without PVP + staying in nullsec this game is boring as hell. I was put off by how low impact hisec/pve players have on the game world.

[@ozzkur]

not sure how much it matters but the most recent raid in ffxiv, delebrum reginae, had a savage version that requires 48 people and I thought it was a ton of fun to go through on launch, it was cool working with a bunch of people to figure everything out