Are Dire Wolves Any Good in Patch 5.3? - Vampire Count Unit Focus

[@aprinnyonbreak1290]

The butter to the bread of skeletons and zombies of making the most basic vampire counts army work. They can do terrifying damage if well micro'd, and are your workhorse of choice for making bad things that want to kill many skeletons go away. They tend to have extremely short, brutal lives as units, but honestly, treating them as disposable lighters helps their performance, all told. Good chance you get them back anyways. There's a lot of things that can do their job better, but none of those things are as disposable, cheap, and ubiquitous, except maybe bats, and bats are only good with an overwhelming numbers advantage, or at commiting warcrimes against archers on walls. Pup for pup, dire wolves can make some of the best value trades Counts are capable of, up until that perfect Wind of Death snaps away 60% of an enemy army in a second. I can't understate how much I love these puppers. A lot of warhound units can be of variable quality, based on the needs and compliments of their parent army, and despite not having any of the fancy tricks that rat hounds or chaos warhounds do, Dire Wolves are just the right unit, in just the right spot, to be ludicrously effective and put in work carrying the vampire counts early game squarely in their back. Or sled? Dogs pull sleds, more than they tote bales, yes? Hard to to tell with vampire counts. Any army that isn't swimming in higher tier units really needs to ask itself why it doesn't have one or two of these, and if the answer isn't "I could not care less about the units in this army" or "I'm Hellman Ghorst and these are my favorite Zombies on the Citadel", I'm tempted to swing the broad, clumsy statement that your answer is just wrong.

[@OffToBattle]

I smiled the whole time I was reading your comment, so it's an easy Pin decision. Yes, they can do ludicrous damage if you micro well and the enemy allows it, and not so bad at capping victory points easily, something bats certainly cannot. Sometimes that matters.

[@forloveofthepage2361]

I like to pair them with something fast and devastating like Lance knights or crypt horrors. Hit the flank with the mean unit, then as the leadership wavers, hit with the wolves. Once the break, move the mean unit on to the next thing and have the wolves escort the flanked unit off the map.

[@OffToBattle]

I think this is a very strong tactic and I'm trying to get even better at it myself.

[@ARTEMISXIX]

This is a pretty common strategy for Norsca players, where they pair their horseback javelins with dogs to allow them to gank higher tier cav

[@Zuginator]

I love wolf units for hitting spearmen in the back! I love having a cavalry option that spearmen don't get their bonus against! Also their low mass means they won't miss the attack because they knocked the opponent out of the damage zone, I HATE that issue. So they are great at eating fleeing units.

[@OffToBattle]

All very true. Shortcomings notwithstanding they're really good at their designed job.

[@Poolehful]

Dire wolves are fantastic, I love them. Their huge speed and damage against soft targets make them an ideal counter to crewed weapons and archers. They can readily chase down any routing troops to ensure they don't ever come back, and can flank light infantry in a pinch to expedite the battle. Vlad is a god tier pairing with them, too. Master of Beguilement for -40 attack to a target plus +24 attack with Danse Macabre allows wolves to punch incredibly above their weight. Suddenly you have an inescapable death squad that is on-demand invulnerable to nasties like greatswords. Few other spells to strip armour can also heavily mitigate their weaknesses.

[@OffToBattle]

Since I'm running an Isabella campaign I'll have to remember to try that trick if I need it. Vlad's a beast but there's only one of him, so nom-nomming the backline goes much faster like this...

[@Poolehful]

@@OffToBattle VC's got a lot of tricks like this. Often times just the thing to make a unit perform is a bit of magic.

[@1Flyffer1]

I love how these doggos will wrek a crossbow unit in seconds unless you look away. then by the time you've issued another order or cast a spell you look back and they've evaporated.

[@OffToBattle]

Light Cavalry Life, further taken to the extreme, yes.

[@GerritTV187]

Came back because I noticed that the von carstein bloodline lords buff fell bats and firewood alongside their unique hand gunner and crossbowmen units. I haven't tested the effectiveness yet but it is quite a lot of buffs

[@OffToBattle]

I hadn't used them much in-game so I hadn't noticed that yet. There's so much under the graveyard's surface with this faction!

[@Gneeznow]

These are my favourite when playing vampire coast, they absolutely chew through retreating units to the point where the usually kill off the entire unit, saves you having to fight them the next battle if you gotta go at the same army again

[@OffToBattle]

The Coast equivalent is a unit I had to fight a lot in TWW2 because they were recruited from docks, funnily enough... but I like the option of them playing as Coast themselves.. speed to get in the enemy's back is useful. Can't get too attached to the doggies though. Very fragile.

[@SilverKnightXx]

Also I think the changes they made recently on how chasing units behave realy helped them out in their effectiveness.

[@OffToBattle]

I felt wolves were one of the few units that WERE effective at that before the changes, so it's even more solid now.

[@barnabyjones1512]

I like to bring them paired with Blood Knights. They can stack on top of them, similar to using zombies to absorb blows that Crypt Horrors would take on the front line. If you're facing enemy cav, they can also be used to absorb their charge attack. Opening up the enemy cav to be charged by your Blood Knights.

[@OffToBattle]

That's rough on the dogs but a clean charge by Blood Knights should obliterate a lot of stuff in the game.

[@SilverKnightXx]

I love those doggos

[@OffToBattle]

I haven't looked intensely at the RoR's yet but the whole faction's been interesting now that I've been taking a much closer look.

[@ayytess]

Like you said, direwolves are fantastic at running down and eliminating routing units. I don’t even treat them like they’re in my army until the enemy begins to rout, and that’s when I send the wolves out from the trees.

[@OffToBattle]

If I have no other choice, I'll totally hold them back until the battle is over and THEN let them off the leash, so to speak. If they can do something more? That's great too.

[@TheTarturo]

I long thought about it, but I think it's time: As an old veteran of warhammer fantasy 6th through 8th edition, I will give a bit of background on how the units you highlight on this channel generally performed on tabletop and how much their video game usage and rules align with what the did on tabletop. Dire Wolves are amazing. They are very fast moving, cheap Core units, that never run away and can be healed. All of that makes them the perfect tactical unit for an array of uses: 1. You can quickly threaten artillery (though not guarantee that the bats will win). 2. You can place them in front of enemy units to either force an unfavourable charge on them, redirect them (meaning after they charged the enemy has to continue moving into a direction) or the enemy doesn't even charge at all. 3. You can charge off fleeing enemies. 4. You can take a unit of 8 with a Champion upgrade. This cheap unit "hunts" the strongest character your opponent has, that isn't in a unit. You charge the enemy, your champion dog challenges them to a duel (which they can't refuse), get squashed, but because it was a duel, the other wolves can be attacked for a turn. Next turn they get squashed, of course, but that is two turns your opponent can't do nothing with their strongest piece. And you might even have prepared a counter charge in the meantime. You can never go wrong bringing at least a couple of Dire Wolf units. So in some ways, they are well reprented in the videogame.

[@OffToBattle]

Lorehammer always welcome. I really enjoyed reading your comment!

[@TheTarturo]

@@OffToBattle Thanks. More "Gamelorehammer", really.^^' I always liked how well presented most units in Total Warhammer were in comparison to their tabletop counterparts and your videos are ideal for talking abou that. So thanks for you effort.^^

[@clarentbloodarthur]

hey man, love your vids. completely random question, do u think we would ever get a total warhammer AOS or 40K game?

[@OffToBattle]

I feel 40k is more likely, but that's complete guesswork based on a) how it would print money b) what Games Workshop seems willing to tolerate as something to boost its IP rather than cannibalize it. But we'll see... I don't know what other KZbinrs with deeper roots in the tabletop think about that one.

[@egalomon]

They have one simple counter and it's called "Fire at all directions".

[@OffToBattle]

That's why the best use of wolves is to get them in someone's face before that even happens....

[@IronyAcolyte]

One thing to note that I don't believe you covered in the video is that some VC lords can further buff the undead doggos. Von Carstein Lords can give them more speed as well as both physical and magical resistance. Isabella in particular can give them a variety of buffs: more leadership, melee attack, movement speed, armor piercing damage, the wayfarer ability (better acceleration and deceleration), and finally The Hunger ability which lets them heal while in combat! And for Izzy, some of those skills also buff later game units like Varghulfs/gheists and Terrorgheists meaning you won't be "wasting" those skill points just to make the Dire wolves more dangerous!

[@OffToBattle]

I'm mentioning some of these in my almost-ready-to-publish Fell Bats video but I ruthlessly cover all such buffs in lord-specific videos, they just take more time to make haha.. thanks though, love the comments supplementing videos, it's how things should work.

[@kirillrivkin4842]

These guys are great for disruption, flanking and chasing enemies off the field. It addresses Vampire Counts' greatest weakness - lack of ranged damage. Can you do a video on Dire Wolves ROR? Also, how do they compare to Fell Bats and when would you use each one of them?

[@aprinnyonbreak1290]

For bats, I'd say, if wolves are something of a hammer, bats are a scalpel. You can clean house with wolves at almost any time, so long as there is an exposed flank, or a unit that would really rather not be in melee. Bats are significantly less robust, bats need to be held back, and used at perfect moments to kick struggling units while they're down, jump on warmachine crews or otherwise extremely weak melee archers, or escort units off the battlefield. Where bats excel, in their own odd way, is when massed. 4 or 5 units of bats swarming one unit WILL rip it to shreds, so long as that unit is anything less than like, Chaos Chosen. They might take some damage doing it, and a unit of bats might drop dead from it, but if you need a unit dead ASAP, they can do it. Much better against archers and the like, who they can swarm and eat alive in sequence, and special mention absolutely must be made of their effectiveness against units on walls. Such units are often compressed and stationary in ways other units just aren't, and a few bats can devour them even better. They can also be really good if held in reserve to clean up battered and bloody units in the late game scraps vampires sometimes find themselves in. Kinda like wolves, they're best treated as somewhat disposable. Obviously don't throw them away for nothing, but if their job requires their death, so be it. If they will die preventing some outsider grenade launchers from mulching your lines, then don't hesitate to have them do it. Every second they buy is worth it. They're easy to replace, and you might get them back anyways. The swarming only really works on the grounds that as vampire counts, it's generally good to have packs of lords with expendable armies. A swarm of bats is PROBABLY more helpful than a third pile of zombies in an actual fight, at any rate. On their own, stick to warmachine crews, using them to break units that are already wavering, tying up ranged units (probably at the cost of their life), and chasing things off. MAYBE as an impromptu hammer if dire wolves or some cavalry charge something and are in the rare position to be an anvil

[@OffToBattle]

Your second question, I'm planning that next (decided it should air before Vargheists) to help, but dire wolves can hide in forest and can cap victory points. Bats can't do either. Otherwise they compare decently despite some big stat differences, but wolves simply have much more offensive striking power, bats have more tarpitting power (especially catching light cavalry and slowing it enough for wolves to hit them). As for the RoR, I need to familiarize myself with the early to mid games one a lot more but it will happen. Someone mentioned Things in the Woods so I'll try and get to them soon too though. That's my long weekend plan.

[@OffToBattle]

Yeah it's always good to keep in mind reinforcing armies, travel times... reinforcing zombies will take an eternity to shamble across the map but bats coming in will be relevant in fairly short order. Wolves have to go around. Bats can just fly over things and then mob from behind to assist the others. The whole is always more than the sum of the parts.

[@nicklindberg90]

Good bois

[@OffToBattle]

I always had a soft spot for them.

[@GerritTV187]

i dont have the redline in front of me rn but if they share redline with some significant units i really like buff these warhounds. with the beastmen for example you can really get them dogs some nice decent buffs. and i think especially for the vc those fast dogs are really important to g et rid of a few artillery pieces because try nahek-countering morters.

[@OffToBattle]

Sadly, they share redline with Fell bats, hence my comments about not expecting many players to spec into them. I have with Isabella with some amusing results, but it's a special case.

[@GerritTV187]

@@OffToBattle maybe it's an emperors finest situation where 1 pib really gives the nice bonus but yeah. Probably a nieche pic. Maybe one for reinforcing army taking bats and dogs :P

[@Enterprise4Life]

I never find them getting much or any kills even when i rear charge with em, they immediately end up in losing decisively. Same with fellbats and harpies but those are more squishy and slower

[@OffToBattle]

The best way is to gang up on something you can break. Even basic Swordsmen will wreck dire wolves or the RoR IF the AI makes them turn and wail on them. So, attack backs, pull out, attack something else's back... and that's why hitting stuff you know you can kill like weak missile units is key. That's how you get 150-190 kills with these units in typical battles, as in, their number of kills should outpace almost everything Tier I to III in your roster if you're fighting Empire, even if it "kills" them. And in my case it often does.

[@wolffrdu6463]

Arkhan’s dire wolf have 100 speed, it’s nice

[@OffToBattle]

Do you want me to cite Isabella's? ^^; But yes, swifter wolves are good boys.

[@raphaelantoine7331]

Best units of all vampire units to kill fleeing units, with that use alone they can reach crazy damage value!

[@OffToBattle]

They are indeed great at that.

[@jaredfischer6040]

These little bastards have too much speed and charge bonus to ignore them if you are fighting against them. In addition to their other stated uses, they can also act as a screen against other fast, squishy units. They do enough damage on the charge to make trying to get past them inconvenient, and any trade you make with them is likely going in the vamps favor because they are so cheap, even if they lose.

[@OffToBattle]

Yeah, I focus on wiping dog units out early when fighting them not just because they're squishier than other stuff but because they're dangerous and if I ignore them I will be punished.

[@guitarhausdoesntknowwhatac3285]

In the early game dire wolves aren't bad; they're stupid fast and their charge hit's like a truck making them a real problem for archers, artillery crews and even conventional infantry as a fast flanker. Problem is, if they run up against anything with armor or (god forbid) cavalry they melt really fast. My take is that you use them in the early game and ditch them shortly thereafter unless you are prepared to babysit them and hope you get matchups that allow you to exploit their advantages.

[@OffToBattle]

Or it's a reinforcing army and they're one of the few units you can get into the fight in time. That sort of thing comes up, sneaking into the back of a city in a siege.. if they're not bringing utility that's when they're really not working for you.

[@Canuovea]

They're essentially necessary for the roster.

[@OffToBattle]

If you aren't bringing your own range you need to counter it.

[@heuclmeucl-heucl5351]

Okay i really have to ask, and i don’t know if you got an answer, but right now I’m playing a Manfred campaign and before that I was playing an Arkhan one, and omg did arkhan direwolves were crazy strong!!! Like melting infantry and deleting archer to the point i’m wondering if they might be bugged? Is it just me?

[@OffToBattle]

If they're normal Bretonnian and Empire infantry and archers? No, that's how they work for everyone, it's just not appreciated enough. Glass jaw doesn't matter if the enemy can't manage to kill them, and being small and low mass means they gang up on units better than most because of no knockdown as someone else mentioned. So the paradox is, easy to kill them (relatively), but you take stupidly large amounts of damage from them if you allow them to roam wild.

[@dac314]

Yes, yes, a thousand times, YES! When you don't have ranged units, you need your mobile troops to cleanly and efficiently win those skirmishes. Never leave home without them.

[@OffToBattle]

I didn't want to clog the video with mentioning Isabella's buffs, though I pad Fell bats with a little of that talk, but among other boosts, +30% Speed just punts it to the next dimension of insanity. It's like she has a personal vendetta against archers and crossbowmen, exceeding anything you'll get from the most elitist of Bretonnian knights.

[@dac314]

Another thing is being used to tie up heavy cavalry with their incredible speed, allowing you to set the stage for counter-charges, or spear-screens.

[@Dan-bq1dz]

Turn 1-20 trash dogwater unit. Research lets them down, their model count is a complete joke, their tactical role is surpassed by both vargheists and black knights by midgame, and thanks to raise dead you'll have those good alternatives early. This unit should exist as a cheap summon like skaven pack masters get. Worthless as is. Arguably better than bat swarms but only barely. Not sure why every dog unit in this game is so terrible, but c'est la vie.

[@OffToBattle]

The thing is, it's not about how good they are versus something else, it's if they get the job done, and the dogs get stuff done well into midgame or well into endgame depending on the nature of the opposition. But anyway, I don't want everyone to agree with me on something. Thanks for commenting!