The Future of Klingon Empire

Star Trek VI The Undiscovered Country

[@gaggle64]

"There is an old Vulcan proverb: Only Nixon could go to China" might be the funniest line in the entire franchise.

[@blondiebxl]

Nixon being an Vulcan would explain a thing or two.

[@alexanderjones9572]

Imagine if Chekov had been there. “Nixon? China? I don’t think so, sir. The proverb is ‘only Lenin could go to America. It was inwented in Russia.”

[@blondiebxl]

@@alexanderjones9572It would explain a thing or two about Lenin too 😂

[@danielthomas345]

I give it honorable mention. First choice is Sarek explaining why he married Amanda It was the only logical thing to do.

[@bryanpassifiume8255]

@@danielthomas345What a romantic

[@TheMakoShark90]

Sisko's dad really hates klingons.

[@K-11609]

But after his arrest and dishonorable discharge, he desired one thing and one thing alone: cooking

[@Slopmaster]

and Changings.

[@PrincessToyNerd]

Whatever did the Klingons do to him?

[@Psiros]

The Klingons gave his restaurant a 1-star review.

[@SirMarshalHaig]

@@K-11609 Well when I think how fresh he looked around a century later it certainly worked well for him ;)

[@MatthewF21]

Each time I hear Cartwright's protest, his point about being defenseless against an aggressive species always makes me think of the Borg.

[@admiral889]

This was just before the hippies took over. They had to relearn that most of the galaxy didn't wish them well. You're not wrong.

[@roberthaworth8991]

The real import of Cartwright's protest is that he's a Black admiral, yet calls Klingons "the alien trash of the galaxy." The camera lingers on the startled reaction of McCoy, a Southerner, who is no doubt thinking of how Blacks used to be regarded in his own home region of Earth.

[@joeswanson733]

cartwrigh is not wrong. lots of baddies in space.

[@dylanmesser3957]

@@roberthaworth8991 If I remember correctly, in one of the behind the scenes videos, the actor who portrayed Cartwright had a hard time delivering that line for that very reason. It took him several takes.

[@thetenthplanet_]

@@roberthaworth8991 I never even copped that! I had always thought the shock was more so because a member of Starfleet would say something genuinely bigoted in a time where humans are supposed to be better than that. The fact he's black never even crossed my mind. Lord this script is layered.

[@khfan4life365]

“Let them die.” That gave me chills.

[@rc1982]

Great line, great delivery.

[@coleslade]

I think the best part about it is the second afterwards. You can see even Kirk can't believe in that moment that he would say such a thing. He sticks to his guns, sure. Still too hurt, too angry to back down. But just that small bit of personal disbelief shows he isn't completely consumed by it.

[@girl1213]

Shows how human Kirk is: he has his ideals and morals, but his years of pain and hardship with the Klingons are deep scars that only deepened with the murder of his son. He sees Kruge in every Klingon now and can't get past it in this moment. Spock knows Kirk has the ability to look passed Kruge's memory, but at the moment he underestimates how deeply sunken in he is in Kirk.

[@ryans756]

It's a great line that adds emphasis to the best line in the entire Star Trek universe, in my opinion... When the Enterprise appears to fire on Kronos One and Chang prepares to engage with Kirk in battle; Kirk, overcoming his own personal desire to "let them die" and trusting in Spock's vision: "Signal our surrender." Captain?! "We surrender!" That is the scene that defines James T. Kirk for me, the very best line in all of Star Trek.

[@JMUDoc]

Shatner was not happy with the edit - he had Kirk recoil immediately after saying it, but Meyer and/or Bennett covered over it with the cut to Spock, making Kirk look a lot less sympathetic.

[@marqc.9904]

The look on Spock's face after Kirk says, "Let them die," was one of those tiny, perfect bits of non-verbal acting that made Nimoy such a legend. He's actually--dare I say--offended and shocked by his best friend's response. It's a rare moment of Kirk's Captain mask slipping and his human face completely showing itself. And Spock, his dearest friend of over 30 years is speechless. It really was indicative of not only a great script and fine direction, but two actors who truly knew their characters playing them off of one another perfectly.

[@samsmith2635]

I agree with Kirk on that one. Survival of the fittest.

[@girl1213]

@@samsmith2635And become the monster you spent years fighting against?

[@AdurianJ]

It's also clear that Kirk is a bit embarrassed over his feelings towards the Klingons as he mellows temporarily after saying "Let them Die" but he's also past caring.

[@SiXiam]

@@AdurianJ Kirk may be mad here (with his son) and say bad things, but in the end he always does the right thing when it matters. Even meshes in with Star Trek Beyond. That we can't keep fighting the same battles.

[@user-hb8bt2hg1x]

What he says here and at the end of the movie shows how even the most stubborn of viewpoints can change.

[@zacharyfett2491]

It is only now that I am older that I understand the director’s choice of having Spock and Kirk having this conversation at opposite ends of a long table. Very well done!

[@DMDMDM01]

I watched this movie so much as a kid in the 90's, never really understanding the parallels to the US/Russian tensions and the end of the cold war. Very interesting to see Kirk and Spock on opposite sides of the table in this scene, when they have been mutually supportive of the cause of the other in the past.

[@captain4053]

I've watched this movie so much I memorized this scene word for word I love this movie

[@bobpage6597]

Two loyal friends - yet VERY far apart on the issue of the Klingons and how to proceed. That's how I interpret it anyway aha.

[@robyeone7976]

Great observation.

[@djfoord]

It's perfect. Shows them far apart on opposite ends of the issue. It's choices like that that make this the best Star Trek movie.

[@gate7clamp]

I find it amazing how they were able to put the allegory of Chernobyl and the eventual collapse of the Soviet union in this movie

[@briansmith2739]

That's the Inspiration for the movie. The opening draft was different from the final version where you see the Klingon ship from Voyage Home at a scrap yard and Sulu flying a futuristic Taxi. This was scrapped due to budget constraints.

[@quattro4s]

@@briansmith2739 has it been filmed ?

[@KuDastardly]

They made a retconned video game which takes place before the events of Star Trek VI leading to the conclusion as to why the Klingons were so desperate to mine the Hell outta Praxis in disregard for safety protocols.

[@konradpietrzak3842]

Chernobyl was just one factor. The entire Eastern Bloc was in crisis, in Poland Solidarity was gaining more and more support despite the Martial Law, the costs of the invasion of Afghanistan were increasing, the economic crisis meant that there was a shortage of basic products so discontent was growing, it seems that even local armies composed of conscripts began to refuse to act against citizens.

[@florinivan6907]

@@konradpietrzak3842 No army refused anything outside of individual incidents. Conscript armies always deployed conscripts at a large distance from home to avoid any fraternisation. The truth is they ran out of money.

[@senseweaver01]

4:19 Spock: "There's an old Vulcan proverb: 'Only Nixon could go to China.'" Hang on, what?

[@christinacody5845]

That's what I was thinking when watching this scene. One of two things is possible here. 1) The Vulcan that T'Pol mentioned in her story to Archer and Tucker of a small group of Vulcans who crashed on Earth with a team (the team except for him ultimately return to Vulcan) possibly sent messages to Vulcan. 2) He's joking.

[@kathic6402]

Spock is telling a joke.

[@senseweaver01]

@@kathic6402 Sp... Spock is telling a joke? Spock? How very... huma- and I'm sad again, damn it!

[@sbotti4294]

It wasn’t a joke, he was serious. Later in the movie there is another line about experiencing Shakespeare in the “original Klingon”. These species have been in regular contact for centuries at this point. Vulcans and humans have been especially close. It’s not unreasonable to assume they would have rigorously studied our history.

[@senseweaver01]

@@sbotti4294 Yes, but then he would've said there is an proverb from Earth. But he said it was a Vulcan proverb. And I'm pretty sure Nixon was human, although he did seem pretty Ferengi to me

[@BPond7]

Those uniforms are SO good! Designed in 1981, and seen on film the following year, they’re still timeless, over four decades later. 🖖😀

[@AdurianJ]

The Belt buckle is the only thing on that uniform that's not timeless.

[@slewone4905]

better than what they have now.

[@blockmasterscott]

I love those uniforms too! 👍💪

[@Beuwen_The_Dragon]

​@AdurianJ what's wrong with the belt buckles?

[@blockmasterscott]

@@Beuwen_The_Dragon I’d like to know that too, I don’t see anything wrong with them.

[@hub5343]

I like how the cast has aged, and how mature they are in scenes like this. In fact, I miss movies which have a room full of mature adults, it adds weight to the situation and gives credence to the stakes being discussed. It is not trendy nowadays, with the trend being teenagers on screen, but they are simply not convincing. There is a trend also to replace cast with younger actors or depict younger versions of themselves - this robs the characters of the development that comes from experience. Kirk's 'wounded' performance would not be possible with a 'young Kirk', and Spocks wizened face gives additional weight to his words. I miss seeing people in their 50's and 60's or even 70's on the screen.

[@dragonsword7370]

There is a filming background reason for casting 'rebooted cast, younger, hipper, fresher etc.' The older the actors get the harder it is to act long hours on stressed long and fastpaced movie shoots. Actors die more likely as they get older and such. There is a pragmatic reasoning for rebooting really old franchises today but at least 2009's Trek did it with the express ideal to start newer stories without as many chains in canon holding it back[it didn't really but it had that potential]. It Also was respectable because Nimoy was included a great deal with the legacy in that franchise that he had an unwritten producers credit for the first 2. It's a pragmatic and cruel reason for why studios do that but it's where we're at right now in movie making with the transitioning of all the actors right now.

[@hitandruncommentor]

I agree. I am very very tired of coming of age stories, of oh we need to let the young lead foolishness. (Who should lead isn't a matter of age or experience but ability)

[@hub5343]

@@dragonsword7370 I understand the commercial need, however it is better to make a new Star Trek series with just a few of the new generation instead of replace old actors. The new Treks also have a kind of 'youth worship' - there is hardly any mature people at all on screen except for an occasional villain. It's as if the Federation (or the entire Universe for that matter) now consists entirely of teenagers, as soon as they hit their twenties they are whisked off to oblivion.

[@petergianakopoulos4926]

I prefer a cadet not yet graduated become captain in his first days on the enterprise.

[@hub5343]

@@petergianakopoulos4926 But the message is: If you're inexperienced and young you could be as good as anyone else. This is absolutely the WRONG message. Inexperience has its costs, and it is hubris to think that an inexperienced person can do the same job as an experienced one. The hero-worship of the youth today is intolerable - so much so that older people are often seen as liabilities, not assets, in popular culture. The value of a seasoned, wise and measured approach developed over many years of experience seems diminished as a result.

[@mikebasil4832]

I can deeply sympathize with Kirk. Knowing that the Klingons killed Kirk’s son and yet still forcing him onto this mission is one of the worst examples of how ruthless and heartless the authorities of Star Fleet can seem.

[@develynseether4426]

The C-in-C was only 50 here yet held the highest rank in Starfleet, classic example of an ass-kissing politician who doesn't actually give a crap about the little guy.

[@demonofelru3214]

Peace was more important than Kirks personal feelings in their mind.

[@mikebasil4832]

@@demonofelru3214 Very good point. Still they should have been more sensitive to Kirk’s inevitable dilemma.

[@demonofelru3214]

@@mikebasil4832 Absolutely agree.

[@girl1213]

Kirk is trying to not fall into the pit he's seen so many Starfleet officers fall into over the course of his career as Enterprise's captain. He lectured them (and the audience) so deeply on the morals they broke and why they shouldn't be broken. But now he has a better understanding of why and how that happened better than he ever had before. He has to stand by what he said all those years ago. He already killed the man that killed his son and the man who order his death, but he's still not satisfied, however he *morally* has to be. That's why he doesn't want to do this: he fears himself very much.

[@hitandruncommentor]

What a performance. On both nemoy's and shatner's part. The look of anger and resentment on Kirk's face, realization on spoks that he might have made a mistake, the "let them die" in understated rage only for the breath and open horror on Kirk's face, the excuse, the attempt to escape, the counter of why did you do this to me to us, "you should have trusted me" and Spok's calm quiet understanding all but screaming that he does trust Kirk and their little interchange is exactly why. Only to exceptional actors can pull that off, with well crafted and developed characters.

[@clairestark9024]

Yeah, it's something said in a moment of anger which he doesn't really mean. We've all been there, the darkest ugliest part of ourselves off the leash for a second.

[@kommandantgalileo]

and they say Shatner can't act...

[@trazyntheinfinite9895]

​@@kommandantgalileo"they" obviously never seen him in other stuff

[@isaacvega8310]

These movies don't get the credit they deserve. This scene is beautifully written and acted. You have best friends with differing opinions, having a rational discussion. No yelling, No fighting, just mutual respect.

[@thewewguy8t88]

i think they do. its just one big complaint i personally have with this movie is i sort of wish this timeline was also a series.

[@veleriphon]

Spock's surprise at Kirk's reaction is priceless. He expected at least a hint of positivity from his old friend.

[@lobby-3alliance196]

Spock was beside himself, speaking for Kirk he should have known that Kirk has a real distrust and resentment toward the Klingons. As Kirk puts it "You have personally vouched" ????

[@JeffreyWillis800]

I love how they had full confidence in Kirk to accomplish the mission, even if he didn't believe in it fully.

[@alexpowers4388]

Here a few days after William Shatter became the oldest human ever to fly into space. Legend.

[@robw4199]

Well deserved and his response was awesome 👌

[@colincampbell3679]

Shame then he did not fly in space, just go up the edge of space then drop back down! To be a Astronaut, truly be in space you need to be in a full orbit of the earth or other planet or moon. just up and down to the edge of the atmosphere is not worthy of the term Astronaut. He should have gone on the Crew Dragon mission by a real rocket of Space X, then he could have really been an Astronaut in full orbit and even gone to the ISS. Now that would have been better. Not go for a short sub-semi orbital up and down in the crappy Blue Origin tiny rubbish rocket by Jeff Bazos company.

[@discordlexia2429]

@@colincampbell3679 Haha my billionaire shyster is better than your billionaire shyster!

[@michaelowenmcmahon]

By NASA definition he is an astronaut.

[@andrewmorrison5289]

"don't believe them, don't trust them" might be the best delivered line in the film.

[@cha02psc]

“Star Trek has always been political”. Well, yes. Allegorically. Damn this is a well-written and well performed scene. Star Trek VI is such a good film.

[@ChipsNCellos]

Yes, the modern takes on this franchise pale in comparison to what you’re watching right here! The new stuff is completely unserious. It’s made for memes and virtue signaling. This is made for adults.

[@cha02psc]

@@ChipsNCellos agreed. There is so much subtext going on here, combined with the history of these characters going back 25 years by that point. The writing hasn’t improved post-2016 imo

[@ptolemeeselenion1542]

Jusy different political alignments.

[@ptolemeeselenion1542]

​@@ChipsNCellosMy thoughts exactly.

[@borgCube100]

@@ChipsNCellos Oh fuck up you petulant child. It's a show about space elves and phasers. "virtue signalling" is just another term y'all morons make up for diversity.

[@user-lk7cv8vg7r]

2:30 The quick shot of McCoy's reaction is a nice touch.

[@montessaurus]

2:26 The Undiscovered Country is my favorite Star Trek movie of all time. Dr McCoy has always I feel been a meta conduit for the audience, in the sense that he's just a guy who happens to be there along for the ride. During the Original Series, he's got a kind of thinly veiled racist, deprecating attitude towards Spock and his Vulcan lineage. It's humorous because it's framed that way. This reaction from him (

[@TheRivrPrncess]

McCoy was never a racist nor did he think like one. He merely did not understand Spock. Understanding people who were different and getting along with them even if you didn't understand them was one of the themes of Star Trek TOS. But you are right that McCoy has matured. I myself cringed at Cartwright's "alien trash" comment.

[@bigchunga4982]

There's another comment in here. Where someone pointed out that mcoy was probably thinking of how blacks were regarded as less than human in old America. It's neat to showcase how old prejudices can transform from oppressed to oppressor. Just another thing we have to learn to do away with.

[@mauziki]

McCoy racist?! That way Spock also was pretty insulting about humans at time.

[@Mr_Smythes_Confections]

I believe that the later stories show how BOTH Bones AND Spock have transcended the prejudices and attitudes of their respective youths.

[@evil10]

4:50 Spock: They are dying Kirk: "Let them die !” Spock: O*O *Oh sh!t* The split second where Spock loses his emotional integrity and is visibly surprised. This is a more battle hardened and merciless Kirk.

[@terrywest111]

It's an awesome moment for sure. I don't begrudge Kirk his outburst. Some think because he said that, it made him less heroic. I think it made him much more human... more realistic. Much more like a real man could be. The Klingons had hurt him in the past... they had killed his son, whom he was just beginning to get to know. Not to mention the many conflicts that we both know and as of yet don't know. (Because I believe there are still several years of Kirk's life... many more adventures, that haven't been written about) We also have to remember that Kirk is a still a military man (and yes, Starfleet is a military organization no matter what Picard said), coming up in the Federation and no doubt being drilled with a lot of Anti-Klingon propaganda. He has a lot of understandable distrust and prejudice against the Klingons... and that's just to say the least. I'm sure there was some real down right hatred which might have been made worse by the death of his son. When Kirk says, "Don't believe them! Don't trust them!" I often thought that he was reciting the training that they both had received in regards to the Klingons. Often times, Governments train their people to hate their enemies. Hell... it could have even been propaganda that they had heard even before they joined Starfleet. Things that they had come up with in school. Like was done in the U.S. about the Russians/Communists. I still caught the tail end of that anti-Russia propaganda in the 80s when I grew up. I don't think it was as bad as what people in the 50s and 60s got... but it was there. Despite the Federation's idealistic rhetoric... it's declaration of being for equality, you know that bigotry and distrust always bubble just beneath the surface. Hell... look at how they viewed the Founders. That's human. And despite the Federation being made up of hundreds of alien species and cultures, as Kirk himself once said: "Everybody's human".

[@josephmargetanski912]

@@terrywest111 - Ironically, Worf felt much the same way about the Romulans. They killed his biological parents. I could imagine a scenario where the Romulans would sue for peace, and Worf would make a similar argument, even saying "let them die!" And have Spock say something like "I remember a certain Enterprise captain saying much the same about YOUR people."

[@Sigma0283]

@@josephmargetanski912 That kinda did happen in Star Trek Nemesis. However, when the Romulans came to aid Enterprise against Scimitar, Worf (Who had always viewed Romulans as having no honor) commented "The Romulans fought with honor."

[@jmwoods190]

​@@josephmargetanski912 And he did feel a similar way about Quark, perhaps to a lesser extent. Klingons despised Ferengis in general, and Worf tolerated him even though he was clearly jealous of the fact that Quark bagged Grilka while he couldn't(just because of his dishonor).

[@jmwoods190]

@@terrywest111 It was a natural emotional reaction from Kirk, of which Spock did not account for at all when he personally vouched for Kirk. Plus as a Vulcan(with his human half sidelined) Spock has no human ego, which on the bright side makes him impartial, but on the dark side makes him insensitive. I'd react similarly if a friend of mine arranged me to deal with someone I really don't like without consulting me. Spock had since realized this after the brush with death Kirk & Bones had despite the ultimate success of the Khitomer Accords, and hence went for secret cowboy diplomacy when he engaged in Romulan-Vulcan reunification efforts.

[@BlacKnightRising]

"How could you vouch for me? that's arrogant presumption." -- well hell yes!

[@Okiedog1]

"Monitored" an explosion? It knocked everyone aboard out of their seats!

[@GeoStreber]

even worse, it knocked that tea cup over.

[@StrayCatOrwell]

Even worse than the tea, all the beans fell out of the cupboard.

[@ulysses2162]

@@StrayCatOrwell 😄😄

[@PhantomObserver]

Spock tends to have a penchant for bureaucratic understatement. Some of his explanations during TOS fall right into that characterization.

[@mephistoxarses8585]

Love those uniforms!

[@redbassist5590]

I love Spock's expression after Kirk says "Let them die!"

[@girl1213]

He expected it, but it's still not something he wanted to hear. He knows his friend that well. He knows Kirk wants peace, but Kirk *never* expected the Klingons to make the first move towards it. It contradicts *everything* Kirk ever knew about them. Spock wants him to open his mind about his enemy because it's the only way Kirk can ever find peace with them.

[@el-kiote]

@@girl1213 I don't think he expected it at all. He expected sympathy and was left speechless when Kirk said that.

[@klatuk4u1]

That is an incredibly well written scene. The amount of information conveyed I'm such a short time is elegant and efficient. Damn good!

[@davfree9732]

“Let them diiiie…” And then, the lesser referenced moment when Kirk realises what he just said… It’s similar to the time when Kirk advocated for war with the Klingons in front of the Organians. It’s not what he really wants, but he alone can’t stem the tide of resentment that wells up within him. He can only feel the tinge of shame that the Klingons have hardened his heart against.

[@davfree9732]

The anger may be real and healthy, but he doesn't want the Klingons to go extinct. Not really. And Spock who put him on this path is suddenly faced with the realisation that he'd grossly underestimated Kirks resentment and placed his friend in a terrible position for him to face. This was probably one of the motivating factors that had Spock do everything he could to help Kirk out the jam Spock put him in.

[@fipse]

@DriftZ TwoSeven So it is ok to hate an entire species because one member of that species killed your son?

[@L1z43vr]

@@fipse Shouldn't it be okay if said species was constantly trying to kill you, your friends, and possibly the entirety of the navy that claims its purpose is exploration, plus when you add in the cold war factor and the fact that they constantly tried to find loopholes on the Neutral zone... Yeah I'd say hating the Klingons at this point in time was a fairly popular opinion.

[@redpillfreedom6692]

@DriftZ TwoSeven "They murdered his son" No, two Klingons specifically are responsible for his son's murder; the one who ordered it and the one who carried it out. Your comment is a guilt by association fallacy.

[@redpillfreedom6692]

@DriftZ TwoSeven "then forces his friend to be pals with the same types of people" Being the same species doesn't make someone the "same type" as the worst representatives of said species. By this logic, all humans are the "same type" as Stalin or Pol Pot.

[@phelimridley6727]

In the book adaptation of Star Trek VI - The Undiscovered Country there is more made of the political nuances. It describes how hawkish elements in the Klingon Empire might use the Praxis crisis to develop a close alliance with the Romulan Empire. Such an alliance would disastrous for the Federation. Spock seeks to cultivate relations with dove-ish elements in the Klingon empire, like Chancellor Gorkon. Which is why Gorkon is killed. This is not fleshed out in the movie. It's more emotion (Kirk's journey of reconciling his vengeful thoughts about his son) and action (a race against time to stop the bad man in his secret design ship killing the good guys).

[@johntabler349]

Much of that can be inferred in the movie but it is not explicitly stated , I think the lady admirals concern about mothballing the Starfleet deserved a better answer but it shows that in times like that extreme viewpoints rise to the top

[@Grubnar]

Klingon Academy also does a lot of explaining of what happens, and WHY, on the Klingon side. Has both Christopher Plummer and David Warner reprised their respective roles as General Chang and Chancellor Gorkon. It was very good!

[@slewone4905]

I was wondering what was the Romulans plan. They seem to be just added in the last minutes.

[@johntabler349]

@@slewone4905 could be explored in a supplemental novel I'm sure the official story is the ambassador worked alone and would take the fall if it failed but it is very logical for the Romulans to provoke trouble between their 2 great rivals

[@Grubnar]

@@slewone4905 The Romulans are trying to preserve the "balance of power". They are afraid that if the Federation and the Klingon Empire become too friendly towards each other, it will result in the Romulan Star Empire loosing power, because it will simply have no way to compete. Considering that is literally what happens, about 150 years later, they were right to be afraid.

[@BarryH1701]

Star Trek VI was absolutely the best way for the original Enterprise crew to bring their story to a satisfying conclusion. This was one of Star Trek's finest moments.

[@TheSpicyLeg]

A powerful scene. We know what happened to David, the enmity between the Klingons and Kirk, and the friendship here. The terse, sudden outburst of emotion, summed up in the line, “Let them die.”

[@Sigma0283]

While filming that line, Shatner wanted to say the line, then gesture as if he didn't mean to say this, and he made Meyer promise to show this on camera. However, in the final cut, after Kirk says "Let them die", this cuts to Spock looking surprised, and only goes back to Kirk, cutting over when Kirk gestures with regret.

[@TheSpicyLeg]

@@Sigma0283 I don’t think I agree with Shatner here. The scene hits so powerfully because we know this is out of character for Kirk. He’s grieving all he’s lost to the Klingons. We all can empathize with his feelings.

[@TheRivrPrncess]

@@Sigma0283 But the scene still works as we can see Kirk regretted the statement. And we know Kirk's character and his sense of compassion so we know his comment was from his pain and hurt and not of uncalled for malice.

[@mauziki]

And it completely forgets ST; V where kirk has no problems with the klingons.

[@ShannonCarter55]

​@@mauzikinovelisation gives us a scene that Chang tested his prototype on one Federation colony (or several) where Carol Marcus was and she was gravely injured and not expected to live. They'd just reconnected at the time and it caused Kirk's grief of David's death to come back in full force.

[@isaacdestura7495]

2:06 i swear that's the same actor as sisko's dad

[@PrincessToyNerd]

He is

[@charleskinsey2077]

Hey is

[@zachhoward9099]

Yep he is, Brock Peters

[@ajchovanec]

4:50 It's so chilling seeing Kirk say "Let them die" while standing in front of the stained glass Starfleet logos.

[@paladin50554]

Even though I was only 4 years old when it premiered Star Trek VI is still one of my two favorite Trek films. The other is Star Trek II. Nicholas Meyer directed two truly outstanding films.

[@pbettselectric134]

4 years old ! Dam I was 20

[@erincrosby9087]

I think I was 3

[@VLADIMIR007ISH]

Klingon Empire or Soviet Union by the time, the Klingon moon desater is refering Chenobyl

[@robyeone7976]

Spock’s the only Alien in the room… The “Diversity” of Star Fleet on full display. This could have been a Director’s Choice. Remember later in the film, The Klingons referred to The Federation as a “Homosapiens Only Club.”

[@thetenthplanet_]

Bare in mind Starfleet is the human organisation while the Federation is just something they're a part of along with Vulcans and other species. Like the UN or EU of space, only much more useful. It makes sense that a room full of high ranking Starfleet officers would be primarily human since, as mentioned above, it is a human organisation.

[@Ryan30z]

​@@thetenthplanet_ Starfleet isn't a human organisation. It was originally an Earth organisation, but prior to TOS it is a branch of the Federation. Even the Star Trek website says "Branch of the United Federation of Planets assigned to the exploration of space and the resulting scientific, diplomatic and defensive duties. Starfleet began as an Earth agency dedicated to space exploration." And no its not like the space UN or EU, the Federation is a single government. The UN and EU doesnt government its member countries.

[@thetenthplanet_]

@@Ryan30z Prior to TOS the federation wasn't a thing yet. If were going by Enterprise then yeah Stargleet come first, it did start of as human, as you say, but it still doesn't change the fact that it was a human organisation first. Aliens joined later once the federation was created. True but UN/EU was the best analogy I could think of.

[@Jeff-mn1uq]

Good. How it should be.

[@redpillfreedom6692]

The people running Nintendo are all Asian. Why? Because Nintendo is a Japanese invention. Being run exclusively by Asians doesn't make the board members racist.

[@Twister6424]

I didn't appreciate this dialogue when I was younger. Now having worked with similar entities in real life, I can honestly tell you, this isn't far off from reality at all. The only unrealistic part was how short the meeting was without any BS or "arm chair expert" offering useless advice.

[@Thechad201]

Every Star Trek fan knows this is up there as one of the best Star Trek movies. But outside of Star Trek fandom, Undiscovered Country is a highly under rated movie. Themes of racism, war, peace, hatred, are all present here in a focused, tight story, that stands the test of time. Great movie.

[@slewone4905]

I use it to refer to politics now.

[@jayenglish6631]

The way Kirk looks at Spock in anger and then the argument feels like how a couple argues . He felt so betrayed but Spock knew that Kirk had to be the one to do this. Not as the Captain of the Enterprise but as someone who hates the Klingons and the Klingons hated him. He knew Kirks wound would only be healed if he accepted it and faced it. The point is when we let go of our hate for each other, we can understand each other. Like Kirk said “Every body’s human.” Meaning we are all flawed and have our own problems. We should just talk and understand each other and they to help each other… treat others as you would want to be treated.

[@colinmontgomery1956]

Great point.

[@girl1213]

Letting go of hatred is never easy, but it's best to look at your enemy in the eye in order for it to be let go, not hiding or running away from it.

[@jmwoods190]

I actually strongly disagree that Spock's motive is to make Kirk face his wounds, poetic as it may be- rather Spock was too fixed in his Vulcan ways that he made 2 mistakes: 1) Trusting Valeris too much and 2) thinking too logically and too insensitive to Kirk's personal feelings(thus affecting his suitability for the mission) momentarily and almost costing his & Bones' lives; both of which he later came to regret as "arrogant presumptions". However, Kirk facing his wounds and reconciling with Klingons was much more incidental at the time- Spock never intended it but rather focused on fulfilling the diplomatic mission the logical way possible, and Kirk's epihany was a bonus.

[@joshuawells835]

When my father was describing Star Trek to a colleague from Oxford, he summed it up as "very Cold War", which the original series was. The United Federation of Planets was the United States of America, while the Klingon Empire was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Of all the Star Trek films, this one is the most Cold War, showing the end of hostile tensions between two great powers and the fears of change by people on both sides. This is why the Undiscovered Country is my favorite of the original series films.

[@ulysses2162]

And the Romulans are the Chinese/CCP.

[@tuchehstone]

Ahem... Star Trek. Not Star Wars.

[@joshuawells835]

@@tuchehstone Thank you for spotting this typographical error from 2 years ago.

[@joshuawells835]

@@ulysses2162 Actually, the Romulans are essentially the Roman Empire in Space. Hence the names Romulus (the founder and first King of Rome) and Remus (Romulus' twin brother) and clear Roman inspirations, such as the Romulan Senate, Praetor, Consul, and Pro-Counsul.

[@joshuawells835]

@Leo Peridot Well Klingon culture has been flushed out more than in the Original Series. And yes, the Ferengi are the sleazy car salesmen of the galaxy.

[@jedsithor]

Shatner's delivery of "Then let them die" is amazing.

[@malikhedir5586]

My favorite Star Trek movie with the original cast 👍 👍 👍

[@StinkyGreenBud]

My favorite Trek film period, in my opinion.

[@hpa2005]

Side note about this scene: after Kirk says "Let them die!" and we see Spock's stunned reaction, there was to be a moment were Kirk waves his hand as if to show he let his anger get the better of him for a brief moment.

[@girl1213]

Well it's not like Spock didn't expect it. It was more like he didn't realize how deep it went. Although half-human, and certainly having a better understanding of emotions then many Vulcans, Spock isn't as in touch with the negative side of his emotions, not like Kirk is. Spock can't gauge that. The fact that Kirk showed he's aware he shouldn't have said that but won't make excuses for it just renews Spock's faith that Kirk is able to work through the hatred for the sake of others, just not for himself (at that moment). He knew Kirk *wouldn't* fire the photon torpedos or a lasers at any Klingon during the mission.

[@hpa2005]

@@girl1213 True

[@joeswanson733]

@@girl1213 spock wasnt there when klingons killed david.

[@smartalec2001]

@@joeswanson733 Well, physically he was right there, and spiritually, he was in orbit of the planet at the time... but, yeah, I get you

[@blue387]

I like the round hole in the conference table and the distance of separation symbolizing the divide between Kirk and Spock in this scene

[@Wizardof]

Admiral Cartwright is an ancestor of Captain Benjamin Sisko. The Machiavellian attitude shows too.

[@girl1213]

Thankfully Joseph and Benjamin didn't take much after Cartwright expect his looks

[@maundamartin59]

Look how ADMIRAL CARTWRIGHT TOLD ON HIMSELF!!!!😂😂😂😂😂

[@johnfic4751]

It always sounded strange when one of the Starfleet personnel says Bill are we talking about mothballing the Starfleet instead of just saying the fleet.

[@roberthaworth8991]

The Federation commands a number of sub-warp vessels, starbases, and other facilities as well; Starfleet is thus just a subset of the Federation's total strength. Since only warp-capable vessels could possibly play in the Praxis contingency or get anywhere near the Neutral Zone, the officer was correct to specify the Starfleet.

[@Amann0407]

@@roberthaworth8991 I would venture that Starfleet was the naval component while the ships you mentioned were more akin to the Federation Coast Guard

[@gemmafenner5445]

Even stranger she has admirals uninform on and he calls her captain?

[@ShannonCarter55]

​@@gemmafenner5445blame just slapping on any costume into anyone just because it fits because Paramount wanted a slim budget. They barely got the budget they needed in the first place. Valeris' costume was a mixture of four or five different ones (thus why her rank sigil is lieutenant commander) and not a lieutenant).

[@krashlyboo]

Wow a trek story thats well written and executed and is easy to follow....and draws you in......must be old.

[@ihavegymnastics]

Hands down one of THE BEST Trek scenes EVER.

[@donovanjd3]

This was an excellent movie.

[@Tubanapoleon]

0:07 "What are we doing here?" The Plot demanded it so this story can happen

[@LordTalax]

Chekov and Uhura should have made captain by this point.

[@potsdam28]

If they hadn’t stolen the Enterprise they probably would have.

[@2097Pyros]

@@potsdam28 At least on Star Trek Online, Chekov ends up a Captain...and a Temporal Operative.

[@alphanerd7221]

Time doesn't make you captain and Chekov isn't good enough an officer.

[@samsonguy10k]

Staying in one place isn't conducive to promotions. Spock made Captain when the Enterprise was reassigned as a training vessel(which is considered a transfer) and Kirk returned to Starfleet Command. Scotty was promoted to Captain when he was transferred to the Excelsior. And Sulu taking command of the Excelsior later. Chekov did gain a promotion when he transferred to the Reliant. If memory serves, he was third in command there as Chief Science Officer. If things hadn't gone sideways, he would have made Captain by the time of the Praxis incident.

[@JT-vh3yd]

@DriftZ TwoSeven Uhura (pre-New Trek) was actually also a highly experienced technician, among other skills, and no less a legend for her accomplishments than her peers. It was her quick thinking which saved the Enterprise from Chang in this very movie. She didn't just "operate a switchboard" for her entire tour.

[@azurerainbow4637]

Even if Hikaru Sulu had been with his former Enterprise shipmates for this classified meeting over 3 years after he earned command of the U.S.S. Excelsior,, he would've felt shocked that Spock was chosen as the federation's special envoy and had vouched for James T. Kirk to be Starfleet's 1st olive branch after some of the Klingons destroyed the U.S.S. Grissom and everyone aboard her and then killed Kirk's son, David Marcus on Genesis, and Saavik was the only survivor there almost a decade earlier.

[@josephmassaro]

The fall of the Soviet Union and the current conflict with Russia are remarkable parallels to what might have happened if they had followed Admiral Cartwright's advice. Nato, Europe and the US had an opportunity in the early 90s to have a very different relationship with Russia, but real world politicians and military advisors felt as Cartwright did towards the Kilingons. That it was best to keep the Russians at an arms length, believing it would prevent them from ever becoming a serious geopolitical threat.

[@thp8777]

"to have compassion towards one's enemy is to be cruel to oneself " Sun Tzu.

[@josephmassaro]

@thp8777 Tell that to the Germany that lost WW1 and started WW2.

[@thp8777]

@@josephmassaro They didnt bring down to the knee the government of Germany during first world war that s why there was a second one, like they didnt do to the Soviet Union during the cold war (third world war), that could lead to a fourth one.

[@josephmassaro]

@thp8777 You don't think so? The crushing reparations imposed by the Allies were a short-sighted punishment that helped drive Germany into the arms of political extremism. If the Allies of WW1 had acted as the Allies WW2, a second world war might have been averted.

[@andrewnlarsen]

@@josephmassaro also don't forget the Great Depression.

[@James-hs3tu]

Love that line "A Foot hold on our territory. " 😆😆😆😆 2:33

[@tippycanoe99]

30 years later.... still grips me.

[@MatthewBluefox]

Admiral Toddman was a longlasting admiral ... in TOS and later in DS9, that's quite a career. :)

[@OPproductions22]

I like to think Spock vouched for Kirk to help him get closure about his son. He knew how prejudiced Kirk had become towards Klingons following his death, but also knew he would be the most capable and humane officer of star fleet to bring peace. I loved this movie, perfect ending to the tos crew.

[@Shiirow]

"I now turn over this meeting to out Chief Commanding Officer of Failed Empires" Spock : "I will now talk about the failed Klingon Empire, please make time for my future speech on the failed Romulan Star Empire, their world still has a few hundred years before it blows up."

[@Mandolatron]

Sisko's Dad has a secret life

[@girl1213]

More like Sisko's ancestor

[@loszhor]

2:23 I'm glad Mr. Sisko mellowed out as he got older.

[@michaelcook7107]

"I don't know whether to congratulate you or not." "I wouldn't"

[@andrewwblanchard6037]

I saw this in the movie theater

[@RadicalRichard19]

I always love Kirks response "ME?" when finding out hes the one that is going to see the Klingons. He's like are you out of your god damn mind?

[@KMDragonS]

Practically being voluntold.

[@BryanDelMonte]

Is the meeting classified? Because I really want to talk about it. Also - I just want to say... classified of course... that Connor Roy was interested in the Klingons at a very early age. :P

[@Idazmi7]

(throws you out an airlock)

[@LTDANMAN44]

this is my favorite star trek movie

[@christinebutler7630]

Man, I can hear the rasp in Nimoy's voice. The COPD was already making itself felt.

[@hpa2005]

The lady who says the line about mothballing Starfleet was Walter Koenig's wife.

[@gabegu5102]

I’m pretty sure that this was analog for the USSR and the praxis explosion was and analog for Chernobyl

[@magnubeido8832]

That was the intent of Leonard Nimoy and Nicolas Meyer, the executive producer and director of the film 👍

[@austinperry1671]

Glad they didn’t mothball the fleet. The dominion would have been even harder to fight

[@joeswanson733]

actually starfleet after the khitomer peace was essentially neutered. with new ships constructions stalled or cut. defense budgets slashed. it might as well be mothballed. look how weak starfleet got by the TNG time.

[@oldtwinsna8347]

the fleet definitely lagged development. focus was put on building luxury liners. there was some progress, but not nearly close enough to what it had been in the past. the cardassian border wars was an effort to appease them as well.

[@Lurker1222]

I miss real Star Trek

[@itwillbeokay5475]

Damn that moment was so well earned.

[@stevenewman1393]

🖖😎👍Very cool and another very great scene from the Startrek movies indeed!.

[@mitche5007]

I love seeing the Golden Gate Bridge in the 23rd century😊. Of course, this is after magneto had his way with it.😊

[@danieljones317]

Captain Kirk, it its your animosity and hatred for the Klingons that make you the perfect candidate for the task at hand. If not for those qualities alone, I would have chosen another. You, above all others, ate the choice, because you will adhere to all protocols, and not be swayed by any outside force, no matter how powerful or connected. That's is why you are the perfect choice. You will succeed where others would fail.

[@Myuutsuu85]

This sure would have made him think.

[@joeswanson733]

actually i never understood why the CNC would send only the enterprise to escort gorkons ship. if it weer me I would at least send a taskforce to escort the klingon ship so that nothing goes wrong. obviously with enterprise in charge of the task force.

[@samtheeaglescout1490]

@@joeswanson733Not really how a diplomatic meeting works. The idea is to have representatives from different parties, not a fleet ready for battle.

[@superimposedtab]

After his arrest, Admiral Cartwright served his time, changed his name to Sisko and discovered a love for cooking

[@user-gx8ng6bj5q]

LoL. Perhaps a relative on the mother's side of the family.

[@jcs1025]

I know it’s not a direct line, and there’s a lot of time between this event and the era of The Next Generation, but you have to wonder if peace, or at least an armistice, between the Federation and The Empire had something to do with how ‘soft’ Starfleet became by the 24th century. It was the Borg and Dominion, among others, that pushed them closer to once again being a quasi-militaristic organization. Thoughts?

[@jonathantitmuss2235]

I think this is spot on, and a really interesting take.

[@Nine-Signs]

I've always found this idea kind of odd, though I understand the logic behind it given how feeble the ship and its security appears on screen at times. The reason I find it odd is if we go look at how well armed TNG era ships are on their designs, even before the borg and dominion they were not to be taken on lightly. Galaxy glass yes was a ship of exploration, but it was also the most well armed vessel cannon starfleet had ever built and could hold its own against a D'deridex class which certainly wasn't built for exploration. These are the battleships of their day. They are there to project power and wave the flag and they do that job well. Also remember when a third of the klingon fleet took on deep space 9? There were only 6 galaxy class star ships on the way to help and presumably a dozen support ships but that was enough to make the klingons blink. As for the changes in design, it was evident to star fleet that while it was a match for the powers of the alpha quadrant new threats emerged that required new thinking without giving up the ideals of the federation nor militarising starfleet which was for 45 years on screen, a self defence force of the federation, not a military force. "A self-defense force (SDF) is, in its stricter terms, a defense force composed by the local inhabitants of a territory who join together in order to protect themselves, their territory, their property, and/or their laws." Gene was expressly against an idea of a militarised starfleet, he did not like the subtle naval style changes Meyer brought in from ST2 but to my mind making starfleet a little more regular gave it grounding and believability without breaking what it was. Starfleet's newer ships were born of necessity in the moment, sovereign, akira, intrepid to a certain extent, defiant, tougher, sleeker so harder to hit, vastly more maneuverable, even better weapons, but they all were still primarily tasked with civilian roles from exploration to border security and dispute resolution. Even the defiant which is effectively a dreadnaught as someone thought galaxy class firepower on something the size of a bus would be a good idea, is classified by starfleet as an escort vessel. So no to my mind they did not become more militaristic nor any less optimistic, they just became less naive and more aware of what is required to defend themselves. But hey, all this doesn't matter any more as the federation, star fleet, all its lore and principles, have all been flushed down the toilet post 2009 by handfuls of capitalist corporate executives of which Gene also despised.

[@joeswanson733]

peace always makes a country soft and negligent. for example with the fall of he USSR this made the us very lazy and weak since. well we know what happened since.

[@Nine-Signs]

@@joeswanson733 The european powers were at war with each other over two thousand years, peace over the last 70 has made them all more prosperous and resilient than war ever did. As for the USA, it has been in decline since 1950, but only post 1980 have you started to feel it, and that has everything to do with capitalism, not with peace nor war which are merely tools within it and often act as markers along the path of decline, see the UK and suez for example. That was their afghanistan. in 1950 US economy = 50% of global GDP, today, 24% and falling. Why? Because capitalism incentivises capitalists to maximise profits, which under the age of the jet engine and shipping container they did by either bringing cheaper workers to the jobs or by sending the jobs abroad to cheaper workers or by automating away good paying jobs, either way capitalism did what it was meant to do, concentrate wealth and power at the top while selling you all the lie of the american dream for hard work below. Capitalism is the reason China is rising and the west is stagnant to falling. The very system America defends with propaganda and bombs if need be is the very system asset stripping the under 40's of most western nations and creating political upheavals within them due to that asset stripping. In most western nations post 1980 capitalism has rendered millennials poorer than their parents despite millenials working longer hours and having more people per household in work. The decline of the USA as with the UK and other such nations, has fuck all to do with too much peace, especially given we have been bombing the shit out of piss poor usually brown people for my entire adult 30 years, and has everything to do with the rewards and incentives of capitalism, the very reason America has an ever growing rust belt.

[@joeswanson733]

@@Nine-Signs if we're going to be talking about economics hat was a whole different topic entirely which i thought wouldn't apply to trek as well let's face it with magic tech with what they have it would force us to re-write our entire theories on economics. i was just commenting on how peace makes countries docile and lax. i tried to avoid mentioning middle eastern conflicts because it is not similar to 1v1 peer vs peer rival in conflict. i'm sorry the middle east has been the punching bag of the west for decades but if you got the power to retaliate than by all means do so.

[@zachhoward9099]

I really like how they combined commendation ribbons with the classic films maroon uniform

[@brandonhollon3010]

This scene makes so much sense.

[@ReaverLordTonus]

@2:14 I feel there's a misstep here. When this movie was made, TNG was on the air and in its fourth season. The show had well established by then that the Federation was still in an uneasy peace with the Romulans even after the events of TOS. So the Romulans would still be a thing here and thus Starfleet's militaristic elements would still serve a purpose. Not sure why everyone thinks the Klingons were the Federation's only concern.

[@Raja1938]

Yes, that's one of the few flaws in the scene. Would've been better if the line was mothballing part of the fleet. Aside from the Romulans, there were still the Gorn, the Tholians, the Orions, etc. to worry about in this era.

[@James-hs3tu]

2:35 Like that line. " Foot Hold on our Territory "

[@RJ_MacReady]

He was right in a way. The Borg the Dominion.

[@James-hs3tu]

Imo. What I would have . Just a (. Movie ) would have annihilated them Example:: The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor And the U.S. Dropped the BOMB. (. TWICE💣💣

[@Three-Headed-Monkey]

It's scenes like this that make this my favourite Star Trek movie.

[@cane6074]

My favorite TOS Era movie, it was basically a Tom Clancy Style Techno thriller on the final frontier, as well as major departure from the then exploration focused ST franchise, in many way it was precursor to DS9.

[@CloudStrife-zk6uv]

Meanwhile....in the Kelvin universe with JJ.....Bing bang boom!!!! Lens flare! Fight! Run! Action! Fast cuts! Blam! Wham! Lens flare!

[@Kanthannic]

Meanwhile in STD and Pukecard with Kurtzmen: I love you. You are my family. Starfleet is my family. Family 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭

[@johnwelsh7524]

Cartwright... sisquos dad. Explains everything.

[@johntabler349]

Such good writing, Kirk and Cartwright are piers probably similar experience, both probably involved in the five year missions and had seen loss. Kirk would have been of equal or similar rank but for his demotion in ST4 Their prejudice was not unjustified, they had seen Klingon aggression, Klingon atrocities and Klingon subterfuge for decades it was both right and necessary to be suspicious of Gorkon and his intentions. Kirk had the added weight of the very personal loss inflicted on him when his son was unlawfully executed by rogue Klingons yet he chooses to behave honorably while Cartwright betrays his honor for what he perceived as the greater good

[@damocles8417]

Spock also volunteered to work the galley, stock the armory, and run the women’s yoga class. That dude wore many hats.

[@p9a9r21]

I'm viewing this clip in December of 2023. Just about all of the crew of Star Trek OTS have gone on to greater adventures. Bless them all. FYI The Undiscovered Country has autographs in the end credit.. Live long and prosper.

[@CCJJ160Channels]

3::36 - “I have personally vouched for you captain.” ‘What did l tell you about volunteering me for sh-t?’

[@TheBigExclusive]

While the movie promotes a message of peace, unfortunately Admiral Cartwright ended up being correct in the long term. Decades of Peace caused the Federation to become completely unprepared for other threats. Their ships, and technology lagged far behind other more aggressive species (Borg, Dominion, etc) looking to expand their territory. The Federation was almost destroyed several times, and only survived by the skin of their teeth with the sacrifices of many heroes.

[@kaulz]

There is no reason to think they lagged behind in development, let alone because of a peace treaty. It's as easily argued that instead of focusing on military uses they were able to advance their tech and ships far further through devotion to discovery. The most militarized species in ST fared the worst against the dominion while the federation through many threats proved to be resilient.

[@tc556guy]

I agree with Big Exclusive.

[@chrish5425]

Please. The Borg and Dominion are obvious outliers. The Federation's fleet and technology at least matched the Romulans and the Cardassians, and there was generally "peace" compared to the Dominion War and Wolf 359. Even if there had been a war between the Romulans, Klingons, and Cardassians, and the Federation, that wouldn't necessarily mean that any of them would have been prepared for the Borg or Dominion. You're just guessing. You cannot blame the Federation for "failing to know the unknown".

[@Iomeces]

On the other hand, the Federation's alliance with the Klingons is what allowed them to defeat those threats.

[@bluerisk]

Star Fleet was never retired as proposed in this discussion. It's more a break down/ copy pitch of the cold war era of the 90s in the 20th century, then a realistic depiction of the Alpha Quadrant - by ignoring the constant threat through the Romulan Empire for instance. And that the Klingon Empire won't fade away within 50 years for it contains hundreds of other major worlds. In the later movies and shows their home world was depicted as not destroyed. Maybe it lost a lot of its population and economical meaning within the empire, but it is still the political center of it. New York, for instance, is economically far more important than Washington. Berlin's role as center of the republic was also quite diminished to this very day through the cold war. Frankfurt is the only Alpha world city of Germany, and overall Germany is a federal country with many centers...just like the US and unlike Britain or France where London and Paris are absolutely dominating their countries. And the Klingon Empire and the Romulan empires are vast entities. It was a major economic set back and thus the de-escalation, but it was by no means the end of the Empire itself.

[@stuartbaxter-potter8363]

I like how everyone actually listens to the briefing and comments. These days, there would be obligatory muttering around the room as people got their reaction shots in.

[@aesopsoze]

That movie arrives today!

[@andreslinares6429]

My favourite Trek movie.

[@EvanCops]

2:33 yup my reaction too

[@michaellucas7763]

A Star Trek masterpiece

[@NewYork975]

This happened two months ago and Spock couldn’t give Kirk a heads up.

[@joeswanson733]

some friend spock is.

[@jmwoods190]

​@@joeswanson733 Especially when he knows full well that Kirk has deep grievances with Klingons. I guess Spock had suppressed his human side so much that he didn't expect Kirk to protest so strongly. And if you count the previous film, Kirk was in fact reasonably cordial with the Klingon officers.

[@joeswanson733]

@@jmwoods190 well they may have saved kirks hide from that evil entity thing at shakaree but kirk still don't like them and to have dinner with them and to make peace with them.. with the folks that killed kirks son. im pretty sure if i were in kirks place i would be like spock wtf bro. im like 3 months away from retirement. you gonna pull this sh-t on me.

[@maundamartin59]

December 1991 I was THERE!!!! KAPLAH!!!!!!!

[@partyguy101ify]

I would have told Spock to do something with a colorful metaphor.

[@LH74]

I love this movie.

[@dy031101]

To be fair to Kirk, I would have been pretty mad if people railroaded me into a mission and then questioned my dedication to the cause that I work for, which is where the moral authority to railroad me into the mission is derived from in the first place. Kirk has proven himself as a Starfleet captain- if the Starfleet is going to railroad him into a mission that is personally objectionable to him but not objectively immoral, the least they can do is to have the courtesy to trust him. I think Kirk interpreted Spock's statement of having vouched for him as an "exaggeration" intended to calm him down and became even more frustrated because it came from Spock of all people.

[@JaguarCats]

I always loved how in TNG, the events that occured afterwards are what convinced Spock to attempt reunification on his own.

[@Ph33nxOne]

One thing I didn't notice until watching this now, is all the top brass in this meeting looks to be human, besides Spock. I really think that speaks to Starfleet still being a human organization at this point and its motivation. This movie is such an interesting starting point of the Lost Era in Star Trek.

[@blockmasterscott]

I get what you’re saying, but I think budget has a lot to do with it. For example, I read somewhere that they had to wear the used uniforms from the previous films. Make up for aliens=money

[@jeffkardosjr.3825]

Maybe the non human Federation officers are generally deployed to or close to their home space.