Are Climbing Accidents Preventable?

[@MosesSedler]

I can't help thinking that using a PAS clipped to a hanger would have given the climber the opportunity to check the system after cleaning the gear😢

[@spncrptrsn]

This kind of content is invaluable. Thank you.

[@ryenschimerman2127]

Thank you for discussing risk and introducing a basic risk matrix. When I came across it in the NIST framework about a decade ago, it literally changed my life. One thing I would add, would be that any sort of PAS system properly used would have prevented this tragedy. Pressure testing your system before weighting, is a cure for a lot of mistakes.

[@paulmorin2582]

Very sorry to hear about this fatal climbing accident. I appreciate your excellent perspective on risk management and safety. We look at frequency/severity quite a bit in what I do and I find it useful in many situations, particularly climbing. Thanks for sharing.

[@AnnaSchmaltz]

Honestly, I’ve wondered about the consequences of falling and their probabilities as I am newer to climbing. Understanding the risk factors does help. Thank you!

[@mignonhagemeijer3726]

This can also be avoided by having a lanyard or even first using a quickdraw you secure yourself? Only unclip that when you're back in belay & the lanyard is unloaded. It creates so much more redundancy and is so little additional effort when cleaning a route

[@ashleysherlow1012]

great video as always, thank you.

[@Erik-vr2uu]

Around the 7 minute mark was quite eye opening for me. I consider myself fairly experienced, and I often take a few less experienced friends with me to the crag. Usually I lead a climb and they can top rope it (although they all have lead experience indoors, most of them are not confident enough to lead outdoors). Admittedly I have little knowledge of rescue techniques, and I think I will have to get some practice with some expert climbers

[@summitseekersexperience]

Anything that makes you think is a good thing

[@vinceburris2538]

Invaluable usable content. Thank you. Please, keep em coming.

[@djdiscopapi]

love it! managing risk is the name of the game.

[@ryanratliff9084]

Hey man just wanted to say that I really appreciate your content it’s always concisely made and useful information. Lots of climbing KZbinrs out there over the years that haven’t really held up but your content is consistently good so thanks man.

[@summitseekersexperience]

Awesome thanks for the compliment!

[@MaxM26]

Hey Jason! I miss your content! Any news?

[@jamjam98765]

I really like this video. Greetings from the Canadian Rockies! A great place to visit for all types of climbing :)

[@summitseekersexperience]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@EstrogenSingularity]

Here's a simple idea purchase two stainless steel rings made by refutable company like fixie hardware keep them in your car or van or whatever top rope through the fixed hardware after you lead then when you find worn out rings go in direct on the bolts still on belay with the quick draw below and replace the worn out rings

[@joshb693]

So helpful, thanks for this Jason!

[@isaacjamesbaker]

Really helpful. Thanks!

[@dylangene7220]

Is there a reason most mussy hooks both face out away from the rock? I wonder if one faced in and one faced out, if this type of mistake could have been avoided. I don't think this opposing orientation would make it more difficult to clip.

[@summitseekersexperience]

The mussy hooks are really designed to be a slightly safer version of open-shuts… they really should be belayed through, just lowered through like open shuts. So textbook wise probably facing out is appropriate… I think rings in general would be more safe in nearly all cases.

[@dylangene7220]

I can agree with that. Thanks for the reply and the great video. You make excellent content.

[@wdm212]

@@summitseekersexperience I disagree about rings being safer in most cases. In order to lower (or rap) from rings, you need to untie to thread the rope - getting the order of operations wrong could lead to an accident. Clipping the mussy hooks avoids this risk simplifying the lower. and if someone is top roping after the person who first lead the route, the leader should leave an appropriate top rope anchor that can easily be cleaned considering the use of mussy hooks. I agree that hooks facing out is appropriate because they are easiest to clip when reaching the top of a sport route (their intended purpose) and should never be climbed above without other forms of protection.

[@gimmepowder]

PAS probably would have prevented this tragedy. Even then this climber should never have been sent up to clean the anchor without having cleaned an anchor under supervision first.

[@summitseekersexperience]

For sure, imagine if a PAS had been used... no incident.

[@rfcdgaf]

@@summitseekersexperience Pas or not isn't the problem. The real problem is the faulty line of thinking and misapplication of a locking biner, typically used for an entirely different scenario. To mussy hooks. Address the root of the problem, not the symptom. THe point is, that locking biner SHOULD NEVER have been there in the first place. Even if that person was TR'ing on mussies, there would've been no need to clean ANYTHING without the locking biner in place. All they had to do was pull the rope through when they are done. I wish THIS was said more, instead of repeating "should've had a PAS". That wasn't the real problem.

[@iVVES]

@@rfcdgaf I think the locking carabiner was a misapplication because the system was not a closed system. But, with the theme of layered protection, I don't think anyone could argue that if a PAS was clipped and locked, this would have helped prevent the tragedy.

[@lizardking8840]

@@rfcdgaf yeah I think the point of saying "PAS prevents this" is that IF you are going to use a less than ideal TR anchor, you should at the very least have the means to test that system before trusting it. I agree that the anchor setup shouldn't be used but its kind of a "if your gonna be dumb, at least be smart dumb" situation. That said, you wont ever catch me TRing without a PAS and double draws or a quad.

[@Lambda25]

Great video. Only additional thing worth discussing is; are dual mussy-hooks a sufficiently safe sport anchor system? Looking at it from a European perspective where they aren't used, they seem quite sketchy to me.

[@summitseekersexperience]

I wish they would just use standard rings here… I think some of the Climbing organizations that maintain the areas thought these would be safer for lowering off… but as you can see there’s some gaps

[@PBeetheFox]

Mussy hooks aren't even opposite and opposed.

[@chriskaplan6109]

Hey Jason great content as always, you are so thoughtful and intelligent with your approach. Let me guess, work in emergency management or safety/security? Thanks!😊

[@summitseekersexperience]

Chemical engineering… the matrix concept comes from risk assessments we do on facilities we design

[@falkschulz1650]

Thank you for the helpful content!Are there any textbooks you would recommend for safe climbing, different anchor systems etc?

[@space9277]

Try your local public library. Odds are they have a database/website and you can search a term like rock climbing to see which books are available. Some libraries have print and also digital copies of books. You can also watch the other videos on this channel which cover quad anchors and personal anchors to remain safe at the top.

[@dannyCOTW]

If you look at the aviation industry decades ago it was really quite a dangerous activity. Now, commercial aviation has a similar risk as standing in your living room. This is an extremely clear example that if a community wants to, we can effectively bring the risk to 0. There is also a cost of doing this, the effort of consistently eliminating or mitigating unnecessary hazards, engineering controls (making gear that can only be used correctly), and administrative items like certification requirements, and PPE like wearing your lid. I know which choice I want to make.

[@timonix2]

@12:34 The hell? Don't top rope on mussy hooks. Imagine that thing that killed the poor dude? let's say a 1 in 100 accident. Sure way to make it worse is to repeat the same 1/100 risk 40 times in a day with beginners jumping around at the anchor. If you are top roping from an anchor with fixed mussy hooks. Use your own locking carabiners. They cannot and should not be used for top roping.

[@Climbingdude]

Another great video.

[@simold13]

The recommendation here of using the mussy hooks to toprope...hmnn. The accident referred to shows us the possibility of unclipping when the gates are facing the same way. If you don't have to unclip at the top, you reduce the risk of this happening, but you don't eliminate it (beginners in particular do weird things at the anchor).

[@summitseekersexperience]

Hopefully you didn't take away the message to belay directly off mussy hooks. That was not the intent of the video.

[@simold13]

@@summitseekersexperience You don't say this directly, but from 12:15 or so, this does sound like what is being recommended. The suggestion is that the locking carabiner was unnecessary. I'm worried than less experienced viewers will take this as an 'OK' to belay through parallel mussy hooks.

[@rfcdgaf]

@@simold13 Not only was the locker unecessary it was dangerous, for exactly the reason shown. That's BESIDE the point of you're not supposed to be TR'ing off mussys EITHER WAY. Remove all mussies, seriously. Force people to bring their own TR anchor setups. This problem will go away. Just the comments alone on this youtube video should convince you of this Have to protect people from themselves.

[@iVVES]

I believe the intent was to highlight that the cost of a life is infinitesimal compared to the wear and tear on the mussy hooks. The group should have built their own anchor system, I don't think anyone is disputing that. But, the wear and tear on the mussy hook is nothing compared to the loss of life.

[@rickkrause3198]

@@rfcdgaf There is no difference with you bringing quick draws with wire gate carabiners as top rope anchors or using Mussy hooks for top anchors.

[@quietfire286]

Great video

[@CharlieTrevaskis]

Do you think mussy hooks are appropriate for out of site top roping of multiple beginners? I think the extra locking biner for security could make sense. I also feel like having a personal anchor while cleaning, even if its just a single biner, then testing before removing would go a long ways.

[@wdm212]

For me, absolutely not. Their purpose is for lead climbing lower offs to reduce risk of accidents from rappelling or waslk offs. A dedicated top rope anchor should be used for out of signt top ropes such as a quad anchor with lockers, or a locking quickdraw with the anchor point below the mussy hooks to facilitate easy cleaning. using only the mussy hooks, a climber could inadvertently climb above the hooks exposing themselves to a fatal ground fall - an unacceptable risk. I agree that proper use of a personal anchor goes a long way.

[@gimmepowder]

I've seen examples online of the safe way to set up a top rope anchor with mussy hooks. Basically consruct an anchor with locking biners below the mussy hooks. Then clip the mussy hooks only when ready to clean anchor. This way you can take on the hooks before cleaning the unweighted anchor system. Agree about the PAS.

[@summitseekersexperience]

Similar to the other replies, I would recommend building a traditional anchor vs utilizing the mussy hooks

[@rfcdgaf]

You failed to understand, literally THAT exact thinking is what got someone killed. Remove mussy hooks, problem solved. You put those there, and people are GOING to top rope off of them. And think, oh it would be better if we put a locker as a security measure... FFS

[@finleypetit5197]

Definitely gonna get that practice board, having muscle memory as opposed to thinking super hard to remember how to do stuff is invaluable

[@summitseekersexperience]

For sure, I use mine all the time.

[@elistidham8494]

Girls