How to Pick a Martial Arts Gym

[@ArmchairViolence]

The most interesting part of the comments section today is seeing all the people that genuinely prefer different types of gym cultures.

[@SwordAndWaistcoat]

Which is probably a testament to the utility of your model because it means that folks can articulate what they want and find it more easily.

[@kevinjung6130]

One of the most interesting things I've encountered is how culture can play a huge role in what type of gym culture people prefer. I've seen a lot of people differentiate older styles of martial arts training (수련-soo ryun) from modern, more goal-oriented individualized training (트레이닝, which is just training written in Korean). "수련" has deeper spiritual connotations. For older folks who have spent the majority of their lives in a more procedure/hierarchy oriented class setting (people lined up into neat rows, all shouting in unison and doing motions listening to the guy in charge), there's a special almost religious/spiritual value to that. After the Japanese Occupation and really throughout its history, Korea has always had military drills built into school events from elementary schools to high school. The training would be focused on getting people to move, act, shout as a unit, not as individuals. Most martial arts classes were structured similar to that. When it's done well, it's like being at a rally and shouting phrases in unison, and it gets people GOING. To them, a more free-flowing environment where people might be working on different things in the same class looks less structured and lacks the sort of tribalistic pizazz, even if it does a better job of helping people achieve their own goals. That having been said, since the legendary K1 years grew a lot of kickboxing fans in Korea, and with guys like Jung Chan Sung, the super humble posterboy for MMA in Korea, dispelling any preconceived notions of MMA just being for thugs, younger generations are far less fond of the older style of group training that focuses on the procedure and almost ritualistic aspects of everyone doing the same motions and yelling the same phrases in unison, and prefer the sort of training you see in your typical combat sports gym.

[@rllydude3600]

you bastard, this was one amazing video

[@joh_kun5530]

And another layer to that is people from other cultures either being invited into the culture of eastern traditional martial arts through the mysticism related to it, or the civility and comfort it provides through those ritualistic procedures more so than its promise of being able to fight. And of course sometimes it's just older folk who aren't as fond of the idea of getting tossed around and feeling like they're 120 years old at 50. I've heard a lot of the arguments defending traditional martial arts leaning away from the angle of providing effective training that allows one to fight - and more so the defense of the traditional structures for more ethical and social reasons, as well as the celebration of culture and TMA's ability to provide a good workout on top of that, none of which modern gyms really emphasize on or try to provide (though I'd argue that providing an emphasis on ethics is kind of redundant, as the process of being able to fight itself leads one to be more ethical, as they now have the choice over whether or not to do evil or good and most choose good) @@kevinjung6130

[@thiagodunadan]

I'm in the military, so I have enough hieranchy in my daily life. For that reason, I hate autoritary gyms.

[@Valchrist1313]

My mom tried to sign me up for "Sun Hang Do" when I was a kid. Rather than technique, they were most interested that I scream "Ki-Ya" loud enough on every movement. I left after one lesson.

[@AirLancer]

From the Sun Hang Do website: "It is the art of perfect balance born from the union of two dynamic opposites." Then the bullshit detector exploded.

[@RageYourSoul]

I will not say what this club was good or bad, but when it comes to kids, this helps teach them to be confident and build some fighting spirit. Usually you would not shout because you lack the confidence or shyness, getting over this buildds strength. Sometimes you have to think outside the box, the lesson in ittself was a good one if you followed through,

[@christophervelez1561]

I’ve been to all of them except the cult. I like the authoritarian style as a student starting because it’s just easier to follow directions. The more experienced I got I started liking the more loose styles of gyms.

[@maxanderson3733]

Totally makes sense

[@KINGSTUNAX]

The most dumb approach only benefiting the cult otherwise it is under authoritative classes where cult form. Because you cannot question the authority😂 therefore it is the most dumb approach to teach someone something. Iucky for me I found the best person who taught me at my pace helped me understand my bodies limitation and how work around it. It was most helpful experience.

[@crazygreek6341]

I like icy mikes take on how to choose a gym: what ever is closest to you, that you like and will attempt regularly.

[@jc-kj8yc]

The gym I felt most comfortable in was a mixture of multiple types, because the classes were structured differently. 1. Regular classes followed the traditionalist/authoritarian model. The coach followed a pre conceptionalized curriculum and had the clear authority. Questions were allowed, but either short and brief to not disturb the flow or after the class. 2. The advanced classes were more open minded. The coach usually opened with a "problem", showed a couple of solutions, let us test them out with varying resistance and/or tasked us with coming up with our own strategies. After that there used to be sparring. 3. Strength and conditioning classes. Back to authoritarianism baby! You did what coach said, no ifs, no buts. Work! Move or die! 4. Competition classes. These varied depending on the competition and the focus of the lesson. They could be pretty authoritarian, i.e. you just did what the coach asked you to do, but they also could allow experimentation/free flow. Either way, lots of sparring. 5. Pure sparring classes. The timer had the authority. Coach would pre program a set number of rounds and then we'd sparr in constant rotation. These depended a bit on the coach and their mood that day. Sometimes they'd stand on the side of the ring/mats, make sure everyone worked hard and give individual instructions and sometimes they wouldn't even say sth to you if you took a round off. 6. "Open mat"/ free gym time: everyone, including the coaches, just hung out and did whatever they felt like. Solo drilling on the heavy bag, sparring, technical drills, watching youtube videos and trying out the techniques, just sitting on the mat chatting. These would be on sundays and could easily end with a bbq, trip to the next pool or just a few beers in the gym lounge.

[@ulysses-pact]

That looks ideal.

[@mishael1339]

Sounds like my gym. Basically a flavor of the center of the chart.

[@JTtheReptile]

That sounds like my gym. I go to a mix of all those classes.

[@landoftheninja]

That sounds awesome

[@lyooyiylklykyokyklky]

I bloody love HEMA, but the proportion of "umm ackshuallys..." does my nut in. I love the learning side of it, but going to a HEMA meet invariably means quickly learning who to dodge because they are looking to get someone in a corner and talk at them for as long as possible.

[@imjustsam1745]

Like most of the other commenters, it's evolved over time with me. I never liked authoritarian gyms but spent a ton of time in them when I was younger because even if it was always a struggle, I needed it. I was a messy kid who was heading for prison before a no nonsense gym full of old cops. Fast forward twenty years, I've got a son, I'm one the bosses at work, I'm the authority and source of discipline. When I go to roll, I want a break from discipline and authority, just a chance to enjoy being healthy and successful, so it's the opposite of how it started. I might even be down for weed and anime if the circumstances are right. Edit: I meant to thank you for the video the first time. You're awesome, looking forward to your next one.

[@canetwentynine97]

i had a very peculiar experience with this. was doing taekwondo (famously known for being non effective and very relaxed). Quit for personal reasons, years later decided to start something "better" so i joined a muay thai gym. The thai gym? 0 sparring. pure shadow boxing and exercise (for like 3 months). only the people they cared to pick, were called to a different class to spar, but rarely. Went back to my old tkd place. Sparring almost every class, have a lot of fun. Miss the very little clinch training we did tho. its a curious duality and contradiction that the place that taught the most brutal martial art, didnt spar, and the one known for being weak. did. And a clear example of this you're talking about and how every martial art can have any type of gym culture.

[@hamstermk4]

At the far end of Libertarian culture, the instructor's only responsibility is maintaining the equipment, and the role may swap between respected members.

[@salvadorromero9712]

Little wonder this is shaping up to be one of the more popular videos; it's incredibly useful and this is an excellent framework that everyone needs to adopt in their thought. I don't agree 100% with every theoretical framework on this channel but this one is definitely spot on! I can't wait for the age of dojo compass memes. The description of the process-oriented BJJ dojo made me laugh a bit (I'm gonna be a pioneer in results-oriented capoeira), but of course McDojo is hardly an unheard of problem there. This vid did a great job of describing the true advantages of all styles; virtually no position in the compass is inherently "bad" provided you go through it with eyes wide open in conscious alignment with your goals. In practice this typically doesn't happen of course, especially in the McDojo quadrant. This is why things like Krav Maga (even more than "self defense class" which at least gets housewives in shape) and others like it, and for that matter bad BJJ, can be said to be the most comprehensively useless and wastes of time. Because they very thoroughly and explicitly try to sell themselves as results oriented in some sense, but are in reality hidebound into systems that don't work and use authority (and cultural appeals) to sell themselves as otherwise.

[@ArmchairViolence]

"age of dojo compass memes." I didn't even think about the memes, but now I can't wait either. 😂

[@zoomingby]

So much hard work, time, and thinking goes into these videos. Massive respect for the end-product. Keep up the great work!

[@Kottenification]

Cool video on an important matter. (By the way - I'm sorry if my English isn't quite on par with yours - I enjoy your content from Sweden). I started to box when I was 8 years old, and have kept it up since. I am now soon to be 50. When I first started - I joined the club closest to me. As I grew older - I was looking for the most "succesful" aswell as "traditional" - somewhat local - boxing gym, and joined their ranks. My coach was authoritaritan, however - he was also the European champion (amateur) and an olympic medalist. This helped a lot when I was in my "competing years" (from 16 to 35). As I am - today - too old to compete myself, I have started to coach within the same club, but I have a more libertarian mindset. However - I coach mostly hobbyists and beginners.But - to me - it's more important that these people feels the environment to be "open" rather than results orientated. I started, a couple of months ago, to pick up my second martial art (and broaden my horizons, so to speak), taking up Muay Thai. Being a student again - and in a very libertarian club, but with some competition fighters (a couple of national champions) in the gym, the culture is somewhat result orientated. At least more so than focusing on traditions. I found that training at two places at the same time - with different cultures - has made me better as a coach, coaching boxing. I've gained insights from "just taking classes" in Muay Thai that I would not have had if I had just stayed at my boxing gym without any other influences for the last 30 or so years. Anyhow - thanks for your enlightening clip! Keep up the good work! Best regards /A swedish, old, used-to-be-boxer-turned-martial-artist

[@mcbill7352]

Your English is indistinguishable from a native. In fact, better than most.

[@redviper324]

I’ve got about 10 years experience and now I basically just want to spar. At least for striking. Grappling is a bit different, but every technique has some sort of opposition anyway.

[@richardmcallister460]

I really like the adaptation of the political ideology chart for this purpose! I have been through almost all the points on the compass, but the spot that I'm currently at - and my favorite! - is most of the way down the Laid Back axis with a moderate bump towards the Results Oriented end. While I was strongly tempted to go to the local spot that's an excellent exemplar of the Results Oriented end, I realized that one of the things I love most about martial arts is introducing it to new people. Friendly faces get more butts on the mat than brutal concussions.

[@secretagent4610]

This video is one thousand percent accurate. Dude broke it down to a science. Trying to find the right fit has been very difficult for me.

[@FigureOnAStick]

Coming from a HEMA background, the experimental archaeologist is a pretty accurate description of my home gym, but in my experience there is a much greater variety of goal and process orientation. One of the former gyms that I trained at were basically an authoritarian rough and tumble gym with swords and another a laid back fight club. I'll definitely start scouting out for laid-back mma gyms at which I can experiment

[@danidsds]

Your insights into martial arts theory are very... well, insightful. Great video as always. Thanks! I personally run a somewhat authoritarian/results oriented class, since they're all kids/beginners. I'm after results and they don't know anything, so they need to do what I tell them to do. But at the same time, they're kids so being too strict / tough on them will scare them away. However, the more students progress, I think the more liberal+results oriented classes are better. More advanced students start forming their own styles/ideas on fighting, and I see it in myself too. While I'm very open minded and looking to "steal" knowledge from every source I can find, I find it pretty difficult to just sit there and listen to stuff I know by heart while pretending it's some new, incredible piece of information that never crossed my mind in the past 12 years of training, just so I don't hurt the instructor's ego.

[@kaoskronostyche9939]

Hello Mr Violence. Nice to see you again. Great discussion. Thank you.

[@YesNo-xi5zg]

Never been to a gym, never plan to, still love your videos

[@Buphido]

The only extreme stereotype missing from this list is the dead center. Though I do not have enough gym experience to describe what that would look like.

[@michelemalbano]

I've just found out I am in a fight club!

[@W4veMan]

The descriptions of different gym cultures had me in stitches on how accurate they are🤣🤣

[@iustwanttotalk]

I will say that a lot of gyms including my own will fall on different places on that chart depending on what class is running even with the same instructor (As long as they are good) For example I attend 2 regular class types taught by the same instructor. One is a traditional patterns and culture focused class that is very regimented and Authoritarian but the second is a very level playing field functional sparring class type. We have some people that only attend either type and some like me that attend both, and again as long as the instructor is good then this is a very nice way of doing things.

[@techjblue]

I'm in a (largely) authoritarian dominated art but run a fairly laid back gym. Leading to my students being decently talented hobbyists. I get comments from other instructors saying your students don't look anything like traditional martial arts, more like kick boxing students. I've never received a better compliment in my life.

[@KINGSTUNAX]

I always loved the open style gyms over the authoritative one because you get the chance to discuss with the teacher the moves. Communication is at its best as you can cross question. While training you will have get proper response from the instructor. 😊it was the best experience i ever had as lesson are still in my mind like concrete.

[@nathanbarry9534]

The weird thing to me is within an organization you can even have different cultures. When I was a kid I’d sometimes do makeup classes at another affiliated gym, and they were much more tradition oriented, where my home gym had the bowing to the flag but sparring was always freeform and about effectiveness rather than points. We always lost at the point tournaments, but unlike the other schools could actually fight (by the standards of middle school kids)

[@strongwiseandfree]

My gym is very results oriented, but also laid back when it comes to everything else. We train hard and play hard.

[@Alpha-up3mo]

best kind there is

[@PhilosopicalWolf1998]

I know you did a video on wrestling being the best martial art for self-defence/fighting, but could you do a martial arts tier-list like every other martial arts KZbinr lol

[@ArmchairViolence]

I don't want to, mainly because every one else has already done it, and I would need something meaningful to add to the conversation.

[@PhilosopicalWolf1998]

@@ArmchairViolence Fair...what about strenght and conditioning for martial arts...the old Size and Skill debate...just some ideas I have for vids. What kind of strenght and conditioning is best...powerlifting weightlifting strongman bodybuilding calisthenics ect With the Size vs Skill...is there like an optiom weight difference before someone is to big for you to fight...even if your a ufc champion/better wrestler ect.

[@TheMightyMcClaw]

This video made me nostalgic for for Groundcore MMA in Kyoto, which is my personal Gold Standard of results-oriented libertarian gyms. Every person I sparred with was the weirdest person I had ever fought, in a completely different way. There was the old guy who only moved forward. There was the guy who start from way out of range and then rush and out like he was doing a hit and run. The guy who mostly threw flying head kicks. The pro fighter who, I swear to god, fought in slow motion like he was doing Tai Chi. And most of them were also very, very good at implementing their wild ass strategies.

[@vincent-antoinesoucy1872]

This is such a caricature, and it is also so true on so many level.

[@macmurfy2jka]

My gym was pretty centrist, but I will say that it did have a number of way to cater to different customers. They did so by having Teams. Competition, teams for example, created their own sub cultures that existed within a more generalist gym structure. Additionally the culture can also shift as member becomes more experienced, allowing more experimentation and colaberation, for instance, when students begin to become near piers to the instructors.

[@David.R.D]

Sweet, sweet engagement

[@heresjonny666]

I feel like your understanding of HEMA is informed almost solely by what you come across on KZbin and the internet in general. These are the sorts of places you're more likely to run into that 'nerd HEMA', because the clubs that focus on winning tournaments and being athletes don't tend to spend their time posting videos or talking about HEMA online. There are a TON of clubs that are focused on competing. I would hazard a guess that they outnumber the more 'nerdy' clubs in fact at this point, and that seems to be the direction HEMA in general is heading in.

[@BnR1038]

most high quality martial arts channel out there bro! that clip of the dagis on DC had me dying

[@skepticon9390]

Having seen enough of this well-spoken host, I appreciate his ability to associate gym culture with political culture. That he protests employing such subterfuge is a credit to his ability to craft relevant analogies while simultaneously establishing plausible deniability.

[@justinAclark2075]

I generally go to gyms that churn out well mannered hulks

[@stefanpfau6049]

I was at a MMA gym where they had classes where you could choose the topic as long as you could find someone in the class who wants to do the same stuff, the instructor then would go around an give advice to every group. Best format till now. Could stitch together a gameplan according to my preferences. They also tould basics in different classes which I also attended.

[@belliumm]

As a member of a laid back gym I can confirm there are a lot of people that like anime and weed. Sometimes I wish it was more like the rough and tumble gym so I could roll at greater intensity but I think the laid back nature makes it easier to not get discouraged and stay consistent.

[@Abettergrappler]

Never got the whole professor piece. When people say that i correct them and say "Call me coach or my name. I don't have a PhD". The best gym IMO (and what i strive for) combines a bit of them all. I want people to ask questions, learn their own styles and develop at what rate they want. But I also know what they need to work on and if they're only trying instagram moves then there will be some authority directed their way. If you're 50 then no, you dont need to compete. But you should still practice and drill hard so that you can be effective with moves. It's all a balancing act.

[@andrewd6438]

A bit semantic, but you don't need a PhD to be a professor. Professor is simply a job title, I've even had a few professors in engineering that only have a masters. PhD is just a prerequisite for the title "Dr."

[@Abettergrappler]

@@andrewd6438 True, but I've literally heard someone say "a black belt takes 10 years so we call you a professor because you now have a PhD in Jiu jitsu" lol

[@ArmchairViolence]

@@Abettergrappler Ask them if they've been doing BJJ full-time for those 10 years lol. Although, even if they have, it's still not the same. You can't flunk out of BJJ. You don't have to apply to selective BJJ programs just to get the chance to earn your next belt. BJJ schools don't have to be nationally accredited. You don't have to innovate new moves and strategies to get your black belt (PhD thesis paper). There's not even an agreed upon standard by which belt promotions happen. A lot of people become black belts by showing up for long enough. That's not how academia works. I've met black belts that can't even explain what moves they're using. I've never met a math professor that can't explain what formula they're using. Or a philosophy professor which school of thought they're applying. That would be insane. If black belts "have a PhD in BJJ," then I have have a PhD in dentistry, because I've been brushing my teeth for decades!

[@Abettergrappler]

@@ArmchairViolence You literally went point for point on my rebuttal to them! I would love for there to be a standardize process for a black belt. Kinda like you have X amount of tournaments you can try to earn one each year. A black belt is a dime a dozen now a days. Which is why I stick to my wrestling roots and disregard belt color. Skill acquisition and effectiveness should be the measuring stick anyways.

[@raindio7169]

I've been going to rockbox recently. There's no actual sparring or fighting, but they still have us go hard on the punching bags, and switch up combos to keep us on our toes (not to mention the regular exercise portions of each class - which is painful but conditions you *very* fast). I want to switch to proper mma fighting eventually, but these non-combat martial arts-inspired gyms are really great for beginners, were you can start learning some moves and techniques, and get yourself trained up for a real MMA class, without worrying too much about the nitty gritty combat off the bat.

[@darrinperkins1270]

I’ve only trained at one gym. I’d say more results oriented, and more towards casual. Lots of fighters and bjj competitors. I love it!! Moving out of state and looking for a comparable gym.

[@thothtahuti5509]

Another brilliant video, 1 critique... more content please 😊 I've watched everything many times and the more the better!

[@Banished-rx4ol]

I think a little mix of everything(aside from a cult) is best but a authoritarian gym is a good starting point to hammer in discipline, fitness, and a baseline of skills. Once the base is done go to a more freeform gym

[@tlb963]

I would describe my experience as laidback fight club, but I have also trained in an official gym or two. The primary one was a BJJ gym that I'd describe as mostly laid back, especially when the free rolling started, I left more because of the coach's lax attitude on how much brain trauma was allowed in MMA sparring once that class started.

[@hypnoticskull6342]

My gym is more of a laid back gym. It's small, classes are almost everyday, everyone is super chill with each other, and hell, last night, the gym watched UFC 300 together. But the training is definitely hard if you wanna compete. A bunch of medals and trophies on the wall

[@TITANia69420]

Started Martial Arts at like Highschool with a Taekwondo Extracurricular activity. Despite that, the Sabeum was REALLY chill, and we enjoyed joking around while practicing. Good stuff, laid back, learned to kick high, I like it. Then mom introduced me to a Muay Thai Gym that's run by her friend. She got a discount for a class/session, introduced me to a class, overall their target audience is as expected, Soccer Moms like my mom, with the occasional really good Kickboxers coming along. Either way, laid back gyms is definitely where I belong.

[@ChargemanBaré]

When I went to do Muay-Thai recently, the gym was extremely traditional (there was also jiu-jitsu so there was a photo of Hélio Gracie where we had to do "oss") and very open-minded (thankfully because I hate rigorous gym) but on the other hand, I literally had to do the ram-muay and the wai kru and the strangest thing was that when I was going to kick I had to make those Very cringe screams but everyone made those screams and I had to abandon which was a shame because I could use some kung-fu moves without the teacher bothering me but he had that very traditionalist Thai view to the extreme, and I still greet Hélio Gracie at the entrance and exit even to go to the bathroom

[@harrisonbloom816]

I used to go a fairly laid back BJJ school. I like the people there and had a lot of fun but I ultimately left it because I felt like my training was just too aimless. Now I go to a place that kind of edges into the rough and tumble end of the spectrum with a slight authoritarian edge and I think I’ve made a lot more progress because of it. It just suits me better

[@superdkls]

I never thought about framing it like this and it made me realize I went to a very authoritarian gym the other week, first class the guy went through the rules and one was “no talking” lol …. I won’t be back

[@facruas]

The gym that I own goes between The Experimental Archeologists (for my older or casual clients) and The Fight Club (for the psychos).

[@ronin836]

My shotokan karate schools tended to be very authoritarian process-oriented, and were culty. Personally would not recommend for the reasons you provided. Great video! Love your content and personality!

[@justinAclark2075]

Great video, man. Excellent in every sense.

[@ricardoaquino6708]

Yeah... Rough & Tumble, Laid Back, Authoritarian and Fight Club hahaha Those are the ones I've been to.

[@emperortime4380]

Nine minutes in and you already broke the first rule of fight club.

[@mariodothings9999]

Lol

[@ChargemanBaré]

A very good movie by the way

[@Stephane-au-fil-de-la-vie1266]

ok once again you engaged my attention I must say that I have been contemplating coming back to combat sports for a while being inexperienced at striking I'd like to earn some. I was a judoka when I was younger with some experience as a competitor. I am in my fifties now but I am fitter than I was when I was young but then again. I am older. Having a spectrum laid out akin to the political one is helpful for the choice of gym or dojo. I guess this time around it's going to be a gym and again thank you for your content.

[@9the3greatdivide]

The production looks like the camera is from like 2006 but like a really good camera from 2006 lol otherwise I enjoy these. I didn’t mean it as a pejorative.

[@ianbrewster8934]

Interestingly I knew a gym that had was a large gym that taught different styles from different instructors. And you can find pretty much all of these gyms under this one large gym. Somehow it worked. The owner of the gym had a lot of money and he hired a bunch of people to teach different things so they all have their own way of teaching and he didn't really care. It was all about bringing in as many bodies as possible. He figured if I had like 12 different martial arts being caught here I could attract everybody. To be fair it worked for a while....

[@jomess7879]

I've been kicked out of two gyms. Both were authoritarian. Both claimed to be results orientated, as long as you did exactly what they said. I told them both that I wanted to become to an instructor and had no intentions of strictly adhering to their curriculum or their way of doing things. Shortly after I got kicked out. I'm at a new gym that's way more libertarian and results focused. I told that I wanted to be an instructor and wasn't likely going to strictly adhere to his way of doing things and he shrugged and said ok

[@olemanshavadoo7893]

Yup. Oom Yung Doe (not a typo). Process oriented and “Grandmaster” Kim was basically Jesus having supposedly done miraculous things like jumping off a building and doing a jumping side kick over and over to float to the ground like a feather.

[@SayaBanjet]

Thank you for another great video, I have a martial arts channel in spanish since I am from Mexico. I feel your content is very similar to mine. Yours being so much pro of course. I will talk about what I learn from your last two videos in my channel and hopefully make some mexicans look your way.

[@u45.-]

I agree alot I first trained at an mma gym in Chattanooga Tennessee it sucked because all the so called bjj guys and wrestler meatheads . I only trained there all together roughly 4 to 6 months. I have since trained at an actual gracie jj gym I was there for almost a year and a half since then I've went to a judo gym but they have jujutsu ppl come in 3 times weekly. I've been there at the judo dojo for 11 months I love the throws and I like learning the Japanese names. It's good because we also do newaza side note sensai kevin loves anime. I haven't totally abandoned my gracie jujutsu coach I do personal training sessions sometimes

[@ArmchairViolence]

Bro, which gym in Chattanooga??

[@allstarwoo4]

My gym is kind of a good mixture of everything or structured in stages and I like that. You get warm up and conditioning first. Technical part of the class where you do specific techniques and drill it. And then you have sparring towards the end.

[@BecozPro]

This made me think of another topic I'd love to see you cover; there's been a recent "wave" in BJJ about ecological learning, basically a debate between drilling specific moves and using games that always include live resistance to work those details out on your own. Would love to hear your thoughts on how much aliveness is the right amount? No aliveness ever means no sparring which I think for results oriented styles we can agree is bad, but is it false extrapolation that more aliveness = better results?

[@ArmchairViolence]

I think it partially depends on your experience level. However, I tend to favor aliveness. Drills can be helpful, but only when there is a gradual increase in resistance. Doing a drill 1000 times with absolutely no aliveness is a giant waste of time. More advanced people are also going to benefit from alive games a lot more than beginners. At a certain level, you think less about moves and more about concepts. That's the point at which drilling starts becoming a lot less important. However, I do have a problem with a lot of the games, because they are all simply a competition with a weirdly specific rule set. And those rule sets can often encourage bad behavior and create training scars that carry over into actual fighting. If you're going to have those kind of alive games, I think you need to constantly use different ones. That will encourage problem solving and more conceptual thinking while reducing the likelihood of developing specific training scars.

[@Swordsman_HEMMA]

IMO, the problem with the ecological model is that it's being misunderstood and applied wrong by people who aren't the best pitchmen. Some of the most vocal advocates for the ecological model are wildly abrasive and dogmatic, bordering on cult-like, which is turning a lot of people away from a solid educational style. Really, it shouldn't be all-or-nothing. Ecological learning should be just one tool in your toolbox, to be used alongside traditional learning and live sparring. A good classroom should be an even distribution between traditional drilling (with varying levels of aliveness depending on technique familiarity), ecological learning, and full-resistance sparring.

[@sarimnerhistoricaleuropean5242]

We mostly do sparring. No authority really, I lead practice but mostly because no one else wants to.😂 we are however raging nerds and like our sparring to at least look a bit like the pictures in the manuals. 🙃 thinking where we would end up on this scale. We do ok in competitions as well, despite being a bit old on average.

[@dacedebeer2697]

Great summary, I started in a traditional gym that was very focused in actual fighting, from that I went into the roughest tumble of a gym, where I got injured badly. Then I started a fight club that went on for about 10 years. Now I have been training again for the past 5 years in a mostly laid back gym. ( I absolutely fall into the laid back stereotype lol). At each stage I was looking for a different thing. When I was first training I was focused on self defense, nowadays I rather take a punch and walk that having to go through the legal hassle of hitting someone back. I like to spar much lighter than what I used to, mostly in it for the fun, but I also started competing every now and then which I never did when I was training for self defense (I miss the chaos of street fighting, but again, rather have the consensual experience).

[@jlbrlb90]

Glad to see you again.

[@fredeuhrbrand3789]

Spot on. This will help me tell the otherwise nice people I've trained with why I'm not coming back to their autoritative gym :-)

[@CaPnBaLlBaG]

Most places I’ve trained have had a mix of these depending on which classes you’re going to and who’s teaching. I kinda love going between the rigid, rough and tumble comp classes and the loosey goosey all-sparring classes where it’s mostly peer teaching.

[@sammyli9456]

Beginning at 14, I chose to learn a traditional style like karate, and found that it helped me understand how to correctly use the force. I think it is the fundamental for any new comer to start with any traditional style which confers upon a practitioner the basic line of force important to develop fighting skills in the future. No matter how big one is or how much muscle the one has, launching punches and kicks with the correct force line is the most important, since it generates the most efficient power and further the practitioner does not get exhausted easily. By the way, now I am almost 50, I just want to do the martial art for fitness.

[@na-ky8ou]

What if he has a lot of strength and throw the punch or the kick correctly?

[@sammyli9456]

@@na-ky8ou ...Absolutely, he will have advantage over the opponent; but another important element of being a good fighter is footwork. Strength plus good force line of launching attacks will be null without the superior footwork than the opponent; or otherwise the opponent can dodge , while he will be counterattacked easily.

[@na-ky8ou]

@@sammyli9456 OK, so we've now established that strength matters. Since physical strength helps someone to generate power, which is what makes a punch or a kick efficient, is it that far fetched to think that a stronger dude will compensate his lack of technique with his strength; or in other words, that he will, at least, generate the same force as someone less strong but more technical? I don't know why you're bringing footwork up, my question was strictly about strength.

[@sammyli9456]

@@na-ky8ou ... I raised the issue of footwork by forgetting to mention that it also supports the 'force line' of launching the attack. Traditional karate teaches us to step forward at the same time we are punching as the basic step we have to practice everyday. Combination of doing that generates the basic footwork that reinforces each punch; or makes it much stronger than a single punch without stepping forward. - The body strength without fluid footwork to support the force line is not enough to create the strongest attack being launched. - Timing of footwork must be harmonious with the attack launched to create the highest quality of attacking the target. - In addition, we don't have to use much muscle force when punching, kicking, knee/elbow launching with the correct force line and the support by our footwork. Then, we don't get exhausted easily; once we have accomplished the force line with fluid footwork. - Try by yourself to prove my words that footwork is important. (I mean it is as important as or maybe more important than the body strength.)

[@na-ky8ou]

@@sammyli9456 You haven't answered my question.

[@Keeganbrian70]

Great timing , I am a dod contractor so move a lot in this case I just moved from Hawaii to Romania. I am checking out a judo gym tomorrow after mostly being TKD or kick boxing , boxing

[@connordarvall8482]

My old kickboxing instructor was so libertarian that he didn't even allow people to call him sensei. He insisted that he was just a senior student because he learns just as much from training us. One of the side effects is that he claims the title senpai (He is over 50, does not watch anime and considers it an unreasonably limiting art form) Also, doesn't quite fit on the process/results axis as he'd mix in any martial art, but would focus more on the student's personal improvement. Gradings were assessed based on whether the student was at their best self or not. Though, he'd make lesson plans and use a sparring session at the end of each lesson to see what the students have learned as well as their strengths and weaknesses. 8:56 Also, I'm called out here. We started adding in HEMA to the mix and even went to a different dojo to learn it. Since then, I have despised how D&D handles melee combat. Not because of its inaccuracy, but because all HEMA is more beautiful than D&D's interpretation of martial arts, both eastern and western.

[@miqvPL]

Getting a bit of everything. In my boxing gym I took some group classes which were results oriented, zero on the authoritarian/libertarian scale since the instructor was just walking around correcting basics and praising individual approach. Similar for my individual classes, although even more results oriented as I was pushed to the limit. My taekwondo dojang is very authoritarian and procedure oriented but not in a cult way, more like "shut up and keep training, it's not the break yet", you get punished with pushups for slacking off. It's a good workout but since sparrings are rare- it's not really teaching us how to fight. But we kick a lot, and since I've been in 2 other karate dojos comparisons are absurd, we're kicking 10 times more on average than karatekas do, which is quite exhausting. My judo dojo is almost exactly on the middle of the scale. We train technique but at the end we spar properly, we get encouraged to try techniques we learned that day but it's most often extremely hard and we stick to the basics we drilled harder than anything new. There is a sensei but he's an older grandpa-sweet man who doesn't push us hard outside the sparring time. If I was training "what I like" then I wouldn't train at all, I'm a lazy fuck and I already forgot what the hell am I training 5 times/week for.

[@LouisRosasGuyon]

I had my children in a martial arts school that ended up being a cult. During a promotion ceremony, the Teacher went on a long rant about how his Disciples (he actually used the word) must obey him above anyone, including their spouse, parents, or family. We never went back, and I encouraged several parents to leave too. That's insane nonsense, and it drives me crazy his school is still open.

[@na-ky8ou]

"Obey me more than anyone else" sounds like what a groomer would say...

[@WolframtheBlessed3499]

Very insightful video. Thank you.

[@MrTudorvidor]

A wise summary of the topic, fenxalot! I could add only one point: .

[@joh_kun5530]

Most gyms over here happen to be on the laid back side from what I can tell... Sure if you go ahead and grab yourself a coach, you have to respect what he says and follow. But that's probably only for the beginning. Now I'm not sure about the more traditional ones like Taekwondo or Karate but they seem to be more on the laid back side as well.

[@garynaccarato4606]

I'm not saying that you should start full on full blown fight club style gym and I'm not saying that there aren't any major potential draw backs in terms of safety but I think that one theoretical plus is in situations in which people are poor, don't want to spend money want to have some fun and that you don't have any certified instructors, trained professional or people who fully know what they are doing available.Martial arts in large unlike other sports doesn't really tend to have much of anything equivalent to a bunch of people just getting together and doing a pick up game.(but that's sort of because martial arts are somewhat more dangerous then other sports which more often tend to have pick up games)I also sort of believe that in a way because of the fact that we don't have bunch of random people simply just experimenting as opposed to becoming professional or joining a formal dojo this sort of contributes to alot of people assuming that the process oriented martial arts approach to learning how to fight actually works in a high pressure situations I think that if you actually had to fight in some sort of informal dojo or fight club and that if it was actually a more socially acceptable thing to do in the martial arts world more people will start finding out that certain martial arts styles/forms/training methods simply don't have a high probability of working in a realistic fight with realistic pressure.

[@anti1training]

Well my coach taught different arts. So the teaching styles always varied with each art

[@farkasmactavish]

Also, I will say that most HEMA gyms I've interacted with (mostly online) _are_ primarily concerned with doing the techniques as they were done in period...but only if they prove that they work. And most of the advanced techniques, e.g. Meyer's "master cuts", don't get used in sparring as much, simply because the easier ones...are easier to default to.

[@connordarvall8482]

When I was doing sword work, I actually found that the master cuts were used frequently, particularly krumphau, zwerchau and zornhau (literally just a more vertical ober) Admittedly, Scheidelhau is hard to pull off, but you may add it to your routine if your opponent won't stop going into alber to annoy you. Then again, I was taught in an unarmoured style.

[@ThatFreeWilliam]

Ah, so I need a laid back fight club! Those keywords should work perfectly.

[@ryanbaker5931]

I agree with the general idea but disagree that these styles can't coexist. I've seen laid-back gyms that have competition classes which are much more intense and results driven. Can't be the same class but can coexist in the same school

[@kevinjung6130]

I'm glad you don't look like a vampire anymore. White balance matters!

[@ArmchairViolence]

Jokes on you, I look like a vampire in real life!😂

[@bjornnilsson1827]

​@@ArmchairViolence I don't recall ever having seen you in a video in direct natural sunlight. Coincidence, I think NOT! 😂

[@ArmchairViolence]

@@bjornnilsson1827 I literally cannot endure direct sunlight for long enough to film a video. 🤣 Whenever I work outside, I require both sunscreen and a sun hat. Which would look ridiculous on camera!

[@bjornnilsson1827]

@ArmchairViolence Maybe you're a "mixed race" vampire, and you just don't know it? How are you with garlic, crucifixes, and reflections in the mirror? Stake through the hart is not a valid test, because technically it also works quite well on regular humans.🤓😀😎

[@ArmchairViolence]

@@bjornnilsson1827 See, I love garlic, so it doesn't make any sense! And I clearly show up on a camera!

[@IneedCoffe43]

I gotta go to the laid back gym to get some wee- I mean Fighting experience

[@SwordAndWaistcoat]

Really interesting to consider this from a HEMA perspective since the same model could be applied to fencing schools historically to understand their culture and get a better sense of the types of fighters it would have produced.

[@ArmchairViolence]

The downside is that it's very hard to determine the culture of a school you've never been to without a good amount of firsthand testimonials.

[@SwordAndWaistcoat]

I mean, depending on the period we would have those, but I'd also be interested in what we can glean from other documents like codes of conduct or sparring rules since that would also help create a model for assessing contemporary clubs without needing to go there.

[@EresirThe1st]

Lol I want parts of all of them. I want a teacher who knows his shit inside out and makes it easy to start, at the same time I want to be able to take things in new directions during sparring if it feels right. I want to practice techniques that are appropriate for real combat and not sports or reenactment, at the same time I don't want a gym that's trying to break me with workouts and injuries - I'm not trying to be an olympian.

[@kyussbrooker1774]

I have found that my gym structure is dependent on who is teaching. One falls into that insicapidic, Another has the champion minds set, Im way layed back and dont care much about rank just about functional skills, experimentation and having fun. So in a way depending on whom is teaching the gym structure changes. Being an instructor does give me freedom but the authoratarian side karate keeps us all restricted to a point.

[@GaryChurch-hi8kb]

Never liked gyms. Always a couple creeps looking to dominate and get their gratification. I always went back to punching a heavy bag and carrying a very sharp knife. It has worked for me for 40 years. I just wish I had an aqua-bag back in the 80's. That thing makes heavy bag workouts awesome. After you learn how to punch and start punching hard, the big problem is not hurting your hands.

[@HEMA_Fight_Breakdowns]

Small nitpick but it seems like your x-axis unintentionally came off as "good fighters" on the left and "bad fighters" on the right. Considering your other good video on properly using processes and flowcharts to properly train to fight as well as putting them into practice in sparring scenarios it seems like these two extremes can actually coexist (unlike the Y axis). Perhaps safety would have been a better descriptor for the X axis since its much more relevant to the extreme examples (mayweather meatgrinder vs children's karate) and it wouldn't imply that "getting hurt" was any more productive than "never pushing your limits". also you are 100% right about HEMA clubs

[@ArmchairViolence]

The x-axis is more about differences in priorities. It ties back to this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/q4mXmJ-cmquqsNEsi=KblMJwlbJmrcN6VI Process-oriented people might be able to fight, but that's almost just a coincidence. Process-oriented arts don't actually care about your ability to fight. They care about your process.

[@HEMA_Fight_Breakdowns]

@@ArmchairViolence that definitely makes sense but I'm still wondering how this video fits in. Maybe I'm wrong but this seems like a "results oriented process" that breaks the oppositional mold an axis implies. I wouldn't really know where on the chart a gym that used the strategies in this video would fall kzbin.info/www/bejne/jqeUnZqwr7t5jqMsi=qd1NnchQSjzCrMx_

[@farkasmactavish]

I'd say he's 70% right about HEMA clubs. Most I've interaced with are concerned with doing the techniques historically _in a way that works._

[@HEMA_Fight_Breakdowns]

@@farkasmactavish true but I think the point of using HEMA clubs as emblematic of that bottom right extreme was still accurate. Just like most boxing gyms aren't Mayweather meat grinders, it still serves as a perfect example of that extreme

[@ArmchairViolence]

Yeah, not all HEMA clubs are that bad. But the ones that ARE way in that corner are disproportionately HEMA clubs lol

[@NoviusInfernalBerserk]

The "fight club" gym sounds fun.

[@nosleepdelirium1214]

it become more and more apparent which side of the culture opinion he was on 🤣 Even though I am naturally inclined to the same sort of sarcastic anti authoritarian attitude, I have learned in my life that there is a very important place for an authoritarian teacher and for being that little soldier that gets no say in anything. It is important, especially for kids to lean discipline, and to learn that not everything in life is about what I as an individual wants. It is important to learn how to show respect and listen and to maintain ones own opinion and self respect but not always externally.

[@theshadowking3198]

This is true I hated karate but at a different dojo I enjoyed it never doing it again tho

[@RaulRodriguez-fw1qw]

This was extremely interesting as usual! It makes me wonder though, it's not necessary that all result oriented gyms actually produce results, right? I mean, I have worked with some instructors who could not win nor train anyone to win any fight, and wouldn't be exactly capable at explaining how a technique works either... 😅

[@liquidketamine8562]

7:28 Bro really said that Canelo, one of the most constantly innovative and improved fighters, trains at a Fighter Mill.

[@na-ky8ou]

The way Canelo is ≠ the place he trains at

[@ussgordoncaptain]

2:35 woah woah woah we don't practice the inside heel hook we saw on instagram we practice the move we saw on a Danaher instructional or in ADCC

[@CrystaTiBoha]

Being in a cult (bujinkan) for years might have been one of the top 4 things I've done in life, not gonna lie. 😂 It led to me moving to Japan and also becoming religious.

[@josephlucas4024]

I don't think adhering to tradition automatically means the martial art is ineffective. For example, there are many schools of koryu arts that are extremely effective in armor, but lose their effectiveness when that context is taken away. A better way to put it is that the martial art is more astetics based. These martial arts are rarely practical and have a strict adherance to how the technique is taught.

[@TheYouTubeMechanic]

I will just show the instructor this video and ask him to pick his style.

[@tearsintherain6311]

My gym is not that laid back but it does appeal to several demographics and they wont treat competitors laid back but also wont be disciplinary towards soccer moms The weed and anime thing is 10000% spot on 😂

[@salvadorromero9712]

Sign me up I wanna smoke weed and watch anime with the soccer moms

[@garynaccarato4606]

As far as the experimental archaeologist style gyms I would say that Hema certainly fits into this category alot of the time and I would say that to some extent many Ninjitsu gyms are like in the sense that it kind just seems like cosplaying boffer and larping however alot of the Ninjitsu stuff is sort of more like pseudo history and it doesn't necessarily present anybody a realistic picture of what a ninja historically looked like because even though knowing how to fight might help you as a ninja and many ninja did in fact actually know how to fight a lot of being a Ninja sort of just primarily involved spy work as well as esponiage and some stuff involving sabotage as opposed to assassination or any form of real fighting and alot of time teaching people how to be like a real ninja would just be boring and would not really sell that well.Alot of real actual Ninjitsu skills would not have really encompassed much if any real fighting or hand to hand combat. most ninja who knew martial arts would have primarily practiced the same martial arts that many other martial artists were already practicing at the time (but those ninja were kind of the exception and not the rule)