Are Caravels useful? (AoE2)

[@micahbush5397]

So basically, AOE2 gets rid of most or all of the real-world advantages of Caravels in exchange for a novelty mechanism with niche applications.

[@Mexican00b]

More like, for balancing reasons. Or China would have a lot of things they invented and they dont have ingame

[@iansun42]

@@Mexican00b And a LOT of civs wouldn't have trebuchets and knights

[@glenmcgillivray4707]

It's not like we are aware of any American Siege weapons, or have detailed records of what might have been used in south east Asia. so yeah, a lack of uniqueness makes sense. still want Chinese to get a gunpowder rocket unit for their University, pump out some Onager type piercing damage with a bonus against buildings, I know they don't need them, but they would be fun, particularly when the Koreans get the same unit

[@whiteeagleforce2.040]

lMao Zedong

[@Olifantenstaart]

@@Mexican00b Covid pandemic tech would be OP in the middle ages.

[@DispariScuro]

AoE2 does seem to do this weird thing where it partially overshadows unique units by buffing similar units for that civ to the point it's hard to tell if it's worth using the unique one. Like how Magyars get the Huszar, but their Hussars are cheaper so you might prefer those anyway. Unless the unique unit offers something truly spectacular it might just be worth sticking with basic units. Just an interesting thing to have to think about.

[@Boethion]

Agreed, they could instead just make Unique units replace their corresponding units as an upgrade, so in this case upgrading Light Cavalry to Magyar Huszars in the same way as Winged Hussars work for Poles and Lithuanians.

[@stommebanaan]

This might be an interesting topic for spirit of the law to cover actually. Which unique unit is least worth it to build over its vanilla counterpart or something

[@FDJUwe]

@@Boethion yeah they are sleeping on that one, and give the magyar a cooler castle unique unit. There are mentions of hungarian warriors carrying both a lance and a bow. We could have another melee/ranged hybrid unit, this time on foot, it would be so cool. They also mention really good front armor on the horses, which could be another idea for a unique unit (or maybe even the Huszar could have a special defense against projectiles when facing the enemy)

[@pwn3dname]

I don't know that the Huszar is a good example -other than being light cavalry, it fits a different role than the regular Hussars, being less conversion-resistant but far better against siege. Huszars feel more niche-y, but they certainly have a role in, for instance, defending the castle they're produced out of from precisely the type of siege that's used against said castles.

[@EvilDoresh]

@@Boethion This would be a good case for AoE3's "tiered" approach to unique units. The European civs for example have both unique units which replace a generic unit line entirely, and then they have "royal guard" units which _also_ replace a generic unit line, but are mostly identical except for slightly better stats.

[@CyberDrewan]

One very niche thing about caravels is that they can be decent naval support for land battles. If you’re fighting near the coast, your caravels essentially become weaker scorpions that are mostly safe from melee units. It’s really not much, but it is probably one of the better ships for shore bombardment (against units).

[@ariisee]

Yeah, I actually remember putting a group of 30 Caravels near a choke point (a bit of land, surrounded by water on either side), and they were very nicely killing enemy Cavaliers :D

[@Progeusz-]

Galleons are better at that job thanks to higher attack. Especially against armored enemies like cavalry.

[@ariisee]

@@Progeusz- Except both Galleon and Caravel deal 12 damage when fully upgraded XD The only reason Galleon has higher damage against ships is because it has higher BONUS damage against ships. Against land units, their damage is the exact same - 8+4. Meaning Caravel will be better.

[@beauthepotato3353]

Thank you! I jumped into the comments hoping to see more about this. I was hoping for that section... Maybe in the update video somewhere down the road :) 11. Love you Spirit, thanks for all the killer videos

[@Jan_Chess]

They are clearly useful, at least visually, they have the coolest death/destruction animation in aoe2

[@BelialTnTn]

I just noticed it for the first time following your comment but, don't they seem to bounce a few times before they sink?

[@MuhammedThasneem1996]

​Yeh i noticed that too but it's looks cool 😅 ​@@BelialTnTn

[@rovsea-3761]

@@BelialTnTn Makes sense. As the wood descends it's potential energy is converted into kinetic energy, so when it hits the water it expends that kinetic energy to displace it. However, the water is denser, and so after the energy of the wreckage is expended it's "bounced" back to the surface by the pressure of the water.

[@beauthepotato3353]

Thank you T90 for teaching me this is true, and you for reminding me! 11

[@SEGFC]

Why do all the other ships have destruction animations except the galley line it’s so weird

[@lapis112]

The original Come to Brazil machine

[@DCdabest]

I guess more like "Go to India" gone wrong 😅

[@88porpoise]

As far as I understand most of Cabral's fleet were carracks. While Caravels were used extensively in expiration, Cabral's primary mission was to trade in India so the larger Carracks were the bulk of the fleet.

[@Peagaporto]

@@88porpoise There were 3 caravels in the fleet if what they taught me in school when I was a kid is accurate

[@chrisbackhouse5730]

I've always voiced the opinion that the angle matters. Thank you foe highlighting this, Mr Lawful Spirit

[@JohnSmithEx]

Angle, speed, depth and stamina. All important for a successful Caravel deployment.

[@Kharneth_Korn]

The Caravels are such an odd design choice. They should be fast long range gunpowder snipers and not what ever the fuck this is.

[@holyhandgrenadeofantioch2234]

Exactly what i expected back in the day. Then it turned out to be a buggy scorpion -.-

[@Ayy_Doll_Fiddler]

Right? I actually wanted them to be the hand cannoneer of the sea.

[@MC-wh3xm]

@@Ayy_Doll_Fiddler that turned out to be spanish cannon galley

[@tylercote6597]

You'll have to resort to AoE3 for that!

[@caesarsailor4051]

Exactly they should be the Conq or the janissaries of the water

[@PirateofAE2]

my thought for a follow up would be as a flanking force, lines of gallies, but carvels as a flanker, you would get the pass though more.

[@leisen3272]

Now I want to know how useful are teutonic knights if they walk on water.

[@T-West]

If only Barbarossa could have walked on water...

[@ManhNguyenTM1977]

​@@T-West👋👋😔

[@zhouwu9997]

😭​@@T-West

[@DGrin1]

You forgot to discuss their most exceptional area of performance - mulching hapless land units that venture into range of the shore

[@yigityargic2814]

I think they could distinguish Caravels more from the galley line: allow attack-ground and increase range by +1

[@yigityargic2814]

To offset this buff: make the increased range to be their max damage range rather than the max targetable range, and make the passthrough damage more consistent with the targeted distance

[@thomasfplm]

Increase their speed

[@theOGSG]

@2:40 I knew it. Jesus was a Teutonic Knight

[@MerMes16]

I find funny that the Galleon's death animation is the classic one while the caravel has a more detailed one

[@gatau8391]

We got the Portuguese overview (updated) before Teutons overview (updated)

[@atoucangirl]

honestly this really showcases how badly water needs a rework. there's 3 generic ship types and 4 unique units, and almost every matchup is a decisive win or loss based on invisible bonus damage and armor. also the Caravel feels particularly pointless since it competes for the exact same role as the Galleon, unlike the Longboat or Turtle ship which have unique roles (raiding/tanking)

[@paulodelima5705]

Caravels is a suport for galleons, not a replacement.

[@The-jy3yq]

​@@paulodelima5705no? Caravels cost more, have the same range (and arguably lower damage), less HP _and_ armor You would be much better with Fire Ships, since they are cheaper as well as being generally more useful in combination with Galleons

[@88porpoise]

I think water in general is fine. It is a fairly heavy rock paper scissors, but you are never fleshing it out as much as land so that way makes sense. Now, unique units may be less clear. But the same exists for a large portion of unique units on land. It seems to me that the Caravel has a niche on more choked water maps but is generally a not as good Caravel. Maybe the Caravel could do with a bit of balancing, but it is also on a civ with an amazing unique unit and some great bonuses so I don't see an issue with it being pretty niche.

[@atoucangirl]

@@88porpoise both the Rome at War mod and the Chronicles DLC have proven that you can make water significantly more interesting

[@rovsea-3761]

The Caravel bolt in the demonstration at 3:00 appears to be consistently traveling 50% further than the unit targeted.

[@sanmitranaik]

Hey guys, Caravel of the law here!

[@Iggnir1]

X Doubt

[@MP-oh9lt]

Hey

[@jesusrubiomaldonado27]

Pirates of the Caravel

[@DibbzTheLoner]

Got it, so unless you're fighting Vikings it's way safer to just spam Galleys and pretend the Caravel doesn't exist.

[@maxvandijk2668]

The caravel in my opinion is a good flanker if your in combat and tricks your opponent in engagement you can swoop around and do a lot of damage in to the line of enemy ships

[@DuringDark]

enfilade!

[@srijitmajumder99]

One of the most neglected Unique Units in the game along with Jaguar Warriors

[@ivanweissbein5253]

Now the Japanese civ overview is going to be a real surprise!!

[@jamesmattila-hine1133]

In some of those examples if you could sail around the side and get a few units on either flank and start firing That way you could use their pass through quite effectively

[@Ahzeral]

I used them once in a flank maneuver using fireships as a bolster and sent them to fire at the enemies gallys from the side so they can place some shots at the line they were forming hitting 5-6 ships per shot.

[@alexanderewing6312]

I find that they own most normal war ships, when you hit and run with them, as the enemy ships group up when they attempt to give chase.

[@zeroyuki92]

Seems like bringing their trajectory starting point down could buff them without changing any of their other stats? It will make they shot normally when their enemies are up close.

[@henke37]

No. Because that also lowers the distance traveled when aiming at far targets.

[@zeroyuki92]

@@henke37 Is that because of parabolic trajectory? Then how they could make it work for Land Scorpions?

[@Progeusz-]

@@henke37 It does not.

[@riseALK]

@@zeroyuki92 For land scorpions, the projectile moves a fixed distance irrespective of target position. This is also true for Chakrams. All other pass through sources (Caravel, Ballista Eles, Georgian towers) have projectiles with gravity, which are angled downwards and fall down quickly if aimed at closer units.

[@assasin4730]

Something I wish could have been explored more would be it's hit-and-fun value. M thinking is, if you engage a group of units and used hit an run tactis, it prevents those units from falling into a line formation and they will bunch up as they chase you, making better use of the the pass-through damage and theoretically longer range from pass-through. Maybe I'm wrong but would love to see it.

[@13g0man]

It seems that a good tactic for a large enough water map is to use Galleys as a front line, and Caravels to flank the enemy and attack while they are lined up to attack the galleys.

[@efroeli]

I've always wished boats were done just like.. totally differently in AoE. Seeing like 50 ships sink in 30 seconds always rubbed me wrong. Would be so much more cinematic if they were like 4x more expensive and had waaaaay more HP

[@davidpereira5969]

Basicaly aoe3 water. Its interesting but boils down to retreat micro and later on artilery, as those deal massive damage vs anything boat

[@boarfaceswinejaw4516]

same with castles honestly. twice as expensive, but far stronger and rather than break they become razed, meaning that anyone can rebuild it and take it over. positioning would be way more important then.

[@davidpereira5969]

@@boarfaceswinejaw4516 that's a cool idea, a building you can destroy and then rebuild for cheaper, even if it has worse stats or something

[@MC-wh3xm]

How cool would a naval organ gun unit be?

[@CallofDutyBlackOps28]

I would say having a galleon caravel naval squadron would do wonders; galleons be the bait while the caravels attack from the sides where they stack up the most.

[@CatafrascosDeElite]

I have one point, even if not Castle Age upgrade needed, you also need War Galley to improve Fire Ship line

[@dembro27]

I choose Caravel because it makes me think of ice cream cakes.

[@onikoneko]

I don't care if it's not as strong on paper, I have nothing but love for my little baby caravels~

[@quaintserpent]

I’d love to see galleon’s projectile change after researching chemistry to Hussite wagon’s projectile. 🙌🏻

[@flakstruk-8481]

The need a native +1 to range to sit behind galleys

[@xthetenth]

I think the bigger use for caravels is as a second group to flank a line formed up for a more standard battle.

[@APCS3X]

Hi @SpiritOfTheLaw and everyone else: Have you noticed that since the last update it's not possible to use a group of onagers with shift+click, e.g. to cut down a tree line? Only one onager in the group will execute the second and subsequent queued commands. I've noticed the same thing with shift+clicking on enemy buildings, if I have a group of 10 onagers that are supposed to go through multiple buildings, all but one of them will also drop the queue, the rest will just stop or start attacking something else.

[@diegoblin9090]

I would like to see a team up between caravels and galeons to see if anything unexpected happens

[@-Raylight]

Didn't know Teutonic Knights can float on water. They must be pretty light xD So Caravels are basically that cliche thing teachers love to show. One stick is easily breakable, but bunch of them? They're much stronger

[@SvanTowerMan]

Barbarossa wishes he could float on water.

[@Firebird377]

Guess it goes against common water battle wisdom, but would be curious to see how mixed fleets do here, i.e. throwing in a few caravels and trying to micro them to line up good shots while your and your foe's galleons fight it out.

[@ferenckovacs3939]

It stands to reason then portugese should use galleons in a line and a small group of caravels as a flanking unit (which is possibly the first time I hear about actual tactics and positioning (not counting the "sg goes forward" basic idea) in naval warfare especially in this game - which is awesome!).

[@falcyboop]

Ugh.. Caravels vs Thirisadai was a bad time for me finding that out in the Portuguese campaign 😔

[@miklosurmos565]

Imagine flanking the line of ships with this badboy

[@ethribin4188]

We realy need a UU ship tierlist.

[@davidhill1911]

So probably like a big group of caravels with heavy demo ships for a frontline or nearby to deal with fast fires.

[@aristoeldesarmado]

The title sounds like: "what if they had KZbin in XV century?"

[@magtag6879]

Berbers overview definitely incoming next!

[@kinbine_]

kind of question isabella I and ferdinand II would say

[@thomasfplm]

Caravels could receive a little speed buff.

[@leow193]

Maybe making the caravels a bit faster that galley could help ? If you rush with your caravels next to the galleys, they might stack instead of spreading when firing at them

[@NiDe500]

If they had a speed buff, could they be a micro-heavy flanking support specialist to your galleon frontline? They’re too expensive to sit on the front, but as others have noted their pierce attack gives great value if attacking from the side of a ship line through numerous units. That would capture their historical speed and give them a more micro-intensive niche, giving excellent value while your above average galleons do the slugfest fighting.

[@geodudism]

Your vids are great, i feel like i owe you something

[@NoMoreCrumbs]

They're basically useless with the way they're currently designed. Water power creep made them a waste of resources

[@niklasw.1297]

1:39 Did noone notice the distraction manoeuvre by the two Galleys?

[@mokadelic4037]

Ships also get significantly more easily stacked in rivers, making the caravels superior in maps without large water spaces and in chokepoints, especially against ground units.

[@spookynya3066]

Would be a nice touch if caravels had better line of sight, just for the history trivia

[@FunkyTruester]

Caravels take the word "situational" to a whole new level.

[@darkdill]

I've seen some comments on Reddit that say you didn't mention how Caravels are great against land-based units. On maps like Golden Swamp, they're like a super-tanky Scorpion with the speed of a Knight, even if they don't deal as much damage.

[@rikosakurauchi7161]

Teutonic Jesus 2:45

[@Elvetos]

I think because of their limited use, naval ships should be able to carry troops and gain advantages when they carry them.

[@pokefuranku]

Hey, Spirit of the Caravel here

[@jotfohm4644]

This is your mandatory comment of :"We are getting the 🇵🇹 Portuguese Overview Next." 🤣🫰🏻

[@jotfohm4644]

And there will be someone who will demand Teutons again.. 🤣🤣🤣

[@250914616672152]

@@jotfohm4644 Deus vult

[@wolfgangratz4976]

First Organ Guns, now Caravels... I wonder what the next video will be.

[@AgentForest]

I like to deathball my Caravels with Galleons and a few Fire Ships, then when the enemy ships line up to shoot back, I just double click a Caravel and flank the now perfectly lined up enemy ships. The fire ship and Galleon durability protects the fleet while the Caravels become the heavy hitters.

[@firehawk894]

Ah yes, just in time for me to be starting the Portuguese campaign!

[@TeeBar420]

They should give caravels a speed boost so they can fill a hit and run role

[@caterpillar1936]

You should do a video on the ethics of laming

[@magusdarkrider9779]

Hi SoTL! Can you pls do an analysis of the fully upgraded Athenian navy?

[@wiseSYW]

solution: either make the caravel cheaper or have more range

[@thomasfplm]

And a little faster.

[@MetalKing1417]

I say make them cheaper and faster but less durable..

[@shwetabhsinha23]

Didnt expect such a bad matchup against Thirasadai

[@XfStef]

Would be interesting to sed how well they do against land units.

[@matheusrios4223]

I really wish the AoE2 devs do a small buff of the naval part of portuguese, since portuguese is THE naval civ historically, specially at the time AoE2 takes place. I'm mostly talking about the Caravels and a little about the cannon galleon. Caravels should be significantly faster, and I think their cannons should be a little stronger. I would not change their galleons tho, they are already top tier. If I could, I would also make another unique ship unit created and widely used by the portuguese, named Nau (I believe the name in english is Carrack? or was it ship of the line? sorry fellas, I really could not find a definite answere about it). While most used for transport of cargo and people, the portuguese also made ones for war, with 3 masts and something between 80 and 120 guns, depending of it's classification (1st line usually had 100-120). they where slower than caravels but carried more weight.

[@Micaiah-q8k]

More history videos!

[@Jurigag]

Imho they should boost their speed and maybe delay of attack, so you could maybe use them for micro.

[@ethribin4188]

The Caravel is not at all bad. But it is underpowered

[@MC-wh3xm]

I think you've done this video before, bulk vs hybrid navy, but I could see fire ships upfront, galleys in a line, caravels flanking. Is this best case scenario even possible pvp? probably not.

[@justabarrelbomb4472]

idk why they always do this, they create a UU that is similar to an existing one, then give the civ tons of bonuses for the existing unit making the UU useless.

[@Alias_Anybody]

So like, place them in a channel or river? Sounds a bit too situational to me.

[@Fedacking]

Very niche use case, but would the caravel be better at hitting land units?

[@tylerrehkopf]

I don't understand why they didn't give the unit more speed. Seems like a very easy thing to do

[@wyw201]

The curious case of the Caravel 😂

[@davidsherlock5528]

It seems like the caravel would do best if you split the fleet into 2 or 3 groups, or is that not worth the micro?

[@agent00koll]

i assume they would be better if you micro them since you can get them in a better position or it would force opponent to micro which apearantly is better than oponent A-moving. the question i wanted to know i guess was would i be better to mix galley and caravel (or just stick with one) or does the ai do something stupid and puts the caravel infront if you mix them?

[@flydrop8822]

Wouldn't caravels do better against fire ships when microing them compared to microing galleons due to their pass-through bolts? I think that case should have been analysed.

[@Floris_VI]

You cant justfy the caravel not being a gunpowder unit thats wild

[@OneMoreDesu]

Choke points. Got it.

[@Fr33zerg]

What about galleys vs galleys/caravels 50/50?

[@melonetankberry5211]

thank you. the most under reported worst unique unit. samurai: counters all unique units (if danger close). caravels: counter 1 unique unit (only if massed).

[@DanielGalllego]

So acording to AOW2 the caravel is a river ship?

[@TheKobasen]

I still remember back in the day when caravel can fire backward when attacking enemies up close.

[@RoastCDuck]

Portugese are part of the ring of shame, next to Berbers and Malay, they do not have very useful civ bonuses either team bonuses, in going above and beyond their organ gun do become long range shotguns... but that's it.

[@Progeusz-]

Portuguese, Berbers and Malay are all great civs with many different bonuses benefitting them. Port gold discount is very useful, benefits all kinds of units, gives them versatility - and berry bonus makes their early eco good too. Malay faster uptime is gamechanging for both military and economy reasons and that bonus alone is enough to pick them in many maps over any other civ. Berbers have the best cavalry spam which is incredibly useful.

[@raysmith1127]

They are very good at longboat counter.

[@MouseDestruction]

So with the added range from firing angle its obviously best to put your caravel on a hill lol.

[@DCdabest]

Damn. They really need a bit of a redesign. The way the pass through damage works is quite odd

[@nathangamble125]

My thoughts: Galley's anti-ship bonus damage should be reduced. Fire ship's anti-ship armour should also be reduced. Towers with heated shot, and any anti-ship land unit, should absolutely shred fire ships. Galleys shouldn't be more effective against fire ships, but caravels should be more effective than a wet noodle against them.

[@nnaauujjddaa]

so the caravels are good for bunch up units? what is the strategy here? make caravels and pray i find those? or is that strategy of bunching up ships so normal you can guarantee the use of caravels?

[@Mexican00b]

I always mixed them in a 3:1 ratio with 3 being their galleons Why? Idk, i liked it

[@tylerrehkopf]

I think they should get more base damage to justify the cost.

[@tylerrehkopf]

So it is a great ship for rivers and bays but she doesn't fair well on the high seas

[@andresperedo1275]

Caravels should be a regional unit for Portuguese and Spanish