Archery FAQ: Stringtwist at Fulldraw and Stringangle of 60 degree

[@junglejim7664]

A korean archer explained that the twist served 3 functions. 1, it gets the index finger out of the bowstring''s path (ie a crisper release), 2. it helps to maintain pressure on the arrow against the shelf (which I believe makes the arrow spring away from the bow on release and helps to achieve the clean arrow flight you note) and 3. It allows a full length draw to be achieved.

[@andyhillsden]

Coming from an engineering background, the 60 degree angle makes total sense to me so I don't allow 'accidents' in my designs. :)

[@kmarchery]

I have a suggestion. Regarding the 60 degree of angle . Ask . Dustin from smarter everyday . To collaborate ,he is an engineer who has lots of ballistic experience . Add in a bowyer to mix . A little applied science on film Would be great . Cheers

[@ArminHirmer]

Interesting idea

[@die_dunkelheit]

@Armin Hirmer String angle in archery is based the same principles as vector forces or "rope vectors" and efficiency of any archery platform is defined by that angle. Efficiency considering cast speed versus draw weight, two bows of the same draw weight and length but one having a lower string angle, the lower string angle will cast faster (assuming idealized mass-less limbs or limbs of equal mass). This is where recurves and static recurves shine, the tip curves away from the string lowering the string angle. Static recurves with a string bridge, so called "contact siyahs", benefit from compounded string angle as the string angle is suddenly reduced when the string lifts off the string bridges. "Stacking" is also a function of string angle because as the draw extends and the string angle goes up you loose more mechanical advantage. From an engineering perspective, the same math which describes vector forces applies, though the classic equations have to be rearranged because the forces are acting in a different direction and are doubled, one for each limb.

[@h0tkoko]

Hi @Armin, thank you for guiding me to this video. Now, about string twist, after watching this video and doing it myself, I found some things: 1) My arrows swerve to the left and the arrows are slanting to the left on my target foam, I don't know if I over did the kathra or over did the string twist; 2) Anchor point must be beyond the lips (better at jaw or near ear) or else my hand will punch myself in the face when string is released; and 3) I don't have skin scratch on my thumb only anymore, I have skin scratches on my fore finger as well (lol) Overall, string twist is nice and crisp feel, arrows with loose nocs do not fall off the string as easily, need to find sweet spot angle to twist and balance with kathra.

[@mrtaffspoon]

There's always something new to learn in archery. That's one of the things I love about it. I've always been interested in physics. I need to try the string twisiting, as I often get a noisy release release, when shooting thumb release. Keep up the good work Armin & keep the videos coming.

[@ArminHirmer]

Thank you

[@gizmonomono]

From my research, the twist is a substitution for khatra. When you shoot weaker spined arrows, the twist causes the arrow to bend slightly, providing a clean release, as the arrow bends around the bow this way.. It's sort of a draw hand khatra, in a way 😁

[@softsmoken]

The things like arrows always going in crooked and finding a method or skill to fix it... is such an amazing relief. It's like when your learning to ride a bike and it finally clicks and you just feel completely different... black shadow coming in any day, dreading working out all the little weird things just to be able to start enjoying the bow.

[@markroberts6971]

Most of the issue with arrows not entering the target straight, and grouping left/right/up/down of intended target, is related to arrows that are not tuned to the bow. Spine too stiff = group right. Spine too soft = group left. Tip too heavy = nock high. Tip too light = nock low. String twist and arrow flight is also related to the natural rotation of the arrow, based on if the fletching is “right wing feathers” or “left wing feathers”, and if helical twist is added into the arrow build. Left wing and right wing rotate the arrow in opposite rotations. For my arrow builds on my Asiatic bow, a left wing feather + a left helical twist produces much better arrow flight, when paired to a well tuned arrow.

[@phediashadjicharalambous9408]

I have tried it today. Slavic draw + string twist + a bit of side Khatra Feels Amazing !!!

[@alexandergebharter1810]

Thanks, string twist really makes a huge difference. I’m shooting a 60 and an 80 pounds Ottoman bow. Though you can barely “see” the string twist on the 80 pounder, the applied pressure still makes a difference The arrows pass the bow without hitting it and fly much straighter.

[@tammynfletcher]

Balancing the torque is a good way to describe this method of release. When I started to use khatra on this archery journey I found myself doing this naturally. It took me a while to get the timing right but once I did I noticed what you noticed. It didn't take as much of a forward rotation of my bow hand to straighten my arrow flight. I work in the construction field and the 60° has always made sense build a fulcrum and lever and pick up a cement block you'll notice how much more force it takes after 60° to get the same amount of lift in height. Thank you Armin for your knowledge it has always enlightened me! Have a happy holiday season!

[@Scientist9221]

This is a major evolution of the technique... I used to pre-torque the bow, it tires the hand easily...You are the man!!! Thank you very much!!!

[@Spaceman_Spiff_74]

One thing I find totally fascinating is that left side off the hand my arrows never slap. Right side thumb release and if I don’t perform Kahtra then they’ll always slap… so weird, but cool. That torque in both hands is what my body just did when the thumb release clicked. That style of shooting is so much more intuitive for me than Mediterranean even though I’ve been shooting western recurves and lb for my entire life, in only a couple weeks my skill and confidence at thumb release has almost come close to that of my three finger. I’ll still hunt with three finger for now… I’ll need a better bow to hunt thumb release, maybe next year :) thanks armin for inspiring

[@chmux]

Maybe try to put less pressure on the arrow with your bow-hand index finger. Worked for me.

[@haukefrahmann7849]

two days ago I was shooting and got "totally annoyed" about the arrow slap on the bow and could not find a consitent solution .. (I noticed I bend the arrows towards the bow) ... and just now I stumbled over what might be just right the answer ... totally amazes me how many answers I get from your videos :D :D

[@travispearce3590]

60 degrees is key. Both bow tips and the nock point all end up at 60 degrees, providing maximum efficiency of stored energy in the limb tips WITH RESPECT TO EACH OTHER! Any more tension and the bulk of the extra energy will be stored in the string as it fights to stretch itself. Cheers and thanks for all the great content, keep em coming!

[@ArminHirmer]

Thank you

[@pmccord9]

Using the string twist immediately improved my groupings. Thanks! I think it puts my draw elbow in a better position, isolating scapular strength, and allows my head to remain more upright (I tend to lean in to my anchor point and lose binocular focus: corrected with string twist). Just btw, the other tip that really helped me was pointing the bow thumb at the bullseye (sounds Chinesey); this helps with a softer grip on the bow, & for some reason it helps unify the body; in addition, a little looser grip makes khatra more natural---and I'm as yet undecided about khatra combined with string twist. Thanks a lot.

[@ArminHirmer]

Thank you for watching

[@ehisey]

Point thumb at target is something I do also. Helps maintain proper bow arm for me.

[@DANTHETUBEMAN]

When you apply torque the torsion imparted to the arrow imply's pre-flight rotation stabilization that changes the vector!

[@gushlergushler]

I am obviously no expert but it kind of makes sense to me as to why the arrow would fly straighter to an extend. As far as I am aware the straightness in flight comes from the rotation induced by the fletching on the arrow. When you shoot the air starts spinning the arrow stabilising it midflight. It does need some distance for the air and the fletchings to give the arrow the proper spin. If you twist the string it will straighten once released already giving the arrow the spin it needs for straight flight so it stabilises more quickly and thusly flies straight more quickly then without the twist.

[@garrettevans8863]

Excellent points. I thought War of The Arrows was great, and even though I knew while watching it that twisting the string doesn’t curve an arrow’s flight, I did wonder what kind of effect it would have. Now I know, thanks Armin. I don’t shoot many “lighter” bows, most of mine pull between 70# and 90# at 31-33”. Thank you for showing us this.

[@gizmonomono]

Ballance, Key word here. Both hands are important. It's such an important thing. People tend to focus on one hand. Either the release, or the grip. It's such a tricky thing to get the shot just right. This is precisely the reasone why I find thumb release so intriguing. It's not simple. It's complex. So much fun to figure it out 😁

[@VeteranofthePsychicWars]

Twisting the string slightly to improve the arrow flight makes sense. Think about rockets and missiles they all rotate slightly as they fly and stabilize the flight. An arrow is a teeny, tiny missile.

[@markgibbens437]

As we say in the uk every days a school day. Thank you for the great lesson

[@ahmetcanikli5144]

Im Grunde sind es 2 spiralbewegungen! Eine vertikal eine horizontal... Horizontal : Wenn man den string twist macht übt man auf die bogenhand zugleich druck nach links ,diesem arbeitet die bogenhand bei der streckung mit einem druck nach rechts entgegen! Vertikal: Man steht im Boxerstand mit den schultern zum ziel hin und zieht den bogen aus den beinen und dreht sich nachboben , beide spiralbewegungen gehen in einander...nach dem lösen geht die bewegung trotzdem weiter bis alle gelenke einrasten... zielen während der bewegung ... by the way, du hast es schon vorgemacht...so , genug taiji..

[@blairhayden8955]

Love this video sir. I own a copy of WAR OF ARROWS, but haven't watched it yet. But the other day on an archery group they were asking about the twisting, they were using a frame from the movie. I didn't know what they were talking about until now. So thanks for the timely video.

[@rodolfosjeronimo9274]

War of The Arrow is awesome, one of the reasons I still want a korean bow, maybe the Segye by ali. Great video! Have an excellent holiday!

[@ArminHirmer]

Same to you and thanks for watching

[@TNTnor]

+Rudolfo S Jeronimo.... The Segye korean bow from AliBow is very good, and I highly recommend it. I've got 2; one with 50 ib draw and one with 40 ib draw (the reason for this is that from 45 ib and up the drawlength is just 30", from 40 ib and lower the bow can be drawn easy to 32". Know this when you choose)

[@rodolfosjeronimo9274]

@@TNTnor maybe the #45@30' could do 31~31.5 inches?

[@TNTnor]

@@rodolfosjeronimo9274 I don't know why there's a gap of 2" draw at around 45 ib, but I felt the difference with my 2 bows. The 50 ib-er was more "stiff" at the end of the draw, and it's almost as it says to you "if you pull me more, I'll snap". I don't thick there's a middle-thing around 45 ib. If you want the heaviest bow to 32", go for the 40 ib-er. It will still kick your arrows (light ones) at least 250 meters, and with a good kick. As Armin's test of the Segye bow tells you, they have a fenomenal drawcurve.

[@rodolfosjeronimo9274]

​@@TNTnor I see, thank you for the helpful info!

[@jamesbariso9507]

It's all about an architect archer sharing bow efficiency with a 'twist' I both agree with you as an architect and as an archer. Hope all your followers also enjoying the CHRISTmas and your sharing. Maraming Salamat Armin!

[@ArminHirmer]

thank you for watching

[@malachib5659]

YES! Thank you so much. I have always smacked the arrow loudly against the bow when I use thumb release, but using Khatra and the string twist, it’s finally quiet!

[@ArminHirmer]

Thanks for watching

[@pwaterdu]

I did shoot my noisy 50# keshig and found much less slap sound on bow with new string twist release..wow..way impressed with this techneque

[@ArminHirmer]

thanks for watching

[@comfusedWorldpassanger3399]

I will for sure try out the string-twist, then I do struggle a bit with my release. You have a very logical explanation about the 60degree angle. Thank you for your videoes, I always learn something new..

[@clebertgarcia9201]

Thanks. i just tried this today, and it is great. Used my #45 Alibow Tar Tar and Turkish and grouped tighter than ever.

[@josemanuelclaure]

Mind blowing! The twist changes completelly the release!

[@ArminHirmer]

Hehe

[@gordonallison1055]

I think the 60° phenomenon is to do with the elasticity of the limbs acting as a spring. The ability of the archer to bend the limbs freely by drawing the bow diminishes at angles greater than 60° and this is where the bow starts to stack. The converse is that the spring of the limbs acting to recover on release is decreased as the limbs move to the 60° angle and then increases just as you suggest Armin. Perhaps its to do with the proportion of the limb that acts as a spring. If an imaginary bow had totally elastic limbs and could be drawn until it folded around the grip then only the part of the limb at each fold would be operational. As the bow unfolded slowly the whole limb would become working at 60°. Perhaps someone with understanding of this vectorial problem can add more. the ability to push a car at an angle of 60° is surely to do with requiring friction against the ground to equal the pushing force exerted forward against the car. 60° is the balance point.

[@L.sPonsel]

I Almost cry also I just invent it a few time ago That is right! That is Straight

[@pwaterdu]

Master Armin you out do yourself again sir..I tried the the string twist using my 40# horse bow with thumb release..Wow staight arrows and center shots..when I used khatra the arrow to the left and right leaning somewhat..I shoot right handed..but still amazing results! Clearly I need to work on my full body release and timing with this new style..but wow..center after center to start? Was like something was missing before..curios to see if this technique will remove the "thawack" from my 50# keshig that I find annoying a bit..more on that later..also as a Arboist moving heavy wood objects in the air and on the ground I completely agree with your 60 degree principle given the angles of forces..So many thanks again for your wonderful work you do..Happy Holy days to you sir..cheers

[@ArminHirmer]

Thank you

[@rondumontier1187]

Well, once again something new to me. I do see by watching your release how the torque seems to load up then release. Amazing Thankx again. Off to my new lessons for the week.

[@sigmanarchery54]

Thank you that’s some great information. I think that I already shot that way thanks again sir.

[@ArminHirmer]

thank you for watching

[@michaelshapiro1543]

Thank you for a very interesting discussion / demonstration of two ideas in shooting!

[@ArminHirmer]

Thank you for watching

[@ColetteNoir]

When I studied Kyudo years ago, we did something very similar...we got superb arrow flight

[@ArminHirmer]

Thanks

[@Burboss]

This twist affects Slavic release as well (in a good way). My hunch is has more to do with direction of back tension and angle at which fingers slide off the string.

[@ArminHirmer]

Yepp

[@adriaanvandenberg5013]

0:00 - 5:30 video: I'm doing thumb draw and I always get the 'Fwip/Tak' sound, How do you make the thumbdraw shoot smooth without khatra? Answer: Angling the string a little bit 6:35 - 7:09 End of question 1: String twist at Full draw 7:10 - 8:55 Question 2: String angle of 60 degree. Max performance at certain angle, bow-builder and architecture In architecture 60 degrees is used for support structures. 9:09 - 11:20 Applying force to objects at various angles, 60 degree structures and pushing something at 60 degrees Thanks for the helpful information Armin; after 60 degrees. Does a bow start stacking with a string angle > 60 degrees?

[@ArminHirmer]

some call it stacking. I would say the bow is beyond optimal performance. stacking for me is, when the bow gets hard to draw

[@Killianwsh]

Armin, Great information! I was wondering about your mentioning the 60 deg. string angle, but hadn't gotten round to asking about it! Thanks for another great video! K.

[@sjohnson4882]

It seems to me that if you exceed the 60 degrees with a longer draw you will arrive at 60 degrees after the release. In addition, the longer draw will put the arrow in motion prior to reaching 60 degrees and when 60 degrees is reached it will act in sort of a catapult or enhanced effect. So, it is better to have a longer draw than a shorter one. Just thoughts with no data to back them up. Perhaps somewhat interesting.

[@ArminHirmer]

My qing dragon 2 from Mariner has a string angle of 60' at full draw of 36"

[@apolyedapolyed7524]

Maybe if the draw is too long ( making stringangle over 60°), then fingers of the draw hand will be pinched by the string&shaft because the remaining angle becomes narrower, that's why as a rule of thumb, 60° serves a general reference?

[@lebondave4377]

Science and archery for Christmas, excellent gift : thank you Armin!

[@ArminHirmer]

thank you for watching

[@cha05]

from engineering point of view, 60 degrees is the angle of an equilateral triangle. so for the bow, if you draw to the 60 degree point then the string makes an equilateral triangle between the siyahs and your thumb. so you could say the bow and the two halves of the string are all bearing an equal amount of force (maybe, i'm not too sure about this)

[@vaportrail226]

Heading out to the range later today. I'll try out the string twist. Thanks for the video!

[@ArminHirmer]

have fun

[@faizalnizar8261]

Most awaited answer by you... Thank you very much armin!

[@ArminHirmer]

I thank you

[@Slingshotsbowsandknifes-tm4ev]

I always try to twist the string. I imagine that twist gives a bit of rotation to the arrow which make it more stable. Basically like a bullet.

[@AronMarinescu]

We need 3 points of contact to stabilize an object in space (in a plane) and the maximum angle obtained by uniting these points is 60 degrees - as are all the angles of the equilateral triangle. A simple explanation would be a seat with 3 legs: if the legs are positioned at the tips of an equilateral triangle the seat would be stable whilst if the legs were to be positioned at different angles the person sitting on it would most probably fall. Happy holidays to you all! 🎉

[@ArminHirmer]

thank you

[@lidijabacic8348]

making a nice group, so satisfying 😥

[@karlsjostedt8415]

Thumb draw and "slavic draw" seem to make me do string twist as part of the draw... I really have to try in order to not do string twist. And, if the arrow nocks are too loose for the string, the twisting with those two draws means I really hold on to the arrow as I draw, keeping it on the string.

[@Leverguns50]

It would be interesting to to see if twisting the string caused the arrow to spin like a bullet, there by stabilizing it before it leaves the bow.

[@maidenmalta666]

Thanks Armin, another great informative video. May the Gods bless you this Xmas and thank you for your guidance.

[@ArminHirmer]

thank you for watching Leith and merry Christmas to you and your family

[@maidenmalta666]

@@ArminHirmer I appreciate everything Sir. You are an inspiration, I am enjoying my journey of the bow :)

[@felixmundhenke8530]

That´s what I call a present! :)

[@Daylon91]

I'm glad u seen that movie its not too bad

[@lukasjakubcek1596]

was that bowyer working longbows? I think once I have red about this 60 degree angle, that in this angle are best balanced powers (of limbs) which are stressed in horizontal and vertical direction when string is pulled. for example if draw lenght is too long, limbs are more stressed in horizontal direction...with longbow it is easy to imagine it.

[@mepotiranul]

Thank you for a details technique of shooting, I will definitely try it and for the recommendation of the movie. ( to my shame I didn't see it)

[@Archerstidbits]

I remember that moment at the course in Heerlen 😅😅. Must say it really works, a bit painful on the yuwen bow though 😭

[@ArminHirmer]

Practice :)

[@ivanmoser3367]

Very interesting info. !! Thanks Merry Christmas.

[@jcapp1698]

As always great information

[@fire_lord862]

Good video as always, Sir.

[@ArminHirmer]

thank you for watching

[@ivsovolod]

Would it be save to assume that the slight rotation of the arrow shaft induced by the string twist stabilizes the flight and thus quenches the snake movement inevitably induced by a conventional release (if you do no katra) because of the change of the angle of the shaft to the bow from steep to broader (bending the shaft in the process)?

[@ArminHirmer]

yes I think so, will do more testing and maybe slowmo

[@gizmonomono]

Nice explanation, thank you. Marry Christmas

[@miguelveratraditionalarche9374]

Merry Christmas!!🌲 Brother Archer🎯 enjoy the holidays and keep shooting my Friend Cheers from the Caribbean Island Puerto Rico 🇵🇷🤓🏹👍🏻

[@gizmonomono]

@@miguelveratraditionalarche9374 Merry Christmas to you from Croatia.

[@msrvfx]

I like the concept of the 60 degree string angle, but wouldn’t the measurement be highly dependent on the style of bow (tip recurve shape, siyher shape, etc).? Wouldn’t a better observation be the curved shape of the main bending part of the limbs.

[@danielingram788]

I wonder if the twisting of the string transfers a rotational force into the arrow thus minimizing the archers paradox. If the force from string compresses the arrow shaft , maybe the twisting motion counteracts this force. I guarantee who would know this, Devon from SmarterEveryDay.

[@bobjackson3307]

That was Amazing to see & Hear the Arrows when Twisted. I would be a Great Test to see What else may be going on from: Twist to Target in Slow Motion. Thank You for Explaining the Concept & then Proving by Showing us, Great Video!! I wonder if there is a way to add (2) Tubes that could be fitted to the Pointer & Middle Fingers: between the two Outer most knuckles from the nail. Like having a Long ring rounded on both ends so there are no sharp edges to catch the String. Then use a, "Double Hook", on the thumb & ring to aid for Heavy Draw # Bows. This may help twist the string and Keep the String from digging into the skin? Like the Saying, "No Pain . . . . Because we are Lazy".

[@ArminHirmer]

Hahaha. Thanks for watching

[@robsarchery9679]

nice to know.

[@jamesmcconaghie3679]

The string twist is very interesting. You can't twist the string with your right hand without resisting it with your left hand. Does this set up for a khatra of some sort? I thank Shadiversity for leading me to your excellent channel.

[@LionAstrology]

Cool video thanks for sharing ...I wonder if helical fletchings or flu flu's might have a different effect with the string twist.

[@ArminHirmer]

String twist effects instantly, helical fletching during flight

[@zaghardtakal7338]

Thank you 👍🏼

[@msrvfx]

Does the twist affect your grouping location?

[@Rochesterphoenixmartialarts]

I’m wondering about the 60 degree angle and brace height. Obviously adjusting the brace height would change at what draw length the 60 is reached. Is that what you should adjust your brace height to? So that at your particular draw length you reach the 60? Ie So if a bows brace height is 7”-8”. And your draw length is 29”. Would you adjust the brace height within the range until you get the 60 at 29” draw?

[@ArminHirmer]

I will do another video about it :)

[@guitarfreak13095]

I just noticed I twist the string when I curl my fingers around it and begin my draw motion. After I noticed I tried correcting and my shots worsened. Went back to my old finger curling ways and my shots were good. I presume it’s the same principle since the string is still slightly twisted ?

[@reinori8322]

The string twist is very interesting. I know you are a bit of a scholar on old archery texts. Have you ever run across a reference to the string twist in any of the older documents? Upon a few minutes reflection, I am guessing that the string twist is initiating the spin of the arrow before the fetching has to do all the work? I wonder what a chronograph would show with the same arrow same bow with twist and no twist? It seems a straighter arrow will always be faster than a wobbly one. Thanks for the interesting content. Love your channel.

[@ArminHirmer]

Thank you. Never read anything about that. Buy even if not, same as with as example the Taichi classics, sometes.they don't explain all :) migth do a speed comparison

[@Taylor_in_Southern_Oregon]

I like this, but something is bugging me...60° from string to siyah, fine; but for the angle of siyah to limb, there must be some companion formula there? Because if you change the angle of the siyah to limb, then when drawing to 60° string to siyah, you're at a different draw length...I don't think this 60° angle rule can be of any use with also having a companion rule for the angle of siyah to limb.

[@cmcc1442]

Similar question here--is the angle from the string to the tangent of the siyah the correct angle to be talking about in the context of Armin's architecture simile? I understand the application as it relates to architecture and engineering generally, at least when it comes to straight lines, but using the tangent of the siyah where it meets the string-nock interface/corner as the reference point is a bit confusing. My intuition would be to reference the 60deg 'optimal angle' to either the [vertical] chord from string nock to string nock, or maybe to the line intersecting the string-nock vertex and the arrow-pass, or from string-nock vertex to the arrow nocking-point (i.e. the line described by the arrow). I'd love to hear more technical/engineering insight on this point (preferably at a more intuitive level than going straight to the vector equations). Maybe this is down to the interface with the lever of the siyah being the correct reference for this angle, since that might be the moment at which forces peak? Regardless, thanks to Armin--this really made me think about something I'd totally missed.

[@johnbarron4265]

@@cmcc1442 Mechanical engineer here, with a recently-acquired intense interest in archery. There are two primary design considerations that ultimately affect the ballistic performance of any bow: 1. How much elastic strain energy does the bow store at full draw? 2. How efficiently can that stored energy be transferred to the arrow? Let's tackle the first problem. For maximum energy storage at a given draw weight, the material of the limbs should be stressed as uniformly as possible. The majority of the stress (and therefore stored elastic strain energy) results from the bending moment acting in the limbs. The bending moment acting at any cross section of a limb equals the string force acting on the nock times the perpendicular distance from the nock to the cross section of interest. If the imaginary line segment from a given cross section to the string nock is perpendicular to the string, then the bending moment in that cross section will be maximized, and the strain energy contributed by that cross section will be maximized. It is then easy to see that the optimal geometry of the limbs at full draw is a perfectly straight line from the stiff riser to the string nock, AND, with the string at exactly a 90 degree angle to the entire limb. If the angle is instead 60 degrees, then only sin(60)=86.6% of the string force is actually used to bend the material in the limbs, and cos(60)=50% of the string force goes into axially loading the limbs (note these two percentages do not add to 100% because the force components are in a vector right triangle). However, the geometry of the limbs varies during the entire draw, so the straight alignment should be approached somewhere within the latter half of the draw, with the limb slightly curling away from the archer earlier in the draw and slightly curling toward the archer at the end of the draw, so that the limb is never very far from being perfectly straight at any draw length. Furthermore, the stiff riser should be as long as possible so that the angle of the string varies less, and it can be kept closer to perpendicular to the limb for a greater portion of the draw. Now for the second problem. For maximum efficiency of energy transfer to the arrow, the ratio of arrow speed to limb tip speed should be maximized. If we model the limbs as rigid rods attached to torsion springs at the points where they connect to the stiff riser (a close-enough approximation for our purposes), then it can be shown that for any given angle between the arrow and string, the arrow speed ratio will be maximum when the imaginary line from the stiff riser connection point of the limb to the string nock is at exactly a 90 degree angle to the string. And again, the exact angle will vary throughout the draw, so the geometry should be such that the 90 degree angle is approached somewhere within the latter half of the draw, with an acute angle (ie less than 90 degrees) earlier in the draw, and a slightly obtuse angle (ie greater than 90 degrees) at full draw. So if anything, it is the angle between the string and the straight line segment representing the entire flexing limb (from connection point on the riser to string nock), NOT the angle between the string and siyah tangent, that ultimately matters when evaluating the performance potential of a particular bow design. And funnily enough, if you look at the bow on the tillering tree, you can observe that this angle is actually above 80 degrees at full draw, approaching 90 degrees. The reason it isn't actually past 90 degrees at full draw, as in the optimal case, is because the bow body is too short to fully implement the 90 degree sweep, and stacking would become a problem. However, if the stiff middle-section of the bow were much longer, while keeping the limbs the same length, then the 90 degree sweep could be fully utilized to obtain maximum power out of the bow, without stacking.

[@22tanmay]

That's very interesting !!

[@nair.127]

Armin. Not a science communicator. But definitely trying. Lol. Lots of pushing.

[@ArminHirmer]

:D

[@mrblack9791]

does it add more tension on string

[@Ragnafyr]

Ich denke mal durch das Eindrehen der Sehne zieht man die Wurfarmenden weiter zusammen. Dadurch bekommt man etwas mehr Zuggewicht auf die Finger bzw. den Daumen und dadurch verändert sich der dynamische Spine des Pfeils und die Oszillation des Pfeils.

[@ArminHirmer]

nachdem Spine nicht so sehr ein Thema ist bei Daumentechnik und da Eindrehen nur ein paar mm ausmacht, bin ich mir nicht sicher. Kann sein

[@kamron_thurmond]

Does this work with 3 fingers? Or only for thumb release?

[@matthewmaxcy1574]

@Armin Hirmer.. what do you think of the carbon fiber bows?? I watched your video of the one you tested i really was impressed by them would you recommend them for say someone like myself who lives in a rough terrain/weather place here in Maine ? It would be used for hunting ...thank you..

[@tammynfletcher]

What part of Maine are you from I live downeast near Calais nobody around here shoot thumb release do you?

[@matthewmaxcy1574]

@@tammynfletcher i habe a few ways i practice when i shoot, i shoot Mediterranean, and i also shoot Apache style and i also practice by holding/using my thumb as a release, but ive yet to use a ring, intend on doing this when i build rams horn/birch tree bow ..

[@tammynfletcher]

@@matthewmaxcy1574 very interested in the birch ram horn bow well if your looking for someone to shoot with if you come this far north look me up

[@matthewmaxcy1574]

@@tammynfletcher definitely will do...

[@ravn7818]

Do you think the limbs on, for example turkish recurve bows with slim limbs, is gonna twist when you twist the string since they are quite flexible ? merry xmas from germany

[@ArminHirmer]

You have to be careful of course, some bows are more wiggly

[@magicdaveable]

Very interesting technique. I must go outside a shoot a couple dozen arrows right now.

[@ArminHirmer]

Enjoy

[@ThomUdin]

Twisting string before release 7th century ago arabian scholar ibnu qoyyim al jauziyah called it mafruk

[@theatrenisha9345]

Thank you , makes so much sense :-)

[@ArminHirmer]

thank you for watching

[@fadelraya2226]

Thank you sir, I'm gonna try this trick cause when I'm shooting the arrow never go straight hope this will fix it. Once again thank you Edit:sorry for the bad grammar I'm Indonesians, English is not my native language

[@aaronaaaronson8869]

Super. Hab die letzten Wochen überlegt ob ich dich mal fragen sollt, was es mit dem Sehnen verdrehen von War of the Arrow aufsich hat. Danke für das Weihnachtsgeschenk :)

[@ArminHirmer]

Frohe Weihnachten :)

[@h0tkoko]

Ok. So 60° is ultimate for a bow draw length, right?

[@clear_image_photos5477]

How do you draw like this using a heavier bow ? ( 40pound) I find it difficult to get a half draw even

[@ArminHirmer]

Practice

[@robertcrowther6134]

Will twisting the string work with Mediterranean draw

[@ArminHirmer]

No

[@sasasasa-lx6cl]

Keep in mind that twisting the bowstring shortens it and adds at least half an inch to draw. With long arrows you may ruin the bow.

[@ArminHirmer]

Yeah well, can happen

[@sasasasa-lx6cl]

@@ArminHirmer probably that broke mine bow from Nika Archery :)

[@taegergold9265]

What is this bow brand?

[@xeastvoodoox]

Nice! Mal eine Frage: Welchem Bogen würdest du den Vorzug geben,Kosten mal aussen vor.... Keshig Tang Chan An Bio Komposit Grozer Qinghai Ich hab bis jetzt: Snake bow(wegen Armin) Sipahi Fibreglass Alibow(ebenfalls wegen Armin) Nomad KTB (war günstig) Mongolian Bow Imre Nagy(erraten:wg Armin) Modified turkish Istvan Szimeister(ist klar oder? 😁) Welcher von den oben genannten Premium Bögen würde mein Arsenal abrunden? Danke im Voraus😊

[@ArminHirmer]

Hahaha lustig. Ich würde den Kheshig von Alibow nehmen und einen Asyrer von Grozer :)

[@xeastvoodoox]

Was meinst du mit "und"? Meine Freundin tötet mich wenn ich noch 2 Bögen kaufe 😁 Danke für deine schnelle Antwort und guten Rutsch 😊

[@josephvandurme6649]

I have seen resting the arrow on outside of bow only on internet

[@Taylor_in_Southern_Oregon]

With thumb release the arrow goes on one side, for Mediterranean draw, it goes on the other. Though some people do the opposite, and that's ok too

[@meikohan]

I shoot with my arrow on the outside, as I use a thumb draw. I started with my arrow resting on the inside, and using a Mediterranean draw, however when I started mounted archery/speed shooting, the outside rest and thumb draw is much more convenient. Plus I have been learning there is more flexibility in what you can add to your technique to improve your shot, such as the string twist shown here, canting the bow, etc.

[@thomasrobson6370]

I watched War of Arrows all the way through (even though I don't understand Korean). I didn't catch the "String twist", but I don't understand the benefit of shooting and arrow with a channel.

[@ArminHirmer]

you can use very short arrows and still draw fully. first the arrow will be very light weight and fast, second, the enemy will not be able to shoot them back

[@thomasrobson6370]

@@ArminHirmer that makes sense.

[@jamesbariso9507]

You can see the twist in his early practice at night with curving arrows, and 2x at the last duel. The string is already offset before the release 😊

[@alexandersalomatin8650]

How far shold I pull my 70" longbow to make it efficient? If I pull my 50" turk 30" am I doing somethin wrong?

[@jkre]

Don't expect same efficiency from a longbow than from short bow with long draw. Unlike many belive longbow isn't very good bow at all when it comes to efficiency. They are not long for power, they are long for not to break. Wood alone cannot handle much bending, so to get long draw the bow needs to be long too. Self bows lenght is about 2.2 to 2.5 times the draw lenght, depending of the desing and what wood is used. The shorter bow with same draw lenght is in most cases more efficent cus less dead mass in the limbs and the sting makes it more efficent, because longer bow has more inertia slowing down the arrow, that's why armin always measures the bow lenght and gets this f value. But where the longbow shines is the ease of manufacture. Longbow is quick and cheap to make, so its good option if u need to arm lot of soldiers with little time and money. Low cost mass production is offten better than quality and efficiency in times of war.

[@ArminHirmer]

depends on your bow. check when the string angle is about 60. usuallynit is around 30" with a good longbow. and still the will never be as efficient as short reflex bows

[@alexandersalomatin8650]

Thanks very much guys! Merry Christmas you all!

[@bruceparr1678]

It might be better to draw to 80 degrees. The limbs will pass through 60 degrees shortly after release.

[@miguelveratraditionalarche9374]

Mr.Armin!! Thanks for the info. Happy Holidays🌲🎯🎯🎯😁👍

[@ArminHirmer]

Same to you

[@holdenreddick1225]

Can anyone tell me what the first bow he is using is?

[@ArminHirmer]

Snake recurve by arc Rolan

[@ArminHirmer]

Snake recurve by arc Rolan

[@TheBUTOKUKAI]

It seems like arrow flies faster with the twist

[@amria5725]

Waw..